Search:

Type: Posts; User: Guillotina

Page 1 of 60 1 2 3 4

Search: Search took 0.12 seconds.

  1. Sticky: Game Thread I want commitment not hedginess

    Quote Originally Posted by Yami Fenrir (#3730)
    Guilli I do not like how it feels like you've been pressuring people into voting alongside with you with posts like that ngl
    I want commitment not hedginess
  2. Sticky: Game Thread I think it’s all theatrics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yami Fenrir (#3725)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3723)
    Quote Originally Posted by Yami Fenrir (#3712)
    I'm here to hammer.

    I'm stupidly indecisive about my vote right now but urgh.
    But… you had a clear PoE not long ago, what happened?
    All of this EOD madness, what do you think
    I think it’s all theatrics
  3. Sticky: Game Thread But… you had a clear PoE not long ago, what...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yami Fenrir (#3712)
    I'm here to hammer.

    I'm stupidly indecisive about my vote right now but urgh.
    But… you had a clear PoE not long ago, what happened?
  4. Sticky: Game Thread And Neopest is trying to save him, maybe.

    And Neopest is trying to save him, maybe.
  5. Sticky: Game Thread No. He is gonna flip scum.

    Quote Originally Posted by HellsBells (#3696)
    oh god, Conq is gonna flip town, isn't he
    No. He is gonna flip scum.
  6. Sticky: Game Thread As opposed to just flipping you? Like do you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#3670)
    Will anyone join me on Wind/Tilga/Vern?

    Maybe you will get info on my slot that way.
    As opposed to just flipping you?

    Like do you want us to chop through three people to verify you?
  7. Sticky: Game Thread Same for Conq

    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#3660)
    then his wagon mythically disappeared
    Same for Conq
  8. Sticky: Game Thread https://youtu.be/psQMTmE5lxA I love this song



    I love this song
  9. Sticky: Game Thread Depends on flips but knowing myself i would hint...

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#3566)
    Ooh this is a fun question - who would everyone peek if you were cop?

    I would peek dangerhaz
    Depends on flips but knowing myself i would hint for a possible in the middle-ish player.
  10. Sticky: Game Thread Im having lots of fun

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#3554)
    I’m gunna scum read ppl who are having fun just because.
    Im having lots of fun
  11. Sticky: Game Thread So i am the only who is enjoying this game.

    So i am the only who is enjoying this game.
  12. Sticky: Game Thread Boring answer

    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#3530)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3527)
    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#3518)
    if conq flips town then i know where to go next but i will not show the mafia my hand
    ##Vote Conq

    Will you be looking at me first?
    i cant tell you because you might NK me if i say yes (this is wifom)
    Boring answer
  13. Sticky: Game Thread Conq Will you be looking at me first?

    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#3518)
    if conq flips town then i know where to go next but i will not show the mafia my hand
    ##Vote Conq

    Will you be looking at me first?
  14. Sticky: Game Thread In the last game we played, you were not this lost

    Quote Originally Posted by WindwardAway (#3511)
    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#3506)
    Quote Originally Posted by WindwardAway (#3500)
    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#3491)
    Maybe the problem here is everyone is playing so hard to gain accuracy and advancement chances they arent playing the board
    I havent had any idea what I'm doing and I still don't tbh
    I'm just here trying to figure out where I need to look next
    nice so youre scum just playing as dumb as possible

    got it
    Whatever you wanna call it
    I'm town but I don't think my opinion really matters anymore until you guys have confirmation I'm town
    So I just don't really care that much
    I'll stick with my reads and that's all I can do
    In the last game we played, you were not this lost
  15. Sticky: Game Thread Soooo help him bus his partner or force them to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vernon (#3505)
    I hate that I’m voting WITH Zeus now but I think him and Conq are both scum sooooo ????

    AHHHH
    Soooo help him bus his partner or force them to?
  16. Sticky: Game Thread In a good way or a bad way?

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#3488)
    Moths approach to eod is absolutely wild
    In a good way or a bad way?
  17. Sticky: Game Thread No, the time for cases is over. Im not gonna...

    Quote Originally Posted by sothys (#3459)
    @guillutina
    please dismantle me.
    Help me help you.

    nothing i have seen today from moth seems towny. But im battleing like my core values here.
    can you make a case that moth is >rand wolf, and not just that they where counter wagon yesterady, i dont like the way that wagon formed.
    No, the time for cases is over. Im not gonna write a case or a legacy in the last hour if EoD, what you take me for.

    ISO me.
  18. Sticky: Game Thread I hate you. If you live dont ask me to work with...

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#3455)
    WE're going out for dinner!!

    I'll not be able to post anything properly when I do- but- I want Vernon over, and, I dont like the resistance or town reads.

    In terms of legacy if I die:

    Plz look at:
    - Neopest if none of their scum reads flip wolf and they're still alive they have a burden of proficiency
    - Dangerhaz. look back to my case ESPECAILLY if wind/moth resolve as both town

    Lofe y0u all
    I hate you. If you live dont ask me to work with you.
  19. Sticky: Game Thread I want Conq-Moth getting resolved, you are...

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#3436)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3424)
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#3418)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3416)
    @DoctorZeus you are freaking me out right now.
    lol why
    Because im picking scummy vibes from you, im seeing you associated with Conq more now.
    dude you made a great meta read on me

    you've got this.

    just dont create these false dichotomies where I have to vote with you OR ON MY TOWN READ to be town read because that feels so manipulative even if I wanna vote the guy (conq)
    I want Conq-Moth getting resolved, you are gerting in the way of that and i hate it. You are top wagon why would you want to go for Vernon when YOU GAVE SCUM TEAD CONQ THE MODT mate!

    If you are town and you die today without helping me open this game im gonna be really mad at you.
  20. Sticky: Game Thread Because im picking scummy vibes from you, im...

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#3418)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3416)
    @DoctorZeus you are freaking me out right now.
    lol why
    Because im picking scummy vibes from you, im seeing you associated with Conq more now.
  21. Sticky: Game Thread DoctorZeus you are freaking me out right now.

    @DoctorZeus you are freaking me out right now.
  22. Sticky: Game Thread moth

    ##Vote moth
  23. Sticky: Game Thread Oh look, he is here for EoD. I thought you said...

    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#3406)
    Can’t really keep up with the thread this morning. @me if it’s an urgent question for me.

    I’m willing to vote Vernon, Windward, or Tilga. I like DZ better after his solving yesterday and there’s nobody else I want to vote for today.
    Oh look, he is here for EoD. I thought you said you wouldnt be. (I kinda suspected you were lying).
  24. Sticky: Game Thread Yay but when i engaged directly with you and...

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#3393)
    @Guillotina

    18 separate times I wolf read Conq d1 (obviously there's connection between some of them given continuity of posts, but I've removed a bunch of chains):

    Quote Originally Posted by Poyser (#1951)
    Moth legit hasn’t been trying to make friends with anybody. He’s even spent his time under pressure antagonising me who townreads him

    He promised to save dr zeus which basically solidified his own possible def

    I don’t see wolf in him at all, none of that makes any sense. There’s no Wolf strategy present there

    Switch ffs
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#683)
    oh and conq is a bit performative but in what might be a "im playing in champs" way and not a "im a wolf way" but there's definitely an air of overthoughtness to his posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#705)
    There's a lot of chat around the post I just quoted where dangerhaz, conq, sothys, and moth both don't actually seem interested in solving peoples alignments and ppl like poyser and Neo come out quite good because they seem to notice push it.

    This is kind of an example of it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Poyser (#258)
    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#252)
    I would say comparatively to a game where they subbed in for a slot that griefed out of rhe game and was a runaway miskill - they redeemed the slot and got the n1 kill. I was scum that game and our team feared their volume and townyness.

    just not feelin it yet
    So you’re expecting someone to start a game from the beginning the way they start when they sub in part way through?
    If I was to rank it I'd say moth + sothys seem worst
    conq also kinda bad and too pockety
    dangerhaz just vanilla a bit like Ricardo


    poyser look good
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#742)
    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#606)
    Update on me: I just read the Dangerhaz ISO. I kind of went there expecting I might come out with a scum read. I especially wanted some clarification on his Windward townread. While following on in real-time, that read just came across as unjustified.

    My impression from the ISO dive was:
    Eh, okay fine, I don't see anything suspicious.

    I re-read the Windward post that Danger used to support his read. I can grok that. It sounds decently "genuine." I don't agree with the read -- I'm still pretty Null on Windward -- but I can follow Danger's thinking. I like that Danger did not feel the need to add a bunch of window dressing to what was just an early town read that I was questioning.

    Otherwise, I am not seeing a ton of content or drive from Danger, but these are still early days.

    So, there is nothing too exciting to report. I don't have a strong take on Danger or Windward. Sorry! This game is hard.
    @Conq why did you spoiler your actual take?
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#761)
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#616)




    WASSUP

    and here I am!

    Its me again.

    Off top of my head takes:

    Conq
    scum lean.
    Their questions are very unsolvey and generic, and, their town seems really buddying. Some things do weird me out like...spoilering his take on dangerhaz - that gives off a vibe of "don't read my reads" and "HERE I AM SOLVING BUT STAY AWAY." that one take he had on ratchet and someone was dead clever though (if approached in a strange way.)
    I see more of the wolfy "I'm your pal" archetype who's solving attempts to offend no one here than a town archetype.
    BUT I do think that town is possible- could legit be someone taking the game slow. I think less likely right now given that one game we played together where he banged as a wolf which gave me impression he is just generically good.
    So he's worthy of a deep dive and chats to get under his skin

    Dangerhaz
    Rand to scum lean
    Kinda 0 memory of anything he did. Conq did that hidden read, and, Neo pointed out his empty takes which I agreed with way back on page like 5.
    I kinda blame me a bit given I know I'm focusing on my pals in reread naturally, but, I think another one worthy of deep diving

    DoctorZeus
    MU Elite

    Guillotina
    Strong town- have explained.
    Think this is town meta + town approach + town motivation and find his whole approach pretty bad if wolf because I think he's getting widely scum read for his actions and he knows he will do

    HellsBells
    No take no memory

    moth
    schrodingers moth.
    I both town and wolf read him.
    His actual takes and approach seem town motivated and there have been some moments where I just look at him and think YES THIS IS TOWN MOTH I KNOW
    But then a fair bit where I just disagree with what he's saying- really seems to be trying to be town read way too hard and a fair amount of empty diplomatic posts

    neopest
    town read (with wariness)
    Seems to have towny actions. as I read through I mind melded alot of her thoughts as or before she said them.
    Some stuff seemed a bit too...ingratiating in a microcosm, but, in general I have no real reason to doubt and definitely couldn't put my finger on it.
    Call it lingering paranoia

    Poyser
    Town read.
    I think they fit the general "solving without a clue but with suspicion" town archetype thats really hard to fake. Seems to jump around a lot and is looking at whole board

    Ratchet
    No read, can't remember

    Ricardo
    No read, can't remember

    sothys
    Strong wolf read.
    I think nothing they do is advancing town agenda, I don't like the takes, I don't like the interventions, and, they never seem to be actively solving ppl. Don't like the omgus on me, and especially for the bad reasons and lack of curiosity in to my alignment
    I will ISO to revalidate but my vote is here.

