Fruit Salad Mafia

[sjg11]

@sjg11:
1) At 885, http://www.mafiauniverse.com/threads...307#post266307, you posted that your top three scum reads were me, Cuth, and IAWY. Has being proven wrong about two of the three made you re-think your mental processes at all? If so, how has this happened, and what have been the results? If not, why not?

Why would it make me re-think my processes? My reads weren't connected, they were separate, Cuth wasn't even really a scumread. Being wrong about one doesn't impact on the other one at all.

2) It seems that you have the most experience with UDC and Crunkus. Is that accurate? What do you think are typical or notable scum tells from either? 1064 http://www.mafiauniverse.com/threads...l=1#post267385 seems to imply that you have a hard time telling Crunkus's alignment. Is that accurate? Is that also true of UDC? And if you do find it especially hard to tell their alignments, what is your plan to figure that out?

Crunkus is my kryptonite when we're on opposite alignments. If I'm town and he's Mafia I really struggle to read him and if I'm Mafia and he's town he has a knack for forcing me into mistakes which no other player has.

Chuck... if you're town I worry about Chuck simply because he's not making any effort to look outside of you as a scumread. I'm trying (and failing) to gain reads among the rest of the town while it appears that Chuck has stopped trying at this point. That worries me a lot to be honest with you and it does fit with previous scum-Chuck games.

3) You say "We have no data on Orange, we have no clues about Orange's alignment"... but we do have SOME data. Specifically, we have Orange's vote for "information". Did you find that vote sincere? Why or why not? And are you opposed to any process resulting in an Orange lynch? Or just an overly easy one? If Orange is part of another two-wagon race, do you still feel like that would be non-productive? Also, you say "eventually either we'll have to lynch Orange or Orange will have to give us a reason not to." Assuming continued non-production, when is the proper time for this lynch to happen, in your mind?

It's impossible for me to read Orange. I don't know how he approaches the game and his inactivity is making it impossible for me to learn that to any reasonable level. I have no idea what his alignment is. I just think that, if he's town, we're getting nothing useful from his lynch. If he comes back, becomes active and gives people a reason to scumread him I have no issues with that lynch. I just feel that an Orange lynch is too easy when we don't have any clues as to his alignment I would be comfortable lynching on. I don't know when the proper time to lynch Orange is. I can't see the future.

[sjg11]

##Vote sjg11

Has been aggressive in a manner that feels wolfy.

[soah]

@soah, I meant why you didn't go into more detail when you first made the post.

I think that your assessment that you 'bent over backwards' to understand where I was coming from is an exaggeration. As I said previously, you didn't go into detail (when you said 'this is a terrible description of what I've done' (paraphrase)) about why my post was bad or really react to it in any way aside from 'this post has no basis with reality' (or something to that effect) which I find frustrating.

Before you ask, I am not expecting you to do that (to the extent that I wanted you to) now because I have read the other posts and realise that my read was bad, but I will get to that in another post.

It seems like you answered your own question, no? I didn't go into more detail because it was unnecessary because other people had already done it. I addressed the one major part of it which no one else had already responded to. (I continued to catch up in the thread before going back to deal with it. The issues with your post were so numerous and so blatant that further immediate elaboration wasn't necessary.)


And if I didn't bend over backwards to give you the benefit of the doubt, then how would you classify this post?

Based on how he picked Soah for rereading, he shouldn't have a pre-planned conclusion.

Be more specific, what about how he picked soah for rereading makes you think this?

The process was:

1.) Some scum may have hopped onto the Cuth wagon.

2.) Soah is a Cuth voter on whom Calv has no town lean.

3.) The post.

There's no preexisting scum lean on Soah. His stated reason for focusing on Cuth voters shouldn't prejudice him against Soah, either, because Soah doesn't fit his theory for why scum would be concentrated on the Cuth wagon ("it's the day one lynch, which is the easiest time for scum to hop onto mislynch and shrug it off"). Therefore, it shouldn't be a situation in which he's going in with a conclusion in mind and seeing if he can find evidence for it.

I think you're stretching this a bit too far, fwiw. He expressed a belief that he should look for wolves in the Cuthalion voters. Some of them are confirmed villagers. Others he had village reads on. That would prejudice him against me.

I don't agree with sjg11 either, that it would be reasonable for Calvary as a villager to have had a pre-planned conclusion, but prejudice against me is reasonable, if we accept the premise that he finds it inherently wolfy to have participated in a mislynch. (And, on that note, his basis isn't entirely absurd -- any group of 7 players would likely contain at least one wolf, and especially when the trait defining the group is that they voted together against a villager.)

What Calvary did was really bad, and there are obvious reasons for him to do it as a wolf, but I'm not sure that it means he has to be a wolf. Although I'm not really sure why I'm defending him. Meh.

Somehow your version of events here is:

"Anyway, he then makes a post to try and understand what I asked him, that's fine, but then follows this up with a vote on an inactive player. I don't understand why you'd brush off a post from someone who was trying to reach out to you in favour of an Orange vote. (which isn't going to yield a lot of alignment-indicative information since most players already have pre-existing views on policy lynches)

This is even weirder when you consider that he notes that my posts have 'strong scum motivations' (implying I am acting in a pro-scum manner) but he later cites 'Orange has given me no reason to think that he is town' and that their lurking hurts town."

For some reason you are ignoring the reasons that I gave for thinking that you could possibly be a villager (which, I might add, is becoming a recurring theme now since you also talked around the fact that I defended you on Day 1). You say that I brushed you off, even though I responded to you in several different ways. And I'm going to have to call straight-up bull$%#! on the idea that you were reaching out to me in any way when you made a case and voted me. And your analysis of my OR vote hasn't been particularly fair, either. She actually fits YOUR OWN THEORY of what the wolves would have done yesterday. I alluded to this in one of my posts: "She doesn't get a pass for showing up just long enough to vote for a villager without making any effort to do much of anything or to stick around to see what happens at end of day."

I don't know where you get the idea that I was trying to summarise everything that you had done in the game. That wasn't my intention as I am unused to looking at the bigger picture. I was pointing out things that you had done which I found scummy and thought could be discussed/ reacted to. I don't see why I would include anything that I found townie when my point is to see how you would explain the more suspicious things that you had done, and see if the way you reacted/ explained that meshed with the townie aspects of your play.

I don't know where you get that idea, either. It seemed pretty clear that the purpose of your post was to make a case against me.

The reason I jumped straight into responding to your posts and nothing else can be summarised with "I was rushed for time, saw that you posted, skimmed thread and responded to you before you disappeared." Basically I was looking for a chance to directly interact with you as that's more useful than other players speculating about it.

I was trying to respond to the points that you and traffic had made, hence the weird switch in tenses.

Should I have read the other players' posts first? Perhaps, but you were online at the same time I was so I figured it would make more sense to challenge you first before focusing on anyone else's input. Not much point to looking at anyone else's when the person I am accusing is around.

Umm, okay? But you quoted both a post from him and a post to me which told you that the things you said about me were wrong, and you didn't show any interest in figuring out what was going on with that.

