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    Walrus is meat lump also lump meat?

    is meat lump also lump meat?
  2. what makes u think this lol personally i cant...

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonFox (#110)
    I think the biggest problem with Flake moderation is you don't differentiate between actual flakes and longstanding reliable community members that have a legit problem.
    what makes u think this lol

    personally i cant actually remember a single person who was actually banned for flaking who didnt have an actual issue with it
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    1021

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    1008 gee the mods are really bad at this

    1008

    gee the mods are really bad at this
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    wait i thought kat was pretending to be them not...

    wait i thought kat was pretending to be them not the other way around
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    1001

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    Sticky: wait it’s officially written down??? did...

    wait it’s officially written down???

    Quote Originally Posted by Trustworthy Liberal (#302)
    Start Date: 12/19
    Game Name: How the Grinch Stole Mafia Universe
    Game Size: 17 (Can increse to 21er if intrest)
    Game Speed: 36/12
    Game Type: Role Heavy
    Setup:Closed
    Note: The 25th will not count towards the time and will add 24hours to whatever phase alligns to it.
    did this get canned or smthn
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    Sticky: yo you do know all slots for that date are taken...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuti plz (#306)
    [PREFERRED START DATE]12/19
    [GAME NAME]world cup team mafia
    [GAME SIZE]17 teams of 3
    [GAME SPEED]48/24
    [GAME TYPE (Standard/Large/Light)] team mafia
    [OPEN/CLOSED]open
    yo you do know all slots for that date are taken including light slots
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    can you clip my toenails for me

    can you clip my toenails for me
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    Sticky: ok but skill issue

    ok but

    skill issue
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    991

  12. I think this is true, but I think that the added...

    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#30)
    Is this something you can do on your own and come to your own conclusions without pasting the data to show people?

    Data they wouldn't read anyway?

    And if so, can't you already just make your reads this way and if it works and people are like wow it works, then they can learn your mysterious ways, similar to my guide on being a townie and the methods of solving therein.
    I think this is true, but I think that the added pressure of people knowing what to look for will

    a. make you improve faster
    b. help you know when you've truly fixed everything

    Kind of like how playing in anon games isn't really all that great for making yourself less polarized.
  13. I think an appropriate tl;dr is that I think it's...

    I think an appropriate tl;dr is that I think it's unfair for people to hold the dichotomy of "this isn't going to have that many benefits" and "it should stay banned" as isn't the whole point behind banning it because it's too strong?

    Pretty much, I think that it has some mild benefits and even milder drawbacks; I don't really see any reason it should be banned.

    (And again, it's even $%#!ing voluntary.)
  14. I also want to talk about what pizza said on...

    I also want to talk about what pizza said on correlation/causation and random chance - which I totally agree with.

    I've noticed this firsthand as I had to go through my database and delete a bunch of usernames as they were exclusively used many many times as town and obviously they aren't actually alignment indicative.

    The database is just statistics (on a small tangent here, I also agree with their point that this sort of thing can technically be done by hand and we're not really restricting the practice as so much as restricting the efficient use of the practice which feels kind of iffy in itself but) and obviously it is just showing correlation - one needs to parse through it themselves and be able to recognize when something is just chance and when it actually means something. And, yeah, it does require a lot of data before you can start identifying causes, but it's still useful if you can put in the time to look at it.

    And, anyways, I think the weaker the tool actually is, the weaker the argument for banning it gets.
  15. Ok, now that I’ve gotten those posts out of the...

    Ok, now that I’ve gotten those posts out of the way, I’ve taken the past few days to reflect on this, and I have... thoughts.

    First, I think that I previously overestimated the utility that doing this would provide. I think Apoc presents a somewhat valid point in that you might not necessarily want your town and wolf games to have the same metadata, as wolfing naturally takes a different approach and trying to get your word choice to match up is restrictive - but at the same time I think that their assumption that having near identical stats inherently means you will have the same approach to both alignments is wrong. I think this is just an extension of an argument against meta in general - it’s arguably more restrictive to have to attempt to emulate your town playstyle rather than just which words you use. Words are just a tool, what you do with them is up to you while playstyle is something a lot more inherent to you and allowing players to use meta as we know it seems a lot worse if we go along these lines. You can argue that this is a necessary sacrifice in order to maintain the community’s social aspect (as the only real solution to this is to make all games anon) and that we shouldn’t be allowing more of this because there’s no “necessary sacrifice” involved, but I want to note that whether you want to out this data is completely voluntary (and I’d appreciate if I didn’t have to tell another person to read the OP where I address some of the problems that may arise from this).

