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Originally Posted by DkKoba 1674616880 (#263)

i dont like the setup but im too high to point it out

my overall thoughts is that open format is just not very good for larger setups and that no matter what you do, the nature of claims being inherently either a forced CC if mafia choose to claim or if its a semi open you get into the territory pointed out before of a lot of bad variance in setup balance.


tl;dr larger setups suck as opens

too high to point out exactly how ***

i dont like the setup but im too high to point it out

my overall thoughts is that open format is just not very good for larger setups and that no matter what you do, the nature of claims being inherently either a forced CC if mafia choose to claim or if its a semi open you get into the territory pointed out before of a lot of bad variance in setup balance.


tl;dr larger setups suck as opens

Originally Posted by JohnCarter 1674429727 (#639)

Best Scum/3p Performance - Group (Mash)
Harry Potter Mash (by Alexa and Neopest)
I'd taken a number of breaks from participating in mashes over the years due to timezone reasons, etc., but this mash wolf team was truly enjoyable, and I found everyone was willing to pitch in. You often see a few more individualiistic approaches in a team this size, but, everyone in this team seemed to be playing for a group win. Good comraderie and jokes, which helped later wolves keep their WIM up against a great town. Maybe I missed out on some other good wolf team noms though, so, nom others for this category!

Am I allowed to 2nd if I was part of the team?

Because 2nd,assuming it is allowed since you were also part of said team.

Lots of varying thoughts and active contribution with multiple players trading with town in great ways.

Thanks for the nom pizza

should start on evens if theres a possibility of extra KP

uh idk why rewarding mafia with removing a miselimination for killing PRs is a good thing whats the purpose of letting that happen

Originally Posted by Amrock 1673575184 (#199)

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...he-Amrock-14er

This seems like a great setup that has no clear winning strategies, is adjustable to games, is simple to grasp but hard to master, is not power role focused, and yet isn’t boring as hell

disagree about boring but it is acceptable if nothing else is presented

Originally Posted by katze 1673482662 (#179)

people prob care too much about balance for champs but idk if this is it is what im tryna say

i get what u mean but also im a nerd

that setup that was suggested with the PR kills has 0 town power effectively and the PRs are negative utility because theyre just fodder for mafia to get extra kills which makes it even less balanced than mountainous 15p.

no effective way to claim results or really utilize power - the poison is liklier to hit a 2nd townie and accelerate the game

amrock 14 is the only remotely viable setup proposed so far IMO

Originally Posted by marmot 1673410948 (#137)

How about a matrix?

lmao

if we're being forced to do an open setup I am going back to my suggestion of a global mechanic that is interactable with rather than having PRs.

Something such as Coalition, for example. Or a role draft/pick your power type setup if you want PRs.

Either having no PRs or no *obviously clear* PRs.


All Semi Opens have the flaw where its really just X number of open setups possible with the setup being made clear when massclaim happens - and usually are just "balanced" by having certain randable setups being scumsided and certain being townsided. I guarantee you cannot give me a semi open that does not operate on this principle.


(While closed has none of those inherent issues and requires more thoughts when PRs claim, some may be obvious but others not so much lol)


but hey bucket strat here we go!

semi opens will make PRs uneliminatable + shift power to them while in a closed you can make an argument against them

Dunno idk maybe I just haven't played enough mafia to evaluate or something

Originally Posted by Arapocalypse 1672552118 (#58)

Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk 1672504715 (#4)

unique curated v++ closed setups

This is something that has been proposed multiple times and isn’t really anything new, but I’ll go over it anyways.

One thing that’s been brought up over and over again is that Champs setups lack diversity. We’re generally stuck with low power open/semi-open setups and after many, many seasons of this, people have kinda just gotten bored. (Mad17 is the notable exception, but even that was incredibly watered down and the end result didn’t really fulfill a lot of what it was originally designed to do.) I personally don’t think opens/v++ semi-opens are inherently bad - they’re simple, easy to understand, and generally pretty easy to balance - but a change would still be welcome. v++ closed setups imo would be a step in the right direction imo, they should still be relatively easy to balance and it’s also aided by the fact that the roleset is limited to what is in modbot (plus some additional restrictions like no alignment peeking role etc etc), which should still make it new-player-friendly. They will also be unique every game which should add some much needed diversity that’s been called out for and most importantly, it’s different.

I don’t really think there are any major valid criticisms of the format either and from what I’ve gathered most of it is just an uncomfortableness with major change in general.