    Tilgarial
    Kinda wolf lean because I do remember thinking early on they were a bit just there but I might be being uncharitable

    Vernon
    #Feelthevern

    WindwardAway
    Town read- but- I've seen some ppl who I town read wolf read them.
    I like posting and broad approach to game. cant remember specific takes though so thats something to revisit

    Yami Fenrir
    No read, can't remember



    So ordered this is:

    Town
    Guillo
    Poyser

    town lean
    WindwardAway
    Anne

    schrodingers moth
    moth

    wolf lean
    tigrarrarial
    Conq
    Dangerhaz

    wolf rad
    sothys



    No read
    Yami Fenrir
    Vernon
    Ricardo
    Ratchet
    Hellsbells

    In order of priority for rereading:
    1) Sothys (validated wolf read)
    2) Conq + moth (understand more about my read and try to work them out)
    3) Anne + windward (validate town read)
    4) Ratchet + Ricardo (posted alot so deserve reading)

    I think?

    open to qs
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#762)
    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#749)
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#742)
    @Conq why did you spoiler your actual take?
    (1) For drama
    (2) Because the other Semi-game has tons of spoilers in it. And we didn't have any.
    (3) Because I am a Wolf and I didn't want anyone to see my take because I know it's pretend, so I hid it where nobody would see it.
    Guys, conq wolf slopped omg
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#776)
    So @Conq in your iso:

    - Whats your take on Guillo's response to your opening?

    - Who do you wolf read out of all the responses to the discourse it created?
    I think it seems like you w read Ricardo, and tbh, his question kinda blew in as you said in 182

    - 208 is one of the things I find too pockety + fake solvey.
    The opening q feels like a gee up of windward, and the follow up seems like a softball "what you said can be what wolves say" or thereabouts. you kinda then float away from windward and don't discourse more like with poser in the earlier interaction

    - 410 whats your take on if somyths is a wolf? what does that make ratchet?
    my concern here is that whilst your read is good tbh, you only treat it one way- imo if somyths is a wolf then ratchet is always town by similar logic. you made the more advanced read but not the easier one! and looking on it...what you are doing is semi discrediting the ratchet read on you by implying he's scum and sothys town. this last bits a stretch but it gave me pause when paired with first bit AND my wolf rad on sothys

    - in 505 you mention moth for the first time I think and it implies to me a pretty strong town read (but might be wrong.) Do you strongly town read moth?
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#870)
    Quote Originally Posted by Poyser (#868)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#612)
    And here it begins. Every $%#!ing game
    Yep, I get told I’m too annoying pretty much every time I play on here lmao. It’s annoying
    Why do you think sothys annoys you? what do you make of it?

    Also, what do you think of my v!sothys read? I find every take and action they make p bad but think its coming from town.


    Whats thoughts on conq?
    Im very undecided and leaning wolf
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#882)
    ##Vote Conq
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#917)
    Quote Originally Posted by sothys (#909)
    @DoctorZeus
    as to your point 2 - thats my entire problem with the gamestate, is that everything in it revolves around 2 things:
    1 the conq joke.
    2 other games.

    So the only place where i feel like have a real grasp of the game, is the pushes towards me.. and my town reads, i value finding towny people more than finding wolves on day 1 2 and sometimes 3, depending on wagons/posible spew.

    And when ever i stick my head out, the same few people stand around with a wackamole like club raedy to say "HAH! you suck !" But theres nothing new and it feels more like a suppresion tactic than playing the game. I dont see the value of me explaining the same thing over and over.
    and im def not a strong town lead spot atm, so i dont see the value in suppression either.
    meh I don't think thats happening?

    I've been pushing conq for things outside the guillo thing.
    Ratchet has votes for his approach.
    Windward is pretty polarised atm for their own play.
    Vernon is getting pressured for ducking around and people are talking about it
    Moths been a pretty highly discussed player- most ppl town read him I kinda have him middling and potential wolf.

    This is off the top of my head . there's probably more


    you just seem stuck in the world view of whats happened to you and it comes across in each post
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#1179)
    Quote Originally Posted by Yami Fenrir (#1171)
    Regarding Conq:

    In G6 they acted like something I would best describe as an interrogator. Asking a ton of questions and hard ones.

    It was unironically the reason Psycho and I selected them for the kill (see also: conq's bio). This opening seems like a callback to that playstyle:

    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#27)
    Yay! Let's go!

    (1) I am grateful to be alive, against all odds.
    (2) I am grateful and honored to be playing this silly game with all of you.
    (3) From what I've read of the semi games, this roster is really strong. And from what I've read of the other semi-final and mountainous games in general, it's really damn hard to catch scum. It all makes me feel pretty motivated and effortful, ya know? Let's put in the work and kill some bad guys.

    If you are town, don't let us mischop you. Make us find you.

    If you are scum, I'm coming for you.
    But... to be honest, I'm not seeing that here. Despite claiming to put in as much effort it really doesn't feel that way to me.

    Early part is all defensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#64)
    Can you elaborate on your mindmeld please? Guillo did not elaborate much, so I'm curious what part you agree with and why.
    Quote Originally Posted by WindwardAway (#65)
    Lack of $%#!posting?
    Sorry, I think the thread is only just starting to focus on solving now. I would consider most of the earlier posts to be fluff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#75)
    What a question!

    Well, what do you know of me? Have you read any of my games? Did you read my semi-final game? Do you care about my answer to this question?
    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#79)
    Talk more about this please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#96)
    I don't have a great meta device for you here, I'm afraid. I think me scum game is pretty strong, and my intent, as scum, is to act as much like Town!Conq as I can.

    I just played a scum game on MU. You can read it here. Hopefully you can find something useful so that you can sort me in this game.


    Talking about their own scum meta pings me every time. Windward is guilty of this too. Why? Literally the only reason scum would give their honest meta is if they planned to go against it this game. It's champs, for crying out loud! I did that exact same thing in G6, even.

    After that I feel like the windward - conq interaction feels kind of artificial:


    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#208)
    Windward, why discredit your ability to sort the game?

    I understand that your reads didn't pan out in that game, but you played it with a lot of confidence in your ability. Putting that game aside, are you generally pretty good at forming correct reads as Town?
    Quote Originally Posted by WindwardAway (#218)
    It's about 50-50
    In a non-mountainous game my accuracy is better because I have a decent enough understanding of what should or shouldn't be considered a mech clear, in conjunction with social tells. In mountainous games? The first one I played, I was 0/3 and also death tunnelled villagers every day. I tunnelled a wolf on the very last day and weaseled my way out of an ML, but ultimately dropped the push and two other villagers crossvoted instead.
    Im better at reading certain players than others because of their style, so if I can pinpoint what kind of player they are, I'm more likely to figure out what counts as a towntell or wolftell for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#235)
    Thanks. So why say this in thread:

    If you're looking for accurate reads early in a mountainous game, it ain't me.

    I ask because wolves have obvious reasons to discredit their ability to make correct reads. I don't think townies have reasons to do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#241)
    I don't know. I've mentioned a couple of pings. I'll share more as my thoughts develop. The game is afoot.


    This is one of the first posts I can find that look like alignment solving (the others are largely defensive) but conq doesn't follow up on this for a long time. It's also not a vote on Ratchet, but certainly fans the flames.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#310)
    This post from Ratchet says loudly to me: "I DON'T HAVE WOLF CHAT! I AM READING FROM THE BEGINNING WITHOUT TALKING TO MY PARTNERS!" It actually says, in the post, that he has only read page 1. Wanting to make that very clear, as if the take itself didn't make that clear already.

    So, to me, this is either a Wolf trying to get a "derp clear" by exclaiming loudly that they don't have wolf chat, or else it is Town.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#410)
    This was the first person to have a strong "Oh Ratchet is obvTown" reaction to Ratchet's entrance. I feel like if Ratchet is a Wolf, Sothys is near 100% Town. I don't believe one of Ratchet's partners would have had such a strong take.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafia Host (#1159)
    Retrospective Day 1 Votecount as of Post #410

    Post #410 was originally posted at 4:09 PM EDT on Monday, August 8th, 2022.

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    3 Ratchet Ricardo (28), Poyser (49), WindwardAway (65)
    1 Conq Ratchet (9)
    1 Dangerhaz moth (63)
    1 Tilgarial neopest (58)
    9 Not voting Dangerhaz (16), HellsBells (7), Vernon (0), Yami Fenrir (2), sothys (15), Conq (34), Tilgarial (19), DoctorZeus (0), Guillotina (39)

    View Vote History

    Requested by Yami Fenrir.
    Ratchet is one of the first actual people I can find that conq seems to dig into more than surface level. Which odd, because I felt like conq was basically a hellbore in G6. But it makes sense if you consider that Ratchet was picking up votes at the time. Makes me think Ratchet is town if Conq is scum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#734)
    It implies that only if Moth's statement is about specific reads rather than process, right?

    Like, I can comment on most players' process right now. I can evaluate whether slots are making arguments that ring true. I can evaluate effort, persuasiveness, clarity of thought, candor, toxicity, etc.

    My point is that I don't feel like Windward had very crystalized reads or pushes such that a Wolf could have TMI regarding Windward's reads. The comment seemed to me to be more about process. But I have not ISOed Windward. Maybe Windward did have more firm reads that a Wolf could evaluate. If Windward did have such reads that might represent the TMI on which you base your Moth read, do you have a sense of what those reads are?
    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#805)
    ##Vote WindwardAway

    @WindwardAway, I don't think you townread me in our qualifier. Am I wrong about that? I think the narrative you are spinning here: "Oh, Conq was so ObvTown in the qualifier that he was the N1 kill so he must be a wolf here cause we're 6 hours in and he's not obvTown" is beneath Town!Windward, especially because I don't remember you ever saying I was obvtown in the one game I played with you.

    Please explain.


    The second is windward... after the initial votes on Ratchet stalled out.

    My overall conclusion: Conq feels very off to what I know of their town game from G6, and not in a good way.

    Conq posts a lot of questions but they are rarely followed up upon. A lot of them are clarifications he does nothing with, or defensive stuff. I don't think conq really cares about the answer.

    It's a long shot from the "kill immediately" conq I know from G6 where they dug into every phrase, every word and literally dug up games from years ago to look at wording.

    The overall feel I have is that they're looking for someone to safely park their vote on.

    ##Vote Conq
    I love you


    BTW I don't think you need meta to make this case work. I have only ever seen wolf him and meant to go back to it to check but I think this all solidifies my thinking, I'll do my own work on it too to verify but yh.

    my thoughts
    your post
    I love you
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#1187)
    Quote Originally Posted by Poyser (#1185)
    Early part is all defensive.
    nah

    Early part is all defensive.
    After that I feel like the windward - conq interaction feels kind of artificial:
    This is one of the first posts I can find that look like alignment solving (the others are largely defensive) but conq doesn't follow up on this for a long time. It's also not a vote on Ratchet, but certainly fans the flames.
    The second is windward... after the initial votes on Ratchet stalled out.
    Conq posts a lot of questions but they are rarely followed up upon. A lot of them are clarifications he does nothing with, or defensive stuff. I don't think conq really cares about the answer.

    All of this stands up without meta

    meta bolsters it
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#945)
    Town
    Guillo
    Poyser
    WindwardAway

    town lean
    Anne
    Sothys

    schrodingers moth
    moth

    wolf lean
    tigrarrarial
    Conq
    Dangerhaz

    wolf read
    Riccardo
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#1293)
    @Conq I've just gone through each and every one of windwards posts to check your suggestion against the evidence you bring in. I'll post it in a second

    been watching as games gone on.

    What do you make of the positive nature some people have attributed to it?

    Guillo-Neo-Poyser in particular

    I'm kinda weirded out by it because:
    1) I had to go validate:
    Winds progression on you
    How Winds been presenting themselves
    The relative composition of wolf to town reads, and, where Winds focus has been
    2) You provided no evidence from this game...but ppl were quick to sheep!