    Now, all I’ve done so far is present all the problems I feel like exist in Apoc’s argument, but I do think it has a semblance of truth to it. Specifically, I think it’s made me realize that this isn’t really all that useful and only makes one a better wolf player by somewhat arbitrary standards - but I feel like it does offer something (I think it can be argued that if you accomplish the same things as wolf when your word choice is close enough to town word choice as opposed to when it is not, you are a better wolf player), like the cherry on top of your sundae.

    (All of this being said, I will probably drop this for now as, like I said, I’ve probably overestimated the value this brings, though I believe no solid counter argument has been presented and there’s not a great reason for not allowing this.)
  16. I think this is a pretty awful misrepresentation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rajidae (#19)
    If you're so keen on improving, surely you'll find other ways that don't include the whole site catering to you, no?

    This sounds like a skill issue
    I think this is a pretty awful misrepresentation of what I am saying - it's like saying allowing homosexual marriage shouldn't be allowed since it has the whole country cater to them.

    a. It's voluntary.
    b. Doesn't really have downsides that are significantly different/worse than the ones we have by allowing specchats, spoilers in said specchats, etc.

    Frankly, I think saying that it involves the whole site catering to me is just... wrong, and I believe I clearly laid out the costs and benefits of this in general.
  17. I already had addressed this in the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#27)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#11)
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#7)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#6)
    By allowing it you make it possible to badger people for it. Never happening thankfully
    That would be explicitly against the rules, just like it is now?
    People will be pressured by people suspecting the people who won't reveal whether it is done explicitly or not
    Agreed.

    No and will not play any games where this is offered “voluntarily”.
    I already had addressed this in the OP.
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    Sticky: I kind of forgot this award existed, but I'm also...

    I kind of forgot this award existed, but I'm also gonna nominate @Askthepizzaguy for Most Dedicated.

    I think it's easy to see why - regardless of alignment, pizza will make post after post after post doing things that can't really be counted as fluff.

    In a recent f3, I saw pizza post some of the biggest walls I have ever seen, one after the other - in fact, pizza probably holds all top 10 slots in my "biggest walls" list.

    I think it's a testament to their dedication just how much content they manage to put out and at times it can honestly be kind of overwhelming.

    I'd also like to mention that I've noticed this tendency to post walls isn't limited to just the game, you are almost guaranteed to see a few pregame in the signups thread and even more postgame just spewing their thoughts.

    This is an extremely easy nomination for this category.
  19. #1161

    Thread: Current Staff

    by Twice Shrunk
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    Sticky: skill issue

    skill issue
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    Sticky: I'd also like to nominate Askthepizzaguy for Best...

    I'd also like to nominate @Askthepizzaguy for Best Town Player.

    pizza is legitimately one of the scariest townies I have ever seen, and that's an opinion I formed without even having to wolf against him myself. He has a crazy ability to continually re-evaluate his worldview, honing in on the correct solve very fast (chances are that he has caught the majority of the wolfteam by D2), so even if he misclears you for a while he will quickly rectify that mistake.

    Adding onto that, pizza is loud. He's able to get people to follow to him on his (usually) correct reads and once he locks onto you it kind of just starts to feel impossible to survive.

    He's usually nked early on because of his excellent reads + ability to consolidate townies around him which I think makes him deserving of this award.
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    Sticky: I'd like to nominate help test 3 for Best Town...

    I'd like to nominate help test 3 for Best Town Performance (Team).

    It's hard to peg down who exactly was responsible for the win here because there were just so many accurate players this game and they pretty much just walked over the wolves. One wolf died D2, 2 wolves died D3, and the last conceded after that as they didn't really have a path to victory and were at the bottom of the PoE.

    And while this wasn't a clean sweep, it was pretty damn close and I believe this team deserves the award anyways because they displayed great cohesion in finding each other and great reads by finding the wolves and giving them barely any wiggle room.

    From D2 onwards, it just never really felt close which I think is also demonstrated by the wolves quickly losing motivation for the game when it became pretty clear they were getting $%#!ed.

    Overall a very good performance from a town that really came together and had so many accurate players that it's hard to peg down a MVP because they all played that well.
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    Completed February? I plan to run Floor is Lava in...

    Quote Originally Posted by evakyoo (#3225)
    when is help test 4
    February?

