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  1. #67

    Thread: smallrus

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    66
    Views
    1,432

    Walrus literally forgot this existed oops it's back...

    literally forgot this existed oops

    it's back on my radar and will be finished. will try to reveal cat 4 within the next week or so
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    Gaming I'm probably gonna pass, trying not to deviate...

    I'm probably gonna pass, trying not to deviate from my current games backlog and was never crazy about the first Mass Effect to begin with. Will definitely follow this thread though.
  3. Strategy End of Spring 301 A.C. Orders: ...

    End of Spring 301 A.C.

    Orders:


    House Stark @Zack):
    A Deepwood Motte - The North
    A White Harbor - White Knife
    A Winterfell - Torrhen's Square

    House Greyjoy @GeneralHankerchief):
    F Great Wyk - Sunset Sea North
    F Harlaw - Ironman's Bay East
    F Pyke - Ironman's Bay West

    House Tully @Shad):
    A Fairmarket - Oldstones
    A Harrenhal - Maidenpool
    A Riverrun - Golden Tooth
    A Seagard - The Twins

    House Arryn @Logic):
    A Eyrie - The Bloody Gate
    F Gulltown - Bay of Crabs
    A Heart's Home - Strongsong

    House Lannister @Michael123):
    No moves received. All units hold in place.

    House Baratheon @Apoc):
    F Dragonstone - Blackwater Bay
    A Storm's End - Haystack Hall
    F Tarth - Shipbreaker Bay

    House Tyrell @Lads):
    A Highgarden - Goldengrove
    A Horn Hill - Cider Hall
    F Oldtown - Redwyne Straits

    House Martell @Dp101):
    A Prince's Pass - Starfall
    F Sunspear - The Stepstones
    A Yronwood - Blackhaven

    Retreats needed:
    None

    Fall 1901 Map:



    Fall 1901 ends September 19th at 7 PM ET (roughly 71.5 hours from now).

    edit: apparently mentions in parentheses don't work so



    edit2: well now they fixed themselves so i look like an idiot. thanks
  4. #74

    Thread: Shad Walrus 2019

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    75
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    1,115

    hype levels steadily increasing :popcorn:

    hype levels steadily increasing
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    as a heads up would prefer not to sub until...

    as a heads up would prefer not to sub until monday if at all possible

    if i'm needed earlier i can make it work but won't be as active as i'd like
  6. #716

    Thread: Current Staff

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    732
    Views
    61,002

    Sticky: hello ladd is a moderator vanity. is a...

    hello

    ladd is a moderator

    vanity. is a flake moderator

    panini is a discord moderator

    @lute edit this to look professional i'm lazy

    My family poops big. Maybe it's genetic, maybe it's our diet, but everyone births giant logs of crap. If anyone has laid a mega-poop, you know that sometimes it won't flush. It lays across the hole in the bottom of the bowl and the vortex of draining water merely gives it a spin as it mocks you.

    Growing up, this was a common enough occurrence that our family had a poop knife. It was an old rusty kitchen knife that hung on a nail in the laundry room, only to be used for that purpose. It was normal to walk through the hallway and have someone call out "hey, can you get me the poop knife"?

    I thought it was standard kit. You have your plunger, your toilet brush, and your poop knife.

    Fast forward to 22. It's been a day or two between poops and I'm over at my friend's house. My friend was the local dealer and always had 'guests' over, because you can't buy weed without sitting on your ass and sampling it for an hour. I excuse myself and lay a gigantic turd. I look down and see that it's a sideways one, so I crack the door and call out for my friend. He arrives and I ask him for his poop knife.

    "My what?"

    Your poop knife, I say. I need to use it. Please.

    "Wtf is a poop knife?"

    Obviously he has one, but maybe he calls it by a more delicate name. A fecal cleaver? A Dung divider? A guano glaive? I explain what it is I want and why I want it.

    He starts giggling. Then laughing. Then lots of people start laughing. It turns out, the music stopped and everyone heard my pleas through the door. It also turns out that none of them had poop knives, it was just my $#@!ed up family with their $#@!ed up bowels. FML.

    I told this to my wife last night, who was amused and horrified at the same time. It turns out that she did not know what a poop knife was and had been using the old rusty knife hanging in the utility closet as a basic utility knife. Thankfully she didn't cook with it, but used it to open Amazon boxes.

