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  1. Day 3#4026

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread ladd anyways bye might be back at 5:50 ...

    ##Vote ladd

    anyways bye

    might be back at 5:50

    probably was fun
  2. Day 3#4025

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread okay if we say that some combination of...

    okay

    if we say that some combination of legacies, d3 ladd-dom, and wrongness is out the window as reasons to sus ladd -- I do see some reasons to believe this, but I get the hesitancies at some level -- I'd say the following are things to consider.

    I just .. think he's too confident on some things, not enough on others, and his progressions don't really fully vibe

    He just doesn't click as a villager. I can put at lot of words around this, but I don't.

    Amrock and SPF both have points that resonate


    my real legacy in this regard is make ladd vote first tomorrow probably

    and don't blindly trust hally either, probably

    zack I'm back to comfortable with IG

    and SPF seems villagy enough to me but I could be wrong
  3. Day 3#4011

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread there's a princess bride quote that would reflect...

    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#3987)
    if it's not apogee then i'll be depressed and figure out some way to salvage lylo i suppose, but to me he almost has to be a wolf
    there's a princess bride quote that would reflect this, but I can't find it

    I still don't really get what crystalized your read and I'm increasingly likely to go to the grave without it
  4. Day 3#4006

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread hi hi hi I'm here for seven minutes or something...

    hi hi hi I'm here for seven minutes or something before another meeting

    my biggest regret in this game is lack of time lol
  5. Day 3#3921

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread presumably I was thinking about the vigilantes or...

    Quote Originally Posted by Panther (#3920)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#3919)
    Quote Originally Posted by Panther (#3916)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#159)
    mischop you d1

    chainkill the remaining wolves

    worked last time
    “Remaining”

    teehee
    mischop

    uno reverse?
    Right I understand you used “mischop” so why say “remaining”

    #realslip
    presumably I was thinking about the vigilantes or something

    or just using remaining to indicate all, which doesn't strike me as particularly weird lol
  6. Day 3#3919

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread mischop uno reverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panther (#3916)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#159)
    Quote Originally Posted by Empoof (#156)
    I read more posts and I’ll tell my therapist my conclusions, which are many

    Consider the game solved

    Your move, wilves
    mischop you d1

    chainkill the remaining wolves

    worked last time
    “Remaining”

    teehee
    mischop

    uno reverse?
  7. Day 3#3918

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread name the last game you had a moment of clarity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#3913)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#3909)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#3901)
    I feel like apogee and vanity both suggested that vanity basically would thunderstrike apogee from the heavens if it was v/w in that way

    vanity townreads apogee for days off meta, then switches on him today and is like - meh, it's POE!

    something ain't right here, can't shake the feeling, felt like I just guided a wolf into giving them permission to turn on the villager they were somewhat shielding

    spf for me is one of those "seemed villagy enough d1+d2 and wasn't a real lunch option anyway, townread by the thread, and I got distracted by other stuff and didn't think about or re-evaluate it much, but on D3 when we sit down and put the big boy pants on, they don't actually strike me as being very villagy at all"
    yeah maybe

    otoh like I dunno

    sometimes there are legit moments of clarity
    are you saying vanity flipping to wolf reading you is the “moment of clarity” or…?
    name the last game you had a moment of clarity about someone obviously being a wolf then then flipped villager

    half the people in this game should say this game, the other half should say their last game

  8. Day 3#3909

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    31,672

    Game Thread yeah maybe otoh like I dunno sometimes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#3901)
    I feel like apogee and vanity both suggested that vanity basically would thunderstrike apogee from the heavens if it was v/w in that way

    vanity townreads apogee for days off meta, then switches on him today and is like - meh, it's POE!

    something ain't right here, can't shake the feeling, felt like I just guided a wolf into giving them permission to turn on the villager they were somewhat shielding

    spf for me is one of those "seemed villagy enough d1+d2 and wasn't a real lunch option anyway, townread by the thread, and I got distracted by other stuff and didn't think about or re-evaluate it much, but on D3 when we sit down and put the big boy pants on, they don't actually strike me as being very villagy at all"
    yeah maybe

    otoh like I dunno

    sometimes there are legit moments of clarity
  9. Day 3#3907

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread are you intentionally ignoring the last line or ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#3906)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#3897)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#3895)
    i don’t even get why he’s focusing on vanity saying “before today we didn’t know the game was hard” because like… that seems true to me? today nearly everyone in the collective PoE either flipped town or claimed vig, so i would definitely say the game feels a lot harder and that seems like a nonissue to take with vanity’s posts
    maybe for the groupthing "towncore" the game seemed easy

    but for those of us who thought amrock was villagy, lime was fine? probably?, and katze was defacto rand the entire game felt hard and it feels classically "oops lolus" wolf behavior

    epecesially when the "hard world" is me and ladd? ladd, who's been pushed by villagers all game, and me? who was barely here d2 and kind of townread but mostly ignored until I got tinfoiled d1?
    so you’re saying “for me the game seemed hard so i don’t get why vanity is saying it got harder” but that’s just projecting your pov onto vanity without considering hers

    like, she’s been clearing you all game and now she thinks she was wrong the whole time and you’re a wolf, so isn’t it obvious why she thinks the game got harder?

    this it what i mean when i say it seems like you’re trying to discredit her not solve her

    you make an issue out of something that makes perfect sense if you consider it from her pov even a little bit
    are you intentionally ignoring the last line or

    it doesn't make sense together

    the first was more a musing on my disagreement with the statement

    but I don't think vanity is treating the game like it feels hard to her
  10. Day 3#3899

