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    As many of you know I'm not around much these...

    As many of you know I'm not around much these days, but I saw this thread and wanted to share a few thoughts and my own story.

    With regards to this initiative
    I personally want to commend and thank roro and co. for this initiative.

    I also want to thank everyone else who has participated in this thread for offering their feedback, whether negative, positive or in between, because what's clear - to me, at least - is that everyone cares. And that's the best starting point this can possibly have. In the midst of whatever disagreements there might be, I hope we can have that as our connecting guideline - we all care.

    To be clear, I'm not involved with the project, nor do I have any education within the field of mental health, so all of this is just my subjective opinion as a fellow MU community member. But in my view, I do agree it's important to raise awareness about mental health. I have already learned new things from reading people's replies to this thread, and it has inspired me to share my own story for the first time.

    Of course, I'm sure there are many opinions on how awareness should be raised, whether it should be raised on a forum meant for playing games, and finally how mental health and all that relates to this should even be handled. It's impossible to come to an agreement on all these matters for a plethora of reasons, but it does seem like together we're coming up with some compromises, improvements and ideas that could potentially do some good, if even just a little bit.

    I think that's an amazing second connecting guideline - being together in this discussion of mental health. So I think it's a great idea that Manasi also created a thread that was more of a "this is the community talking and being together about this in whatever way, shape or form they feel comfortable with".

    My own story
    I saw that these stories were spoilered in the other thread so as to avoid potential triggers, so I'll do the same here.

    I've done my best to structure the story in a logical fashion, but it's a bit difficult. Here goes.

    My depression
    My father died to suicide at the age of 48 in October 2019.

    This sent me into a depression of my own. I had suicidal thoughts, I blamed myself for my father's death, I didn't sleep well, I had a hard time focusing on simple tasks, I was no longer able to properly evaluate how I was coming across in everyday interactions (I was afraid that what I said was hurtful or "wrong" and needed to consult with others to make sure that wasn't the case), and my emotions were raw.

    I clearly remember how every negative thing that happened in this period led me into a negative spiral of thoughts centering around my father's death and from there leading back to suicidal thoughts. It could be a discussion with my wife, or it could just be a slightly negative post or comment whether online or IRL.

    Then there were of course also all the things that reminded me of my father. I got my interest in movies, tv shows and gaming from him, so it was hardly possible to do any of my usual hobbies without being reminded of him and thus reentering the negative spiral mentioned above. I also recall tearing up when I saw the trailer to Star Wars: Rise of the Skywalker. My father had introduced me to Star Wars as a kid, and now we wouldn't get to the see the conclusion together. After having watched the movie, I felt less sad about this.

    I didn't tell any of my friends about my father's death for the first couple of months. It was just too difficult to broach the subject. I think partly because I didn't know how to, and I think partly because I've always felt uncomfortable about having others listen to my troubles. I think I've just always felt that "this is something that's happening to me, so why should I make others uncomfortable?". (Which is a general pattern in my life, a need to make others like me and to completely shy away from all conflicts or unpleasant interactions.)

    I was back to work within a week, and we went through with our "moving in party" that we'd planned for the next week as well where I managed to keep up appearances. Of course, my wife and our families knew as did my colleagues. In hindsight, I was a complete fool for not taking a leave of absence from my work (the therapist had cleared me to take a "leave of sickness" or whatever you'd call it) and cancelling our events, but as the "responsible" person that I am I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

    Therapy
    It's difficult to say how long the depression lasted, but I do know that it was very important that I talked to someone about it. Something that my wife had to convince me to do, so I finally went to see a therapist.

    The first time, it didn't really do much.

    The second time was the first time where I began to have "aha moments". Even though I consider myself very self-aware, there were just connections that I'd never made before when reflecting back upon my life. And it wasn't that the therapist claimed that these connections existed or anything, but the conversation led me to make these "conclusions" on my own, so to say.

    The third time the unimaginable happened. I cried for only the second time in... My adult life? The first time had happened only weeks prior on the first night of the day where I learned about my father's death.

    The impact of my father's death
    The fact that it was suicide hit me hard.

    At first, when my mom called to tell me, she hadn't mentioned suicide. So I assumed it had something to do with his heart, as he had suffered a mild heart attack a couple of years before.

    I went over to their house and there were two policemen outside. I asked them what had happened and they said suicide. And it just completely changed everything for me. If the world had seemed dark before this, it was pitch black now.

    That part might read strange to someone who hasn't experienced something similar (and maybe still some of those?), but... What was before a state of shock mixed with grief, I imagine, was now an endless flow of emotions and thoughts all centered around why he'd "choose to leave us", "what could I have done to prevent this", and the like.

    I remember obsessing over how his final day was. Without being too direct, I wanted as many details as I could get from my mother and my 3 siblings still living at home. I searched through his browser history to see if there was anything - there was not. He didn't leave a note - I made sure to check everywhere I could. I wanted to know the approximate time of death, but the police said they don't check for that when it's suicide, which infuriated me. I wanted to access his phone and his email, but I didn't have any luck. How can there not be any way to break into an iPhone and see its contents if you don't have the password?

    Like I already mentioned, I initially blamed myself a lot, then I was angry with my father, and I'm sure that cycle repeated a few times.

    Some backstory
    My father wasn't a good man. For those curious, uttering this was what broke me at the therapy session. Honestly, in some ways, it's better that he isn't here. I won't delve deeper into this particular part of the story.

    So why did/does it hurt so much? Because I loved him and I miss him still. Because I know he loved me, I know he loved my siblings, and despite a strained relationship I know he loved my mother. In spite of all his shortcomings, I've never doubted any of this.

    Also, I sympathize with his story, and I feel very sad at how his life turned out. He lost his father too soon. He lost his brother (my uncle) to an OD, and he lost his multi handicapped son (my brother) in 2006-2008. I was there, so I know it wasn't easy to have a multi handicapped son, but he loved him endlessly and was always there for him. On top of that, his wife (my mom) suffers from several mental health issues as well as physical ailments that might very well lead to her dying within the next few years. Then add to this his dwindling group of friends, his beforementioned heart attack, and then there's another huge part which I also won't get into publicly.

    Suffice to say, though I am leaving many things out here, it wasn't difficult for me to piece together an interpretation of how he came to die by suicide.

    "Moral of the story" - talking helped me
    Despite all of these things, I had no idea he suffered from depression, much less suicidal thoughts. Looking back, it seems like absolute stupidity on my part. But I swear, his death was a complete shock to me and everyone else in his life. A complete shock.

    I've found myself wondering... If I was a therapist or psychiatrist, would I have known? Maybe? Probably? But the fact is I had no idea.

    And the main reason I had no idea was because he never shared it. He was a manly man who had gotten into many brawls in his life, and he certainly never talked about his feelings, unless they were of an angry or accusatory nature.

    One might think this would leave me to absolving myself of my sins of not realizing his situation. How could I know it if he didn't share it with me? This is partly the case, and partly not. I still found (and find) myself thinking back to conversations that I only remember tidbits of, reanalyzing and reinterpreting the things he said. Were there clues? Was he ever reaching out in his own way, and I just didn't pick up on it?

    But there is nothing to do about it. And I've come to terms with that.

    Better yet, I decided to learn from my father's mistake. Despite having had the very same inclination of not wanting to talk to anyone about it, I caved and did what my wife pleaded me to do many times - to please talk to someone about it. That step can be very hard, trust me, I know, so that is why I'm a fan of this initiative. Having that push was immensely helpful for me, so if it can do the same for even just one other soul out there, this is all worth it.