    I can see it in someone who's been ISO'ing Wind a bunch and focused there, but, I think its been quite hard for me to check (I'll reveal in next post)



    Re 1258 your response to me:
    PART 1
    DZ Question 1
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#1229)
    1) Moth has called out Wind a few times for being very cocky and confident. You say Windward as town "Expresses More Confidence in Her Town Game". I guess you see a difference in town!Windward saying "I'm really good" and windward here acting like they thing they're really good?
    Yeah, I earlier pointed out the example in this game where Windward, while overall appearing to be a confident player, downplayed her ability to make correct reads as Town. Here it is:

    Quote Originally Posted by WindwardAway (#200)
    I advanced as town and all I did was tunnel villagers :P
    Real talk though, I got pocketed by two wolves and townread the third lol
    If you're looking for accurate reads early in a mountainous game, it ain't me.
    Fair enough. From my evidence I compiled I had that quote pulled out. I dont think its hugely valid "in the whole"- she does talk up her town a fair bit.

    I take the philosophy though: "Scum tells only need to happen once or twice to be valid"- not consistently.


    PART 2
    DZ Question 2
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#1229)
    2) On your point- "2. Wolf!Windward Is Very Good at Pretending to Struggle With a Thought and Manufacturing a Progression That Appears Organic and Genuine"
    Your evidence does show this. I have town read her for exactly this in this game!
    But- I kinda see some of her stuff this game as alot more intense than this- check out my 1192
    I pull out a quote where she makes 8 different points in one paragraph! In your examples its only one or two.

    So - am I linking the two things correctly? Is the free flowing nature of her thoughts in this game what you are referring to?
    Do you think there's a difference between what you pull and what she has here?
    Kudos for the question, as this is precisely the thing I am grappling with and it's the right question to ask.

    So, I re-read the Windward quote that you pulled. Short answer is that I am uncertain if there is a difference, but I have some observations:

    (1) Ya know, one thing that struck me as Towny about Windward in G6 was that she had a lot of Town reads, and a lot of them went against thread consensus. CarsonGarden and Poyser were two examples from early Day 1. So compare that here. Read Windward's ISO here and you'll see that she focuses at the start on finding wolves, and doesn't seem to buck thread consensus to find Town. The quote you pull is an example of that, and I did not see anything comparable in the Town game I played with her.

    (2) Also, her reads here have been more derivative of what's happening in the thread. Take the quote you pulled. It is all about how the thread has treated Ratchet:

    "A wagon formed pretty fast on Ratchet,"..."What I didn't like was the number of players jumping to townread him too easily,"..."but it also dissolved extremely fast and at that point there were multiple discussions going on in the thread at the same time I was trying to have a back and forth with Ratchet in parallel with Poyser. Idk, to me it feels like if Ratchet is scum then there was another wolf in the thread at that point trying to steer attention away from him,"
    When I played with Town!Windward, I feel like she made reads despite what was happening on the thread, not based on what was happening in the thread.

    (3) I feel like Windward's style, as both Scum and Town, is to present her thoughts/fake thoughts as stream of conscious, free-flowing, internal struggles on the page. This is generally hard to fake, and she is good at both doing it naturally and faking it to appear natural, which makes her a strong Wolf (and strong Town!). So, the similarities in some of the organic/free flowing stuff is not meant to push her in the Wolf direction -- it is meant to say that tonal/stylistic reads about how free-flowing she is are actually NAI, in my opinion.

    (4) I'll grant you that Windward has some especially "organic-looking" free-flowing, thought process stuff in this game. I've seen that, and it goes beyond the one post you quoted. I recognize that. My main point in response is to say that I believe she has it in her wolf range to manufacture that, especially in a high-effort semi-final.
    /QUOTE]

    Town reads from 537:
    Poyser, moth, neopest, sothys as townreads
    I think Tilga and Guillo probably still townleans?
    (These come out in 270, 279, 293, 537)

    Do you think that is against thread consensus?
    I've a view!


    Final question before I post my long analysis of wind...

    Why aren't you voting wind?
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#1305)
    OK this is probs gunna be hard to follow.

    Context:
    Conq went back and checked a bunch of previous Windward games
    Conq provided analysis of those games, and, how w/v Windward behaves (with receipts)
    Conq did not provide analysis of where Windward displayed behaviours in this thread (I dont find this AI)


    Problem Statement for DZ
    I want to know if Conq's analysis is:
    a) Valid
    b) Fair
    c) Agreeable

    Approach
    Line up each of Conq's points, then, go through Winds ISO and find how much it all matches

    Analytical notes
    - Behavorial tells need to be pretty consistent & holistic as behaviour is holistic (e.g. "as town this person focuses on town reading"- your only going to get this in the hole, not from individual posts)
    - Tone tells need to be pretty consistent (but tone can change alot, and is hard to analyse as their are lots of varieties)
    - Scum tells can be pretty one off (people work to hide scum tells)

    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#1204)
    Windward Symposium

    I did my ISO dive on Windward. Here are my main three conclusions:

    When Windward is Wolf, she tends to downplay her own ability to make reads as Town!Windward, and she does not do this as Town.
    Much of the tonal, stylistic, and substantive things that have been leaning me townward on Windward are consistent with her Wolf play. She's a very effective wolf.
    Her treatment of my slot is very similar to how she treated a player who suspected her early in a mountainous game she won as scum (Frog in Plants Mountainous Poison).


    All of this is to say that I should not Town read Windward for the stylistic and tone elements that she is good at manufacturing, and her game lines up more with her Wolf game than her Town game.

    Things I learned from reading Windward's Wolf Games:

    1. Windward talks a lot about her Wolf meta when she is a Wolf.

    Examples from Wolf!Windward Games:

    If it is correct, I can also pretty much guarantee I’d just hellbus my own team
    I’ve been bussing less in recent games but I did earn a reputation as a hellbusser after my first few wolfgames because I got stuck bussing my partners multiple times and solowolfed and endgamed
    It’s a personal playstyle I guess and I don’t bus for no reason, but yeah
    If I had a completely potato team I would bus at least one of them just to make sure I looked good
    Personally I’d totally post something like that as a wolf
    I know lol it was a joke
    The thing I notice is that a lot of people read my alignment off my personality which is a terrible idea because I’ve gotten away with pocketing town as a wolf for that exact reason
    And people don’t stop to think about what I post or why I post it, because they only focus on the parts they like
    I’ve attempted to disband wagons on players that I scumread because the wagons formed so quickly that I thought it spewed them town
    2. Wolf!Windward Is Very Good at Pretending to Struggle With a Thought and Manufacturing a Progression That Appears Organic and Genuine

    Examples from Wolf!Windward Games:

    I had a reason for TRing Trochi but it got blown out of the water so they’re back to the sorting hat lol
    Well this was a productive lunch break
    I went from coming up with a spicy take to just backtracking it lmao
    I should just shut up
    I had a sudden realization about something and now I feel extremely dumb
    I remembered I was wrong in my last game about reading someone off their treatment of me.
    I was town ,and they were town, and I was dead convinced they were hedging by repeating multiple times that they townread me but that I kept posting an increasing number of wolfy things. And I encouraged a quickhammer on them because I’m loud and obnoxious enough that people listen to me even when I’m wrong.
    …so yeah, maybe my egocentric method of reading players off of their read on me is not as foolproof as it used to be.
    I’m also out of practice on making reads since I’ve more or less only randed wolf since last summer, and my confidence is completely unwarranted lol
    Gonna mull over this again overnight but I should probably get some sleep soon, any last questions?
    I think tonally she’s towny and other than that I don’t have a very strong opinion on her slot. I don’t think she’s made much of an impact on the game and could easily see her going UTR as a wolf. On the other hand, I don’t actively scumread her, so she’s in that weird position where she’s in my PoE for not having proven herself to be in my townreads, and I would be fine with a wagon here.
    3. Wolf!Windward Downplays Her Own Ability to Make Reads.

    Examples from Wolf!Windward Games:
    I will solve this game in my sleep
    and I will be completely wrong
    [in that prior game] i was $%#!ing wrong on all of my scumreads so my reads held no weight

    4. Wolf!Windward Uses Lots of "If I were Scum, I'd do this" WIFOM.

    Examples from Wolf!Windward Games:

    Also, let me ask you this - if you think I’m an active wolf, then why wouldn’t I have all the opportunity in the world to push an easier target?
    if i were a wolf, and the wagons were on T/T yesterday, why would i care where my vote went? it wouldn’t matter, i wouldn’t have to say much, and either of the wagons could flip without my having to lift a finger. i could just vote completely off the main wagons, or refuse to let the elimination rand because i’d be afraid it would spew them as T/T.
    Also, why would not trying to convince Frog of my reads be a pocket attempt? If Frog is town and I’m mafia, I would want to mislead them and convince them to push my agenda for me.
    5. Wolf!WIndward's Treatment of Frog's Slot in Plants Mountainous Reminds Me of Her Treatment of My Slot

    In that game, Frog suspected Windward Day 1, and Windward started off suspecting Windward. Then Windward went through a large introspection, and moved her read to null, and then town-sided, ending with this:

    Also I think now is the time I wanna say I feel somewhat better about Frog
    I like that they’ve been trying to see things fmpov, even if they scumread me, because it means I’m being listened to this wording actually sounds horrible now that I’ve written it out lmao
    Even if Frog wants to keep me in the PoE, that’s fine for resolution purposes I guess.
    Reading it back, knowing the alignments, you can see Windward's strategy to try to pocket Frog by going through this fake progression. I am feeling some echos of that here with respect to my slot.

    * * * * *

    Things I Know From Playing a With Town!Windward:


    1. Town!Windward mostly focuses on Town reads early in a game.

    Examples from Town!Windward:
    I realized it's weird to say I think Carson, Psycho and maybe Magoroth are all town, considering the latter two are voting Carson lol.
    So far I have the following as townleans:

    Carson
    Rasmus
    Psycho
    Poyzer
    ApoThau
    probably Magoroth

    Will focus on reading the others next
    Town!Windward Expresses More Confidence in Her Town Game.
    Tbh it's just on my mind since i just played live mafia for the first time in like six years lol
    My vigilante partner and I managed to shoot 4 out of 6 mafia so I'm fairly convinced I remember how the game is supposed to be played, and I'm kind of working off that when stating my assumptions here.
    Pardon me for butting in, but I've seen scum do this on D1 lol. And I've caught them for it.
    3. Town!Windward Says Things I Mindmeld With.

    This is harder to show through quotes, but let me just share my feelings on it. Town!Windward in G6 came out with early, against-thread-consensus, town reads that I completely agreed with (e.g., Carson, Poyser). And eventually reached a scum read that I agreed with (e.g., inawordyes). Here, I find myself disagreeing with many, if not most, of her takes. From my point of view, this adds another ping.

    TLDR: I think Windward is a Wolf because she treated my slot with an agenda (first trying to float the idea that I am scum if not blatantly obvious town and then trying to pocket me by changing her read, similar to how she treated Frog in another game), she keeps downplaying her Town game, which is consistent with what I've seen Wolf!Windward do and the opposite of what I've seen Town!Windward do, and the towny tone/style stuff she is quite skilled at manufacturing.



    Conq's wolf Winward traits
    1) Windward talks a lot about her Wolf meta when she is a Wolf
    Nah doesn't come up
    21, 25, and 47 are where I see it potentially come up but it feels to me more of a meeting of two old scum buddies than talking about meta
    NO DICE

    1) Windward talks a lot about her Wolf meta when she is a Wolf
    Yh I mean I find 161, 284, 282, 352, ad 795 as this
    655 is actually bad though

    That said- I recognise your point that your more saying Windward can appear towny via approach. So I think this is fine

    3) Wolf!Windward Downplays Her Own Ability to Make Reads.

