sheep who *are* you compelled to resolve today?
gotta be someone
Type: Posts; User: GeneralHankerchief
sheep who *are* you compelled to resolve today?
gotta be someone
Here's a mockup I did of Ara's usual avatar but with the danklissa sunglasses on:
Ara if you have a higher-res version you want this treatment applied to, just let me know
From Ara's igno iso a little bit ago, the actual quoted bit is from July:
a) I don't think we've ever played together before, outside of MAYBE a big mash or two where I don't recall us ever concentrating on each other or interacting or anything. The last time I was physically in a teamgame, Igno didn't go out that day IIRC (if Igno was even on a team at all to begin with?).
b) I've not had an especially successful wolf game in quite a long time, lol. Like, paranoia? From when? 2018?
c) The sentiment expressed is beyond boilerplate and could easily be copypasted at this (relative) point in D1 in any single game and it would still get thoughtful head nods from anyone who's merely skimming along without further scrutiny
idk if that is especially wolfy, especially considering igno sort of actually followed up on it (caveat: 3+ months later, and then apparently only because of RNG), that statement just annoys me in a vacuum and I feel like being a little petty today anyway
not especially a controversial read, but still
his latest spat of posting has locked it in for me for a good while, I think
meh I suppose the whole "GH/visor wtf exactly is going on there something POTENTIALLY WORRISOME HUH" take could count for a delivery of a wolfread, but I don't like how it's conditional and obviously the conclusion itself that I'm a wolf (unless it's talking about Visor?) is incorrect, BUT STILL.
oh also, this is a real read, I didn't like the wording of the final conclusion: "least townie" as opposed to "wolfiest" or something similar is legitimately a wolfy way to present it
your stance on Koba has been noted. You'll note that in my last reads list I basically pushed Koba down a tier out of paranoia and part of that may have been internalized from what you've been pushing for most of the year.
I'm still not interested in going there today for a number of reasons:
- I don't think Koba pushing so hard to get people involved is especially AI, considering their background. Even if you contract the game time in a more normal 36/12 or 48/24 or something this has been a low-activity game so far and I don't especially think Koba, who typically plays in quick and high-volume environments(?), is used to it.
- I think Koba's early interactions with certain people, typically Visor, back when they were taking a good amount of heat, was something that a wolf would do in that position. Instead of looking to disengage and sort of regain their footing in the thread, Koba instead kept on the attack and tried to "win" the argument in a way that went beyond trying to paint Visor as wolfy. Basically there were two typical roads a wolf takes in that sort of position, and Koba didn't really take either.
- It's a marathon, not a sprint, and I'm not chopping the top poster in a game with this low activity, not on D1 anyway lol
- This is a truly terrible take but I still gutread jumpluff's (who Koba replaced) opener as villagery
- I don't get what differentiates Koba from Frog in your mind, seeing as how Frog has also taken a sort of similar approach and view of the gamestate while you've toptowned him and yet have been pushing Koba all year.
@ Ara I think your final spoilered paragraph is the heart of it for me re: TL and the whole "slip" reaction
will get back more into things tomorrow
Definitely a fascinating subject to think about, but I think one that's best left to speculate about privately and then see if I was right about in 2027.
Short answer: It depends on a LOT, but overall, I think yes.
Frog since we've basically never been concurrently active ITT at all, is there anything you wanted to ask me?
personally I'm not sure exactly where I'm at w/r/t this question, probably somewhat close to you overall I'd guess but perhaps a smidgen more of "$%#! it, let the chips fall where they may"
This isn't really the sort of thing where either of us can convince the other, I'm just more stating my concern about it and you're stating your own side, so really the only further point in this argument is how long we can drag it out until other people start calling us "not w/w" from it.
It wasn't like an expansive body of work thing.
You toptowned sheep for making this post:
That said, you having the exact same discrepancy upon your October catch-up is... something... and is giving me pause on really slamming this home, so now my overall tone is one of "confusion" than "suspicion".
