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    Resolved I'm stopping the use because people want me to...

    I'm stopping the use because people want me to stop and I'm a nice person.

    I wish they didn't want me to stop, but here we are.
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    Resolved That's what I'll use in my games from now on. ...

    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#69)
    Proposal 4.2.2

    At the end of any phase, henceforth any player eliminated from the game the post shall read

    ________ has been mothed


    Thank you
    That's what I'll use in my games from now on.

    Only instead of the word "moth" I will use
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    Resolved Rather impolite of you to imply someone is...

    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#67)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#57)
    Quote Originally Posted by hollowkatt (#49)
    I believe language matters and therefore personally will not use the "L" word moving forwards. I also think it behooves us as a community that does contain members of all races, classes, genders, and orientations to really think about the language that we use, it's connotations, and the way others who aren't us perceive and react to that language.

    We are all here to have a good time, enjoy arguing with each other about made up rules, alignments, and at the end of the day hopefully share some laughs about what happened in our games.

    If using problematic language impedes that enjoyment for others, why use it? Tradition, "they way we've always done it", and other reasons like that aren't good enough. We should be striving for more inclusivity, not less. Striving for a more understanding player base, not one stuck in its ways.

    Peace and Love,

    HK
    I like what you're saying here.

    I'm going to offer this: If anyone who is of color finds the use of the word "lynch" offensive, I ask them to PM me and let me know. And if I get such a PM, I will never use "lynch" on here again. But I still don't want it banned. I want to CHOOSE not say "lynch." And I will if that happens. On my honor.

    Your move, fellow members of the community.
    I am not white, and although I've played too much mafia and been too deep in the bubble to previously associate it with this, and out of respect for all the people that could be (a lot more) offended by it, I am against the use of the term.

    You are making it about race by using your privilege to offer your gentle services to stop using the term for POC who might be offended by it. You know some people are or even might be, that should be enough.
    Rather impolite of you to imply someone is offensive for using the term but "using your privilege" for not using it.
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    Resolved OK as a gesture of good faith, I'm not using the...

    OK as a gesture of good faith, I'm not using the word "lynch" any more.

    I'm done using it.

    Now, don't ban it!
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    Resolved Why can't I post logically and reasonably like...

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#62)
    adding optionality to modbot in terms of what flavor should be used for [the person who receives the most votes] seems like a no-brainer solution

    I'm ambivalent about specifically excluding "lynch" from said options; probably shouldn't be the default though

    the term "lynch" itself, outside of modbot flavor stuff, should not be banned under any circumstances

    $0.02
    Why can't I post logically and reasonably like you always do.

    I aspire to have your air, sir.
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    Resolved oh my gahhhhd the no-fun-allowed everything is...

    Quote Originally Posted by nutella (#51)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#31)
    our nice little gaming sanctuary.
    This perspective is not okay. This site is not your personal white privileged bubble. This site is not some magic place that's separate from reality. People come from diverse backgrounds to play here, and ensuring that it's welcoming and respectful to all is not "bringing politics" into it, it's necessary.
    oh my gahhhhd

    the no-fun-allowed everything is about race perspective

    ugh
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    Resolved I like what you're saying here. I'm going to...

    Quote Originally Posted by hollowkatt (#49)
    I believe language matters and therefore personally will not use the "L" word moving forwards. I also think it behooves us as a community that does contain members of all races, classes, genders, and orientations to really think about the language that we use, it's connotations, and the way others who aren't us perceive and react to that language.

    We are all here to have a good time, enjoy arguing with each other about made up rules, alignments, and at the end of the day hopefully share some laughs about what happened in our games.

    If using problematic language impedes that enjoyment for others, why use it? Tradition, "they way we've always done it", and other reasons like that aren't good enough. We should be striving for more inclusivity, not less. Striving for a more understanding player base, not one stuck in its ways.

    Peace and Love,

    HK
    I like what you're saying here.

    I'm going to offer this: If anyone who is of color finds the use of the word "lynch" offensive, I ask them to PM me and let me know. And if I get such a PM, I will never use "lynch" on here again. But I still don't want it banned. I want to CHOOSE not say "lynch." And I will if that happens. On my honor.

    Your move, fellow members of the community.
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    Resolved :heart: friends still?

    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#48)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#42)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#39)
    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#33)
    do you genuinely think any black person is gonna think "vote out" has A N Y negative connotations?
    No. Who said they are thinking that?

    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#33)
    Just because you say "come on i dare you to call me a troll", doesnt make you not a troll.
    I didn't say that. Why are you misquoting me, sir?
    oh, and upon re-reading what you said, you just implied I'm a troll

    well done

    I disagree with you, so I'm a troll.

    You win the argument, and the day. Well done.
    thanks i tried
    :heart: friends still?
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    Resolved co-signed And I would add that each player...

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralWu (#47)
    I don't think the word lynch should be banned because it's not being used in an offensive manner in a mafia game.

    A word can take on different meanings depending on how you use it. Just because it has one meaning that makes it bad doesn't mean it should be banned.
    co-signed

    And I would add that each player should be allowed to call it what they want, as long as they're not being offensive. Like, if you normally say "vote off," but only use the word "lynch" when talking about a player whose avatar is a picture of a black person, then you're probably not welcome in our community.
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    Resolved so you favor banning it?

    Quote Originally Posted by euklyd (#43)
    the term "lynch" should absolutely go

    execute is cool, banish/exile probably slot better into phrases that would replace lylo/mylo/mislynch

    i am actually entire in favor of a more lighthearted term tho ("yeet" works distressingly well)
    so you favor banning it?
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    Resolved oh, and upon re-reading what you said, you just...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#39)
    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#33)
    do you genuinely think any black person is gonna think "vote out" has A N Y negative connotations?
    No. Who said they are thinking that?