Case in point: I made a post that pointed out a specific flaw in your case against me...

soah, you said that my read on traffic was flimsy because I wanted to promote discussion, yet you seem to take issue with smith for making a flimsy read at the same time in the day when I made mine. What, in your eyes, differentiates the way that smith and I made said reads that results in the reads of us that you have?

I've reread my own posts and I can't even figure out what you are referring to. My most substantial discussion of his early posting was as follows:

- In his first post he brags a bit about his skills from last night's turbo. Setting higher expectations of himself is villagery. The shoutout to Chuck was also a little bit villagery in that it's a thing villagers do sometimes to kick off some interactions and which wolves don't necessarily bother with.

- I also didn't take Luckbox's post seriously so it's reasonable that smith didn't either, regardless of his role. If smith is a wolf, it probably means that Luckbox and Cron are both villagers, otherwise I think he'd be less likely to interpret the post as a joke, especially with that level of confidence.

- I disliked the buildup to the Cron vote, in that it took several posts for him to get there and in the vote post he included a line which seemed to be casting doubt on the strength of his read. That seemed off. He later explained that he started out the post not intending to be casting a vote, but then he talked himself into it as he was writing the post. I find that statement to be believable, and it reduces my concern about the post.

- At one point, he writes: "I don't know whether it was a joke or a reaction test, but Luck's post was such obvious BS that he couldn't possibly have been serious as a scum read reason. So the question becomes, just a joke, or a reaction test?" I'm not sure why the question becomes that? It seems mostly irrelevant, unless you're considering the possibility that Luckbox was a wolf who was joking, but there's no further sign from him that he's interested at all in Luckbox's role, or in his motives behind that post. This struck me as possibly being fake -- writing words for the sake of writing words that look like they are doing something, but aren't actually a real thought.

- He goes harder on Cron than what I expect to see from wolves on Page 1 of a game, regardless of the skill level or personality of the wolf in question. It's just not something you see very much.

And the fact that I'm singling out this part of your post to respond to does not mean that anything else that you posted about me had any greater basis in reality. But others already pointed out that stuff on my behalf so I don't need to...

... and you ignored the content of my post while responding instead only to the last paragraph:

And the fact that I'm singling out this part of your post to respond to does not mean that anything else that you posted about me had any greater basis in reality. But others already pointed out that stuff on my behalf so I don't need to...

Why rely on other players to defend you? I'd rather see it in your own words as opposed to your lawyer's.

[sjg11]

I'm going to wait until Calvary re-votes/re-analyses (which he said he would do) before I decide whether I should switch or not.

I wasn't a huge fan of him ignoring a large part of the responses to his soah vote, but then again he did also say he hadn't read the whole thread at this point.

Like I said, I'm gonna wait and see what Calvary does next before making any decisions.

[soah]

Moreover, if your interpretation were correct then surely smith wouldn't be struggling to the extent which he has been struggling to answer Chuck's question about why smith maintained his interpretation was right. Smith would know what he was thinking at that time and why he maintained my read was wrong and his was right.

I'll concede this point.

I don't want to defend smith anymore.

I'm going out tonight and I'm not sure I'll be back before EOD, and there's a good chance my vote is going on him.

[Cron]

##Vote Crunkus

I think wagons should be smith and crunkus today. I haven't made up my mind between the two.

[trafficone]

While Smith being scum would lower my guesstimate of the number of scum on his wagon, I think 2-1 town is the likeliest distribution regardless of his role.

Even if smith is scum? I find it hard to believe it's Chuck in that world with the way he pushed and sjg was actively trying to get people on smith and off Cuth. Even made wagons even at the time he voted while I was pulling away from Cuth. Smith Crunkus most likely if s partner voted.

I tend to agree. Reviewing how the Smith wagon formed, Chuck and Sjg started pushing him pretty much from the start. Crunkus asked some questions of him and then joined in. I think there'd be pressure on Crunkus to get that one right if he's wolf/wolf with Smith. (And yes, getting it right is also consistent with Crunkus being a villager.) Plus, as per Soah's earlier post, Smith pushed back against the first two, but not Crunkus.

As for the other two, bussing happens. It's a good look, obviously, and we probably won't have enough lynches to get to them if it happened here.

[mhsmith0]

@soah: well, to channel UDC's argument against me, the benefit to the town in this game is that we'd know whether your read there was reasonable or just something you dumped on the board that you were hoping you wouldn't have to justify and now you're stonewalling because you can't justify it.

PS The benefit to Luck is that it might help him improve his game. If he's inadvertently sending cop signals, he might want to know (and if he's doing it intentionally, he might be pleased to see that he at least fooled someone). I completely fail to see how relevant commentary on his game play would "just screw with his ability to play games in the future". Especially combined with your "I don't know if he will find it useful or not" remark.

Like, I struggle to see how this makes sense. Pointing out that his meta made him a cop read may or may not be useful, but explaning it will just screw with him? Walk me through this. I really can't tell what you're thinking here.


@Cron: Why is it "absolutely critical" to know my alignment? It seems like your argument is primarily based on vote analysis wrt how many scum were on each D1 wagon. Exactly how confident are you in your read of (paraphrasing) "if MHS is town, then at least 2 voters on wagons, and likely none on MHS. if MHS is scum, then MHS +1-2 on Cuth"? I'll freely admit I have little history or confidence with this kind of macro vote analysis, but I recall in the CTR game AAR, Harb (scum) explicitly stated that he thought this sort of thing was pretty easy to manipulate as scum, and IIRC sjg more or less +1'd.

I'm also pretty hesitant about the idea of lynching for "information". It frees up everyone (scum included) from having to meaningfully engage with the merits, and gives them just as easy of a pass on accountability as a policy lynch. Hell, just look at the D1 votes on Cuth for "information" purposes. How much did that tell us? What "information" did we actually get from that process? And how did that enable us to learn anything useful about the people making those votes?

PS As far as who'd I'd shoot, see below. It's possible I'm being emotional about it, but I mean some of this stuff is just BAD.

I'll also explicitly note that I'm not at all interested in shooting traffic right now. Soah... last night I'd have said the same. Now I'm wondering. I don't feel like this was a difficult or unreasonable question. I feel like this is a question that needs to be answered. I'm not ready to say that it's an alignment-indicative moment just yet, but my confidence in this slot is severely wavering.

PPS Where did you specifically see sjg trying to pull people off of the cuth wagon and onto mine? He confronted me about my cuth vote, and I don't see that much else indicative. He got pissed at Luck for suggesting the wagons were bad (which is not a specific attempt to push me instead of Cuth), he went into a back and forth with soah, and he engaged with UDC (who was already voting me)... and that was kind of it. Unless you think that loudly and angrily restating his case was an active attempt.

Seriously, go back and ISO sjg from 610 http://www.mafiauniverse.com/threads...500#post264500 on. He directly worked on soah, and that was really it in terms of trying to directly engage with people on to prefer my wagon to Cuth's.

He even tossed in a shot at IAWY in 697 http://www.mafiauniverse.com/threads...127#post265127, which if taken seriously (I think unlikely at this stage but perhaps not impossible) could only have the OPPOSITE effect of pushing people onto my lynch, since UDC was already on that wagon.