    And I've heard the feedback and I know maybe it won't help everyone. But I hope we can all agree that it's something worth exploring for everyone in a similar boat.

    Where am I today?
    I now no longer suffer from depression, thankfully. But I can still have minor "relapses", and certain stressors can amplify that.

    The past couple of months have been worse than the months before. Which is probably not too strange, considering the stressors of being unemployed (I finally quit my job last year to focus on my mental health as well as my family), moving into and renovating a new house, failing my driver's license test a couple of times, and worrying about my mother and my siblings. A combination of stressors that on bad days can make me feel like a failed man.

    And watching Bridgerton, funnily enough, also made me realize that I have an apparently common fear of dying at a young age caused by one's own father dying at a young age. This was very heightened at the time of my depression, but fortunately a bit more fleeting now.

    But! Today I earned my driver's license, we're making good progress on the house, I am doing my best to be there for my family, and hopefully the job will come along soon.

    I feel good right at this moment. But it's okay to feel bad. For me, talking helps. If anyone ever wants to talk, you can hit me up here on Discord. I'm not as active these days, but I'll reply at some point
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    Link for those that didn’t sign up for this one...

    Link for those that didn’t sign up for this one in time and want to help test: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/30023
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    It’s all good, just leave this one as is. There...

    It’s all good, just leave this one as is. There are two other “runs when it fills” sign-ups, so hopefully those will fill quickly as well.
  4. Postgame#18452

    Thread: Throne Mash II

    by Thingyman
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    Completed Me neither. What does rolestop mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxas (#18425)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rokon (#18414)
    I can't believe this is happening.

    Everyone is SHEEPING EACH OTHER. I thought this was a joke before, due to the amount of sheeping their was, but literally everyone on the wagon is sheeping except whomever Hype said they were following (even though that person did not provide an explanation).
    NO ONE HAS AN ACTUAL REASON TO ROLESTOP ON FANMAIL.

    No argument has been presented.
    No reasoning has been given.
    No one has any idea why they're doing it.

    Guys, if there isn't a reason to rolestop on someone, you shouldn't rolestop on them

    I know I'm being a bit dramatic, but this is legitimately the dumbest action train I've ever seen. It almost makes me want to shove it through for the lolz, but that would defeat the spirit of the game, so instead, I'll tell y'all this:

    Don't rolestop on somebody for no reason. It's dumb. Stop it. Hell, factional kill me if you want, at least I have a couple of posts that people think are sus. Just don't rolestop someone for no reason.
    i still dont know what rolestop is
    Me neither. What does rolestop mean?
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    Normally, invites would already have been going...

    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#41)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#40)
    Maybe someone could start a "runs when fills" test game for the other variant? If there's someone willing

    Seems like it could fill.



    1x Town Jailkeeper
    1x Town Even Night Vigilante
    10x Vanilla Town

    1x Mafia Roleblocker
    2x Mafia Goon

    Full flips
    @Thingyman

    when does championships start usually?
    Normally, invites would already have been going out a couple of weeks ago, so we are unfortunately way behind "schedule". The games usually start one or two weeks into April.

    Edit: But the worldwide corona situation might make it not so important that we are delayed this season.
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    Maybe someone could start a "runs when fills"...

    Maybe someone could start a "runs when fills" test game for the other variant? If there's someone willing

    Seems like it could fill.



    1x Town Jailkeeper
    1x Town Even Night Vigilante
    10x Vanilla Town

    1x Mafia Roleblocker
    2x Mafia Goon

    Full flips
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    Also if they advance to semis they probably have...

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Radishes (#334)
    We could give reps an option of post cap when signing up, like we do with time/date/toxicity level. Just something simple about whether they would prefer tighter restrictions or not. I don't know the best wording for it.

    Obviously this would suck for Lissa, adding another parameter to her scheduling, though.
    Also if they advance to semis they probably have to suddenly deal with a higher postcap. But maybe it’s better than nothing.
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    We could start a test version for both of those?...

    We could start a test version for both of those? If they seem to fill fast enough. Maybe just start with the one.

    Would anyone be willing to host either?
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    Could also make it a 2-time limited even night...

    Could also make it a 2-time limited even night vig, just to reduce variance.

    By the way, I know a few people expressed that they were happy with the potential fake claims that mafia could make in the original bear setup, but I think, on the other hand, that there isn't much "strategic" thought to be had there. I think it's just a gift that the mafia are sometimes handed, and that it's easy to claim a role that you know to be dead and the town doesn't (if you need to claim, of course), so I'm a bit meh on that as a selling point. But that's not to say I'm against flipless as a concept - I just think that for the balance of that setup I prefer tweaking it and not doing it like that.
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    I'm unsure about having a vigilante. But at the...

    I'm unsure about having a vigilante. But at the same time, it is a normal role and it could deserve another chance if we at least limit it. Meh.

    I think I'd adjust the setup to this instead:

    1x Jailkeeper
    1x Even Night Vigilante
    10x Vanilla Townies


    1x Mafia Roleblocker
    2x Mafia Goons


    With normal flips.

    If we take last year's setup as a baseline for reasonable balance, here you are adding a Jailkeeper and an Even Night Vigilante instead of two JOAT's with Doc, Track and Motion Detect.

    An even night vigilante is a bit more powerful, I think. A jailkeeper is about the same'ish value, since it also can block the even night vigilante, and even when it is used to protect or block a kill they cannot know what occured.

    So to make up for the added value to town, you have the added mafia roleblocker.

    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#257)
    1x Doctor
    1x Night 2+ 1-shot Vigilante
    1x Motion Detector
    9x VT

    1x Mafia Role Cop
    2x Mafia Goons

    Alignment flips only; no role flips

    Why this setup?
    It's an attempt to introduce strategic depth without having individually weird or complex mechanics.
    • Motion Detector and no role flips are perhaps the most uncommon elements, but they're not complex, and are easy to grasp.
    • The PRs are relatively powerful enough for Mafia to care about them long term. Leaving a Doctor or ENV alive long term is bad for business. The Motion Detector becomes a Cop with 1 wolf etc.
    • No role flips add a lot of complexity regarding claims. Ultimately I want Mafia to be able to fake claim, and force town to seriously evaluate players who claim. Just adds another axis of skill.
    • Good play regarding PRs from either faction likely nets them a meaningful, but not insurmountable, advantage if the other faction plays decently. If one faction plays well mechanically, and the other faction plays poorly mechanically they'll probably get smashed which is a fair outcome.

    Why these roles?
    Doctor is an incredibly common role with a reasonable power level.

    Vigilante is an incredibly common role, and it has a reasonable power level with limited shots. It's relatively important here for power level reasons, and adds a lot of interesting game state variance.

    2-shot, ENV, or 2-shot EVN might be better here, but it's really hard to say without testing. Night 2+ 1-shot is the safest for Champs in a vacuum probably.

    Motion Detector is an uncommon, low-power role, but it's exactly interesting in this particular setup. It's more interesting than say a Tracker in this setup without role flips because a positive result could either be Mafia carrying KP, Role Cop, Doctor, Vigi, or it could be the target of the Role Cop or Doctor. It has the potential to confirm or disconfirm role claims, and is still a late game threat to Mafia. Motion Detector without a sufficient number of ways to actually detect motion are kinda bad, and this setup squeezes enough in to make it more satisfying.