    I plan to run Floor is Lava in December and a (bastard) upick 3 in January, so yeah prolly Feb.
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    Completed i mean its funny and i dont mind in fact it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan the Pomegranate (#3217)
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#3212)
    help test 3
    Question: What are your thoughts on people turning the name of your test game series into an inside meme.
    i mean its funny and i dont mind

    in fact it practically guarantees that all my help test games will fill which is nice
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    Completed help test 3

    help test 3
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    Completed Lastly, I just want to mention that I'm running...

    Lastly, I just want to mention that I'm running the Floor is Lava on 12/19, signups open 12/5 - it'll have mechanics that I think are really cool, very unique, and will significantly influence the way the game is played. I've put a lot of effort into it (in fact, when getting this reviewed by quas, I sent them like 7-8 walls explaining my thoughts behind the setup), so I do hope y'all will join. ty.

    I'd also like to thank kat for existing in Discord when I didn't exist and giving people access to dvc/spoils, despite the fact I kind of just gave them admin powers without consulting them . ily .
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    Completed As for the play, I think town played very well. ...

    As for the play, I think town played very well.

    Lots of people were on point and wolves kind of just got folded, and I lowkey feel like part of this was due to wolfchat being split which I think in turn led to less motivation across the board for wolves and definitely made it easier for town to stomp on them.

    I think that th blundered a bit by fakeclaiming poisoner, but they said that they hoped that the poisoner was not really around and I can see where they were going with that and just got unlucky Memory was the poisoner. I don't think wolves could have done much to change it atp anyways besides just being townier.

    I don't really have many thoughts on the play either, it was overall just a very solid town performance and wolves just lacked the WIM and motivation to really contest anything imo, I don't think they did anything I'd call like a major mistake.

    ggwp
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    Completed Ok, so I'm on a computer, which means y'all get...

    Ok, so I'm on a computer, which means y'all get to see a bunch of words none of you asked for.

    I think that a better title for this would have been "help test 3: bullying twice because modbot pulled an uno reverse card."

    I... kind of just $%#!ed up my understanding of the setup and there were some elements in the setup that were programmed using contrary logic - specifically the backup modifier preventing players from using the joat/inventor mods despite odd/even/cycle modifiers allowing players to use inventor actions on cycles their "real" role wasn't allowed to target on, which led to me having to temporarily manually process some elements and also provide false information to the even section of the wolf team (thus resulting in the compensation). I... should have probably tested the individual parts of the setup before running this as an actual gae but I kind of just assumed nothing would go wrong and that everything was programmed the way I thought it would be. Apologies.

    With that said, perhaps a better title would have been "help test 3: should have been tested before it was tested."

    Or, "help test 3: testing modbot, not the setup."

    (All this being said, I am glad that this ended up resolving an issue with Modbot logic so I'll consider that part as a w.)

    Now, for the setup itself.

    ...I thought it might be cool to split wolfchat but it seems to have been an Extremely Unenjoyable Idea. Whoops?

    I don't really have any other thoughts on the setup tbh, I think it was overall pretty balanced, so I'm proud of that.

    I kind of liked the wolf inventor and think it might be cool to incorporate that into a recluse-style role, but overall people don't really like wolfchat being split anyways.

    idk.

    Oh, and I think that the setup being a meme of sorts definitely had the unintended side of effect as pointed out by bunny of "not reading this lesgo" leading to derps which... yeah. Not much to do there besides telling people to read the setup but, uh, idk.

    Perhaps an apt title would be "help test 3: idk what im testing but it looked funny."
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    Sticky: Completed ggs i was town

    ggs i was town
  29. I think it’s useful, to an extent? Not to...

    I think it’s useful, to an extent?

    Not to mention that banning posting it gives more credibility if anything.
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    Completed ggs I have… thoughts. Will post $%#! later.

    ggs

    I have… thoughts.

    Will post $%#! later.
  31. I mean, I think it's a lot more than that and...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#13)
    Personally, I'm proposing this because I would love for players to have more meta on me. It makes it easier for me to be caught based on how I play the game - which in turn incentivizes me to make my town and wolf metas closer.
    i don’t understand why it’s important for you to erase a meta gap in your word choice when nobody except you cares about your word choice enough to use it to read you

    like, why would you post your data to motivate yourself to close your meta gap when the only reason it would be necessary to close it is if you post the data? if you don’t post the data it doesn’t matter in the first place

    You can make the argument that it's an issue on my end that I'm not motivated to improve without a risk to myself, but I don't think that's a fair argument because I feel like that is a significant part of what drives human behavior in the first place - it simply doesn't feel worth it to put in the effort to analyze my Word Choice stats when there's not going to be a tangible benefit.
    if you think people are currently doing meta analyses of your word choice to read you then that should be enough motivation for you to close your word choice gap so you don’t get read easily

    the reason you don’t feel like it’s worth doing right now is because nobody is doing that, so it’s currently a non-issue that you’re worrying about for no reason


    tl;dr - no
    I mean, I think it's a lot more than that and you're boiling it down to something that Isn't True.