    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#33)
    Just because you say "come on i dare you to call me a troll", doesnt make you not a troll.
    I didn't say that. Why are you misquoting me, sir?
    oh, and upon re-reading what you said, you just implied I'm a troll

    well done

    I disagree with you, so I'm a troll.

    You win the argument, and the day. Well done.
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    Resolved No. Who said they are thinking that? I...

    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#33)
    do you genuinely think any black person is gonna think "vote out" has A N Y negative connotations?
    No. Who said they are thinking that?

    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#33)
    Just because you say "come on i dare you to call me a troll", doesnt make you not a troll.
    I didn't say that. Why are you misquoting me, sir?
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    Resolved man I just realized you went 3 for 3 on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#31)
    Quote Originally Posted by Amrock (#24)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#22)
    Quote Originally Posted by Amrock (#1)
    lynch
    Execute
    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#4)
    Execute
    Hang
    Quote Originally Posted by Timsup2nothin (#7)
    voted out
    Quote Originally Posted by Justplayingitcool (#9)
    Execute
    voted out
    Quote Originally Posted by atomicpianowitch (#11)
    hang
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#12)
    execute
    Amrock, I thought MU was a haven from politics. And before you say this isn't politics, this is decency-in-italics (apologies to Montecore), I assure you that the half of the country who voted for Trump doesn't think surrendering our language in an orgy of political correctness is the answer to life's problems or a window into anyone's soul.

    At the risk of being called "trolling" simply for disagreeing with you, here goes:

    All of the above words have had a place in the history of the oppression of people of color. A lot of genuinely guilty folks also experienced those words, of all colors. Were they also used to perpetuate injustice at times? Absolutely. So there is no better term if you're trying to remove all taint of oppression.

    I care more about having a fun time with a game than taking over what the word means. Every time we use the word lynch as we play this game, we create another example in the (Mafia) Universe of that word being a connotation for moving one step closer to winning a fun game among friends or at least people friendly to each other of all colors of the rainbow. So everyone should be allowed to call it what you want, but the default is and should remain "lynch," and the day that word is banned on Mafia Freaking Universe, I will do a JerrySeinfeld.MehIDKleavingTheatre.gif and scoot on out of here.

    This thread is just an example of the Left trying to silence speech. Like a wise man once said, "The Left considers violence it likes as speech, and considers speech it doesn't like as violence."
    1) You still haven't given a reason not to change it besides "free speech," which doesn't apply on a private site

    2) You are wrong that POC would find execute and lynch equally offensive. Source: Common sense, and also IRL experiences where people have said that explictly.

    3) If the fact that you would leave the site if we did the horror of changing the default from lynch is supposed to be some deterrent, it isn't working
    1) Thingy can do whatever the hell he wants, youre damn right it's a private site and if I don't like it, there's the door. I get it. I don't know why you're bringing that up. I'm a lawyer, I know damn well the limitations of the 1st amendment.

    2) I also never claimed what you are arguing against in #2. Starting to sense a pattern of strawmen here. Amrock, you really can't help yourself. You just have to bring your Lefty politics from the Discord political site which bans all conservative viewpoints and bring it to our nice little gaming sanctuary. Ugh.

    3) You're not a nice person. You're just not.
    man I just realized you went 3 for 3 on strawmen...I said I would leave the site if they banned "lynch" not if they changed the default

    I hope everyone pauses and really considers that amrock had to make 3 points and went 3 for 3 on strawman because I didn't argue the points he was ready to refute.

    I feel like I'm town and he's Mafia in F3 or something. Ugh.
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    Resolved I'd be happy if you're right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#26)
    It's not banning or trying to silence speech though?

    People are still freely allowed to use it, the goal is just to change the default to something more welcoming to people
    I'd be happy if you're right.
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    Resolved Amrock is the only one saying "free speech"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#30)
    this seems like it has potential to get uncivil very fast so I'm most likely just going to leave it at that

    but this isn't a free speech issue because no one is trying to change the words that are allowed to use on site
    Amrock is the only one saying "free speech" because he is trying to pretend that I typed something other than the words I typed so that I look like a clown because only a clown would claim that they have a right to free speech on a private site (note well I am not calling anyone a clown because no one is claiming that!)

    Chemist, if you think no one is trying to change what's allowed, I think you're not quite reading between the lines of these posts that they're making...
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    Resolved 1) Thingy can do whatever the hell he wants,...

    Quote Originally Posted by Amrock (#24)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#22)
    Quote Originally Posted by Amrock (#1)
    lynch
    Execute
    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#4)
    Execute
    Hang
    Quote Originally Posted by Timsup2nothin (#7)
    voted out
    Quote Originally Posted by Justplayingitcool (#9)
    Execute
    voted out
    Quote Originally Posted by atomicpianowitch (#11)
    hang
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#12)
    execute
    Amrock, I thought MU was a haven from politics. And before you say this isn't politics, this is decency-in-italics (apologies to Montecore), I assure you that the half of the country who voted for Trump doesn't think surrendering our language in an orgy of political correctness is the answer to life's problems or a window into anyone's soul.

    At the risk of being called "trolling" simply for disagreeing with you, here goes:

    All of the above words have had a place in the history of the oppression of people of color. A lot of genuinely guilty folks also experienced those words, of all colors. Were they also used to perpetuate injustice at times? Absolutely. So there is no better term if you're trying to remove all taint of oppression.

    I care more about having a fun time with a game than taking over what the word means. Every time we use the word lynch as we play this game, we create another example in the (Mafia) Universe of that word being a connotation for moving one step closer to winning a fun game among friends or at least people friendly to each other of all colors of the rainbow. So everyone should be allowed to call it what you want, but the default is and should remain "lynch," and the day that word is banned on Mafia Freaking Universe, I will do a JerrySeinfeld.MehIDKleavingTheatre.gif and scoot on out of here.