    Role Cop is a tool for mafia to both find the PRs, and make their lives a little easier, but if they kill someone without checking them first they have no idea if the player they killed was actually a PR or not. Also its existence in the setup weakens credibility of claims in general which is another pretty significant factor for the role being here, and I think it makes it easier for wolves to setup fake claims with no CC which is sweet.

    Ew no role flips? Seriously?
    Yes. A 13er or 15er with interesting mechanical play, a good level of variance, and that is skill testing in some way is almost impossible when you also stack on the requirements of it being an open or semi-open setup, low power, low complexity, and nothing too uncommon.

    You really hate it then you can remove it, and it's still fine. You lose some depth, but it's playable and would be relatively balanced on MU. Town-sided sure, but very winnable for wolves. I think it's a worse setup, but a totally reasonable one.

    But this isn't my idea of mafia.
    Ok.

    The greater Mafia community isn't a monolith. No setup is going to be everybody's idea of mafia. My only exposure to Mafia for literal years was heavily mechanical, and flipless which is very different from most forum mafia setups. If it's decided the setup has to have full flips then say that, and I hope it's done with the awareness that it's an aesthetical choice about what you want Mafia to be (which is fine).
  11. #1034

    Thread: Current Staff

    by Thingyman
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    Sticky: Thank you for your service, Dp

    Thank you for your service, Dp
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    With regards to

    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#247)
    Google can't find what wrt teams. What does wrt mean?
    With regards to
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    Sorry, didn’t mean to ignore this Hmm... It...

    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#156)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#89)
    The most important thing, in my opinion, is a balanced setup. And I know that we've failed on that several times.

    As for Mountainous
    12 VT's vs 3 goons = 25 % town win rate, over a 30 game sample size abouts (and this is massively overperforming according to rand, but that's hopefully to be expected)

    Interestingly, I believe town did do slightly better than 25% in the Mountainous season, so it is actually the other MU games dragging down the stats further, but they still didn't do 50%.

    And more importantly, we just ran JOAT^2, which was Mountainous but with Town having 2 roles. And that still didn't produce a 50% town winrate (but to be clear, I do consider that setup to be balanced, and I think the less than 50% town winrate is entirely attributable to Champs being inherently wolf-sided).

    Conclusion
    If we were to run a Mountainous setup, it certainly shouldn't be 12 vs 3. There is nothing to show that we can expect a balanced season that way, and we would just be repeating a previous season instead of looking to do better.

    So @ everyone suggesting Mountainous, if we were to run Mountainous, what should the exact ratio between mafia to town be?
    Instead of messing with the ratio you could make it poisonous or arson, ie 11v3 poison (1 fewer player because no one dies n1). The delayed deaths should in theory provide some benefit to the town, although when I ran a mountainous poison setup the wolves used their first several poisons on people who were completely wrong about everything in order to amplify their voices, so additional testing would be required to figure out how much benefit the town derives in practice from having a cleared player alive each day.

    These setups also have a desirable effect for champs in that villagers who are playing well can't die on n1 and be forgotten in the postgame voting.
    Sorry, didn’t mean to ignore this

    Hmm... It should add some EV to town, yes, but I’m not sure it would be enough. But maybe a mix of this and changing the ratio would create the perfect balance. But I think people aren’t too fond of the idea of a 2-man mafia team, and I can see why.
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    Do you study at KAIST? :P

    Quote Originally Posted by SchizoAffected (#236)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#234)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#229)
    GH's game of mountainous desperado that he ran and I linked earlier in the thread is the only one on MU as far as I know, though it was slightly different in that the gun was randomized instead of chosen by the mafia. Town won in f5.

    Cuth said the updated variant where the mafia choose the gun was run on DLP(?), I don't have a link and no clue how it turned out.

    If there are any other instances, I'm not aware of them.
    Good sign that the town won, but I can see that it was a strong playerlist, and that they eliminated a mafia Day 1.

    I'd definitely be curious to get more stats on this. Maybe we could even run a turbo or two.

    Not that we're gonna be able to get "meaningful" stats in this amount of time, but it can help to see how they shake out.

    My gut feeling is; I think I'd change it to 13v3, and then it's probably fine.
    Isn't that, like, 6 mislynches?
    Do you study at KAIST? :P
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    I think you're right that it will be fine in most...

    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#239)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#228)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsunami (#195)
    also also wrt warping the game around one mechanic or player:

    isn’t that an argument for always doing mountainous (or straight role madness)? lmfao

    as long as only a few ppl rand pr while most ppl rand vt or goon, there is going to be an imbalance.

    mountainado just makes it so ONLY one person is pr, not, say, two like in joat2. if joat2 is good then this should be fine too.

    especially since in mountainado, getting pr is not random luck; wolves choose it. it’s an interesting layer of strategy for both alignments.
    In JOAT^2 it is a good thing that the power is spread out between more people. That exactly serves to reduce variance and doesn't warp the game around a single player's actions. In Desperado, the game potentially does warp around a single player's actions (or I should say action). But it wouldn't be the worst setup we've had in this regard, Cop 13'er was way more warped around one thing.
    the shot happens in the day where there will be discussion over who to target

    it revolves far less around one players action when its all the alive players who contribute to who gets shot

    edit: there may definitely be games where a wildcard takes a shot or someone decides not to listen but in general i expect the village to decide on an agreed upon target
    I think you're right that it will be fine in most cases. But the mafia do pick the person, so they could choose a wildcard. But in most cases, it will be a day of discussion leading to the shot.

    However, that makes me like it less for another reason, albeit that is a personal reason and not one I weigh here as an argument against the setup being used: It basically makes it just a second elimination, which is boring.
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    It's 5 mislynches, plus the shot. Adding one...

    Quote Originally Posted by SchizoAffected (#236)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#234)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#229)
    GH's game of mountainous desperado that he ran and I linked earlier in the thread is the only one on MU as far as I know, though it was slightly different in that the gun was randomized instead of chosen by the mafia. Town won in f5.

    Cuth said the updated variant where the mafia choose the gun was run on DLP(?), I don't have a link and no clue how it turned out.

    If there are any other instances, I'm not aware of them.
    Good sign that the town won, but I can see that it was a strong playerlist, and that they eliminated a mafia Day 1.

    I'd definitely be curious to get more stats on this. Maybe we could even run a turbo or two.

    Not that we're gonna be able to get "meaningful" stats in this amount of time, but it can help to see how they shake out.

    My gut feeling is; I think I'd change it to 13v3, and then it's probably fine.
    Isn't that, like, 6 mislynches?
    It's 5 mislynches, plus the shot.

    Adding one mislynch in a non-power setup only increases town win % by a few %.

    If a 12v3 Mountainous with 4 mislynches produces a 25% town winrate, I think we need more than just the added shot. I don't think that shot doubles the town winrate.

    Or another way of looking at it; last season we had 2 JOAT's. Is their value only equal to a shot?
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    Yes and no. I'm saying I have no idea whether...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#237)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#234)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#229)
    GH's game of mountainous desperado that he ran and I linked earlier in the thread is the only one on MU as far as I know, though it was slightly different in that the gun was randomized instead of chosen by the mafia. Town won in f5.

    Cuth said the updated variant where the mafia choose the gun was run on DLP(?), I don't have a link and no clue how it turned out.

    If there are any other instances, I'm not aware of them.
    Good sign that the town won, but I can see that it was a strong playerlist, and that they eliminated a mafia Day 1.

    I'd definitely be curious to get more stats on this. Maybe we could even run a turbo or two.

