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  1. Postgame#646

    Thread: TcoDf Invitational

    by Phoenixsong
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    Completed See, now who's bringing up super ancient games?...

    Quote Originally Posted by bbt (#641)
    @Phoenixsong, I'm sorry even here you couldn't escape dying N1...
    See, now who's bringing up super ancient games? This honestly hasn't been a thing for years, haha. It sucked while it was happening (and also really only mattered during night starts), but TCoD has actually been allowing me to play Mafia for a good while now! Now what I'm working on is getting permission to survive to endgame more than once in a blue moon. :P

    Thanks for setting this up, Eifie, and big thanks to @Mantichora for running this and putting up with our nonsense!

    I don't think I have the brainpower to play another game for a little bit, but look forward to the next time I can, heh. Although I am sorely tempted to try running some stuff again... maybe something a little different from the usual fare.
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    Heh, no need to apologize. You gotta make what...

    Quote Originally Posted by Panini (#36)
    Special apology to PhoenixSong! I had no idea you get killed often on N1, I just thought you were giving off PR vibes by trying to get such a well rounded view of the game but also not pushing in any particular direction very hard.
    Heh, no need to apologize. You gotta make what seems like the smart play! It really doesn't happen as often as they made it sound, anyway, at least not anymore. It was a thing in like, the early early early early early days of TCoDf mafia, and frankly was a fair bit more frustrating due to night starts being the norm, so it meant that after apparently being "good" at like two games everyone was terrified of me and I never actually got to play. But like I said, that was ages ago. As long as I get to participate, I'm fine--and that was a hell of a D1 compared to our normal pace so I feel like I got to make/read a whole game's worth of posts anyway! TBH you kinda did me a favor because my brain checked out hard after the first day and I wasn't sure I'd be able to get going again, haha. Curse you internet/executive dysfunction, etc., etc..

    But yes, it was a lot of fun playing with you, and perhaps after my brain settles back down I'd love to do it again! If it's any consolation, you had me fooled up until the counterclaim there!

    (also MD I forgot to say so earlier but that article was. amazing. MD for admin of Mafia Universe 2K19)
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    Ha, not all that surprised. Sorry for the...

    Ha, not all that surprised. Sorry for the mislynch, Skylar! I hope you had a good time for most of D1 regardless, haha.
  4. Day 1#258

    Thread: TcoDf Invitational

    by Phoenixsong
    Replies
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    13,629

    Completed Okay there's basically no time left but I really...

    Okay there's basically no time left but I really need to look more closely at Eifie and MD because I'm not 100% sure on the active defending/pushing part because skimming and argh???
  5. Day 1#253

    Thread: TcoDf Invitational

    by Phoenixsong
    Replies
    647
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    13,629

    Completed Attempting more (rambly, stream of...

    Attempting more (rambly, stream of consciousness-ish, rushed due to approaching EOD) thoughts about the likelyish lynch candidates, whether actively on the block or I've just noticed a lot of discussion about them:

    DA: As much as I traditionally lean toward keeping the playerlist full of active people, I would also like to give her a chance to actually play the game. More importantly, though, I do think that when given a choice between lynching "this person is null because I have no idea what is even up with them" and "this person is net null because I'm getting both good feels and bad feels", I'd probably pick the net null because that feels like it'd provide more information (confirming or denying the suspicions and then giving appropriate context) than lynching a slot that is effectively random. Since DarkAura falls under that "I don't even know" category, I'd kind of rather go after someone else; if a DA train starts up I suppose I can live with it, but she's not my first choice at all.

    qva: Starting to get mildly off feels here? Most of that is gut and I'm not happy with myself about that. Definitely noticing the defensiveness, but am not sure how I feel about how said defensiveness spent a long time focusing on theory (the value of an innocent lynch) over anything else. I don't know what that tells me? Honestly I think more of the feeling is coming from how other people are reacting to this train/the initial votes than from Skylar's own behavior, which is eh...