Hell, he even seemed to be putting Cuth as his #3 suspect at 858 http://www.mafiauniverse.com/threads...307#post266307 (implied since all others were null), which hardly screams out "Cuth lynch is terrible and you MUST switch to MHS".

Frankly, re-reading sjg's EOD behavior makes it even more glaring that
##Vote sjg11 needs to go. His case on me was fundamentally weak, propped up primarily by vitriol, and he did NOT in fact aggressively campaign for my lynch. Which is just really bizarre given how much he represented that he thought that I was scum. If this is scum play I'm not impressed. But if this is town play? If this is town play, that's just HORRIBLE. And while I wasn't impressed by sjg last game (and suppose it's possible that this is actually his town play), this overall feels far more like a "tunnel" than a true tunnel.

[UpsideDownChuck]

On phone. Calvary I looked back at your initial soap vote and you talk a lot about what he isn't doing. Namely that he, according to you, never shows much suspicion of Crunkus and never takes into account that Cuth could have been inattentive (both untrue btw).

Now you're saying you'd barely read/skimmed his posts. I don't see how you responsibly make a case about what someone isn't doing if you haven't yet read large chunks of that they've done

[mhsmith0]

@Cron: Sell me on the idea that you truly believe sjg was honestly trying to get me lynched based on a case that he honestly thought was good. I'm going to have a hard time buying the it, but will at least give it a listen.

wrt the Crunkus wagon, I'm sypathetic if you have a solid case. Nothing about his actions jump out as AI for me either way right now, but I'm certainly sympathetic to the idea that there was scum on my wagon (and I'd feel a hell of a lot better about things if there was two, even if that would be a really weird way for D1 to have gone down)

[soah]

@soah: well, to channel UDC's argument against me, the benefit to the town in this game is that we'd know whether your read there was reasonable or just something you dumped on the board that you were hoping you wouldn't have to justify and now you're stonewalling because you can't justify it.

Whether my read was reasonable or not has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the game. I've explained all sorts of things about stuff that's really important in this game. Yet you're instead focusing on the one and only thing that doesn't actually mean anything.

[Cron]

I'm fairly confident there's at least 2 on both wagons, because I don't see Calvary and trafficone interact like that. Honestly, with no cop and only can afford 3 mislynches now, we are forced to make some assumptions based on what's least likely possible. I think Calvary trafficone being w/w is a least likely possible assumption we should ship.

[Cron]

@Cron: Sell me on the idea that you truly believe sjg was honestly trying to get me lynched based on a case that he honestly thought was good. I'm going to have a hard time buying the it, but will at least give it a listen.

wrt the Crunkus wagon, I'm sypathetic if you have a solid case. Nothing about his actions jump out as AI for me either way right now, but I'm certainly sympathetic to the idea that there was scum on my wagon (and I'd feel a hell of a lot better about things if there was two, even if that would be a really weird way for D1 to have gone down)

Im not town reading sjg. Would consider sjg and you as wagons instead of Crunkus.

[mhsmith0]

@Cron: Sell me on the idea that you truly believe sjg was honestly trying to get me lynched based on a case that he honestly thought was good. I'm going to have a hard time buying the it, but will at least give it a listen.

wrt the Crunkus wagon, I'm sypathetic if you have a solid case. Nothing about his actions jump out as AI for me either way right now, but I'm certainly sympathetic to the idea that there was scum on my wagon (and I'd feel a hell of a lot better about things if there was two, even if that would be a really weird way for D1 to have gone down)

Im not town reading sjg. Would consider sjg and you as wagons instead of Crunkus.

Sjg is my strong preference unless someone can make a really compelling case for this being reasonable town behavior. I'd entertain udc/crunkus cases too if someone really impresses me. Not there yet though.

[soah]

Describing the post where he voted for you as "a post from someone who was trying to reach out to you" was a neat touch. Wondering why you're not voting for him was aight. (From his point of view. I understood what you were doing.) The Rake defense is whatever if Rake is town, but I don't think Calv knows that Rake is scum.

[...]

Isoing you should give him a reason. You're trying much too hard to be an easy lynch.

Out of curiosity... what was I doing?

And what do you make of his marked departure from his posting style in previous gams?

[Cron]

@Cron: Sell me on the idea that you truly believe sjg was honestly trying to get me lynched based on a case that he honestly thought was good. I'm going to have a hard time buying the it, but will at least give it a listen.

wrt the Crunkus wagon, I'm sypathetic if you have a solid case. Nothing about his actions jump out as AI for me either way right now, but I'm certainly sympathetic to the idea that there was scum on my wagon (and I'd feel a hell of a lot better about things if there was two, even if that would be a really weird way for D1 to have gone down)

Im not town reading sjg. Would consider sjg and you as wagons instead of Crunkus.

Sjg is my strong preference unless someone can make a really compelling case for this being reasonable town behavior. I'd entertain udc/crunkus cases too if someone really impresses me. Not there yet though.

Okay

##Vote sjg11

[Mafia Host]

Fruit Salad Mafia Day 2 Votecount

Votes	Target	Voters (Posts in Phase)
2	OrangeRake	trafficone (31), LordJvK (16)
2	sjg11	mhsmith0 (7), Cron (23)
2	mhsmith0	sjg11 (46), UpsideDownChuck (25)
1	soah	Calvary (9)
1	trafficone	Luckbox Inc (15)
1	Calvary	soah (60)
2	Not voting	OrangeRake (3), Crunkus (41)

View Vote History

Day 2 ends at 11:02 PM EDT on Thursday, March 24th, 2016. There are 1458874980000 remaining.

Requested by mhsmith0 at 0 days, 7 hours, 27 minutes, 18 seconds remaining.

[mhsmith0]

@trafficone, @LordJvK, are either if you solid on orange wagon? If not, what is your honest opinion on sjg vs me?
@ people not on a leading wagon: make a strong case for your wagon as best or start consolidating

[soah]

I would really not like to see sjg11 get lynched.

[soah]

Frankly, re-reading sjg's EOD behavior makes it even more glaring that
##Vote sjg11 needs to go. His case on me was fundamentally weak, propped up primarily by vitriol, and he did NOT in fact aggressively campaign for my lynch. Which is just really bizarre given how much he represented that he thought that I was scum. If this is scum play I'm not impressed. But if this is town play? If this is town play, that's just HORRIBLE. And while I wasn't impressed by sjg last game (and suppose it's possible that this is actually his town play), this overall feels far more like a "tunnel" than a true tunnel.

This is a bunch of rhetoric with little substance. And I don't even agree with the substance it does have (that sjg hasn't aggressively campaigned for smith's lynch, that he was vitriolic).

[mhsmith0]

I would really not like to see sjg11 get lynched.

Because___?

[mhsmith0]

@all: seriously, ISO sjg, and ISO me. Tell me truly that his late d1 feels like this was legitimately town behavior. Because I simply can't.

[Calvary]

Ta dah.

