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  1. Okay, I get it. Actually I use quotations for...

    Okay, I get it. Actually I use quotations for different reasons.

    Sometimes I use them for emphasis and sometimes I use them to mean how things are generally understood but it might not paint a full picture (like Makaze's joke).
  2. I don't get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#32)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#29)
    I'm interested in what other "good" players have to say about my article. I'll leave that up to you if you think you are "good" at this game or not.

    I know I had my disagreement with Makaze (who I would say knows Mafia theory well), and I don't expect universal acceptance, but just looking for more honest opinions really.
    I don't get it.
  3. I see what you are saying, honestly. Personally,...

    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#30)
    The way I view content is so radically different that I don't really know how to interact with your definitions of it.

    My idea of good content is that everything presented as fact is actually accurate, that the facts presented are complete, and that the post is drawing attention to something which is reasonably likely to aid in solving someone's role. An explanation of why the stuff is likely to be important is beneficial but not always needed.

    Bad content is stuff that wastes people's time because it has factual errors, it misrepresents or overlooks context, it's moot for whatever reason, or it's focusing on something which isn't important.
    I see what you are saying, honestly. Personally, I think better (TM) posts come with more analysis as to the why's and how's of said read. Some players are really good and they just give Very Low Content posts. "Thingyman is Scum," for example, can be powerful if it's said by the right person. Clearly, there is more work to be done on this topic. Yes, for sure! Factual information is very valuable! In fact, because I listed that sort of thing as "Low Content" doesn't really mean it is "bad" content, just, when you examine the explanatory power of a post, that's generally where I like to see reasons for things. Deductive reasons are better, obviously, but sometimes "hot takes" or some such can be beneficial for Town to solve the game based on the psychological impact it has on players.

    But all that said, I see what you are saying. From a Towns perspective, your reads are obviously "better" if they are accurate. But one persons reads don't necessarily need to be accurate for their posts to be an overall value to Town. There was an article a while ago about something like this (it might have been you I was talking to about it). It is basically that the way I see the game is fundamentally different to the way you see the game, I think. I see everything has having a psychological impact on Town. IIRC, you think correctness is more important (in terms of net gain) than anything that could be incorrect.

    IDK, this is just the way I see it. That's mostly what I am left with when I consider what you have said. Perhaps you can write an article about something like this. I say something like this and not just your interpretation of content because I do think there's an article out there on being "accurate" with things. I think there was an article on Skill based on something like this. Personally, I just don't view content in a binary way like that article seemed to suggest. Who's right and who is wrong? It seems to be a matter of perspective.
  4. I'm interested in what other "good" players have...

    I'm interested in what other "good" players have to say about my article. I'll leave that up to you if you think you are "good" at this game or not.

    I know I had my disagreement with Makaze (who I would say knows Mafia theory well), and I don't expect universal acceptance, but just looking for more honest opinions really.
  5. Your welcome!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa2 (#26)
    Interesting thoughts. Thx for putting them out here
    Your welcome!
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    seis

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  8. I thought I explained this? I guess I didn't do a...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alison (#24)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#22)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alison (#20)
    Can you summarize the point of this article in one sentence?
    IDK why that would be more helpful than the cliff notes, but I can try.

    Something like this: Try and produce content that makes Town think better about the game either by the state of the thread or the stage of the game.
    Why would you intentionally shoot for low content early game then?
    I thought I explained this? I guess I didn't do a good enough job.

    Maybe I wasn't clear how, in some sense, pointless Very Low Content posts are generally. The whole article is about getting the most out of Town. Matching your content to the game stage can be part of that. I maybe didn't focus on this enough, but I was really trying to hit the psychological impact different content has on the rest of Town. In very early stages of the game, I make the argument that you can actually get out of RVS faster by taking the game seriously in terms of providing something that forces Town to actually think about the game more critically. Providing serious reads when everyone is joking around is a way to do that. Granted it only works if it looks like you are trying to take the game more seriously when you shouldn't be. It might draw suspicion initially, but I say that if you explain what you were trying to do, then you probably won't get Elimmed for it. Plus, in the early stages of the game, It's hard to make a Medium Content post because there's not really anything to analyze. It's hard to make a Low Content post because hardly anything has happened.
  9. If I was going to offer some advice to you it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#21)
    Quote Originally Posted by Voxxicus (#1)
    Very Low Content: Any post that does not have a well reasoned conclusion about a player, tells very little about any players in the game, or does not help motivate Town to win. An example of this is RVS/RQS, naked votes, or a single read on a single player with no explanation. Very Low Content posts have their place, but very sparingly (IMO). In short an example would be something like "Thingymna is Rand<V." And this is especially so if there is no context for the read/vote/statement. So for example, If I were to say "Thingyman is Scum" but I do not provide any context for that, then this would be a Very Low context post. You could say a step in between Low Content posts and Very Low Content posts would be to quote a post and simply say "Town," or something like that.
    oops

    this is like all my posts lol
    If I was going to offer some advice to you it would be to try and spend more time on your content if the situation calls for it. For example, like I said, if the thread is slow, or you are in late game, take more time to produce more quality posts. It can be hard to shift gears if you are used to posting a certain way, but you will become a better player if you can produce content based on what I talked about in the article. I would also add that in D1 low content posts are fine mostly. Finally, from what I got from the game we played together, I wouldn't say all your posts are Very Low Content. I think you mix up your posts a bit more than that. You might post more on the lower end in general, but if you can work toward making a bit higher quality posts I think you will become a better Mafia player.
  10. IDK why that would be more helpful than the cliff...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alison (#20)
    Can you summarize the point of this article in one sentence?
    IDK why that would be more helpful than the cliff notes, but I can try.

