Balancing MafiaScum Setups

[Zack]

I intend to do an overhaul of the reviews in here slowly over the next couple months fwiw, to give a proper indication of what to do with the setups listed. I'll announce when I've finished it, but don't expect quick progress, just something I've been meaning to do for a while.

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A number of months back I was working on a prototype version of a less solveable D6 type setup. (let me tell you it is hard to make good modular setups.)

Remembering some of the points remember made, as well as taking a nifty idea from soahs's Mad17 setup let me to this contraption.

I don't expect that to be particularly readable, was just rough drafting. But there were the things I wanted to address with a changed version.

Having a PR and the type of PR were clearing in the old version: Now both mafia and town get roles from the same pool of viable roles. (You'll note I cut a couple roles which were pretty useless for mafia, would be worth trying to find more roles viable for modbot/regular usage to give a wider pool of games if variety is wanted). So now the type of PR someone has isn't clearing as it could just as easily be mafia or town.

Solving the having a PR problem was attempted a few ways: One, alignment results only, not role on death. This means that you can't lock the mafia out from claiming after a certain number of PRs flip (i.e you probably wouldnt have more than 3/4 town prs in a 15er so when the fourth one flips you might think that every PR claim after that has to be bogus). Having alignment only flips adds some potential ambiguity back in.

the italicised columns are basically potential sets of numbers of prs. you roll a dice and it corresponds to a number of prs. then you roll a dice which adds a modifier to that number of prs (as I'm typing this I can't remember why that is even necessary and is likely not even needed if you cut role reveals).

basically what was wanted was to create variability about the amount of prs.

Problems: you can have some really boring role combinations, mafia can get a vig, there can be multiples of the same role (is that a problem?)

I wonder if these steps don't mafia side it too much.

I should also stop trying to do d6 type setups. I'll have to tinker with this a bit more, but thoughts on the concepts would be good. creating a more viable modular setup for slightly more serious play could be a good thing.

nerd

[SmartBomb]

Hi

I had a quick thought skimming and it's that we should nix the cop 13 setup from d6

I know it hasn't been run but the basic point is that mafia get rolled three goons and hence know they're a cop 13er, whereas the rest of the villagers don't which means the cop gets zero cover

cop 13er sucks anyways

Insert MD into 2, remove the cop, and shift everything up one imo?

Soz for not contributing more i'm a proven illiterate

[LordQuas]

Hi

I had a quick thought skimming and it's that we should nix the cop 13 setup from d6

I know it hasn't been run but the basic point is that mafia get rolled three goons and hence know they're a cop 13er, whereas the rest of the villagers don't which means the cop gets zero cover

cop 13er sucks anyways

Insert MD into 2, remove the cop, and shift everything up one imo?

Soz for not contributing more i'm a proven illiterate

not the worst idea

ppl should prolly be providing cop cover anyways or if they aren't cop should prolly just not provide it themselves but still isn't a fun way around it anyways

I dun get your solution though, I think I'm just being dumb

[SmartBomb]

i just ran the calculations, might be wrong

the chances the setup rands 6I is 3.6%. would love someone to double check my numbers but as it stands I don't really want players (especially new ones, which this setup is designed for) to start pretending it's a cop 13er in the 3.6%. not cause it's bad but cause doing that every d6 if it's optimal for a 3.6% chance is dumb, and 96.4% of the time it's not even a cop 13er. also note that a lot of people don't actually know how D6 works (the last D6 i played iirc which was a hydra game last year half the village got cleared on not knowing how the setup worked) and I don't want them to expect to know how to lay basic cop cover in a game that isn't stamped "cop 13er".

the solution i'm saying is

1 - IC
2 - Motion Detector
3 - Role Oracle
4 - Rolecop
5 - Tracker
6 - Parity Cop

but aye i should be looking at nl's new setup smh

[Visorslash]

i just ran the calculations, might be wrong

the chances the setup rands 6I is 3.6%. would love someone to double check my numbers but as it stands I don't really want players (especially new ones, which this setup is designed for) to start pretending it's a cop 13er in the 3.6%. not cause it's bad but cause doing that every d6 if it's optimal for a 3.6% chance is dumb, and 96.4% of the time it's not even a cop 13er. also note that a lot of people don't actually know how D6 works (the last D6 i played iirc which was a hydra game last year half the village got cleared on not knowing how the setup worked) and I don't want them to expect to know how to lay basic cop cover in a game that isn't stamped "cop 13er".

the solution i'm saying is

1 - IC
2 - Motion Detector
3 - Role Oracle
4 - Rolecop
5 - Tracker
6 - Parity Cop

but aye i should be looking at nl's new setup smh

i want to get rid of oracle altogher

was thinking IC, Voyeur, MD, RC, Tracker, PC ?