Obviously sheep and I have diverged since then, but in the beginning, you were very off in the way you read our similar behavior for reasons that I don't see you put anywhere.
I always forget one. Let's drop Michelle in with Amy and Cuth.
Reworking the framework of my readslist a bit, now that I've fully read everyone.
Not ordered within tiers.
Not today, not tomorrow:
Not today, tomorrow only in case of emergency (aka the paranoia tier):
Not today, maybe tomorrow (but probably not):
Marking incomplete but side-eying:
Do not look to this list for any sort of guidance in 2024 or whatever.
There's definitely been an undercurrent of "Ara's probably a wolf?" that I've detected so I want to be careful with this one. It's also been ages since I've played with her and I've never especially been a good Ara reader to begin with, so we'll see where this goes. I myself had vague ~bad feels~ about her posts before going into this iso; we'll see if those hold up.
I want to highlight separate passages from Ara's catchup walls from April:
It's not like she's (theoretically) holding me to a higher standard; her top towning of Sheep came after one post of his; similarly, the comment I mentioned about me also seemed to be a single-post reaction. Ara's walls, to me, didn't come from viewing the whole body of work, rather they semeed to be more of an in-the-moment timewarp. So I don't really think any "well, GH is a different sort of wolf" etc take really applies here.
So what does account for the difference then?
I really am not trying to make this iso so self-focused, but her GH takes really just keep jumping out at me. On a similar point to the above section, here's Ara once again commenting on her paranoia of me and hesitancy to put me higher... but why? What's the source? What had I done to a certain point to make her so paranoid? As evidenced in the above quotes, we agreed on quite a lot back in April.
Like, I'm aware she said that I was one of her least fleshed-out reads at the time, but on the very surface level (agreement about Frog, early "Koba v" feels, other reads) we were very much in lockstep. Again, on a very surface level, even if I wasn't super fleshed out, I feel like said paranoia of me would not be an actual reaction.
The Wes thing:
The genesis is that Wes takes umbrage to an exact read of Ara's on him and feels like she's honing in on a single post of his and not taking into account his full body of work. A somewhat nittery and circular fight ensues:
This entire argument leaves me empty inside. I'm going to drop a very obvious "Wes/Ara not w/w" read, just because I feel like an argument like this, that's this circular and this trifling, this early in the game, is not something that happens between wolfbros in this environment. They both have their own interpretations of what happened, stake out their positions, and then talk each other out.
I do think Wes comes off a bit better for it, but that's more on the back of Wes's good posting in it and is not a judgement of Ara's posts herself. Wes's postscript to it here is pretty damn villagery, and Ara just hasn't really risen to that standard, from what I've seen.
No posts from May until a couple days ago.
Incredibly, in Ara's (second) catchup walls of the game's early posts, she has the exact same reaction discrepancy from mine and Sheep's similar takes on Frog:
At least she comes to hate her Wes push.
Verdict: Some concerns, many of them partially mitigated by her most recent catchup. Please get current.
I apologize in advance to future readers of this exact page for making so many quotes/spoilers and thus making it a hard time in general to go through/load the page in the first place.
Sadly, you're not out of the woods yet.
Gonna keep this one short. I have less of a problem with her "overly self-aware" early posts now than I did back in March. I'm most interested in her later take on Ara, below (plus a followup set of takes on others):
I know what I said above re: not reading too much into how people are around or not, and this kinda fits. I'm filing it under "noted" right now but it's not really moving the needle much for me on Ara one way or another. Unique circumstances, this game's basically never been anyone's major focus of attention yet (and may not be until EOD? Later? Ever?).
Verdict: @Ampharos time to buckle down
Yeah $%#! it, I'm putting her at rand. 10 minutes after I make that post and I already hate that I've villa read it.
Pretty thin iso, good amount of one-off check-ins with further promises of activity (which haven't really come).