    Something like this: Try and produce content that makes Town think better about the game either by the state of the thread or the stage of the game.
  11. You're right. PRs generally take center stage in...

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#18)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#17)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#16)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#15)
    Well, I'm not an expert at making setups. I'm not actually an expert at anything in Mafia (but that's besides the point). If we are talking mechanical clears/guilties, then those are definitely possible in the game I am making, but not just from one post. It would take more than one claim to get a confirmed guilty in my setup. And my game doesn't have Godfather or Miller either as I consider those bastard roles. I'd divulge more, but it's still getting looked at in the setup private section.
    My original criticism stems from putting claims of mechanical results on the same level as catching mafia in subjective ways. Even false claims of mechanical results have vastly different impacts on the game than false claims of subjective catches because they do not rely on subjective beliefs.
    I hear what you are saying, but I'd say my article focuses more on the psychological impacts of level of content for the whole game rather than just what is known by the player producing the content.

    If I have you right, High Content posts are not possible in Mountainous setups. Would you say that is accurate for you?

    It's probably partly my fault that I said High Content posts include guilties. If I would have left guilties out of the equation, then you probably wouldn't have this criticism. I think you are right that claims are different than other kinds of content, but I wanted to leave room for very good posts that were able to be made apart from guilty claims.

    Maybe this is a difference in philosophy. I personally am a player who thinks PRs can conflate how a game might otherwise be played without them. I think PRs are fun sometimes, but I'd prefer PRs to only aid in helping Town and not be the most important part of the game. In the end, I still want the game to be won or lost based on Scum hunting and not won because one faction has used their abilities better than the other. But maybe that is personal preference.
    I would contend that PRs introduce a level of content above your article, but that problem is resolved in mountainous.
    You're right. PRs generally take center stage in games. So much so that the whole game ends up revolving around how well those PRs play.

    We can talk about PRs being a "level above my article" but this article is based on content, not PR play.

    If someone wants to make an article based on how to produce content as a PR, they are free to do so, but that is out of the scope of what I've said. But given most of the Town in the game are VT, my article still largely applies to correct play.

    The fundamental difference (I think) is that I DON'T think PRs should vastly outweigh whatever VTs do in the game. Also, I specifically said this article was aimed at semi-open to mountainous setups and not based on producing meaningful content as a PR. That would be a completely different article. My article has a scope that is aimed at how you should play in these kinds of setups.

    I talked about some things in this article I have been thinking about for a long time. It feels like you are dismissing the whole thing because I didn't talk about how to produce meaningful content as a PR. I would simply say in my defense that this advice applies to PRs as well, it just may not cover all the ins and outs of how to play PR specifically. Maybe that is what you are looking for in this article.

    Sorry my article is not to your liking.
  12. I hear what you are saying, but I'd say my...

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#16)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#15)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#14)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#13)
    I can't tell if this is a difference in opinion or not. A lot of roles in the game can catch Scum but are also subjective. I'm working on a setup now with false clears and guilties, for example. In those situations, geting a red check is undeniably valuable to Town, but if it's not a strict 100% guilty, then it doesn't offer the same confidence that only a cop can give.
    I'm somewhat against false check mechanics and prefer mechanics that don't lie, like motion detector, tracker, or replacing godfather and miller with multiple investigation immune roles (e.g. 3 investigation immune town and one investigation immune mafia) so that results are ambiguous without being lies.
    Well, I'm not an expert at making setups. I'm not actually an expert at anything in Mafia (but that's besides the point). If we are talking mechanical clears/guilties, then those are definitely possible in the game I am making, but not just from one post. It would take more than one claim to get a confirmed guilty in my setup. And my game doesn't have Godfather or Miller either as I consider those bastard roles. I'd divulge more, but it's still getting looked at in the setup private section.
    My original criticism stems from putting claims of mechanical results on the same level as catching mafia in subjective ways. Even false claims of mechanical results have vastly different impacts on the game than false claims of subjective catches because they do not rely on subjective beliefs.
    I hear what you are saying, but I'd say my article focuses more on the psychological impacts of level of content for the whole game rather than just what is known by the player producing the content.

    If I have you right, High Content posts are not possible in Mountainous setups. Would you say that is accurate for you?

    It's probably partly my fault that I said High Content posts include guilties. If I would have left guilties out of the equation, then you probably wouldn't have this criticism. I think you are right that claims are different than other kinds of content, but I wanted to leave room for very good posts that were able to be made apart from guilty claims.

    Maybe this is a difference in philosophy. I personally am a player who thinks PRs can conflate how a game might otherwise be played without them. I think PRs are fun sometimes, but I'd prefer PRs to only aid in helping Town and not be the most important part of the game. In the end, I still want the game to be won or lost based on Scum hunting and not won because one faction has used their abilities better than the other. But maybe that is personal preference.
  13. Well, I'm not an expert at making setups. I'm not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#14)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#13)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#12)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#11)
    I suppose. I tried to say a High Content post that is NOT a strict guilty has essentially the same effect. Basically catching Scum red handed. Granted it is a LOT harder to do this based on play, but it is possible. High Content posts are the kinds of posts that get Scum Elimmed for the right reasons, basically, all done in a single post. Other ways of catching Scum might require multiple posts, such as setting them up with a gambit or something like that. The way I view High Content posts is that it catches Scum based on facts, not interpretation. That's why I said most of Towns content would be in the Medium Content category - because those posts are very helpful for Town solving the game, but they are not as Concrete in terms of things based on facts in the game. I suppose you could argue that this is impossible without a guilty, but aren't those kinds of posts the things we strive for as the pinnacle of good Town play? Basically, I tried to set it up so that High Content posts are the kinds of posts that are very difficult for Scum to argue against. They are the kinds of posts that make Scum lol!cat post.