    Keldeo: Eh... I appreciate the clarification about why it was so much easier to focus on Eifie, but there's a part of me that's still thinking that surely it must've been possible to get a very loose opinion on someone else, like Skylar or someone else who was reasonably active, just based on their recent posts even without doing a full ISO. Like, I would at least try to keep up with in-the-moment opinions so I could mention them if asked, and just keep them in mind for the context of the proper ISO later? But it's certainly possible that the aforementioned internet troubles interfered with that, and I'm feeling that pain right now myself, so... hm. I... I still can't commit to any sort of notable townlean here, but I want to see where this goes before seriously considering a lynch.

    I kind of feel like Eifie's desire to back down on this is coloring my own opinion here, which doesn't make sense because I don't have the meta on him that she does, nor was I feeling particularly "paranoid" about it. Gah.

    MD: The thoughts on theory and wondering what people are basing their reads on seem genuine, but don't really indicate alignment to me. I have started to wonder whether the fact that she voted Skylar but hasn't really been arguing for it (unlike Panini, although even she hasn't so much been arguing to push this lynch so much as explaining why an innocent flip still provides useful intel) might be some light distancing? If at some point Skylar flips scum this is a direction I'm probably going to look, but I don't know that I feel that strongly about it given MD also hasn't been in-thread a ton to do that backing up in the first place. I'd need some kind of confirmation to pursue this more seriously, as otherwise she's still fairly null.

    Hm. In general I don't get the impression that anyone's really been pushing for Skylar's lynch, but that it's in part because there hasn't been a particularly strong defense to push back against in the first place? Eifie's really the only one who's been saying "I'm not feeling a qva lynch", but it doesn't feel like the people who are for and the people (person) who are against have actually been interacting much over the issue, and I'm not sure what to make of it.

    Argh. I... I guess if I had to pick someone, it'd be qva? I don't feel the best about it, but like I said, I'd rather vote in the direction of "conflicted" than "can't read at all", and given that I'm starting to give a bit of side-eye to both Eifie and MD's movements here, I think that's where the most information lies.

    ##Vote qva
  6. Day 1#229

    Thread: TcoDf Invitational

    by Phoenixsong
    Replies
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    13,629

    Completed Caught up now, still processing some info. Did...

    Caught up now, still processing some info. Did see Keldeo's request to put a vote somewhere and will get to that once I've done some ISOing. Responding to a few things in the meantime:

    Quote Originally Posted by antialiasis (#163)

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixsong (#136)
    (For the record I'm not in love with calling Keldeo "strong town" just yet, but I'm willing to reserve judgment on that for a bit pending my question below.)
    Minor note, but I didn't call Keldeo "strong town", I called him "definitely my strongest townread". I'm not calling anyone "strong town" at this stage in the game; I think that would always be premature on D1.
    Sorry, that was poor wording/formatting on my part. I know that's not what you meant; I just didn't feel like typing "strongest townread" and meant the quotes more like... air quotes, I guess? rather than a direct quotation. In retrospect that's pretty easy to be unclear about, so my bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panini (#171)
    I’m beginning to feel a very general sense of unease about how best to proceed with this game and I think that it’s in large part because I’m unsure how much of what I’m feeling is just the side effects of mafia culture clash and how much is actually due to justified discomfort.

    We’re officially into the last quarter of the day and I still don’t really have very much footing to go off of, even though a lot has been said by almost all of the players in the game. That’s really hard to swallow for me, personally, as someone who’s used to having a scum read waved in her face like 15 posts into a thread here. It feels like a lot of what I been taught over time makes for optimum town play just isn’t really gelling here.

    On one hand I really want to respect your guys’ meta as a whole and understand where you’re coming from. I’m still gradually piecing together a picture of what exactly that looks like and how much it should be affecting my reads but I think I’m getting a better sense of it over time and it’s important I’m not needlessly side-eyeing something that’s actually very commonplace in your community. (see the DarkAura section below).

