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ggs guys. Sorry for my low activity and attitude about it EoD3. I'm probably not going to join large games like this again, but I did have fun for most of this one, so I might join a smaller game if it happens and time works out for me.

@SmartBomb : Thanks for hosting! I think looking for subs is always a mess in SF-games, so please don't beat yourself up over it.

@Ampharos : Thanks for all the work you put into making this game happen and then being town mvp on top of that.

@supa2 : Since I was probably a relevant component in tilting you this game, I'm really sorry.

Most of this honestly feels like you guys being agry at me for not writing an essay over 2 + 2 being equal to 4.

Which might be bad example because I've written quite a lot about that equation, but that's not the point.

and lack of d3 content if you want to split hairs*

Originally Posted by Ampharos 1598556418 (#1848)

Bart, here's my issue.

I don't think you've ever tried to seriously evaluate your Claire push. You townread her D1, suddenly flipped to a scumread D2 off her EoD1 voting, and then have since added "didn't die D2" to your list of reasons to scumread her. This is a lazy progression, which is NAI, but I think the fact that you're trying to represent it as your strongest scumread and aren't fully cognizant of how lazy it is is sketchy.

At no point today have you displayed any degree of paranoia that your Claire suspicion might be wrong. At no point have you attempt to find further reason to scumread her. At no point have you taken the jump to the second level of thinking, where you might start to critically evaluate WHY Claire as a wolf wouldn't have gotten voted yesterday.

You're not actually thinking this push through, you're just marching along for #gamestate purposes, and if it's not wolf motivated I need you to prove it.

##Vote Bartozio

My push is lazy because there's nothing to add. I could do a post by post of Claire not talking about the game, but what does that add?

Claire not being voted yesterday is because scum prefers a town lynch and some townies were sure enough to apparently not bother. That conclusion is so obvious that stating it almost feels like an insult, because everyone who has played a few games gets that. Lynching people for that reason before a Claire lynch is ridiculous though, because it assumes the flip.

Originally Posted by supa2 1598557564 (#1849)

From what I've read of the thread Claire has put Sully into her scumlist and I think Sully has been pretty adamant on thinking Claire is scum. If both are bussing each other they've made it obvious. It also doesn't fit the narrative that Claire/Sully are both unmmotivated because hardbussing is not a sign of this, usually it's just displayed apathy. Claire definitely has that, but I don't get where you're seeing those two are scum together. That all just begs convenience and I agree with Amy that if this is your strongest scumread you'd be thinking harder about what it means.

I dunno. Why did you townread her before and why did it change. Yes she was wrong on Dunn but yeah YOLO was too and if you think about it even harder anyone who voted for Dunn was wrong as well. Why is Claire defined by that action alone, just because she was the most vocal about it? And how does Sully fit with that too. That is pretty much the only thing I've been able to gather from you but what's worst is that you yourself voted Dunn. SO if that is your reasoning then it all stems from hypocrisy anyways. Work with me here.

Saying you dislike someone's content without commiting to a vote isn't bussing. Claire has not voted Sully once I think, and Sully has only voted Claire today for self pres.

Please go through my iso and quote me saying Claire being wrong on Dunn is scummy. I have never talked about that push being scummy from her once. I'm scumreading her purely on EoD1, and d2 content (or lack thereof).

Originally Posted by supa2 1598555897 (#1844)

I dunno man, I'm getting slightly titled at the premise of people coming in here with the facts and nothing leading up to it. Bart my problem with you might be shared with a lot of people and it's just that you've made assumptions of people. I know Claire/Sully isn't here but you had a lot of time to talk to them and instead all you've got to say is that we shouldn't overthink it and stay to the course like dunno wouldn't you rather be right or like no stone left unturned something like that

Maybe I'm the weird one

You really overestimate how much time I've had to talk to them, and I've been trying when I could. Keep in mind I didn't scumread Claire during d1.

I have never liked writing essays about stuff, simply because I feel the points just get lost to people when I do. If you don't know why I'm voting for the people I'm voting for, let me know. Because I think I've talked about them.

I'm also very used to people just glossing over big posts and only caring about the length and the vote.

Originally Posted by Ampharos 1598555956 (#1845)

Originally Posted by Bartozio 1598555805 (#1842)

Originally Posted by Ampharos 1598555573 (#1839)

Originally Posted by Bartozio 1598555414 (#1837)

@Ampharos I don't know fjp too well, but the case doesn't read tmi for me. Assuming Fenrir indeed always uses a lot of words to say nothing, not being convinced to scumread him for it, but being convinced to townread him for not doing it makes sense?

Does the shift in confidence level wrt ability to read the slot not strike you as odd?

FJP this game sounds like he has a legitimately solid grasp of Fenrir's meta and what to look for.

FJP in Marblelympics says he "always winds up scumreading Fen" and basically punts on the slot.

It's weird.

But he always winds up scumreading him for the thing he's finally not doing here? Like, I'd agree with you if he was suddenly convinced of a scum read but... that's not what's happening here.

Sure, but... people itg have played with Fenrir before, right? I've played with Fenrir before. And I had a light tonal v read on his early stuff, but the wall didn't move me in either direction. Whatever FJP saw, I didn't see it until I actively went looking for it after the fact.

