Thanks all! Congrats @Rachet & @Arete
Type: Posts; User: Saint
Thanks all! Congrats @Rachet & @Arete
Great game all.
My battery did die and I did finish my kitchen painting.
Cheers goons @digitaldude / @Hectic
It was good fun you all.
Best wishes with the voting.
Love you Mr. Miyaki @Achromatic LOL.
$%#! my battery is about to die ...
##Vote don_3000
It has to be one of the two... My gut feeling has been on Johanna since day 1. Also I have the same feeling about Don.
I'd be perfectly honest... Its Johanna or Don for me.
Apology for not being active. I am busy painting my kitchen.
I am taking a break around 7:30 SAST.
@Johanna - your relaxed somewhat lazy approach to the game had me sus of you from the start. You admitted being somewhat lazy which I appreciate. It take a strong individual to do that. I do appreciate your efforts the last two days.
@Mr. Turtle , man kuddos to you for holding up so nicely. You have been the fall to guy for just about everyone who has been in the $%#!. You are town, let anyone argue differently.
@digitaldude your careless nature would lead most to scum read you. However as I said before ... Someone this careless would have left plenty of breadcrumbs around. Your only vote on a townie (elimination) makes me believe you have a good take on the game. Which leaves me to think you are town. I have ISO you several times and come up with ---- he is a proper go with the flow, happy go lucky guy.
@don_3000 , you have come up with some crazy $%#! this game.... Scum reading bases on avatars, usernames and locations... You have in my eyes playing a neutral game, but your vote history and the reasons why leaves me to think you are the deep wolf we are looking for.
Let me continue painting ... Please don't do anything harse while I am gone.
Thanks for your explanation Johanna. Any questions from you to me?This is: nonsense. There aren't any other such instances because I have missed most EoDs and have not switched the other two days in which I have voted, although I made it very clear on D1 that I would vote off Gellert if it got too far ahead (which it did).@Johanna , in all honesty I have seen this tactic before. Wolf shifts focus from one player to another ( in your "situation" self-preservation) and gets off the wagon as soon as it starts to gain momentum.
Are there any other instances where Johanna jump off a wagon as soon as it starts gaining momentum?
I made clear I would always vote in Turtle/Ezra, I made my intentions very clear at every point of why I was doing what I was doing. When Don put Ezra in hammer range (and in fact giving Turtle a perfect excuse to hammer as self-pres if Ezra voted for him), I could not tolerate it.
In fact, staying on Ezra was the most dangerous option for me as either alignment, as Turtle would ever self-vote and that would incentivise Ezra to self-pres on me hoping for a tie.
On the other hand I'm thinking what would w!Turtle do here, and honestly their best bet was probably to go first and vote on me precisely to make Ezra also vote me, but he didn't show up for another 30 minutes. Coming out of the blue to hammer was just not an option, but if he waited for Ezra to vote for either himself or myself, then he could choose leisurely to either tie or hold his vote for a hammer.
On the other hand, establishing a tie incentivised them to crossvote, as they were both already leading. Tying me was an option, one that Turtle explicitly was waiting to see if Ezra would do or not, but it required relying on someone they couldn't trust unless they were partnered, in which case they also couldn't show that they were partnered, but in any case, they were not.
I did what I thought was likeliest to get us to the end of the day with one of the two people which I spent all day saying I would chop in, chopped.
@Johanna , in all honesty I have seen this tactic before. Wolf shifts focus from one player to another ( in your "situation" self-preservation) and gets off the wagon as soon as it starts to gain momentum.
Are there any other instances where Johanna jump off a wagon as soon as it starts gaining momentum?
Johanna for me is an opportunist (in-game) who will 100% bus a w/teammate if it comes to self-preservation. She'll do the same to her fellow townies alike.#2714#2841#2824These votes are only for pure self-preservation I get it, but I still do NOT like it. Ultimately Mafia for me is a team game, either you help town win or you assist the goons. Don't randomly nilly dilly throw team-mates under a bus just because you want to last longer in the game.
Arete tried to assist town in the event of his/her death and so did Achro.
BIG FOS: Johanna
#2714#2841#2824These votes are only for pure self-preservation I get it, but I still do NOT like it. Ultimately Mafia for me is a team game, either you help town win or you assist the goons. Don't randomly nilly dilly throw team-mates under a bus just because you want to last longer in the game.
Arete tried to assist town in the event of his/her death and so did Achro.
@Johanna it may feel that I am trying to set you up, but honestly I am not. I am trying to get an understanding on things in order to find one more townie. The game hasn't changed for me all that much seeing that we are in D6. It's still the same as D1 really (for me) find fellow townies and eliminate the goons. So my questioning now is finding my last fellow townie rather than trying to find a pair of scum. Finding one ally seem to easier than finding two goons.
Fair enough. In layman's terms. Why are you sus on Mr. Turtle ?
#62 - This pings me as very artificial - Tossing a vote out just to never follow up on it is just weird.
@digitaldude your sentiments on this post from? // I am asking you as you are not directly ISO'ed here.don_3000
I'm a little overwhelmed by 14 new faces too lol, gonna take a while to distinguish between everyone in my head
Getting votes out isn't a bad idea though, good for early discussion
[v]don_3000[v]I actually like thisAs we arrive at Town Hall I see we have to sit in the main hall, not the cozy surroundings I was hoping for at a dinner for six, their Mayor greets me with his even more amazing mustache than the well-dressed man with the red top-hat and nearly spotless mustache above his pearl-white teeth,, I touch my own attempt of such a beauty and look down in shame. The Mayor goes "We have invited the 15 most important people of town to dine with us tonight", he chuggles as he punches my shoulder and says "ohh yeah, the Fire-chief is here too." A waitress comes over with a bottle of champagne, kindly I pour my beloved spouse a glass and take the bottle to my lips.
"Who may these other 14 be, if I may kindly ask?" The Mayor replies "Well you have a lot of odd names, like yours, but I guess that is the times we are living in. Hectic, an artist/italian plumber. Seems to talk a lot to get other people going, probably a good townfolk from what I hear, but it could be he is just causing a stir to go undetected, still that mustache isn't too shabby is it now? Shawn, well can't say a lot, he is busy with the two toddlers so give it some time. Johanna, almost the name of an angel, or devil, can't really tell you much old chap, but something will appear soon enough I guess, I've heard she likes chasing wolves. digitaldude is apparently shooting blanks at the start of a day, to get others going he claims, I am sensing we can trust him to dine with us. Achromatic, ahh yes, lovely fella' isn't he. Trying to get the others at each other, could be a way to lure the wolves out into the open or to cast shadows over his own face. Gellert, ahh yes, his hideous looks makes him seem like a villain from a movie, however; he seems kind-hearted and as town if one was to say anything. Arete, has a thing with dressing up in outfits with stars, odd, but his choice, he is a keen little story teller, and will prove important in this city's future, yet for whom I do not know. Mr. Turtle, well he is a turtle, could explain his speed... Anyways he has been giving a top-tier in a poster I am not even part off. So that is nice, nothing else for now though. The Penguin is a lovely lad, not like that one from Batman, that one is not nice, he seems to be trying to point out which one of you is truly trustworthy, so I say you can go with him. Saint, well his job truly does make him a Saint, but I haven't talked to him much, could be he is a wolf in sheepes clothing, like that Jimmy Savile, remember him. Awful guy, but people thought the world of him. Ratchet, I need some more time before I can tell you about him, perhaps later tonight as we head to the revue. Ultimate-gamer, first comment was a bit odd considering he has been here for some time, could be a smoke-grenade to avoid people looking. Can make "errors" to seem innocent while only trying to get on peoples good side, only for them to feel a cold blade piercing their skin at night, but who would talk nonsense like that! Am I forgetting anyone? Seems like I've talked for hours. If anyone is forgotten, I must get back to them. And may I just add, your wife looks stunning tonight. I wish there where two of her, hahaha, but don't tell my wife I said that..."