    Does this in 322, 881, and 1254 (to an extent)
    She does to it in response to a question from you (322)
    Valid

    4) Wolf!Windward Uses Lots of "If I were Scum, I'd do this" WIFOM
    454. meh.
    maybe

    5) Wolf!WIndward's Treatment of Frog's Slot in Plants Mountainous Reminds Me of Her Treatment of My Slot
    (In that game, Frog suspected Windward Day 1, and Windward started off suspecting Windward. Then Windward went through a large introspection, and moved her read to null, and then town-sided, ending with this)


    665 scum read begins - targeted at Conq for not being towny enough
    777 starts walking back (no big introspection)- says conq still in poe in 795 and thats reinforced in 866
    1082 conq ends up a town lean
    1117- for some unbeknownst reason wind is wanting to read Conq as town. If I was town!Conq I’d be feeling pretty suss of conq and she is going the other way

    VALID AND ALSO KINDA JUST SCUMMY IN ISOLATION

    I really struggle to see how v!wind still v reads you.
    they've been wrong on your read (thinking it was pressure,) they've had this huge case based on meta and view it uncritically, and, just kinda are chill??

    CONCLUSION FROM WOLF TELLS
    I kinda see where you are coming from but its not hugely obvious and has holes.
    I think the worst bit isn't even meta related and just down to how windward treats you!!!


    Conq's t!windward meta

    1. Town!Windward mostly focuses on Town reads early in a game.
    Wolf reads - 148; 185; 372; 409 ; 433
    Town reads-
    270 (not explained)
    279 (not explained)
    293 (not explained)
    537 (6 town reads in one post)
    602 (in particular?)

    meh.6 town reads in a game of 15 is highly focused. but doing kinda naked town reads isn't what I call "focus"
    keen to hear more tbh

    jury out

    2) Town!Windward Expresses More Confidence in Her Town Game.

    There is some of this but not much.

    68- but not really
    322 confidence in townclear- not scum hunting
    602 (ish)


    Opposite of this- 200 maybe 218 1254

    I still see some confidence.

    a concern I have with this general tel though is im coming in to this game hugely dissatisfied with my recent reads. so my confidence is lower. if someone said to me "wow you are being less confident" I'd be like ... yh...im less confident because ive been sucking. so I kinda dont hold too much store in this?

    3) Town!Windward Says Things I Mindmeld With.

    Yeah I cant comment like you say!

    CONCLUSION FROM TOWN TELLS
    JURY OUT


    OVERALL CONCLUSION
    I think the general things you point out I need more evidence on- except the treatment of your slot which is p bad and hard to picture coming from town.

    I've not really liked how windward responded to your meta case; I remember sf2 when fighter did an invalid meta case on variance variance BLEW UP and thats what I'd expect with someone getting wrongly meta cased because its so easy to cherry pick etc. etc.

    So- I dont really know what to think. I wanna discuss it more, but, I think your work can easily come from a wolf given the lack of conclusivety of evidence. If there wasn't windward being weird about your slot id have called you wolf for how the evidence doesn't pile up.

    It helps that in reading wind I also pulled up and wrote this:
    THINGS:
1) Lots of p1 questions and chats with people I like- getting in
    2. She does a lot of “oh this person said this one thing that I town read them for” then never says what
    3. Lots and lots of questions
    4. Posts like 549 are getting unreadable
    5. I find the response to their being 7 1 vote wagons pretty bad (unvoting.) Doesn’t it make it worse? (629)
    6. Windward got to post 100 2hr 49 in to the game!!! lol
    7. I find 700 weird; i’m looking busy for the sake of being productive BUT hard defending someone?
    1. Another moment like number 2 (777) You never actually specify a post so its really hard to track back. In 866 calls out wagon shenanigans which is wtf
    8. Its really weird to me that wind thinks Conq’s vote is a pressure vote. Its kind of pretty much fancy OMGUS from Conq (OMGUS can be righht, and can be towny.) I dont get why Wind thinks this is a test?
    9. 955 is a funny question
    10. 1038 is super out the $%#!en blue. I think I get their reasoning though- 1066. Its kinda just believable that she’s just sitting there
    Getting tired so ceebs putting links in. my point is I just think there's so much there from windward that isn't that towny and is weird.

    I also just find pals acceptance of your case weird given lack of evidence

    meh
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#1307)
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#1305)
    OK this is probs gunna be hard to follow.

    Context:
    Conq went back and checked a bunch of previous Windward games
    Conq provided analysis of those games, and, how w/v Windward behaves (with receipts)
    Conq did not provide analysis of where Windward displayed behaviours in this thread (I dont find this AI)


    Problem Statement for DZ
    I want to know if Conq's analysis is:
    a) Valid
    b) Fair
    c) Agreeable

    Approach
    Line up each of Conq's points, then, go through Winds ISO and find how much it all matches

    Analytical notes
    - Behavorial tells need to be pretty consistent & holistic as behaviour is holistic (e.g. "as town this person focuses on town reading"- your only going to get this in the hole, not from individual posts)
    - Tone tells need to be pretty consistent (but tone can change alot, and is hard to analyse as their are lots of varieties)
    - Scum tells can be pretty one off (people work to hide scum tells)

    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#1204)
    Windward Symposium

    I did my ISO dive on Windward. Here are my main three conclusions:

    When Windward is Wolf, she tends to downplay her own ability to make reads as Town!Windward, and she does not do this as Town.
    Much of the tonal, stylistic, and substantive things that have been leaning me townward on Windward are consistent with her Wolf play. She's a very effective wolf.
    Her treatment of my slot is very similar to how she treated a player who suspected her early in a mountainous game she won as scum (Frog in Plants Mountainous Poison).


    All of this is to say that I should not Town read Windward for the stylistic and tone elements that she is good at manufacturing, and her game lines up more with her Wolf game than her Town game.

    Things I learned from reading Windward's Wolf Games:

    1. Windward talks a lot about her Wolf meta when she is a Wolf.

    Examples from Wolf!Windward Games:


    Personally I’d totally post something like that as a wolf
    I know lol it was a joke
    The thing I notice is that a lot of people read my alignment off my personality which is a terrible idea because I’ve gotten away with pocketing town as a wolf for that exact reason
    And people don’t stop to think about what I post or why I post it, because they only focus on the parts they like
    I’ve attempted to disband wagons on players that I scumread because the wagons formed so quickly that I thought it spewed them town

    2. Wolf!Windward Is Very Good at Pretending to Struggle With a Thought and Manufacturing a Progression That Appears Organic and Genuine

    Examples from Wolf!Windward Games:

    I had a reason for TRing Trochi but it got blown out of the water so they’re back to the sorting hat lol
    Well this was a productive lunch break
    I went from coming up with a spicy take to just backtracking it lmao
    I should just shut up
    I had a sudden realization about something and now I feel extremely dumb
    I remembered I was wrong in my last game about reading someone off their treatment of me.
    I was town ,and they were town, and I was dead convinced they were hedging by repeating multiple times that they townread me but that I kept posting an increasing number of wolfy things. And I encouraged a quickhammer on them because I’m loud and obnoxious enough that people listen to me even when I’m wrong.
    …so yeah, maybe my egocentric method of reading players off of their read on me is not as foolproof as it used to be.
    I’m also out of practice on making reads since I’ve more or less only randed wolf since last summer, and my confidence is completely unwarranted lol
    Gonna mull over this again overnight but I should probably get some sleep soon, any last questions?
    I think tonally she’s towny and other than that I don’t have a very strong opinion on her slot. I don’t think she’s made much of an impact on the game and could easily see her going UTR as a wolf. On the other hand, I don’t actively scumread her, so she’s in that weird position where she’s in my PoE for not having proven herself to be in my townreads, and I would be fine with a wagon here.

    3. Wolf!Windward Downplays Her Own Ability to Make Reads.

    Examples from Wolf!Windward Games:
    I will solve this game in my sleep
    and I will be completely wrong
    [in that prior game] i was $%#!ing wrong on all of my scumreads so my reads held no weight


    4. Wolf!Windward Uses Lots of "If I were Scum, I'd do this" WIFOM.

    Examples from Wolf!Windward Games:

    Also, let me ask you this - if you think I’m an active wolf, then why wouldn’t I have all the opportunity in the world to push an easier target?
    if i were a wolf, and the wagons were on T/T yesterday, why would i care where my vote went? it wouldn’t matter, i wouldn’t have to say much, and either of the wagons could flip without my having to lift a finger. i could just vote completely off the main wagons, or refuse to let the elimination rand because i’d be afraid it would spew them as T/T.
    Also, why would not trying to convince Frog of my reads be a pocket attempt? If Frog is town and I’m mafia, I would want to mislead them and convince them to push my agenda for me.

    5. Wolf!WIndward's Treatment of Frog's Slot in Plants Mountainous Reminds Me of Her Treatment of My Slot

    In that game, Frog suspected Windward Day 1, and Windward started off suspecting Windward. Then Windward went through a large introspection, and moved her read to null, and then town-sided, ending with this:

    Also I think now is the time I wanna say I feel somewhat better about Frog
    I like that they’ve been trying to see things fmpov, even if they scumread me, because it means I’m being listened to this wording actually sounds horrible now that I’ve written it out lmao
    Even if Frog wants to keep me in the PoE, that’s fine for resolution purposes I guess.

    Reading it back, knowing the alignments, you can see Windward's strategy to try to pocket Frog by going through this fake progression. I am feeling some echos of that here with respect to my slot.

    * * * * *

    Things I Know From Playing a With Town!Windward:


    1. Town!Windward mostly focuses on Town reads early in a game.

    Examples from Town!Windward:
    I realized it's weird to say I think Carson, Psycho and maybe Magoroth are all town, considering the latter two are voting Carson lol.
    So far I have the following as townleans:

    Carson
    Rasmus
    Psycho
    Poyzer
    ApoThau
    probably Magoroth

    Will focus on reading the others next

    Town!Windward Expresses More Confidence in Her Town Game.
    Tbh it's just on my mind since i just played live mafia for the first time in like six years lol
    My vigilante partner and I managed to shoot 4 out of 6 mafia so I'm fairly convinced I remember how the game is supposed to be played, and I'm kind of working off that when stating my assumptions here.
    Pardon me for butting in, but I've seen scum do this on D1 lol. And I've caught them for it.

    3. Town!Windward Says Things I Mindmeld With.

    This is harder to show through quotes, but let me just share my feelings on it. Town!Windward in G6 came out with early, against-thread-consensus, town reads that I completely agreed with (e.g., Carson, Poyser). And eventually reached a scum read that I agreed with (e.g., inawordyes). Here, I find myself disagreeing with many, if not most, of her takes. From my point of view, this adds another ping.

    TLDR: I think Windward is a Wolf because she treated my slot with an agenda (first trying to float the idea that I am scum if not blatantly obvious town and then trying to pocket me by changing her read, similar to how she treated Frog in another game), she keeps downplaying her Town game, which is consistent with what I've seen Wolf!Windward do and the opposite of what I've seen Town!Windward do, and the towny tone/style stuff she is quite skilled at manufacturing.



    Conq's wolf Winward traits
    1) Windward talks a lot about her Wolf meta when she is a Wolf
    Nah doesn't come up
    21, 25, and 47 are where I see it potentially come up but it feels to me more of a meeting of two old scum buddies than talking about meta
    NO DICE

    1) Windward talks a lot about her Wolf meta when she is a Wolf
    Yh I mean I find 161, 284, 282, 352, ad 795 as this
    655 is actually bad though

    That said- I recognise your point that your more saying Windward can appear towny via approach. So I think this is fine

    3) Wolf!Windward Downplays Her Own Ability to Make Reads.