Crunkus' post:

In regards to soah/ Crunkus, I am also seeing where half of my notifications come from with their paragraph wars. The fact that soah/ Crunkus kept talking about my posts long after it lost relevance, with no real conclusion or purpose to it, rubs me the wrong way because I don't think anything I did was worthy of that many posts or that level of elaboration on it. I've read that scum like to overstate town mistakes (e.g., Cuth) or bring up irrelevant details (e.g., my traffic town-read) and the examples I just noted seem like textbook examples of that. There's not much suspicion about the intentions of the other from both sides; both of them are content to beat the dead horse.

This like completely skips the actual content of any of the posts you are talking about.

It's not irrelevant until it's irrelevant. It's possible to have a readable moment on page one. We talked about it until it was clear to me that it wasn't an indicative moment. Just to be clear, you're saying you were just throwing something out there for discussion...something you didn't really believe or think through...to see what happened, correct? The issue was whether the process you were presenting was plausibly sincere. Are you saying you sincerely formed that town read? If you are saying that...please be clear about that. If you are not saying you sincerely formed that town read, make it clear now.

Yes it was a read meant to generate discussion. In fact, that's the main motivation behind most of my actions this game. I'm used to players constantly switching topics/ focus, personality clashes and more emotionally-based reads (such as tone), so that's why I try to kickstart discussion like that, because it's the easiest way to direct the chat onto something important.

But regardless, for you to decide to is irrelevant...and that the only way a player could have possibly believed otherwise...particularly when another player clearly did and that player (soah and UDC) were basically discussing it because they were trying to lay out why it didn't mean what I thought it meant (soah eventually did successfully) is something you may want to reconsider. I mean, I'm guessing had you been there YOU'D have thought it was pretty relevant that someone considered it to be a problem.

Perhaps. I was reading it many hours after I posted it and didn't check the time stamps, thus giving me the impression that it was a hashed-out topic or was being dredged up.

That's what we do in mafia, we talk about and develop our reads to determine whether there is anything to them or not. No?

I don't know if both of them are necessarily scum; both of them seem to enjoy writing giant posts over minor details like I am prone to doing, so it could be that one of them thought it was an interesting topic or whatnot.

I feel like this is a really strange position. Why would soah be scum from Cav's perspective here. It's almost like he didn't read the posts in question.

Can you expand on what you mean? It doesn't feel like it's directed at me so I am not sure what you'd like me to respond to here.

Chuck's post:

This isn't done, but I have to leave soonish so I am just going to post what I have so far.

##Vote soah

So he sets up the read on Cuth early on and never seems to break away from that. He pressures him about his commitment to the game, etc. Personally, I don't consider commitment to the game to be alignment-indicative unless someone has a tradition of posting less as scum or whatnot, but soah's reason for his continued focus on Cuth is because of his activity levels, lackluster posts and the fact that he posted in another game. It's not hard to think that someone might make inattentive posts while in that state because they are not fully concentrated on the game at hand but soah never takes that into consideration.

I am sensitive to this type of thing since in Red vs Blue, I was town, made some bad posts and then went AFK for a long period of time which meant that the scum jumped on that opportunity to mislynch me and I feel that a similar thing happened with Cuth.

In regards to soah/ Crunkus, I am also seeing where half of my notifications come from with their paragraph wars. The fact that soah/ Crunkus kept talking about my posts long after it lost relevance, with no real conclusion or purpose to it, rubs me the wrong way because I don't think anything I did was worthy of that many posts or that level of elaboration on it. I've read that scum like to overstate town mistakes (e.g., Cuth) or bring up irrelevant details (e.g., my traffic town-read) and the examples I just noted seem like textbook examples of that. There's not much suspicion about the intentions of the other from both sides; both of them are content to beat the dead horse.

I don't know if both of them are necessarily scum; both of them seem to enjoy writing giant posts over minor details like I am prone to doing, so it could be that one of them thought it was an interesting topic or whatnot.

soah, you said that my read on traffic was flimsy because I wanted to promote discussion, yet you seem to take issue with smith for making a flimsy read at the same time in the day when I made mine. What, in your eyes, differentiates the way that smith and I made said reads that results in the reads of us that you have?

So he sets up the read on Cuth early on and never seems to break away from that. He pressures him about his commitment to the game, etc. Personally, I don't consider commitment to the game to be alignment-indicative unless someone has a tradition of posting less as scum or whatnot, but soah's reason for his continued focus on Cuth is because of his activity levels, lackluster posts and the fact that he posted in another game. It's not hard to think that someone might make inattentive posts while in that state because they are not fully concentrated on the game at hand but soah never takes that into consideration.

This is probably the best quote I found when digging into the whole Cuthalion activity issue:

I came into thread, was in a rush, glanced through, said that I wasn't completely not following the thread, dropped the read i got, and left. Sorry.

And I have quoted things, yes. I have asked questions. I will put more effort in.

I still don't think I understand what happened when you made your first post. Your posts on the matter seem very contradictory.

Your first post said that you would be back later and that you were focusing on your other game.

After I observed that it seemed odd for you to come up with one simple read but not take a few minutes to give fuller thoughts, you said that you had only read the first 15 posts at the time.

After I asked you why you stopped at 15, you said that it was because you had to go. This appears to be a lie, because you continued posting in your other game after you made your initial post in here.

You then suggested that you "probably" had to do "something" which took you away from this game but only lasted for a few minutes, and then you went back to your other game.

After I said that you would have just read all of the posts in this thread if you'd wanted to, you seemingly agreed with me by saying, "Yes, if I had at that moment I would have." You ignored the part of my post in which I expressed incredulity at the idea that you can't seem to remember what it was that may have interrupted you.

You are now saying that you were already in a rush when you came into the thread in the first place. Were you in a rush for the same reason that you "had to go" and that you "probably" had to go do something and return a few minutes later? If you were in a rush even when you entered the thread, wouldn't you be more than just "probably" sure that you had to go do something for a few minutes?

Also, if you knew that you were in a rush but that you would only be gone for a few minutes, then why did you choose that exact moment to switch over to this game? And if you didn't actually care about this game and didn't want to take the time to read 80 posts, why did you bother at all with reading 15 of them and writing a post about it?

Is there any reason why I should see any of this as anything other than a wolf making an obligatory appearance in the thread with a piece of content and then making up an implausible alibi when called out on it?

Did you read this in your ISO? Your summary presented above doesn't seem very accurate in light of it.

I did, just not in a lot of depth. I saw that a lot of his D1 posts were focused on Cuth (this is something he says himself, so not inaccurate) for what I saw as game-irrelevant reasons (the fact that he picked up and expanded on Cuth being in two games and making bad excuses about it, etc etc) which struck me as scummy. But I didn't properly read the concluding part (where he links it back to Cuth's alignment) beforehand, which justifies why he was pushing Cuth as much as he did. Can't say I agree with it, but the case itself is not as simplistic as I thought it was.

I am sensitive to this type of thing since in Red vs Blue, I was town, made some bad posts and then went AFK for a long period of time which meant that the scum jumped on that opportunity to mislynch me and I feel that a similar thing happened with Cuth.

Cuth had a little over 120 posts and was the second highest poster

Point. I didn't check the post counts in relation to each other.