[SmartBomb]

2 is a good place for voyeur tbh, you're right

i guess role oracle sux as it's basically similar to x99 bulletproof vests, I guess, which is fair

[Capage]

Good to see this thread's alive. I've been working on my version of downsized d6. The working title is D4 because you get 4 rolls and the game lasts max 4 days. It's a 9er btw.
I think all possible rands are balance wise decent for town, some might be little more boring.

D4 (semi-open setup)

1-3 Investigative/Killing
1 1-shot vigilante
2 inno child
3 tracker
4 vigilante

4-6 Protective/Manipulative
1 bodyguard
2 doctor
3 roleblocker
4 jailkeeper

Wolves
1 town PR - 2 goons
2 town PRs - 1 goon, 1 pr

1-3 role cop
4-6 ???

I take tracker 9er and jk 9er as balanced and fun open setups for 9 players and I tried to add little variance, but I feel like wolf prs might be just little too strong? Overall, I tend to wolfside my setups a little.
Also with only two columns, there's not big space for guessing the variant and fake claims, but I don't care about that too much. I think that having five balanced variants is enough.

1. JK 9er - balanced immo and fun to play.
2. Vigilante 9er - definitely a wild one. Little swingy as it depends on the player randing vig a lot.
3. Rb + 1-shot Vigilante can get messy but PRs also win town the game if played well. Balanced against role cop imo. Little more swingy than I would like it to be, tho.
4. Tracker + Bodyguard - Bodyguard can give an outted tracker another action. I think role cop is fine at counter balancing it as it doesn't add much extra power to scum, just makes nights more interesting. It should prevent autos in f3s too.
5. Doc + inno is a balanced setup. Inno makes it little more likely for doctor to get that extra day. Role cop makes nights more interesting for scum mostly.

[Visorslash]

Good to see this thread's alive. I've been working on my version of downsized d6. The working title is D4 because you get 4 rolls and the game lasts max 4 days. It's a 9er btw.
I think all possible rands are balance wise decent for town, some might be little more boring.

D4 (semi-open setup)

1-3 Investigative/Killing
1 1-shot vigilante
2 inno child
3 tracker
4 vigilante

4-6 Protective/Manipulative
1 bodyguard
2 doctor
3 roleblocker
4 jailkeeper

Wolves
1 town PR - 2 goons
2 town PRs - 1 goon, 1 pr

1-3 role cop
4-6 ???

I take tracker 9er and jk 9er as balanced and fun open setups for 9 players and I tried to add little variance, but I feel like wolf prs might be just little too strong? Overall, I tend to wolfside my setups a little.
Also with only two columns, there's not big space for guessing the variant and fake claims, but I don't care about that too much. I think that having five balanced variants is enough.

1. JK 9er - balanced immo and fun to play.
2. Vigilante 9er - definitely a wild one. Little swingy as it depends on the player randing vig a lot.
3. Rb + 1-shot Vigilante can get messy but PRs also win town the game if played well. Balanced against role cop imo. Little more swingy than I would like it to be, tho.
4. Tracker + Bodyguard - Bodyguard can give an outted tracker another action. I think role cop is fine at counter balancing it as it doesn't add much extra power to scum, just makes nights more interesting. It should prevent autos in f3s too.
5. Doc + inno is a balanced setup. Inno makes it little more likely for doctor to get that extra day. Role cop makes nights more interesting for scum mostly.

jk 9er is fine
vigilante 9er is a little weak (vig 10er is the traditional one)
tracker + Bg could be a little townsided? possibly fine
inno child and doctor seems fine
1 shot vig and rb - little swingy as you say, possibly bit town sided

gimme a couple days to think on any improvements, but it seems reasonable enough as is

[Capage]