Bit snippy at Marshal for her vote on Michelle:
And then finally getting into the game with takes on more than one person + a Gnome iso fairly recently.
Pretty limp overall, but I also don't really think Michelle's... trying to do anything as a wolf, really? I'm not as familiar with her wolfing style as some are, but $%#! it, her Marshal thing seemed a bit pure?
This is the exact sort of read that's burned me in the past. Someone with more Michelle experience tell me if I'm off base.
alright, let's see if I can't get the rest of these knocked out today
Unrelated to the above: One thing I want to make sure I don't do is level myself into making activity (and related) reads too much - i.e. this person would be more/less present as a wolf, etc. Way too many variables at play to make that kind of call here, need to just limit myself to what they've actually put down ITT in order to preserve sanity.
Upon reexamination, there's some ambiguity on whether TL actually said they were going to skim everything in the 17 minutes between posts, so I can't super ding them for that after all.
That said, I'm still keeping my vote where it is, just because I really did not like their "SLIP????" reaction.
Villa circle (hopefully only one in here at most)
Frog (yes, really)
Koba* (some paranoia here but nothing I'd even consider acting on this year)
Arapocalypse (I think she might go in thinly wolfy?)
Ampharos (possibly in rand?)
Michelle (no damn idea)
idk if I'll get to the other three today, plus need to talk about Frog in more detail since I'm probably gonna get asked about my turnaround on him.
If I don't get to the others today, then I should be around this rough timeframe tomorrow. Don't have a real preference for realtiming vs just solo-posting at this juncture.
I vaguely recall me dropping a thin villa read on Igno back in the early part of the game due to in the moment posting or something along those lines. That's being retracted; there's just more to judge now and certain reasons don't hold up.
Kind of agree with Frog that I'm not the biggest fan of Igno's most recent efforts:
With a broad amount of happenings to comment on since your last check-in of substance, this summary seems pretty narrow-focused. Like, going for associatives in this gamestate, and not even super telling ones, is an easy, easy way to look productive without actually doing anything of note.
Lightly wolfy, would like to see a kind of overall picture from Ignoramus before EOD.
A number of useless self-aware-check-in-but-not-doing-anything posts, but at least in the first few months Sheep was active and paying attention to things even if he wasn't super present. His posts made sense in the context of what was going on at the time. This has mostly abated since (northern hemisphere) summer rolled around. There's a thought that sheep could feel less pressured to contribute and help his team out due to a potentially favorable gamestate to wolves, but as there hasn't especially been a runaway wagon all year, I think the far more likely explanation is that sheep is just doing other stuff regardless of alignment.
Anyway, let's get to his meatiest post:
Second paragraph (about Ara) is just kind of the exact way it's worded: if Sheep was a wolf looking to pocket Ara, he'd probably excise the "me being top town is :?" bit from his paragraph; if he was a wolf looking to shade Ara, he'd probably have the tone of the paragraph be "positive BUT negative" instead of its actual form, which was "negative BUT positive". It's little stuff but it matters to me.
Overall, let's put sheep on the same tier as Marshal.
Grouping our three least active players together.
Kind of interesting in the differences between how each has been treated. Cuth has made the fewest posts, but he's also by far taken the least amount of heat. The difference? He's been outright not around, as compared to lend and WWH, who both occasionally pop in and do nothing. Can't really make any conclusions off it. Maybe look at it in retrospect on how they've been treated by others once we have flips down, MAYBE, but probably not even that tbh. I think if lend or something had made four posts and peaced liked Cuth did, he'd be feeling less heat.
Anyway. I'd probably put lend as the wolfiest of the three, with Cuth at rand and me being outright unsure of what the $%#! to do with WWH.
The reason for this is pretty simple: lend is at least pantomiming the fact that he should theoretically be doing stuff:
Whereas WWH is just toally out in left field and I'm not 100% sure she's fully cognizant that she is playing a mafia game and that doing so entails certain responsibilities:
Why is lend's approach wolfier? It just is, lol.