    But aside from all that, if you looking at non-mechanical/non-condmning posts that are the kinds of post that lead to Scum getting Elimmed, but are simply argued better than their Scum counterparts, then those would be Medium Content posts. I many not have said that explicitly, but it was obvious to me as I was writing it that this is the case. Perhaps a blind spot in my communicating.

    Let me know if this answers your question.
    Thanks.

    Mechanical content is fundamentally different to me because of the impact it has on the game. It is not possible for a town to mistakenly think they read a red check. It is possible to mistakenly think something is a lie. Mechanical claims lock one as a wolf every time.
    I can't tell if this is a difference in opinion or not. A lot of roles in the game can catch Scum but are also subjective. I'm working on a setup now with false clears and guilties, for example. In those situations, geting a red check is undeniably valuable to Town, but if it's not a strict 100% guilty, then it doesn't offer the same confidence that only a cop can give.
    I'm somewhat against false check mechanics and prefer mechanics that don't lie, like motion detector, tracker, or replacing godfather and miller with multiple investigation immune roles (e.g. 3 investigation immune town and one investigation immune mafia) so that results are ambiguous without being lies.
    Well, I'm not an expert at making setups. I'm not actually an expert at anything in Mafia (but that's besides the point). If we are talking mechanical clears/guilties, then those are definitely possible in the game I am making, but not just from one post. It would take more than one claim to get a confirmed guilty in my setup. And my game doesn't have Godfather or Miller either as I consider those bastard roles. I'd divulge more, but it's still getting looked at in the setup private section.
  14. I can't tell if this is a difference in opinion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#12)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#11)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#9)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#8)
    Right, that's why I said in my other post that you can think about High vs. Very Low in terms of Deductive vs Subjective, or Conclusive vs. Tentative if you prefer that terminology instead.
    This doesn't seem to answer the question.
    I suppose. I tried to say a High Content post that is NOT a strict guilty has essentially the same effect. Basically catching Scum red handed. Granted it is a LOT harder to do this based on play, but it is possible. High Content posts are the kinds of posts that get Scum Elimmed for the right reasons, basically, all done in a single post. Other ways of catching Scum might require multiple posts, such as setting them up with a gambit or something like that. The way I view High Content posts is that it catches Scum based on facts, not interpretation. That's why I said most of Towns content would be in the Medium Content category - because those posts are very helpful for Town solving the game, but they are not as Concrete in terms of things based on facts in the game. I suppose you could argue that this is impossible without a guilty, but aren't those kinds of posts the things we strive for as the pinnacle of good Town play? Basically, I tried to set it up so that High Content posts are the kinds of posts that are very difficult for Scum to argue against. They are the kinds of posts that make Scum lol!cat post.

    But aside from all that, if you looking at non-mechanical/non-condmning posts that are the kinds of post that lead to Scum getting Elimmed, but are simply argued better than their Scum counterparts, then those would be Medium Content posts. I many not have said that explicitly, but it was obvious to me as I was writing it that this is the case. Perhaps a blind spot in my communicating.

    Let me know if this answers your question.
    Thanks.

    Mechanical content is fundamentally different to me because of the impact it has on the game. It is not possible for a town to mistakenly think they read a red check. It is possible to mistakenly think something is a lie. Mechanical claims lock one as a wolf every time.
    I can't tell if this is a difference in opinion or not. A lot of roles in the game can catch Scum but are also subjective. I'm working on a setup now with false clears and false guilties, for example. In those situations, geting a red check is undeniably valuable to Town, but if it's not a strict 100% guilty, then it doesn't offer the same confidence that only a cop can give.
  15. I suppose. I tried to say a High Content post...

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#9)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#8)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#5)
    All other forms of being "caught" are fundamentally different. Do these fit in a different category, or are all non-mechanical catches medium by default?
    Right, that's why I said in my other post that you can think about High vs. Very Low in terms of Deductive vs Subjective, or Conclusive vs. Tentative if you prefer that terminology instead.
    This doesn't seem to answer the question.
    I suppose. I tried to say a High Content post that is NOT a strict guilty has essentially the same effect. Basically catching Scum red handed. Granted it is a LOT harder to do this based on play, but it is possible. High Content posts are the kinds of posts that get Scum Elimmed for the right reasons, basically, all done in a single post. Other ways of catching Scum might require multiple posts, such as setting them up with a gambit or something like that. The way I view High Content posts is that it catches Scum based on facts, not interpretation. That's why I said most of Towns content would be in the Medium Content category - because those posts are very helpful for Town solving the game, but they are not as Concrete in terms of things based on facts in the game. I suppose you could argue that this is impossible without a guilty, but aren't those kinds of posts the things we strive for as the pinnacle of good Town play? Basically, I tried to set it up so that High Content posts are the kinds of posts that are very difficult for Scum to argue against. They are the kinds of posts that make Scum lol!cat post.

    But aside from all that, if you looking at non-mechanical/non-condmning posts that are the kinds of post that lead to Scum getting Elimmed, but are simply argued better than their Scum counterparts, then those would be Medium Content posts. I many not have said that explicitly, but it was obvious to me as I was writing it that this is the case. Perhaps a blind spot in my communicating.