    This thread is just an example of the Left trying to silence speech. Like a wise man once said, "The Left considers violence it likes as speech, and considers speech it doesn't like as violence."
    1) You still haven't given a reason not to change it besides "free speech," which doesn't apply on a private site

    2) You are wrong that POC would find execute and lynch equally offensive. Source: Common sense, and also IRL experiences where people have said that explictly.

    3) If the fact that you would leave the site if we did the horror of changing the default from lynch is supposed to be some deterrent, it isn't working
    1) Thingy can do whatever the hell he wants, youre damn right it's a private site and if I don't like it, there's the door. I get it. I don't know why you're bringing that up. I'm a lawyer, I know damn well the limitations of the 1st amendment.

    2) I also never claimed what you are arguing against in #2. Starting to sense a pattern of strawmen here. Amrock, you really can't help yourself. You just have to bring your Lefty politics from the Discord political site which bans all conservative viewpoints and bring it to our nice little gaming sanctuary. Ugh.

    3) You're not a nice person. You're just not.
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    Resolved Do you think candidates of color have always had...

    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#23)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#22)
    Quote Originally Posted by Justplayingitcool (#9)
    voted out
    All of the above words have had a place in the history of the oppression of people of color.
    Do you think candidates of color have always had it easy? Voter suppression, poll taxes, rigged systems, you name it.

    --Zork, BA in history
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    Resolved Amrock, I thought MU was a haven from politics....

    Quote Originally Posted by Amrock (#1)
    lynch
    Execute
    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#4)
    Execute
    Hang
    Quote Originally Posted by Timsup2nothin (#7)
    voted out
    Quote Originally Posted by Justplayingitcool (#9)
    Execute
    voted out
    Quote Originally Posted by atomicpianowitch (#11)
    hang
    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#12)
    execute
    Amrock, I thought MU was a haven from politics. And before you say this isn't politics, this is decency-in-italics (apologies to Montecore), I assure you that the half of the country who voted for Trump doesn't think surrendering our language in an orgy of political correctness is the answer to life's problems or a window into anyone's soul.

    At the risk of being called "trolling" simply for disagreeing with you, here goes:

    All of the above words have had a place in the history of the oppression of people of color. A lot of genuinely guilty folks also experienced those words, of all colors. Were they also used to perpetuate injustice at times? Absolutely. So there is no better term if you're trying to remove all taint of oppression.

    I care more about having a fun time with a game than taking over what the word means. Every time we use the word lynch as we play this game, we create another example in the (Mafia) Universe of that word being a connotation for moving one step closer to winning a fun game among friends or at least people friendly to each other of all colors of the rainbow. So everyone should be allowed to call it what you want, but the default is and should remain "lynch," and the day that word is banned on Mafia Freaking Universe, I will do a JerrySeinfeld.MehIDKleavingTheatre.gif and scoot on out of here.

    This thread is just an example of the Left trying to silence speech. Like a wise man once said, "The Left considers violence it likes as speech, and considers speech it doesn't like as violence."
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    I will ease off the gas on the velocity of my...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#379)
    I mean, if your stance is that balance is not playerlist-dependant then we will absolutely have to agree to disagree. A setup that works for a group of players playing for the first time is not the same as a setup being used for a group of experienced players. Mafia is different than other games in this way. I don't have the stats for this on hand but I'm sure someone smarter than me could explain.

    Right, the "community" in this case is impossibly hard to define because there's some "MU meta" but it's also mostly strangers. That's one of the difficulties.

    A "strawman" is when someone props up a fake argument that no person actually has and argues against it. I'm not sure what you mean by strawman here as that does not seem relevant to the conversation.

    I'm not sure why this is trending towards either way when it is currently at 4-6 which is as close to 5-5 as you can get without being 5-5, and Mendel explained how we can read that statistic as of now.
    I will ease off the gas on the velocity of my opinions until we get to 17-20 games complete. Please understand that some of my sure-ness is based in the historical wolf-sidedness, not just the present roleset.
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    We're gonna just have to agree to disagree on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#377)
    i didn't say if it's "even possible", i said if it's even possible to do it in a way that wouldn't unbalanced rounds 2 and 3 if they used the same setup!

    balance is always in context of the community. if the balance has to account for towns being weaker, then that same balance when applied to a game of wildcards or finalists (theoretically much stronger) could then become unbalanced.

    personally i am not sold that qualifiers and future rounds must have the same setup.

    also we don't have conclusion yet on this years? so you can't say yet if it wasn't enough? we're still collecting the data aren't we? so far if its at 4-6 that's on a good track.

    also: "Sure, the skill of the Town is greater in semis than in qualifiers, but so is the skill of the Mafia. " There is evidence to suggest it doesn't scale linearly this way. Better players tends to lead to higher town winrate even if both teams are stronger, from what I have heard. I don't have numbers though, only anecdotal.

    "Additionally, these skilled future semis players are also populating a significant chunk of the qualifiers." This isn't quite how it works. A "skilled" town player, surrounded by players who, for example, are low effort, low posters, not experienced, etc, may not have much to work with. They may find it hard to read low-posting slots, or may find people resistant to listening to their ideas. You can debate how this informs whether or not they are truly skilled though.
    We're gonna just have to agree to disagree on this. A setup is either balanced or it's not. It doesn't depend on whether it's in round 1, 2, or 3.

    The whole "context of the community" is a strawman argument. Of course the balance should be sought based on the community. But in the case of Champs, I look at the community as a hybrid of the MU community and the temporary community of those playing in Champs.

    As for conclusions, yes it's premature for this year to be firm in any conclusions, but the trends we are seeing are consistent with the trend we've seen for years--discernibly mafia-sided.