    Not that we're gonna be able to get "meaningful" stats in this amount of time, but it can help to see how they shake out.

    My gut feeling is; I think I'd change it to 13v3, and then it's probably fine.
    is that game having a good playerlist really a concern when we're talking about a setup that will be used in semifinals and finale...?
    Yes and no. I'm saying I have no idea whether that setup is 50/50 or 30/70 right now. If it produces a 50/50 winrate with that playerlist, I'm of course 100% happy with it.
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    Good sign that the town won, but I can see that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#229)
    GH's game of mountainous desperado that he ran and I linked earlier in the thread is the only one on MU as far as I know, though it was slightly different in that the gun was randomized instead of chosen by the mafia. Town won in f5.

    Cuth said the updated variant where the mafia choose the gun was run on DLP(?), I don't have a link and no clue how it turned out.

    If there are any other instances, I'm not aware of them.
    Good sign that the town won, but I can see that it was a strong playerlist, and that they eliminated a mafia Day 1.

    I'd definitely be curious to get more stats on this. Maybe we could even run a turbo or two.

    Not that we're gonna be able to get "meaningful" stats in this amount of time, but it can help to see how they shake out.

    My gut feeling is; I think I'd change it to 13v3, and then it's probably fine.
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    Thanks. Cuthalion - I think you said you knew...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#229)
    GH's game of mountainous desperado that he ran and I linked earlier in the thread is the only one on MU as far as I know, though it was slightly different in that the gun was randomized instead of chosen by the mafia. Town won in f5.

    Cuth said the updated variant where the mafia choose the gun was run on DLP(?), I don't have a link and no clue how it turned out.

    If there are any other instances, I'm not aware of them.
    Thanks.

    @Cuthalion - I think you said you knew of 2 instances of this game being run elsewhere? Do you have links handy/results?

    @anyone: Would anyone be willing to host test game of this ASAP maybe? With 12/12 or 36/12 phases, so it doesn't last too long :P
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    And with regards to this... Well, I don't think...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#227)
    the setup could be anything and wolves are going to steamroll most of the qualifiers, that's just how the cookie crumbles. where is this 25% number from anyway?

    the various forms of mafia that were played on the sites i hung around before MU were absolutely nothing like joat^2, 2x5, or whatever low-power standard setup you cook up. there is a huge variety to mafia communities. season 2 had the "vanilla" cop 13er that you probably consider a very normal, standard setup. but that setup and the intricacies of the mechanics were completely alien to me and a lot of the other players in my qualifier, CPHoya had to tell everyone what on earth seer cover is and how to use it because no one had any clue there was an optimal way to play the setup. I just think this argument is misguided, and trying to represent the opinions of people who aren't here is silly when they aren't here and you therefore actually do not know their opinions.
    And with regards to this... Well, I don't think so? I think it's important that we try?

    We do have some information to base this off of, given that we're so much in contact with other communities, and I have years of feedback from them.

    This isn't an MU tournament. We are just the ones hosting it. I think it behooves us to take the responsibility seriously and try to imagine what all the other 100+ communities out there would be happy with.

    Now, of course, it would also behoove us to have talked about this way more in advance, to have run multiple tests, and to explicitly ask or poll the communities on what they want. So that falls on us for not having done that, but it is indeed an exhausting affair all of this, and we're all just doing our best. Hopefully we get it right for next season
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    Wrt the bolded: And that is fine. If it happens,...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#227)
    the setup could be anything and wolves are going to steamroll most of the qualifiers, that's just how the cookie crumbles. where is this 25% number from anyway?

    the various forms of mafia that were played on the sites i hung around before MU were absolutely nothing like joat^2, 2x5, or whatever low-power standard setup you cook up. there is a huge variety to mafia communities. season 2 had the "vanilla" cop 13er that you probably consider a very normal, standard setup. but that setup and the intricacies of the mechanics were completely alien to me and a lot of the other players in my qualifier, CPHoya had to tell everyone what on earth seer cover is and how to use it because no one had any clue there was an optimal way to play the setup. I just think this argument is misguided, and trying to represent the opinions of people who aren't here is silly when they aren't here and you therefore actually do not know their opinions.
    Wrt the bolded: And that is fine. If it happens, it happens. But I want us to pick a setup that at least seems balanced in a non-Championship setting. So that is the goal. If it then isn't balanced in a Championship-setting, oh well, that's fine -- I don't want us to ever adjust the balance to make up for the wolfsidedness of especially the Championship qualifiers. But if we start off by picking a setup that even outside of a Championship setting produces a 25% town winrate... That isn't good. The 25% number is from Mountainous games run on this site, I pulled the stats last year and posted them in Champs chat. Someone else can replicate it if they want, I don't have the links handy, but mansnicks pulled probably a lot of the games in his earlier post.

    Wrt the other paragraph: The intricacies etc. being unfamiliar is okay. That is why we want new setups: We want to test new skills and abilities in people. But the core should be familiar. People should be like "okay, the cop role, cool", or "JOAT is new to me, but I've played with these functions", or "okay, there's a matrix, but the roles I all know".

    Does Desperado have a familiar core? Well, it is the very first time that we introduce a "mafia picks something" mechanic, and it's the first time we have a "day shot... but it doesn't kill the target necessarily" mechanic. I don't think this falls within standard as much as maybe you and other people? Everything else "non-standard" we've ever done has been in relation to how the setup is randed, basically. This is definitely beyond that. But I'm not saying it's out of the question. I guess it's the best suggestion thus far, out of those seeking to innovate.
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    I think this is a bit unfair to last year's...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#211)
    my understanding was always that we tried to do some level of variation/soft rotation in power levels of setups, and mountainous/mountainous desperado fits pretty well for that this year imo.

    I’m gonna be frank; I don’t think low-power roles, or most roles, have a big impact on the ultimate outcome of a champs setup most of the time. the point at which many champs towns fall apart/have issues/go wrong, I think, is more likely to be later in the game and after all PR usage is said and done anyway, and it’s just not actually going to be substantially helped overall by the kind of low power champs setups that have been brought up by some.

    that isn’t to say that balance doesn’t matter, but it is to say that I don’t think the difference between something like joat^2 and mountainous has that large of an impact on whether a town wins a champs game, oddly enough. and the place I’m going with that is I would prefer a setup be interesting/fun (and still within reasonable balance parameters) than make every year the same kind of samey not actually good setups that come about from layers of compromises and desire to include only roles that are watered down to basically named vts anyway
    I think this is a bit unfair to last year's setup. I don't know why there is now a rhetoric that seems to indicate that JOAT^2 was a bad setup :P

    But other than that, I agree and disagree with your post. I don't agree that the JOAT's didn't impact game balance last year, but I do agree that it'd be nice to have some more rotation than just doing another "2 power roles setup". But the reason that I at first - and now I'm not sure anymore - went back to this is because I'm not personally fond of repeating Mountainous (so rather than rotation, I do prefer completely new setups, for as long as we can achieve that for), and I'm still unsure about Desperado.
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    In JOAT^2 it is a good thing that the power is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsunami (#195)
    also also wrt warping the game around one mechanic or player:

    isn’t that an argument for always doing mountainous (or straight role madness)? lmfao

    as long as only a few ppl rand pr while most ppl rand vt or goon, there is going to be an imbalance.

    mountainado just makes it so ONLY one person is pr, not, say, two like in joat2. if joat2 is good then this should be fine too.

    especially since in mountainado, getting pr is not random luck; wolves choose it. it’s an interesting layer of strategy for both alignments.
    In JOAT^2 it is a good thing that the power is spread out between more people. That exactly serves to reduce variance and doesn't warp the game around a single player's actions. In Desperado, the game potentially does warp around a single player's actions (or I should say action). But it wouldn't be the worst setup we've had in this regard, Cop 13'er was way more warped around one thing.
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    These are the criteria laid out in OP, which...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsunami (#193)
    setup has always been changed each year. isn’t that the most fair thing to do - and an integral part of champs?
    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#191)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#190)
    Also, the setup last year worked very well. It was the best success we've had. It produced a fair playing experience, the results seemed to support that, we received the lowest number of complaints ever, and people understood the setup.
    Where does the myth come from that Mafia Championship wants to do a different thing each year? I feel there has been some miscommunication between the MU folks because it really is just a myth.