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread think I'm back to zack just being village as...

    think I'm back to zack just being village as opposed to tottering on the edge, partially because his posts overnight framed a reasonable exploration, I think

    Partially just cause he remains having good posts

    Partially because we just lose to zack collectively anyways

    and like, I can see a bit of how his style, might, if I'm modeling it correctly, lead to him getting this stuff wrong.
  11. Day 3#3897

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread maybe for the groupthing "towncore" the game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#3895)
    i don’t even get why he’s focusing on vanity saying “before today we didn’t know the game was hard” because like… that seems true to me? today nearly everyone in the collective PoE either flipped town or claimed vig, so i would definitely say the game feels a lot harder and that seems like a nonissue to take with vanity’s posts
    maybe for the groupthing "towncore" the game seemed easy

    but for those of us who thought amrock was villagy, lime was fine? probably?, and katze was defacto rand the entire game felt hard and it feels classically "oops lolus" wolf behavior

    epecesially when the "hard world" is me and ladd? ladd, who's been pushed by villagers all game, and me? who was barely here d2 and kind of townread but mostly ignored until I got tinfoiled d1?
  12. Day 3#3886

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread I’m planning on it Other words later maybe

    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#3871)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#3828)
    apogee, it would help my read on you to see you explore who’s wolfing with ladd assuming i’m a villager (or you can talk more about why you think i’m a wolf with ladd but that’s a waste if you’re v)

    if you’re locked in on ladd being a wolf casing him more thoroughly and showing who you think is teamed with him is a good use of your time

    because honestly i still don’t know why you’re so confident he’s a wolf aside from “he’s alive and hasn’t pushed wolves,” and i feel like you’ve been talking a lot in vague abstractions about your issues with his posts without actually getting down to brass tacks and pointing out more concrete issues you have with his posts


    out for real
    @Apogee not sure if you missed this or just don’t plan on doing it

    but i still feel like you (and also spf kinda) haven’t really explained clearly why ladd is wolfy

    i see you throw around a lot of buzzwords like “halfway rule” and “negative space” and “ladd is alive/wrong,” and while i understand what these words mean, i also… kind of don’t?

    and i feel like you haven’t actually “busted out the crayons,” as zack says, and explained exactly what your issues with his posts are in more concrete terms

    and at least imo, you’ve done the least today in terms of exploring team fits, weighing multiple worlds and who makes the most sense with ladd, which is kind of alarming given fmpov you seem the most confident of anyone in your worldview (i.e. that he’s a wolf)

    i feel like there’s a disconnect in the confidence you have for your view being correct and the amount of WORK you’ve put in to substantiate it, and it makes me worried you’re a wolf just trying to brute force stuff through

    your play this day feels one-track and agenda’d to me in a way that zack’s, vanity’s and even ladd’s don’t really, and you don’t seem to have that villagery uncertainty/paranoia

    with how the game is going, it just seems kinda concerning for you to have this narrow a worldview - you’re playing this day like a bulldozer and i just don’t really think it fits the game state

    at the same time, i’ve gotten similar feelings as zack that you may just be a villager playing weird who’s getting piled on because of it so i dunno
    I’m planning on it

    Other words later maybe
  13. Day 3#3862

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread right. is ladd and I a world that has any...

    right.

    is ladd and I a world that has any business making this a "hard game"
  14. Day 3#3860

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread this game has too many instances of people...

    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#3858)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#3855)
    anyways it's pretty ??? to pretend I didn't just post a bunch of words about SPF and not engage with that in the slightest

    like, you're now advocating I'm pocketing SPF to chop ladd, my only other possible partner iyo? Why would I do that and instead not just engage my previous hesitancy on SPF and put together some words on why SPF fits and appeal to zack harder or something and pivot there with ladd as opposed to the two of us doing some on again off again kill the other thing that leads to me in name voteparking on him?
    then demonstrate how you engaged that post

    because your posts certainly didn't seem like you wrote any sort of words on that particular spf post other than just "i agree!"

    like, how do you agree with it
    this game has too many instances of people writing three paragraph posts to respond to four paragraph posts already

    I thought it was an interesting and probably villagy perspective on a trend with ladd, which was his casing never quite got to a holistic picture in my mind that felt fully natural
  15. Day 3#3859

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread van earlier you said that "we didn't realize the...

    van earlier you said that "we didn't realize the game was hard until today"

    reconcile that with me being a wolf lol

    I have no clue how I'd be supposed to make the game hard
  16. Day 3#3857

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread I mean pure self meta But I find it way way...

    Quote Originally Posted by ladd (#3842)
    - linked to point above, it's a lot easier for a wolf to make a village case (even on a wolf teammate who is posting well) rather than bury a villager, alas the spf villa case they made

    - and linked to point above, they have had by far the weakest game in terms of actually constructing wolf reads
    I mean pure self meta

    But I find it way way easier to write halfway okay wolfreads as a wolf than get to anything approaching my better village reads as a villager

    which, I think regardless of correctness, I've made a few of at points

    like there are multiple people here who should hardconfirm I'm literally incapable of being a wolf in a game for two days or more without writing some tryhard wallcase

    also I got an F in self meta forgery class, which would imply I am incapable of forging my self meta
  17. Day 3#3855

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread anyways it's pretty ??? to pretend I didn't just...

    anyways it's pretty ??? to pretend I didn't just post a bunch of words about SPF and not engage with that in the slightest

    like, you're now advocating I'm pocketing SPF to chop ladd, my only other possible partner iyo? Why would I do that and instead not just engage my previous hesitancy on SPF and put together some words on why SPF fits and appeal to zack harder or something and pivot there with ladd as opposed to the two of us doing some on again off again kill the other thing that leads to me in name voteparking on him?
  18. Day 3#3854

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/72551177482...