That's why it sketches me so much.

I guess? I can't really remember much about playing with Fenrir myself. If it's something that always annoys him (which it feels like judging from that post) I could see him noticing it not being the case now.

Originally Posted by Ampharos 1598555573 (#1839)

Originally Posted by Bartozio 1598555414 (#1837)

@Ampharos I don't know fjp too well, but the case doesn't read tmi for me. Assuming Fenrir indeed always uses a lot of words to say nothing, not being convinced to scumread him for it, but being convinced to townread him for not doing it makes sense?

Does the shift in confidence level wrt ability to read the slot not strike you as odd?

FJP this game sounds like he has a legitimately solid grasp of Fenrir's meta and what to look for.

FJP in Marblelympics says he "always winds up scumreading Fen" and basically punts on the slot.

It's weird.

But he always winds up scumreading him for the thing he's finally not doing here? Like, I'd agree with you if he was suddenly convinced of a scum read but... that's not what's happening here.

@Ampharos I don't know fjp too well, but the case doesn't read tmi for me. Assuming Fenrir indeed always uses a lot of words to say nothing, not being convinced to scumread him for it, but being convinced to townread him for not doing it makes sense?

Unless you disagree about Sully being scum?

Originally Posted by supa2 1598553664 (#1832)

Why do you think Claire/Sully are scum together now lol

I don't really understand where the now is coming from?

Originally Posted by supa2 1598553930 (#1833)

Bart you said you were here to talk. What would help me determine your alignment is just that--talking. I think you make an alright point referring to All Might/Dunn in Arctic, it just begs the question of what next. Claire has already resigned to her death as either alignment which kinda sucks but I get it either way.

I think my first answer will be obvious, lol: Sully goes after Claire.
Part of me hopes that not just everyone agrees with that and the game becomes more readable again. Assuming Claire flips scum, D2 becomes a somewhat interesting read, because scum actually has stakes there.

If Claire somehow flips town we owe her a good look at Ria, at the very least.

Is there anything in particular you want to talk about? Because I struggle to think of topics...

Readlist:

Hard scum, yeet asap: Claire, Sully.
PoE: Fenrir, Shinori
prop town, but could be wrong: woopons, fjp, ria, Supa
Town: PB, Makaze, Amy


left is scummier/less towny. I know Amy made a case on fjp, but I have yet to read the quotes from other games, so this list basically ignores that.

Also I forgot to talk about it but:

@Makaze Athena had a different attitude to me and Mack, but like... we're also very different people? I came into the thread with a case and a vote, Mack was struggling to find anything. I have a perfect read record on Athena, Mack struggles to have reads early D1. Him being careful around me while pushing Mack doesn't feel all that weird to me.

Also, I'll be here for 2 hours or so if people want to talk.

I honestly feel like keeping Claire alive at this point would be a mistake. It'd literally only be because people grow paranoid.

Originally Posted by Paperblade 1598511476 (#1727)

@Bartozio Here's the problem: your defense of Athena itself is misconstruing all the actual cases on him

"I honestly don't see what people dislike so much about Athena's push on Mack to get some content from him. Mack is known for flaking when left alone, so making sure they get a read on them now seems fine? Like, I'm not very happy that's Athena's only content (in fact, I'm starting to scumread him for this), but I don't think it's bad on it's own?"

"I can't really put my finger on it but they seem to be supporting both wagons and making a fake push on mackc2, ending with no target or vote of their own, and gave way too much town credit to a bunch of people just for being on my wagon." - Makaze

"p#342 is a wolfy hard unvote despite claiming that the mak wagon is a good push. townread on mack looks vaguely TMI-y and i'd like for athena to elaborate on what in particular he found towny about mack's responses to him" - Amph

"re: athena - +1 to what others have said regarding the vote + nonpush + unvote on mackc2
but also like
what kind of town player goes and says “just answer only to what i asked”
even though mack’s posts were a clear attempt at gamesolving and is at least tangentially relevant to the discussion at hand
this is tonally distinct from how town would’ve prodded mack to answer the question" - FJP

these are the main cases made against Athena (other mentions of him either didn't give a reason for finding him scummy or put him in null/town). All three of these cases have more to them than the push on Mack, be it that he makes an empty unvote despite liking another wagon or that it feels like he's TMI'ing.

My next question is D2 you think Claire is more scummy than yolo which is fine, I have no problem with this. My problem is that your other scumread coming into Day 3 is Sully because he doesn't care who between yolo and Claire gets wagoned, but Sully's vote is right on Claire, which fits what he said in response to you D2. And then you also vote Claire. If sully is scum, don't you think it's reasonably likely claire is town? I get you're demotivated because you got ignored, but I have to ask: Do you think Sully is bussing Claire? If not, why Claire over Sully?

You call it a defense, but I was only pointing out a bad point people were making on someone who's scummy. If I was defending him I wouldn't end with saying he's scummy. All of the people you quote are talking about the Mack interaction looking bad. Yes they talk about more things, but they also very clearly talk about that.

I never said "all votes on Athena are bad", I said "this thing people bring up is bad".

