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    Completed What a wild path we all took. Gg!

    What a wild path we all took. Gg!
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    Completed I need to uhhhh, $%#!ing vote, don't I? Or do we...

    I need to uhhhh, $%#!ing vote, don't I? Or do we let it not hit majority?
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    Completed I don't know how to describe more that my brain...

    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#688)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammy (#684)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#496)
    yeah i don't mind vig claiming here

    hashtag still not the vig
    So my thoughts on Ara's vig request have been that it's a scum play since the start. Ara had given her reason in initial post why it'd be town beneficial, but seemed way too risky, from a beginner perspective. She claims that she feared the inactivity which I get because she only got to talk to 2 people that night and couldn't gain more from others who were gone. But I might be grasping here, but say town does benefit from doing this vig poll, you're still going to need people to come back to the thread and answer. I feel it's not too crazy to wait for people to respond to the things you've pressed them on and leave the vig question at the door. The posts/ responses/ and following insight you get are all still going to be relative to who responds and the eventual when. If that makes sense in words. In more harsher terms, you spent 12 hours waiting and thinking and all you came up with was a risky gamble for town? There weren't better lines of thought for you in those 12 hours?


    I bring this quote up though, because it's interesting to me. I think me and Amy had the same impressions very early on: why this question? But at the same time, if this is a wolf trap we BOTH very willingly went and fell into it on sight. I'm curious to your mindset at the time immediately after Ara put the post.

    For my reasons, honestly I didn't have many aside from just thinking "Okay, maybe this could help." at the time. But given about 30 minutes later to think on it I really was hit more with "Is this as beneficial for town? I don't think so."
    Why wasn't this your initial reaction to her request?
    I don't know how to describe more that my brain can sometimes just be empty. It takes me time to think and I was part way through making my other posts to where I was like "Huh?"

    It's a difference between giving a very short response and a long one. Simply saying "not vig" is quick and easy as opposed to typing longer posts. I did not give myself time to think as I reintroduced myself to the thread.
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    Completed So my thoughts on Ara's vig request have been...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#496)
    yeah i don't mind vig claiming here

    hashtag still not the vig
    So my thoughts on Ara's vig request have been that it's a scum play since the start. Ara had given her reason in initial post why it'd be town beneficial, but seemed way too risky, from a beginner perspective. She claims that she feared the inactivity which I get because she only got to talk to 2 people that night and couldn't gain more from others who were gone. But I might be grasping here, but say town does benefit from doing this vig poll, you're still going to need people to come back to the thread and answer. I feel it's not too crazy to wait for people to respond to the things you've pressed them on and leave the vig question at the door. The posts/ responses/ and following insight you get are all still going to be relative to who responds and the eventual when. If that makes sense in words. In more harsher terms, you spent 12 hours waiting and thinking and all you came up with was a risky gamble for town? There weren't better lines of thought for you in those 12 hours?


    I bring this quote up though, because it's interesting to me. I think me and Amy had the same impressions very early on: why this question? But at the same time, if this is a wolf trap we BOTH very willingly went and fell into it on sight. I'm curious to your mindset at the time immediately after Ara put the post.

    For my reasons, honestly I didn't have many aside from just thinking "Okay, maybe this could help." at the time. But given about 30 minutes later to think on it I really was hit more with "Is this as beneficial for town? I don't think so."
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    Completed The bolded brings up a good point that I hadn't...

    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#555)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammy (#505)
    Now as I look at the votes and how they switched after my bombshell, it makes some interesting things light up, and I might be totally off base, but I find Ara's votes just as interesting. Ara, you've since that move expressed a huge dislike for it, and I don't disagree! But it is wild who ended up on my bus at the end and where they came from. It was Ara, me, and Dunn on Bee before the swap. Dunn switches to me very naturally because he thinks me wolf and now we're at direct odds. Barring sus he had on anyone, he thinks me a wolf trying to kill him and fights back, totally cool. But then Ara dislikes my play so much that she jumps off of the previous wagon of Bee onto me along with Len. I'm a huge risk and a huge wolf at that point, but aside from massive dislike I'm not fully clear as to why in that moment you jumped. From a very surface level, to me, it looks like you jumped to, potentially, vote with your theoretical other wolf, Len. Which puts me at a potential Ara/ Len w/w.

    So a few questions for Ara:
    In the lightning round, you gave Len a townread but definitely couldn't elaborate more on it in the short time. Could you elaborate now?
    Could you also give your reason for your switch from Bee to me?

    You've been amazingly helpful in guiding this game, keeping the hype, and asking questions, but it's not impossible that that's a bad thing. It could be indicative of strong wolfing. That other post about outright asking who the vig is... doesn't really sit well with me. You've laid out good reasons for why it's good for town to get that info, but it's just as easy to target them during the night phase and be hugely detrimental to town.

    On the real I'm hoping that I'm wrong. I want HYPE!Ara to be town and stick around.
    I'm assuming the bolded is aimed towards me, here? Not much else to elaborate on, you've actually already stated what I was thinking; yes, I strongly disliked your EoD then and still do actually!!! I simply happen to think you're probably town off of other things, just with a TWTBAW EoD!!! I suppose for further insight, I had already been shrug at the Dunn wagon (and was keeping earlier points of his that I felt were towny in mind), though without the confidence/people not seeming to want the Beeboy wagon, figured I'd try out yours and see where it went!!

    Also, I'm not really sure what you mean with regards to your second sentence? Why is Len my "theoretical other wolf" there? I had her in my light townreads at that point... you might have mixed my reads up with someone else?

    Regarding my posting about the vig claiming, I believe I laid out fairly clearly there the reasons why it was more beneficial than not for town to know the vig, not sure what else I can add there!!! Yes, mafia benefit by knowing who the PR is as well, but as I said, I believe we benefit more!!

    ...That being said, if we do end up hitting town today then I may not overly be opposed to SR shooting anyways if he feels strongly about something!!!