    Let me know if this answers your question.
  16. Right, that's why I said in my other post that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#5)
    All other forms of being "caught" are fundamentally different. Do these fit in a different category, or are all non-mechanical catches medium by default?
    Right, that's why I said in my other post that you can think about High vs. Very Low in terms of Deductive vs Subjective, or Conclusive vs. Tentative if you prefer that terminology instead.
  17. I called it High and Very Low because of how much...

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#5)
    The words "high" and "low" feel wrong, since they can be misunderstood to correspond to effort or volume. "Heavy" and "light" would be better IYAM.
    I called it High and Very Low because of how much it helps Town. High will help all Town players and very low will help very few. But you could be right that perhaps it would be better to call it Heavy and Light.

    Overall, the concept is correct, but is is too rigid, to the point that it can lead to some faulty actions in the name of conforming to the mathematical standard.
    Perhaps I was not explicit about this enough, but I did try and mention that you should be mixing up your content in some situations. I just didn't give the ins and outs of that.
  18. Wisdom, Makaze, FMPOV, High content does not...

    @Wisdom, @Makaze,

    FMPOV, High content does not necessarily mean how many words you are typing and I largely did not tackle "when," as in, specific instances where you would post X Content post per Y situation, but I gave a couple examples.

    You can think of High vs Very Low as more of a form of deductive vs. subjective on a sliding scale. Where Very Low content posts work is when, say, there is not much content in the game (at a particular point) and you need to force Town to play devils advocate to what you are saying (bonus points for not lying in doing such so you can argue you point more down the road).

    Of course, as @Syn mentions, some of this has to do with playstyle as well. I tried to aim for a more optimal/general strategy rather than trying to give every single scenario under the sun.
  19. My comment to this: ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#1)
    #5: Zarathustra, Season 5, Game 7, Day 1

    Background: Day 1 lynches in Champs are a crapshoot. Sometimes, they can hit a random low-posting townie, or somebody who, probably through culture clash, just doesn't fit in with the vibe of the rest of the thread. Sometimes, they can hit a player who made genuinely wolfy posts. Sometimes, they can even hit a wolf! Sometimes, though, they can hit an obvious villager for incredibly dubious reasons. This one had a fairly tame origin, but like a boulder rolling down a mountain, it just tragically continued to pick up momentum until the mislynch became an unstoppable juggernaut and it plowed straight into the village.

    It started off innocently enough. Quick and Zarathustra had a misunderstanding about how Quick thought Zara should be reading him given their prior experiences together:

    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#33)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#25)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#21)
    Oh, that game was within the last year iirc. I thought I had played in more games that that with you. You have seen me as Mafia twice I believe, and as 3p once, but you dropped out of one game. All these games were played in the last year iirc. IDK I figured you would be able to read me fairly well because I am a fairly easy read. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    fwiw why do you assume I should townread you in the first place?
    Because I am Town. Because I am easy to read as Town. Because I think you are a good player who will be able to see the difference in my Town and Scum game.

    But now that I think about it, I think we probably do not have enough experience for you to get a super good read on me. I have just been told a lot that my Town game is rather obvious, so that is why I said that originally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#66)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#54)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#48)
    It would depend on why you read me the way you did at this point. Still, I think you will come to the correct conclusion.
    So it's just a pointless throwaway comment that you try to make me think I should townread you?
    Nope. I think if you are any good at this game at all, you will TR me.


    The misunderstandings and questioning piled up, and finally Quick dropped a vote on Zara in Post 163, less than one hour into a 72-hour dayphase. On its own, fine, it's a vote early on, the game has to start one way or another. But Quick never moved his vote for the rest of the day. And somehow, the wagon picked up momentum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1319)
    Quote Originally Posted by grit (#1305)
    But does a scum Zara lay into SirDante the way they did?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#729)
    You want to do this publicly ? Ok.
    Oh you're removed alright. Do not post in this thread again. In fact do not post in a sign up thread with my name on it again. I do not want to see your username on any of my game threads. I have had some bad Mafia players in my time. And you know what, that's fine. When people first play they don't have to be good. They don't have to even be remotely in the area of okay. All they have to do is want to try. That's all I've ever asked of a player. To want to TRY. But you. Holy $#@!. YOU. Do you know how incredibly insulting it is to setup a game for a group of people, people who ASK TO PLAY IN YOUR GAME, and then they just $%#! nonstop about how they want to be replaced out because the game isn't going their way? "Yeah well I don't want to play if other people are going to like accuse me of stuff because that's just like mean and junk." $#@! off. How has it not come across your mind that the opposing faction is trying to paint you badly. KICK BACK. SHOW SOME BACK BONE. DO SOMETHING. Don't just roll over and say ok well you said something to me so I can't respond now. Did they break your beautiful feel good bubble of safe space? Is that what is wrong here? You just need a safe space on the internet where no one asks questions at you? Because here's what I see. I see a child who cannot handle being asked to think. CANNOT HANDLE BEING ARSED TO TRY TO THINK. That's what frustrates me the most here. It is the incredible amount of work you've put into $%#!ing rather than even trying. You know what, I don't ever do this. I don't ever make a player's short comings public or explode on someone. I am a patient man. But you're painting Rot and me like we just said ok $#@! you, and never answered your PM. You want to do this. We can do this.
    Idk what Zara was doing there at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1351)
    ##Vote Zarathustra

    Consider yourself still on notice, Monkey. Get some better content or double the gifs.
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#1379)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1367)
    @<a href="https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/member.php?u=747" target="_blank">SirDantetheFancy</a>

    We’re friends now, right? I’ve been defending you and stuff. Do me a favor and vote for Zara.