    I mean, if you want to try next year to have a setup that is slightly town-sided balance for round 1 players and a slightly different setup in round 2 that is slightly mafia-sided, I'm all for such an experiment. I think I'll be proven right but I want to get it right, not be right.
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    I will grant that this year's setup moved in the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#375)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#374)
    We aren't just starting with Mafia. This isn't the first Champs season. Folks are in denial about the fact that they keep approving setups that keep trending almost exlusively mafia-sided, and in some cases extremely so. Why do I say they are in denial? Because they aren't adjusting their sense of what constitutes a balanced setup based on the feedback that all these results are providing, admittedly from different setups, but still, the one constant are the folks who said, yes, this is a balanced setup, and they just consistently are not.
    I just think you have a really incorrect perception of people's desires here. The only sentiment I've ever seen expressed by people (viewers and organizers) is that they are very aware of the wolf-siding issue and that they are always actively discussing it and trying to come up with solutions when possible. It's been a discussion since last year. That's the opposite of denial. Everyone agrees. The only thing they disagree on is a) how to fix it or b) if it's even possible to get qualifiers more balanced for their playerlists in a way that wouldn't unbalance semis. (And also possible to do it in a way that still leaves both sides feeling like the team that plays better wins in the end) This year's setup is explicitly an attempt at being even more town-sided than past ones. So there's no denial or desire to keep things mafia-sided.
    I will grant that this year's setup moved in the right direction, but it wasn't enough. I do appreciate getting half a loaf, don't get me wrong. But we can have a whole loaf next year, I know we can!

    I find it hard to believe there is even a question of whether balance is "even possible." Of course it is possible--it is essential.

    Make the game balanced without differentiation between qualifiers and semis. The roles are distributed randomly between alignments to all players. Sure, the skill of the Town is greater in semis than in qualifiers, but so is the skill of the Mafia. Additionally, these skilled future semis players are also populating a significant chunk of the qualifiers.
  22. #13

    Thread: Open Signups

    by Zork
    Replies
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    Views
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    Now your non-Mafia Olympic games can get some...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#12)
    We're gonna be doing the tab thing
    Now your non-Mafia Olympic games can get some front page treatment!
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    I agree with everything you say here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klopp (#28)
    Godfather is potentially way more devastiting for town than a Framer. Worst case scenario for town with a Framer is that the cop will get a wrong red-peek and town will mislynch a townie because of it.

    Worst case scenario with a godfather is that he gets peeked by a Cop and survives till the end because of that green check.

    We mostly play with a godfather but we wanted to mix it up a bit. I think switching to a Framer is pro-town as now every green peek will be 100% locked town and with red peeks you can still deduce if a player is playing a towny game and it's not so obvious that he should be lynched.

    When I first joined this site I was quite surprised by the setups played here. For example Cop 13er seems extremely town-sided for me. There are 3 wolves, 9 vts and a Cop with a n0 peek. If he lives till day3 he has 3 peeks + himself and the game is almost over for mafia. My community would always play this kind of setup with a Godfather as a counter. But we also played different game systems to yours, we don't have an automated voting system for example so we play in an archaic way, with votes being sent by a PM to the Game Host, with players being able to write wills -> also sent through a PM to a Game Host and the Game Host would then publish that will after their death. So a cop could write down all of his peeks there which made him much stronger etc, etc.

    Anyway, every community has its own system and what's important is that it works and people have fun.
    I agree with everything you say here.
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    Sticky: Name: Best Served Cold--A Dish Served by Zork...

    Name: Best Served Cold--A Dish Served by Zork
    Player Count: 21
    Game Type: Closed
    Start Date: Mon Jun 22


    (see post 13 of the thread I started in the Game Review section, please)
  25. #11

    Thread: Open Signups

    by Zork
    Replies
    12
    Views
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    If there is a way the site could remember whether...

    Quote Originally Posted by Logic (#10)
    Speaking as a user that loves other games:
    I would like a small collapsible "other games recruitment" tab, but I don't think that it's necessary.

    It's a quality of life improvement, for sure.
    If there is a way the site could remember whether you have the tab collapsed so there isn't a default open or default closed every time you log in.

    Or maybe have an option in one's preferences to hide the non-Mafia games tab for those folks who know they only want to play Mafia.
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    I don't understand what you mean by "scum + 2." I...

    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#373)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#364)
    Show me a Town win rate of greater than 40% for any so-called "accepted as balanced" mountainous setup on MU, and then and only then will I accept the premise of your argument. I have never heard of your #+1 formula before. It seems artificial and overly simplistic, and in terms of real-world results is miserably inbalanced as applied to mountainous.
    i flubbed my wording a lil' bit

    the point is, you want #ofScum + 2 for mountainous to account for lack of PRs. so champs setup has the mount number, AND town gets PR on top of that. i confused myself there a bit while writing.
    but yeah for mountainous its scum + 2 for MLs, not scum + 1.

    still, the point of it is that the setup is slanted for town because of that purely on mechanical grounds, according to MU balancing principles

    as for the #+1 rule:
    MU articles about balancing
    standard mafia numberings of 7v2, 10v3, 13v4, 17v6 etc
    talks w/ people

    its just a baseline, but still a solid one
    I don't understand what you mean by "scum + 2." I don't know how to count mislynches.

    The standard mafia numberings depend on cops being a part of the roleset. If you're saying that you add 2 Townies as compensation for no cop, that is woefully insufficient. Look at a cop 13er, which is a balanced setup. Adding two townies hardly ameliorates the massive swing toward scum when you remove the cop.

    We aren't just starting with Mafia. This isn't the first Champs season. Folks are in denial about the fact that they keep approving setups that keep trending almost exlusively mafia-sided, and in some cases extremely so. Why do I say they are in denial? Because they aren't adjusting their sense of what constitutes a balanced setup based on the feedback that all these results are providing, admittedly from different setups, but still, the one constant are the folks who said, yes, this is a balanced setup, and they just consistently are not.