    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#3853)
    he posted a thumbs up to your post, called you a villager for it, and yet didn't do any of the work necessary to see if that actually holds up. he's not evaluating your post in a way that's trying to give you feedback or figure the game out himself, he's agreeing with the post and calling you a villager because it fits the narrative he's created today.


    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#3853)
    maybe that's a sign that i'm tunneling apogee but the machinations that his posts ooze feel so wolfy.
  19. Day 3#3827

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread IMO, SPF's description of her own play is correct...

    IMO, SPF's description of her own play is correct here. I think, on the whole, she has stayed away from the more wolfy aspects of her meta, where you feel more like SPF wants to hold a boot to the thread and grind resistance into dust. Not a ton to say off the cuff here, because its a broad trend // trying to prove an absence, but I think at some point this kind of clicked subconsciously and informed other parts of my read.

    accidentally buried this in a quote in the wall, this should have been following the second to last quote in my wall re: spf
  20. Day 3#3824

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    31,672

    Game Thread oh wait I'm thinking of the hydra game okay...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#3823)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#3821)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#3816)
    i will say it kinda reminds me of last mash where he was a wolf and came in immediately hard bussing super but then completely backed off it and flipped to v reading her when people disagreed
    was this where he accidentally bussed tho or was that a different mash

    can't keep em straight
    it was shots mash


    Quote Originally Posted by ladd. (#562)
    Quote Originally Posted by Super (#444)
    twice voting a doctor claim is scummy af
    this post is wolfier
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd. (#599)
    ##Vote Super


    i wont be able to post almost at all until wednesday, if for some unlucky reason I am alive

    I am hoping to just die in an event or to an apoc shot


    adjust your expectations accordingly



    i think creature/dya are villagers. wiggles seemed kinda wolfy

    super post about twice seems calssic wolf voting a villager for something that looks wolfy but really is not
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd. (#712)
    Quote Originally Posted by Super (#115)
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#97)
    vul you

    do realize ur the only one trying

    except neo who may or may not be rting
    why are you so sure they're reaction testing you? are you nervous or something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Super (#232)
    Twice I'm waiting for you to obnoxiously tunnel someone and read no one else the entire game, until then your play so far has been pinging me
    Quote Originally Posted by Super (#255)
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgard (#236)
    Wolfy.
    don't you think he is playing vastly different from last game?
    Quote Originally Posted by Super (#265)
    Quote Originally Posted by sierra (#246)
    I've seen him do that as wolf
    tunnel and refuse to read other players?
    Quote Originally Posted by Super (#437)
    ##Vote Twice Shrunk
    this seems like a wolf who is just starting from a twice wolf read and walking backwards to justify it considering that 1) twice voted neo literally 6 posts after his claim and acussing someone of being a wolf for this is "wolf voting something thats bad not wolfy" 101 and

    2) telling them what they expect them to do if they are a villager isnt really something you usually do to someone you are wolfreading...if you actually care about it
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd. (#1967)
    Quote Originally Posted by Happy (#1884)
    @ladd read supers iso again and change ur vote

    This is not a hit imo
    i have been reading their posts, nothing is really changing my mind. why ar ethey a villager?



    i'll try to pop in between now and eod to see if I should change my vote tho
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd. (#3073)
    Quote Originally Posted by Happy (#2037)
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd. (#1967)
    i have been reading their posts, nothing is really changing my mind. why ar ethey a villager?



    i'll try to pop in between now and eod to see if I should change my vote tho
    Just trust me and change your vote

    But in short, I feel like she’s genuinely solving based off her wagon. Her tone towards her voters is pretty inquisitive rather than reactive (which is what I would expect from her as a wolf in her first mash)

    P#1800 is towny and if you think otherwise tell me

    And I think her being critical of me and shutting down my defense of her isn’t the approach she would be taking rn as a wolf p#1684 p#1783

    (If I’m somehow wrong on this read then as mafia she kinda has to keep me alive anyways since I’m one of her only defenders and if u die and flip town then I’ll re-eval my read on her but she defs shouldn’t be the d1 vote @ladd)
    WHere? I got the opposite impression from their posts towards me

    i basically disgree with every post you mentioned here being villagery lol they are all wolfy or null to me




    Maybe I'll switch to someone else anywya tho
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd. (#3478)
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd. (#3445)
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#3434)
    @ladd before you leave, who are we gonna cfd?

    i was thinking wiggles/vr
    vr is butterscotch right?


    lemme give them a read real quick, iirc they are an obvious villager when v


    wiggles cfd is
    sorry, i am too tired to process an iso. I read it but didnt process much, I saw nothing wrong but iirc visor thought she was a wolf too so go with god



    i'd also suggest a pshyco cfd or a super cfs (since they are not a wagon anymore)


    I'll prob leave my vote on one of them

    @benneh
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd. (#3707)
    ##Vote Super
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd. (#3971)
    no dayvig



    i am gonna go to sleep

    putting a watcher on me prob isnt the worst tho

    ##Vote Super


    gl guis
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd. (#4902)
    also wiggles prolly a wolf and should be killed in itas

    champ too (I shot him)



    maybe still kill super as well? dunno
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd. (#4955)
    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#4920)
    Shotlist:

    Champ
    Wiggles
    Insomnia
    Super


    idk if this is good so far or not tho


    looks good to me. let insomnia claim tho

    ironically I am the most undecided on super lol


    also if wiggles is a wolf, we have to figure out what to do with the bunch of wolfy/low posters voting him (e.g. psycho)
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd. (#4967)
    happy, ar eyou still positive super is a villager?