    But on the other hand it does kind of leave me going “well what now?” when I consider all the things that would be things to talk about from my perspective kind of fall into the We Just Don’t Do That zone. And I also think part of the fun and point in me being here is to share a bit of outsider playstyle, so I’m kind of resigned to continue to play the way that makes me feel most comfortable.
    I wouldn't feel too concerned about sticking to where you're comfortable--I think part of Eifie's whole point in initiating this game was to give us a chance to learn more about vanilla+ play, haha. Obviously understanding our meta is important when it comes to reading us, but--and I apologize if I'm misconstruing how you're feeling about this, do correct me if needed--it's not like that invalidates how you'd usually read someone. I, at least, wouldn't expect to be cut any slack for it. If there are points you want to bring up about how you're approaching you're read, I'm open to the alternative perspective!

    ...I feel like I'm misunderstanding something here now, lol. But basically--you do you, you're basically the expert when it comes to this style of game and I'm all right with getting schooled, or at least reanalyzing where my own perspectives come from.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbt (#149)
    I kind of get LAMIST (Look At Me I'm So Towny) vibes from P#136 (specifically the bit about saying you're going to ask each person questions about someone they haven't talked about); that is, it feels like it could be something posted with the intention of sort of showing off how towny you are. On one hand, it's a very you thing to do regardless of alignment because you've always been one of the people to try really hard to get everyone to participate; but on the other hand, it's not like people aren't participating here, so I don't know how far to go with writing that off as the motivation.
    I'm definitely loving the activity level in this game, and yeah there's a part of me that's used to having to chase half the player list around with Fatherly Disappointment 'cause it feels like they ain't playing the game they signed up to play. My intent here was less "spur activity because my default is to assume no one is talking sadface", and really more an attempt to refine my understanding of where everyone stands. People've been talking, but at the time it felt like there were a fair few light tunnels being dug, and that's helpful info and all but I wanted to see whether people were paying attention to the rest of the game rather than whether they're paying attention to the game as a whole.

    (Man, so many people have such a high opinion of my scum game, heh. I don't exactly have the win record to back that up! Most of the time I roll scum I just feel like a tryhard who keeps charging into the thread because I MUST LOOK INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM TOWN-ME and also my frustration over constant lurking is a thing no matter my alignment, but then my recklessness gets my $%#! handed to me. Fairly consistently. Eifie says she remembers Reverse Mafia, yeah, well, I'm pretty sure that if I hadn't been so loud to the guy who turned out to be the cop I wouldn't've convinced him to come forward with a guilty on me, so!)

    Okay there's under an hour left I better get on those ISOs argh
  7. Day 1#207

    Thread: TcoDf Invitational

    by Phoenixsong
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    13,629

    Completed Ooookay, been having internet troubles and...

    Ooookay, been having internet troubles and they're... not... solved?... but circumvented for now, at least. I can get work done for now, anyway, and will do what I can to get caught up on yesterday/what's gone on so far today. Sorry for disappearing, I'm still here, just... internet. Do ping me if there's anything urgent you want to bring to my attention while I'm catching up!
  8. Day 1#136

    Thread: TcoDf Invitational

    by Phoenixsong
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    13,629

    Completed So here's where I think I am on everyone else...

    So here's where I think I am on everyone else right now, based on a bit of rereading and ISOing. Also, at the end of each summary I'm going to ask each person their opinion of a player or few I haven't really seen them talk about. If you have talked about them and I missed it/forgot, sorry! Feel free to point those thoughts out to me, but it would also be nice if you could then talk about someone that you actually haven't talked about yet! No need to full ISO for that, though of course you're welcome to—just your gut/what you remember is fine for right now. Spread the love!

    In no particular order:

    -Keldeo: So apparently there are other games I can go read and I have all the retention ability of a tennis ball, but without having read that yet and therefore having no context, I feel mostly townish here? I'm wondering whether that's more gut than logic, though. I keep wanting to say that he's been making a lot of effortful posts that come across steady and sincere, but looking at the ISO I'm seeing a lot more conversational posts than analytical ones. Most of the analytical ones are, as I see Eifie has recently pointed out, about Eifie, giving opinions or clarifying them or defending them. A few other players have been poked at, but that's it, really. I suppose that's reasonable considering she's probably the easiest for him to read and she's got more posts for him to analyze compared to the rest of us. Does mean that I am very much looking forward to his thoughts on the rest of our ISOs when his internet cooperates, though, because I don't get a good sense of how he feels about anyone else, and we've reached a point where I think that would be more helpful than continued discussion of Eifie unless his opinion on her 180s. @Keldeo, if you get a chance pre-full-ISO, how do you feel about Panini right now? Also, you mentioned a meta read on Butterfree that you were waiting to see if she confirmed/disproved—any more thoughts on that, or no? Especially now that her ISOing is done?