In regards to soah/ Crunkus, I am also seeing where half of my notifications come from with their paragraph wars. The fact that soah/ Crunkus kept talking about my posts long after it lost relevance, with no real conclusion or purpose to it, rubs me the wrong way because I don't think anything I did was worthy of that many posts or that level of elaboration on it. I've read that scum like to overstate town mistakes (e.g., Cuth) or bring up irrelevant details (e.g., my traffic town-read) and the examples I just noted seem like textbook examples of that. There's not much suspicion about the intentions of the other from both sides; both of them are content to beat the dead horse.

No real conclusion or purpose? I'm pretty sure Crunkus was arguing he had a valid basis for a scumread on you. And soah (and I) argued he didn't and in doing so were trying to get a better gauge on Crunkus's alignment as well as yours.

I'm not sure it's plausible as a sincere half-baked theory. Again, read my representation of that...note the difference between the represented theory and "lack of self-awareness" which I think is a stretch to apply in that situation....

I guess it's plausible though as something just thrown out to discuss. That's the bottom line. As such it's not an indicative moment, explainable either way. As you say, on to more content from him.

For those of you that are more familiar with Crunkus, is it weird for him to back down like this? I was expecting him to be more stubborn with it.

I don't think "not much suspicion about the intentions of others" is a fair conclusion to draw from this.

I don't know much about how meta is used or how the way people use meta reads can be read, so that's not how I would have read that quote. I know that soah has also talked about meta/ previous games a lot, but I don't think that is relevant to his alignment. In that case, I meant during the duration of the conversation.

Not a fan of this vote and dash. Feeling I get is that you went into the announced ISO reading with the intention to justify a vote on soah.

Chuck's post:

On phone. Calvary I looked back at your initial soap vote and you talk a lot about what he isn't doing. Namely that he, according to you, never shows much suspicion of Crunkus and never takes into account that Cuth could have been inattentive (both untrue btw).

Now you're saying you'd barely read/skimmed his posts. I don't see how you responsibly make a case about what someone isn't doing if you haven't yet read large chunks of that they've done

I'm not claiming that it was responsible. It wasn't. I am aware that the defense for my actions is "I didn't think it through/ was careless about posting" The only thing I can suggest (since I want to move away from the actual case itself) is to skim through his posts and you might see how I came to the conclusions I did.

But as far as reads go, I am going to take a step back from soah for now since I am at risk of jumping on everything he does as SCUM, LYNCH HIM in order to feel vindicated.

##Vote unvote

Because I am not stubborn enough to drag out a half-baked and careless case and distract anyone else.

I think these were the posts referred to.

[mhsmith0]

@Calvary: while you're here, read sjg's eod1. And his crappy case against me. And then vote him.

[Calvary]

@all: seriously, ISO sjg, and ISO me. Tell me truly that his late d1 feels like this was legitimately town behavior. Because I simply can't.

Then what do you make of his behaviour today, the fact that a lot of his posts have focused on you? Most of the reason for your vote seems to be based on what he did yesterday.

[Cron]

I would really not like to see sjg11 get lynched.

Smith is the other option

[mhsmith0]

@all: seriously, ISO sjg, and ISO me. Tell me truly that his late d1 feels like this was legitimately town behavior. Because I simply can't.

Then what do you make of his behaviour today, the fact that a lot of his posts have focused on you? Most of the reason for your vote seems to be based on what he did yesterday.

Honestly? Look at his posts touching on me. He's engaging with crunkus (who voted me), he's engaging with soah (again), he's restating his case, and that's about it. He's not meaningfully developing his case on me, he's not engaging with the rest of the board on the case against me. He floats a vote on me early D2, he whines about "It doesn't matter, this town isn't actually going to hold you accountable for this."... and then what does he do to actually get the town to move in the direction he wants? Not very much.

Does he engage with Cron about his opinion on me? Barely (and in the context of conditional reads of the wagon construction). Traffic? No. Anyone else? No. And this is town behavior???????????

[soah]

Null
Crunkus
I honestly can't tell. I probably do need to read a scum game of his to get a better comparison point. His interactions with me feel similar to what I've seen from town!Crunk in other games (minus the portion where things spiral), but I'm not really sure about his scum game. If someone wants to give me an especially good scum!Crunk game to look at I'll be happy to do so (possibly even D1 if it's urgent). But just one. It's a 36 hour game, there are limits to how much I can put into it, especially when it's entirely during the work week.

If his interactions with you feel the same as games where he was town, and if you have no points against him, then why is he a null read, and what makes it so hard for you to honestly tell?

Why is it that when he asked you to talk as much as possible about why you had been considering him for lynch, you instead didn't talk about it at all and just quoted the posts that he wanted you to explain?

Why don't you have any sort of read on him now? You say, essentially, that everything seems null. So you think that he would be certainly pushing to lynch you as a villager in this game? If so, why would he be misreading you?

[sjg11]

Frankly, re-reading sjg's EOD behavior makes it even more glaring that
##Vote sjg11 needs to go. His case on me was fundamentally weak, propped up primarily by vitriol, and he did NOT in fact aggressively campaign for my lynch. Which is just really bizarre given how much he represented that he thought that I was scum. If this is scum play I'm not impressed. But if this is town play? If this is town play, that's just HORRIBLE. And while I wasn't impressed by sjg last game (and suppose it's possible that this is actually his town play), this overall feels far more like a "tunnel" than a true tunnel.

Just a quick point, you're criticising me for not spending a lot of time deflating a competing wagon which popped up in the last 2 hours of the day when the deadline was at 4 AM here? And that's without going into my engagements on why you were a better lynch than anyone else at that point with various point. I mean, seriously, do you want me to switch time zones or something smith?

[sjg11]

@Cron: Sell me on the idea that you truly believe sjg was honestly trying to get me lynched based on a case that he honestly thought was good. I'm going to have a hard time buying the it, but will at least give it a listen.

wrt the Crunkus wagon, I'm sypathetic if you have a solid case. Nothing about his actions jump out as AI for me either way right now, but I'm certainly sympathetic to the idea that there was scum on my wagon (and I'd feel a hell of a lot better about things if there was two, even if that would be a really weird way for D1 to have gone down)

Im not town reading sjg. Would consider sjg and you as wagons instead of Crunkus.

Sjg is my strong preference unless someone can make a really compelling case for this being reasonable town behavior. I'd entertain udc/crunkus cases too if someone really impresses me. Not there yet though.

For what being genuine town behaviour? For daring to $%#!ing vote for you? Seriously I'm totally mystified here smith. For instance, how am I more tunneled than Chuck has been this game? Moreover, given your statement that I tunnel as town how on earth are you voting for me over Chuck at this point? You're not making any sense smith.

And how have I thrown vitriol your way this game? Sorry smith... but that just never happened.

[sjg11]

@all: seriously, ISO sjg, and ISO me. Tell me truly that his late d1 feels like this was legitimately town behavior. Because I simply can't.

What about my late Day One?