    I am reading the posts i missed and their long post seems like a word salad (esp the villa read on you) and their reasoning for pushing benneh "cause they told people to vote someone" just feels like his reasoning to wolf read twice, alas bad


    but i noted that sierra told me i was wrong so shrug.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd. (#5150)
    @Super you are not getting shot today anymore

    teh stage is yours


    who do you wanna kill et all
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd. (#5165)
    Quote Originally Posted by Happy (#5159)
    Fwiw I’ll drop the super shield after the first itas, if y’all still find her scummy then do what you want. But if she’s town I want her to experience an ita sesh without being shot at lol
    fair enuf


    if i dont get dayvigged in 15 misn they are probably a villager

    your move wolves

    after this he stopped pushing her at all and said she was spewed v by another wolf
    oh wait I'm thinking of the hydra game

    okay nevermind

    I'll consider it
  21. Day 3#3821

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread was this where he accidentally bussed tho or was...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#3816)
    i will say it kinda reminds me of last mash where he was a wolf and came in immediately hard bussing super but then completely backed off it and flipped to v reading her when people disagreed
    was this where he accidentally bussed tho or was that a different mash

    can't keep em straight
  22. Day 3#3817

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread okay I will go in to this later then I think...

    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#3815)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#3813)
    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#3812)
    my last thought before going to bed tonight is i'm still unsure how apogee came to the conclusion that ladd's posts suffer from negative space. like that read seems fake to me

    i haven't read apogee's spf case yet but, again, tired
    because perhaps this is the difference in terminology, and that seems good to figure out before I explain why I disagree, are you implying negative space is applied to ladd's posts, as in applying negative space to multiple posts, or ladd's "posts" / ISO, across many posts?

    I operate under the second
    to me, negative space as a concept describes a general lack of villageriness across an entire iso

    so i think i'm also operating under the second principle
    okay I will go in to this later then

    I think it's mostly clearer when you look at how he gets to reads on people broadly

    fwiw both amrock and spf have expressed analogous reads to this
  23. Day 3#3813

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    31,672

    Game Thread because perhaps this is the difference in...

    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#3812)
    my last thought before going to bed tonight is i'm still unsure how apogee came to the conclusion that ladd's posts suffer from negative space. like that read seems fake to me

    i haven't read apogee's spf case yet but, again, tired
    because perhaps this is the difference in terminology, and that seems good to figure out before I explain why I disagree, are you implying negative space is applied to ladd's posts, as in applying negative space to multiple posts, or ladd's "posts" / ISO, across many posts?

    I operate under the second
  24. Day 3#3808

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread staypositivefriend hope I caught you before sleep...

    @staypositivefriend hope I caught you before sleep

    inb4 I enact my nefarious plan of delaying walls to sleep deprive villagers
  25. Day 3#3807

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread Okay a bit tired so I'm going to towncase SPF in...

    Okay a bit tired so I'm going to towncase SPF in kind of a "deconstructed wallpost" where instead of grabbing a million examples I grab specific quotes to highlight phenomena and then go into some discussion of them

    That being said here we go:

    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#2145)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#2143)
    or i guess it’s more accurate to say that i don’t understand how him seemingly being consistently disingenuous makes the behavior less indicative of him being a wolf

    to me it makes the behavior more indicative of him being a wolf because it makes it more likely there’s something causing him to constantly approach things in bad faith, like having a wolf win condition

    this might be getting too in the weeds though
    my thought throughout a lot of d1 was that amrock was pushing me disingenuously in a strategic way - for the sake of diminishing my potential influence in the thread and for the sake of having someone that he could uncritically push on. i felt like he was treating my slot differently than he was treating other slots, which is something that tends to happen a lot with wolves that are looking for people to push on (kind of like how newcomb pushed on me on d1 of the rocks fall game)

    when i realized that he was treating everyone in the same way he was treating me, it lowered the chances that his treatment of me was strategic and increased the chances that it's a personality/playstyle thing, which made his treatment of me throughout d1 look less wolfy in hindsight

    tbh i feel like i'm explaining this poorly and it's a very convoluted train of thought - it's not that him being disingenous to everyone makes him less likely to be a wolf, just that him being disingenuous to everyone changed some preconceptions i had about how he was treating me
    So, first off, it's pretty clear this is a "good post" TM, which is fine on its own merits. I could point to plenty of other "good post" TMs in SPF's ISO. I could do so for most people. What this post is an exemplar of, IMO, is one of several SPF "good posts" that I am increasingly likely to believe does not come from a place of TMI. Obviously, the specific reasons for different posts vary, but there is an overarching trend of SPF's most villagy posts being something I think are harder for wolves to right than just being good makes them.