"Well Mayor, thanks for all that, I was actually just asking for names. And to be honest, I am already seeing two of my wife, so how about I take one of them down to the wine cellar with you before we get seated, would love something to drink, this here bottle of champagne seems to be quite empty..."
Considering this is apparently only don's second ever forum game I think these reads are fine, I also agree with whoever said earlier that it would be a bold strat for scum to come out with such an obfuscating gimmick, especially if they're an inexperienced forum player
[UV]don3000[/UV]This is true regarding the fluff thingAww thank you 😊
I... See where you're coming from. I really do. I did a quick ISO of Saint and I gotta say, they've said surprisingly little and then tacked on these first reads here and called it good? They don't feel quite as genuine once you look at them on their own.
However, saying "how does he know Don has posted a lot of fluff if he hasn't read past one sentence." feels like bad faith. Like you don't have to read the whole damn thing to know it's fluff. And "fluff" here could also mean "written in a way that is not easily read by others" Like even when there's content it's still written in a floofie way.
I don't like Saint's posts so far, they feel shallow, but I don't think they're quite as bad as you seem to think.
Something feels off about UG's tone, and I'm yet to determine whether it's a playstyle thing or an alignment thing, maybe he just needs to role-play Chiaki better for my immersion - don_3000 is available for lessons if you need them, UGlol that's where I'm at on this as well
My worry about it is because it'd take away from voting and the juicy analysis of how scum act around each other's wagons or town's wagons, which can be very useful information to glean later on in the game
But if who we nominate as king is a mixture of who we think could be mafia and is competent at deciding an execution, that should still give some information from people's nominations, since mafia will have a decision to make on whether they want to nominate each other in the hopes it doesn't go through or steer clear
Mainly though, it's fun and if the record in completed games for town is 1-5, then why not try something different. Everyone should post a list of their 3 preferred King candidates in order and I can compile them into a voting system
@Achromatic: I don't actually know don_3000 outside of this game, I was just looking for a reactionI love the name read but I'm 99% sure Saint changed his name before he got his role pm@Johanna, and yeah lastly this here. Who is he to decide if I am wasting my time, I am putting him in the spot here, and he goes all defensive about it. Play the game remember, at least he keeps reminding us, so perhaps he needs to play the game, if he is elected and declines, well may the rest of us have mercy on him, he gets to defend himself, but will place himself in a dire situation.
Furthermore, I have thought about the change of name, My name is Earl is ehm... well a username. Saint on the other hand, it is strong, it is positive and it sends out a positive vibe. So it is kind of an easy name to hide behind, because people will when reading it at first have a good feeling about it, so it is a clever choice, but don't let it fool any of us. Choosing such a name is just one big flare to me, of course he can't be scum every time, but there is a 1/5 chance he is.
I could be seeing ghosts on this one, but combined with the other, especially his reaction to me using saint in the meaning of the word, got me wonder how trustworthy he is. So I am going with my gut and I just don't have anything giving me town on him as we progress.
This read is so out there that I wanna say mafia wouldn't come up with something bizarre like thisIt depends on the setup, I prefer town normally and in a mountainous game like this
If the mechanics are funky enough and fun for scum though, I'm all for it
The players I feel comfortable calling town are:
Achro
don_3000
Arete
Players I've had town pings from are:
Johanna
Ultimate_Gamer
Celever
Mr. Turtle
I don't have any confident scumreads and at this moment would be fine with sending Gellert or ShawnHard to say, I lean town on both. Gun to head Gellert
The timing of this vote does have partner equity with Gellert, so yeah, I would lean towards T/T or W/W
As for my scumpool, I have you and Shawn (for inactivity) at this point. For unsures, I have Dangerhaz, Saint, digital. Varying levels of town on everyone else. It's been a frustrating day 1 because there hasn't been anyone I've felt really good about calling scum. For a moment that was Saint, but that was me smoking hopiumI wanna talk about this post
Celever posts 3 suspects in this post here - Hectic, don, and Gellert. I don't like that 2 of those players have just voted for Celever, and the other is Celever's counterwagon. OMGUS is one thing, but those 3 scumreads are literally the 3 perfect ones you'd want to have here as scum, especially since wagons on don and I at the point weren't out of the question
Secondly, his words on Gellert I just don't buy. There is no way the case on Gellert was "air-tight" when most of it boiled down to inactivity/apathy, I think that's presenting the case far too strongly because Celever's number one objective here was to survive over Gellert, so presenting whatever strong reason he could was his number one aim, but the reason here just doesn't seem like something he really believes in. Did anyone else think there was a possibility that Gellert was a cold calculated scum player who was intentionally mediating his tone and activity?This is the important part and the crux of what I think is sus in his Gellert read, Achro
I just think he doesn't believes in this reasoning. It sounds like something that's nuanced enough to come up with, but not something you'd actually see or believe when looking at Gellert's posts this gameI haven't done any meta this game because that's way too much effort, but I think scum!Achro wouldn't let himself get lost in the sauce quite so much EoD with the confidence at which he was gunning for GellertWell with my action 15 seconds prior to this, we probably just started new rumours. But with Ratchet gone, my vote will stay put for now, unless we all feel we should lynch Achro after not finding us a target, I do not recall the post, but he pretty much had a nose for these things, and the people he normally play with would be disappointed with him if he didn't deliver, and he didn't. So there is that.
Although that reminds me; what made you think Gellert's last post was his best, Achro?This is actually a fascinating wall
On my home-site this would be a big towntell because mafia players very rarely prepare something that is invalidated by their own nightkill, it's not something very many feel confident or at least think of fakingReciting Arete's case on Celever as a reason to vote him is a little spent at this point, Celever's come back and posted quite a few more things after that case which should give digitaldude some independent thoughts some way or another
Good question
This is an odd time to ISO Penguin rather than someone Celever should be thinking of voting given it's EoD. Why ISO her over don or I, who Celever both has in his suspects list? @Celever It also feels pockety with the 4 +s for Penguin's kingmaker list feeling like too much, even if Celever's is similarFinished ISOing @The Penguin merry christmas
[hide]Odd relationship between these two posts. Seems not to understand RVS but then participates in it shortly after. Why question the Archo vote if you're familiar with RVS? -
I think this interaction is strong + points. I like the quickfire questioning of Archo's take in order to get him to substantiate it, and the rest of the interaction is casual and calm game style talk. ++
This is absolute solvy mindset ++
Using maths in mafia should be banned -------- (this is a joke). I enjoy when people develop their own thought process within the same post, it shows genuine care being put into it and I think it overall tracks ++Achro, I think we got this though. The problem with lynching the last king is that I think the odds of ending up at 7 with 3 alive will be too easy.
Wait, that doesnt make sense, okay, maths time. With the most basic math we get thiswhich is quite good odds of getting to final 7 with three mafia. I am more onboard with it now.