    The bolded brings up a good point that I hadn't considered: my analysis only brings up parity rather than anything else, to which you're right, it's either a double town vote or a double wolf vote. So maybe it's not a wolf vote at all!
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    Completed I genuinely don't know how I'm actively being...

    I genuinely don't know how I'm actively being performative. I didn't have a lot of time on my voting and kinda panic hopped. I can see how my theories were worded performatively, but that's just part of how I post. If anything I just got excited, but there's consistency in me giving a lot of credit to people that are kind of opposed to me in almost all my posts, I think. I also think a plan to wolf flip at the 11th hour seems like too huge of a big brain play and a kind of risky one. To entrust the noob to pull off a specific and overly flashy kind of bluff/ act in the way it did as opposed to any other safer strategy.

    As it's 5AM, I gotta sleep, but I'll leave off with a meme translated from the above paragraph:

    My voting is performative, my theories are performative, everything I do is performative... Can't have $%#! in Detroit.
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    Completed Oh, idk if it shifts the whole thread. I just got...

    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#536)


    How exactly did it realign the thread? I don't think me outing as vig has caused any sort or shift in the thread at all outside of Amy's response to me and confidence on SSR.
    Oh, idk if it shifts the whole thread. I just got an inkling of it being weird when doing my Len post, and then it's all been about Amy and her (seeming) opinion that Ara's question also felt odd to her. Going back a few questions it just follows that since Amy's read of Ara's vig question makes Ara no longer solidly in town, that she wouldn't be on the clear list and would therefore be in suspicion. I think it's just me and Amy that are expressing concern and affecting the thread.
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    Completed I believe the suspicion on Ara has skyrocketed...

    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#532)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#525)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#522)
    Ngl, some concern here Amy is trying to sort of throw $%#! everywhere and make it more chaotic
    there are literally 3 slots that i'm suspicious of? in a game with 2 wolves alive? and i'm currently looking into the overlap between possible wolfteams, because i don't really see partners for ara OR ssr outside of jav; certainly i don't think they're partnered with each other

    when i clear you/hammy/len, which i feel pretty comfortable doing, the game turns into a teambuilding exercise
    Mmm. I guess it's mainly you pulling Ara back in to consideration when you really had no suspicion on her prior that I can recall?
    I believe the suspicion on Ara has skyrocketed after her asking for vig. Which is a shame because one way or another it was a good post to realign the thread, but we'll have to nail more and probably look at past posts to get a really, really solid wolfread. (The wolfread is looking solid already, but can be swayed)
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    Completed My best guess given this theory is that Dunn was...

    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#509)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammy (#503)
    Okay, to maybe bring some conversation back to life here, Amy asked who I'd shoot if I had two bullets. I'll start with the less spicy one, but I also want to preface with: I've read all the posts for day 2, but they don't have much bearing on the following thoughts. Most of these things occurred to me while at work today. So take one, one of my bullets would still be for Len; mostly because I seem to be the only one still out of the loop. But before I get people mad, I'm not so hot on this. So here's my confusion.

    From my interpretation, we had big sus on Len, gave her time to respond, and she responded with an average defense. The defense was just average and included other points of digging/ solving thrown in there, and then we got to the big SR and Len fight. The point of divergence is everyone seems to interpret Len's tone during that as huge town/ big vibes, but I disagree. At the very least I think it's not AI on either side, I think it's just... well the exact reaction you'd give on either wolf or town. I think I'd be pissed if my genuine, baseline but very sound wolftalk wasn't working, and equally pissed if I was a town being accused of wolf for the SMALLEST thing when I thought my words weren't working. I feel like the enthusiasm can come from both wolf side and town side, as opposed to being exclusively town leaning. I totally understand getting mad when you feel like you're talking to an obstinate, hypocritical wall!!!

    I also took the time to look at Len's entire ISO. It was a lot, but it brings me to a very wild and unsubstantiated theory. I know I dropped a huge bomb with my vote switch, my wagon switch, but I find the remaining people who voted after just as interesting.

    My wacky theory: right around EoD we have the fight and then we get into lightning round. PERHAPS Len notices that Dunn's public opinion has been waffling the whole game. It's not a stretch to say that most of the people who read Dunn as both wolf and town agreed on one common point that he wasn't very elaborate nor was he very polite in many of his posts. Nearly every response was a sharp jab from him. Picking up on that she does her ISO which has a lot of scumreads on a lot of people, but Dunn comes up pretty frequently. Heavy theoretically, but perhaps it's to just kinda put her points at the front of people's minds, possibly. I believe it could be genuine ISO thoughts. Debate goes on and more people are on the Dunn wagon. And after placing my vote already, I walk in and change my vote, theoretically falling for Len's Dunn campaign. Again, at the time I don't realize how wolf of a move that is, but it also creates an opening. Len instead of having to do a hard balance of campaigning for Dunn while making the reasons organic but also keeping sus off of her, she now just has the easiest wolf campaign of her life. With a wolf move like that how could anyone even think of disagreeing with her? It's free and easy to get me out. Is that not a bus of her own? Theoretically wouldn't matter to her. If she knows, she gets either one town out. And if she can get me, then Dunn already has a lot of damnation on his head.

    Again, massive what if theory, and it has a lot of ASTERISKS HERE. I genuinely don't think I have the room to make such a wild and flagrant claim, but it's what my brain has. I have more to add, but I figure for simplicity's sake I'll put it in a second post for people to pick parts easier.
    Okay so wrt Len here, what do you think her goal was at eod? Why do you see her compelled to go to Dunn in the first place as a wolf?
    My best guess given this theory is that Dunn was a sleeper path of least resistance and Len realized it? As Ara put it, because of Dunn's standoffish posts Len ignited a campaign against him and "nobody really vetoed it." I was included, but I feel most people who gave Dunn any reads gave him the benefit of the doubt and saw him as town, but they were kinda bleh about Dunn's tone overall. Len banks on the fact that even if people read Dunn town they just won't care if Dunn gets axed. Seems to be the case that a lot of people were on the fence and as the momentum kept going people just went along. Dunn was also relatively consistent in not showing his cards to anyone, he was short and curt and didn't explain his reasoning. Since that trend kept up Dunn kept making himself an easier and easier target as he was pushed, so once she got the momentum she could just keep going and people didn't fight Len's push on it.