    Here specifically, as an example, pretend SPF is a wolf who knows Amrock is a villager, and lets assume she can pick up on him treating her "disingenuously" equally well as alignment. There are several layers I don't know if wolves commonly get too here. The first is the implementation of the "strategic" angle. I think its just harder for wolves to present the perspective of villagers being wolves having strategy. I think then the recognization and comparison to how he treats others is then also somewhat harder, although not impossible, for wolves. Perhaps the clincher is the description of chances internally. I don't know why I find this last paragraph unlikely to come from a wolf fully, probably something about how it strikes just the right balance in seeming to not know Amrock is an alignment and then playing further from that (which I think it would more often if a wolf knew Amrock in this situation was a villager) but like I do buy it lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#2433)
    does anyone have any non-meta related reasons to townread apogee? i do agree that he's playing a significantly townier game than CoV and that his thoughts are a lot more fluid/complex

    my main concern about him is that i feel like i've been in this mindset of: "oh, apogee's posts haven't been all that great lately, but i'm sure that they'll pick up soon" for a while now, and it ....hasn't really happened yet. when i look at apogee's posts today, it's hard to not feel like he's struggling to know what to post in general, and i feel like most of my TR on him is predicated on the strength of his early d1 posting
    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#2442)
    fwiw my gut actually tells me that apogee is more likely to be town than not but i cant really reconcile that gut feeling with actual reasoning, which is why im trying to find a more solid reason to clear him
    This is getting my usual caveat that I am bad into reading other's reads on myself, but of every player in the game, SPF's progression on me has felt somewhere between the most rational and villagy -- I'm making this split because I don't think rational progressions are neccesarily villagy. Some of it comes back to just what I think are fitting comments at fitting times, but it ... resonates, almost? at a lot of different points. Whatever a reverse empty space read is -- a full space doesn't really sound right -- where there is a lack of things that normally ping me about how people read me when wolfing without being so kind of .. either pockety or basic/purely logic only that is also how wolves writing completely inoffensive reads work.

    Idk if this made sense at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#1567)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#1562)
    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#1555)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#1552)
    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#1550)
    the wagons feel weirdly stagnant for how close we are to the EOD
    nod

    something for the living to examine d3
    cant believe you just TMI'd that youre going to be alive on d2
    the d3 was intentionally

    I think you're memeing but there was no expectation of me living or dying required to understand the point of that post
    if that wasn't a typo then i actually dont understand why you said d3 instead of d2

    but i dont think it matters right now
    Okay so I thought about why I thought SPF's EOD1 was better in retrospect and I'm sure not fully certain -- although I do think that it feels more natural and less of my initial concerns on a reread, which I think I touched on, and some of the empoof stuff looks good (I am not fully certain why I started lowering the odds of a bus, which I think is possible but n2 me thought it was increasingly less likely for reasons) -- but there's a trend I really like I think where SPF's post shape fits the time of day in a very natural way, and I can almost see how her perspective as a villager informs that.

    You could probably make a slightly skewed right bell curve with how SPF's post length looks over the course of the day, there's a kind of .. rhythm, or starting the day with medium sized hits on specific things informed by EOD or flips, into broader analysis, into a more rapid flurry EOD. And it just feels ... natural? The kind of thing a villager does subconsciously while wolves don't really think to fake? Why I am singling this out for SPF I can't really say -- it might also apply to other's. But it struck me as villagy on a reread, so I'm going to talk about it here lmao.

    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#2500)
    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#2498)
    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#2495)
    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#2491)
    Quote Originally Posted by Amrock (#2488)
    I mean, it's not meta based, it's just knowledge of the fact that SPF is a super strong villager and I would just... imagine they would save one of their only v reads if they were up for being voted out for EoD? Like I would have fought like HELL if one of my few villagers was being considered (which to be fair was only Hally and Riki, but still)
    huh?

    @staypositivefriend how do you usually treat village reads that you have that are getting wagoned?

    also can you address my prior thing too, since i pinged you?
    tbh i'm not sure how to answer this because it's so dependent on the context - i am not the type of player that will loudly demand that people stop voting for my townreads unless i feel incredibly confident that theyre town and unless they are actively in danger of dying

    in a case where one of my townreads is in danger of dying and i'm not thrilled with any of the existing wagons, i usually go out of my way to create new wagons or navigate people to different options (which is more or less what i did with lissa toward the EOD1)

    amrock's understanding of my meta and how i play as town in the last 2 posts is ....not great, regardless of his alignment

    also sorry, what other thing are you talking about?
    IMO, SPF's description of her own play is correct here. I think, on the whole, she has stayed away from the more wolfy aspects of her meta, where you feel more like SPF wants to hold a boot to the thread and grind resistance into dust. Not a ton to say off the cuff here, because its a broad trend // trying to prove an absence, but I think at some point this kind of clicked subconsciously and informed other parts of my read.

    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#2486)
    Quote Originally Posted by Amrock (#2483)
    I don't understand SPF and their read on vanity. If they were so incredibly strong on vanity, why didn't they push more to save them EOD1? That feels like something v!spf would do. I just feel like you are repping this incredibly strong read on vanity but not actually trying to save them from like

    Me
    Ladd

    Idk who else

    Who thinks they are a wolf. Like you aren't refuting any points, any anything, didn't try and save them EoD1 (unless I missed this, then can you point it out)


    Why are you so strongly townreading vanity anyway?
    can you show me something that lines up with spf trying to save her v reads on d1?

    also i'm not sure if their read now and their read on eod1 are the same or really comparable. idk i'd need spf to clarify