Consistent, and pretty strong kingmaker list. I think I genuinely mindmeld with this ++++
I think this is solid analysis, I actually like that they just left it at "mixed bag" instead of choosing a side. +
Also a strong analysis. Timing was funny because it's when Archo and Rachet also came to a similar conclusion. Tinfoil says if Gellert (and me, but I know that) is town then this might have been a bit orchestrated in scum chat but I also think it would be a huge misstep so overall leave the good ISO as the good ISO Cel ++
Interesting contradiction between the post they made at the time and their ISO much more recently. Two totally different takes on the same post.[/hide]
I emulated your + and - ISO style, it felt appropriate :PI do see this in my mentions though
It is possible that town does a lengthy nightkill analysis even though it's unnecessary to the extent Saint did it, really all he had to do was quote the most important posts and not every single read Ratchet gave - going so above and beyond means you have to start questioning whether town!Saint actually thinks this is useful info to be dedicating time to, or scum!Saint thinks this looks helpful and will make him look like he's doing useful stuff - I'd wager it's the latter
What really makes it scummy for me however, is that Saint to the point of me voting him had not made any comment whatsoever on the current day's events - nothing on the scandalous riots between you and Achro, and nothing on don and I's exchanges with Celever
That kind of disconnect where Saint has nothing of note to say on what's actually going on in-thread and is instead focusing on objective nightkill analysis is very scum-indicative imo, it's easy to do as scum
As we near Town Hall, basically 15 seconds after seeing the crowd standing on Town square arguing I notice a poster with my picture nearly in the top, I point at it to let the wife know, and say "Would you look at that, I have no idea what it is, but A is in front of me, so it must be something awesome." I notice that some of the others on the poster are the people standing behind me on Town Square, so despite not recalling seeing any of them before, here I am looking at a poster with myself and them on it. Oddly the well-dressed man with the red top-hat is not to be found on the list, until I notice his face in the lower right hand corner with a nice little copyright logo afterwards.
"Uh honey, that well-dressed man with the red top-hat and magnificent mustache must be some sort of artist, I wonder what this means..." I think to myself to go back and ask him, but time is flying and we are already a bit late, due to the fact that the wife had to change into an even tighter dress after being ready or cause I just had to try out the new cider from the farm on the outskirts of town, and that bottle was quite large, but you can not stop in the midst of a bottle, as my father always said. So nonetheless, we were running a bit late, so talking to the well-dressed man with the red top-hat and great mustache had to wait. Exciting things often have to wait when appointments are in the way. "Shall we move on" my lady of luck asks, as I must have wandered of in my mind staring at the poster. "Uhm yes, I have heard a rumour that the Mayor will be trying different bottles from the wine cellar, can't be late for that now can we..."As we arrive at Town Hall I see we have to sit in the main hall, not the cozy surroundings I was hoping for at a dinner for six, their Mayor greets me with his even more amazing mustache than the well-dressed man with the red top-hat and nearly spotless mustache above his pearl-white teeth,, I touch my own attempt of such a beauty and look down in shame. The Mayor goes "We have invited the 15 most important people of town to dine with us tonight", he chuggles as he punches my shoulder and says "ohh yeah, the Fire-chief is here too." A waitress comes over with a bottle of champagne, kindly I pour my beloved spouse a glass and take the bottle to my lips.
"Who may these other 14 be, if I may kindly ask?" The Mayor replies "Well you have a lot of odd names, like yours, but I guess that is the times we are living in. Hectic, an artist/italian plumber. Seems to talk a lot to get other people going, probably a good townfolk from what I hear, but it could be he is just causing a stir to go undetected, still that mustache isn't too shabby is it now? Shawn, well can't say a lot, he is busy with the two toddlers so give it some time. Johanna, almost the name of an angel, or devil, can't really tell you much old chap, but something will appear soon enough I guess, I've heard she likes chasing wolves. digitaldude is apparently shooting blanks at the start of a day, to get others going he claims, I am sensing we can trust him to dine with us. Achromatic, ahh yes, lovely fella' isn't he. Trying to get the others at each other, could be a way to lure the wolves out into the open or to cast shadows over his own face. Gellert, ahh yes, his hideous looks makes him seem like a villain from a movie, however; he seems kind-hearted and as town if one was to say anything. Arete, has a thing with dressing up in outfits with stars, odd, but his choice, he is a keen little story teller, and will prove important in this city's future, yet for whom I do not know. Mr. Turtle, well he is a turtle, could explain his speed... Anyways he has been giving a top-tier in a poster I am not even part off. So that is nice, nothing else for now though. The Penguin is a lovely lad, not like that one from Batman, that one is not nice, he seems to be trying to point out which one of you is truly trustworthy, so I say you can go with him. Saint, well his job truly does make him a Saint, but I haven't talked to him much, could be he is a wolf in sheepes clothing, like that Jimmy Savile, remember him. Awful guy, but people thought the world of him. Ratchet, I need some more time before I can tell you about him, perhaps later tonight as we head to the revue. Ultimate-gamer, first comment was a bit odd considering he has been here for some time, could be a smoke-grenade to avoid people looking. Can make "errors" to seem innocent while only trying to get on peoples good side, only for them to feel a cold blade piercing their skin at night, but who would talk nonsense like that! Am I forgetting anyone? Seems like I've talked for hours. If anyone is forgotten, I must get back to them. And may I just add, your wife looks stunning tonight. I wish there where two of her, hahaha, but don't tell my wife I said that..."
"Well Mayor, thanks for all that, I was actually just asking for names. And to be honest, I am already seeing two of my wife, so how about I take one of them down to the wine cellar with you before we get seated, would love something to drink, this here bottle of champagne seems to be quite empty..."I am not saying he changed his name prior to this game, but in general you do get a better town feel from "Saint" than from "My name is Earl" doesn't matter if it was changed yesterday or yesteryear.What do you yourself consider on that last question? If you have already answered it I have missed it.
Now I wasn't being asked, but I can not see a situation where that would be the case, unless they were so superior and persuasive that they could manipulate people into giving up on the idea after that first day where the scum "accidentally" kicked out a townie as with the night killing we would be two townies down and couldn't afford to waste more time on little tests during the game.
I see no other way it would be beneficial for them to do so, unless we take into account players with no time left to play, and so on. But on a straight playing field level, I can not see a situation where that would be the beneficial for scums to be king on D1. D3 would still be a bit of a risk, but with a way higher scum win-% depending on what had happened on the first two days.I never refused to read your ISO, you will never find me saying that no matter how long you search. How can I ignore things that go against my agenda of town winning? I am one of those who talked the most about the switch to Kingmaker, and I still think it is a great idea. But please ISO me, but do not make a Hectic connection cause ain't no such thing is there anywhere. Which is basically what I can say for each player here. Nothing is connecting the two of us, the one I have the most "connection" with is Saint due to our discussion on the kingmaker subject.Sorry got you mixed up, I never refused to read Gellerts is what I meant.You refused to read Gellert's ISO, not mine. The main person you have a connection with is Gellert, not Saint, and this is common consensus at this stage. With that said, you and Hectic have various interactions that implicate an associationship (to a lesser extent than you and Gellert) and there's no point denying that.
You can connect me with whoever you please, neither of those and I have any connection, no matter what you call it. The Gellert thing all comes as I was short on time, and hadn't properly seen the ISO from Arete on Gellert.
I need not defend what is not true.
Show me all of those interactions with Hectic, any such connection is pure coincidence, but I can take with nothing else to go on, coincidence is all you have to build your case on, but as I just said, I need not defend what is not true.Properly and not seen are two different things. I thought your entry message was off, and here I realized you made it twice, so a red flag got fueled in my opinion, so there is that. I had not read anything into Gellert, and after reading it word for word, I said I could see a bit of reason to doubt in post 13 of 13 at that time. I did not get the same scum feel I already had for you.Works for me.I wanna talk about this post
Celever posts 3 suspects in this post here - Hectic, don, and Gellert. I don't like that 2 of those players have just voted for Celever, and the other is Celever's counterwagon. OMGUS is one thing, but those 3 scumreads are literally the 3 perfect ones you'd want to have here as scum, especially since wagons on don and I at the point weren't out of the question
Secondly, his words on Gellert I just don't buy. There is no way the case on Gellert was "air-tight" when most of it boiled down to inactivity/apathy, I think that's presenting the case far too strongly because Celever's number one objective here was to survive over Gellert, so presenting whatever strong reason he could was his number one aim, but the reason here just doesn't seem like something he really believes in. Did anyone else think there was a possibility that Gellert was a cold calculated scum player who was intentionally mediating his tone and activity?