    Does this in 322, 881, and 1254 (to an extent)
    She does to it in response to a question from you (322)
    Valid

    4) Wolf!Windward Uses Lots of "If I were Scum, I'd do this" WIFOM
    454. meh.
    maybe

    5) Wolf!WIndward's Treatment of Frog's Slot in Plants Mountainous Reminds Me of Her Treatment of My Slot
    (In that game, Frog suspected Windward Day 1, and Windward started off suspecting Windward. Then Windward went through a large introspection, and moved her read to null, and then town-sided, ending with this)


    665 scum read begins - targeted at Conq for not being towny enough
    777 starts walking back (no big introspection)- says conq still in poe in 795 and thats reinforced in 866
    1082 conq ends up a town lean
    1117- for some unbeknownst reason wind is wanting to read Conq as town. If I was town!Conq I’d be feeling pretty suss of conq and she is going the other way

    VALID AND ALSO KINDA JUST SCUMMY IN ISOLATION

    I really struggle to see how v!wind still v reads you.
    they've been wrong on your read (thinking it was pressure,) they've had this huge case based on meta and view it uncritically, and, just kinda are chill??

    CONCLUSION FROM WOLF TELLS
    I kinda see where you are coming from but its not hugely obvious and has holes.
    I think the worst bit isn't even meta related and just down to how windward treats you!!!


    Conq's t!windward meta

    1. Town!Windward mostly focuses on Town reads early in a game.
    Wolf reads - 148; 185; 372; 409 ; 433
    Town reads-
    270 (not explained)
    279 (not explained)
    293 (not explained)
    537 (6 town reads in one post)
    602 (in particular?)

    meh.6 town reads in a game of 15 is highly focused. but doing kinda naked town reads isn't what I call "focus"
    keen to hear more tbh

    jury out

    2) Town!Windward Expresses More Confidence in Her Town Game.

    There is some of this but not much.

    68- but not really
    322 confidence in townclear- not scum hunting
    602 (ish)


    Opposite of this- 200 maybe 218 1254

    I still see some confidence.

    a concern I have with this general tel though is im coming in to this game hugely dissatisfied with my recent reads. so my confidence is lower. if someone said to me "wow you are being less confident" I'd be like ... yh...im less confident because ive been sucking. so I kinda dont hold too much store in this?

    3) Town!Windward Says Things I Mindmeld With.

    Yeah I cant comment like you say!

    CONCLUSION FROM TOWN TELLS
    JURY OUT


    OVERALL CONCLUSION
    I think the general things you point out I need more evidence on- except the treatment of your slot which is p bad and hard to picture coming from town.

    I've not really liked how windward responded to your meta case; I remember sf2 when fighter did an invalid meta case on variance variance BLEW UP and thats what I'd expect with someone getting wrongly meta cased because its so easy to cherry pick etc. etc.

    So- I dont really know what to think. I wanna discuss it more, but, I think your work can easily come from a wolf given the lack of conclusivety of evidence. If there wasn't windward being weird about your slot id have called you wolf for how the evidence doesn't pile up.

    It helps that in reading wind I also pulled up and wrote this:
    THINGS:
1) Lots of p1 questions and chats with people I like- getting in
    2. She does a lot of “oh this person said this one thing that I town read them for” then never says what
    3. Lots and lots of questions
    4. Posts like 549 are getting unreadable
    5. I find the response to their being 7 1 vote wagons pretty bad (unvoting.) Doesn’t it make it worse? (629)
    6. Windward got to post 100 2hr 49 in to the game!!! lol
    7. I find 700 weird; i’m looking busy for the sake of being productive BUT hard defending someone?
    1. Another moment like number 2 (777) You never actually specify a post so its really hard to track back. In 866 calls out wagon shenanigans which is wtf
    8. Its really weird to me that wind thinks Conq’s vote is a pressure vote. Its kind of pretty much fancy OMGUS from Conq (OMGUS can be righht, and can be towny.) I dont get why Wind thinks this is a test?
    9. 955 is a funny question
    10. 1038 is super out the $%#!en blue. I think I get their reasoning though- 1066. Its kinda just believable that she’s just sitting there
    Getting tired so ceebs putting links in. my point is I just think there's so much there from windward that isn't that towny and is weird.

    I also just find pals acceptance of your case weird given lack of evidence

    meh
    god this is unreadable.

    In summary:
    - Conq; you never made a case. you pulled meta analysis and implied things that didn't happen and there isn't evidence of in thread
    - Conq; you make a really good point about winds treatment of you
    - Neo/Guillo; you look really bad for blindly accepting it UNLESS you are just focusing on the approach to reads which I think you do mention Neo
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#1312)
    ##Vote neopest
    ##Vote Conq
    ##Vote WindwardAway

    Has between 1 and 2 wolves.

    Really need to work out how and then you all to understand why I think this

    I think I'll struggle with second part lololol
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#1407)
    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#1394)
    Quote Originally Posted by Yami Fenrir (#1391)
    I think this is roughly where I am rn too.
    @Yami Fenrir and @DoctorZeus, what is it about the Conq/Windward interaction that you think makes it unlikely to be V-V? I think that’s a hard conclusion to draw and so I’m surprised to see you both draw it and without an explanation that I can see.

    Also @Yami, I am interested to hear your response to my response to your case on me when you have a chance.
    Wassup @Conq do you ever sleep?!

    Opening response: where I stand on your case + Wind
    1352 is where my heads at with your case after your initial response to me. I'd like to apologise because yh I completely misread what you were actually saying.

    But- when I look at all the work, I don't really see huge amounts that I find that convincing e.g "1. Windward talks a lot about her Wolf meta when she is a Wolf."

    She doesn't in this game!! I didn't find any evidence of this.

    Of the rest there's some maybes and Jurys out stuff- i.e. your big meta dive and my subsequent analysis makes me see the case as quite limited. I think the case is that damning - as I see it its:

    My Windward wolf case: summarised
    Windward is a wolf because of their treatment of Conq.
    Its inherently wolfy and matches how she treats people when wolf
    So- I think that that single point is actually quite good and I have her in poe for it.

    My hesitation, is that when I read her ISO I also found myself really liking her long meandering points & the way she's been "in" the game (i.e. seemingly independently on her own just hovering in the tthread.) This is a tone and mindset thing....which I need to decide whether or not it really matters given your point about her wolf game.

    Request 1: I guess- can you respond to 1352? You said there were a bunch of things you think I misrepresented. Feels like me and you are probably now the windward experts in the game.

    I think it would be good for us to explore this more. I think chatting will help us work out each other and her. Neither of us have many posts left though

    Conq-Wind not w-w

    If you hadn't pulled the meta case I wouldn't have noticed how they treated you and would have treated them as lock town. I think you've been the thrust behind the wagon- others have kinda sussed her bit around her but I think she wasn't really gunna be wagoned properly till you came along. so I don't think you are w/w (especially given something I've been thinking about how wolves act in these games.)

    Conq-Wind v-v

    When I said you weren't v-v it was when I'd misunderstood your post completely.

    Thinking on it more I think its possible? But I have both of you in my POE now so it might be true I'd need to think about it more

    Conq

    So - in full fairness I need to reiterate where I am with you. After you take away the bits I dont find persuasive in your case I think we're left with what I said above:

    Windward case: summarised
    Windward is a wolf because of their treatment of Conq.
    Its inherently wolfy and matches how she treats people when wolf
    Question 3: Is that right?

    If so- I go back to my reasons to scum read you:
    - I think early in the game you didn't really do anything of impact despite having a major presence
    - Your questions and follow ups weren't intrinsically towny or that solvey
    - You've done some really weird stuff that I just don't follow (but which I get laughed at for)
    - outside of the wind case, I dont think you've got that broad a world view. your focused on your case and peoples reactions to it

    going back- your treatment of wind has been curious too, feels like your case has evolved but is generally meta based.

    Question 4: Can you talk about how your read on Wind has evolved?

    To close off- I have this perception that you've got quite a limited world view, where your responses have been focused on your cases + ppl scum reading you. But rereading your iso I dont think thats that fair.

    Question 5: Are you gunna do a more expanded read list with answers? It would help me resolve you


    18 separate times I do it today:

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#2316)
    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#2114)
    Note about Moth now that Poyser flipped

    Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Moth was the first person to state a town read of Poyser in the thread. Here:

    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#267)
    poyser is insanely town by the way
    The Poyser flip does not clear moth, by any means, but I think it makes it more likely Moth is Town. At the time Moth made this read, I felt the same way about Poyser, and it helped that thought surface in my brain. Like, I had that feeling subconsciously, and Moth declaring it so stridently helped it surface.

    I think a Wolf is more likely to dish out a town read like this on someone who has already been getting town read.
    @Conq I think this read is quite risky!!

    I think when ppl are really towny in thread wolves are also as likely to notice it and are just as likely to say it. we found wolves doing it in a turbo this morning (I know turbo doesn't = normal game) but I think this is quite stretchy
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#2340)
    Quote Originally Posted by Vernon (#2335)
    @Zeus you are a Pro Player, one of the Big 5! You're a smart guy, don't try and downplay it because ole' Vern doesn't fall for the pity card my comrade

    You're as scummy as the sky is blue and you're hanging on to the cliff with one hand and I'm slowly crunching down on your fingers... one .... by one.... by one.

    Tell me my friend. When you look at Moth, Conq, and Neopest, what do you see? In detail please. Love to know your thoughts on these brothers and sisters of ours and where they stand in your holy bible of good versus evil.
    your talking about a game when I got snowed Vernon! you 3 beat us!

    here are my most recent stats on DZ account:


    but anyway.

    I quite like moth. Neo made a good post summarising a bunch of reasons to town read him that resonated. I personally liked his eod, especaiiy when he was like "I'm the king! I'm going to finals" I thought was funny in a towny way. I liked his mechanism where he seemed to be pushing ppl who hadn't towned up to town.

    Conq I wolf read for a variety of different reasons BUT I'm gunna just think lots more about it. I think they've done some weird stuff that jars with me.
    I started off wolf reading him because I thought he was just "there" asking a bunch of questions which I didntn think went anywhere.
    I think the whole wind case was a whole lot of random evidence then one good point which had me conflicted. it kinda reminded me of phighter on variance a bit tbh and he was town.
    I think the worst part is the lack of towniness though. I've found reasons and things I can call back to most slots where I've found them towny


    Neo I think has made some reaaaally good points and cases. I found the way they snapped and went off at me really towny tbh because I think she's a good person and to me it read like real frustration...and I feel wolf!Neopest would at that point like just realise she can leave me to be me, and bury it for me later.
    I like how she seemed really hesitant to wolf read me despite being annoyed at me; in two recent town games (mash where I was wolf, and cats v dogs when town) she was town twice and both times called me out for ridiculous posts/logic in a frustrated way. this kinda fits that.

    I'm finding a constant worry over some of the stuff she does though. ppl were town reading her yesterday for "good solving" but I'm like nah thats why we town read her in our semis, not again.
    I also have things that have niggled me


    Why do you care about these three?
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#2349)
    Quote Originally Posted by Vernon (#2347)
    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#2343)
    Nice job on this. But the similarities between Whirlwind's previous game as scum and hypothetically this game as scum are still far and wide. The examples you provided were plentiful, but at the end of your argument, there were very few to no similarities at all.