    In other words, it could have been a somewhat blind push based on a few observations that was too good to not take off.
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    Completed Ara's glossary doesn't define this. What is a...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#462)

    is... is this a townslip?
    Ara's glossary doesn't define this. What is a townslip?
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    Completed So early in day 2 Len asked me to clarify this....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammy (#301)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#243)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#140)
    i don't buy that len's soulreading me wolf

    i think she's noticed that the thread's pretty lukewarm on me and thinks she can seed suspicion without necessarily getting her hands dirty

    probably indicates that the people lowest on me (hi claire) are more likely to be town
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#142)
    there's more to my scumread on len than just a dislike of her soul read but a lot of it is vague ~feels~ and i kinda wanna get her back in here and see what's what before i talk about it
    I’m gonna admit I cheated a little and did a late night peak, but I saw later that the two reads you don’t wanna talk about much are me and Len for -reasons- while I can respect the method the day is coming to a close. Now, the read on me I don’t really care about since people seem to like having me around for some reason. Len on the other hand is someone who I’ll need you to shed some light on if you want my opinion on you to change. I’d like to consider myself a not very biased person, so if you gave me the bullet points I’d look at it in a very factual manner. Be warned though, if most of your argument is meta it probably won’t click with me that well.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hammy (#150)
    I suppose I can understand the concern, but I'm new! And I'm warming up as I gather info. For me, this is a lot to read, but I'm starting to form Opinions so I'll talk about other stuff soon.
    I’ll show a little mercy since you’re new in all, but I can assume you’ve played games of this type before. The thing I’m having trouble with here is what does being new have with you only focusing on Ampharos? I get there is a sense of comfort knowing a player but. . .that isn’t really something I’d expect from a-you know what I’ll let you answer maybe I’m just talking gibberish.
    I'm coming to the conclusion that I probably tunnelvisioned hard towards the beginning of my posts. My focus went from not sure how to gather information to I'm being accused (probably wrong word) due to Amy relations, to Dunn's damnation of Len. Those have been my focuses so far and it might be suboptimal play. But I don't fully see either how focusing on stuff relating to me is bad play either? Not sure one way or the other. It makes sense to me to zero in on stuff that's familiar and that I know.
    So early in day 2 Len asked me to clarify this. What I mean by "stuff that's familiar and that I know" would mean anything that is relating directly to me. I know what my thoughts would be. I know my actions. And I know my interpretation of events like when asked about Amy voting. Stuff that would be directly asked of me, I can provide an answer for. An example of something that wouldn't be familiar was when in post #181 I tried to engage Beeboy in a more original thought/ line of questioning.

    For the timeline, I started focusing on lines of questions that directly involved me, familiar, then I moved on to trying to analyze other people's post for insight, unfamiliar.
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    Completed Well, there's a lot of that. If you think it's...

    Well, there's a lot of that. If you think it's all crazy, don't worry, I do, too. So I more than welcome people blasting holes in it. (on a lot of levels I want to be wrong and overanalyzing $%#! so insight is greatly appreciated)

    Other general questions I have though: How do you specifically @ people? Did I do it right in the above post?

    Is it possible to unvote? I wouldn't mind voting now as long as I knew that it wouldn't $%#! me later given how... unfortunately low we are on players....

    If my math is right, we only shoot if we're dead sure about who's wolf, bringing it to 1 wolf, 5 town. Wolf likely kills bringing it to 1 wolf, 4 town by day 3. If we're not sure, we let 2 wolves live, they kill 2 and we're left with 2 wolves, 3 town by day 3. (unless vig gets a game changing shot and if they don't we go 2/2 and lose). Guess all's this to say that if I vote and the optimal play is to not lynch due to uncertainty I can elect to not by the end of it, yes? Thanks for the advice in advance.
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    Completed My second shot is: Amy. And again for mostly...

    My second shot is: Amy. And again for mostly tinfoil, overexamining small things reasons. It's bad for me considering I keep bandwagoning, but that's just what I'm gonna do this game, I guess. This tinfoil theory has a title: In Which Amy is Too Good of a Host.

    Amy's been making this first mafia experience a genuinely good one. Since the outset she's been light with me and played around and it's a good time. Amy knows me very, very well and almost all her reads on me have been deadly spot on. Her knowing basically how I talk and thus defending my very much fake "reads" in my first post, to defending in the stressful heat of the moment my twtbaw switch with 3 minutes left AND the switch to counter Len... it's a huge vote of confidence that I'm town and can definitely be attributed to Amy just Really Knowing a Pal. She had perfect insight into me being in "Go Mode," and even has come to my defense about my words better than I could have, especially on the first day. I think by and large she's a huge reason that I'm even here in day 2. So she knows me well and has a strong read on me. But WHY?

    Here's the tinfoil theory. It's way easier to know for a fact I'm town if she knows everyone who's not mafia. That's the easy guess. That explains a lot of why she's so chill and unwavering in her defense for me despite me setting off stupid bombs. (But at the same time that is very much how she's been playing this game in general.) Easy enough, but I'm going further and putting my tinfoil hat on even more. Say you don't want to only make sure that the newbie good friend has as good of a time as he can, but you want to make it as optimal and engaging as possible. Having others participate to a certain level is out of everyone's control; if people aren't posting and aren't here for the game enough, then that would suck and lessen the experience. But what if you could change that? The most townish way to get rid of afk/ not engaged people is to just suggest it for the day vote. That person would have been Bee, and Bee dying would theoretically increase talking and engagement. But that vote didn't go through at the end of the day. And if you had the power to still get rid of Bee for a more engaging game, might you? My bat$%#! theory is that's what we got out of the night kills. Amy gets rid of an afk Bee for a more engaging game and because she wanted to during the day. If they can talk and collaborate on kills, the further result becomes that wolf 2 kills Claire to also help Amy's defense.