##Vote CeleverWell with my action 15 seconds prior to this, we probably just started new rumours. But with Ratchet gone, my vote will stay put for now, unless we all feel we should lynch Achro after not finding us a target, I do not recall the post, but he pretty much had a nose for these things, and the people he normally play with would be disappointed with him if he didn't deliver, and he didn't. So there is that.I did not write that post, just to get that clearThis is the important part and the crux of what I think is sus in his Gellert read, Achro
I just think he doesn't believes in this reasoning. It sounds like something that's nuanced enough to come up with, but not something you'd actually see or believe when looking at Gellert's posts this gameWell I thought the chance of any of Ratchet or Achro flipping w was highest with Ratchet. So that was just a surprise. And I have a hard time telling who I expected. A very talkative person with some good analytic skills wouldn't be a bad idea, so that was what they seemingly got. Now Ratchet was just as wrong at the EoD as Achro and all their followers, so how good was he really?
So I must shrug my shoulders to that one, but him or Achro were the ones I mentioned prior to EoD, so in that case I was right. Leaving me with even more doubt to Achros trustability.I've clamied town from D1, so why would I fear posting anything?This is actually a fascinating wall
On my home-site this would be a big towntell because mafia players very rarely prepare something that is invalidated by their own nightkill, it's not something very many feel confident or at least think of fakingSorry for downgrading your intellect. Yet I do not think you posted a good case, not at all. It was fishy as hell if anything.
And maybe P#730 was about Hectic, yet you voted Gellert, and a lot of people jumped on that wagon on very little ground. The whole "hah" was more of a way to get something going in you. Yet I never voted Ratchet, so until we see what Celever is, I might be spot on with my initial thought on him.
Fazzled, or what word you use, is quite an overstatement. I thought it was a wrong call to go w/w on us as I knew it wasn't possible. So didn't face me all that much, if anything, it made me wonder if you could be right about Gellert, but as stated numerous times, you had no case so I didn't just follow.Let me take a moment to be shocked that two of the players with the highest scum equity in the game have immediately voted for me at day start.
OK I'm done, didn't take as long as I thought.
I think this was also so self-evident that it almost shades whoever asked Archo about it lol. Don't remember, just caught up but I'm having another deadbrained day.
I must admit I do not know what CWL means.Originally Posted by Johanna[Something I noticed yesterday was how Hectic jumped from Gellert onto Celever when Gellert gained traction. I thought it was something to keep an eye on, but G flipped town so it was nothing.[/quote
Yet you are back in with calling me scum as I still do not see you as town and just placed my vote where it already was, I didn't change anything compared to closing hour on D1 - and that is cause I still do not see you as town.This post is made with a scum!Hectic in mind. Especially as I still believe Ratchet was taken out due to being on the right track. And on their list of potential suspects is Hectic.
Well this is very much backing up Achros case on a w/w Arete/Hectic situation, so if Hectic does roll w, I see trouble coming Aretes way. Putting Arete as a for sure town early on will let others take that into consideration when the are giving their reads.
OK I'm fully caught up. I thought I would have more to defend but everyone voting me really havee only reiterated Arete's points which I already explained so people can respond to #901. Besides Don who actually primarily voted for me because he didn't think I could read 600 posts in an hour, which is true no one can do that, but has since acknowledged that in my wall post I said where I stopped reading. This was later misinterpreted by digitaldude after Don's recognition, where digital said "it seems like the case is that Cel didn't read the whole thread like he said he did", when I actually said the exact opposite of that. Combine that with Hectic's primary contribution being that merely posting a wall townpinged him so hey maybe I did that as scum and yeah this wagon is bad and probably doesn't have legs.
My thing is, the case against Gellert is rather erudite IMO. His posts are chronically NAI in a way that is impossible to achieve without consistent mediation of tone and thought process. Writing that off as a playstyle thing is unsatisfactory considering an element of the mediation of tone and thought process is a chronic lack of solviness. Inconsistency in thought process, such as being very anti-kingmaker and then trying to utilise the kingmaker plan to sweet Archo up once he had a few votes on him are also rather relevant. And no, that's not just NAI desperation -- voting Archo as his top candidate for kingmaker is in that context absolutely an attempt to stroke Archo's ego, which isn't a town move at all.
But here's the thing... I can't help but feel like Don is a better vote. Like, not by a lot, but by enough for it to be worth a potential shift. Part of why Gellert is a good vote today is to provide info on Don, but voting out Don also provides more info on Hectic. Both Don and Hectic have at multiple points this game freely ignored things that go against their agenda under the guise of apathy. Archo pointed this out with Don particularly, as Don refused to read Gellert's ISO but both read and resultantly voted on mine. Don-Hectic-Gellert scumteam is literally possible, but in my opinion likelihood of scum independently of that goes Don -> Gellert -> Hectic. When the Final Hour TM begins I think it's worth entertaining the idea of a swing onto Don, so long as enough people show up. If not, I think Gellert is also a fine vote.
Anyway, I get the feeling playing with Archo will be frustrating down the line (so long as this bad wagon on me doesn't succeed lmfao) because on that catchup I got townpinged by him like 20 times. Maybe it's because he was defending me, which makes mindmelds a bit of an inevitability. But I was overall impressed by the casebuilding and criticism of Arete's case, everything was very paradigmatically consistent, and he smattered pressure pretty horizontally and vertically at once which is for me generally a towntell.
[vote]Gellert[/vote] is this how you vote on here lol. I'll go back and try to create more points around Gellert, Don, and maybe Hectic until the Final Hour TM. But first I'm gonna make myself a nice lil coffee :]
I wanna talk about this post
Celever posts 3 suspects in this post here - Hectic, don, and Gellert. I don't like that 2 of those players have just voted for Celever, and the other is Celever's counterwagon. OMGUS is one thing, but those 3 scumreads are literally the 3 perfect ones you'd want to have here as scum, especially since wagons on don and I at the point weren't out of the question
Secondly, his words on Gellert I just don't buy. There is no way the case on Gellert was "air-tight" when most of it boiled down to inactivity/apathy, I think that's presenting the case far too strongly because Celever's number one objective here was to survive over Gellert, so presenting whatever strong reason he could was his number one aim, but the reason here just doesn't seem like something he really believes in. Did anyone else think there was a possibility that Gellert was a cold calculated scum player who was intentionally mediating his tone and activity?
I think this is a great flare. He knows Gellert and I aren't W, so he is trying to let others see a three man alliance here that does not excist, cause when Gellert rolled V, that increased my V likeliness and could perhaps shimmer a bit of glitter onto Hectic. Sadly with how things have evolved and Celever has proven more and more like town, this here is not really doing anything good for Hectic.
The Hectic/Arete connections feel entirely reasonable and, dareisay,eruditeairtight.
Despite from the joke from Celever it is just being more and more visual that the lack of contact despite the connection is one off. So I am not 100% sure this is correct, but I am a lot further than I am with anyone else. Also the two I have voted on in D1 have both turned out where more T than I thought they would, yet both have received votes from Hectic, seemingly to keep these two players (one of these was a suspect of Ratchets) in the pot so Hectic might have a chance to survive and go into nighttime alive.