On your other question: You say Sully comes in voting Claire, but he doesn't. His whole first post this day reads more like trying to get people off of Claire than on her to me. The whole post is literally "Claire seems to be the correct lynch here but...".

His vote afterwards is only after Makaze starts pushing him, and it's total self pres.

Claire has also basically given up at this point, so I can easily see him voting there to self press. Spread some doubt, hope for the best, then vote there anyway to look towny.

Originally Posted by supa2 1598513997 (#1745)

I mean if Claire is scum and the whole thread seemingly wants her

Best option is to sit and agree, but how often do games end up like where almost everyone scumreads a player and they're scum

I don't count Athena like this

Often enough. Since I think you were in that game: All Might/KTS in Waifu mafia. Dunn in Artic. Almost every newb scum that gets caught d1.

Other question for you: How often does town have scum in the palm of their hand, but overthinks it and selfdestructs from paranoia?

@Chelsea Well if you insist:
Amy talked about it before, but after the Dunn claim Ria suddenly switched to the Athena wagon. If she's scum, why does she do this and get a buddy lynched instead of just staying put on the person she's been casing all day? Unless you think Makaze is also scum (in which case lets talk about that!) this seems suicidal for scum to me. Please share your thoughts on why you think we should lynch Ria anyway.

@Ampharos You're thoughts than, while we're at it?

Originally Posted by Ampharos 1598470116 (#1658)

what do you think about those comments in retrospect?

Both are bad, because they avoid talking about Claire and just default to YOLO being scummy.
Sully's is a lot worse, because he avoids commiting to anything and just throws it on the big "I'll get back to this later" pile.
Supa's isn't great, but it at least feels like he has a clear goal instead of just trying to avoid the conversation.

Supa is still a townlean because of his other content, but pretty sure on a Sully scum read. I think Claire is more damning though.

I suck, p#1308 and p#1311

Originally Posted by Ampharos 1598469530 (#1654)

Originally Posted by Bartozio 1598466691 (#1649)

Originally Posted by Shinori 1598422958 (#1590)

Originally Posted by Bartozio 1598420555 (#1589)

Would uhm... like an explanation on why someone you think is town needs to die.

I'm interested in why you didn't bring this up yesterday? You were voting Chelsea yesterday but I don't remember you super hard pushing the case, maybe I'm mis-remembering but this above question you are asking 100% feels like something you should have made more of a deal about yesterday. I know a few other people made this argument previously but I don't think it was super massive to be against chelsea.

I'm zoning out and ranting; point is, why now and not yesterday?

It was mentioned by other people, so didn't see the need to restate it back then. I'm doing that now because Claire never responded to it and I don't want people forgetting about it.

I tried asking people why in the world they were voting Claire over YOLO yesterday, but I got pretty hard ignored and when I started asking people who were online the main response was "I scumread both anyway, so why does this matter? Lets just get the YOLO lynch over with." Somehow I got demotivated afterwards.

who specifically told you this?

Sully in #1308, Supa made a similar comment in #1311 about just wanting the YOLO lynch over and done with to read the game better.

Originally Posted by supa2 1598467722 (#1650)

Do you think Athena had any spew in regards to town or scum based on his play?

Fjp is the only one that comes to mind, and that's more because I find them staying on each other for a whole day when they're low on content odd than it actually being spew.

Me if there was more talk about people sussing me in the thread, but there wasn't.

I think everything else is too small to really say much. My read on it now is that he was just really struggling to find anything worthwhile to commit to, so he just left loose comments everywhere that sounded logical.

Originally Posted by Shinori 1598422958 (#1590)

Originally Posted by Bartozio 1598420555 (#1589)

Would uhm... like an explanation on why someone you think is town needs to die.

I'm interested in why you didn't bring this up yesterday? You were voting Chelsea yesterday but I don't remember you super hard pushing the case, maybe I'm mis-remembering but this above question you are asking 100% feels like something you should have made more of a deal about yesterday. I know a few other people made this argument previously but I don't think it was super massive to be against chelsea.

I'm zoning out and ranting; point is, why now and not yesterday?

It was mentioned by other people, so didn't see the need to restate it back then. I'm doing that now because Claire never responded to it and I don't want people forgetting about it.

I tried asking people why in the world they were voting Claire over YOLO yesterday, but I got pretty hard ignored and when I started asking people who were online the main response was "I scumread both anyway, so why does this matter? Lets just get the YOLO lynch over with." Somehow I got demotivated afterwards.

Originally Posted by Paperblade 1598425186 (#1593)

I think the D1 dunn wagon is more useful than the yolo/claire wagons because we know Dunn and Athena's alignments. There's a good chance that yolo/claire were town/town. It's likely there are 1-2 scum in Fenrir, Chelsea, Bart, and woopons.

rn I would probably go Bart > Fenrir > Claire > woopons from most to least scummy

I think Bart's interactions with Athena are weird. 485 is kinda sus knowing Athena is scum and Mack/BBM slot is town. He subtly defends Athena while in the next sentence tries to distance himself by claiming he's scumreading him for it.