    She will be getting her own utility knife now.

    [Edit: Common question - Why was this not in the bathroom instead of the laundry room? Answer. We only had one poop knife, and the laundry room was central to all three bathrooms. I have no idea why we didn't have three poop knives. All I know is that we didn't. We had the one. Possibly because my father was notoriously cheap about the weirdest things. So yes, we shared our poop knife.]
  7. Strategy Diplomacy: Westeros Edition (Game Thread - Fall 301 AC)



    House Stark (White): @Zack
    House Greyjoy (Black): @GeneralHankerchief
    House Tully (Blue): @Shad
    House Arryn (Cyan): @Logic
    House Lannister (Red): @Michael123
    House Baratheon (Yellow): @Apoc
    House Tyrell (Green): @Lads
    House Martell (Orange): @Dp101


    Signup Thread OP (with rules)
    Discord server

    Spring 301 AC ends September 16th at 7 PM ET (roughly 72 hours from now).
  8. Replies
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    Strategy After polling the masses on Discord, it seems...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shad (#38)
    I have a feeling once we're in full swing 48/24 will feel long.

    Extending the first round or two might be nice though.
    After polling the masses on Discord, it seems this is a popular consensus.

    The first Spring/Fall will thus be 72 hours instead of 48.
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    Strategy Sunset Sea South was incorrectly labeled as...

    Sunset Sea South was incorrectly labeled as "Summer Sea South". This has been corrected.
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    Strategy Dp101 is in for Zork.

    @Dp101 is in for Zork.
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    Strategy wellllllllllllll i guess zork's slot is up for...

    wellllllllllllll i guess zork's slot is up for grabs if anyone wants it
  12. Replies
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    Strategy edited, try again

    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#28)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#27)
    The official Discord server for this game can be found here. A spectator chat can be found here as well.

    @Ampharos

    invite doesn't work
    edited, try again
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    Strategy The official Discord server for this game can be...

    The official Discord server for this game can be found here. A spectator chat can be found here as well.

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    i appreciate the longer phases will /sub

    i appreciate the longer phases

    will /sub
  15. Day 1#1251

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread are we actually letting it rand gg if so

    are we actually letting it rand

    gg if so
  16. Day 1#1248

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread $#@! no i just won't sleep friday night or smth ...

    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#1242)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#1241)
    zzz and i'm super busy this weekend too

    even if i survive this i'm gonna have like no grasp on this game $#@! me
    should i just kill you then
    $#@! no i just won't sleep friday night or smth

    we're gonna MAKE THIS WORK
  17. Day 1#1245

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
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    16,813

    Game Thread lmao i figured it was a meme of some sort but was...

    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#1239)
    that chemist list was SORT BY POSTCOUNT
    lmao i figured it was a meme of some sort but was afraid to ask what
  18. Day 1#1241

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread zzz and i'm super busy this weekend too even...

    zzz and i'm super busy this weekend too

    even if i survive this i'm gonna have like no grasp on this game $#@! me
  19. Day 1#1234

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread actually this might be a villager

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranmilia (#1224)
    I should mention for the record that it is insanely scummy for Visor to show up again just before deadline, push CGM out of the fire, make just enough posts to stay in the game and disappear again. Bewildered by... nearly everything taking place this evening. CGM still has not provided anything beyond mockery and an "I'm so scummy I can't be scum, kill me, you won't!" defense so I'm not sure why anyone is unvoting her. Seems like everyone's turned to referencing past games, which I cannot comment on at all other than to say past game reads are terrible and never reliable.

    Look at the votes, look at the wagons, look at the logic.
    actually this might be a villager
  20. Day 1#1229

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread --felt good-- 112 Dels iaafr Psycho666Soldier...