    What were the complaints about S4 btw?


    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#190)
    I don't know why there is now opposition to learning from success, and suddenly a move to repeat an unbalanced setup (Mountainous).
    I think the disconnect here is because you're one of the only ones in this Thread who takes the feedbacks from all the communities into account. Among the people in this thread, you might even be one of the only ones who know them.

    • You want to please commnities.
    • Others want to test people.
    • Others want to play what's fun.
    • Others want entertainment.

    The Desperado suggestion came a mindset of the last 2, while it's an option that's questionable at best first the first 2 mindsets - which are the more important ones I believe?





    Going back to the "myth and miscommunication" that I stated earlier, and looking at all these different mindsets of people regarding what they want..
    I myself will stop participating in this discussion until there are clear set ground rules in regards to what is it that the organizers want and what they're looking for. This is a fools' errand.
    These are the criteria laid out in OP, which still stand:

    - For 13 or 15 players
    - Open or semi-open
    - No third party, independent or neutral roles
    - No complex or unusual mechanics that most communities wouldn't have heard or thought of existing

    On top of that, we probably forgot to add:

    - Should be reasonably balanced (not in a "champs setting", but just if you ran it regularly on MU, if it has a 45-55% winrate that'd be optimal, but we could probably also live with a 40-60% winrate though that's pretty meh)
    - It should preferably be a new setup

    With regards to the bolded
    Some people think that if we ran a 15-man setup with a Tracker and a Jailkeeper (for example) that we would be repeating the same setup as last year. I can see why they say that. I hope those people can also understand those of us that don't necessarily think it's the same thing. It definitely creates a same'ish playing experience, but it's not the same setup. Moving on from that setup to Mountainous: This is a setup that we've run before, and many communities didn't like it, so even though it is pretty popular on MU, we would not be serving the general mafia community well by repeating it.

    So do we want a new playing experience? Yes, preferably, and the reason for that is, as pointed out by Tsunami, that we do want different communities to be able to shine. But that setup still has to fit the other criteria, and if it doesn't, then it all becomes a matter of which criteria are the most important, and that is where everyone disagrees.

    So, yes, the best would be if we had a balanced setup and new playing experience at the same time. Is that possible? So far, (but I've also had to skim a bit due to lack of time), it doesn't seem we really have any good suggestions for this that also match the other criteria.

    JJJ's or my suggestions are definitely same'y playing experience. Mountainous has been done before, and it also isn't balanced from what the stats show (and I repeat that I think it would be irresponsible of us to just pretend those stats don't exist). So that'd leave Mountainous Desperado - if we feel that that matches the other criteria.

    For anyone to be able to evaluate the balance aspect at least, we need some more data, so I ask again: Can someone please link all the Desperado games they know of? It's hugely relevant to the discussion
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    Mad17 wasn't a success, unfortunately, though the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsunami (#193)
    it is incredibly frustrating to see the “this isn’t standard mafia!” argument keep popping up

    mad17 was way more nonstandard (no role flips, possibility of mafia cops and vigs, excessively neutered roles yet billed as role madness...)

    and yet we did that. so why can’t we do mountainado?

    i thought the point of changing setups each year was so we could appeal to different corners of ww (without upsetting muers lul) - “if u don’t like this setup / it’s unusual for you don’t worry, next year will be different!”
    Mad17 wasn't a success, unfortunately, though the core idea was very intriguing and a way of accommodating all those that wanted role madness. It had very good intentions behind it, and a mistake was made in making a change to the setup right before the season began that I do think impacted the results.

    In any case, that was a setup containing familiar roles and familiar mechanics in terms of how to play the game. Having a Desperado shot chosen by mafia is, in my opinion, more unfamiliar than nay of that. This is part of the discussion we're having, and it's good to hear all the input. I'm not devaluing how you feel, so I hope you won't devalue how I feel. I can see that I'm not the only person who feels a Mountainado setup to not be exactly like mafia in terms of how I perceive mafia. If we're several people feeling this on MU, there are gonna be other people who feel that way as well. As those people aren't here for this discussion, and since this is a Championshion for all the internet mafia people and not a Championshio to make MU happy, I feel it is important that we also try to represent those people here.
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    It had as many wins as last season. 36%. But...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#216)
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Radishes (#213)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#211)
    but it is to say that I don’t think the difference between something like joat^2 and mountainous has that large of an impact on whether a town wins a champs game
    In general I think you're likely right, but it might be worth noting that 3 of the 5 town wins last year featured red checks from the JOAT.



    I should know.
    the mountainous season had the most town wins i believe
    It had as many wins as last season. 36%.

    But Mountainous overall has a 25% town winrate, based on a 30 game sample size.

    It is not a good idea to run back Mountainous, at least not with 12v3 numbers.

    If I asked you which you think would do better: A qualifier town or a regular MU town, every MU regular would say a regular MU town, and I would agree. However, yes, in season 4 they managed to produce a 36% town winrate. Statistically, stuff like that just happens sometimes. You can flip a coin to go heads 3 times in a row, and you'd think the coin is unbalanced.

    @mansnicks I know you disagree that the town winrate in season 4 was an anomaly; On what basis do you think that?

    People are always massively underestimating how difficult it is for town to win a Mountainous, and I guess it might be because of season 4's relative success seen in comparison with other seasons where town struggled massively?

    On top of all that, Mountainous was by far the most divisive setup that we've ever run. In terms of what games people play on their home forums, Mountainous is basically never run.
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    Also, the setup last year worked very well. It...

    Also, the setup last year worked very well. It was the best success we've had. It produced a fair playing experience, the results seemed to support that, we received the lowest number of complaints ever, and people understood the setup.

    I don't know why there is now opposition to learning from success, and suddenly a move to repeat an unbalanced setup (Mountainous).

    Also, there seems to be a notion that the standard roles such as Tracker, Jailkeeper, etc. are "boring", "named townies" and are "weak roles that you might as well just cut to have no roles instead". Why is that? The alternative is stronger roles that will dominate the game too much. It's no fun having a setup where the outcome is just entirely determined by one person's actions or skills. So of course the alternative is to have the medium strength roles that can make a difference, just like JOAT's last year.
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    What are the current stats on Mountainous...

    What are the current stats on Mountainous Desperado? Can anyone link to all games (including off-site ones) and summarize the results?

    I see that one of my original concerns is not valid - that the mafia doesn't necessarily want to target weak town spots with their pick, or that even if they do it's still beneficial for town. So with that out of the way, I "only" have three concerns with the setup:

    1) Is it balanced? I'll wait to make a call on this until I see the linked games. In any case, I'd want us to run a test game or two, especially if the "mafia picking the shooter" thing isn't already tested.