    ^see there spf. would like to know if your read on me has evolved from eod1 to now
    this post. particularly what was bolded

    your answer basically confirms to me that it's a bizarre point from amrock to say "spf should've fought against the vanity wagon harder" when to me you seem very much like a calm and collected player that doesn't usually do that, so i'm not sure why amrock is substantiating his argument with "i would've hard defended a strong village read if i was a villager!"

    it just doesn't really fit right. i get amrock doesn't have a ton of experience with you, but i feel like i haven't played with you a lot either, and "playstyle differences" seems like a really obvious answer here
    amrock has only played with me as a wolf, and my wolfgame actually is quite aggressive and domineering and focused on steering the chops in an ideal direction - it's possible that amrock is just assuming that i take a similar approach to mafia as both alignments, without realizing that my wolfgame tends to be more aggressive and my towngame tends to be more pulled back and analytical

    at least, that's the most generous interpretation of amrock's point that i can think of right now lol

    and my read on you has developed since d1, in the sense that i feel slightly more confident that youre probably just town, but it's not really something i'd be able to explain without putting a lot of careful thought into it (which i cant do rn cause i'm multi-tasking). that said, i think that a lot of the core reasoning i had to townread you for on d1 is still applicable to my read on you today as well
    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#3086)
    i'm more frustrated with myself than anything after that EOD but i'm not sure if it would even be beneficial to talk about it too much

    ive been repping the very specific towncore of vanity/hally/zack for the entirety of this game and the fact that all of us are alive today after a series of baffling nightkills (well, i'm assuming that lime was the nk and psycho was the vig shot) significantly increases the likelihood that im misreading someone in this game and getting pocketed by someone

    i'm not going to base any reads off of this assumption, but if the wolves were trying to create paranoia with those kills, they did a good job lol
    And finally, there's just really good posts about mindset. Unfakable, no, necessarily displaying a lack of TMI, no, but en masse and used in kind of a not-performative but readable way I think they're a villagy presence. Post above is an example, I could point out a solid chunk more.

    -------------------

    Alright that's kind of the pillars of my SPF townread -- some of this is me laying out things that have been churning subconciously // recognizing them more, some of this is new, some of this is things I've known or reevaluation

    Happy to talk more I think

    feeling a bit better about the game at large and yeah
  26. Day 3#3804

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread if you're around for 10-15 more minutes you'll...

    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#3803)
    i'm more or less done posting for the night (watching a movie soon and idk if i'll feel like posting after that), and i'm honestly not sure how much i'll be able to post before the deadline tomorrow because i have a ton of work to catch up on after the long weekend

    so uh, last call to ask me questions or ask for ur horoscope or w/e. i will be here an hour before the EOD but i cant make any guarantees beyond that
    if you're around for 10-15 more minutes you'll get a mini wall on you from me

    idk if that interests you but

    if you'd rather talk about something else I'll be here ig
  27. Day 3#3800

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread can that be the spf towncase

    can that be the spf towncase
  28. Day 3#3799

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/72551177482...

    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#3797)
    ive noticed that wolves will tend to think in two distinct modes when they're talking about players: "Evaluating" and "Not Evaluating"

    when a wolf finds a good reason to townread or wolfread someone, they generally switch from "Evaluating" that person to "Not Evaluating" that person, whereas town are always in a constant state of evaluation by the virtue of being uninformed

    so, it's common for wolves to make inquisitive posts about a players alignment before they state a read on them, because they are still in "Evaluation" mode, but when that wolf finds a good reason to townread them or wolfread them, their work is done, and they enter "Not Evaluating" mode. when they're in this mode, it is remarkably rare for them to change their minds or develop new reasoning to justify their reads, unless they are specifically prompted to by another player (or by the gamestate). similarly, this is why it's common for wolves to repeat themselves and circle back to the exact same talking points, because their worldview isn't fluidly changing and developing like a villagers is

    when i look at ladd's progression on vanity, it feels distinctly to me like ladd is doing the exact same thing - he opened the game by making a ton of posts that are uncertain/inquisitive toward vanity's alignment, and he interacted with vanity very frequently. when ladd found good enough reasons to townread vanity (ie: p#2899), his attitude toward her changed in a pretty dramatic way; he stopped asking her nearly as many questions, he stopped talking about her as much in general, and he stopped showing any signs that he was in the active process of considering vanity's alignment. it feels like ladd has treated vanity in a fairly binary way, and moved from being unsure of her alignment to being thunderously certain of her alignment in a way that might indicate that he doesn't actually care about figuring out her alignment

    ....i was trying to figure out a way to articulate why ladd's progression on vanity was bothering me so much, and this is what came out. it might be total nonsense to everyone else here but at least i found a way to put it into words lol
  29. Day 3#3796

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread I feel like most people were aware of this but it...

    I feel like most people were aware of this but it felt worthwhile to state explicitly

    the other interesting gamestate thing is that

    hally/zack have been pretty synched up most of the game, both agree on that even

    and its felt like some combination of spf, vanity, or both have drifted into and out of that lockstep

    see: d1 SOD pressure on van, hally/spf/van/zack on me SOD3, some stuff around amrock (maybe less van there?)
  30. Day 3#3794

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread while I'm piecing together spf in the background...

    while I'm piecing together spf in the background

    There's been three explicit dichotomies I've seen advocated in this game

    1. Ladd/vanity
    2. Ladd/Amrock
    3. Ladd/Panther

    there's a very basic reason for this to be striking, and it suggests one of two things, but I kind of want it to be noted ig.
  31. Day 3#3793

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread okay that wasn't the right postnumber but you all...

    okay that wasn't the right postnumber but you all know the one
  32. Day 3#3792

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread anyways since it came back up I was struck by the...

    anyways since it came back up I was struck by the fact that my P#268 or whatever post about van being threadspewed like looks better again know that I know there is a wolf in hally/zack/spf (unless, again, van)
  33. Day 3#3791

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread that's a good $%#! way of putting one of my issues...

    that's a good $%#! way of putting one of my issues with ladd's reads.
  34. Day 3#3790

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread :y:

    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#3787)
    start of his read on you and not the ending of his read on you,
  35. Day 3#3789

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread okay fair maybe I missed a lot of d2 but...