[V]Hectic[/]
Relevant things I noticed:
- The way Hectic treats Hectic, and talks about Hectic, is ... I don't really know how to describe it, it's like someone talking to a preschooler? He hasn't talked to anyone else like that so far in all the posts I've read. But when I try and feel out what he was doing, it feels more like he was pocketing Don than like he was just engaging with him as a partner (and similarly with his townread on Don) -- like he saw that Don was a newer player and said "oh, I can pocket him." I don't really know how to explain why this feels different than just "being nice to a partner" but it does.
- The way Hectic treated the implication that he was w/w with Don is kind of -- over-the-top-ly self-aware about it, like he's trying to draw attention to it? Mainly looking at P#1163, "This is undoubtedly gonna remove any suspicions that don and I are working together." after following his vote -- like, would Hectic really say that about a partner?
- From the other side, Don seemed aware that Hectic was being associated with him, without seeming nervous about it at all. He doesn't seem afraid of the risk of looking like they're partners, and I think most players at his experience level would struggle to fake that.
- I only really have two concerns here. The first one is how abruptly Don settles on preflipping Hectic as wolf in P#1653 kind of feels how it could be TMI. The second is him springboarding off of Achro's suspicion of us as w/w, although kind of a lot of people have done that and they can't all be wolves. Still, it rings a little weird to me how he specifically brings up 'Hectic townread Arete' as his big piece of evidence for that, while quoting a post in which Hectic put me and Don in the exact same tier -- like surely if he's town he knows that Hectic townreading someone doesn't inherently make that person a wolf, lol.
Still, overall, I think Don is probably just spewed clear here (despite my concerns). The way Hectic treated him just feels a little slimy, like he was trying to cozy up to him and tie them together, not like the ties are actually real. I think I'm explaining this badly so let me know if this doesn't make sense and I can try and be more specific.
Johanna
I did not, not upon re-reading, either.
I'm heading to sleep now but things have been pretty slow so I wanted to drop a few questions for people to answer
feel free to answer as many or as few as you want
my answers are below, in a spoiler, ideally try not to look at what I wrote until you've written your own answers so that mine don't affect yours
- What do you think is your Most Controversial Take right now?
- What is something about the game that currently confuses you/that you don't understand?
- If you're wrong on something right now, what do you think you're most likely to be wrong about?
- I'm currently leaning town on Achro (I'm probably a little bit pocketed by the wallpost but I do think he had some villagery thoughts in there)
- I don't really get what exactly was going on with Johanna mixing things up and thinking Saint was being pockety of himself (I mean I assume that she didn't realize that he was the person he was talking about when saying the things she thought was pockety I'm just not sure how she made that mistake, or whether it's at all AI)
- I was feeling like Saint's progression didn't make sense but I think there's a ~reasonable chance of them being a flailing villager
-My most controversial take is that though D1 is perhaps the most important day, it is also a fruitless day in and of itself and that whoever we pick for the chop, by king or by vote, will almost certainly be a townie.
-I think it's early to be actually confused by the gamestate, and that mostly nobody knows each other and we are getting to do that now (incidentally, I think that is why Mafia tends to stomp in champs, most players are new to each other and thus cannot rely on prior knowledge of each other).
-I cannot be wrong if I am not certain about anything, which I am not, so... meh?
Achro, I think we got this though. The problem with lynching the last king is that I think the odds of ending up at 7 with 3 alive will be too easy.
Wait, that doesnt make sense, okay, maths time. With the most basic math we get this
Now that I found this in my multiquote, can someone explain this math to me, please? As I've mentioned twice, I haven't the slightest idea how to read that.
I don't have any objection with this, to be fair. From the perspective of Town Achro, I can see this being the thought process you follow. However, I still feel like the vote on you comes across pretty poorly. You call it indignation, but it felt more like a safe leaning into the vote for me, because none of what they discussed indicates that they actually believe you could be scum setting them up here. I'm also a little concerned, because I find this passage of play between you two to be fairly easy to reconcile as distancing. Like if I'm to lay out the possible scenarios over this in order to likelihood, I'd say it's something like w/w >= t/t > w/t > t/w.
Had to delete the original Achro quote qithin because it was massive. By and large I agree with this assessment. Although I generally like the way Achro has been posting and been around the thread (which in and of itself doesn't mean much), the whole Saint-Achro interaction there pinged me.
Saint's vehement opposition to the Kingmaker idea seems genuine and kinda diffuses this? We'll see how it goes from here on out.
Penguin did the math formula in public if you wish to double check it.
I thought you enjoyed hunting wolves. I feel as if my stated case of town's record in these qualifiers along with penguin's math is overwhelmingly compelling.
Kindly re-read the bit where I plain stated that I do not understand that math.
I will follow along with the Kingmaker if everyone's on board, for sure, but as previously mentioned, I will decline the position of King if it is offered to me.
In fact, my list will likely be informed by tactical voting since it seems like I am a prime candidate and would rather avoid that.Do you have any leaning opinions around the idea? Not whether it's good/bad, but perhaps the motivations around pushing it/being against it? Or anything really in general that this discussion has given you.
I think the Kingmaker idea is dangerous in that, as someone else pointed out, reduces the number of mistakes we can collectively afford to make. I can also see the merit of having the interactions around the king vote to analyse, but I am unconvinced that it really adds a layer of complexity rather than simply changing one game where we have 5 days to a game where we only get 3.
I don't doubt that a villager could make that proposition and, in fact, indubitably several townspeople eagerly support it. I cannot tell at the moment whether support or opposition is at all alignment-indicative. I would point out, however, that going the Kingmaker route does not remove the threadpull that any other player might have. Yes, the decision lies with someone else, but there are 48 hours for everyone to discuss and tear and gnaw at everyone and everything else and for a dominant player to exert their influence.
Yeah, maybe, if we use the logic applied to Johanna's earlier post
Hey, what does this bit refer to? Genuinely, what logic, what post?
A flash of an idea just occurred to me. The Danganronpa avatar inspired me and it feels like a fun way to play a mountainous game of mafia. I want to up the stakes a little bit. These games only come around once a year, so how about we play something a bit more interesting instead?
Let's play Kingmaker.
This only works, of course, if everyone plays along with this idea but games without power are harsh for many people so why not liven the game up, really get the blood pumping, yeah?
My suggestion is this. We all nominate someone to be King. The person with the most votes then gets to decide who we lynch today. We agree to consider their judgment as law. However, two special conditions to this game I think make it interesting.
First, if the person we lynch is town from the king's declaration, we will lynch them tomorrow.
But also, the person who we select as king may decline the offer, but if they do so they may never become king on any day going forward.
Kind of a interesting idea, no? So many weaving ideas, clashes between town mindsets and scum mindsets... it'd be memorable at least.
Cute idea, but I do not like it at all. I don't like the idea that one person decides who we eliminate during the day. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. I've never played that way so I can't quite put my finger on how, but I can see that going very very badly.
That ruins the risk for a crafty scum though, and really is a lot less thrilling all around. Do you disagree that the putrid 16.66% win rate town has so far in this year's qualifiers should be avoided at all costs?
Not @ me obviously, but I do agree, but I don't think this is the way to do it. Though the more I think about it the more I'm warming up to the idea... You're right in that kingmaker is a much harsher role for scum than town.
I'm with Penguin. I pick Johanna.
----
Oh we're doing ranked votes. Hm. I don't really have three scum reads yet.
Johanna
Achron
Don maybe???
If we went top 3, I haven't really thought of a third:
1 - Achro
2 - Johanna
3 - ... I find myself torn between Penguin and Turtle. Might be the animal motif. I guess Turtle, just to put their name out there.