    --felt good--
    112
    Dels
    iaafr
    Psycho666Soldier

    --felt decent--
    CatgirlMaple
    Chemist1422
    Mill Crab
    Paratroopa
    Slimy Soab (tilt notwithstanding)

    --???--
    FTFlush
    Ranmilia
    Visorslash

    --WaywardSon--
    WaywardSon

    this legacy is garbage but it's here
  21. Day 1#1223

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread oh yeah he was a villager in that game sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratroopa (#1221)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#1213)
    honestly manti's iso reminds me of his d1 in long phase mountainous and that's good enough for me for today, i think
    Is this a good thing?
    oh yeah he was a villager in that game sorry
  22. Day 1#1222

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
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    16,813

    Game Thread of course it's now 5-3 and i'm probably just...

    of course it's now 5-3 and i'm probably just $#@!ed

    ah well at least i get to play more fire emblem
  23. Day 1#1218

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread ftf is also low efforting which makes this read...

    ftf is also low efforting which makes this read hard

    he definitely seems completely unconcerned about other people's impressions of him but idk if it's super alignment indicative for him specifically

    honestly it's hard null for me and i probably prefer a wws lynch here but i wouldn't hate resolving this slot
  24. Day 1#1216

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread i also had way more time

    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#1210)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#1202)
    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#1194)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#822)
    oh right my mentions



    @Ampharos would also like you to articulate your townread on dels at some point

    sorry for all the mentions

    not really and not really

    thanks for coming to my ted talk
    and i guess amy did this which annoyed me
    if you'll recall i basically had the same sorts of reads on rosen/mikey in teamgame

    this is not unusual for me
    you also had way more reads on way more slots and could articulate more about your reads than "eh gut"
    i also had way more time
  25. Day 1#1213

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
    Views
    16,813

    Game Thread honestly manti's iso reminds me of his d1 in long...

    honestly manti's iso reminds me of his d1 in long phase mountainous and that's good enough for me for today, i think
  26. Day 1#1208

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread bad post op

    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#1204)
    what if I told y'all

    ##Vote Dels
    bad post op
  27. Day 1#1207

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
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    16,813

    Game Thread ok before i even START reading manti's iso i'm...

    ok before i even START reading manti's iso i'm gonna say that him having 76 posts surprises me
  28. Day 1#1202

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
    Views
    16,813

    Game Thread if you'll recall i basically had the same sorts...

    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#1194)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#822)
    oh right my mentions

    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#434)
    @Ampharos when you have time could you outline why you townread 112
    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#465)
    @Ampharos would also like you to articulate your townread on dels at some point

    sorry for all the mentions
    not really and not really

    thanks for coming to my ted talk
    and i guess amy did this which annoyed me
    if you'll recall i basically had the same sorts of reads on rosen/mikey in teamgame

    this is not unusual for me
  29. Day 1#1197

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
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    16,813

    Game Thread village read her entrance, mostly on gut/tonal...

    Quote Originally Posted by WaywardSon (#1187)
    @Ampharos read on 112?
    village read her entrance, mostly on gut/tonal stuff

    haven't read enough since then to update read
  30. Day 1#1193

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread update: slot could be a wolf. there's just, like,...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#1183)
    Quote Originally Posted by Paratroopa (#1178)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#1171)
    ##Vote WaywardSon

    self-pres

    guess i should start isoing the wagons or something?
    Do you think WWS is a wolf or not
    i literally have his iso up now gimme a sec

    though i'm guessing it hasn't rly changed much since last time i looked at it given the (21) next to his name
    update: slot could be a wolf. there's just, like, barely anything there

    read on me kinda comes out of left field - he says i seem to be "searching for the lynch of least resistance" and offers nothing to back this up

    and then he largely ignores everyone except me which is... something

    low effort game regardless of alignment. gun to head inclined to wolfread. kinda like chemist's "why me fry me" take
  31. Day 1#1183

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread i literally have his iso up now gimme a sec ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratroopa (#1178)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#1171)
    ##Vote WaywardSon

    self-pres

    guess i should start isoing the wagons or something?
    Do you think WWS is a wolf or not
    i literally have his iso up now gimme a sec

    though i'm guessing it hasn't rly changed much since last time i looked at it given the (21) next to his name
  32. Day 1#1182

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age...