Additionally, I'm more parking this down for the future/in case anyone else wants to indulge, but here is a game from July/August 2020 in which WWH was wolfing for those who think making a meta comparison might be worthwhile.
@lendunistus, you hosted the above game I just linked - any thoughts there on WWH's behavior compared to here?
Conclusion: Not sure what I want to do about any of these three, but if we decide to punt this year, I'd tentatively rather it be lend.
Marshal's vibe is openly, gleefully, and repeatedly not caring about this game, making many such posts to reinforce this vibe. Only time it's broken is when she gets grumpy upon being shaded by Koba. I do think there's genuine suspicion towards Michelle, but it's pretty understated. Relevant posts below:
Michelle, IIRC, has taken umbrage to this last one but Marshal hasn't really addressed it. In any case, this feels like she's low-key got a genuine scumread on her but isn't super comfortable about laying it out on the table yet. Idk, feels like it would have been explored (or, "explored") more if Marshal was wolfing. Maybe.
Let's go with "thinly villa". Less so than Gnome + the people in my circle.
Don't think I've actually played with Gnome that often. Maybe in the occasional turbo. I usually ending up randing wolf against her too in those, lol. So no real meta basis here, considering differences in typical game format etc.
Good amount of prodding others to expound on their takes, but not much follow-up on her own part, at least not initially. Around May, she starts isoing - Frog/Wes (both in contention at the time), and later Marshal. I kinda like her Wes and Frog isos (can't be assed to link them, sorry), they're short but they're not, like, performative or anything, she's simply saying what she's seeing.
Her Marshal iso is in the below spoiler:
A bit IIOA-y, especially early on, but improves as time goes by. Every time there's something of Gnome's that I'm a bit skeevy on (not providing much of her own content at first despite asking others for stuff, going narration-heavy in isos instead of whether something's wolfy or not), she basically rectifies my issues with it in short order.
Fairly consistently around, pops in for a bit to be her usual pleasant self/provide a neutral comment on whatever's happening, wouldn't mind more pushing the game forward a bit from her. Show me an actual scumread beyond pressuring the inactives!
Aside from that, no major issues.
Lost in the excess of that extended Frog/Koba/TL brouhaha is that I don't think TL's explanation for the Koba scumread, plus the whole jump on the slip, is very valid or convincing.
- I don't like how, a mere 2 hours after Frog drops the "slip" post, TL comes in and posts content for the first time in the entire game and ends up very lazily pouncing on the immediately above accusation of a slip.
- I don't like how TL says they're going to powerskim 14 pages (at 50ppp, that'd be 650+ posts) after making the above post and comes back in 17 minutes and drops a readslist.
- I think said readslist retroactively paints Koba as TL's top scumread for reasons of "trying too hard".
Now, I could level myself out of this read by saying that I'm not sure a wolf that's been kind of out of the picture to this point would decide to enter by taking on the most active player in the game, but I could also level myself back into the read by saying perhaps w!TL felt forced to do this because they realized that the "slip" thing was probably nothing and needed some additional backing to the scumread. So I'm just not going to go into that at all.
##Vote Trustworthy Liberal
Talked enough about this sequence, I'm gonna try to zoom back out now.
This is just a bizarre $%#!ing sequence:
Frog's asking for Koba to clarify a point that I don't think is a slip, is more just of a misunderstanding. Koba is afk at the time, doesn't respond, Frog continues pressing anyway and starts accusing, and then TL comes in out of nowhere with the above and is like "sniff sniff... SLIP???!?!"