Ok, I got little bored at work and made this alternative version of my previous D4 design:

1-2 investigative
1 nothing (reroll)
2 inno child
3 neapolitan
4 tracker

3-4 protective
1 bodyguard
2 doctor
3 full cop + doc
4 jailkeeper

5-6 killing
1 nothing (reroll)
2 2-shot vigilante
3 vigilante
4 poisoner + healer

(If you're rerolling two dice, roll only one and add 2 to that group)

Wolves:
1 town PR: 2 goons
2 town PRs one goon, one PR

1-2 role cop
3-4 JK
5-6 tracker

I made it so you never get more than two prs. Mafia randing JK could make some setups little scumsided but it works as both an anti-claim mechanic and jailing outed PRs only keeps them in the game.

[ladd]

putting in poisoner mechanics in D6 is actually very interesting

don't have time to think if it actually works rn but worth a deeper thought

Not really a big fan of the d4 9er though

Mostly cause I don't relaly like 9ers with 2 PRs but also think bg/tracker is problematic as a setup as is vig 9er for different reasons

[LordQuas]

see I was missing the MD = Motion Detector part lol

[LordQuas]

Regarding d4,

1. Full cop + doc seems wildly powerful for both a 9er (if both PRs live past n1, d1 lynch and N1 kills are VT, and cop peek is a vt, then it's 5v2 with two strong PRs, a green peek, and basically mechanical auto)

2. What's the point in giving town a poisoner and a healer when the only use for the healer is to heal the poison?

[Capage]

LQ

1. Is a joke. You can't role that setup
2. It adds a confirmable town, who can stop a bad poisoner. I think that a possibility to talk about the poison and makes it more balanced than Vig 9er. Also, a poisoned wolf can keep fighting instead of lolcatting.

@ladd that's why I moved tracker one roll up in the second draft and paired vigilante with bodyguard (aka a claimable townie, who can help town getting another action in).
And yeah, open or semi open 9ers with more than one role are problematic as lynching a wolf makes it really easy for town and killing a PR or both is crucial for wolves. On the other hand, town only has 1-2 mislynches.

[Capage]

Ok,
I'm in need of some procrastination. Let's talk about all variants of the second draft of D4.

220
Inno Child + Doctor is an alright combination. The inclusion of inno child makes it more likely for Doctor to catch two kills. Jailkeeper isn't very useful for scum in this setup, but I could see it used as a counter claim to doctor. Role Cop and Tracker could make it little harsh for town if targeting doc n1.

310
Neapolitan + Bodyguard feels like a balanced setup. You can catch one wolf with your scan and their only chance is to cc bodyguard. The other wolf is relatively safe from this perspective. BG could also confuse wolf tracker if the slot manages to avoid claiming. Wolf prs give a slight edge to wolves, but they also make strategies more varied for them. Tracker and RC are both useful for them in this setup, JK could be used for messing up the claimed vigilante.

400
Tracker 9er is a classic

022
Doc + 2-shot vigilante feel little townsided as the vig gives town four kills in first two cycles. The vig's shots are very likely to end the game. In most cases this one would end in town sweeping the floor with wolves, if there weren't any mafia prs. A good use of these is crucial for covering ground and coming with a winning strategy (JK always jails the vig, RC and Tracker are used together with factional kill to cover as much ground as possible). Wolves trying to direct shot the second shot is an important part of the fun too.

040
JK 9er is another perfectly balanced classic.

013
Bodyguard might be just the right boost to make this a wee bit more balanced? Still it feel like the worst rand for town. The potential of full vig is great but wolves having a pr makes it wolf-sided as they have a good chance of discovering and killing the vig early.

004
Poisoner and Healer are an interesting 9er for me. There's need for covering them. It gives town a potential second kill, which might be a good seed for making the thread more active. All mafia roles seem to boost mafia about right. Role Cop is the most usable in this variant as it has a chance to uncover healer as well. Personally I like it.

Ok, I find vigs to bee wee problematic. They're making it way more swingy. Could it be interesting to experiment with vengeful here instead of x-shot vig?
I don't know how to replace full vig, tho.

[remember]

*snip*

*snip*

I just saw this/I recommend removing the vig entirely, otherwise I like the setup a lot. Wouldn't mind playing it if you ever decide to host it here.