    Think of this as a party invitation. It’ll be fun.
    Well. I suppose a Zara lynch also gets a lot of information. Considering the interactions.
    Alright.

    ##Vote Zarathustra


    So, before EOD really kicked in, we had three votes on Zara: One of them (from Jack) was a wolf doing wolf things. Another (Dante) was the dreaded infolynch. And then there was Quick, who just got tunneled super hard and spiralled into reading every single solitary thing Zara did as having sinister motivations. Here's an excerpt of some of his D1 posts towards and about Zara:

    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#362)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#344)
    ##Vote grit

    lets focus on a wolf for once
    I think you are voting for this person because they are not a hyper poster. Otherwise, why are they Scum? This is me telling you to stop naked voting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#461)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#442)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#435)
    I am not angry. I don't know why you keep saying that I am. You are either wrong or Scum and I am guessing you are Scum because you STILL have not actually said why you think I am angry for anything that actually relates to this game. I already said more or less that you painted an accurate picture of me wanting to be a good Mafia player and that I am sensitive to that, BUT I have been through a LOT of therapy over the course of the year and learned a lot about myself. The fact you continue to say that I am angry is Scummy because there isn't actually evidence of that ITT.
    I can tell you sure

    I am pretty sure you are angry because you can feel I don't take you as serious about your ambition or the level you perceive yourself to be.

    So far all I have seen is massive derailing from you and screaming which just helps scum. I am trying to make you stop here hence I am telling you to take a break and I made sure to read back on past games to see you as town and your stances on such behaviour.

    So my conclusion is:

    either you were a hypocrite back then and called me out for being angry as scum when you do it yourself here right now

    or you are town because you look down on people who do it as scum

    I assumed the second hence I am clearing you right now.

    Outside of that I think you lack a layer of self awareness, if you truly believe you aren't angry right now.
    LOL, guess what?

    I am never moving my vote this day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#498)
    Quote Originally Posted by Paratroopa (#482)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#481)
    I have caught Scum early in a game before and I don't plan on letting this one slip.
    We aren't lynching Zara today
    It's not up to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#1009)
    So guess what? Zara is full of $#@!! Zara doesn't actually say I am angry until AFTER I make my case on him. And it's stated as a blanket accusation. I ask them why they think I am angry and they immediately literally change the tone that they are coming across as from accusatory to explaining.

    Also, you notice that there are a number of things that I don't think Zara even responds to, like what Zara was mad about at the beginning of the game.

    So the progression is basically this:
    1. Quick: Zara, you should be TRing me this game
    2. Zara: I'm pissed
    3. Zara: why should I TR you?
    4. Quick: because you have meta on me
    5. Zara: My meta on you isn't recent
    6. Quick: Yes, it is
    7. Zara: ...
    8. Quick: Why do you think it would be so easy to win in a Champs game?
    9. Zara: Because Scum win in Champs games
    10. Quick: Yeah, but Scum doesn't win EVERY Champs game, right?
    11. Zara: ...
    12. Quick: Why were you pissed at the beginning of the game?
    13. Zara: ...
    14. Quick: Hey, I think you have more meta on me than you do on Para and you are TRing them. I think you should be able to TR me too because you actually have more meta on me than Para
    15. Zara: ...
    16. Quick: Actually, I think I have enough for a vote at this point Vote: Zara
    17. Quick: Here's my case [insert case here]
    18. Zara: Your case is too long
    19. Quick: Your Scum!
    20. Quick: Hey, why are you naked voting people?
    21. Zara: Stop tunneling me!
    22. Quick: OK, if it's not a naked vote can you explain it please?
    23. Zara: Your case is too long and someone said you contradicted yourself
    24. Quick: ...
    25. Zara: Why are you throwing a temper tantrum?
    26. Quick: I'm not upset?
    27. Zara: Yes, you are.
    28. I'm not but I don't like you accusing me of being mad when I'm not
    29. Zara: Take a break from the game, you are clearly too upset to play rn
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#1094)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#433)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#424)
    Yes, I actually think Zara is Scum here. I have had a lot of thoughts about them in this game and nothing about their play doesn't seem like it isn't manipulative. At the beginning I felt Prada was stalling progress on Scum hunting talking about all manner of irrelevant things and posting a lot. I haven't actually seen much Scum hunting from them. They are making low effort posts IMO. They are not asking very many questions. They are naked voting and seem content to continue to do so. Their first vote was based on nothing and that person hasn't posted again IIRC, so I am not really sure why they are voting for someone else at this time. They are constantly asking me if I am angry/telling me to take a break and I think they are doing that because they are actually trying to make me angry. I didn't spend a year and a half of Group therapy for nothing and this tells me it is working because I am not actually angry. Prada is representing that I am angry when there is pretty much zero evidence to suggest that I am. What's more is that I have told them exactly how I am feeling multiple times and they do not listen. I find Prada's general demeanor this game is not based on finding Scum and lynching them, but rather that they are trying to push and agenda (which all Scum have to do).
    How about this

    you can use the ignore function to ignore me, if I hurt you here in a way. I will also ignore you don't worry. But I am assuming you are town
    I read my case on Zara here and I have to say, it's pretty solid. The fact that Zara 100% dismisses it is telling all in itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#1293)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#1289)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1287)
    Can someone tell me why they townread Zara?

    He appears to be trying to brute force the idea that he’s town.

    1) Quick scumreads Zara so Zara goes “you mad you mad” until he actually pisses off Quick, then mutes Quick to have an excuse not to respond to him.