    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#1177)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#1171)
    ##Vote WaywardSon

    self-pres

    guess i should start isoing the wagons or something?
    well you said you cant read FTF and you called the wws wagon lame and you havent read enough of the game to conjure a cfd against something spicier so idk what youre supposed to do here
    Do not go gentle into that good night,
    Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  33. Day 1#1174

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread i feel obligated to not roll over and eat the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#1173)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#1171)
    ##Vote WaywardSon

    self-pres

    guess i should start isoing the wagons or something?
    don't feel obligated to do anything

    embrace the chaos
    i feel obligated to not roll over and eat the mislynch after i pre-inned this game months ago

    so yeah i feel obligated to do something
  34. Day 1#1171

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread WaywardSon self-pres guess i should start...

    ##Vote WaywardSon

    self-pres

    guess i should start isoing the wagons or something?
  35. Day 1#1168

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread oh

  36. Day 1#1165

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
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    16,813

    Game Thread i'm probably just wrong on zack fwiw the tilt...

    i'm probably just wrong on zack fwiw

    the tilt has alleviated somewhat
  37. Day 1#1164

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread here to eod 36/12 was a mistake

    here to eod

    36/12 was a mistake
  38. Replies
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    Strategy For aesthetic purposes Bear Island is grouped...

    Quote Originally Posted by Logic (#22)
    You give the Starks Bear Island, but then don't bother to name it.
    For aesthetic purposes Bear Island is grouped with Deepwood Motte. Same with Skagos/The Wall and that island next to Sunspear/Sunspear.
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    Strategy To clarify: 7 PM ET. I'm not gonna be up at 7 AM...

    To clarify: 7 PM ET. I'm not gonna be up at 7 AM lol
  40. Day 1#919

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread ...this is just a thinly veiled "amy's push is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratroopa (#917)
    Okay, I needed to make sure because i'm like

    sort of struggling to see from wolf-amy's point of view how pushing zack of all people is going to help her here at all

    a counterpush on a more sensible wagon might have made sense but getting flustered here is basically just blundering her way into a d1 lynch and I feel like she's savvy enough to know better
    ...this is just a thinly veiled "amy's push is nonsense", isn't it
  41. Day 1#913

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
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    16,813

    Game Thread i suck at reading flush

    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#908)
    i want everybodys current thoughts on ftflush tbh
    i suck at reading flush
  42. Day 1#912

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
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    16,813

    Game Thread i think he's a wolf and also i am frustrated

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratroopa (#910)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#904)
    Quote Originally Posted by Paratroopa (#901)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#896)
    mmm

    nah

    ##Vote Slimy Soab

    i've explained my thinking. i think it makes sense. it feels like you're just being intentionally obstinate here

    and the "she's just trying to get heat off without solving the game" point is bull$#@!, because i SAID that i wasn't caught up and that i was gonna look at the votes on me first. you're wolfreading me for something i SAID i was gonna do

    nah this is straight nonsense dude
    Do you actually think zack is a wolf for this or is this just frustration
    por que no los dos

    but for real like

    there's only so many times i can reword my thoughts before said thoughts being said to not make sense starts to smell funny
    That didn't really answer my question
    i think he's a wolf and also i am frustrated
  43. Day 1#911

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread ...i guess this is true i feel this doesn't...

    Quote Originally Posted by Slimy Soab (#907)
    I don't think I have ever seen your village d1 our your village game at all so I have no idea what you're talking about
    ...i guess this is true

    i feel this doesn't negate my point, however.
  44. Day 1#906

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread you know full well i'm capable of posting myself...

    Quote Originally Posted by Slimy Soab (#902)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#900)
    like iaafr's scumread on him was pretty lolparanoia but this push on me feels pretty forced

    can see a world where he felt the need to re-establish the mislynch after i came back to thread and a couple of people unvoted
    Interesting strategy for me to re-establish a lunch I'm not even voting for
    you know full well i'm capable of posting myself clear

    you ALSO know full well that my villa d1 sucks

    i can easily see a world where the wolves want me mislynched today for fear of me clearing myself later on down the line
  45. Day 1#904

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread por que no los dos but for real like ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratroopa (#901)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#896)
    mmm

    nah

    ##Vote Slimy Soab

    i've explained my thinking. i think it makes sense. it feels like you're just being intentionally obstinate here

    and the "she's just trying to get heat off without solving the game" point is bull$#@!, because i SAID that i wasn't caught up and that i was gonna look at the votes on me first. you're wolfreading me for something i SAID i was gonna do

    nah this is straight nonsense dude
    Do you actually think zack is a wolf for this or is this just frustration
    por que no los dos

    but for real like

    there's only so many times i can reword my thoughts before said thoughts being said to not make sense starts to smell funny
  46. Day 1#903