There’s also a few minor benefits, like allowing more people to shine mechanically (as closed inherently allows for more PRs which in turn gives more players the opportunity to display mechanical skill). Among the same line is also that VTs can do the same sort of thing via FPS, though I’m pretty conflicted on if that’s going to end up being a good or bad thing (only one way to find out haha). It stops PR claims from being automatic ICs which is a minor problem with open/semi-open setups as it functionally is bad for similar reasons to why alignment peeks are bad. It allows balance to be adjusted from quals to semis to final, which is actually something that many players have indicated they’d like. Etc.

And, just to be clear, when I say “curate,” it means that they’ll be made by a select group of qualified individuals so there shouldn’t really be a problem with balance or anything of the sort.

A major valid criticism is that a closed setup disadvantages everyone not familiar with MU- specific stuff (which is the majority of people who play iin champs) even with a list of roles, where those familiar would have the advantage of more realistic fakeclaiims/being able to call out obviously fake fakeclaimis from people who wouldn't know that/more accurately be able to predict the setup/similar issues!!!! Since all setups would end up being reviewed/go through someone from MU, then yes they would all have those issues!!

There's also a few other minor issues with closed setups, but the above disadvantages would have to be solved first before I'd want to get into discussing those any further!

I do agree that the benefits of having more mechanical play would be rather nice to have; that being said, currently I see stuff like semi-open matrix setups being more likely to increase mechanical play while not having the above drawbacks!!!

This is easily remedied by crafting and providing a resource for people to help with fakeclaims. Someone's lack of scumplay won't be solved however by an open setup

Originally Posted by Arapocalypse 1673342910 (#115)

Going to say now that we won't be going with closed setups this year!! There are too many issues with it (a few of which I mentioned earlier in this thread) that have not been resolved; if you want to try and get your setup into champs currently, I'd suggest a semi-open setup!

Who decided this? What is the reason closed are worse than open?
Semi- Open has flaws too.
Is this because of lack of time?

Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk 1673152639 (#108)

nah I think 1 designer per setup is good and frankly 2 designers for an automated closed setup is just straight up unnecessary + possibly restricting for both of them

we want to prevent as much as possible any possibility of an unabalanced/broken setup

the only aspect of champs i felt handicapped by was the postcap and that didnt stop me

a good mafia player, and perhaps one that is truly passionate about exploring mafia, is going to have experience with at least each type of setup out there



rewarding experience isn't so bad


also can we perhaps look to recruit setup designers and reviewers now just in case closed setups wins out

I personally suggest 2 designers per setup, 2-3 reviewers per setup

yeaa boy

Originally Posted by Arctic 1673133421 (#6734)

Originally Posted by DkKoba 1673131557 (#6733)

my best scumgames involved me being suspected by multiple alive townies and not needing to kill them because I knew they didn't ever have the votes.
being caught means nothing if they ain't getting you killed
(Also shoutout cobalt qual 1 season 9)

yeah same
i don't really think it's as simple as saying a good wolf is one who is consensus townread

i think being a good wolf is based more on how you play around the villagers to cause the required miseliminations, whether that be through powerwolfing or deepwolfing doesn't really matter, it's more just about how well they actually do the thing that leads to their wincondition i.e. how convincingly they buss/spew their teammates to elevate their positions, how convincingly/successfully they can put together cases on villagers they want to miseliminate, and how well they can play for the future and work as a team. honestly i think i would rank being villagery and fooling people as less valuable than the rest of these skills

even though i think how well a wolf's approach works is more important than what approach they do take in determining how good a wolf is, i do think if i had to characterize an ideal wolf it would be a player who can win quite easily without the need to buss by simply forcing through the required MLs, because this is the most efficient way to win. and also because usually "just getting townread and letting town kill itself while you push nothing" isn't an approach that will alone lend itself to achieving this in most games simply because unless every wolf on the team can do this, then some kind of intervention will be required to stop wolves dying. that isn't to say bussing convincingly isn't a perfectly viable alternative, but i think it's much more difficult to consistently put together convincing cases on villagers than on other wolves as a wolf, and it's thus much harder to pull off time and time again while under the spotlight in comparison to carrying out a single buss + riding out the cred from just one case

if your townplay is respected enough, bussing is nearly required at some point in the game

my best scumgames involved me being suspected by multiple alive townies and not needing to kill them because I knew they didn't ever have the votes.
being caught means nothing if they ain't getting you killed
(Also shoutout cobalt qual 1 season 9)

closed setups closed setups closed setups closed setups

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy 1672698712 (#6721)

Originally Posted by DkKoba 1672698610 (#6720)

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy 1672697938 (#6716)

I am loving each and every townie in this game gracious enough to say they would have continued to guess wrong all the way up to LYLO, and no one ever mistreating them for guessing wrong in a guessing game.