    I meant to stick this somewhere else, too, but her defensive swap to Dunn also benefits her IF she has knowledge that Dunn is not wolf. I can definitely attribute this to it being the literal last minute, and this only works if Amy was watching the thread like a hawk and had the fastest voting hands in the west, and seeing the code at the moment she sees Dunn and Ara vote, but it's still a point of note that the math doesn't add up fully. I don't know what the result of this math brings, but Amy did not stick her neck out for me the big votes go 2 SSR, 3 me, 3 Dunn. Me and Dunn tie. I have no idea what leaving it at 3/3 would have done, but maybe it would have resulted in Not A Kill and Dunn could have lived. We come to the railroad dilemma of Amy's inaction might have killed someone but her action did kill some one. Which for a wolf would have been a win win. But hey, just like Amy excused me for being in "Go Mode" I will just as easily excuse literally anyone else for being in Go Mode, as they had EVEN LESS TIME.

    Anyways, $%#!, that's a lot to unpack, yeah?
    But to clear some air, I'll ask more specific questions to my lunatic ramblings.
    -Amy, what are your general thoughts on Bee being killed during the night phase? Loaded question: DO you think it was an overall benefit for the game since he was largely afk and a little unhelpful?
    -Amy, any reason that some of your harder targets seem to be people with low posts and low meaningful participation? Is it just a coincidence?
    -@ all, could anyone maybe explain in further detail as to why it seems wolfy to just not talk? I'm gathering a lot of it has to do with they get free information and you can't get next to any reads one way or another with no information from them if they don't talk. Is there more to it? Does silence benefit them or put more suspicion on them?

    @superstarsrock I'm actually really curious as to your thoughts on both Claire and Beeboy dying in the night round. You had a Claire vote by the EoD on day 1. Is that shocking to you?
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    Completed And onto my second shot. Which will continue to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#504)
    Who's your other shot there?
    And onto my second shot. Which will continue to make me, probably, look worse! Ready! A little spicier given the position I'm in!
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    Completed That's probably another big bomb, but my main...

    That's probably another big bomb, but my main genuine questions more revolve around everyone's opinion of absolving Len from day 1 after the fight. The rest of it is putting on a huge tinfoil hat.
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    Completed Now as I look at the votes and how they switched...

    Now as I look at the votes and how they switched after my bombshell, it makes some interesting things light up, and I might be totally off base, but I find Ara's votes just as interesting. Ara, you've since that move expressed a huge dislike for it, and I don't disagree! But it is wild who ended up on my bus at the end and where they came from. It was Ara, me, and Dunn on Bee before the swap. Dunn switches to me very naturally because he thinks me wolf and now we're at direct odds. Barring sus he had on anyone, he thinks me a wolf trying to kill him and fights back, totally cool. But then Ara dislikes my play so much that she jumps off of the previous wagon of Bee onto me along with Len. I'm a huge risk and a huge wolf at that point, but aside from massive dislike I'm not fully clear as to why in that moment you jumped. From a very surface level, to me, it looks like you jumped to, potentially, vote with your theoretical other wolf, Len. Which puts me at a potential Ara/ Len w/w.

    So a few questions for Ara:
    In the lightning round, you gave Len a townread but definitely couldn't elaborate more on it in the short time. Could you elaborate now?
    Could you also give your reason for your switch from Bee to me?

    You've been amazingly helpful in guiding this game, keeping the hype, and asking questions, but it's not impossible that that's a bad thing. It could be indicative of strong wolfing. That other post about outright asking who the vig is... doesn't really sit well with me. You've laid out good reasons for why it's good for town to get that info, but it's just as easy to target them during the night phase and be hugely detrimental to town.

    On the real I'm hoping that I'm wrong. I want HYPE!Ara to be town and stick around.
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    Completed Okay, to maybe bring some conversation back to...

    Okay, to maybe bring some conversation back to life here, Amy asked who I'd shoot if I had two bullets. I'll start with the less spicy one, but I also want to preface with: I've read all the posts for day 2, but they don't have much bearing on the following thoughts. Most of these things occurred to me while at work today. So take one, one of my bullets would still be for Len; mostly because I seem to be the only one still out of the loop. But before I get people mad, I'm not so hot on this. So here's my confusion.

    From my interpretation, we had big sus on Len, gave her time to respond, and she responded with an average defense. The defense was just average and included other points of digging/ solving thrown in there, and then we got to the big SR and Len fight. The point of divergence is everyone seems to interpret Len's tone during that as huge town/ big vibes, but I disagree. At the very least I think it's not AI on either side, I think it's just... well the exact reaction you'd give on either wolf or town. I think I'd be pissed if my genuine, baseline but very sound wolftalk wasn't working, and equally pissed if I was a town being accused of wolf for the SMALLEST thing when I thought my words weren't working. I feel like the enthusiasm can come from both wolf side and town side, as opposed to being exclusively town leaning. I totally understand getting mad when you feel like you're talking to an obstinate, hypocritical wall!!!

    I also took the time to look at Len's entire ISO. It was a lot, but it brings me to a very wild and unsubstantiated theory. I know I dropped a huge bomb with my vote switch, my wagon switch, but I find the remaining people who voted after just as interesting.