    If I read your post again under the lens of YOU hypothetically being mafia, it reads much more clearly for me, especially seeing how little similarities you pointed out at the end.

    vernon smart tbh


    I;m going bed

    laters
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#2350)
    ##Vote Conq
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#2446)
    @Conq that til thing is a decent point too because I think it completely misses how ppl were sussing you yesterday (me in particular)

    I do kinda remember someone saying til just felt disconnected last game too??

    If they're scum why do you think they are protecting you?
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#2549)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#2545)
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#2542)
    twas you yes sorry!!

    I meant specifically yesterday, you go on this journey:


    ##Vote DoctorZeus

    I no longer think Wind is scum and i still believe Conq is town and i townread DoctorZeus and Neopest as well.

    I still scum read Ratchet and moth. I believe Ricardo is outed wolf and Bellsbells who posted a read pointings townie things about me but PoEing me because i am doing scum theater with Neopest and then supporting Neopest on her push on DoctorZeus for townreading me is ahady as hell. Not to mention that he said that what DoctorZeus pointed about my meta is not AI when they have never ever played with me is utterly and disgustingly scummy.

    I get that that might not be consistent in to today


    btw I didn't scum read you for leaving (or even doubt you left), I found it noticeable you left with your vote on someone who was never gunna go over (Ratchet.)

    But- I think it can work both ways and guessing to much from it is WIFOMy.

    Lvl 1 it is more scummy than towny to vote a vanity wagon- you avoid any of the implications from flips and people are left doing this (WIFOMing.)

    That said I think this wolf case is reliant on a few things that we just can't know like-
    - How active could your wolf friends be?
    - Were there any wolves in the firing line? if so, how would you look if they were the lunch?

    So I dont want to draw conclusions- I want to know why you did it.

    And you explained it around just voting your strongest scum rad and thats believable.

    any more conjecture is random guessing until we see more flips. that doesn't stop it being of note though!


    Re my spoiler read
    I still don't think its as bad as everyone made out

    But like some other things its just one data point.
    I think conq's been generally scummy, been pushing him all day (and I pushed him yesterday too for more than just the spoiler thing!!!)


    I went back to my first page to count how many times I scum read conq- and found this!!

    Ok who the hell is Anne

    oops I will stop using ppl's alts





    I find Conq and moth's tone on opening pages the most fake fwiw. Both of them seem to be trying real hard to be on ppls good sides and appear reasonable and positive without being like free flowy.

    I cc someone like windward who's approach has been actual positive and inquisitive without seeming fake. btw have light town lean on windward for this exact thing, have liked the takes they've been making + why/how they are making them

    which I think given I bloody love power wolfing would be unlikely given the rest of your team!

    But I on my first 50 posts there are like 10 independent moments where I wolf read conq (im not including the conversations over the same point.)

    On page 2 there's a bunch more.

    He's the player I've focused on most.

    You've modded at least 4 games where I'm a wolf- have I ever been like this? Is it characteristic within the play style of mine you know?
    Admittedly, no. That fits more with your town meta.

    I think that this game is unlocked by flipping moth or Conq today.

    Who do you wanna go for? If EoD was in 5 minutes, who'd you park on?

    Conq.

    there's more stuff that I've found weird that I keep finding when I look back.

    he suppppppper buddied up to Neo earlier in what looked like a pocket attempt.
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#2566)
    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#2563)
    Yami’s line of thought:

    Yami point 1: The whole thread is talking about Conq, moth, and DZ, so we have to chop one or else we’ll just be back to that POE tomorrow.

    (That’s wrong factually, and infuriating, by the way)

    Yami point 2: that’s why Conq casing Windward and Tilga is so scummy!

    Excuse me?

    Please spell this logic out. I can’t even follow the assumptions you are making.

    Why is it just so scummy that I am pushing on Windward/Tilga?

    Please put forth some effort so we can all understand your point.
    I scum read you, and I endorse this message.
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#2705)
    BTW there's another reason that I think Conq is mafia that I'm gunna struggle to show because its Friday, its 7pm, which means its boozing time but:

    I feel he's basically delay-changing his behaviour whenever he gets suss'd be people for reasons.

    he waits a bit, then, does the opposite of what he was suss'd for.


    - I suss'd him for being a passenger (see the rose-wolf post thing) and then 5 hours later he had this huge wall post
    - Guillo suss'd him for not sussing me...then a few hours later he suss'd him

    I feel its just happened alot but other than that I can't pick hings from memory so maybe I'm just misremembering. but I definitely know those two things happened and think its a pattern.
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#2724)
    Quote Originally Posted by Conq (#2718)
    I'm a lawyer too. Maybe that explains it if you're Town. But, god, you're infuriating to me this game.
    yh I'm a creative maybe thats the issue!

    But either way I've just said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#2707)
    I town read Sothys-Neo-ratchet for three sets of very emotional responses to whats been happening in the game.

    Of those three I think Neo's & Ratchet's came from the towniest mindset

    With Sothys I think its definitely plausible that they were just a wolf getting pounded and got really pissed off, whereas, the other two really just blew up in ways that only served to benefit town imo.

    I still have my legacy sothys lost town read from d1 and literally remember nothing from them today

    Then you come back at me with a big emotional response!!

    if this is real and you are town then I'm sorry. I am pretty frustrating at times!! I infuriated Generico in our lovers chat by refusing to buddy him.

    on the flip side is I've asked you a few of questions in response to your points- and- I've not seen you respond. In some of them I've tried to explain my behaviour/udnerstand your points

    2449, 2446, 2470 (but with no @), and 1407 from my quick check.

    I can understand not resounding to 1407 because you did say "yh im gunna go sleep" and then came back way later.

    but some of these are today- and me legimitaley trying to engage you.

    and its fair to say your missing some, because you do respond to like 2316 so I've not used this before.

    My attempt here is to show you- I've been trying to work with you to understand more because I can see you'd be valuable town. I've jumped the gun on your big case yesterday (and can see how that can be super frustrating for you if your town) but I'm trying to work you out !! and I'm not seeing stuff I like!!
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#2725)
    To be clear conq- all that stuff on the bottom about not responding me is not the reason I suss you

    I have other reasons and that is me trying to find out more and you not helping
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#2749)
    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#2732)
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#2705)
    BTW there's another reason that I think Conq is mafia that I'm gunna struggle to show because its Friday, its 7pm, which means its boozing time but:

    I feel he's basically delay-changing his behaviour whenever he gets suss'd be people for reasons.

    he waits a bit, then, does the opposite of what he was suss'd for.


    - I suss'd him for being a passenger (see the rose-wolf post thing) and then 5 hours later he had this huge wall post
    - Guillo suss'd him for not sussing me...then a few hours later he suss'd him

    I feel its just happened alot but other than that I can't pick hings from memory so maybe I'm just misremembering. but I definitely know those two things happened and think its a pattern.
    this stuff
    2293, 2296, 2299, 2306, 2322 all happened 5 hours ago.

    then a bunch of times go by and in that time I tried to engage with him on his cases to understand more.

    then you come back and he responds wolf reading me here: 2626 and then 2706.




    Then there's yesterday where 776 is an example of the suss Conq was getting for not being directive/solvey enough. He then comes back with the giant case on Windward including loads of analysis.



    Oh and actually its a similar but different thing.

    But- earlier on moth was really defeatist today, and people town read him for it.

    Then conq posts things that reminded me of it- its not as close as the earlier things but- 2150 reminds me of it.

    So like I know this isn't a slam dunk and there are many many reasons for all those things to have happened including coincidence and its as WIFOM'y as the rest of everyones solving today.

    but I see a pattern
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#3014)
    GTH solve for me would be:
    Conq-Vernon-Dangerhaz

    If I'm wrong I'd put in Til + Wind first because:
    - Tils EOD sucked (bleh vote thing) but not paired with Conq AND im not engaged in their posts
    - Wind because of how they treat Conq + thunder domes more than anything else. not ww with conq.
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#3096)
    BUT

    Vernon makes post like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vernon (#2918)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tilgarial (#2913)
    IDK how much you read, so @Vernon
    I read this.

    I feel very strongly about my thoughts on who the wolves are, so I didn't have anything to add to that.

    Also I have no idea what a thunderdome is but I feel like Conq is still grasping for straws

    Which is like the main reason in my pyramid of reasons to vote Conq.

    So I think they are pseudo difference checked
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#3108)
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#2749)
    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#2732)
    this stuff
    2293, 2296, 2299, 2306, 2322 all happened 5 hours ago.

    then a bunch of times go by and in that time I tried to engage with him on his cases to understand more.

    then you come back and he responds wolf reading me here: 2626 and then 2706.




    Then there's yesterday where 776 is an example of the suss Conq was getting for not being directive/solvey enough. He then comes back with the giant case on Windward including loads of analysis.



    Oh and actually its a similar but different thing.

    But- earlier on moth was really defeatist today, and people town read him for it.

    Then conq posts things that reminded me of it- its not as close as the earlier things but- 2150 reminds me of it.

    So like I know this isn't a slam dunk and there are many many reasons for all those things to have happened including coincidence and its as WIFOM'y as the rest of everyones solving today.

    but I see a pattern
    Also @Guillotina I've seen this pattern from Conq- ppl suss him heavily for certain things and he doesn't change stance on them during the moment, or, he see's people being town read for things.

    Then hours later if he was wolf read for something he flips his read, or, he starts displaying the behaviours of the town read person who was called out as towny.


    I think its the most conspiracy/conf bias potential reason to have for wolf guillo, and, even if he's town maybe he's just over consciously playing his attempts to look towny (e.g. Quick in Grandpas first computer) but I thought it worth raising
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#3165)
    conq-vernon are where my vote will go. will decide where as review eod- atm more likely vern but its a bit of a coin flip. if conq ends up being town his WIM will benefit town alot more than Vernon given Vernon is less willing to read thread.

    If these two die off, I dunno but I've been clear where my head is at

    I want ppl to read my dangerhaz critique. I think his tone & analysis look good surface level but approach is very within wolf worlds.

    In these posts I:
    - Make cases on conq
    - Actively engage people to try and analyse my takes
    - Actively push people to read my takes
    - Actively push conq to respond to my takes



    I do this from the start of d1
    I do not let up


    the idea we're connected if you read my posts is vvvvv strange to me
    Yay but when i engaged directly with you and asked you to vommit with me to gotm moth and Conq as main wagons, you laughed it off and went for Vernon. Like you clearly have more reasons to believe Conq is scum but you rather go for Vernom.
  25. Sticky: Game Thread Oh then let’s get that wagon going. Conq I...

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#3372)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3365)
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#3358)
    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#3352)
    @DoctorZeus why do you think Vernon is the best elim today? you see everyone wilding out in the thread and that's where you land?
    I'm on vernon or conq

    I wanted to get ppl actually scum reading vernon and stopping giving him a default town read because of tone and meta and review his scummy posts


    if I had a peek id peek dangerhaz
    But you have been avoiding to actually commit to Conq though.
    I pushed him all of d1, n most of yesterday. it really annoyed him.

    I sent you that theory I had about him adapting n stuff

    ive done a bunch
    Oh then let’s get that wagon going.

    ##Vote Conq

    I want moth but if not moth i’ll settle for Conq.
  26. Sticky: Game Thread But you have been avoiding to actually commit to...

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus (#3358)
    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#3352)
    @DoctorZeus why do you think Vernon is the best elim today? you see everyone wilding out in the thread and that's where you land?
    I'm on vernon or conq

    I wanted to get ppl actually scum reading vernon and stopping giving him a default town read because of tone and meta and review his scummy posts


    if I had a peek id peek dangerhaz
    But you have been avoiding to actually commit to Conq though.
  27. Sticky: Game Thread No, im thinking that maybe Moth is scum with wind...