[mhsmith0]

Frankly, re-reading sjg's EOD behavior makes it even more glaring that
##Vote sjg11 needs to go. His case on me was fundamentally weak, propped up primarily by vitriol, and he did NOT in fact aggressively campaign for my lynch. Which is just really bizarre given how much he represented that he thought that I was scum. If this is scum play I'm not impressed. But if this is town play? If this is town play, that's just HORRIBLE. And while I wasn't impressed by sjg last game (and suppose it's possible that this is actually his town play), this overall feels far more like a "tunnel" than a true tunnel.

Just a quick point, you're criticising me for not spending a lot of time deflating a competing wagon which popped up in the last 2 hours of the day when the deadline was at 4 AM here? And that's without going into my engagements on why you were a better lynch than anyone else at that point with various point. I mean, seriously, do you want me to switch time zones or something smith?

There were 14 hours between 610 and EOD. In that time you made I believe 11 posts. In which of them did you act in a pro-town manner that legitimately reflected your stated desire to see me lynched? That's plenty of time to engage with the situation, to engage with the people who were town reading me, etc. Why didn't you choose to do those things?

[soah]

Null
Crunkus
I honestly can't tell. I probably do need to read a scum game of his to get a better comparison point. His interactions with me feel similar to what I've seen from town!Crunk in other games (minus the portion where things spiral), but I'm not really sure about his scum game. If someone wants to give me an especially good scum!Crunk game to look at I'll be happy to do so (possibly even D1 if it's urgent). But just one. It's a 36 hour game, there are limits to how much I can put into it, especially when it's entirely during the work week.

If his interactions with you feel the same as games where he was town, and if you have no points against him, then why is he a null read, and what makes it so hard for you to honestly tell?

Why is it that when he asked you to talk as much as possible about why you had been considering him for lynch, you instead didn't talk about it at all and just quoted the posts that he wanted you to explain?

Why don't you have any sort of read on him now? You say, essentially, that everything seems null. So you think that he would be certainly pushing to lynch you as a villager in this game? If so, why would he be misreading you?

@trafficone I want your take on this too. The middle line refers to the wall of text he posted about 12 hours ago. I had overlooked that part of it initially.

[mhsmith0]

@Cron: Sell me on the idea that you truly believe sjg was honestly trying to get me lynched based on a case that he honestly thought was good. I'm going to have a hard time buying the it, but will at least give it a listen.

wrt the Crunkus wagon, I'm sypathetic if you have a solid case. Nothing about his actions jump out as AI for me either way right now, but I'm certainly sympathetic to the idea that there was scum on my wagon (and I'd feel a hell of a lot better about things if there was two, even if that would be a really weird way for D1 to have gone down)

Im not town reading sjg. Would consider sjg and you as wagons instead of Crunkus.

Sjg is my strong preference unless someone can make a really compelling case for this being reasonable town behavior. I'd entertain udc/crunkus cases too if someone really impresses me. Not there yet though.

For what being genuine town behaviour? For daring to $%#!ing vote for you? Seriously I'm totally mystified here smith. For instance, how am I more tunneled than Chuck has been this game? Moreover, given your statement that I tunnel as town how on earth are you voting for me over Chuck at this point? You're not making any sense smith.

And how have I thrown vitriol your way this game? Sorry smith... but that just never happened.

847 http://www.mafiauniverse.com/threads...288#post266288
850 http://www.mafiauniverse.com/threads...298#post266298
yeah no vitriol there at all

[trafficone]

Out of curiosity... what was I doing?

Voting for someone who doesn't need to be your strongest wolf lean because you see other types of value in it - in this case, trying to motivate Rake. That's the villager explanation, anyway.

And what do you make of his marked departure from his posting style in previous gams?

Looking at the two town games in the database, he seems to have a wider view of the game. Could be down to lack of time to properly read the thread. He makes individual replies instead of multi-quotes. Maybe it's down to skimming to find the things he wants to respond to instead of reading everything and replying as he goes. He seems to get angry with others, especially in Red vs Blue. He's been pressured here, but there's no sign of an emotional response. He's patient and accommodating instead. This I can't explain.

How did I get myself on the hook to defend a wolf lean, anyway?

[sjg11]

@all: seriously, ISO sjg, and ISO me. Tell me truly that his late d1 feels like this was legitimately town behavior. Because I simply can't.

Then what do you make of his behaviour today, the fact that a lot of his posts have focused on you? Most of the reason for your vote seems to be based on what he did yesterday.

Honestly? Look at his posts touching on me. He's engaging with crunkus (who voted me), he's engaging with soah (again), he's restating his case, and that's about it. He's not meaningfully developing his case on me, he's not engaging with the rest of the board on the case against me. He floats a vote on me early D2, he whines about "It doesn't matter, this town isn't actually going to hold you accountable for this."... and then what does he do to actually get the town to move in the direction he wants? Not very much.

Does he engage with Cron about his opinion on me? Barely (and in the context of conditional reads of the wagon construction). Traffic? No. Anyone else? No. And this is town behavior???????????

This is just blatantly $%#!ing untrue. I've literally spent most of the day engaging with soah, who was reluctant to vote for smith at the time, about smith. It's just factually not true. I've literally spent all day stating and re-stating and re-stating and re-stating my case against you.

Why would I engage with cron's opinion? Cron doesn't seem to have an opinion on your scumminess and seems to want to lynch one of us for information. Not a lot I can do to engage with that other than to keep re-stating my $%#!ing case which I have done multiple times.

And what have you done to engage with me today? Literally nothing. Is that the actions of a townie who doesn't want to be mislynched and is trying to determine my alignment? No it isn't. And yet I'm the one to blame for my read not developing when you've done nothing to engage with me all day? It's crap smith, it's blatant crap from you. Again in this game.

[mhsmith0]

Null
Crunkus
I honestly can't tell. I probably do need to read a scum game of his to get a better comparison point. His interactions with me feel similar to what I've seen from town!Crunk in other games (minus the portion where things spiral), but I'm not really sure about his scum game. If someone wants to give me an especially good scum!Crunk game to look at I'll be happy to do so (possibly even D1 if it's urgent). But just one. It's a 36 hour game, there are limits to how much I can put into it, especially when it's entirely during the work week.

If his interactions with you feel the same as games where he was town, and if you have no points against him, then why is he a null read, and what makes it so hard for you to honestly tell?

Why is it that when he asked you to talk as much as possible about why you had been considering him for lynch, you instead didn't talk about it at all and just quoted the posts that he wanted you to explain?

Why don't you have any sort of read on him now? You say, essentially, that everything seems null. So you think that he would be certainly pushing to lynch you as a villager in this game? If so, why would he be misreading you?

wrt crunkus:
1) I haven't spent much time looking over his scum games
2) My understanding is his scum game is very good (this is based on reputation, not specific study)

Given that context, unless he does something that just massively stands out, reading him is going to be very difficult (and indeed, that's what I've found here). I'm not going to town read a known strong scum player for "seeming similar to some town games he's played".

[mhsmith0]

@all: seriously, ISO sjg, and ISO me. Tell me truly that his late d1 feels like this was legitimately town behavior. Because I simply can't.

Then what do you make of his behaviour today, the fact that a lot of his posts have focused on you? Most of the reason for your vote seems to be based on what he did yesterday.