I am loving how safe this postgame is for everyone to be themselves. And how it isn't a fight to prove how good or right we were.

This is the kind of game I want to have every game.

excuse me

Related to a different game where people got real mad about wrong reads and were toxic all game.

I am showing what a better example game is.

This one. This is the best game.

You did great.

People who guessed wrong did great.

Wolves who lost did great.

Postgame was nice.

Flawless.

oh wait i thought you said each and every townie said they would have been wrong and I was here like "excuse me i called for that head consistently after death too" XDD

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy 1672697938 (#6716)

I am loving each and every townie in this game gracious enough to say they would have continued to guess wrong all the way up to LYLO, and no one ever mistreating them for guessing wrong in a guessing game.

I am loving how safe this postgame is for everyone to be themselves. And how it isn't a fight to prove how good or right we were.

This is the kind of game I want to have every game.

excuse me

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy 1672604553 (#6698)

I tried mafiascum, or more to the point I made an account there.

Which I never used.

Also, I've heard.... stories. So probably not?

Feel free to contact me about these "stories", I have a generally good grasp of the goings on there atp and I can possibly see if you heard things that were complete misconceptions or assumptions.

The current moderation team there is excellent and has user safety as their priority and that's not a praise I give often.

I highly encourage at least 1 game :P

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy 1672594957 (#6696)

My schedule now prevents me from taking part in turbos, 12/12, 24/24, 48/24 or similar.

I'm going to be banished/exiled to the Light Games section where I need phase lengths of a week per cycle or longer, pretty much.

Hope to see you folks there but I completely get it if those time controls are not interesting.

Busy people's games for busy peoples schedules.


In case I don't see you folks there, this is otherwise my retirement from forum mafia in the time formats you are used to.

It's been a slice of heaven. Thanks for 14 years of awesome.

mafiascum calls

I would love to judge people playing closed setups having a lot of experience with strategy with them. Also willing to be a secondary reviewer as someone completely ineligible to participate.

Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk 1672518941 (#28)

Originally Posted by DkKoba 1672518737 (#25)

You gain an inherent advantage knowing the bounds of what setups are approved beforehand - even if you didn't design the setup you're playing in at the moment.

Could you elaborate on this?

It means that if you create a setup, and it is rejected, and you get feedback why - you now have a piece of information that informs you of what is not allowed in a setup. If there was a pool of past setups to judge by, it would be fairer, but not in this case.

You gain an inherent advantage knowing the bounds of what setups are approved beforehand - even if you didn't design the setup you're playing in at the moment.

Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk 1672518048 (#20)

I disagree with your point about watcher being a pseudo-doctor, as these are closed/semi-open/whatever I'm used to calling them closed setups - so that's not really going to do anything.

That being said, it is extremely likely to catch a wolf, even if they fakeclaim, so I still get the sentiment - though I am still of the opinion that because of the mere fact there is counterplay that it should be moved up to somewhat-viable.

No setup designer worth their salt will put in an unrestricted watcher into a setup unless the watcher is a key piece of how the setup works, and that's unlikely once you get to numbers over 9 players.

Originally Posted by neopest 1672517561 (#18)

Originally Posted by DkKoba 1672516928 (#16)

also if there's to be a vigilante - I heavily suggest restricting it to never being allowed to shoot night 1 -> that way you get less early deaths.If someone fumbles day 1 let them convert that into a good Day 2 with info and reevaluation

I also am willing to do review of setups and assist in building, although I don't have the time commitment to building myself.



Also wrt semi setup -> it should not be so complex that a townie can very easily townslip off how the rand works. The rand should be very simple. Perhaps even have players be required to repeat to a game facilitator that they understand enough of how the setup works(something I implement on setups with non standard mechanics)


And speaking of nonstandard mechanics -> There is also the path of not even thinking about semi and extra roles and adding a global mechanic.

Something such as... a role draft mechanic, or something similar is 1 idea if people really like roles.

Here is an example of something like this, it doesn't need to be this however: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php...Your_Power_X/Y

I understand something like this would require a manual element, however if it can be coded in to assign a role post rand, then the only manual part would be in setting up and then the game plays out on its own.

The idea we are talking about won't be a semi-open setup like a matrix or D6 or PYP, it would be a series of setups created by setup designers that are unique to each game but that would all utilize the same role list.