    My wacky theory: right around EoD we have the fight and then we get into lightning round. PERHAPS Len notices that Dunn's public opinion has been waffling the whole game. It's not a stretch to say that most of the people who read Dunn as both wolf and town agreed on one common point that he wasn't very elaborate nor was he very polite in many of his posts. Nearly every response was a sharp jab from him. Picking up on that she does her ISO which has a lot of scumreads on a lot of people, but Dunn comes up pretty frequently. Heavy theoretically, but perhaps it's to just kinda put her points at the front of people's minds, possibly. I believe it could be genuine ISO thoughts. Debate goes on and more people are on the Dunn wagon. And after placing my vote already, I walk in and change my vote, theoretically falling for Len's Dunn campaign. Again, at the time I don't realize how wolf of a move that is, but it also creates an opening. Len instead of having to do a hard balance of campaigning for Dunn while making the reasons organic but also keeping sus off of her, she now just has the easiest wolf campaign of her life. With a wolf move like that how could anyone even think of disagreeing with her? It's free and easy to get me out. Is that not a bus of her own? Theoretically wouldn't matter to her. If she knows, she gets either one town out. And if she can get me, then Dunn already has a lot of damnation on his head.

    Again, massive what if theory, and it has a lot of ASTERISKS HERE. I genuinely don't think I have the room to make such a wild and flagrant claim, but it's what my brain has. I have more to add, but I figure for simplicity's sake I'll put it in a second post for people to pick parts easier.
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    Completed After a long 24 hours, like, a really long 24...

    After a long 24 hours, like, a really long 24 hours, I am alive and can be active for a bit! Had to nurse off a headache that formed during work.

    I'll give some more thoughts, but may as well get the simple out of the way: not the vig.
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    Completed I'll go into more detail about my thought...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunnstral (#384)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#379)
    i will vote to break the tie

    i am not 100% sure which way i will tiebreak

    oy vey
    It's not majority.

    Either we get 6 votes on somebody or we no eliminate.
    I'll go into more detail about my thought processes and clarifications, but I'm getting sleepy and might be going to bed for the night. But a lot of people are curious about my EoD and my flip and such so I thought I'd try and give whatever insight I could.

    Being late as I was and trying to catch up, the time for me to vote was about 12 minutes before time was up. With 12 minutes and a lot to talk about I felt that I had to put in a vote. I realize now that there was potential to not? And further I hadn't considered that we could have just not voted or what optimal play might have been. I didn't give myself time to ask or anything. So my mindset was to just vote. Any vote. As long as it made sense to me. So I had my list of Len, Dunn, and Bee and figured, I guess if I fire, I fire at the person who's been mostly afk.

    And then I vote Bee and think "that's okay" but then the conversation progresses and we get to the quote. Maybe I didn't understand what Dunn was saying, but my brain read this as super smug. "Y'all can't eliminate me if I was wolf or if I wasn't. You don't have the majority." Which looking back was probably very TWTBAW of Dunn, but I didn't have the mindset to think that way. My brain in this moment is: we have 3-4 minutes left and he's laughing at us saying we can't get him. Since he's already in my top wolf reads, it should be consistent if I switch. I won't tolerate this taunt.

    Now that I don't have the pressure of 3 minutes left in the game, I see how badly I misread this. And I also see how wolfy it is to just switch in order to get a kill. That would be free, wouldn't it? But I felt compelled to vote and participate and get someone by end of day. With a clearer head, I could have just let it pass without a kill. And after all that I couldn't elaborate my full thought process in 2 or so minutes so I just screamed as the day came to an end.

    Seems at the end of the day I just read something wrong, got too excited and miselimmed. And that sucks.

    I'll be free to clarify more after I pass out.
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    Completed Dunnstral

    ##Vote Dunnstral
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    Completed I'm actually kinda back on the Dunn train. Dunn's...

    I'm actually kinda back on the Dunn train. Dunn's behavior has been consistent early game as Amy called out, but then ontop of the short responses it seems to me that Dunn is hopping on targets as they sway. Dunn was also in my top 3 so I can switch
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    Completed beeboy From the info I have this seems like my...

    ##Vote beeboy

    From the info I have this seems like my soundest bet. It's hasty and I'm sorry!
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    Completed My sus is still Beeboy, Dunn and Len as the...

    My sus is still Beeboy, Dunn and Len as the hardest, but apparently I'm super out of the loop so I'll refrain on Len.
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    Completed As a Mori fan I can back this up. Mori is Amy's...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#341)
    oh my god lenore "GUH" is what calliope mori says at the start of every stream

    it was JOKES

    you are the entire circus
    As a Mori fan I can back this up. Mori is Amy's icon and Mori is constantly saying guh as clarificiation.
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    Completed I think I'm caught up, that was a ride. I guess...

    I think I'm caught up, that was a ride. I guess my main question is how a lot of people townread Len. I got lost on how her being angry = her being town. To me it seemed like two brick walls fighting and I couldn't glean anything new out of SR and Len fighting, but most are just like "Okay, that's super cool and town of both of them."
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    Completed Nah, I genuinely think the better experience and...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#246)
    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#151)
    Javelinlover - I feel like I maybe shouldn't have them this high up? But shrug, not going to overthink these tiers!!!!!
    Then why do you? I'm surprised if I'm in that tier with her that you haven't tried to poke me about jav a little since I've expressed interest in wanting them dead. So, why is jav townie for you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammy (#157)
    So putting my thoughts into words has proven difficult, but I continue to see why Amy is being a peacekeeper. She knows the most people and is therefore at a huge advantage, she's one of the prime reasons we're here. With that power in mind, we can place it as a note, but Amy's tone and general play has not been close to wolf behavior. It doesn't make sense to clear all 3 of the main people who had scumreads all in one go instead of any other action/ play. To me that reads more town action than anything even if it halts the conversation.

    Then I've been harping on this whole Amy thing because it was the first thing that affected me this game. For a noob it seems right to address the stuff thrown your way and then learn a bunch of stuff later by feeling it out.

    Dunn is being rather aggressive. Like, holy moly, you'll jump on some very focused and precise things. But I also get a town vibe from you. Seems to me like you're just trying to make sure that there's Absolutely No Bull$%#! in this game and I respect it.