As an aside, can I assume we've nominated Johanna for broadly the same reasons here?
My same top nominations! I'm liking Ratchet more and more honestly.
as an aside, with how Achron thinks, I feel scum Achron COULD come up with this idea, but it feels dangerous. scum Achron wouldn't HAVE to propose kingmaker to win, scum has the advantage in mountainous anyway.
Incidentally, I will decline to be king if offered
Just the discussion alone is producing interesting results. I'm 100% onboard now...
Yeah this has me convinced if we were dong things normally I'd be voting right now.
I do think there is a world where townies who do not understand the merit of the game can not want kingmaker, but to decline when you are already being scum-read by a good chunk of the town is very very very telling.
This is a very funny progression within a single post from "No, Kingmaker is a bad idea" to immediately putting forth three candidates (although I read UG as putting forth a list of suspects instead) to "Actually, Kingmaker is a good idea".
Relevant things I noticed:
- Hectic seems really eager to townread Johanna for thin reasons -- or, not 'thin' per se, because I do agree that her talking about considering leaving something out of her posts/being afraid that it looked wolfy is town-AI, but it's easy to make it look wolfy and he didn't, he used it as a reason to townread her (P#161). I think I'm explaining this badly.
- Johanna kind of equivocated on whether Saint's case of Hectic was compelling, or compelling-but-not-Quite-enough-for-a-vote (P#1427, P#1486), and more generally shaded Hectic without ever committing to a vote.
- In Johanna's favor, I did notice that in the early game, Hectic specifically signal-boosted my read that Johanna and Achro (who I think is strongly town) weren't w/w, as well as specifically pushing that Johanna and Ratchet weren't w/w. In my experience wolves don't really want to set up not-w/w associations between a villager and a wolf if they can help it.
There's nothing decisive here but not much here I think is particularly promising, and a couple things I don't particularly like. I don't super want to touch Johanna, I want to respect Achro here, but these interactions aren't great regardless.
Mr. Turtle
Alright, enough formalities and japes, let's get down to business...
Here's my avatar reads sorted in a helpful tier list. Some notes:
Saint - Feel they're trying too hard to look towny with the halo + the smile has a demonic vibe
Mr. Turtle - Incapable of doing wrong
Achromatic - You'd think Tywin would be lower, but I think there's opportunity for redemption from him, he always seemed like a big softie at heartReciting Arete's case on Celever as a reason to vote him is a little spent at this point, Celever's come back and posted quite a few more things after that case which should give digitaldude some independent thoughts some way or another
Digital, what do you think of Celever's defence of themselves vs Gellert's defence of themselves?
Good question
Finished ISOing @The Penguin merry christmas
[hide]
What do you hope to accomplish by voting me?
I start off with a random vote day 1 every game I play.
Why just Achromatic?
All right, kinda wanna vote so ##Vote Hectic
Odd relationship between these two posts. Seems not to understand RVS but then participates in it shortly after. Why question the Archo vote if you're familiar with RVS? -
After a quick ISO, nothing major to back this up as far as I could see. The ones that could be argued are P#85 and P#75 (I dont count P#68 since it is a bit to mechanics based for it to get anywhere imo).
Do you find you catch many scum by answering your own questions? But the progression from how gellert's initial post to 85 is indeed correct.
Well, a bit tbh. The real question here is if I should have posted it myself, but atm feels fine to do that.
I think this interaction is strong + points. I like the quickfire questioning of Archo's take in order to get him to substantiate it, and the rest of the interaction is casual and calm game style talk. ++
Good morning, I think I am kinda caught up now.
Danger has been feeling good. The way they caught up and posted in post such as P#272 and P#285 feel great since the time between them is ~1 hour and there are small questions in between.
I am however having a hard time trying to figure out what I truly think about Achro. Their post seem to be pro town, but I just get the feeling that they can just turn back on it but I dont know why.
When I left I had a good feeling of Digital. He had been searching and prodding in a way that I associate with town. Since then they havent really posted, so it is left there.
This is absolute solvy mindset ++
Achro, I think we got this though. The problem with lynching the last king is that I think the odds of ending up at 7 with 3 alive will be too easy.
Wait, that doesnt make sense, okay, maths time. With the most basic math we get this
Using maths in mafia should be banned -------- (this is a joke). I enjoy when people develop their own thought process within the same post, it shows genuine care being put into it and I think it overall tracks ++
I would probably pick Johanna.
1. Johanna
2. Gellert
3. Hectic
Would be mine
Consistent, and pretty strong kingmaker list. I think I genuinely mindmeld with this ++++
Okay, I said that I am gonna spend around an hour doing ISOs (-_-) (This is like the worst part for me, goddamn life getting in the way of focusing on mafia).
Hectic
P#24 feels like getting out of the game to appear to solve people in a way that appears helpful. In it self, it doesnt say how they really came to the conclusion and starting with a read is "pro-town" if you get what I am saying. -
Their response (P#61) to my vote does feel a bit more townie though, since there isnt much to really go against. +
I $%#!ing hope that P#80 was some kinda ploy to get something out of it. I havent seen anything relating back to why and how this was used. In the case nothing is ever related back, it is not townie.
P#93 shows a true intention of appearing in the thread, rather than solving. --
P#175 is similar to P#80, not sure why you would even do something more since it is only ~90 posts later. This thing of just doing random lists might just be NAI.
The way he stands by his read of don in P#190 feels good. +
In P#495 they seem to care a lot about the game state regarding Achro, in my experience that is not a good sign. -
The saint reads show some deeper thought in way that is cohearent and makes sense. +
P#725 has a good case on Turtle imo, dont see exactly what the vote from Gellert comes from, but hey, thats a okay. +
After this there isnt much for me, so the call backs to P#80 and P#175 never really happen, so that is like -
All in all he gets 4 pluses and 5 minuses so like a mixed bag.
Imma get some food and then return to ISO some others.
I think this is solid analysis, I actually like that they just left it at "mixed bag" instead of choosing a side. +
Gellert
P#68 as I think I have said before, this just feels mechanical and NAI. It appears to be in the conversation but says nothing about anyone. --
P#75 finding something AtE in the beginning feels bad tbh. -
P#85 seems non commital. -
P#585, Does Achro and Geller know eachother from before, otherwise this read feels just odd. The last part though feels wifom'ie. -
The tinfoil hat in the way that is shown in P#605 feels more like a mafia perspective rather than a town one. --
Overall, not a good look for my boy Gellert ##Vote Gellert
Also a strong analysis. Timing was funny because it's when Archo and Rachet also came to a similar conclusion. Tinfoil says if Gellert (and me, but I know that) is town then this might have been a bit orchestrated in scum chat but I also think it would be a huge misstep so overall leave the good ISO as the good ISO Cel ++
Ultimate-Gamer
I quite like the early posts such as P#83 and P#104. The willingness to read into stuff and affirm others reads are nice. +
Have the same opinion on hectic as mee in P#100. ++
The micro stand against achro in P#184 is just show that they are not blindly following either.
So far, I have really like what UG has come with, being one of the stronger town I have in my egg basket.
Aight kinda just skimmed through the rest cuz I am tired.
I also remember like quickly reading something from Arete where they asked to for us to mention atleast one town read or something in the case we die in the night.
So, for me it is hard to pick just one, it is between Arete themselves, UG and Achro, prolly in that order but a bit unsure.
Im gonna try to come back for EOD, and be there for an hour but there might be some complications.
But if anyone ever has a question for me, just actually use @The Penguin and I will hop on via the notification and answer. GLGL
So just by reading through while post where happening, something felt off about Ultimate-gamer, so I did a quick check what they have said.
P#83 seems easily fakeable, especially the first part.