[LordQuas]

Could make the 2-shot vig an odd vig, or if you think that's still too strong maybe an even one?

[LordQuas]

LQ

1. Is a joke. You can't role that setup
2. It adds a confirmable town, who can stop a bad poisoner. I think that a possibility to talk about the poison and makes it more balanced than Vig 9er. Also, a poisoned wolf can keep fighting instead of lolcatting.

@ladd that's why I moved tracker one roll up in the second draft and paired vigilante with bodyguard (aka a claimable townie, who can help town getting another action in).
And yeah, open or semi open 9ers with more than one role are problematic as lynching a wolf makes it really easy for town and killing a PR or both is crucial for wolves. On the other hand, town only has 1-2 mislynches.

Also
1. I have been bazinga'd
2. I see it, also gives town a claim. Seems pretty good. I think it might be slightly townsided then if anything (but like, VERY slightly) just since a lot of the wolf PRs would be very nerfed

[Visorslash]

*snip*

*snip*

I just saw this/I recommend removing the vig entirely, otherwise I like the setup a lot. Wouldn't mind playing it if you ever decide to host it here.

yeah i think cutting the vig is best hard to fit it any other way

not sure what to replace it with

lets try role cop

i guess the issues are: what to do with even numbered setups

(cause you have 1 tpr v 0 wpr, 2 tpr vs 1 wpr for 1 and 3 prs, for 2 prs do you do 1:1 or 2:0)


and: are the setups fun?

(also i wonder if 17er with 4 wolves is a better idea but not sure, might be a bit wolfsided?)

[Visorslash]

D6 Mafia

Roll a die 6 times and mark down the numbers. They correspond to the following roles.
1-3 = investigation
4-5 = preventative
6 = killing

1 I - Nothing
2 I - Voyeur
3 I - Role Cop
4 I - Motion Detector
5 I - Tracker
6 I - Parity Cop

1 P - Nothing
2 P - Doctor
3 P - Roleblocker
4 P - Jailkeeper
5 P - Roleblocker + Doctor
6 P - Jailkeeper + Doctor

1 K - Nothing
2 K - 1-Shot Vigilante
3 K - 2-Shot Vigilante
4 K - Vigilante
5 K - Vigilante + 1-Shot Vigilante
6 K - Vigilante + 2 Shot Vigilante

Mafia:

1 - Roleblocker
2 - Roleblocker
3 - Jailkeeper
4 - Role Cop
5 - Tracker
6 - Watcher

Roll a die (n-1) times, where n is the number of town power roles. Whatever number it lands on, mafia get that role.

Test Rand 1: 546414

Gives 4 P so Jailkeeper
Gives 1 I so -
Gives 1 K so -

Mafia Rand: 25
Tracker
Roleblocker

D6 with the 1 rand cut out

there are now no more 3 pr setups except for 2/2/2 but wolves know exactly what they are working wiht with 2/2/2 so i think its probably fine

what to do with 1 rands? (reroll? just do nothing?)

lot of setups like: just jailkeeper
just vigilante
just motion detector (just a tracker in this case)

thoguhts?

[ladd]

really like the idea of having one roll= nothing

Not re randing if it gets a 1 pr setup makes for some hard setups

I guess you could reroll

or maybe make 1K= 1 shot vig too, so you are only stuck with the risk of vig 13er (which is more unlikely compared to otehr 1 pr setups, though it's the worst one among them as well) wrt 1 PR

motion detector + 1 shot vig and jker + 1 shot vig should be playable

I had in mind other solutions too but they'd make the setup too complicated I think, better keep it easier

[ladd]

it could become jker+doc+1 shot vig too though

probably not a good solution

[mansnicks]

Can someone explain this part to me?

Test Rand 1: 546414

Gives 4 P so Jailkeeper
Gives 1 I so -
Gives 1 K so -

Mafia Rand: 25
Tracker
Roleblocker

How did the 2nd and 3rd TPR give 1 I and 1 K?
Rolling 6 and 4 should be 4 K, rolling 1 and 4 should be 4 I. What did I misunderstand?

I understand the Mafia part, just not how there are 2 rolls when the examples (wrongly?) says that town rolled 1 TPR..