    -Skylar: I've got no right to complain about volume of words/relevant information ratio ('sup kettle, you're black, etc.), so I'll just say that I appreciate the effort being put in there, at least. I don't really agree about the scumminess of antialiasis's opinion; I didn't actually read her post as "pushing back" against others who did want to proceed that way, just as kinda defensive. She's already gone and explained herself since I started putting this post together (wow this weekend has been busier than I thought) and that's essentially how I read it, so yeah. I don't feel like qva was grasping at straws with that, though (there are easier targets, I think), and while I don't have a very strong feeling here I'm liking the greater confidence and willingness to analyze compared to the last game I remember us playing together (though as earlier posts may indicate, perhaps I am forgetting a more recent one!). That said, as with Keldeo, that confidence has largely been focused on talking about one person so far, which... could be better. @qva: what is your opinion on me, hm hm hm? How's my driving?

    -MD: is an enigma! And as such all is right with the world. Frankly I'd be concerned if she hadn't come in swinging with the surreality (is... is that a word). For serious, though, I do find her hard to read, delightful as she is. I feel like her stronger opinions start to mix in with the delightfulness later in the game and feel like I'll probably be able to pick them out at that time, but for now my read on MD is MD. Let's see how quickly that changes! @Music Dragon: how do you really feel about Ollytron? And perhaps Skylar, while you're at it?

    -Butterfree: As indicated above, I don't see the post about wanting to commit to reads early on as alignment-indicative. I agree with parts of that, honestly, although personally I feel like actively fishing for more opinions is more useful than just observing even if you're not willing to commit yet. But anyway! So far this is mostly the Butterfree I remember from other games, and most of those games as far as I'm aware have been town—top of my head I only remember observing her as scum in Meowfia and being scum together in Negrek's Reverse Mafia ages ago, and definitely the worse of the two scum in that game was me, haha. But she plays very convincing town when she's scum, so I'm still leaning nullish here. I'll feel better about her (or worse) when she feels ready to give stronger reads. (For the record I'm not in love with calling Keldeo "strong town" just yet, but I'm willing to reserve judgment on that for a bit pending my question below.)

    @antialiasis just finished ISOing literally everyone, so I suppose my probing doesn't apply for now, but when you're back in the morning: you've said you like Keldeo's analysis of Eifie, but do you have thoughts on the fact that he hasn't really touched on anyone else thus far?

    -Eifie: Has done a pretty good job offering opinions on multiple other people so far once the RVS stuff was out of the way. Pretty much everyone who's posted, I think, aside from me possibly? Short, but most of the time I find her reasoning pretty easy to follow so she's getting to the point and that's nice. Some jumpiness over RNP's response to me, which I agree sounded mostly jokey. I dunno... I'm having trouble seeing it as anything other than a joke post so I wonder about reaching here, but I think I'm feeling stronger town on eif than anyone else at the moment. I'm not 100% convinced yet, but atm I feel a bit better than most. @bbt, do you have any thoughts on me, and/or on RNP outside of the one recent post that jumped out at you? (Also, feel better!)

    -RNP: Null, 'cause I mean, yeah, he pretty much always plays like this regardless of role: short, infrequent posts, takes a bit of goading to get an actual opinion out of him. But opinions are a thing he's said he's interested in giving more of this game, so let's see if we can see to that! Now that there's more to go on, @Redneckphoenix, how do you feel about Keldeo? It'd be particularly interesting to get your opinion on his interactions with Eifie so far.