Other than that nothing much pings me.
If I was getting serious about voting, then this is not even enough for a vote.
I will not vote though, ehhh
Interesting contradiction between the post they made at the time and their ISO much more recently. Two totally different takes on the same post.[/hide]
I emulated your + and - ISO style, it felt appropriate :P
This is an odd time to ISO Penguin rather than someone Celever should be thinking of voting given it's EoD. Why ISO her over don or I, who Celever both has in his suspects list? @Celever It also feels pockety with the 4 +s for Penguin's kingmaker list feeling like too much, even if Celever's is similar
Relevant things I noticed:
- Some of Hectic's early posts about Turtle feel like they're super overexaggerated, like where he's talking about how Turtle's avatar is the greatest thing in existence, in a way that I think is >rand not w/w (although this is a very weak reason).
- Turtle was Very Wrong about Hectic. I don't ... actually think that's wolf-indicative? But it's something I noticed, and something I would like an explanation on, if possible.
So yeah, there's not that much here to go on. Not really surprising given that Turtle has comparatively few posts, but I'm not feeling strongly about them.
(this does make me feel a little worse about Dangerhaz, like Hectic legitimately has twice as many posts about and interactions with the 40posting turtle than with Danger. I realize that this is practically the same argument Achro is using against me but I think that when it applies to Hectic having literally four posts about someone and never making a read, with that person being an active poster, that's genuinely concerning)
He said if either Hectic or Shawn flipped town. Hectic flipped scum ... I am really torn between you and don atm. I get what you mean irt the voting btw.I mean you're again ignoring that according to Achro my only possible partner was Ezra, and Ezra flipped town. I have also never voted for you or digital, and I only voted for Turtle yesterday.
You think you have something, but you don't.
Can you see why I have Mr. Turtle as town?
Fair point in including Johanna/Digital, will include it. Don't take it personally @don_3000 . At present, Mr. Turtle has to be cleared in my opinion on the basis of his relentless solving and him feeling like he is isolated. That reads pure town to me. My backing him will also give him the freedom to play his game more naturally without him having to constantly having to defend himself. ---- so personally I trust Mr. Turtle more than any of you, unless I feel I can clear one more as town.Please do include Johanna/Digital as there is not two scum in either of those combinations mentioned above. Why has Johanna targeted Digital since D3 but never voted for him nor gone after him, you do not think that is odd?
She has made it clear she will not be around EoD, this should also mean we will get her vote early. In my World there is hardly any Worlds left without w!Johanna, so her vote will be an interesting one to see. I kind of get the feeling she will try and vote me off, but that will also pretty much destroy any Don/Johanna alliance, right?! So Saint, see it through, you are misreading me if you see me as wolf at this stage, and frankly, I'd rather you did that 3 days ago where I could have left without the consequenses that a lynch of me today will result in.
Let's both do some digging in possible Don/Johanna and Don/digitaldude pairings and compare.
Definitely likely. I've been on her since Day 1 and never received the backup needed to push her harder.
don_3000 has to be my top scum read at the moment. His voting D4 / D5 and him creating weird combinations is just making me more and more sus of him. What's your take on him?
@Johanna Please give your views on digitaldude and don_3000 now seeing you might not be around.
If you are town: Do not vote Mr. Turtle or Saint. If you do, you will cost us the game!
I have to say @Mr. Turtle your efforts over the last two days has proven that you are solely townie. No person that is paired would put in this amount of effort should they be scum.
Mr. Turtle you are my new friend! We are townies!
We'll I tell you all what:
Here are highly unlikely partners:
Saint / Don
Saint / Johanna
Saint / Turtle --- No way
Saint / digitaldude --- No way
So please stop trying to implicate me into any partnerships and focus on other partnerships --- because you all know I am town.
Do you all actually think hunting for scum pairs are easier than actually finding a single wolf? The Goons would have done everything in the book to avoid association in regards to pairings. Personally I'd rather focus on finding a single goon today and go LYLO tomorrow than a mislynch and we loose.
Suppose everyone vote when the are comfortable voting.
@digitaldude
Your take on don_3000 please.
I am sure if we all question and answer one another rationally and with respect we all will get the answers we need. Us going all out attacking isn't going to make our decisions or reads any easier.
It was Dangerhaz ---- @don_3000 what does us both being from South Africa have to do with today? Are you acting up again? Geese ... my Avatar ... my Username and now my Nationality ...
The Bold part --- You make it sound like you are unsure of your alliance. You want to convince two people about the vote ... they have to be town ... as well as me ... A townie would have rather written "I need to find two fellow townies...' or something alike.
Noted and thanks Mr. Turtle , irt Ezra's vote - The consensus was that he was scum. Me allowing him to defend himself was my way of reserving to unvote him based on his defense.Hi, a question. When you asked Penguin to defend themselves, they didn't either, and they flipped town. Did you not expect something similar when Ezra didn't defend themselves? Or was Penguin more of a one-time-thing in your opinion.
Okay, so my counter to your points are:
- I have no reason not to bus Hectic as wolf. I even voiced the fact that I wanted to vote Hectic, but due to the early hammer this wasn't possible.
- I've explained this just earlier, but NKA on Achromatic isn't super useful in LyLo, because it's subject to WIFOM (did Wolves frame me, or did w!Turtle kill Achro and say that e.g.). I think it's much more important to use our own reads in LyLo. It's justified to use NKA to some extent, but when people start hiding behind dead player's opinions instead of creating their own, it starts getting unhealthy for the game. Not that any of us have gone that far, it's just something to keep in mind. Your own read should be stronger than the NKA, the NKA should max. be a supporting piece of evidence.
- Self-preservation isn't scummy. Not self-preserving as town or as scum is often considered game-throwing and it's really just anti-town. I know that I am 100% Town. I didn't believe Penguin to be Town. If I don't self-preserve and vote Penguin, then I am, from my point of view, letting a confirmed town (me) die as opposed to someone I was scum-reading. That's really anti-town. If Penguin had been checked Town by an investigative role, I may have reconsidered, because in that case we are both confirmed Town, from my point of view, and I would have considered who was more important to keep alive. But that wasn't the case. That wasn't the case neither D4 nor D5. There was no self-preservation D3, because I literally had 1 vote, so I'm not sure where that is coming from. But yeah, I think self-preservation is justified when the alternative is getting yourself lynched.
Note how Johanna also self-preserved D5 24+ hours before EoD, while she only had two votes on her? We both self-preserved and I doubt that we're both the same alignment. Regardless how you choose to see it, Town has self-preserved this game.
Your thoughts on don_3000 please.
@don_3000We can agree that it's very likely... I voted first ..more of a pressure vote to get Ezra to come and play. Stepped out as my mobile battery was low ... Came back to find him being on three votes ... Asked him to defend himself (had unvote saved on my phone) , but he seemed to give up ... Similar to Hectic before self voting ... digitaldude in his defense had the $%#!ty job of placing a deciding vote ..
I'll check yours and Turtle's reasons for voting Ezra in the morning SAST.
For now: FOS
Mr. Turtle
- No vote on Hectic
- NKA on Achromatic should be voided (reads)
- Clear self preservation Day 3/4/5
- to be updated
Off to bed. Nighty night!
Rather than us giving you an angle, why don't you say what makes you town.
Paranoia here Turtle from my side.
I'd rather you have me telling us why you are town based on your actions and decisions in the game. I am sure you understand.
@Johanna --- same ^ please.
True, mafia could have tried to frame you. However w/Turtle can also use it as a defense, agreed?
LOL, would you have said that if Achromatic last scum hunting was on someone else?
Sorry DD, that took forever on mobile.