    2) It's not standard mafia. Sure, the introduced mechanic is a variant on something familiar, but so is most things you can think to introduce - variants on something familiar. What I would prefer to have is just something actually familiar. I haven't said that I think people will have a hard time understanding the setup. I think that a not insignificant portion of people will not immediately view it as a mafia game the way they're used to understanding mafia. And this is the Mafia Championship, not a Championship of "let's play innovative setups for the sake of newness". I've played hundreds of games, and even I think it falls slightly somewhere out of standard mafia.

    3) It warps the game around a single thing. This was the issue many people had with the Cop setup, although a secondary issue with that was of course also the heavy variance that that role introduced. In a game where we would prefer many people to have the opportunity to shine, I do worry about having a KILLING role placed on someone who can immediately eliminate someone from probable advancement, I worry that it will introduce a "let's all talk and then have the person shoot consensus target" thing that is unfun for several reasons, and I worry that it will impact votes greatly.

    Also, it doesn't strictly make sense to call the setup Mountainous Desperado, or to talk of "Mountainous variants", since as soon as you add roles or mechanics to the game it is no longer a Mountainous game, but we all know what we're talking about, so whatever :P
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    Hmm, is that site correct? I might've been fed...

    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#92)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#89)
    12 VT's vs 3 goons = 25 % town win rate, over a 30 game sample size abouts (and this is massively overperforming according to rand, but that's hopefully to be expected)
    I believe that's not massively overperforming, but rather close to the theoretical 24.52 % (according to this).

    Which I think could mean that a proportion close to a theoretical 50% could be good for casual games, while an additional Desperado mechanic could give the balance needed for even the Qualifier games. But there's a problem...

    13v2 = 43% (is it really though?)

    Desperado kinda needs an even count, so:
    12v2= 30%

    This does make Mountainous Desperado questionable. 30% in an environment where Town is known to underperform.

    I don't think that MU are that well experienced with Mountainous Desperado, given that there's only 1 game.

    I don't think that players from other sites would have too much trouble with Desperado, given the simplicity of it.

    But balance is indeed an issue here.

    I'm getting the impression that, unless we are willing to take drastic measures, then setups similar to JOAT^2 will be in every future season.
    Hmm, is that site correct? I might've been fed wrong data in the past then. I know that I once saw a table over this that said differently, but oh well, doesn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#97)
    FWIW, villages don't lynch at rand odds, thingy. (and also mountainous had the highest amount of qualifier village wins, IIRC - could be wrong.)

    And I am getting sick of every year we have the same discussion about 'oh the poor babies won't know what roles are'. You know what happens because of this? People shoot down any idea with potential to run a variation of the same snooze fest we do every year.

    Desperado is not a difficult concept to grasp, it is already a role known elsewhere (how do you think it became known on MU in the first place!). Acting like it is somehow a barrier to entry when the mechanics are very simple to grasp is just strange.

    Personally I think mountainous >>> Desperado mountainous (because you probably don't want to give the gun to a miskill so you end up giving it to a clear and its semi boring). But the spice aspect of it is good for retention and interest.

    Power roles suck anyway, at least one that has downside like that is nifty. 12:3 is fine, people will adapt.

    Run mountainous.
    I of course know this. They do much better. From mansnick's post I might've gotten it wrong anyway, and it doesn't really matter - the actual stats and games matter, and I don't think there is any reasonable cause to call 12vs3 Mountainous a balanced setup. More on this below.

    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#99)
    These are all the Mountainous 15'er games on the site (I think). Including Arson and Desperado (I think).

    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/28087 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26658 Town
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/25218 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/25011 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/24653 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...nous-Desperado Town
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/24249 Town
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/22752 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/22356 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/19595 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/19397 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/16888 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/15615 Town
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/15043 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/11216 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/11243 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/10471 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/10264 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/9117 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/8945 Town
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/8947 Town
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/8944 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/8819 Town
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/8711 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/8685 Town
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/8686 Town
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/8583 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/8584 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/8336 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/8182 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/8186 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/7757 Mafia
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...29-Game-Thread Mafia
    9 24


    Town has won 9 times, Scum have won 24 times.
    Town has 27.27% win rate overall.
    However, 5 of those wins are from Championship Season 4 games.

    IMO, given Season 4 results, Mountainous is fine. But do do play Desperado, plz.
    When I referred to the stats earlier, I was referencing this, minus the variants that aren't pure Mountainous. Town has a 25% winrate in 12vs3 Mountainous. Yes, the setup did produce a 36% winrate in season 4, but the general stats would seem to indicate that this is an anomaly.

    For as long as MU has existed, people have insisted that Champ towns (at least, qualifier towns) are worse than general MU towns. So the fact that the town in this one season seemed to fare better is not an argument to repeat the experiment, especially when we saw last season that the same setup with TWO ROLES for town produced the same winrate: 36%.

    I'm not a statistician, so someone can correct me here, but with the sample size that we do have, it seems indefensible to run a 12vs3 mountainous setup again.

    No matter how you slice it, you are 1) taking a setup that had a 36% town winrate and REMOVING the two only roles that town have, hoping for better results (???), and 2) taking a setup that has a 25% town winrate on MU in general, hoping for better results because town in season 4 had a 36% winrate.

    I'm not opposed to Mountainous, but the ratio and numbers need to change. Maybe a 13'er with just two mafia. That's like starting a JOAT^2 game and the mafia losing one of their members while the town loses both their roles (though only one town member). I'm certainly not mad in that spot as a mafia, and the town can't really complain either - they "just" have to catch 2 mafia.
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    I think I'm mostly inclined to just work out a...

    I think I'm mostly inclined to just work out a new 13 or 15-man open setup akin to JOAT^2 that seems to be balanced.

    Maybe something like 12vs3 with the town having a Jailkeeper and a Tracker? The balance of each of those roles shouldn't be too dissimilar to a JOAT having Track, Doc and Motion Detect. They're slightly stronger, I guess, so maybe one of them first begins having actions Night 2? Or you could limit them on the other end like with JOAT^2.

    You could also make it 10vs3, and I'd be curious to see how that actually changes balance. Trackers and Jailkeepers are worth more with less players, but at the same time you of course lose that one mislynch.
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    I agree with MR regarding the Desperado setup. ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Radishes (#84)
    I like pure Mountainous and agree with people about why it's the best format etc etc. And yet I'm still against it for the points Amy brought up above. And to add on to that, let’s not forget we’re a bunch of MU-centric highly-experienced super-serious Mafia players discussing and deciding this, but the people playing it are not from the same Mafia background. They will be primarily from forums where Mafia is just a fun little side game and not the raison-d'etre of the site (and also, increasingly it seems, non-forum environments). Our perspective on what is 'best' or 'fun' or 'easy to grasp' is not necessarily the same as the players who will enter and participate in the tournament.



    I've not played Mountainous Desperado and so I suppose I run the risk of disagreeing on the basis of unfamiliarity with it. But my counterpoint to using it as a setup is, in fact, familiarity. I don’t mean of the mechanics of it – that’s easy enough to grasp. But I mean more of the inherent tactics of the setup. Due to its unusual nature, people who play the early games (and, actually, all the qualifier games to an extent, since most players do not spectate beyond their own) will be fumbling through it in the dark, not knowing what’s optimal and how to respond to it and all that, and that can inhibit a player’s capacity to shine.

    Conversely, most people would inherently understand how to play as/with/around more familiar PRs, like a roleblocker/doctor/mafia role cop. A couple common PRs are easier for players from any background to get their heads around than a single uncommon one, imo.