    I am in the bottom half in terms of Mafia-playing ability primarily because I really haven't played as many games as you would expect someone with years on this site and years before that on another site. What I have done is host and design. But many others have done even more of that than I have, a few have done a ton more, and they are a ton better at it than I am. But may I just say that if I could brag a claim to fame about only one thing, I'd have to say it's my ability to determine a balanced setup. I've offered my services as an official reviewer many times and have not been accepted (or denied, so I guess that's good) to this day. I think part of the reason might be that the powers that be think I town-side my setups. I haven't done an official tabulation of the win-loss records of the games I've run over the years, but I'm quite sure town WR is between 40 and 60% and probably a lot closer to 50% than that. I have a feel for what constitutes a balanced game. I'm good at playing scum. Everything else, below average, I admit it. I don't suck as a host any more, so there's that, too, I guess.

    TLDR: Trust my judgment on whether a setup is balanced. I'm not good at much wrt Mafia, but that I am good at.
  27. Night 2#1380

    Thread: Modified Cop 13er

    by Zork
    Replies
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    20,032

    Completed If the vote count as of the last post before Sun...

    If the vote count as of the last post before Sun Jun 7 at 9:01pm ET, Mon Jun 8 at 9:01am ET, Mon Jun 8 at 9:01pm ET, or Tue Jun 9 at 5:01am ET contains 6 or more votes for a particular player, it is the duty of each player to post "Majority night; do not post" unless that was already done. I will close the thread as soon as possible thereafter.
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    You keep it in the closet.

    You keep it in the closet.
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    I haven't seen the mop and glo since September...

    Quote Originally Posted by PunchyTheCat (#51)
    closet was feeling stuffy tbh
    I haven't seen the mop and glo since September 1999.
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    I was wolfing with mortilt4u once years ago and...

    Quote Originally Posted by Doubting Dave (#26)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#25)
    Quote Originally Posted by Doubting Dave (#24)
    Quote Originally Posted by Klopp (#2)
    Also worth noting is that mafia roles aren't randed, mafia team has time till the end of day1 to choose which mafia members get the Framer and the Role Cop -> in theory that means these two roles will live long enough to be used at least 3 or 4 times as they will be taken by mafia members who built themselves the most comfortable position in the thread.
    This is an extremely wolf-sided setup IMO. As one user already noted, the existence of a framer completely weakens cop. Also, never let the wolf team get to choose who has the PRs. Any competent wolf team will just give those powers to the top players. Always randomize the players.

    I'd suggest changing framer to a godfather.
    That would also weaken the cop, just saying.
    Yeah, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as bastard as a framer. IMO, framers should be bastard roles.
    I was wolfing with mortilt4u once years ago and he was godfather got green checked and rode it solo 9:1 all the way to our victory.
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    That would also weaken the cop, just saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doubting Dave (#24)
    Quote Originally Posted by Klopp (#2)
    Also worth noting is that mafia roles aren't randed, mafia team has time till the end of day1 to choose which mafia members get the Framer and the Role Cop -> in theory that means these two roles will live long enough to be used at least 3 or 4 times as they will be taken by mafia members who built themselves the most comfortable position in the thread.
    This is an extremely wolf-sided setup IMO. As one user already noted, the existence of a framer completely weakens cop. Also, never let the wolf team get to choose who has the PRs. Any competent wolf team will just give those powers to the top players. Always randomize the players.

    I'd suggest changing framer to a godfather.
    That would also weaken the cop, just saying.
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    Sticky: Mine's been waiting several days with no input...

    Mine's been waiting several days with no input even after PMing the reviewers. Please advise.
  33. Day 2#895

    Thread: Modified Cop 13er

    by Zork
    Replies
    2,160
    Views
    20,032

    Completed Please, whoever is posting votecounts, if you're...

    Please, whoever is posting votecounts, if you're gonna post a votecount, at least make a substantive post to go along with it. Or better yet, just do the substantive post and click "get votecount" instead. Otherwise, we see there is a new post, we click on it, and see there is absolutely nothing to see.

    /rant
  34. Day 2#817

    Thread: Modified Cop 13er

    by Zork
    Replies
    2,160
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    20,032

    Completed In the interest of common sense, and at no one's...

    In the interest of common sense, and at no one's prompting, I am hereby changing the following rule in post 1:

    Standard of participation - A post is defined as one that is substantive* and contains neither a vote nor an unvote. Each checkpoint must be met daily; the checkpoints are as follows:
    --3 posts by 36 hours before EOD...
    to:

    Standard of participation - A post is defined as one that is substantive* and contains neither a vote nor an unvote. Each checkpoint must be met daily; the checkpoints are as follows:
    --1 post by 36 hours before EOD...
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    reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#371)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#369)
    First off, Towns can SPK via the lynch. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
    In my experience, strong town players are easy to find because they give town a voice.
    And strong mafia players are hard to find because that is the definition of good mafia play, to be hard to find and hard to lynch.
    I don't buy that you can just wave away the skill shift like that.
    reputation
  36. Night 1#778

    Thread: Modified Cop 13er

    by Zork
    Replies
    2,160
    Views
    20,032

    Completed If the vote count as of the last post before Thu...

    If the vote count as of the last post before Thu Jun 4 at 9:01pm ET, Fri Jun 5 at 9:01am ET, Fri Jun 5 at 9:01pm ET, or Sat Jun 6 at 5:01am ET contains 8 or more votes for a particular player, it is the duty of each player to post "Majority night; do not post" unless that was already done. I will close the thread as soon as possible thereafter.

    Lollipopz was licked (heh heh, get it? licked?) by the wolves. Lollipopz was Vanilla Town.
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    I disagree with everything you say except the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhand (#368)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#364)
    Of course player skill influences win rate, but because the players are randomly distributed between Town and Mafia, that factor washes completely out.
    This isn't true because of how the game works.

    What the Mafia will do is kill high skill level players at Night, ending up with lower and lower skill in town as the game progresses.
    What town will most likely do is find and lynch the lowest skilled mafia first, keeping the high skill level mafia in the game longer.
    So as the game progresses, town loses skill and mafia doesn't.