Despite his scumlean on Athena and Makaze as stated in 553 with very few posts between, in 956 he implies he thinks Dunn's responses. 3 posts later he decides Athena is now town after stating "Athena/Makaze could easily be a thing" and... votes Dunn, who wasn't even on his radar until this string of posts.

I've posted the votecount as of his vote in 961 and I think this is insanely scummy

##Vote Bartozio

About the bolded part:
1) You're missconstruing what I said. I said Athena wasn't scummy for reason A, but reason B. Not that reason A isn't scummy but I'm still scumreading him for it. (A being pushing Mack, B being peacing out afterwards)

2) Please read Sully's ISO if you think that kind of thing is scummy.

3) Read below the next quote for more on Athena.

About my vote on Dunn: see, I would have copy pasted Marth's case on him, but then my post would have exceeded three sentences and nobody would read it.

Originally Posted by supa2 1598428187 (#1629)

@Bartozio

You know Athena well. I understand he's dead but provide some insight into Athena for us

Scum Athena goes for easy content and coasts a lot while sheeping thread consensus. Town Athena can start similar, but there's more spring in his steps if you look for it, and once he gets going he's basically Towny McTown (lots of good reads/cases, rapid fires people about the game whenever he can find them online, etc.).

That's why I was scumreading him at first, but the case on me threw me off. I also probably was a bit too lenient because of him likely being rusty.

Originally Posted by Ampharos 1598429340 (#1637)

@Bartozio walk me through your full-game claire progression

Day 1: Not a huge fan of how she's playing, but this is basically just like Artic Mafia (where I death tunneled her into a misslynch D2) and I like her pushes. Townlean.

Day 2: Her votes around endgame a very convenient for scum in retrospect, and her reads are not developing at all (in particular Ria, who's position on the Athena wagon was why a lot of people were townreading her and Claire never talked about it while clearly thinking Ria was the best push).
Add to that the fact that she was voting YOLO for the whole day despite apparently town reading him and the fact that the thread wanted to keep her alive over YOLO for some reason that is still beyond me makes me pretty confident here.

Originally Posted by Chelsea 1598224800 (#1383)

Still think YOLO is likely town due to how the wagon is turning out but this playerlist isn't going to move on without one of our deaths it seems given how read rate heavy it is. Something I hate but alas.

Originally Posted by Chelsea 1598288620 (#1454)

Endgame: Supa/PB/FJP
Look at only near endgame: Amph/Makaze/Shinori
Sortable: Bart/Fen
Probably kill: Woopens/Sully
Don't allow to make it far: Ria/Yolo

5/12 re reads done.

@Chelsea Would uhm... like an explanation on why someone you think is town needs to die.

Sully to me feels like every time he interacts with people, he does it in a way that avoids answering direct questions and breaks off the conversation as easily as possible, which looks bad.

##Vote Chelsea

Doing this for now because I think it makes the game more readable (and I suspect her at least as much as Sully), but I wouldn't be against a Sully lynch.

I'll post a proper read list later today, but have to go to work now.

Originally Posted by SullyMcGully 1598300122 (#1476)

Originally Posted by Ampharos 1598261935 (#1410)

@SullyMcGully elaborate on not being particularly impressed by my content

It's not that it's particularly scummy, it's just that it... isn't worded very well. You (and this could be said of Ria too) tend to write in large paragraphs that can address multiple different points and lack good sentence order, which means that I have to reread them several times to figure out what they're saying. And so far, in this game, I haven't really had time to read anyone's posts more than once (with the exception of the YOLO ISO I did recently.)

But your voting history sends a pretty clear message without me having to understand the accompanying reads. The Athena push would be really hard for scum to justify.

I'm just worried because of SFMM5. In that game, Zoey and I were town leader. We allowed you into our inner circle and made you aware of our plans for all of town's power roles. When mafia completely screwed up on N1, I figured it cleared you, because you knew who was getting docced/copped/etc and you could have done something about it if you were scum. You were my top townread for the rest of the game. Little did I know that the reason scum didn't get a successful kill N1 was because you were overworked IRL and never actually got the chance to tell your buddies who not to shoot.

So basically, I kinda do have this impression of you as someone who might do something that makes no sense as scum and basically townclears you at the start of the game just to make the rest of the game a walk in the park.

I mean, I did this myself in a recent scumgame. I bussed all three of my buddies in the first three day phases to gain as much towncred as I could. I didn't really have much of a choice, as they were all way too low-effort for me to protect. And yeah, I did get misyeeted on the fourth day phase... but that's because I'm terrible. I'm sure you could pull it off.

Don't let the fact that I made six paragraphs about this make you think you're a top scumread for me, though. There are definitely worse-looking players on the list. I just don't think it's impossible for you to be scum just because you got Athena yeeted.

Originally Posted by Chelsea 1598289180 (#1458)

Anyone who isn't in the top/bottom row may ask for why a read is placed their excluding themselves and I will happily enlighten you when I'm back from my break. Carry on little mice.

I kinda want to be "enlightened," but judging from your interactions with Supa, I'd just get a bunch of raw condescension with hardly any logic I can reply to.