    Also at the end of the day feel free to ignore me because (a) I don't consider myself any sort of expert in setup balance, (b) I don't really care what we do because Champs will be fun regardless, and (c) I'm mostly here to play devil's advocate anyway. :P
    I agree with MR regarding the Desperado setup.

    It may be simple for MU'ers, but it's still less simple, and more importantly unfamiliar, to non-MU'ers, than just using a standard type setup.

    Some of these communities will hopefully even be completely new ones, and I don't want them to think of the Mafia Championship as some alien thing. I want to increase the odds of them feeling like it's a somewhat meaningful event with a setup that isn't foreign to what constitutes mafia for them. If they happen to do poorly, combined with the setup being a Desperado setup, I can already imagine the talk on their home communities - I've seen this personally many, many times before, which is maybe why I'm so passionate about not steering too far away from a normal mafia setup.

    Also, balance-wise, I'm unsure how Desperado would work if you have the Mafia give away the gun. The player lists are very unpredictable for a Championship season, and I fear that the mafia would have too easy of a time picking at least one "weak spot" in the game to give the gun to.
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    The most important thing, in my opinion, is a...

    The most important thing, in my opinion, is a balanced setup. And I know that we've failed on that several times.

    As for Mountainous
    12 VT's vs 3 goons = 25 % town win rate, over a 30 game sample size abouts (and this is massively overperforming according to rand, but that's hopefully to be expected)

    Interestingly, I believe town did do slightly better than 25% in the Mountainous season, so it is actually the other MU games dragging down the stats further, but they still didn't do 50%.

    And more importantly, we just ran JOAT^2, which was Mountainous but with Town having 2 roles. And that still didn't produce a 50% town winrate (but to be clear, I do consider that setup to be balanced, and I think the less than 50% town winrate is entirely attributable to Champs being inherently wolf-sided).

    Conclusion
    If we were to run a Mountainous setup, it certainly shouldn't be 12 vs 3. There is nothing to show that we can expect a balanced season that way, and we would just be repeating a previous season instead of looking to do better.

    So @ everyone suggesting Mountainous, if we were to run Mountainous, what should the exact ratio between mafia to town be?
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    So far, this is the suggestion that I prefer,...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sloonei (#46)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#45)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sloonei (#44)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#42)
    Why not re-use 2x5 or a modified version of it? Don't think there were problems with that setup either.
    What's the exact 2x5 setup?
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...=1#post2685336

    it’s for 17 players so it would have to be modified for 13-15 if we’re set on keeping the game size in that range
    I'd be down for something like that. Just remove all the vigilantes from the matrix to cut it down from 17 players.
    So far, this is the suggestion that I prefer, personally.
  34. #3414

    Thread: Introduce Yourself

    by Thingyman
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    Sticky: Welcome, Mr. Turtle - always exciting to see new...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Turtle (#3413)
    Hi, I'm new to Mafia Universe. I've played mafia and werewolf on different forums and platforms before, but I'm not that experienced yet.
    Welcome, @Mr. Turtle - always exciting to see new faces

    I hope you'll like it here. If you ever have any questions, be sure to ask one of the users with a colored username and they can usually help you.

    Out of curiosity, on which forums have you played before?
  35. #602

    Thread: Survivor Fan Thread

    by Thingyman
    Replies
    601
    Views
    53,091

    Television Daymn, a very shocking ranking, GH :D I'll...

    Daymn, a very shocking ranking, GH

    I'll have to get mine in soon.
  36. #3404

    Thread: Introduce Yourself

    by Thingyman
    Replies
    3,476
    Views
    273,115

    Sticky: Welcome, all of you :D I hope you'll like MU....

    Quote Originally Posted by Vector (#3401)
    Hi, nice to meet you. I've been playing forum mafia on and off for a decade at Bay 12 and was recently invited to join a team game by one of our members.

    I enjoy playing all alignments and usually gravitate towards bastard mod setups or vanilla.

    Other interests include BLTs and coffee.
    Quote Originally Posted by Actvscenei (#3402)
    Hi! I’m new to MU, but not to mafia. I’m excited to join this community!
    Quote Originally Posted by Made (#3403)
    Hi friends,
    new to MU, homesite is Mafia the Syndicate. I heard y'all do mash thingies, and i want to do one of those as some point.

    thanks,
    Made
    Welcome, all of you

    I hope you'll like MU. Be sure to let me or any of the other colored name users know if you have questions or need help with anything
  37. Replies
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    Sticky: I'd be fine with being a secondary, and then the...

    I'd be fine with being a secondary, and then the primary should probably be someone more active on PokerNet than I currently am.

    What about yourself, @Turbo King?
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    At what times of day do you play?

    Quote Originally Posted by lendunistus (#25)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#21)
    Quote Originally Posted by lendunistus (#18)
    pandemic is definitely very solid

    there’s also 3 expansions and a $%#!ton of variants

    we play it weekly using tabletop simulator every sunday on another server, you should join us!
    Update: I finally got around to playing Pandemic.

    At first, it felt like an impossible game... Until we realized that we'd read the win condition wrong. We thought you needed to find the cure AND eradicate all the tokens. After "losing" 4 games in a row, we were so close to giving up :P

    In reality, we'd won 3 of the games, and we were actually one turn away from winning the last one even with the harder rules we imposed on ourselves.

    I'll wait to give a verdict until we've played it again without a feeling of the game being impossible :P
    this is exactly the same thing I did when I first started playing the game lol

    I was so ecstatic when we finally “won” the game, but when I started playing online in other places I realised we had been playing wrong all the time

    offer to join us is still open btw
    At what times of day do you play?
  39. Replies
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    A Thingy Review #2: Dominion 9½ out of 10. ...

    A Thingy Review #2: Dominion

    9½ out of 10.

    I tried this a decade ago online without even knowing that it was apparently a groundbreaking game that invented the whole deckbuilding genre. I remember liking it back then, and playing it with real cards hasn't changed my mind! This will for sure be one of our most played games this year.

    Even with just the core box we feel the game has a lot of replayability as there are so many combinations and strategies to try out. It's just a very satisfying game to play as you feel your engine growing mixed with the tension of actually getting points into your deck in time.

    However, we will admit to having introduced a house rule: The bandit seems too disruptive, so we've chosen to not play with that card in future games :P

    And I mean, the fact that this game has gotten so popular that it's spawned communities with mafia subforums is pretty telling. I think this will prove to be a timeless classic.







  40. Replies
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    Haha, relieved to hear that :D I actually just...

    Quote Originally Posted by KarmaDope (#22)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#21)
    Quote Originally Posted by lendunistus (#18)
    pandemic is definitely very solid

    there’s also 3 expansions and a $%#!ton of variants

    we play it weekly using tabletop simulator every sunday on another server, you should join us!
    Update: I finally got around to playing Pandemic.

    At first, it felt like an impossible game... Until we realized that we'd read the win condition wrong. We thought you needed to find the cure AND eradicate all the tokens. After "losing" 4 games in a row, we were so close to giving up :P

    In reality, we'd won 3 of the games, and we were actually one turn away from winning the last one even with the harder rules we imposed on ourselves.

    I'll wait to give a verdict until we've played it again without a feeling of the game being impossible :P
    You are not the first and will never be the last person to do that I'm pretty sure I did the same on my first every playthrough of it.