Eliminations
digitaldude: Hectic
Ezradekezra
don_3000: Hectic Arete Ezradekezra
Johanna:Gellert Arete
Mr. Turtle: Gellert The PenguinEzradekezra
Saint: Hectic The PenguinEzradekezra
Going on eliminations both Johanna and Turtle were the only ones remaining now who didn't vote Hectic.
Mr. Turtle eliminated 3 townies while don_3000, Johanna and myself eliminated two townies each and digitaldude only one.
He would have gone for Turtle based on he's last interactions.
Statistically you are wrong: If you are town the possibilities are:
Johanna/Don
Johanna/Turtle
Johanna/Saint
Don/Turtle
Don/Saint
Turtle/Saint
I am town so if DD is town the following pairs are possible:
Johanna/Don
Johanna/Turtle
Don/Turtle
But you being town is to be seen.
Please don't place your vote on a feeling DD.
Instead of going all haywire on who the possible goons are I am going on what I do know.
- I am a townie
- Hectic is my goon lynched with help of Achro.
- I had two mislynches: One on Penguin and one on Ezra. --- tbh I gave both ample leeway in coming up with a defense, but neither did.
- No jumping wagons from my side.
- Asked the mod to sub inactive Shawn (would have been a brain fart of a moment if I was scum seeing he was about to be voted anyway)
The question that's stuck in my mind ATM is why bring Achro along (no night kill) just to kill him now?
Will be doing some analysis tomorrow during the day.
So last 5 - well played all!
Please be 100% sure before casting your vote (votes are locked)
My Mr Miyagi
All due credit to Achro for a great entertaining game, you will be missed today.
Electricity restored. What did I miss?
I'll start ...
##Vote Ezradekezra
Please don't wagon the poor guy - at least until he appears and gives his input.
Sitting here in the dark as a substation blew in my area. Mobile battery low and trying to preserve it for my alarm in the morning.
I'll try coming back at 8 pm SAST.
@Mr. Turtle and @Ezradekezra
Take Johanna out of the mix while she is busy catching up on a game she admittingly was absent minded in.
The two of you are PoE at the moment. We cannot mention the sub, so we can only judge on Shawn's play, the limited bit we've got and the bits of Ezradekezra who more than likely is still trying to find his feet.
Kindly share your thoughts on one anther. Mr. Turtle on Ezradekezra and Ezradekezra on Mr. Turtle
Now you are putting in some effort Johanna. However I am reserving the right to change it back again.I am also going back to the interaction charts because I find interesting just how massively different they are.
This is Achro's at SoD3:
This is that updated with dead town removed:
This is Ezra's at SoD5:
It's more of a curiosity than anything else at this point, I feel like this got dropped a while ago, but it's interesting how after more days possible partnerings seem to open up instead of getting discarded.
I will look only within the PoE, and it that sense Achro's chart says I must be partnered with Shawn's slot whereas Ezra's says I can only be partnered with Turtle (again, within the PoE). There's more to look at and think about if we want to, but I need to go get lunch now, I'll be back and continue ISOing, but so far this ISO is only leaving me with Turtle and Ezra to vote for.
##Unvote Johanna
@Saint keep in mind Town Arete asked about the Penguin vote too. I found this suspicious as well for Arete but it bit me in the $%#! lol.
Keep in mind something, from a wolf Johanna perspective, given when she didn't vote Hectic, but she defended Saint from Penguin after that in P#1486 and P#1495 and in P#1502 lays out a town read on several people including Saint. This was her last post of meaning before day was ended early. At this point discussion had been around Hectic, Saint, and herself a fair bit even if numbers of votes hadn't come in. If a lot of discussion at that point had surrounded Hectic/Saint/Johanna and that's 2/3 wolf I don't see why she does what she does WITHOUT a vote. Voting for Hectic galvanizes things both ways. If Johanna is lynched, Hectic looks better. If Hectic is lynched, Johanna looks better. The way this reads to me is Johanna just, as town, does what she wants and didn't give a $%#! tbh. She doesn't exactly ever have sudden shifts in views or anything so laying the basis for her thoughts on the day very plainly and town reading saint hard enough to directly defend him against penguin is more pro town than anything turtle did the first two days.It's not just the Hectic vote @Achromatic . She admits to being unhelpful to town... In her own words ... she admits to "not doing enough" ; "being inconsistent" and several times she mentioned that she has no real PoE.
@Saint keep in mind Town Arete asked about the Penguin vote too. I found this suspicious as well for Arete but it bit me in the $%#! lol.
Keep in mind something, from a wolf Johanna perspective, given when she didn't vote Hectic, but she defended Saint from Penguin after that in P#1486 and P#1495 and in P#1502 lays out a town read on several people including Saint. This was her last post of meaning before day was ended early. At this point discussion had been around Hectic, Saint, and herself a fair bit even if numbers of votes hadn't come in. If a lot of discussion at that point had surrounded Hectic/Saint/Johanna and that's 2/3 wolf I don't see why she does what she does WITHOUT a vote. Voting for Hectic galvanizes things both ways. If Johanna is lynched, Hectic looks better. If Hectic is lynched, Johanna looks better. The way this reads to me is Johanna just, as town, does what she wants and didn't give a $%#! tbh. She doesn't exactly ever have sudden shifts in views or anything so laying the basis for her thoughts on the day very plainly and town reading saint hard enough to directly defend him against penguin is more pro town than anything turtle did the first two days.
Mr. Turtle on the other hand is somewhat the opposite. I've asked her for a defense ... something to work with, but she just shrugs me off.
Statistically with seven players left one of them is a possible goon ... and right now until she can give a proper defense ... it simply isn't Mr. Turtle for me today.
For now my Town core is
don_3000
digitaldude
Achromatic
That leaves in my PoE:
Ezradekezra
Johanna
Mr. Turtle
You and Johanna leaning towards Mr. Turtle and me, digitaldude and in some extend Ezradekezra leaning more towards Johanna. don_3000 kinda backed out on taking you on.
Unless my town core is messed up, this is where I am at.
So many games I hear some sort of variation on "Johanna just sounds pure but she isn't doing enough", and that's honestly a very fair assessment.
You also say that as if you weren't still defending me practically every time someone puts together a case on me tbh.So I am going back on an ISO and this post was quoted and it honestly just drives me mad. Like from day friggin 1 to day friggin 4 and there is absolutely no thought, no progression, nothing absolutely, nothing whatsoever.
I am the first to admit that I have been consistently low on content and I've failed to show up for long stretches of time, but it seems like reads of me, UG's certainly was, are still stuck in D1, and there is no effort or intent to look past that. Yes, I haven't exactly given people cause to do that, but "she was overwhelmed in a scummy way" when it was a post 20 minutes into the game being brought up in D4, it's insane.
And yeah, I know, I laughed it off when it happened (it's D1, silly things will happen) and UG is now dead and proven town, but that's 0 effort put into trying to read me at all, over another 3 days, and honestly it drives me mad.@Johanna WHY are you voting Mr. Turtle when you obviously agree with our sentiments. You should be voting #Johanna
Johanna
#60t/Johanna surprised on a random vote from Penguin on Hectic #52 or w/Johanna protecting a wolf buddie?
#1427#1486^ Hectic was caught with his pants down, what more evidence did you need?
#1730Her Defense against Arete for asking her about her mindset at the time posting the other two quoted parts
#1746^ Arete still questioning her why she didn't vote Hectic. Not she soon voted Arete after this. followed by the quote below.
#1840
So:
"Nothing meaningful in Hectic's posts" ---- we caught the wolf based on his posts. You refused to vote Hectic even thought his defense was shaddy. The NKA had no flaws.