    If skill level would be equal for all players, I'm pretty sure the setup is very town-sided.
    It's the difference in skill level that makes these games mafia-sided. And to get that fixed, you will need to make the setup extremely town-sided to a degree that will make the SEMI's and for sure the final unplayable for the mafia if you use the same setup.
    I disagree with everything you say except the part about what Mafia does at night.

    First off, Towns can SPK via the lynch. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

    Secondly, while there are more and less skillful players, the difference is not that great. It doesn't take much to be good at Mafia. It takes a lot to be even a bit better than "good."

    Thirdly, I simply can't engage with any argument that says the present Champs setup is "very town-sided." It's an assertion that's beyond my ability to dispute. It's that out there. It's like saying zero is a very large number. It just isn't.

    Finally, I think your speculation is unsupported by any evidence that semis and finals would be--you don't even say inbalanced, you say "unplayable" which is hyperbole on top of hyperbole. Again, these strong players have to deal with each other. Have you forgotten that the roles on both sides are distributed among these strong players at the semis and finals? Do you not think that both alignments are aware of the strategies that could be employed so that they can defend against them? For every strategy there is a counter strategy.
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    Your anecdote raises a great point that we...

    Quote Originally Posted by Klopp (#22)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#21)
    Quote Originally Posted by Klopp (#19)
    You really think it's that scum-sided? I don't see it. Can you tell me why do you see it that way?

    As for not changing anything it's because our community's meta heavily favours town and we need balanced or scum-sided setups, definitely not town-sided ones.
    You know your community best.

    I wish you all the luck.

    Honestly, at the end of the day, for as much as I am the crazy wild-eyed prophet that no one listens to on balance, we're going to find a way to have fun regardless.

    Cheers.
    I understand. Besides balance talk is difficult as it's really tough to prove what's balanced and what's not because so many factors come in to play and there's so much variance. Not so long ago one of the Game Hosts in our community created a setup which was disgustingly town-sided, with 4 town PRs and so on in a 17 player game. At least 8 times out of 10 this should be a town win. However many newbies joined our community in that time and mafia won that game because town PRs and the town itself played a terrible game and just self-destructed.

    So regarding this setup, I feel like it can go either way:
    a) Cop can survive till day 4, have 3 or even 4 alive green peeks and can have a support of the doctor -> this would be practically game over for mafia.
    b) On the other hand mafia can find the Cop sooner and kill him on one of the first three nights.
    c) Mafia can use the Framer and change Cop's green peek into a red peek which will probably result in a mislynch on the peeked townie depending on circumstances.

    So a lot can happen. I was just never a fan of a Cop being a total game changer -> claims day4 with 4 green peeks and mafia can basically surrender. Hopefully that doesn't happen.
    Your anecdote raises a great point that we balance with the typical player list in mind, not the super-players list. This means that setups that seem quite town-sided aren't as much as they seem. Again, if there is any pattern at all, it's that when you don't give the Town a Cop, you probably have to give them more power than you think. And when you do give them a Cop, you probably don't. And by Cop I mean one whose results are always correct.

    I think your players will enjoy the setup as you have it and will have fun, and who knows, town might sweep.
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    You know your community best. I wish you all...

    Quote Originally Posted by Klopp (#19)
    You really think it's that scum-sided? I don't see it. Can you tell me why do you see it that way?

    As for not changing anything it's because our community's meta heavily favours town and we need balanced or scum-sided setups, definitely not town-sided ones.
    You know your community best.

    I wish you all the luck.

    Honestly, at the end of the day, for as much as I am the crazy wild-eyed prophet that no one listens to on balance, we're going to find a way to have fun regardless.

    Cheers.
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    I have definitely seen that opinion expressed....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#366)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#364)
    Going into deep psychoanalysis here, I think the drive to keep setups mafia-sided around here stems from the fact that we have some of our best experiences in Mafia playing the bad guys as part of a cohesive known team as opposed to the paranoia we usually endure as Town, not knowing who is friend and who is foe. The strategy, the conniving, the pulling off of the con, even for folks who prefer randing Town is rich stuff, the stuff of friendships formed. Winning as Mafia makes it all the sweeter. So there is an instinctual "looking out for" the interests of the Mafia, and that's my unscientific theory as to why it seems so cool and in-crowd to be "oh yes, of course a setup should be slightly mafia-sided." Plus there is some Emperor has no clothes aspect to it, as we want to be seen as accepted by the group, so we go along with what the in-crowd thinks, which is definitely not what I think LOL.

    [...]

    None of us should be satisfied with giving Town merely "enough" chances to win. Town should have just as much chance to win as Mafia. It's a shame I have to type that out.
    Are you suggesting that there are people here (not just some, but a large in-crowd) who believe that the games should be mafia sided? I'm curious to hear your experience with this, because I don't believe I have ever seen that opinion expressed even once. The common belief I've seen expressed is that while people would like a balanced setup with even win rates, they feel that champs' various issues (culture clash, showing off, inactives, etc) make things inevitably mafia sided despite the best efforts to pick setups that would otherwise be townsided. I have not seen people say they want it this way, rather just that they have not come up with good solutions to fix it as of yet.
    I have definitely seen that opinion expressed. I'd have to do some pretty time-consuming digging to find it. More generally, there is no other reasonable conclusion to draw that people like it mafia-sided because they keep making rolesets that are ridiculously mafia-sided and they never adjust their sense of what constitutes balance. I can't believe they aren't smart enough to adjust, so all I'm left with is that they like it that way.