    -Panini: As I said before, I've got no context here! So far I'm seeing a bit of analysis and questioning of Eifie's posts and the discussion about D1 reads with Butterfree, which reads as genuine enough for now so I'm feeling a touch of town here, but I need to see more! @Panini, I have a challenge for you: do you feel like you have any reads on the mysterious, magical Music Dragon at this point? I will also accept thoughts on qva. Bonus points: you've talked with antialiasis for a bit and given your opinion on the value of exaggerating et al; has any of this extra discussion given you a read/changed your read?

    - @DarkAura: Get on over here, you! Sorry for all the catchup you're gonna have to do, haha. I'd love to hear your opinion on, well, everyone in the game when you get a chance, since by the time you get here there should be lots to think about, but if you're looking for a quick starting point I'd appreciate it if you could tell me how you feel about qva and/or Butterfree?

    boy I sure hope all those mentions work, I have a feeling that at least MD's won't oops

    @ me if you'd like me to clarify something or want my opinion on something I don't seem to have touched on! I'm going to be busy for a few hours and am also trying not to further ruin my sleep schedule by going to bed at why-o'-clock in the morning yet again, but I'll probably check in a few more times before I'm properly off.
  9. Day 1#131

    Thread: TcoDf Invitational

    by Phoenixsong
    Replies
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    13,629

    Completed Yeah, Clover's mafia. I only remember how it went...

    Quote Originally Posted by bbt (#71)
    @Phoenixsong: literally what is AAMafia 2 lmao. Do you mean Clover's Ace Attorney mafia which was like 8.5 years ago?! We played together in ASB Halloween mafia ~a year ago. I was scum with Keldeo there.
    Yeah, Clover's mafia. I only remember how it went because I randomly got curious and reread it a few weeks ago. So disappointed in my fellow townies, that was just shameful :/ But oh yeah, I forgot there were recent ASB mafias, whoops. I told you my memory isn't good!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keldeo (#82)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixsong (#66)
    -Keldeo: I don't think I've ever played with him? I think?
    Aside from the ASB Halloween Mafia, we also played together in MF's Third-Party Party Mafia around a year ago, where I was the cop and you were the mafia who gave out fake guns and vests!
    Ah, that's right, thanks. God I cannot rememeber a thing. I should probably go read through that again.

    Quote Originally Posted by antialiasis (#89)
    We don't have ISOing on our home board but let me tell you, after Championships last year I am a fan.
    Don't we? It's not called "ISO" and isn't quite as convenient to access, but accessing only a single user's posts in a thread is default VB. You just go to the forum the thread is in, click on the postcount of the thread, and then it shows you users by postcount and lets you click an individual user's postcount to view only their posts. (Although now that I compare the two, our forum only shows summaries of the posts rather than the entire post, so maybe that's what you meant, hm. Maybe that setting can be changed in the admin, though?)

    Quote Originally Posted by qva (#84)
    by the way, i realize it's early for this, but what are everyone's thoughts on abstaining day one? i ask because i've heard before that abstaining day one is bad. not sure what the group feeling is on what should be achieved today
    I don't like it because lynches are information, and also the only weapon that the majority of the town has when it comes to actually eliminating scum. Reads are important and all, but they have to lead to some sort of action, and if the town doesn't lynch then the mafia alone decides every single player who dies. I suppose it can be better or worse depending on the number of players currently alive, but you're still giving up info that you need to read people and understand the context of the flipped person's posts.

    If people feel like they're starting to get leans and light reads and "gut feelings", honestly, to me even that is better information to lynch on than random or outright no-lynching.

    Going to give my current thoughts on the state of things in a separate post; this is getting long, aha.
  10. Day 1#66

    Thread: TcoDf Invitational

    by Phoenixsong
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    13,629

    Completed I don't really want to answer for antialiasis,...