    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#3788)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#3786)
    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#3785)
    i think we only really realized how hard the game actually was today
    mmm?
    oh. you're here.

    anyways, the point is is that psycho/lime/amrock were all in a lot of people's poe's, and as soon as they are flip village, we're going to realize that there's a deep wolf in the game and that it's super hard, that's all that point meant. obviously the game was always going to be hard but there's extents to how hard the game actually is
    okay fair maybe

    I missed a lot of d2 but amrock and lime were both like. slightly higher up my POE so I guess I felt harder earlier

    then again finding anyone for the bottom of my POE is difficult so maybe I'm just strugglebussing

    I'm working on ISOing spf now fwiw
  36. Day 3#3786

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread mmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#3785)
    i think we only really realized how hard the game actually was today
    mmm?
  37. Day 3#3761

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread like if I named a specific team, yes if I had...

    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#3758)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#3756)
    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#3749)
    actually i'm really curious who apogee thinks that ladd is partnered with - have you talked about that at all, apogee? (and sorry if you have and i forgot)
    I've said I don't think ladd is strongly disassociated from anyone outside of vanity and ofc panther if you leave aside my independent reads.

    Ladd/hally like, has filled my head a fair bit I admit, but if I wrong on you, it could be you, it could maybe be zack although I agree a bit on the nose, yes
    so ladd/hally is your GTH answer?
    like if I named a specific team, yes

    if I had to name the most two likely wolves on their own merits, idk
  38. Day 3#3760

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread okay is it villagy or wolfy nonsense like,...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#3754)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#3746)
    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#3727)
    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#3719)
    in a world where me/apogee are W/W then he would probably want to distance from me as much as possible instead of tying himself to me for no reason too, so that argument doesnt really make sense
    this is a bit of wifom but it makes sense. usually wolves don't just hard align like that because it pretty much just adds fuel to the fire of villager's brains. if anything it's plausibly wolfier of apogee to defend you like that for that exact reason of trying to get us to think that you/him are w/w

    or if apogee wants to explain why he's defending you so far then that would be appreciated
    I've talked about this geez

    The most serious concise answer I can give is I sponged up the thread overnight and you and spf are the two people in the game that don't really fit wolf shaped holes
    you realize this sounds like complete nonsense, right?
    okay

    is it villagy or wolfy nonsense

    like, I quoted all the legacies of the villagers, 4/6 called spf villager, 1/6 called SPF most villagy in POE, 1/6 had no real spf opinion (note I'm counting both kat and psycho)

    and I just like, skimmed things

    read posts

    thats how all reads form anyways ime I can't make reads by like, scanning for lists of tells

    I could go and find things now that I think make SPF villagy because I know they exist but I can't point to the reasons I found spf villagy last night because they weren't like specifically enumerated

    if I've dragged out a retrospective as opposed to a current view, and you're more interested in current apogee towncasing spf, then I apologize for misunderstanding and will put that on the docket, but I've thought you're more interested in the past
  39. Day 3#3756

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread I've said I don't think ladd is strongly...

    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#3749)
    actually i'm really curious who apogee thinks that ladd is partnered with - have you talked about that at all, apogee? (and sorry if you have and i forgot)
    I've said I don't think ladd is strongly disassociated from anyone outside of vanity and ofc panther if you leave aside my independent reads.

    Ladd/hally like, has filled my head a fair bit I admit, but if I wrong on you, it could be you, it could maybe be zack although I agree a bit on the nose, yes
  40. Day 3#3753

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread he feels more like playing a "second man" role?...

    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#3740)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#3738)
    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#3699)
    the best thing i can say about zack today is that his posts feel "urgent" and solve-y in a way that would likely not be necessary if he as a wolf. if zack was a wolf in this position (regardless of who his partner is), it would be pretty easy for him to spin his wheels and go through the motions of solving since the chances of him actually being in danger are extremely low

    which makes the fact that so many of his posts have been so pointed/focused on having fruitful conversation bode well for him, i think? my intuition tells me that if i'm misreading someone in the trinity of vanity/hally/zack, it would likely be zack, but i would be lying if i said that i think his posts today are actually wolfy (even though a few moments have made me squint)
    uh

    wat

    I'm not sure zack's posts today are wolfy but this does not seem to reflect his position
    how so?
    he feels more like playing a "second man" role? Urgent might fight, solvy like, I wouldn't say he hasn't been solvy but maybe more inquisitive, if that difference makes sense? I think pointed is far, focused on conversation is fair

    maybe I just read the first paragraph differently and we're closer than I thought or something idk
  41. Day 3#3748

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread Like, I am not so incompetent a wolf that I can't...

    Like, I am not so incompetent a wolf that I can't go read SPF's d2 posts over again and write some goodish words about my v read on her and pretend that those were precisely what I read overnight that changed my mind

    But that's not what happened so
  42. Day 3#3746

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread I've talked about this geez The most serious...