I don't want to overuse "literally" but like, this is pretty damn "literally out of nowhere", considering it:
a) was TL's first time posting in two weeks
b) TL had made six posts in total before the "slip" post
c) it was the first actual content TL made in the entire game
Thought experiment: We've all wolfed in the past. We've probably even wolfed in games that have had slips outed, whether the slips were genuine or not. How have you reacted to slips, real or imagined, as a wolf vs how you've reacted to them as a villager? I'm only speaking personally here in terms of my own playstyle, but there's a pretty big gap in how I react to them, and I like to think it's at least somewhat universal:
As town: Confusion, try to parse out whether it's real or fake or not, hesitancy until you make a decision
As a wolf, knowing the slip is real: OH GOD PARTNER IS $%#!ED GET IN ON IT EARLY VOTE VOTE VOTE
As a wolf, knowing the slip is imagined: Two courses of action here, either try to slam it home and secure the easy town chop, or play the "wise sage" role and act skeptical of it.
(Note that wolfy "skepticism" has some similarities to villagery "confusion/solving" and the former can even be seen as an attempt to emulate the latter, but there are definitely differences)
The point of all this is that regardless of whether or not the slip is real (I don't think it's anything tbh) I don't think TL's reaction to it is villagery.
Off the cuff thoughts off my memories from the first few months of the game + reading posts generated since May:
Villa circle (hopefully only one in here at most)
Frog (yes, really)
Koba* (some paranoia here but nothing I'd even consider acting on this year)
This part of the list isn't really as firmed up as I'd like it to be and yeah, hopefully it doesn't have too many leaks. Visor is just more out of wanting than anything else but I'm never going after him on D1 and he knows it, lol. That said, I don't super have much suspicion of him either, so.
Shad probably top town, his posts feel pure, I kind of like the way he's playing around with the philosophy of the game and having its unique setup factor into his approach to stuff. I've done the same but haven't really put it ITT because I don't want to super dive into it and instead concentrate on actual bread and butter stuff like reads etc, but I've still had the thoughts. I also know that taking this sort of approach is something that wolves can very easily do but I also don't super give a $%#!, Shad's still been villagery and I think his "game format" sort of posts are in the goldilocks zone where he's not really relying on them too much, instead more using them as supplements/just thinking out loud as he tries to parse through $%#!.
Wes, saw I post I made a few months back where I pointed out my reasons for townreading him then and $%#! it, it still holds.
Frog. Bit of a turnaround here on my part, probably need to devote a separate post to him down the line, and I'll get on that (today/this week), but tl;dr it's very possible that I just outright misremembered his gameplay style from before this game and my reasons for scumreading him early on just outright aren't valid for exactly him. Also have liked his approach since coming back/which have coincided with me paying less attention here. Like I said, I probably need to do a follow up here. Finally, I think he may be onto something with Ara. Will talk about Ara in a bit.
Koba. Bit of EM paranoia going on in here just because that community $%#!ing knows how to wolf, but that's all I've got really. Otherwise villagery. Not considering this year, probably not 2022 either, but we'll see.
I don't think any inclusions in this overall list should be very controversial? Not even exclusions ("X should be here too!"), just the names I have in there. Let me know if you have objections/why.
Sorry about going dark there for a while, needed some time away from the site after how Anni ended.
Got some free time at work today so I'm gonna read/reread and see where I stand with things.
I've been thinking about how to word this post since I was first notified of what was happening on Friday night. I'll spare you all from spending time on my personal feelings towards the matter.
All I will say is that this game, of this writing, currently has 61,175 posts between the OPs, the game, and postgame. There may be a couple more that pop up between when I start writing this and when this posts. It is the most voluminous mafia game ever played.
60,646 of those posts were made by people who put their hearts and souls into this game in some fashion: whether from playing, and giving it their all, and enjoying themselves and their interactions with others; whether from hosting, and culminating months of effort and preparation into a single frenzied week in order to deliver the best game we possibly could; whether from programming this site for years on end and allowing Modbot to flawlessly run these sorts of games, which gave everyone more freedom to focus on more creative matters.