    I don't really want to answer for antialiasis, Panini, and since she's played vanillaesque mafia more recently than I have she probably has a bit more practice getting early reads. But for some general context (which I know applies to me, at least) I think even the more active players in TCoDfia tend to have a little trouble getting townreads that are worth speculating on early in games. (Or, if people are getting them, they don't necessarily always share? We should make more of an effort to change that if so.) Mostly because in our meta--usually role madness and usually night start, so there's often some kind of action to go off of on D1--if nothing obviously strange happens then the large number of relatively quiet players we have just... tend not to post other than to say "I'm here". Lurking happens a lot for a fair few of our common players and isn't really AI either, so unfortunately early days tend to devolve into the more gregarious or aggressive players pushing for other people to talk and not really getting anywhere until a few nights later when more actions have happened and can be compared to whatever earlier behavior there is.

    All that to say that I, at least, am rusty as all get-out at earlygame scumhunting. Doing my best to brush the rust off and look at what's happened so far, though:

    -Eifie: Haven't played with her often (I think the last game that actually finished that we were both players in was... AAMafia 2? oh dear god that was forever ago? is that true oh god please tell me there's a more recent game I'm forgetting), but in brief, the joke qva vote is null to me, eagerness to discuss and explain afterwards comes off as... bitsy townlean? I know she wasn't as talkative as scum in AAM2, though possibly in part because the rest of the town being too shy to participate even when directly prompted (argh) made it reeeeally easy for her and the other remaining maf to coast. But that was Forever Ago and that may well not be relevant analysis anymore.

    -antialiasis: Mostly null. She's pretty good at appearing aggressive even when she's scum (that last game you guys played was *blows kiss* I mean damn) and in general is pretty open; think I need to see another of those posts from her to really decide, but I... I thiiiink I can tell when her pushing her gut and her leads is more genuine than not? That last game confused me, man. My trust is wounded. (But yes, can probably tell more after she speaks up again, hopefully.)

    -Keldeo: I don't think I've ever played with him? I think? My memory is bad and I need to catch a bus soon, blah. Don't think I've observed him in any recent games, either. Can't really get a meta read, then, but is currently coming across as fairly sincere? Again, though, I have no idea what that means with him.

    -Panini: No meta, obvs, but I like the early willingness to dig in. Can't really say it gives a significant townlean if I can't for Keldeo, though.

    -RNP: Is usually quiet, I think? Even during early discussion stuff. Null.

    -Other people: Hello! Talk a bit more, there are things to talk about now!

    okay bus gotta run

    (And yes, feel free to keep calling me Kratos if that's easier. Honestly I'd meant to change my TCoD name back to Phoenixsong aaaages ago but Kratos just... stuck? So. It's fine.)
  11. Day 1#38

    Thread: TcoDf Invitational

    by Phoenixsong
    Replies
    647
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    13,629

    Completed Yeah, Terry T. Him I definitely remember, haha....

    Quote Originally Posted by bbt (#34)
    Currently trying to guess Kratos' flavour while being unable to remember which PMs I wrote. I'm guessing Terry T? Or Negrek's boat, if I didn't take that one out.
    Yeah, Terry T. Him I definitely remember, haha. Dealing with him in ASB was... fun.

    Okay maybe I recognize about 50% of the stated memes so far? Which is far better than I thought I'd do.
  12. Day 1#28

    Thread: TcoDf Invitational

    by Phoenixsong
    Replies
    647
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    13,629

    Completed Hello all! Excited to get this show on the road!...

    Hello all! Excited to get this show on the road!

    For the record I was also confused by my PM flavor, and I'm actually from the site, lol. I remember part of it, but definitely not Ollytron? Whoops.

    clearly signing up for this game was a mistake, the only TCoD meme I'd even recognize is the banner image, I'm the worst
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    Yeah, I'm aware that you meant full...

    Yeah, I'm aware that you meant full doc/neapolitan.

    I'm okay with the one-shot RB, sure.
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    I mean, I'm curious about how the even/odd would...

    I mean, I'm curious about how the even/odd would play out, but I'd be okay with the neapolitan as well. I'm not particularly uncomfortable with vanillaish setups (I do prefer role madness but have played/run vanilla/vanillaish before) so I'm fine deferring to other people who might want to ease in or have a stronger opinion or something.

    Uh if you need something decisive then I guess consider this a vote for neapolitan > cop because I think the name is really clever?

    Also, hi Panini! Nice to meet you!
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