    2) Jack says Quick comes out better in the exchange and casts some suspicion towards Zara. Now suddenly Zara needs to look into Jack. Says so several times. Says he’s worried. Eventually comes to the conclusion that Jack is “rubbing him off” (you wish) “the wrong way.” But why? Doesn’t say.

    Neither of these things appear to come from a townie mindset.

    Zara’s got a consensus townread but I’d put down money it’s based on volume. Prove me wrong.
    Mostly the argument with Quick seemed like two genuine players attempting to discover the other alignment. it would strike me as odd for scum to dive so quick into such an attention demanding play but it could be he just has balls of steel. However I am willing to stick to probably likely town at this point pending future posts.
    I'd like to know why you think Zara actually was trying to sort me when they said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#295)
    Let's assume quick is town
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#1403)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#1399)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#511)
    I'm halfway through the HF route and I kinda hate Sakura. Bout halfway through Extra on PSP (emulated and savescumming). Caster was the correct choice. Just finished up Apocrypia and it was disappointing but at least Astolpho has lots of great gifs. Wanted to get Prestige Flower but have you seen how damn expensive it is? I'll probably start reading Strange Fake once I get done with the two Fate things I'm already working on. Made a Fate Zero mafia game and it was awesome. Made a Fate Stay mafia game and it was an absolute trainwreck.
    Finish hf btw. It's my favorite route personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#527)
    Suicidefarfetched's basically convinced me that we shouldn't lynch Zara by pure confidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#708)
    Post 14 is the only pre31 Zara post I see that could even be slightly scum indicative.

    #playersalad
    #makingupopinions
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#805)
    Ftr, Quick’s Zara vote and Zara’s Morvis vote are both weak, even for Day 1. I reserve the right to take that comment back in regards to Quick if he actually does something with that vote later in the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#833)
    Yeah. He explains it a few posts later.

    I actually think Quick comes out better than Zara so far.

    Quick: I think Zara is bad cause blah blah blah.
    Zara: I ain’t reading that $#@!.
    Quick: I think you are bad.
    Zara: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#835)
    Also

    Zara: Summarize what you just said.
    Quick: Your bad (sic)
    Zara: Oh you’re just mad.



    I like Zara. Nothing he’s said really pings me since I’ve arrived but this $#@! before with Quick is not great.
    Well I can go in detail with the Quick approach. I didn't want to read his case because a) it was really long and b) I don't think I really need to address it in the first place. Quick as I could see by his quoted posts believes he caught scum early. Fine. But the thing is, I don't want to engage in a massive fight over a tunnel all day because that takes up threadspace and will waste most of our time while scum can blend in while I am fighting quick. It would also mean that I am getting tilted eventually and I am not up for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#911)
    Based on your next couple post, I got a good feeling about you. Stuff I agree with. Stuff I mighta said but you beat me to it. Being right doesn’t make you town but it’s a nice place to start.



    I’m not going to bother going into why finding scum is the first step to this process cause of course you need to find and lynch scum and this game is going to be crowded enough without me getting on my soapbox and discussing game theory. Rather, let’s go into the differences between the two things and why just convincing without hunting is often baddie indicative.

    I suspect Monkey to be bad but I don’t know for sure. I could skip the investigation and go all out with challenges and nitpicks but all that’s going to accomplish is to focus the game on me and Monkey. Best case scenario, we lynch Monkey. She flips scum. I get nightkilled. (Ignoring powers for now.) We learn $#@! all about the surviving players. Or I’m wrong. We lynch a townie, I look bad and we learn $#@! all about everyone else.

    Better to poke Monkey, point out my problems with Monkey. See how Monkey reacts to me, to anyone who agrees with me. See who follows. See who adds additional reasoning. See who defends. Maybe I figure out that Monkey isn’t bad. Maybe I find a better suspect. Maybe I become more sure Monkey is bad and get a lead on her teammates.

    In short, there’s no reason to break the speed limit before I know where I’m going.

    Contrast Monkey, whose foot is on the accelerator. She proclaims Quick inconsistent. Can she lynch Quick for being inconsistent? She proclaims Mov too quiet. Can she lynch him for being quiet? Why is she driving around like a maniac (speeding and swerving) when she doesn’t know where she should be going. She’s just wasting gas. But if Monkey is bad, she doesn’t care where we go. She’s aiming for a target that’s (roughly) three times bigger than if she’s town so her carelessness makes more sense.

    Oddly enough Monkey’s chosen to basically ignore what I’ve said about her. What do you think of that?
    I found this post inconsistent with one he made later aimed at Warren where Jack criticized him for putting for example me too high, but is fine with it here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#914)
    The entire point of this conversation is “Was Zara being dishonest or maliciously dismissive when he said Quick was getting mad?”

    So if you’re not talking about that, what exactly are you doing?
    I am not quite sure how I was dishonest with what I said or rather what would come out of me being dishonest there. I cleared Quick as town. I gave the anger I perceived as reason.
    If it came before or after is another matter, but regardless he said once he only believes anger is a towntell and scum shouldn't abuse it. Wether he was angry before or after it, if I pushed buttons or not. I used that to clear him. Which shows more of a town motivation, if you think me and Quick can't be w/w together for the record. It has a scum motivation, if you assume it's preplanned and I use it to clear my partner. At least from my side I am not w/v in this interaction because I would be giving out unneccassary clears and even if you assume I was provoking it, I was still using it actively to get him cleared.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1061)
    e

    Because I love him.
    You always seem kind of dismissive of going in why you think I was town. You said Paratroopa convinced you, my posts weren't really pinging you, but you never went into real detail.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1117)
    It kinda bugs me in a “only the Sith deal in absolutes” kinda way when you throw out these rules about what makes a townie that don’t align with my experience.