    I would like to get better at being a wolf. This is independent from how well people can currently read me rn. It does not matter if I am the best wolf here (hypothetical), or if no one can catch me - if it is possible get better at being a wolf, then I'm not finished.

    I probably should have articulated this better in my original post (in my defense, I wrote it in one sitting, so I was bound to miss something), lemme add/clarify some things.

    When I said "no motivation without a tangible benefit," that wasn't exactly true and trying to convey something more nuanced than it explicitly says - though I do think there is more motivation with a tangible benefit.

    It's moreso that it's not "worth the effort" (although there might still be motivation) in that trying to improve at something in which you cannot see tangible benefits is just straight up hard. It's because you don't have a benchmark to compare yourself to besides your Word Choice data, and while that can be helpful, it's still raw stats and will miss a lot of the things that would be "covered" in a real game. Like, you can fool the word counter by trying to incorporate a certain word into every post you make (kind of extreme, but it's supposed to make a point), and that will fool Word Choice, but it won't fool a player who might catch onto that. How do you tell if you're incorporating words naturally into your post besides asking yourself, a biased person (which is why, ofc, you should always get other people to review your work before you publish/submit/etc it)?

    So, it's not that my entire motivation comes from the active risk element, but it'll give me more motivation to do something that is more worth investing my time in and I will improve much more and faster with it there.

    And, even if this wasn't so, why not do it?

    I haven't seen a single Actually Good argument and just a bunch of "duh, why would we" expressions that seem more of resistance to change than anything actually tangible.
  32. Did you even read my post? I quite explicitly...

    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#11)
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#7)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#6)
    By allowing it you make it possible to badger people for it. Never happening thankfully
    That would be explicitly against the rules, just like it is now?
    People will be pressured by people suspecting the people who won't reveal whether it is done explicitly or not
    Did you even read my post?

    I quite explicitly brought up this concern and proposed that players not be allowed to share them when they are in a game.
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    Completed Reminder that the postmin is 20. I’ll change...

    Reminder that the postmin is 20.

    I’ll change it to 10 tomorrow.
  34. Just for my sanity, could someone please point...

    Just for my sanity, could someone please point out what I seem to be so obviously missing?

    (or give a serious answer that I haven’t already countered in general that works too)
  35. That would be explicitly against the rules, just...

    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#6)
    By allowing it you make it possible to badger people for it. Never happening thankfully
    That would be explicitly against the rules, just like it is now?
  36. I think the upside is overall decreasing the gap...

    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#2)
    there's just not enough of an upside to allowing this imo

    and making the game even more reliant on meta than it already is is discouraging for new players
    I think the upside is overall decreasing the gap between players’ meta, instead of making the more reliant on meta as only the players who want their metagame to improve and are willing to put in the effort will reveal this info.

    In the short term, maybe, but I think at worst, in the long term, nothing much will change. At best, we end up having more skilled players overall in making their metas closer resulting in less reliance on meta because it will be a less powerful tool.
  37. Allow players to voluntarily post Word Choice data

    After a conversation on Discord, I think this is a good idea.

    I'm not sure how well-known this feature is, given that I discovered it today, so I'll post a link real quick.

    First, I want to discuss the arguments against it, since the warning given seems extremely ominous. The warning itself doesn't really elaborate on why, so I've been left to guess for myself + no one on Discord really made an extremely strong argument worthy of such a warning against it either.

    One argument was that Word Choice data is more objective than simple meta (which, ofc, is the only type of OGI that is allowed) - which could take away the skill element of mafia and instead turns it into a matter of plugging things into Word Choice and seeing what it says about their alignment. I find this to be a pretty bad argument - Word Choice itself doesn't calculate anything about alignments, and the information it provides is Not Very Useful in figuring out alignments the long term as it is very easy to change your statistics and adapt your town and wolf metas to be more alike (at least in terms of "what words should I post more"). I think claiming that it will ruin the game to any considerable extent is just plain wrong. All it does is bring some aspects of meta that are commonly ignored (due to the effort required in compiling this data) "into the light."

    Another argument following that counterpoint is that it'll place more of an importance of solving based on meta. I won't claim it won't, I think it will increase the amount of meta solving done, but I also don't think that's really that much of a bad thing, nor do I think it will change the way people solve to a major extent. All it does is give town another mediocre tool to add to their toolbox.