    I'm sure you've seen some of my posts in the other site's thread but I'm currently doing a slow 2-player run through of Clank! Legacy. Would highly recommend to anyone, it's one of my top 5 Legacy games.
    Haha, relieved to hear that

    I actually just ordered Clank! (non-legacy one) home, so very excited to play that with the wifey. She and I have gotten really into deckbuilders. And we also just bought My City which will be our soft entry into legacy games. So we'll probably get Clank! Legacy at some point :P

    What is your full top 5 list of legacy games?
  41. Replies
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    Update: I finally got around to playing Pandemic....

    Quote Originally Posted by lendunistus (#18)
    pandemic is definitely very solid

    there’s also 3 expansions and a $%#!ton of variants

    we play it weekly using tabletop simulator every sunday on another server, you should join us!
    Update: I finally got around to playing Pandemic.

    At first, it felt like an impossible game... Until we realized that we'd read the win condition wrong. We thought you needed to find the cure AND eradicate all the tokens. After "losing" 4 games in a row, we were so close to giving up :P

    In reality, we'd won 3 of the games, and we were actually one turn away from winning the last one even with the harder rules we imposed on ourselves.

    I'll wait to give a verdict until we've played it again without a feeling of the game being impossible :P
  42. Replies
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    I've bought both Pandemic and Mysterium, but have...

    Quote Originally Posted by lendunistus (#7)
    anybody played Pandemic?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunbae (#9)
    Mysterium is excellent and a blast every time we play it.

    I'd like to give some shout out to a couple of games more focused on cards: "Love Letter" and "Sushi Go". Both of these games are short, easy to pick up, yet provide entertainment game after game after game.
    I've bought both Pandemic and Mysterium, but have yet to play them. Hopefully will get to it soon!

    It's funny how one can change with regards to board games. Because I remember a group of us trying to learn and play Pandemic in a board game cafe like 4 years ago, and after looking at the rules for 20 minutes we gave up and chose another game that we could more quickly learn and play.

    But now I'm used to playing more complicated games, so I'm curious to know how the experience of opening the rulebook to Pandemic this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by nutella (#14)
    New one my bf and I have been enjoying, Kodama Duo. You make trees and it's really prettyyy






    also gonna spontaneously list a handful of my other all time favs but probably forgetting plenty of great ones too
    - Tokaido (usually one of the first that comes to mind as a favorite. it's just so gorgeous aaaaa)
    - Root (v cute)
    - Splendor
    - Gizmos (some similarity to splendor but more complex and has cool lil marbles)
    - Azul (hmm i just like games with uniquely satisfying little pieces huh)
    - Bohnanza (the bean game!!! trading and stuff, cute art, also the Duel version is pretty different with a bluffing mechanic that is also fun)
    - Sushi Go
    - Ramen Fury
    - Jaipur
    - Dominion (the expansions have just gotten crazier and crazier tbh)
    - Eminent Domain
    - Nexus Ops (been a while but played a lot in college)
    - Smallworld (ditto)
    - King of Tokyo/New York (ditto; pretty silly but fun)
    - Ascension
    - Galaxy Trucker (that Czech guy who made Codenames has made lots of other good stuff, both this one and Space Alert have fun real-time-pressure stuff)
    - Carcassonne
    - Isle of Skye (sorta like carcassonne with extra mechanics)
    - Coup (like Resistance/Avalon meets Citadels kinda?)
    - Nothing Personal (eyy mafia theme. the "influence" mechanic is cool)
    - Gloomhaven (was super into it for like 6 months or so, unlocked most stuff)
    - Pandemic Legacy (lol, played through like half of it in 2020)
    looks like a solid list. Most of these games are either already in my collection or on my wishlist with the exception of Ramen Fury, Eminent Domain, Nexus Ops and Nothing Personal. I'll watch some videos on those!
  43. I've heard very good things about this, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunbae (#4)
    Recently played Potion Explosion for the first time and it ended up being a blast
    I've heard very good things about this, but unfortunately it seems to be out of print or something? At least it's not in stock anywhere in Denmark :/
  44. A Thingy Review #1: Tsuro A 8½/10 for me. It...

    A Thingy Review #1: Tsuro

    A 8½/10 for me. It does what it does pretty perfectly.

    I remember first seeing this game on Wil Wheaton's TableTop show on YouTube, and I was just immediately hooked.

    It's fast-paced, it's very light, it's tile-laying, and it has a dragon theme with excellent components to match! What's not to love?

    My brother described this game as a competitive board game version of Snake, which I find to be a pretty good description. You can really play to mess others up, you can plan ahead, or you can just enjoy the puzzle aspect of it all.

    Many would have this as a filler game in their collection, but I can honestly keep playing this. Unfortunately, this is one of the few games where the wifey and I disagree - she isn't as fond of it as me :/









    (If you enjoy my pictures, you can follow me on IG: @boardgamehubby)
  45. The Board Game Discussion and Appreciation Thread

    The Board Game Discussion and Appreciation Thread

    Hey everyone!

    Inspired by a similar thread on another forum and by my own increased interest in board games this past year I thought it might be fun with a thread dedicated to board games

    After all, we do love playing games here, and werewolf/mafia does exist as board games/card games. Many of you might've even been introduced to the game this way (I wasn't, personally).

    Anyway, this is a thread for whatever: Pictures, recommendations, reviews, random thoughts or exciting links or news. Or maybe you're looking for opponents on Board Game Arena or something :P
  46. Replies
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    People should definitely sign up for this mash!

    People should definitely sign up for this mash!
  47. Replies
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    Game Thread NIGHT 5 Yayap was killed. He was The Simpsons,...

    NIGHT 5


    Yayap was killed. He was The Simpsons, the longest-running scripted prime time television series in the United States (Vanilla Townie):



    Day 5 begins now.
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    All podcasts are now uploaded Find them on...

    All podcasts are now uploaded

    Find them on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/MrThingyman/videos

    Or Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mrthingyman/videos

    As well as Spotify and other audio services (just search for Mafia Championship podcast).

    Unfortunately I lost episode 12 (which discussed Game 11) because I forgot to save it in time on Twitch.

    Also, as a bonus I've uploaded two new mafia cover songs



  49. Replies
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    All podcasts are now uploaded Find them on...

    All podcasts are now uploaded

    Find them on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/MrThingyman/videos

    Or Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mrthingyman/videos

    As well as Spotify and other audio services (just search for Mafia Championship podcast).

    Unfortunately I lost episode 12 (which discussed Game 11) because I forgot to save it in time on Twitch.

    Also, as a bonus I've uploaded two new mafia cover songs



  50. Replies
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    Asking for your support Hi everyone This...

    Asking for your support

    Hi everyone

    This thread hasn't been bumped since 2018, and I think it's because we or I have always felt weird about asking for your help.

    But the situation has changed and I've been unemployed for a few months, so I am writing this post in the hopes that maybe some of you out there will want to support our Patreon. Everything you give to the Patreon goes to server costs and Makaze.

    Currently, I am paying $68.75 a month to cover the server and that has started to become an expense that I can't easily cover anymore. Anything you're willing to donate will help out a lot.

    And finally, thank you to all those who have supported or are currently supporting our Patreon. I am immensely thankful.
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about us
Mafia Universe is a community hub for people who enjoy playing the forum variant of Mafia (also known as Werewolf). We offer fully automated Mafia games and a wide variety of customized features crafted to optimize your game experience. We also proudly host the Internet's only database of Mafia/Werewolf communities.

We hope you stick around!
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The Judge may each night choose to kill someone who was on the lynch bandwagon during the most recent day phase.