    Look at the most recent Town-win. You can tell that deep down everyone knows it's not a town-friendly roleset, and that's being diplomatic. And because it was a sweep, they are talking about automatic promotion to semis to the extent possible. That should be a clue. Yes, it was mostly because of the sweep aspect, but there was no such similar talk when Mafia swept and near-swept their wins.
    Those sorts of public statements should not be read into too much imo. At risk of perhaps being too blunt... People are polite. Also they've just come off of winning a game and are much more likely to want to spread merriness and cheers. Not that I'm saying their feelings aren't authentic. It's very natural that when the town sweeps, they will say "Man I wish the whole winning team could move on, we all deserve it". It's exactly what people say in wolf sweeps, and I again question your experience if you haven't seen it happen, because I have seen it many times. (And I mean in previous years when the set up was undeniably wolf-sided)

    I hear you.
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    And that's my Mafia University article, where's...

    And that's my Mafia University article, where's my badge?
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    Setups should strive for fairness. Each player...

    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#363)
    @Zork

    genuine question
    do you think we need a 50% wr setup in champs
    or are you just proving a "point" for $#@! and giggles
    Setups should strive for fairness. Each player should have an equal chance to win regardless of the alignment randed. It is not possible to design the perfectly balanced roleset, and even if it were, we could never know for sure that it was, in fact, balanced. All we can do is strive for it. It concerns me that many think we should not even do that.

    When one side consistently wins a particular roleset more often than the other side, it tells me when I get my role PM of the side that loses more often that before day 1 even begins I am getting an unfair shake, and by folks who purposely designed it to ensure that I would get an unfair shake. By that I mean a situation where the designer says "seems mafia-sided, meh imma roll with it." You're removing skill from the equation of who wins and who loses, and you're turning it into a partial luckfest. The "partial" aspect becomes quite pronounced once you stray into a 40% win rate, because at that point the other side has a 50% greater chance of winning than you do--not a 20% greater chance. This is because 20 points is half (50%) of 40.

    But (you may say) Zork, I agree with everything you say, but what about the challenge of being behind the 8-ball at the start? The game itself should be the challenge, and the competition of the players within it. Let the rand giving you a bunch of noobs as your fellow Mafia goons while the town is packed with SPK-eligible legends--let that rand be the 8-ball you can be behind, and the challenge you can overcome. It shouldn't be forced by a mod who enjoys trolling the majority of a roleset's players by watching Towns crumble far more often than they should. And it is a majority because when a roleset is Mafia-sided, the majority of people randing into that game rand Town--they rand probable losers.

    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#363)
    (dont take that as an attack lol,
    I'd have to have a pretty thin skin to think that an honest question is an attack. Our whole reason for playing games is for $#@!s and giggles. I believe a setup that is designed to approach a 50/50 win rate is essential to a sportsmanlike, fair game/contest/tournament, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#363)
    i have other things to be pissy at you instead)
    I have no idea about what you are talking.

    (yay good grammar!)

    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#363)
    two factors play into balance
    1. the setup
    2. the playerlist
    Like I said somewhere else earlier, a setup is balanced if you reasonably expect it to result in a 50/50 win condition for both teams among the expected pool of players.

    One should assess a new roleset as "town-sided," "wolf-sided," or "balanced." Then one should see who won. Over time and many, many games, you will start to notice a pattern in which too many games you thought were "balanced" are won by the wolves. If this happens to you, and you don't adjust your expectations of the pool of players, your expectation that the next roleset to come along is 50/50 is no longer reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#363)
    champs takes in players from different communities with different metas and experience, there is going to be a wide gap in skill
    not to mention games are put together based on time preferences, not skill

    hard to get 100% balanced games this way
    That's OK. You are ascribing way too much of a "percentage" to the playerlist or player pool. Remember, the players are randomly distributed to both alignments. That's why I think the percentage of importance of the player pool in designing is approaching 0%.

    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#363)
    the 12v3 setup requires 5, if im not wrong, mislynches for scum to win.

    the accepted balanced number of needed MLs is numberOfScum+1. so it's already slanted towards town - a number accepted as balanced for mountainous. but this setup also has town power with no counterpower for wolves. making it even more townsided.
    Show me a Town win rate of greater than 40% for any so-called "accepted as balanced" mountainous setup on MU, and then and only then will I accept the premise of your argument. I have never heard of your #+1 formula before. It seems artificial and overly simplistic, and in terms of real-world results is miserably inbalanced as applied to mountainous.

    The fact that some pooh-bahs around here don't get (and I stress only "some" not "most" or "all"), perhaps in part because of the messenger more so than the message itself, is that the presence of an unadulterated (no framer/godfather) cop is the #1 impact on considerations of balance. A cop changes the very essence of Mafia from an uninformed majority to an at least somewhat informed majority. There is a reason mountainous is called what it is--it is quite the uphill battle for a Town that remains forever ignorant. All Mafia has to do is bus hard and they win the vast majority of the time. This extends even to non-mountainous setups like the current Champs setup, which was the LEAST wolf-sided of the experimented setups. This is because there is no Cop in that setup, either. I wanted to do more to balance it, but was grateful to have had some part to play in nudging the balance of the Champs setup in the right direction, at least. The difficulty of Mountainous lies more in its absence of Cops than in its absence of PRs in general. I would go so far to say as I would bet 4 figures of cash money in an honest experiment of a 13:2 mountainous that Town would not win those greater than 55% of the time over 50 honest games. That's how bad 12:3 is. I don't think there is much debate on the 12:3 being inbalanced.

    Going into deep psychoanalysis here, I think the drive to keep setups mafia-sided around here stems from the fact that we have some of our best experiences in Mafia playing the bad guys as part of a cohesive known team as opposed to the paranoia we usually endure as Town, not knowing who is friend and who is foe. The strategy, the conniving, the pulling off of the con, even for folks who prefer randing Town is rich stuff, the stuff of friendships formed. Winning as Mafia makes it all the sweeter. So there is an instinctual "looking out for" the interests of the Mafia, and that's my unscientific theory as to why it seems so cool and in-crowd to be "oh yes, of course a setup should be slightly mafia-sided." Plus there is some Emperor has no clothes aspect to it, as we want to be seen as accepted by the group, so we go along with what the in-crowd thinks, which is definitely not what I think LOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#363)
    how much more do you want to push power to town before mafia wins means automatic promotion to semis because it's so hard at that point?
    I would define "so hard" for either alignment as a roleset in which the results, preliminary though they may be, all tend to point in one direction. It's one thing to say hey Zork it's only 10 games and will be only 20 games when all is said and done. But if I were to go back and do the research on the results of the other seasons, would I find any pattern other than consistent mafia-tilting? I think not.