    The last major argument I saw is that people can use the fact that you can post them to pressure players into posting them when they don't want to and... I don't really buy that. This wouldn't take down the "don't pressure players into giving their Word Count data" rule and that would still be punishable. That being said, there's more nuance to this - you could have scenarios where no one explicitly pressures a player to post it but they feel pressured regardless (say because they are the top wagon) and I agree, that is extremely hard to moderate - so I propose not allowing players to share their data if they are currently playing a game on MU. This is still somewhat hard to moderate, but it's like how moderating cheating can be hard - moderating people who break this are moderating people who are privately explicitly breaking the rules, not people who are taking advantage of a loophole.

    the tl;dr of this whole section being that I don't believe that implementing this change will introduce complications that other aspects of the game/site that we allow don't.
    -----
    Ok, now to talk about why this should be allowed.

    I want to note really quick that this change would make the choice to release this information voluntary - so anyone uncomfortable with the idea of giving players more meta on them doesn't have to do it (in other words, anyone who does this wants people to know this).

    Personally, I'm proposing this because I would love for players to have more meta on me. It makes it easier for me to be caught based on how I play the game - which in turn incentivizes me to make my town and wolf metas closer. You can make the argument that it's an issue on my end that I'm not motivated to improve without a risk to myself, but I don't think that's a fair argument because I feel like that is a significant part of what drives human behavior in the first place - it simply doesn't feel worth it to put in the effort to analyze my Word Choice stats when there's not going to be a tangible benefit.

    I don't really know why else people would want to post their stats besides stuff that essentially boils down to trust-telling, which is banned.

    ...yeah.
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    Completed This has been fixed - players with the...

    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#1433)
    Ok, so for now, the Backup modifier prevents the JOAT from using their action(s), even if the JOAT action was placed as a modifier.

    This may or may not be changed soon, but for now, it will be handled manually.

    This has been fixed - players with the joat/inventor modifier may now use their actions even if they have the backup modifier as well.

    Wolf JOATs, if I have manually processed any of your JOAT actions, you are not allowed to submit those specific ones again (even if Modbot allows it), or I will modkill you.

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    ideal sandwich

    ideal sandwich
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    Sticky: tru i am going to start policying wiggles every...

    tru i am going to start policying wiggles every mash

    for legal reason this joke
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    Sticky: second

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    Completed IMPORTANT Modbot is trolling me - tl;dr the...

    IMPORTANT

    Modbot is trolling me - tl;dr the odd night wolves were not supposed to shoot the invented vig on even nights.

    This happened and… it stacked with the factional poison. The factional poison was made with the information (that I explicitly said) that this was not possible and factored in their decision - and so I am giving that part of the wolfteam a manual poison to use tonight.

    I judge the advantage wolves gain by getting a vig N2 instead of a poison to be about balanced by the information town is receiving now, though it’s still not great.

    Sorry.

    (Also pls don’t angleshoot.)
  43. I think it's more of a "if the game is constantly...

    I think it's more of a "if the game is constantly too much for you, then stop playing or fix it."

    Like, yeah, sub out if it becomes too much for you. And, yeah, that's not an ideal scenario, though it's preferable you sub out if you do have mental health issues bc of the game. But, if it becomes something that happens somewhat often, then just don't join games you can't make a commitment to in their entirety, or the modteam will take away that ability from you.
  44. #140

    Thread: I'm Lumi, AMA!

    by Twice Shrunk
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    You walk into a bar and see 2 Aretes casually...

    You walk into a bar and see 2 Aretes casually talking to each other. One has a Sex on the Beach and one has a simple gin.

    Why is Arete in a bar?

    Why are there 2 Aretes?

    Why are they being friendly?

    What do the drinks reveal?

    What are they talking about?
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    Sticky: also you forgot twice shrunk

    also you forgot twice shrunk
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    Sticky: newcomb??? idt theyre from aops lol

    newcomb???

    idt theyre from aops lol
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    Completed Q: Are poisons public? A: Yes.

    Q: Are poisons public?
    A: Yes.
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    Completed Ok, so for now, the Backup modifier prevents the...

    Ok, so for now, the Backup modifier prevents the JOAT from using their action(s), even if the JOAT action was placed as a modifier.

    This may or may not be changed soon, but for now, it will be handled manually.

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    Sticky: yes yes we exist we are ready uhh yeah that

    yes yes we exist we are ready uhh

    yeah that
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    Completed t w e n t y (not ten)

    t w e n t y

    (not ten)
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