    Jav seems to be turning around, back towards town for me. The complete 180 from being chaotic and memeing into focused game play is a positive in my eyes. Still a wildcard, so I don't have a full opinion.
    Hm, Maybe I’m being too critical on a new player but I have...issues with this post. The last time I wanted to push a ‘newer’ player who was a wolf I had the same feeling and I got told to lay off because they’re new. So, let me ask Hammy. Do you mind if I don’t hold back in regards to you or do you want some space? What’s the best way for me to go about this?

    Really, the only part of you that gave me pause was a single sentence you gave that you felt bad about the Len sus, but I’ve been told ate is my weakness and to ignore it. Who knows, maybe I’m a big softie.

    Nah, I genuinely think the better experience and for me to learn how the hell this works is to tear into me. I'm doing my best to speak and it looks like I'm digging a hole for me! So... knowing how not to do that would be cool. Tear away.
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    Completed I'm coming to the conclusion that I probably...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#243)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#140)
    i don't buy that len's soulreading me wolf

    i think she's noticed that the thread's pretty lukewarm on me and thinks she can seed suspicion without necessarily getting her hands dirty

    probably indicates that the people lowest on me (hi claire) are more likely to be town
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#142)
    there's more to my scumread on len than just a dislike of her soul read but a lot of it is vague ~feels~ and i kinda wanna get her back in here and see what's what before i talk about it
    I’m gonna admit I cheated a little and did a late night peak, but I saw later that the two reads you don’t wanna talk about much are me and Len for -reasons- while I can respect the method the day is coming to a close. Now, the read on me I don’t really care about since people seem to like having me around for some reason. Len on the other hand is someone who I’ll need you to shed some light on if you want my opinion on you to change. I’d like to consider myself a not very biased person, so if you gave me the bullet points I’d look at it in a very factual manner. Be warned though, if most of your argument is meta it probably won’t click with me that well.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hammy (#150)
    I suppose I can understand the concern, but I'm new! And I'm warming up as I gather info. For me, this is a lot to read, but I'm starting to form Opinions so I'll talk about other stuff soon.
    I’ll show a little mercy since you’re new in all, but I can assume you’ve played games of this type before. The thing I’m having trouble with here is what does being new have with you only focusing on Ampharos? I get there is a sense of comfort knowing a player but. . .that isn’t really something I’d expect from a-you know what I’ll let you answer maybe I’m just talking gibberish.
    I'm coming to the conclusion that I probably tunnelvisioned hard towards the beginning of my posts. My focus went from not sure how to gather information to I'm being accused (probably wrong word) due to Amy relations, to Dunn's damnation of Len. Those have been my focuses so far and it might be suboptimal play. But I don't fully see either how focusing on stuff relating to me is bad play either? Not sure one way or the other. It makes sense to me to zero in on stuff that's familiar and that I know.
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    Completed $%#! I'm so slow at reading and following... idk...

    $%#! I'm so slow at reading and following... idk if I'll get caught up before the lightning round hour, but we're gonna try!! Also, I'm using Ara's term glossary, but can someone explain what exactly Len means by waffling. I think I mostly get it, but no 100% concrete idea...
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    Completed Interestingly enough, if I look back on it, the...

    Quote Originally Posted by the-middle-of-the-line (#205)
    i am going to probably better explain myself later but off the bat I like that post from jav that was just made
    Agree with the Hammy Evan complaint about being sheepy and following thread consensus but I have no idea what you're trying to get at with gaslit by the turead

    Do you think SSR and SR just have a playstyle mismatch with me for me being lazy and relying on tone and meta or post vibes?

    Can you explain your hesitation with amy/Sr?
    Interestingly enough, if I look back on it, the one who may be leaving an impression on me to just bandwagon would be the first person to call me out on it: Dunn. He had a very confident, loud, and resolute call out on Len saying beeboy was excited. Such a firm and commanding call of bull$%#! put me in that mindset, then people echoed the sentiment and I went looking for other stuff and found the 4/5 distribution. I'll fully recognize that I was being hasty, but by then about 3ish people sussed Len and Len had not responded so I was led first, and THEN tried to have original thoughts. That's just how my brain parsed the information there.
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    Completed Oh, and one more semi off topic post before I get...

    Oh, and one more semi off topic post before I get to replying, I've seen others say there's an app or a way to view on phone? Do you just access the website or is there something for me to download. That'd be a massive help actually.
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    Completed Still catching up, but letting y'all know I'm...

    Still catching up, but letting y'all know I'm back from my hang out earlier and gearing to respond to stuff.
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    Completed That's totally fine that you don't townread me....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunnstral (#186)
    I do not townread Hammy.

    Len push bothers me because it would be an easy miselim, though I don't have an opinion on Len (who gave her edit powers?)
    That's totally fine that you don't townread me. But you're absolutely right that I might be being led by the nose here. I'll keep it in mind.
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    Completed That's totally fine to find me sus. And you're...

    Quote Originally Posted by the-middle-of-the-line (#185)

    Wrt Evan I actually find it suspicious that his strongest scum read is me. It's a bit of an easy piggyback read to make given thread flow, after SR and Amy expressed suspicion and only Ara
    town read me. I'm a little concerned that Evan's only suspicions are based off of what people should or shouldn't know about him/and/or if they express suspicion about him. @Hammy I am not sure what I'm supposed to know about your play when you've literally never played before, pls explain
    That's totally fine to find me sus. And you're not wrong that my opinions were piggybacking off of points from others that resonated with me. But I was asked "Who's your biggest" and that was the answer. Upon more info or insight I could def change my answer.

    Basically, the whole crux of this issue lies on the dogpiling of my first post. I'm definitely not broken up about it or sad, but at the start of the thread everyone was basically keeping it light and doing memes and stuff as introductions, which is nice! Once I came around to posting, the discussion had already started going, but I felt it appropriate to still keep it light. Felt like I did a decent job at conveying the levity. So I was very taken aback when a handful of people were like "Oh, so you suspect Amy already now? You and Amy are wolfing together?" when it was literally almost the opposite. Apologies if that didn't come through.