Also, if you're scumreading someone, shouldn't you explain your reasoning to town regardless of whether that someone wants you to or not? This is just lazy. If you think me or Weapons are likely scum, you should say why so that information is out in the open. You shouldn't just throw out a vague "I'm sussing you!" and then say "I'll only tell you why if you ask politely though." Like, why should scum care if you're scumreading them? The purpose of a case is not to tell scumreads why they're suspicious, it's to tell town why you think scumreads are scum.

There's no town benefit in doing the above. It doesn't even put any real pressure on the players in question. The only reason I can see you doing it is as scum, hoping nobody questions you about your lack of reads and trying to make players you know are town paranoid for no reason.

Originally Posted by Makaze 1598289605 (#1462)

Originally Posted by supa2 1598288937 (#1457)

Woopons reveals himself over time just like Dunn did when nobody CC'd him. That's a lot of noise just for trying to lynch Dunn. I think the EoD looks good for woopons because you had a bunch of people who realized Woopons was just doing woopons and wasn't being serious. I think if Woopons had a team they could could string together that Woopons meant his claim (I wasn't sure about the timing of everything) for real and even if Dunn died then he did them a solid getting him killed. It's not like anyone would blame those for believing woopons it'd just be like 'ah man I guess he owned us'

I'm seriously worried about that because this is exactly what I did in Zelda mafia and it cleared me to endgame

Makaze, Makaze, Makaze. I get that you've done the whole fakeclaim thing as scum before. And I get that you're worried. But I also can't really think of two playstyles that have less in common than yours and Weapon's. You're completely different players, so for me "Makaze did this once" doesn't really translate to "Weapons does this also."

Originally Posted by Bartozio 1598292723 (#1470)

Originally Posted by Makaze 1598290200 (#1469)

I keep thinking about it but no matter how much WIFOM I have I don't get why woopons CC's or doesn't believe Dunn in the first place given he's fakeclaiming.

Confuse the scumteam into not shooting Dunn asap? That's what I thought Woopons was doing, but maybe I give him too much credit.

I actually thought about this. I wondered whether it townspewed Weapons that scum didn't shoot Dunn last night. If Weapons was scum, then they would know that Dunn was the real doc.

But I decided against it. I mean, even if they hadn't known which one was the real doc, it still would have been optimal to shoot one or the other. The fact that they didn't is bizarre.

Also Weapons cut it really close. He almost actually got Dunn yeeted. That doesn't seem like someone trying to keep Dunn alive. Not unless there are some big brain plays going on here, and I honestly don't get that vibe from Weapons.

Just... what? Amy forgetting to do something as scum once is suddenly a reason why she'd hard yeet a buddy as scum? What?

And how is it even a missyeet if you're scum.

Also odd, when I tried that as scum in HeroAca mafia I couldn't even get my buddies lynched, let alone get town so far to lynch me.

Eh, Woopons can make a big brains play at times. Considering how those tend to walk the fine line between being either genius or incredibly stupid, they're a lot closer to just regular trolling than you might think.

Originally Posted by SullyMcGully 1598300186 (#1477)

Thanks for posting recently Bartozio. This'll make you easy to ISO.

Always happy to help. This also made me realize I can click a post to iso the person instead of just using the filter function... nice.

Considering the current wagons, I'm fairly confident in just sticking to a Claire vote being the right thing btw. Not against lynching Fenrir if it came down to it (as in, him over YOLO), but Claire gives way more info and is just as scummy, if not more so.

Originally Posted by Chelsea 1598216612 (#1320)

Originally Posted by Bartozio 1598195340 (#1296)

So considering who's left in my poe and Amy's argument about eod, Ria is likely town, rip.
Also, can I ask why people are mad that YOLO was complaining about not buying a claim by his number one scum read an hour before he would be lynched, but him still immeadiately voting the scum alternative (Athena), and nobody seemingly cares about Claire and Fenrir trying to make a Ria lynch happen instead?

Like, I get most people scumread all of them, but why are we going for YOLO first here?

I'd much rather do this:

##Vote Chelsea

I openly made it clear I would vote Athena when I was around at EOD if it was needed but the wagon was already long gone I saw it pointless to needlessly add my vote to the mix. You can argue the fact that I tried to save Athena by pushing ria but that seems very odd to do when that puts on in an already worse spot for a mafia goon no less that was already dead in the water. Wolfs have all the information besides who the Town PRs are that's important to remember in topics like this.

Okay no. You don't get to claim credit for declaring you'll vote Athena if you didn't actually go through with it when it mattered. It was an hour before deadline, what other reason could you possibly have for voting outside the Athena wagon other than you know, lynching someone else?

Enough people were suspecting Ria to the point that the push might have actually worked, and without an Athena flip, it wasn't even going to look that bad on you.

Scum has one pr, who's going to do what, block the doc scum can just shoot anytime they want anyway? Maybe it's just how I'm used to playing mafia, but I think the numbers matter far more than the roles, and going to 13/4 instead of 14/3 is huge.