    Quote Originally Posted by HellsBells (#3345)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3337)
    Quote Originally Posted by HellsBells (#3335)
    @Guillotina, forgive me if you explained this already further upthread, it's 9 am, I'm not a morning person and the coffee ain't workin for me (haha hi specchat), but why are you voting Wind over moth again?
    Because moth is voting her after faking not noticing that Conq snipe voted him on day 1 to save him which teeks of an anti-spew move. If moth is scum, i thought well, it does not look like a move i’d try to do to distance myself from a partner but to associate him with me, because right at this time is when those kind of unnatural plays are noticeable.
    Okay so are you trying to say that Moth/Conq/Wind is still a viable trio here, and that Moth is trying to associate with Wind by voting her?
    No, im thinking that maybe Moth is scum with wind trying to make Conq look bad, maybe.
  28. Sticky: Game Thread Do you townread me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yami Fenrir (#3341)
    I don't follow the logic there guilli
    Do you townread me?
  29. Sticky: Game Thread Because moth is voting her after faking not...

    Quote Originally Posted by HellsBells (#3335)
    @Guillotina, forgive me if you explained this already further upthread, it's 9 am, I'm not a morning person and the coffee ain't workin for me (haha hi specchat), but why are you voting Wind over moth again?
    Because moth is voting her after faking not noticing that Conq snipe voted him on day 1 to save him which teeks of an anti-spew move. If moth is scum, i thought well, it does not look like a move i’d try to do to distance myself from a partner but to associate him with me, because right at this time is when those kind of unnatural plays are noticeable.
  30. Sticky: Game Thread This is correct and i dont think they both play...

    Quote Originally Posted by HellsBells (#3325)
    Tbh I am having a harder time thinking that Wind and Conq could be w/w together after the thunderdome, mostly because there's a way to sell that as two wolves pretending to fight to the death and that fiasco was not it. Unless the plan was to make Windward look way worse than she already did, that doesn't seem likely to me. Like, if two wolves were doing that, I feel like they'd be fighting a lot harder to make themselves both look like put-upon, self-righteous town, right? Windward just giving up does not feel like we're observing something staged between them. So I dunno. I think I could vote Wind out today and see how she flips.
    This is correct and i dont think they both play aggressor/victim as a plot to make one look unaligned because that is very risky.
    But… although it is not probable, there is that small possibility.

    I.e. Have you seen a wolf blocking their scum partner day kill openly in the thread?

    I saw that in a game and i townread him for it! Scum won that game. After game i was not even mad that we lost because that gambit was brilliant!
  31. Sticky: Game Thread Yah and so are you! And Hells! Whom ive been...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yami Fenrir (#3324)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3322)
    Oh look! Moth and Conq’s wagons dissipated close to EoD completely!
    Yeah this is kind of out of left field ngl.

    Think I'll be going back to voting one of the two.

    That said, aren't you part of the switchers? Lol
    Yah and so are you! And Hells! Whom ive been mindmelding with. What’s happening! We getting bored or what?
  32. Sticky: Game Thread Oh look! Moth and Conq’s wagons dissipated close...

    Oh look! Moth and Conq’s wagons dissipated close to EoD completely!
  33. Sticky: Game Thread sothys do you dip out of the thread for long...

    @sothys do you dip out of the thread for long periods of time as a wolf?
  34. Sticky: Game Thread Vernon, i asked you respectfully to not call me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vernon (#3306)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3304)
    Actually yah! Let’s vote Windward!

    ##Vote WindwardAway
    Guilla 😔
    Vernon, i asked you respectfully to not call me Guilla, dont make me ask you not respectfully.
  35. Sticky: Game Thread Hey if scum wants to help us narrow the PoE im...

    Quote Originally Posted by sothys (#3256)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3243)
    Like Sorhy's train of thought does not make any sense at all.

    If i was scum here. I'd try to push over the people that know me. Like if i was scum here and Neopest and DoctorZeus were both town, i would have found now a way to make them look sus and chop them, i would have night killed one of them because if there is something im most uncomfortable with is playing with people that know me well because i know im under their spotlight. Town!DoctorZeus would have gone over easily yesterday if i was scum when he was CC to Windward yesterday, i would have went to the bathroom in my training, find a random reason to vote DoctorZeus and chop him.

    Oh and i would have drown out loud voices with mine, i would not be campaigning for cooperation and prodding LHFs and low posters to post and most importantly, i would have definitely taken advantage of that stupid thunderdome and if my partner was in it i would have hellbussed him for maximum cred.

    That is the kind of wolf guillo you'd expect.

    I wouldnt be campaigning to resolve suspected wagons.

    scum!anyone would love to kill town!moth because then all votes are just blank and there is very litle info, maybe in the voting pattern, but a voting pattern between two town wagons says very litle still, except for formation, which especially in moths case, since it formed so quickly is allready there, and i dare say moth will flip during this game no matter what.
    Hey if scum wants to help us narrow the PoE im all in for it! Lol
    Scum!anyone wanting to kill town!moth today are bad at mafia but im not here to give them tips.
  36. Sticky: Game Thread Actually yah! Let’s vote Windward! ...

    Actually yah! Let’s vote Windward!

    ##Vote WindwardAway
  37. Sticky: Game Thread I dont believe that you scum read me and not see...

    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#3287)
    wait conq didnt vote me at eod 1
    ##Vote WindwardAway
    I dont believe that you scum read me and not see that i believe the reason i believe you and Conq are associated is because he snipe voted Ricardo at the last minute to save you. You telling me you just found out this now?
  38. Sticky: Game Thread Oh… oops, my bad

    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#3273)
    Guillo read the quotes
    I was talking to sothy not you
    Oh… oops, my bad
  39. Sticky: Game Thread How do you dare to compare with Sothy? This is...

    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#3267)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3263)
    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#3258)
    Quote Originally Posted by sothys (#3256)
    I dont know you, so i dont expect anything from you.
    getting to know you through this game, i am certain that you are very very competent.
    you have slight "look down my nose" syndrome towards people who dont see the world your way. and instantly become rather condecending towards them. Your point would come through better if you didnt. But im learning to read through it.

    scum!anyone would love to kill town!moth because then all votes are just blank and there is very litle info, maybe in the voting pattern, but a voting pattern between two town wagons says very litle still, except for formation, which especially in moths case, since it formed so quickly is allready there, and i dare say moth will flip during this game no matter what.

    So what wouldnt make sense, is if i didnt consider anyworld where in you are scum. I am only really disregarding ratchett atleast or a day more maybe 2, and hells is as near lock town to me as can be.
    anyone else, though on my "not today" list are posible scum.

    now if we do kill moth, what then, do we have to kill DZ d3 because they where the wagon that was being saved when moth wagon formed ?

    thats a very very easy way for wolves to set up 3 lynches, forming dynamicly through out the days, in case DZ was town aswell. The progresseing is purely mechanical monkey see mokney do "we must elminate wagon 2 because thats what we usually do, ohh it was town, lets eliminate the wagon that was the wagon before that because info."

    i am not willing to loose to that. I wont $%#! and whine if moth dies, he is annoying me somewhat, but i am not gonna be the one to hang him from a more top down world view, i think its bad.
    this is a decent post I just dont get why you think im town and youre insistent that I should be untouchable today - but you also arent even interested in a wind or dr z flip.

    do you have wind as town?
    Bruh! I dont think you are town, $%#! no.

    My read on Wind, still inconclusive.
    okay sothy
    thanks for answering my question sothy
    How do you dare to compare with Sothy? This is how you want me to townread you?

    Are you purposely trying to make me upset? Because it is working.
  40. Sticky: Game Thread No, i already did. ISO me. But i can tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yami Fenrir (#3220)
    Okay.

    I can agree with the logic in the last post (I think I said something similar before).

    Right now I'm vaguely inclined to vote conq > moth > sothys

    I'd like someone with more experience with sothys to comment maybe.

    Can you elaborate on ratchet?
    No, i already did. ISO me.

    But i can tell you that my tunneled on Ratchet began with a misinterpretation of their posts so my suspicion is no longer valid, if they are scum, it's not for thecreasons i tunneled him for.
  41. Sticky: Game Thread Bruh! I dont think you are town, $%#! no. My...

    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#3258)
    Quote Originally Posted by sothys (#3256)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3243)
    Like Sorhy's train of thought does not make any sense at all.

    If i was scum here. I'd try to push over the people that know me. Like if i was scum here and Neopest and DoctorZeus were both town, i would have found now a way to make them look sus and chop them, i would have night killed one of them because if there is something im most uncomfortable with is playing with people that know me well because i know im under their spotlight. Town!DoctorZeus would have gone over easily yesterday if i was scum when he was CC to Windward yesterday, i would have went to the bathroom in my training, find a random reason to vote DoctorZeus and chop him.

    Oh and i would have drown out loud voices with mine, i would not be campaigning for cooperation and prodding LHFs and low posters to post and most importantly, i would have definitely taken advantage of that stupid thunderdome and if my partner was in it i would have hellbussed him for maximum cred.

    That is the kind of wolf guillo you'd expect.

    I wouldnt be campaigning to resolve suspected wagons.
    I dont know you, so i dont expect anything from you.
    getting to know you through this game, i am certain that you are very very competent.
    you have slight "look down my nose" syndrome towards people who dont see the world your way. and instantly become rather condecending towards them. Your point would come through better if you didnt. But im learning to read through it.

    scum!anyone would love to kill town!moth because then all votes are just blank and there is very litle info, maybe in the voting pattern, but a voting pattern between two town wagons says very litle still, except for formation, which especially in moths case, since it formed so quickly is allready there, and i dare say moth will flip during this game no matter what.

    So what wouldnt make sense, is if i didnt consider anyworld where in you are scum. I am only really disregarding ratchett atleast or a day more maybe 2, and hells is as near lock town to me as can be.
    anyone else, though on my "not today" list are posible scum.

    now if we do kill moth, what then, do we have to kill DZ d3 because they where the wagon that was being saved when moth wagon formed ?

    thats a very very easy way for wolves to set up 3 lynches, forming dynamicly through out the days, in case DZ was town aswell. The progresseing is purely mechanical monkey see mokney do "we must elminate wagon 2 because thats what we usually do, ohh it was town, lets eliminate the wagon that was the wagon before that because info."

    i am not willing to loose to that. I wont $%#! and whine if moth dies, he is annoying me somewhat, but i am not gonna be the one to hang him from a more top down world view, i think its bad.
    this is a decent post I just dont get why you think im town and youre insistent that I should be untouchable today - but you also arent even interested in a wind or dr z flip.

    do you have wind as town?
    Bruh! I dont think you are town, $%#! no.

    My read on Wind, still inconclusive.
  42. Sticky: Game Thread We reevaluate. Im not gonna lay down a plan of...

    Quote Originally Posted by sothys (#3256)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3243)
    Like Sorhy's train of thought does not make any sense at all.

    If i was scum here. I'd try to push over the people that know me. Like if i was scum here and Neopest and DoctorZeus were both town, i would have found now a way to make them look sus and chop them, i would have night killed one of them because if there is something im most uncomfortable with is playing with people that know me well because i know im under their spotlight. Town!DoctorZeus would have gone over easily yesterday if i was scum when he was CC to Windward yesterday, i would have went to the bathroom in my training, find a random reason to vote DoctorZeus and chop him.

    Oh and i would have drown out loud voices with mine, i would not be campaigning for cooperation and prodding LHFs and low posters to post and most importantly, i would have definitely taken advantage of that stupid thunderdome and if my partner was in it i would have hellbussed him for maximum cred.