    If you think catching up or answering icebreakers makes someone town, that makes you look naive. I don’t think you’re naive.

    If you think that pointing out low hanging fruit means I should townread every low poster, that makes you look silly. You don’t seem silly.

    So what should I do with that?
    These are the phrases I found manipulative. You call out my belief on reads and call them naive and silly. Which makes me think you want to call out my perceiption of things and make rethink these specific people. But why? In the end I came to these conclusions already. Why say they are simply naive and silly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1287)
    Can someone tell me why they townread Zara?

    He appears to be trying to brute force the idea that he’s town.

    1) Quick scumreads Zara so Zara goes “you mad you mad” until he actually pisses off Quick, then mutes Quick to have an excuse not to respond to him.

    2) Jack says Quick comes out better in the exchange and casts some suspicion towards Zara. Now suddenly Zara needs to look into Jack. Says so several times. Says he’s worried. Eventually comes to the conclusion that Jack is “rubbing him off” (you wish) “the wrong way.” But why? Doesn’t say.

    Neither of these things appear to come from a townie mindset.

    Zara’s got a consensus townread but I’d put down money it’s based on volume. Prove me wrong.
    Paratroopa went often more into detail why he townreads me. He said it's because his reads are similar to mine and he thinks my overall approach resembles more of a townplayer.

    That isn't only volume. That being said Jack. You said I didn't ping you earlier. You also said you are townreading me. What happened between here and back then that makes you question that read so much? You weren't even aware of possible reasons outside of volume.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1351)
    ##Vote Zarathustra

    Consider yourself still on notice, Monkey. Get some better content or double the gifs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1367)
    @<a href="https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/member.php?u=747" target="_blank">SirDantetheFancy</a>

    We’re friends now, right? I’ve been defending you and stuff. Do me a favor and vote for Zara.

    Think of this as a party invitation. It’ll be fun.

    So jack I gave you my take on things and what I found manipulative (I dismissed some of the posts where you simply expressed your love for me, but I found some of them pockety regardless. Nothing I really want to lose sleep over though)

    I think your iso has some good moments though and it's decent enough, but at points I feel like you are sidelining.

    Giving out silly hashtags, defending people here and there. Expressing reads you can't even understand yourself because you later question them.


    Too little too late, I'm afraid. It's nice that you can FINALLY actually make a post worth a damn, but I find it highly Suspect that this post just so happens to come as soon as you become the biggest wagon.

    Do you guys see now why I was saying Zara was posting too much fluff when they are capable of this? I have meta on Zara, so naturally, I know what Zara is capable of. The thing is, I do NOT think it is a coincidence that Zara makes this post only after they become the biggest bandwagon (BW). If this would have come earlier to address my case on them, then it would be a different story. And it's also highly ironic that Zara complains that my case on them was too long to read when Zara posts this.


    I could go on, but I'm genuinely worried about this post breaking the character limit, so let's just leave it there. Quick was dead set on Zara for reasons that basically snowballed, and through sheer persistence and force of will he got other people to jump on (though, in his defense, one of them was a wolf). EOD approached and Zara was viable. Sometimes, during a chaotic EOD, "currently viable" is all people need to pile on. After a late PR claim, everybody scrambled, and when the dust settled Zara went down.

    Why is was a bad lynch: There's multiple dimensions to this lynch, so let's unpack them. First of all, while the initial tunnel and Quick's refusal to get off it was a big factor in this lynch, it takes a, well, village to mislynch. People piled on. Zara was viable in the first place, for reasons that still elude me. Certainly, a couple of people were skeptical of this lynch from the start and tried to move elsewhere, but it wasn't enough. Zara never should have been viable in the first place.

    If this was just a random D1 shrug lynch, this would not have made the list, let alone the Top 5. But its genesis was an outright case for extremely petty reasons that just snowballed. Zara was by no means inactive or overwhelmed; the guy made 286 posts on D1, posted legitimate cases, and defended himself as best he could from that questionable onslaught. Yes, Zara only went over the top after the town's first choice claimed a PR and thus took himself off the table, but Zara never should have been in contention in the first place. The lynch should have defaulted onto a wolfy low-poster or something, not the target of a tunnel from someone fallen victim to Champs Hero Syndrome.

    People should have realized Quick's tunnel for what it was - a bad tunnel that shouldn't have taken up so much thread space on D1. They did retroactively, of course, and said as much, but not when it counted. Nobody who was on Zara at EOD1 escapes blame - nobody except for Jackofhearts2005, who was a wolf and who was only too happy to help see this atrocity of a lynch through.

    Lessons learned: Look, I'm not going to say "don't tunnel". All of us do from time to time, and as much as we may try to take it out of our playbook, sometimes, momentum just carries us. I like to pretend this article and this entire subforum operates at a higher level of thought than "don't tunnel".

    Instead, let's take a different tactic: don't fall victim to bystander syndrome. I came down hard on Quick in the above sections, but the bottom line is that fault also lies on the others for allowing Zara to become viable in the first place. Mafia is not an individual game, it's a team game, and the town needs to work together as a team in order to check each others' worst impulses. This did not happen here. Much more critical analysis of the Zara tunnel should have been applied beyond the simple "oh maybe it will provide information" or "let's just resolve this now so it doesn't take up our D2 as well" logic that I saw in the thread. A lot of people, both before and during EOD, didn't really give this case the full extent of their attention and only really made side comments about it. Quick, ironically so insistent on getting explanations from others for their other reads, gave the people scumreading Zara a pass and took those posts at face value.