My idea here is we make a discord server for setup designers that would like to participate. Each setup designer would be assigned to create 1-2 setups from the role list provided and setup designers would be allowed to ask for feedback from other designers and setup reviewers and the setups would need to be thoroughly reviewed beforehand and then approved by Ara or whoever is in charge of champs before they are used in Champs. The setups themselves would not be revealed/known to anyone but the setup designer, setup reviewer, and Ara.

Ahhh so all closed games, but similar to the Normal format on Mafiascum I see.

Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk 1672512917 (#7)

Why aren't town day vigilantes viable?

because it removes agency from the playerlist and is not able to be countered directly once it is intended to be used.

also if there's to be a vigilante - I heavily suggest restricting it to never being allowed to shoot night 1 -> that way you get less early deaths.If someone fumbles day 1 let them convert that into a good Day 2 with info and reevaluation

I also am willing to do review of setups and assist in building, although I don't have the time commitment to building myself.



Also wrt semi setup -> it should not be so complex that a townie can very easily townslip off how the rand works. The rand should be very simple. Perhaps even have players be required to repeat to a game facilitator that they understand enough of how the setup works(something I implement on setups with non standard mechanics)


And speaking of nonstandard mechanics -> There is also the path of not even thinking about semi and extra roles and adding a global mechanic.

Something such as... a role draft mechanic, or something similar is 1 idea if people really like roles.

Here is an example of something like this, it doesn't need to be this however: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php...Your_Power_X/Y

I understand something like this would require a manual element, however if it can be coded in to assign a role post rand, then the only manual part would be in setting up and then the game plays out on its own.

wrt spectator experience, you already have hidden info with the scumchat as well as not knowing the scumteam

having an extra element to speculate ADDS hype, not reduces it.

here once again to suggest hoods :^)

caveat:

day only, night locked

that way you get the fun benefit of having a chat with someone and getting more focused discussion but don't inconvenience scum by both letting players you want to nightkill leave a legacy post dayflip as well as force them to towntell both phases. (and so the townies take a rest too!)

Originally Posted by Macdougall 1672443521 (#6646)

That Joq/Koba hydra was $%#!ing insane.

we have the perfect synergy to point out our blind spots :P

Originally Posted by Arapocalypse 1672445666 (#6650)

Congrats town, wasn't sure if you were going to get there but you did iti!!!!! Ended up being a very close game; special props to Sigma for getting to F3, where you capitalized on the deaths of your partners well there!!!

Fun wrap up to the hydra event!! Fun fact: we had 0 people copy/pasting from hydra chat this year if I'm not mistaken, which I'm fairly certain is a first for the hydra event!!

I paraphrased heavily, I tried not to copypaste since its the same level of OGI as copypasting notes you took alongside the game and claiming them as notes IMO

oh also I'M FINALLY RETIRED!!
no more forum mafia for me

ok but can we have our minifigs back @Logic

Originally Posted by Oromis and Glaedr 1671320839 (#3168)

Originally Posted by Pandaren Brewmaster 1671320819 (#3166)

I have no idea what kobas doin

Dz

im carrying

Originally Posted by Oromis and Glaedr 1671321510 (#3248)

Originally Posted by Gnomich 1671321452 (#3242)

Koba what's your Poe?

i have dragonfox/sigma atm bottom 2

confirm game 5

give me a game with pizzaguy

last spam last spam last spam last spam last spam last spam

Originally Posted by Shad 1670036347 (#2302)

Originally Posted by Wesmaster160 1670031580 (#2242)

Originally Posted by Shad 1670031453 (#2241)

Legacy reads

DK, Wes, WWH strong v

Ara, GG, Michelle, Frog should be v, less strong and/or stale

Sheep very light v

Visor, lend, TL, Cuth, Amy null/unsure

Igno is probably a wolf tbh

You too on the WWH town train?

WWH and Michelle both have an unfiltered way of expressing their thoughts that they don't replicate well because they aren't very aware of doing it, and I think I've seen it out of both of them here. I only held off on putting Michelle as high because I was incorrect on her with a very lazy snap take in a mash earlier this year and told myself I'd give her a fresh read before committing, then posting kind of didn't happen. WWH hasn't had an opportunity to make me tinfoil yet.

if michelle town its prob just one of the 3 people in my townleans gl

happy holidays and happy new years folks.

if we're lucky - I will be here next day and can reeval.

if i die, well, I have plenty of thoughts out there and having me confirmed town will be good.


i highly suggest doing a strong SoD conversation push -> doing one midyear, like idk, around champs or something when people are mostly paying attention to on site, and then again EOD. I feel that we kinda skipped the middle of the day here and it was detrimental to us. Make the most of your time if possible.