Originally Posted by Ampharos 1598262370 (#1412)

also where did bart get townspewed by athena? cause this is possibly news to me

he's probably the #1 slot i want to reread, cause i think like... when you synthesize the entire gamestate and look at everyone's list of reads, if you're willing to sheep the people who have confident townreads on slots that may not be universally townread (e.g. paper on sully/shino, me on makaze) you wind up with bart looking pretty likely to be scum

and i remember that interaction i had with him yesterday that i called him town for in the moment... but i still think it's somewhat odd that he was so confidently townreading mack, and that he didn't really press further after my super long answer to HIS super long answer, and it... feels kinda TMI-ish? like he knew mack was town and decided to try townshielding him a bit to me to give himself something to talk about, and then like... decided to back down when he either didn't want to or didn't know HOW to progress further.

granted he was probably on the brink of sleep cause his time zone's weird but like

ok this post is already way longer than it was initially supposed to be lemme just pull up the damn iso and get it over with

You can call me being confident in a townread on Mack TMI, but keep in mind he's been in almost every game I've ever played and I know the guy pretty well in general. I've also seen him get scumread while I was pretty sure he was town a lot, only for me to be proven right after the lynch

or him being forced to claim a pr, which of course he rolled this game as well, because why would he ever not get lucky with roles?!

Outside of that, yeah I went to sleep at a bad time, basically thinking "whatever, we'll just continue this D2", which uhm... became a lot less relevant because of the flip, rip.

Originally Posted by Makaze 1598290200 (#1469)

I keep thinking about it but no matter how much WIFOM I have I don't get why woopons CC's or doesn't believe Dunn in the first place given he's fakeclaiming.

Confuse the scumteam into not shooting Dunn asap? That's what I thought Woopons was doing, but maybe I give him too much credit.

Originally Posted by SullyMcGully 1598210266 (#1309)

And I get why Fenrir looks bad, but the push on him feels like a lazy attempt to gain points by going with a less widely-accepted case. The guy's posted almost nothing while the other top wagons have tons of content to analyze. Fenrir comes across to me like a townie who spent hardly any time reading the thread, and if he actually is mafia, he's prime real estate for bussing due to his lackluster content and lack of strong associations.

I guess, although arguably the same could be said for Athena, and he didn't exactly get bussed, until arguably after Amy's push at EoD.

Also, who do you scumread outside of YOLO and Claire? There's at least one other scum member left.

Originally Posted by SullyMcGully 1598209937 (#1308)

Originally Posted by Bartozio 1598209282 (#1306)

Originally Posted by Bartozio 1598195340 (#1296)

Also, can I ask why people are mad that YOLO was complaining about not buying a claim by his number one scum read an hour before he would be lynched, but him still immeadiately voting the scum alternative (Athena), and nobody seemingly cares about Claire and Fenrir trying to make a Ria lynch happen instead?

Like, I get most people scumread all of them, but why are we going for YOLO first here?

@SullyMcGully can you respond to this btw, assuming you're still around?

I mean, I scumread both of them. I haven't looked into Claire's ISO as intently as I have YOLO's but the whole switching to Ria thing is... bad, but so obviously bad it blows my mind that scum would actually do that. Like, did they seriously think they could start a counterwagon that close to deadline and literally give no thought to how it would look once Athena was inevitably lynched? It seems too obvious... but then again, if Claire and YOLO are really scum together, then a lot of what they've done so far has been too obvious, so that's a reality we can't rule out.

So basically, you have a point. Since we're apparently dealing with a really bad scumteam (I'm actually having second thoughts about whether Claire/YOLO can actually be a thing because of how horribly they've played if that's the case) I can't rule out what you're saying. I still feel pretty confident in my case (and Supa's better version of my case) on YOLO, though. I'm fine to go either way.

You're starting to doubt Claire/YOLO can be a thing, but you're fine to go either way?

Originally Posted by Bartozio 1598195340 (#1296)

Also, can I ask why people are mad that YOLO was complaining about not buying a claim by his number one scum read an hour before he would be lynched, but him still immeadiately voting the scum alternative (Athena), and nobody seemingly cares about Claire and Fenrir trying to make a Ria lynch happen instead?

Like, I get most people scumread all of them, but why are we going for YOLO first here?

@SullyMcGully can you respond to this btw, assuming you're still around?

Originally Posted by SullyMcGully 1598208634 (#1304)

Originally Posted by Bartozio 1598196328 (#1297)

Pretty sure at least one of Claire/Fenrir is scum here, and not unlikely to just be both. Sully with Claire could also work, but unsure about all three of them being the remaining scum, since that would be a very big commitment.

Remaining scum would likely be either YOLO or Shinori, or someone I'm giving more town cred than I should.

If I was with Claire, I wouldn't be able to contain my joy~

So that's why you've been so happy this entire game

Pretty sure at least one of Claire/Fenrir is scum here, and not unlikely to just be both. Sully with Claire could also work, but unsure about all three of them being the remaining scum, since that would be a very big commitment.

Remaining scum would likely be either YOLO or Shinori, or someone I'm giving more town cred than I should.

So considering who's left in my poe and Amy's argument about eod, Ria is likely town, rip.
Also, can I ask why people are mad that YOLO was complaining about not buying a claim by his number one scum read an hour before he would be lynched, but him still immeadiately voting the scum alternative (Athena), and nobody seemingly cares about Claire and Fenrir trying to make a Ria lynch happen instead?