Honestly? Look at his posts touching on me. He's engaging with crunkus (who voted me), he's engaging with soah (again), he's restating his case, and that's about it. He's not meaningfully developing his case on me, he's not engaging with the rest of the board on the case against me. He floats a vote on me early D2, he whines about "It doesn't matter, this town isn't actually going to hold you accountable for this."... and then what does he do to actually get the town to move in the direction he wants? Not very much.

Does he engage with Cron about his opinion on me? Barely (and in the context of conditional reads of the wagon construction). Traffic? No. Anyone else? No. And this is town behavior???????????

This is just blatantly $%#!ing untrue. I've literally spent most of the day engaging with soah, who was reluctant to vote for smith at the time, about smith. It's just factually not true. I've literally spent all day stating and re-stating and re-stating and re-stating my case against you.

Why would I engage with cron's opinion? Cron doesn't seem to have an opinion on your scumminess and seems to want to lynch one of us for information. Not a lot I can do to engage with that other than to keep re-stating my $%#!ing case which I have done multiple times.

And what have you done to engage with me today? Literally nothing. Is that the actions of a townie who doesn't want to be mislynched and is trying to determine my alignment? No it isn't. And yet I'm the one to blame for my read not developing when you've done nothing to engage with me all day? It's crap smith, it's blatant crap from you. Again in this game.

Are you even reading me at this point?

1) I say "He's engaging with crunkus (who voted me), he's engaging with soah (again), he's restating his case, and that's about it"
2) You say "I've literally spent most of the day engaging with soah, who was reluctant to vote for smith at the time, about smith. It's just factually not true. I've literally spent all day stating and re-stating and re-stating and re-stating my case against you. "

So basically you AGREE with me????

And there's a VERY GOOD REASON to engage with other players on me. If you think I'm scum, and you want me lynched, you need to change their minds. That means engaging with them on the subject. That means getting them to clarify and engage with their town reads on me, giving you a chance to change their minds, or vice-versa. If you truly wanted me lynched, you'd have done this. So why haven't you?

[sjg11]

Frankly, re-reading sjg's EOD behavior makes it even more glaring that
##Vote sjg11 needs to go. His case on me was fundamentally weak, propped up primarily by vitriol, and he did NOT in fact aggressively campaign for my lynch. Which is just really bizarre given how much he represented that he thought that I was scum. If this is scum play I'm not impressed. But if this is town play? If this is town play, that's just HORRIBLE. And while I wasn't impressed by sjg last game (and suppose it's possible that this is actually his town play), this overall feels far more like a "tunnel" than a true tunnel.

Just a quick point, you're criticising me for not spending a lot of time deflating a competing wagon which popped up in the last 2 hours of the day when the deadline was at 4 AM here? And that's without going into my engagements on why you were a better lynch than anyone else at that point with various point. I mean, seriously, do you want me to switch time zones or something smith?

There were 14 hours between 610 and EOD. In that time you made I believe 11 posts. In which of them did you act in a pro-town manner that legitimately reflected your stated desire to see me lynched? That's plenty of time to engage with the situation, to engage with the people who were town reading me, etc. Why didn't you choose to do those things?

I literally spent all 14 hours discussing the case on you with people. I spent the whole 14 hours talking to you and re-stating my case. On what planet is that not $%#!ing working to get you lynched? The only reason I was absent for the hours leading up to the deadline is because the deadline was at 4 in the $%#!ing morning. Of course I was absent for the crucial hours when the Cuth wagon built up because the deadline was at 4 in the $%#!ing morning.

Hell, after a 7 hour car journey and a brief hello to my family who I haven't seen in a $%#!ing month, the first thing I did at 1 AM was to log in and make some posts before deadline before going to bed. More importantly, if you were actually evaluating me you would see me mentioning that I was travelling about 95 times in the period you're talking about. Something you have time and again ignored despite me mentioning it time and again and telling everyone I was travelling the night before.

Your case is $%#! smith. It's really, really poor.

[sjg11]

Im not town reading sjg. Would consider sjg and you as wagons instead of Crunkus.

Sjg is my strong preference unless someone can make a really compelling case for this being reasonable town behavior. I'd entertain udc/crunkus cases too if someone really impresses me. Not there yet though.

For what being genuine town behaviour? For daring to $#@!ing vote for you? Seriously I'm totally mystified here smith. For instance, how am I more tunneled than Chuck has been this game? Moreover, given your statement that I tunnel as town how on earth are you voting for me over Chuck at this point? You're not making any sense smith.

And how have I thrown vitriol your way this game? Sorry smith... but that just never happened.

847 http://www.mafiauniverse.com/threads...288#post266288
850 http://www.mafiauniverse.com/threads...298#post266298
yeah no vitriol there at all

There's no vitriol in either of those posts.

[mhsmith0]

Hell, you even state outright that all you're doing is just restating your case. Why in the world would anyone find the same argument persuasive the 10th time when they didn't find it persuasive the 1st? How is this a valid town strategy or approach?

[mhsmith0]

Frankly, re-reading sjg's EOD behavior makes it even more glaring that
##Vote sjg11 needs to go. His case on me was fundamentally weak, propped up primarily by vitriol, and he did NOT in fact aggressively campaign for my lynch. Which is just really bizarre given how much he represented that he thought that I was scum. If this is scum play I'm not impressed. But if this is town play? If this is town play, that's just HORRIBLE. And while I wasn't impressed by sjg last game (and suppose it's possible that this is actually his town play), this overall feels far more like a "tunnel" than a true tunnel.

Just a quick point, you're criticising me for not spending a lot of time deflating a competing wagon which popped up in the last 2 hours of the day when the deadline was at 4 AM here? And that's without going into my engagements on why you were a better lynch than anyone else at that point with various point. I mean, seriously, do you want me to switch time zones or something smith?

There were 14 hours between 610 and EOD. In that time you made I believe 11 posts. In which of them did you act in a pro-town manner that legitimately reflected your stated desire to see me lynched? That's plenty of time to engage with the situation, to engage with the people who were town reading me, etc. Why didn't you choose to do those things?

I literally spent all 14 hours discussing the case on you with people. I spent the whole 14 hours talking to you and re-stating my case. On what planet is that not $%#!ing working to get you lynched? The only reason I was absent for the hours leading up to the deadline is because the deadline was at 4 in the $%#!ing morning. Of course I was absent for the crucial hours when the Cuth wagon built up because the deadline was at 4 in the $%#!ing morning.

Hell, after a 7 hour car journey and a brief hello to my family who I haven't seen in a $%#!ing month, the first thing I did at 1 AM was to log in and make some posts before deadline before going to bed. More importantly, if you were actually evaluating me you would see me mentioning that I was travelling about 95 times in the period you're talking about. Something you have time and again ignored despite me mentioning it time and again and telling everyone I was travelling the night before.

Your case is $%#! smith. It's really, really poor.

"with people". With TWO people, chuck and soah, and chcuk was already on the wagon. You were time limited, fine. I get that. How has your choice in using the time you had been town positive, yesterday OR today?