    Look at the most recent Town-win. You can tell that deep down everyone knows it's not a town-friendly roleset, and that's being diplomatic. And because it was a sweep, they are talking about automatic promotion to semis to the extent possible. That should be a clue. Yes, it was mostly because of the sweep aspect, but there was no such similar talk when Mafia swept and near-swept their wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#363)
    player skill will inevitably heavily influence the actual wr. the best we can do to make a balanced setup is give both factions enough chances to win. looking at winrate is faulty imo.
    Of course player skill influences win rate, but because the players are randomly distributed between Town and Mafia, that factor washes completely out.

    None of us should be satisfied with giving Town merely "enough" chances to win. Town should have just as much chance to win as Mafia. It's a shame I have to type that out.
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    Whenever you gravitate to set up toward a more...

    Whenever you gravitate to set up toward a more mountainous approach the balance in terms of numbers between town in Mafia must be altered proportionally.

    I'm not saying your setup is mountainous I'm just saying it's moving in that direction when you neuter the cops investigative function.

    As you originally posted your role set it will be hard for town to win just being honest.
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    Why would you make no changes after perceiving...

    Why would you make no changes after perceiving the roleset as scumsided? I would at least give the cop a backup if not also split the cop into two players as well. This preserves the cop-framer battle you seek.
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    I would definitely keep the option for Mafia to...

    I would definitely keep the option for Mafia to decide who is who n1.

    I would keep the Super Framer role as it's pretty neat.

    I'd just add a bit of power to Town. Just one VT changing to PR will do the trick.

    Maybe:
    --Change Cop to Even Cop with n0 random town.
    --Change a VT to Odd Cop without a n0 peek.
    --Change a VT to Cop Backup (inherit).

    Then you don't need to change any VT to Roleblocker or any other PR. You never have more than one cop. There is no guarantee that the Backup will live to back anyone up. And if Cop is nightkilled, the Town loses a peek that night even with a Backup because the Backup doesn't become effective until dawn. So it's not as overcompensating as first blush.
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    I think what gets lost in a lot of discussions on...

    I think what gets lost in a lot of discussions on balance is the fact that Town rarely plays optimally. That fact must be included in the analysis of balance. If you get a bunch of super-players on both teams, a roleset that leans too much toward town will become a stomp very easily. But with a group of average players, the Mafia team will play better with its perfect information than a Town team with its nearly complete ignorance. Balance must reflect this.
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    I stand corrected on that point. So I'd...

    Quote Originally Posted by Klopp (#7)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#3)
    Quote Originally Posted by Klopp (#2)
    Also worth noting is that mafia roles aren't randed, mafia team has time till the end of day1 to choose which mafia members get the Framer and the Role Cop -> in theory that means these two roles will live long enough to be used at least 3 or 4 times as they will be taken by mafia members who built themselves the most comfortable position in the thread.
    The existence of a Framer substantially reduces the power of a Cop. The existence of a Framer who can have two players simultaneously return falsely as Mafia makes the Cop 50% useful at best (good only for green checks; a red check might as well be a roleblock).
    I wouldn't agree on that one though. Red check d1 gives a cop an 80% chance of being correct and d2 it still has a 67% chance of being correct. So it's at least somewhat useful info as it increases the random chance of someone being mafia from 23-24% to 67%. It's a very significant change from statistical point of view. So green peeks are 100% correct and red peeks are definitely not useless. As a player who's been used to playing with PRs like Godfather for years, this setup makes me wonder if the Cop won't be too much of a game changer.
    I stand corrected on that point.

    So I'd correct my feedback to say slightly wolf-sided as-is and you can balance it nicely by changing a VT to a roleblocker or something like that. No need to change the Super-Framer role. Remember that you are adding to wolf-power by letting them decide who is who after a whole day of play instead of dictating in advance. This ensures the PR survives to act n1 whereas normally there would be no such guarantee.
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    If you really like the idea of a Super Framer and...

    If you really like the idea of a Super Framer and don't mind having this be a manual game as a result, then it would be sufficient to add a particularly strong PR to Town that is even stronger than Roleblocker. Since your game would be manual anyway, feel free to use your imagination on that. Or just pick from the lengthy list in modbot.
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    The existence of a Framer substantially reduces...

    Quote Originally Posted by Klopp (#2)
    Also worth noting is that mafia roles aren't randed, mafia team has time till the end of day1 to choose which mafia members get the Framer and the Role Cop -> in theory that means these two roles will live long enough to be used at least 3 or 4 times as they will be taken by mafia members who built themselves the most comfortable position in the thread.
    The existence of a Framer substantially reduces the power of a Cop. The existence of a Framer who can have two players simultaneously return falsely as Mafia makes the Cop 50% useful at best (good only for green checks; a red check might as well be a roleblock).

    I would not make the Framer super-powered and would rather make him a regular Framer. You could then run this game automated. I would add a roleblocker to Town to counter the reduced power of its Cop and to counter the power of the Mafia's Role Cop somewhat.

    So mafia-sided as is.
    Slightly mafia-sided if you add a roleblocker* to Town.
    Balanced if you add a roleblocker* to Town and reduce the Super Framer to a Framer.

    *or some other useful PR
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    Automated Yanqui go hoam

    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas (#104)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemma (#103)
    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas (#1)
    Start Date: 6/3/2020
    [/Box]
    ???

    this game started 3 months ago ?
    I'm american @Gemma
    Yanqui go hoam
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