    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#3727)
    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#3719)
    in a world where me/apogee are W/W then he would probably want to distance from me as much as possible instead of tying himself to me for no reason too, so that argument doesnt really make sense
    this is a bit of wifom but it makes sense. usually wolves don't just hard align like that because it pretty much just adds fuel to the fire of villager's brains. if anything it's plausibly wolfier of apogee to defend you like that for that exact reason of trying to get us to think that you/him are w/w

    or if apogee wants to explain why he's defending you so far then that would be appreciated
    I've talked about this geez

    The most serious concise answer I can give is I sponged up the thread overnight and you and spf are the two people in the game that don't really fit wolf shaped holes
  43. Day 3#3742

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread why is ladd a villager

    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#3715)
    if apogee is a wolf i feel like he spewed spf as a wolf via his progression on her because i don’t know why he would randomly decide to hard clear her today when he could easily not defend her today if he wanted to

    i guess he decided to link himself to spf more once ladd floated that world to give the illusion it’s correct after he flips, and ladd could even be the other wolf in that world

    but i dunno, i feel like he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar trying to power wolf with spf because he figured they were both in good enough thread position to clear each other and run a truck over ladd
    why is ladd a villager
  44. Day 3#3738

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread uh wat I'm not sure zack's posts today are...

    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#3699)
    the best thing i can say about zack today is that his posts feel "urgent" and solve-y in a way that would likely not be necessary if he as a wolf. if zack was a wolf in this position (regardless of who his partner is), it would be pretty easy for him to spin his wheels and go through the motions of solving since the chances of him actually being in danger are extremely low

    which makes the fact that so many of his posts have been so pointed/focused on having fruitful conversation bode well for him, i think? my intuition tells me that if i'm misreading someone in the trinity of vanity/hally/zack, it would likely be zack, but i would be lying if i said that i think his posts today are actually wolfy (even though a few moments have made me squint)
    uh

    wat

    I'm not sure zack's posts today are wolfy but this does not seem to reflect his position
  45. Day 3#3735

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread :sparkleshrug: I've laid out what I got

    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#3673)
    i don’t want apogee seemingly being unable to explain how his spf read got from where it was D1 -> D2 -> now to get lost in the shuffle because it feels like an important point

    i’m hesitant to rake people over the coals for a bad progression because i know villagers can have unclear progressions too, but his explanation feels like it contradicts what his posts actually show


    I've laid out what I got
  46. Day 3#3734

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread yes no that was literally P#3645 in the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#3730)
    try and change my mind
    yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#3730)
    pick my brain
    no

    that was literally P#3645 in the first place
  47. Day 3#3731

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread oh wat that's a laddavi.gif moment kind of

    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#3659)
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd (#3655)
    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#3650)

    is it more likely that ladd is having a super off game or that he's a wolf that's trying to get away with powerwolfing and making the wrong pushes for as long as possible before he gets killed?
    this seems like an extremely manipulative thing to say



    out for real now
    what's manipulative about that? serious question. it's something that i'm genuinely considering in my mind and wasn't intended to be a way to sway everyone else
    oh wat

    that's a laddavi.gif moment kind of
  48. Day 3#3729

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladd (#3655)
    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#3650)

    is it more likely that ladd is having a super off game or that he's a wolf that's trying to get away with powerwolfing and making the wrong pushes for as long as possible before he gets killed?
    this seems like an extremely manipulative thing to say



    out for real now
    eh?
  49. Day 3#3728

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
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    Game Thread Generally trying to convince people that they're...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#3652)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#3645)
    zack I'll walk back my obtuseness comments that was probably somewhat uncalled for

    but like. you rehashed the SOD nk thing not long ago without really engaging at all abict with the post that I put my entire process through

    now you're sitting around signalboosting ladd and v-reads on ladd and taking potshots at me and to an extent spf

    and like ?!?!
    I would've thought the last thing you'd want is for more back-and-forth on the nk thing lol good god, I have laid out pretty clearly why I disagree. I thought the "oh I'm used to mashes with ladd" comment or w/e the exact wording was meant you were walking it back a bit, I still think that reasoning to suspect ladd is not good but I don't want to argue about it more.

    I don't know what you're confused about. I've laid out my reasoning and logic, which afaik you did not engage with, and then you sit there and write a bunch of question marks like I haven't explained myself at all but you aren't attempting to understand my mindset or convince me why I'm wrong. What are your reads? What worlds should I be considering? What am I doing wrong? You are not being helpful in the way you're going about this
    Generally trying to convince people that they're wrong doesn't work out that well, and I'm not sure why you'd focus on that element of something I should do

    I've talked about different reads over the course of the day, and will continue to

    My point in this quote was that approach feels completely orthogonal to what I'd expect at this point and I'm not sure why you're turning back a comment about me not understanding your approach onto me?
  50. Day 3#3645

    Thread: Best Flavor 13er

    by Apogee
    Replies
    4,632
    Views
    31,672

    Game Thread zack I'll walk back my obtuseness comments that...

    zack I'll walk back my obtuseness comments that was probably somewhat uncalled for

    but like. you rehashed the SOD nk thing not long ago without really engaging at all abict with the post that I put my entire process through

    now you're sitting around signalboosting ladd and v-reads on ladd and taking potshots at me and to an extent spf

    and like ?!?!
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The ITA Nerfer may each night target someone and reduce that player's basic ITA hit rate to 0% for the next day phase.