Day 4 should be a major review day too.

Good luck.

Originally Posted by Wesmaster160 1670036186 (#2294)

Originally Posted by Trustworthy Liberal 1670036070 (#2288)

Originally Posted by Wesmaster160 1670036014 (#2285)

Originally Posted by Wesmaster160 1670035827 (#2279)

So like, what's the plan here Cuth? I don't get why you're looking at whatever posts your looking at with half an hour left in the day?

Like look at igno or TL?

I guess you did say you looked at them last time you popped in. Just feels like a weird time to want to be in catch up iso mode?

God me replying to a post not at me again.

Better now then never seeing how this day phase went tbh

Yeah but like they've got the whole night to catch up and then majority of a year to talk about those thoughts. What does getting them out now serve to the game as a whole or them making a vote choice?

igno town = cuth 100% scum here.

they could easily both be scum tbh but like ... now i have alarm bells like cuth is "make sure i cant be counterwagoned last second" vibes but im leaning more - its going to be igno + cuth scum world where cuth is setting up d3 to make sure the PoE is expanded to include people who are easier to yeet due to losing interest.

i think cuth is trying to look at ways to expand the PoE btw - and is telegraphing how d3 is being pushed.

you take me out, its easier to control the narrative, etc.


I really ask to try to keep my top tier townreads off the table unless there is some smoking gun case on the slot.

Originally Posted by Wesmaster160 1670036014 (#2285)

Originally Posted by Wesmaster160 1670035827 (#2279)

So like, what's the plan here Cuth? I don't get why you're looking at whatever posts your looking at with half an hour left in the day?

Like look at igno or TL?

I guess you did say you looked at them last time you popped in. Just feels like a weird time to want to be in catch up iso mode?

MIND MELD

can i assign you town leader if i die lol

i mean u were kinda 2nd place contributer anyways after frog kinda stopped being interested in the game

I think absolutely that if igno flips town - you need to look straight at my bottom 3 of michelle + cuth + TL and how they treated Igno slot this game.

i regret I dont have the mental capacity right now to cross reference D1 with this current EOD because it feels juicy info wise compared to the rest of the dayphase (well I think iirc there are some slots i did get to solve like wes earlier which was great)

but yeet.

I showed myself in Semis perfectly capable of creating perfect towncores, across several games this year able to solve 100% by the end of N1, if not outright creating a full perfect solve.

I am intoxicated right now so uhh yeah.



but honestly cuth's catchup is.. like notably null? like gut wise it makes me *want* to townread the slot bc of the fact he is making analysis - however the way the analysis is dripping in is *jagged* in nature like cuth is looking at a post, and only thinking about how he would feel about it individually. like yknow, really decent kind of maf play kinda way. probably worth looking into what cuth' reasonable scumrange is wrt presenting reads next dayphase - I am willing to eat crow due to him putting in the effort to do *something* however it is weird to pop in EoD and do this and not try to solve what the top wagon is, and ultimately the goal comes off as performative - that is to say cuth, I'd like to know why just now you're really into doing what you're doing.

Originally Posted by Trustworthy Liberal 1670035648 (#2276)

Am leaving cause I know Amma keep not being helpful and just calling out DK as wrong so Amma keep my wolf vote rate at 100% and see y'all in a bit over month.

Thanks Cuth yours posts have given me alittle more though into your slot.

sorry I PoEd your whole team

Originally Posted by Trustworthy Liberal 1670035393 (#2269)

Originally Posted by DkKoba 1670035140 (#2265)

Originally Posted by Trustworthy Liberal 1670035091 (#2263)

Originally Posted by DkKoba 1670035022 (#2261)

woof woof

You should atleast pretend to want to work with people otherwise your just gonna continue to make the game unfun

sorry I dont negotiate with mafia

IE why I stopped talking to you as your playing extremely anti town and creating a very negative environment to play it I hope if your town you die that way I can maybe enjoy this game even an little bit.

Yours sincerely

Someone you scum read for playing differenly then a rolemadness game according to you.

its about your approach / display of how you apply yourself to the game and not me trying to claim you aren't 1:1 but nice try

Originally Posted by Trustworthy Liberal 1670035091 (#2263)

Originally Posted by DkKoba 1670035022 (#2261)

Originally Posted by Cuthalion 1670034305 (#2248)

ftr koba if you want helpful replies

adding a to "any last words?"

might not be it

woof woof

You should atleast pretend to want to work with people otherwise your just gonna continue to make the game unfun

sorry I dont negotiate with mafia