Like, I get most people scumread all of them, but why are we going for YOLO first here?

I'd much rather do this:

##Vote Chelsea

Originally Posted by Bartozio 1597953621 (#955)

BBM joining us now means we either get dead scum or huge illeterate memes, and I'm okay with both. This'll be great.

I feel robbed.

Also Amy should be hard town now, unless people think Makaze and Dunn are both scum (which uhm... I find doubtful).

I... think they're leaning town on Dunn? That or hard null, based almost purely on #855 (asking Marth to explain the case) and a general not wanting to vote on him

Originally Posted by Ampharos 1597958859 (#974)

Originally Posted by Bartozio 1597958036 (#971)

@Ampharos I might have just missed it, but do you have a read on the Mack/BBM slot outside of association with Athena? I don't disagree their association leaves the option of them being scum together open, but I feel Mack is towny in his own right.

With the caveat that I don't have meta on Mack, I disagree.

He starts by looking at the Mak wagon... but he seems to be more looking for people to scumread on the wagon than to truly evaluate the validity of any pushes/really feel out anyone's alignment. He gives a super hedgy "well I disagree but also agree" on Shino's Mak case and then never really follows it up, he calls out my vote and then only backs down and gives a townread when corrected on it, and then he calls out woopons's vote. No townreads to be had, even though pb and ria had perfectly fine votes.

p#406, the start of his push on Claire, is performative in a wolfy way. The "and just for a bit of encouragement" followed by the vote change is super smelly. The push itself isn't even particularly good - he's not pushing Claire for things I would consider aligment-indicative - and the aggression level is incongruous when juxtaposed with that. And then there's p#728 where he backs down for LITERALLY no reason with a wolfy unvote to boot. Suspecting he felt on the wind that the thread consensus wasn't in his favor and tried to bail.

BBM is not someone I think I can read off one post, so it's gonna have to stand as a scumread off Mack's body of work.

Tbf, Athena specificly seemed to ask about the people on the wagon.

I mean, it's different arguments he comments on in regard to Shinori. I think disliking one argument and liking another makes sense?

I don't think changing your opinion after being called out for missreading is weird tbh (on you).

I also just hard disagree on ria and Paper having "perfectly fine votes". Paper seemed to be missremembering meta, which I don't blame him for, but I don't see why you'd townread someone for that. Ria I actively voted for because of the sequence so...

Why is the remark smelly?

Also, you don't see voting someone and making up reasons for it later as scummy? I'm not saying that's what Claire did, but it is what Mack is accusing her off.

Idk, Claire responded to him afterwards, so he might have changed his mind from that.

I understand not knowing his meta. Not really sure what more I can tell you about it outside of... he tends to flake a lot.

Originally Posted by Ampharos 1597958003 (#970)

athena vanity parking is kinda interesting in italics

Do you think scum!him would be disintrested in the wagons enough to leave his vote in basically irrelevance? this is not me being sarcastic btw, just geniunely curious.

@Ampharos I might have just missed it, but do you have a read on the Mack/BBM slot outside of association with Athena? I don't disagree their association leaves the option of them being scum together open, but I feel Mack is towny in his own right.

Originally Posted by SullyMcGully 1597957486 (#965)

I've got to go to a concert, and I won't be back by DL. I suppose one of the most informational yeets we have right now is Dunn, and nothing will progress YOLO/Claire/Makaze's slots along better than lynching there. So I'm not particularly upset about this lynch, but I'm leaving my vote on Ariadne in case y'all want to swivel. Here's hoping we catch scum. Sully out.

Not to be that guy, but wouldn't a Makaze lynch be a very easy way to find out his allignment?

@ariadne Can you share your take on Dunn when you get back? I understand you prefer a Makaze lynch, but you haven't talked about Dunn at all and I would really like to hear at least if you think he's also scummy or town that should be protected.

Despite Sully voting there, I really don't see a ria yeet happening today, so guess I get to pick between the active wagons.

Dunns play is reminding me more and more of Artic mafia. That's relevant mostly because I was townreading him early this phase for the opposite. Sheeping Marths read here:

##Vote Dunnstral

I actually like the Athena case on me since I feel like I've been playing poorly this game and was very suprised nobody called me out on it. Only real reasons I have to give are the good old tired and demotivated because lot of posts.

Okay, serious time now, I finally caught up and have about an hour left before I really start needing my sleep.
To answer the relevant questions asked I feel the need to respond to:

@Paperblade defending Dunn: I might be biased, but I get pushed for dumb stuff a lot while people ignore my arguments, and the only time I had an emotional reaction to it in the game I was scum. I didn't even fake it, you can feel like you're making good arguments despite being scum and feeling it doesn't even matter what allignment you are.

@YOLOSWAG on Makaze not being scum because interactions: If I was scum in Makaze's shoes I'd be stating a scumread on at least one of my buddies when being pushed like that. One of them would likely be bussing, and among the other two one could be pushing a different wagon instead of defending Makaze, and the other doing the same or just being one of the people who was afk. I agree with you that a Makaze/Ria team would be weird (I tend to not think of associations much when stating my reads d1) but Athena/Makaze could very easily be a thing.