My sincerest hope is that, when looking back at this game, you do not let the 529 posts that do not fall into this category outweigh the 60,646 (and counting) posts that do.
optional setting is probably good here
if this were the case, I would probably keep it on normally but turn it off if any FoLer was playing
Anni isn't banned from individual nominations, so I'm going to make two.
Nominate alexa for Best Town Performance - Single Player (Mash)
Nominate tonystarkprime for Best Town Performance - Single Player (Mash)
I'm going to use the same nomination paragraph for each, which is appropriate since alexa's and TSP's fates were pretty heavily linked in this game anyway. I believe this was both of their first mashes ever, and boy, did they jump into the deep end, displaying incredible WIM and co-leading the village throughout Anni, which is double to triple the size of your normal mash. They underwent the full mash experience: watching as the people they trusted died around them, trying to corral the village and keep the shots lists accurate, placing in events, and weathering the emotional ups and downs that endgaming in a mash like this provides. Notably, both continued to co-lead the village in the later stages of the game when mech solving became paramount, despite neither of them being mechanically clear for most of the game (TSP did late on, alexa never did). They trusted each other, they relied on each other, the passed off tree stump status to each other, they never wavered, and they dealt with all the bull$%#! while driving the town relentlessly onward to to their goal. It's only fitting that I should nominate them together, and it's going to be a bastard to judge them separately when I have to vote for one (but not the other) in six months.
We intend to start randing at that time, yes.
Don't expect your role PMs for a while after that, though.
Conclusion: Part 3
We are breaking with tradition a little bit for the final guest of the evening, for reasons that are about to be made readily apparent. While we have gazed across the party and analyzed the attendees and discussed whether or not they would go Mafia, we cannot do that for our final subject. That is for one simple reason: They are the Person Who Does Not Show Up. This one is, perhaps, our saddest and surest case of all.
The Person Who Does Not Show Up has been heard from since quarantine, but only sporadically at best. They joined a couple of the Zoom friends meetups back in March and April 2020 before quickly losing interest, sometimes even mid-conversation. They remember to text best wishes on birthdays on the like, sometimes. They will respond to conversations initiated by others, again sometimes, but never start them themselves. Most people at the party are bemused by this lack of communication and are genuinely hoping to see their friend in person for the first time in over a year and actually have a real chat with them, just like the old days. These people are bound to be disappointed.
It doesn't matter if the Person Who Does Not Show Up is on the periphery of the group, the guest of honor, or somewhere in between. They may respond yes to the invitation, they may not respond at all, but they're certainly not going to be there, and they're probably not going to send forewarning of their lack of attendance. They have more important things on their plate. You see, they signed up for a Mafia game that started earlier in the week and, well, they're still alive and it's getting down to crunch time. They decided to prioritize, and the result is, inevitably, what it has always been: Mafia takes precedence.
It could be because the party coincides with an important EOD. It could be that they were fully intending to show up to the party, but then there was an out-of-nowhere claim and they got caught up in the fallout. It could be that they randed wolf and have to sit on night actions so their moronic partner doesn't slide in and blow up the entire plan. It could simply be because they're in the final stages of designing their *own* game that's set to run next week and have convinced themselves they don't have time for anything else. Whatever the issue, the end result is the same: A no-show in the service of the greater cause, and disappointed guests.
The Person Who Does Not Show Up does not have the potential to go Mafia. They have already gone Mafia, perhaps years ago. They have made their decision. They have been consumed. They have accepted the social consequences. They had a choice once, but no longer. It is too late for them. We can do little but pity them, and perhaps hope that the next party takes place when they died early in a game. Assuming they're not in an intense argument with somebody about the utility of the jailkeeper role in DVC, of course.
SilverKeith is victorious! They were The Person Who Does Not Show Up, Mafia!
(this is the end of the flavor, hope you enjoyed!)
I promise I have not forgotten about this game.
I will get back into the swing of things once Anni has ended (and probably a few recovery days after that).