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
    Views
    16,813

    Game Thread if it's so easy, why did i not decide to do that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Slimy Soab (#898)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#896)
    mmm

    nah

    ##Vote Slimy Soab

    i've explained my thinking. i think it makes sense. it feels like you're just being intentionally obstinate here

    and the "she's just trying to get heat off without solving the game" point is bull$#@!, because i SAID that i wasn't caught up and that i was gonna look at the votes on me first. you're wolfreading me for something i SAID i was gonna do

    nah this is straight nonsense dude
    I'll just point out that lashing out at someone pushing you is one of the easiest things to do as a wolf

    And that your read is silly.
    if it's so easy, why did i not decide to do that with psycho's push? you seem to think that one was pretty reachy. surely if i was scum it would be pretty easy to find reasons to scumread that

    like... if i'm scum, what's my angle on townreading that and scumreading this?

    and your face is silly (but so is mine so that's ok. body positivity is $#@!ing hard dude)
  47. Day 1#900

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread like iaafr's scumread on him was pretty...

    like iaafr's scumread on him was pretty lolparanoia but this push on me feels pretty forced

    can see a world where he felt the need to re-establish the mislynch after i came back to thread and a couple of people unvoted
  48. Day 1#896

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
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    16,813

    Game Thread mmm nah Slimy Soab i've explained my...

    mmm

    nah

    ##Vote Slimy Soab

    i've explained my thinking. i think it makes sense. it feels like you're just being intentionally obstinate here

    and the "she's just trying to get heat off without solving the game" point is bull$#@!, because i SAID that i wasn't caught up and that i was gonna look at the votes on me first. you're wolfreading me for something i SAID i was gonna do

    nah this is straight nonsense dude
  49. Day 1#857

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
    Views
    16,813

    Game Thread this would require me to have a lot more time to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#853)
    Quote Originally Posted by Paratroopa (#848)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#841)
    Quote Originally Posted by Paratroopa (#829)
    I can see the Dels defense brigade was working overtime while I was away
    yes, isn't it just grand. such fun.
    well, if we really are replaying mountainous arson, at least we have a game-breaking newcomb sub to look forward to on d4
    the real question is if chemist is cemetaries
    this would require me to have a lot more time to case him than i apparently do
  50. Day 1#847

    Thread: Mountainous Desperado

    by Ampharos
    Replies
    4,430
    Views
    16,813

    Game Thread usually when i'm looking for wolfy pushes i'm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Slimy Soab (#842)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#838)
    Quote Originally Posted by Slimy Soab (#835)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#826)
    yeah but me voting you looks super weird if you don't realize it's a jokepost, which he apparently didn't

    i'm assuming there was some point about my entrance that got lost in translation or something because it got worded super awkwardly

    and while he didn't explain why he quoted my para post (hence my statement) it did seem to get a lot of response from the peanut gallery so it makes sense to look at as a fairly contentious sort of thing
    I mean I guess? but you thought it was an "obvious joke" (and I agree) so I don't follow the idea that it's reasonable to misinterpret something obvious. My reaction to that was "uh, what?" not "yeah that's reasonable"

    and you are assuming it comes from a reasonable place when you literally don't even understand what was being said

    idgi
    idk man i'm starting to think missing obvious jokes is a villager trait just based off the sheer number of people that have done it this game

    like how the $#@! am i supposed to read that

    i can't scumread it i'd lose my mind
    I'm not saying you should scumread it, or even that the push was wolfy. I just don't think your "this push is bad but not wolfy" doesn't make much sense as a conclusion based on your given reasoning
    usually when i'm looking for wolfy pushes i'm looking for blatant misrepresentation or reachy bull$#@!. i didn't see any of psycho's post as blatant misrepresentation or reachy bull$#@!.

    idk how many other ways i can word it
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Role of the Day
Deva

The Deva may target another player every night, providing them with karma. This will cause their night action(s), if they have any, to be duplicated and used on themselves.