    Critical thinking is not something that can be applied selectively, not if you want to win a game as town.
    My comment to this:

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    Automated Spot EBWOP

    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#204)
    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape (#179)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dolby (#175)
    /in

    myself/@Ace Marvel/@Quick/biancasbotique when she makes an account here

    Might add a +1 later
    Here's where I hope we get same-day active =P
    I feel like I have a better grasp of your Town game now, so I should be able to spot you if we play together
    Spot

    EBWOP
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    Automated I feel like I have a better grasp of your Town...

    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape (#179)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dolby (#175)
    /in

    myself/@Ace Marvel/@Quick/biancasbotique when she makes an account here

    Might add a +1 later
    Here's where I hope we get same-day active =P
    I feel like I have a better grasp of your Town game now, so I should be able to stop you if we play together
  22. Day 1#271

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/J15goDV.jpg

  23. Day 1#270

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/J05Yfr8.gif

    Quote Originally Posted by zintle (#264)
  24. Day 1#192

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/QmLmKt7.jpg...

  25. Day 1#191

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/GZUS98A.jpg ...

  26. Day 1#189

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/2VIciiG.jpg

  27. Day 1#188

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

    by Quick
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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/7eLRK1y.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercenary (#187)
  28. Day 1#186

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/yLQSPrA.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Marvel (#185)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#184)
    Quote Originally Posted by junefox (#122)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#74)
  29. Day 1#184

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/CHcFDoa.gif

    Quote Originally Posted by junefox (#122)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#74)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Marvel (#43)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Marvel (#42)
  30. Day 1#183

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

    by Quick
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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/SyjavJt.gif

    Quote Originally Posted by The Keeper (#97)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#77)
    Quote Originally Posted by zintle (#76)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafia Host (#99)
    Vote by Proxy

    Quote Originally Posted by The Keeper
    ##Vote Quick
    It is now 8:57:48 AM EDT on Tuesday, August 31st, 2021. There are 1630537260000 remaining.
  31. Day 1#182

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

    by Quick
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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/ADUsbSC.gif

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafia Host (#180)
    The Memes Game Day 1 Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    2 Ace Marvel lute (10), Quick (13)


    View Vote History
  32. Day 1#179

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/ddbmyDn.jpg

  33. Day 1#178

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/aspm324.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Hydreigon25 (#65)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#58)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hydreigon25 (#57)


  34. Day 1#177

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

    by Quick
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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/nztzSU8.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Hydreigon25 (#100)
  35. Day 1#175

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/ROv8otD.jpg

  36. Day 1#77

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/af0ks54.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by zintle (#76)
  37. Day 1#74

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

    by Quick
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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/5OlpQvH.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Marvel (#43)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Marvel (#42)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Marvel (#41)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Marvel (#39)
  38. Day 1#63

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/DNMYzVx.jpg ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePretender (#62)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafia Host (#60)
    Vote by Proxy

    Quote Originally Posted by Quick
    ##Vote ThePretender
    It is now 9:53:28 PM EDT on Monday, August 30th, 2021. There are 1630537260000 remaining.


  39. Postgame#1245

    Thread: Social Media Mafia

    by Quick
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    Completed I haven't won a game since I've been back from...

    I haven't won a game since I've been back from hiatus. I am doing really bad aren't I?
  40. Day 1#58

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

    by Quick
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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/9lj1pir.gif

    Quote Originally Posted by Hydreigon25 (#57)


  41. Day 1#55

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/e5keEUF.gif

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezradekezra (#23)





  42. Day 1#54

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

    by Quick
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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/8d390OY.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafia Host (#52)
    Vote by Proxy

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePretender
    ##Vote Quick
    It is now 9:14:20 PM EDT on Monday, August 30th, 2021. There are 1630537260000 remaining.
  43. Day 1#53

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

    by Quick
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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/KVMCaH9.jpg...

  44. Day 1#48

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/USuxm1Y.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#46)
  45. Day 1#46

    Thread: The Memes Game (MAFIA WINS)

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    Completed https://i.imgur.com/5S6Q3IY.jpg

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    Automated /confirm!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dolby (#175)
    /in

    myself/@Ace Marvel/@Quick/biancasbotique when she makes an account here

    Might add a +1 later
    /confirm!
  47. Postgame#1237

    Thread: Social Media Mafia

    by Quick
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    Completed Well, now I know, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#1236)
    generally not supposed to vig in f6

    rippos
    Well, now I know, I guess.
  48. Postgame#1235

    Thread: Social Media Mafia

    by Quick
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    Completed I didn't think it would be game over if Dizzy was...

    I didn't think it would be game over if Dizzy was Town! F.
  49. Postgame#1233

    Thread: Social Media Mafia

    by Quick
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    Completed FFFFfffff

    FFFFfffff
  50. Day 2#1221

    Thread: Social Media Mafia

    by Quick
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    Completed Self hammering. And saying you have verified it.

    Quote Originally Posted by NANOOKTHECONQUEROR (#1220)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#1217)
    BTW, Nanook is lying so can we just Elim them already?
    What am I lying about
    Self hammering. And saying you have verified it.
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Role of the Day
Psychiatrist

The Psychiatrist may each night target a player. If the targeted player is a Serial Killer, they will be converted to Vanilla Townie and will win with the town.