[soah]

How did I get myself on the hook to defend a wolf lean, anyway?

I had the impression that you had changed your mind on him. Carry on, then.

[sjg11]

And there's a VERY GOOD REASON to engage with other players on me. If you think I'm scum, and you want me lynched, you need to change their minds. That means engaging with them on the subject. That means getting them to clarify and engage with their town reads on me, giving you a chance to change their minds, or vice-versa. If you truly wanted me lynched, you'd have done this. So why haven't you?

soah's literally spent all $%#!ing day defending you and trying to push other cases. I have literally spent all day trying to convince soah that I'm right and he's wrong. Basically, engaging with someone who's disagreeing with the case to change their mind. I've literally spent all day doing what you've been accusing me of not doing all $%#!ing day.

And what of Chuck? He's engaged less than I have today and done so yesterday. He's been more tunneled than I have been. According to you I tunnel as town.

There's no reason why you're scumreading me here smith in comparison to Chuck and Crunkus. There just isn't.

[sjg11]

Hell, you even state outright that all you're doing is just restating your case. Why in the world would anyone find the same argument persuasive the 10th time when they didn't find it persuasive the 1st? How is this a valid town strategy or approach?

Because people don't always get the message the first time you say it. To make people understand in this game, particularly in a game like this when most of the town seem to be skimming the thread, you have to repeat your point AGAIN and AGAIN and $%#!ing AGAIN to make some people actually get the message.

[trafficone]

If his interactions with you feel the same as games where he was town, and if you have no points against him, then why is he a null read, and what makes it so hard for you to honestly tell?

Why is it that when he asked you to talk as much as possible about why you had been considering him for lynch, you instead didn't talk about it at all and just quoted the posts that he wanted you to explain?

Why don't you have any sort of read on him now? You say, essentially, that everything seems null. So you think that he would be certainly pushing to lynch you as a villager in this game? If so, why would he be misreading you?

@trafficone I want your take on this too. The middle line refers to the wall of text he posted about 12 hours ago. I had overlooked that part of it initially.[/QUOTE]

Re the middle portion, in the wall of text Smith is arguing that he wasn't considering voting for Crunkus beyond asking people pushing Crunkus to elucidate why they were doing it. He didn't answer the question because he was challenging the premise.

[mhsmith0]

And there's a VERY GOOD REASON to engage with other players on me. If you think I'm scum, and you want me lynched, you need to change their minds. That means engaging with them on the subject. That means getting them to clarify and engage with their town reads on me, giving you a chance to change their minds, or vice-versa. If you truly wanted me lynched, you'd have done this. So why haven't you?

soah's literally spent all $%#!ing day defending you and trying to push other cases. I have literally spent all day trying to convince soah that I'm right and he's wrong. Basically, engaging with someone who's disagreeing with the case to change their mind. I've literally spent all day doing what you've been accusing me of not doing all $%#!ing day.

And what of Chuck? He's engaged less than I have today and done so yesterday. He's been more tunneled than I have been. According to you I tunnel as town.

There's no reason why you're scumreading me here smith in comparison to Chuck and Crunkus. There just isn't.

Yes there is. And I've stated it.

Frankly, my read on you is that you've been "trying" JUST hard enough to make it look like an honest effort, but not hard enough to actually make the mislynch happen and have to deal with the fallout. You're not engaging in strategies that are likely to actually drive the mislynch, you're simply trying to look like you are. And that's scum play. Flat out.

[sjg11]

Just a quick point, you're criticising me for not spending a lot of time deflating a competing wagon which popped up in the last 2 hours of the day when the deadline was at 4 AM here? And that's without going into my engagements on why you were a better lynch than anyone else at that point with various point. I mean, seriously, do you want me to switch time zones or something smith?

There were 14 hours between 610 and EOD. In that time you made I believe 11 posts. In which of them did you act in a pro-town manner that legitimately reflected your stated desire to see me lynched? That's plenty of time to engage with the situation, to engage with the people who were town reading me, etc. Why didn't you choose to do those things?

I literally spent all 14 hours discussing the case on you with people. I spent the whole 14 hours talking to you and re-stating my case. On what planet is that not $#@!ing working to get you lynched? The only reason I was absent for the hours leading up to the deadline is because the deadline was at 4 in the $#@!ing morning. Of course I was absent for the crucial hours when the Cuth wagon built up because the deadline was at 4 in the $#@!ing morning.

Hell, after a 7 hour car journey and a brief hello to my family who I haven't seen in a $#@!ing month, the first thing I did at 1 AM was to log in and make some posts before deadline before going to bed. More importantly, if you were actually evaluating me you would see me mentioning that I was travelling about 95 times in the period you're talking about. Something you have time and again ignored despite me mentioning it time and again and telling everyone I was travelling the night before.

Your case is $#@! smith. It's really, really poor.

"with people". With TWO people, chuck and soah, and chcuk was already on the wagon. You were time limited, fine. I get that. How has your choice in using the time you had been town positive, yesterday OR today?

And soah was the main leader of another wagon. How's me trying to talk to him, and spending my time re-stating my case and telling people to vote for me, not a productive use of the limited time I had?

And this from someone who has spent all of his engagement with me complaining about the effects of having limited time?

No, don't buy it as sincere.

[soah]

smith,

Do you appreciate the irony in that your current case against sjg applies far more to yourself than to him?

You had sjg11 as your top wolf read on Day 1, and then you did nothing at all with it for the first ~29 hours of Day 2, only to come back strong on it out of the blue without much visible reason for the huge pause in the middle.

Between the two of you, which is really the one who is "not meaningfully developing his case on [the other person], he's not engaging with the rest of the board on the case"?

[sjg11]

And there's a VERY GOOD REASON to engage with other players on me. If you think I'm scum, and you want me lynched, you need to change their minds. That means engaging with them on the subject. That means getting them to clarify and engage with their town reads on me, giving you a chance to change their minds, or vice-versa. If you truly wanted me lynched, you'd have done this. So why haven't you?

soah's literally spent all $#@!ing day defending you and trying to push other cases. I have literally spent all day trying to convince soah that I'm right and he's wrong. Basically, engaging with someone who's disagreeing with the case to change their mind. I've literally spent all day doing what you've been accusing me of not doing all $#@!ing day.

And what of Chuck? He's engaged less than I have today and done so yesterday. He's been more tunneled than I have been. According to you I tunnel as town.

There's no reason why you're scumreading me here smith in comparison to Chuck and Crunkus. There just isn't.

Yes there is. And I've stated it.

Frankly, my read on you is that you've been "trying" JUST hard enough to make it look like an honest effort, but not hard enough to actually make the mislynch happen and have to deal with the fallout. You're not engaging in strategies that are likely to actually drive the mislynch, you're simply trying to look like you are. And that's scum play. Flat out.

You've not $%#!ing stated it. You've never talked about Chuck, you've never $%#!ing engaged with him and you've never made any $%#!ing effort to do so. I've not engaged any less than Chuck has today or yesterday. You singling me out is blatant bull$%#! and blatant nonsense. It's literally one of the worst arguments that has ever been lobbed at me during a game of Mafia.