    I know the flow of the game is to press everything, but from my perspective it's like "Dang, do I not get to say 'hey' and joke? That's nuts that we're bringing a microscope to something so small." I can see how it is an issue but surprised it got so big.

    The point of this game is to definitely learn about and solve people, and of course people don't have to know me just yet to throw sus and whatnot, but you know me 2nd best here so I thought the joke would be read. Even if we put up defenses as part of the game, that stuff isn't likely at all to come out in my first post. Wouldn't that make sense?

    I'll try to clarify later the best I can, but actually just like Len I'm hanging out with a friend and will be gone for a few hours. (they're right at my door) So see y'all in a bit!
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    Completed Alright, off I go to get some decent sleep at...

    Alright, off I go to get some decent sleep at 7AM.... haha, my sleep schedule is in shambles. WAHOOOO!
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    Completed Last post before I attempt to get some sleep. I...

    Quote Originally Posted by beeboy (#122)
    I kinda think SSR is scum here but like unironically.
    I sorta feel like he is playing this game like it's a social game?

    His posts feel super like agreeable in a way I don't like? Kinda like he is playing this game as a social game rather then trying to solve people it's weird. I am having trouble explaining this so I just won't and will let someone else go "oh I agree" and finish the explanation for me.

    Although he put his community as Maidens of the Kaleidoscope which made me laugh so idk if I wanna push him.
    Last post before I attempt to get some sleep. I understand the warning, the feeling, and the potential danger, but fundamentally disagree so far. SSR seems to be engaging and at least weighing in on his perspective to a fairly adequate degree of solving people. Going so far as to disagree on some points. It seems like a very faulty call out on playing too "social."

    I guess what I'd like clarified is what more do you expect from his posts? How would we play more, or less, socially than someone else?
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    Completed And I guess one last clarification on the Len...

    And I guess one last clarification on the Len point, Dunn also kind of accused me for my first real post in a similar way as Len, but there's a difference in both player's prior knowledge. Amy and Len know me the best out of the players here and many others only know me in passing through PT. Dunn doesn't know me as well I think, so wouldn't know how new/ experienced I was. Len should have known, and I've even played irl werewolves with her, approximately where I lie wrt mafia experience and tone. Dunn likely would not have, thus expecting more of me. The whole thing seems uncharacteristic from that lens when applied to Len.

    Alternatively Dunn tried to jump on me too, but I Do Not believe that. Doesn't seem that way to me.
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    Completed This is all still not solid, but IF Len just gave...

    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#169)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammy (#157)
    So putting my thoughts into words has proven difficult, but I continue to see why Amy is being a peacekeeper. She knows the most people and is therefore at a huge advantage, she's one of the prime reasons we're here. With that power in mind, we can place it as a note, but Amy's tone and general play has not been close to wolf behavior. It doesn't make sense to clear all 3 of the main people who had scumreads all in one go instead of any other action/ play. To me that reads more town action than anything even if it halts the conversation.

    Then I've been harping on this whole Amy thing because it was the first thing that affected me this game. For a noob it seems right to address the stuff thrown your way and then learn a bunch of stuff later by feeling it out.

    Dunn is being rather aggressive. Like, holy moly, you'll jump on some very focused and precise things. But I also get a town vibe from you. Seems to me like you're just trying to make sure that there's Absolutely No Bull$%#! in this game and I respect it.

    Jav seems to be turning around, back towards town for me. The complete 180 from being chaotic and memeing into focused game play is a positive in my eyes. Still a wildcard, so I don't have a full opinion.
    Just in general, where/what do you think the mafia are up to in this game, so far?

    It's perfectly fine if you want to just shrug at the question... but it would be hype if you wanted to take a stab at it, however!!!!!
    This is all still not solid, but IF Len just gave the biggest wolf tip and does turn out to be wolf (which I can still be swayed against, we haven't heard back from her and I honestly feel bad having this much sus heaped on her in one day to come back and read it all) then I would imagine the other mafia would probably be trying to lay low and potentially do damage control. Hypothetically, with the knowledge that your certain other wolf is going down in flames, from a wolf's perspective it would cause me to panic. Unless you've got a godtier pokerface and can just play it off like that.

    Long and short, I'd predict more sticking to the shadows for the mafia.
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    Completed Focused gameplay in that it's not 1 sentence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#159)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammy (#157)
    So putting my thoughts into words has proven difficult, but I continue to see why Amy is being a peacekeeper. She knows the most people and is therefore at a huge advantage, she's one of the prime reasons we're here. With that power in mind, we can place it as a note, but Amy's tone and general play has not been close to wolf behavior. It doesn't make sense to clear all 3 of the main people who had scumreads all in one go instead of any other action/ play. To me that reads more town action than anything even if it halts the conversation.

    Then I've been harping on this whole Amy thing because it was the first thing that affected me this game. For a noob it seems right to address the stuff thrown your way and then learn a bunch of stuff later by feeling it out.

    Dunn is being rather aggressive. Like, holy moly, you'll jump on some very focused and precise things. But I also get a town vibe from you. Seems to me like you're just trying to make sure that there's Absolutely No Bull$%#! in this game and I respect it.

    Jav seems to be turning around, back towards town for me. The complete 180 from being chaotic and memeing into focused game play is a positive in my eyes. Still a wildcard, so I don't have a full opinion.
    can you elaborate a little bit on what you mean when you mention the "focused gameplay" from jav? i ask because i don't think i'd classify any of their play as that lol
    Focused gameplay in that it's not 1 sentence $%#!posting anymore. That the posts are now actively engaging in solving stuff, longer, and no longer stuff like "townreads my accusers :nods:" to the degree they were before. lmao
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    Completed This is rather accurate in that I've played these...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#158)
    And y'know what, a freebie for the road. I actually have a real read on Hammy, though I'm unsure how hasty it is because I DEFINITELY want him to be town here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammy (#70)
    So I'm 8 years late, but I'm here. Still figuring out how forums and stuff works.