Edit: also, I admit I understood non of this:

D6 with the 1 rand cut out

there are now no more 3 pr setups except for 2/2/2 but wolves know exactly what they are working wiht with 2/2/2 so i think its probably fine

what to do with 1 rands? (reroll? just do nothing?)

Just learnin

[ladd]

Can someone explain this part to me?

Test Rand 1: 546414

Gives 4 P so Jailkeeper
Gives 1 I so -
Gives 1 K so -

Mafia Rand: 25
Tracker
Roleblocker

How did the 2nd and 3rd TPR give 1 I and 1 K?
Rolling 6 and 4 should be 4 K, rolling 1 and 4 should be 4 I. What did I misunderstand?

I understand the Mafia part, just not how there are 2 rolls when the examples (wrongly?) says that town rolled 1 TPR..

the dice git rolled 6 times and it rolled:

5
4
6
4
1
4

for every time it rolled something between 1 and 3, it counts towards I (investigative prs)

It only happened once so you get 1I which corresponds to "Nothing"

For every time you get 4 or 5, it counts towards P (protective prs)

It happened 4 times so you get 4P whih is a Jailkeeper

For every time you roll 6, it counts tiwards K (killing)

It happened once so you get 1K which is again nothing

The setup becomes 1 Jker 9 vts vs 3 goons

[ladd]

and yes mafia should have had no prs simce town only gets one

[ladd]

Edit: also, I admit I understood non of this:

D6 with the 1 rand cut out

there are now no more 3 pr setups except for 2/2/2 but wolves know exactly what they are working wiht with 2/2/2 so i think its probably fine

what to do with 1 rands? (reroll? just do nothing?)

Just learnin

The only way town can have 3 prs is if it gets 2P 2I 2K, cause in all other scenarios you get max 2 prs

But if wolves see that they have 2 prs they know immediately what prs the village exactly has since it can only be 2P 2I 2K

[mansnicks]

Can someone explain this part to me?

Test Rand 1: 546414

Gives 4 P so Jailkeeper
Gives 1 I so -
Gives 1 K so -

Mafia Rand: 25
Tracker
Roleblocker

How did the 2nd and 3rd TPR give 1 I and 1 K?
Rolling 6 and 4 should be 4 K, rolling 1 and 4 should be 4 I. What did I misunderstand?

I understand the Mafia part, just not how there are 2 rolls when the examples (wrongly?) says that town rolled 1 TPR..

the dice git rolled 6 times and it rolled:

5
4
6
4
1
4

for every time it rolled something between 1 and 3, it counts towards I (investigative prs)

It only happened once so you get 1I which corresponds to "Nothing"

For every time you get 4 or 5, it counts towards P (protective prs)

It happened 4 times so you get 4P whih is a Jailkeeper

For every time you roll 6, it counts tiwards K (killing)

It happened once so you get 1K which is again nothing

The setup becomes 1 Jker 9 vts vs 3 goons

Thanks, now I understand. Whoops, I completely misunderstood on my own xD.

Edit: also, I admit I understood non of this:

D6 with the 1 rand cut out

there are now no more 3 pr setups except for 2/2/2 but wolves know exactly what they are working wiht with 2/2/2 so i think its probably fine

what to do with 1 rands? (reroll? just do nothing?)

Just learnin

The only way town can have 3 prs is if it gets 2P 2I 2K, cause in all other scenarios you get max 2 prs

But if wolves see that they have 2 prs they know immediately what prs the village exactly has since it can only be 2P 2I 2K

Yah ok, now I understand.

Well, I don't think there is a problem with mafia knowing their enemy when town is strong due to max TPR count. I think a problem could arise when somehow the town realizes they have this exact scenario. But that's too deep for me.

I googled that it's a 13p setup. So in the case of town getting only 1 TPR - the setup is like Cop 13'er but just instead of cop it's some other role.
Tbh I think it's not a problem because even Vanilla vs Vanilla is perfectly fine game in my opinion. Vanilla vs Vanilla should be the best games anyway. The essence of Mafia.


Edit: lol. Title says discussing MS setups, but when I googled that D6 setup MS said:

This was a setup that came from MU and was made by a user named Visorslash

[Capage]

Oh, I forgot about this for a while. I actually might try running d4 soon.