    That is the kind of wolf guillo you'd expect.

    I wouldnt be campaigning to resolve suspected wagons.
    I dont know you, so i dont expect anything from you.
    getting to know you through this game, i am certain that you are very very competent.
    you have slight "look down my nose" syndrome towards people who dont see the world your way. and instantly become rather condecending towards them. Your point would come through better if you didnt. But im learning to read through it.

    scum!anyone would love to kill town!moth because then all votes are just blank and there is very litle info, maybe in the voting pattern, but a voting pattern between two town wagons says very litle still, except for formation, which especially in moths case, since it formed so quickly is allready there, and i dare say moth will flip during this game no matter what.

    So what wouldnt make sense, is if i didnt consider anyworld where in you are scum. I am only really disregarding ratchett atleast or a day more maybe 2, and hells is as near lock town to me as can be.
    anyone else, though on my "not today" list are posible scum.

    now if we do kill moth, what then, do we have to kill DZ d3 because they where the wagon that was being saved when moth wagon formed ?

    thats a very very easy way for wolves to set up 3 lynches, forming dynamicly through out the days, in case DZ was town aswell. The progresseing is purely mechanical monkey see mokney do "we must elminate wagon 2 because thats what we usually do, ohh it was town, lets eliminate the wagon that was the wagon before that because info."

    i am not willing to loose to that. I wont $%#! and whine if moth dies, he is annoying me somewhat, but i am not gonna be the one to hang him from a more top down world view, i think its bad.
    We reevaluate. Im not gonna lay down a plan of how we shall proceed because you know, SCUM looooves making plans.
  43. Sticky: Game Thread I mean… look im gonna level with you neo. I...

    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#3241)
    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#3226)
    Guillo
    based on my scumreads at present do you think there is nothing I could ever do that would be pro town?

    current scumreads:leans
    sothy
    ratchet
    you
    conq
    wind
    why do you SR conq but not zeus?
    I mean… look im gonna level with you neo.

    I believe Conq and DZ are associated, if you read me and you are not making me repeat myself like an idiot, you know that the suspicion is there.
    But i know DoctorZeus and when he is scum, he has a hard time making elaborated and concise cases, when he is scum he dips out of the thread longer, he has less presence and ge also tries to avoid people that can meta read him.

    When he is scum, he is calculated, wants to appear logical and dont go into faking loltown conspiracy theories.

    And as scum, he'd accept the pocket and pretend we found common ground easily and not question me on my audacity in that “im very pocketable”, because yes, i did it intentionally to see how he'd react lol.
  44. Sticky: Game Thread Like Sorhy's train of thought does not make any...

    Like Sorhy's train of thought does not make any sense at all.

    If i was scum here. I'd try to push over the people that know me. Like if i was scum here and Neopest and DoctorZeus were both town, i would have found now a way to make them look sus and chop them, i would have night killed one of them because if there is something im most uncomfortable with is playing with people that know me well because i know im under their spotlight. Town!DoctorZeus would have gone over easily yesterday if i was scum when he was CC to Windward yesterday, i would have went to the bathroom in my training, find a random reason to vote DoctorZeus and chop him.

    Oh and i would have drown out loud voices with mine, i would not be campaigning for cooperation and prodding LHFs and low posters to post and most importantly, i would have definitely taken advantage of that stupid thunderdome and if my partner was in it i would have hellbussed him for maximum cred.

    That is the kind of wolf guillo you'd expect.

    I wouldnt be campaigning to resolve suspected wagons.
  45. Sticky: Game Thread If i was scum with moth being town, i would not...

    Quote Originally Posted by sothys (#3217)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3215)
    Quote Originally Posted by sothys (#3207)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3204)
    inno child for the rest of the game, i will not waste my time pushing someone i scum read for it to be ignored, this is what im talking about, it's like talking to a goddamn wall here and im feeling frustrated and powerless trying to convince you all that not only Moth has high wolf equity but he is the optimal chop as well, because if you've read the thread, most players have their stances on moth and the majority dont have very positive reasons to keep him alive.

    After today, if you wanna chop Moth, YOU WILL HAVE TO DO IT WITHOUT MY HELP!
    Help me out here for a scond.
    I get how if moth flips wolf, it really opens the game up.
    But if they flip town, i dont agree with you. then how are you gona wagonmagics the first two day, its just the entire game voting for town. I dont like the "we should allways kill the second wagon" style of play and i dont blive it has a high victory rate.
    So talk to me like im 5 please, and tell me why moth is so important.
    Ok, let's pretend Moth is town but just highly PoEd.

    Actually killing the second wagon results in a better victory rate for town.

    Scum is the most interested party on keeping a highly suspected PoEd townie alive, because as long as he is alive, the doubt will be there and that doubt is what scum will seek to exploit in the future. I bet you that if moth is town, one scum is townreading him now but somewhere in their posts have “suspected” him for some reason which they can reference to later to push them under the disguise of “ooooh look at this, this and this flipped scum reading him and this and that happened, gee, i wish i pursued that, moth is sus here”, and since moth will have a list of of players suspecting him for different reason, town will have no choice but to chop him.

    And this is why if Moth is not resolved today, i will treat him like inno child tomorrow and for the rest of the game, because it means that:

    1) I may be wrong, town is seeing something im not thus it means im blindly tunneled and im getting townread just because of that because im blindly tunneling Moth and not for my reads.

    2) If he is scum, im making him a martyr from my strong push on him, im actually getting town to be sympathetic towards saving him because im “bullying him”.

    3) f he is town he is being saved for later and i will not let scum use that weapon.
    so since you cant include
    4) maybe you are just wolf and all you say on the matter is baloney
    i will do that for you. Is there an actual stat on killing the second wagon D2 leading to his ?
    i dont think there is, however if we could get the entire game to vote like we did yesterday, where everyone just votes most likely scum in their oppinion. We would have data incidently when we do flip a wolf.

    I dont really see anything explaining in your post, you state things as fact. Thats not the same.

    and before someone says this is shading, its not, guillotina is growing on me despite out spat yesterday, i respect their game today alot more. and they are still in my will not vote pile.
    If i was scum with moth being town, i would not be trying to push him, didnt you read what i just said lol

    I would be trying to keep him alive because as long as he is PoE, as long as he is suspected, he is town's problem, not scum's.
  46. Sticky: Game Thread Yes but that push had died out and it was only...

    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#3211)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3210)
    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#3201)
    anyways i reread the current pages and i dont like doctorzeus's push on vernon the most so

    ##Vote DoctorZeus
    Why you dont like Vernom's push the most?

    After yesterday you pushed for a Ricardo yeet after Vernon was pushed by him.
    And now this.
    This not a coincidence now, it is a pattern and it is noted.
    i pushed ricardo before he even pushed vernon, read my iso
    Yes but that push had died out and it was only when Ricardo pushed Vernon that you reacted more aggressively and campaigned for his chop. Read your ISO.
  47. Sticky: Game Thread No it's not. It's not falling for scum's 101...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yami Fenrir (#3214)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3204)
    If you guys wanna keep the game closed, keep Moth alive to flip him later when we will be forced to chop him at a critical time and maybe too late for us.

    In fact, town, i will tell you this:

    if Moth is not chopped today i will treat him like inno child for the rest of the game, i will not waste my time pushing someone i scum read for it to be ignored, this is what im talking about, it's like talking to a goddamn wall here and im feeling frustrated and powerless trying to convince you all that not only Moth has high wolf equity but he is the optimal chop as well, because if you've read the thread, most players have their stances on moth and the majority dont have very positive reasons to keep him alive.

    After today, if you wanna chop Moth, YOU WILL HAVE TO DO IT WITHOUT MY HELP!
    This is childish. Regardless of alignment.

    Anyway, other than moth, what's your current scumreads?
    No it's not. It's not falling for scum's 101 tactics.

    Right now im stock Conq, Sothy, and Ratchet.
  48. Sticky: Game Thread Ok, let's pretend Moth is town but just highly...

    Quote Originally Posted by sothys (#3207)
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#3204)
    inno child for the rest of the game, i will not waste my time pushing someone i scum read for it to be ignored, this is what im talking about, it's like talking to a goddamn wall here and im feeling frustrated and powerless trying to convince you all that not only Moth has high wolf equity but he is the optimal chop as well, because if you've read the thread, most players have their stances on moth and the majority dont have very positive reasons to keep him alive.

    After today, if you wanna chop Moth, YOU WILL HAVE TO DO IT WITHOUT MY HELP!
    Help me out here for a scond.
    I get how if moth flips wolf, it really opens the game up.
    But if they flip town, i dont agree with you. then how are you gona wagonmagics the first two day, its just the entire game voting for town. I dont like the "we should allways kill the second wagon" style of play and i dont blive it has a high victory rate.
    So talk to me like im 5 please, and tell me why moth is so important.
    Ok, let's pretend Moth is town but just highly PoEd.

    Actually killing the second wagon results in a better victory rate for town.

    Scum is the most interested party on keeping a highly suspected PoEd townie alive, because as long as he is alive, the doubt will be there and that doubt is what scum will seek to exploit in the future. I bet you that if moth is town, one scum is townreading him now but somewhere in their posts have “suspected” him for some reason which they can reference to later to push them under the disguise of “ooooh look at this, this and this flipped scum reading him and this and that happened, gee, i wish i pursued that, moth is sus here”, and since moth will have a list of of players suspecting him for different reason, town will have no choice but to chop him.

    And this is why if Moth is not resolved today, i will treat him like inno child tomorrow and for the rest of the game, because it means that:

    1) I may be wrong, town is seeing something im not thus it means im blindly tunneled and im getting townread just because of that because im blindly tunneling Moth and not for my reads.

    2) If he is scum, im making him a martyr from my strong push on him, im actually getting town to be sympathetic towards saving him because im “bullying him”.

    3) f he is town he is being saved for later and i will not let scum use that weapon.
  49. Sticky: Game Thread Why you dont like Vernom's push the most? ...

    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#3201)
    anyways i reread the current pages and i dont like doctorzeus's push on vernon the most so

    ##Vote DoctorZeus
    Why you dont like Vernom's push the most?

    After yesterday you pushed for a Ricardo yeet after Vernon was pushed by him.
    And now this.
    This not a coincidence now, it is a pattern and it is noted.
  50. Sticky: Game Thread If you guys wanna keep the game closed, keep Moth...

    If you guys wanna keep the game closed, keep Moth alive to flip him later when we will be forced to chop him at a critical time and maybe too late for us.

    In fact, town, i will tell you this:

    if Moth is not chopped today i will treat him like inno child for the rest of the game, i will not waste my time pushing someone i scum read for it to be ignored, this is what im talking about, it's like talking to a goddamn wall here and im feeling frustrated and powerless trying to convince you all that not only Moth has high wolf equity but he is the optimal chop as well, because if you've read the thread, most players have their stances on moth and the majority dont have very positive reasons to keep him alive.

    After today, if you wanna chop Moth, YOU WILL HAVE TO DO IT WITHOUT MY HELP!
Results 1 to 50 of 3000
Page 1 of 60 1 2 3 4
about us
Mafia Universe is a community hub for people who enjoy playing the forum variant of Mafia (also known as Werewolf). We offer fully automated Mafia games and a wide variety of customized features crafted to optimize your game experience. We also proudly host the Internet's only database of Mafia/Werewolf communities.

We hope you stick around!
Role of the Day
Steadfast Townie

The Steadfast Townie will kill anyone attempting to convert them at night. The Steadfast Townie can maximum kill 2 people with their ability, after which they will lose it.