    It seems Amy has voted me already based on the fact that I'm new and naturally I think I have to counterattack.
    ... If I can figure out how to. But maybe instead of doing a meme vote and wasting it this early (if I can't change it) I probably shouldn't do that.

    My reads so far is that Ara seems hype. Amy seems mean. Trying to figure out what's going on with jav, Chelsea, and Revenant.
    So, Hammy knows how to play hidden identity games - at least irl. We've played things like Secret Hitler/Resistance/etc quite a bit in the past, and he's pretty good at them. What I mean to establish by mentioning this is that while he may be unfamiliar with the longer written format, he's certainly familiar with the general gameflow of a game of mafia.

    With that said, I don't think that last line is something he writes as a wolf here. I think if Hammy's randed mafia and is trying to figure out his first ever post on a forum, he's going to try really hard to make sure all his ducks are in a row; I think that last sentence is counter to that, because I think it literally says nothing at all. Feel like w!Hammy would either not mention jav/ara/SR at all, or would try to have something to say about them; the empty namedrop, ergo, feels like a genuine villagery sentiment, wherein Hammy's just saying exactly what he's thinking.
    This is rather accurate in that I've played these types of games irl with roles assigned to cards and passed around and I've also played Among Us. The hurdle so far has been the posting and formulating words into ideas that read clearly.

    I'm over here trying to learn what stuff like NAI and PoE stand for. I've picked up and figured out stuff like vig and a few other terms along the way though. Most of my absence has been due to the world's weirdest sleep schedule and fumbling over forum technology. And reading, tbh.
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    Completed Ara in my mind continues to be hard town. No...

    Ara in my mind continues to be hard town. No crazy accusations and solid lines of logic. Following what everyone says and making level headed judgments off of them.

    Claire seems fine. Still trying to get a read.

    Can't pin down beeboy on anything for the life of me.

    I agree with most that Len seems the most wolf. A lot of hard stuff coming out of someone who seems uncertain and just soul reading. Seems like a play to get more information without giving nearly any on top of pitting people against each other with her reads. On top of that, and this is almost all semantics, I find it almost too coincidental that the soul reads split a near even 4/5 of who's clear and who's not on what her initial gut feelings are. There are some of Len's opinions that drift towards neutral, but the strongest ones split evenly down a 4/5, which I don't like.

    Everyone else seems neutral. And I'll be real, I tried to follow Rev, but I've lost it and gone back to neutral on him. I'll try and reread and see if I can't get an opinion.
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    Completed So putting my thoughts into words has proven...

    So putting my thoughts into words has proven difficult, but I continue to see why Amy is being a peacekeeper. She knows the most people and is therefore at a huge advantage, she's one of the prime reasons we're here. With that power in mind, we can place it as a note, but Amy's tone and general play has not been close to wolf behavior. It doesn't make sense to clear all 3 of the main people who had scumreads all in one go instead of any other action/ play. To me that reads more town action than anything even if it halts the conversation.

    Then I've been harping on this whole Amy thing because it was the first thing that affected me this game. For a noob it seems right to address the stuff thrown your way and then learn a bunch of stuff later by feeling it out.

    Dunn is being rather aggressive. Like, holy moly, you'll jump on some very focused and precise things. But I also get a town vibe from you. Seems to me like you're just trying to make sure that there's Absolutely No Bull$%#! in this game and I respect it.

    Jav seems to be turning around, back towards town for me. The complete 180 from being chaotic and memeing into focused game play is a positive in my eyes. Still a wildcard, so I don't have a full opinion.
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    Completed I suppose I can understand the concern, but I'm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunnstral (#139)
    It's called RVS or random voting stage, people vote to generate discussion and build pressure (I'm not a fan of it personally).

    It is concerning that the only thing you have talked about this game is Ampharos' blank vote on yourself.
    I suppose I can understand the concern, but I'm new! And I'm warming up as I gather info. For me, this is a lot to read, but I'm starting to form Opinions so I'll talk about other stuff soon.
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    Completed Famous last words LMAO. Ultimate destruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javelinlover (#97)
    WAIT WE HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF POSTS?????
    Famous last words LMAO. Ultimate destruction.
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    Completed I do think Amy's joke vote was not at all serious...

    Quote Originally Posted by the-middle-of-the-line (#86)

    Hammy any further thoughts on Amy's joke vote on you, now that the thread has moved along? What do you make of jav/Ara/SR interactions? What does Amy being mean... Mean? XD

    I do think Amy's joke vote was not at all serious and doesn't indicate mafia. It seems incredibly in character for Amy to do something like this to ease the tension and just be like BOOM, WELCOME TO THIS.

    In fact, until they play their hand or elaborate further, I'm going to take most "instant" votes on the first page as a joke. I know it def can be a chaotic strat to just fire immediately and then let chaos ensue to actually kill that person, but it doesn't seem legit to fire off of the "hello" section and have that be a serious endgame vote. Feels like a joke to me.


    Amy being mean is me being over dramatic and all pouty that Amy would be so unjustly cruel to accuse me. I'm playing it all up there.
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    Completed I also have my Wooper icon so I feel invincible,...

    I also have my Wooper icon so I feel invincible, honestly. My good vibes are indestructible.
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    Completed So I'm 8 years late, but I'm here. Still figuring...

    So I'm 8 years late, but I'm here. Still figuring out how forums and stuff works.

    It seems Amy has voted me already based on the fact that I'm new and naturally I think I have to counterattack.
    ... If I can figure out how to. But maybe instead of doing a meme vote and wasting it this early (if I can't change it) I probably shouldn't do that.

    My reads so far is that Ara seems hype. Amy seems mean. Trying to figure out what's going on with jav, Chelsea, and Revenant.
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