Originally Posted by Athena_57 1597925911 (#830)

IIRC he was in a fight w/ fable in that game and even tho noone voted w/ him I'm pretty sure he kept yelling at us to vote him

I take offense to that.

Originally Posted by Athena_57 1597927530 (#836)

Originally Posted by Paperblade 1597909401 (#799)

I should read through the counting boys + fjp

you better not be counting me as part of the counting boys

Originally Posted by Athena_57 1597927702 (#839)

!!!!!!!!

Bart hasn't used strikethorugh once this entire game

lockscum

F, he caught me. I give up guys. Be happy I haven't tried to screen shot the discord thumbs up emote yet...


Also quick shout outs:

BBM joining us now means we either get dead scum or huge illeterate memes, and I'm okay with both. This'll be great.

If Makaze/Yolo/Claire is a team, I kind of want them to stay alive so they keep being stuck with one another longer, not gonna lie.

Sorry guys, got lost on my reread and am now basically dead (just exhausted from rl stuff, dw).

Quick where I'm at right now:

From what I remember from playing with Amy, she should be obv town here. People (including her) keep saying it shouldn't be obv town, but that's honestly the only thing stopping me from calling it hard town so lol.

Claire's play feels very similar to Artic mafia, where she was town, so leaning town there. Might be biased because I tunneled her in that game, idk.

I Remember Dunn talking a lot less about the game when I played a game with scum!him, so felt towny to me. Later posts remind me more of that game though, so eh. More leaning null now.

For the life of me I can barely remember anything Fjp posted, which is probably a bad sign. Will read up on him tommorow.

I would have expected a bit more fire from Athena at this point, so leaning scum here. Might be that it's just been a while since he has played, but it reminds me a lot of his scum game. (I'm going to be so pissed if rust is what ends up breaking my perfect read record on him, ngl.)

Makaze is sort of in a similar boat, but I liked his reads more.

I think I've said my piece on Ria at this point.

I'd basically go Ria>Athena>Makaze, with FJP going to end up in between there somewhere when I finish reading.

I won't be around at deadline tommorow, but I'll be around in the evening for a few hours before that, and maybe in the morning for a little bit.

Originally Posted by Athena_57 1597841975 (#521)

Originally Posted by Athena_57 1597834824 (#505)

Fsr it took me like 5 times to read p#382 and although it doesn't actually say a whole lot in terms of depth I lean town just bc I think scum!ariadne would structure it more / pick smth clear to push given that they're being pushed my multiple people

Actually @Bartozio when u get on how do u feel about this?

It's fine I think. No real hot takes, but it's reads. Kind of annoyed we only get reads on multiple people after she got pushed, instead of just when things were happening. Basically, this is kind of the post I see scum making after they realize they're being scumread for not talking about the game. Could also be that she just doesn't have hot takes, but it doesn't relieve my earlier impression at least.

Originally Posted by ariadne 1597847592 (#525)

Originally Posted by Bartozio 1597823015 (#485)

I think 247 is a fairly normal comment to make at that point as well, but my issue is that it's the only comment they make about Makaze there. Like, Ria is scumreading them for apparently that interaction alone (or at least it's what they gave as a reason for the vote, so it's the main thing), yet when it's happening and straight after they say nothing about it? And only when someone mistakes their vote for still just being an rvs vote do we hear about the scumread? Idk, I find that pretty sus.

in your opinion what makes this different from ex: claire empty voting and then only explaining later as well

Empty voting is at least a commitment of some kind. Claire was also the first to really vote there, so it wasn't an easy jump on the wagon and think of an explanation later either.

Probably also a factor is that I've seen town do it often enough I don't hard scum read it anymore, whereas half ignoring a scummy thing first and then pushing it as your main scumread I haven't.

I've only really been skimming this thread, so I'm going to reread some of the cases and stuff a bit better.

Some quick comments:

I think 247 is a fairly normal comment to make at that point as well, but my issue is that it's the only comment they make about Makaze there. Like, Ria is scumreading them for apparently that interaction alone (or at least it's what they gave as a reason for the vote, so it's the main thing), yet when it's happening and straight after they say nothing about it? And only when someone mistakes their vote for still just being an rvs vote do we hear about the scumread? Idk, I find that pretty sus.

I honestly don't see what people dislike so much about Athena's push on Mack to get some content from him. Mack is known for flaking when left alone, so making sure they get a read on them now seems fine? Like, I'm not very happy that's Athena's only content (in fact, I'm starting to scumread him for this), but I don't think it's bad on it's own?

Originally Posted by Ampharos 1597750969 (#336)

protip: you can type p#postnum and it autolinks the post

example: p#275

thats all I'm sleeping now

Originally Posted by mackc2 1597750398 (#333)

Yeah I realised, I just got sidetracked, anyway Amphys hop aboard the Makaze wagon raises some eyebrows, since (unless I missed something) they had not made any posts saying they had an issue with Makaze since game start

They explained it in #275.

Alright, got confused because the preview thing didn't show it in blue.

@Athena_57 Something like this?

Rip mentioning other people I guess...