Setup Discussion: Matrix12 (Proposed Season 3 Format)

[Apoc]

Like. Watchers are good in games where the NK is not assigned. They are outrageous in games where it is.

I like everything else you did though, making the setup not obvious for both teams is a core concept of even having a matrix imo

[Stork]

Like. Watchers are good in games where the NK is not assigned. They are outrageous in games where it is.

I like everything else you did though, making the setup not obvious for both teams is a core concept of even having a matrix imo

In games with unassigned night kills they just serve to clear other town roles (for the most part), which the town roles can do themselves (mostly)

And it doesn't happen that often so it is kinda not that important or impactful anyway.

[Apoc]

I dont know. I feel like i've seen a lot of wolves outted because they were watched angelling a bro, strongmanning/vigging a villager.

I feel like choosing watch/angel targets is easier than choosing track/peek targets, maybe that's just me?

[Apoc]

Maybe watchers arent too good...but they're just swingier than the others?

[Apoc]

Maybe watchers arent too good...but they're just swingier than the others?

In games where the NK is not watchable i mean

[McGinty]

In honour of the org's stunning achievement in this year's final, next year should be a GeneralHankerchief-style vanilla game:

*No powers except the scum kill.
*No reveals on death.
*Players can continue to post after death.

Simple, elegant, inherently balanced...

Everybody spending the whole tournament ranting about how much they hate it would be a small price to pay, imo.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Everybody spending the whole tournament ranting about how much they hate it would be a small price to pay, imo.

For me that would be a benefit, not a drawback.

[McGinty]

For me that would be a benefit, not a drawback.

FFS, the idea was to pretend we're not horrible sadists.

It's no wonder the town caught you so easily...

[Thingyman]

Like. Watchers are good in games where the NK is not assigned. They are outrageous in games where it is.

I like everything else you did though, making the setup not obvious for both teams is a core concept of even having a matrix imo

I echo this. I mostly like what you did, with the exception that you are definitely underestimating the power of a Town Watcher.

[Panther]

ya the beauty of matrix 6 is nobody knows the setup d1 and mafia don't know the setup until there's at least one PR claim and/or flip

haven't gone through soah's matrix, but if it accomplishes that, then that's great

[Lissa]

Reflex looking at soahs setup is it would... not be enjoyable to wolf in

stuff like cop/watcher and doc/watcher just makes me flinch regardless of the wolf countermeasures. not sure if I underestimate the counters. but I think either way setup would place an extreme importance on pr hunting

Ones with rb are maybe ok but F with no rb and cop/watcher looks spectacularly townsided - can't kill outed cop night they out without very high chance of outing a wolf

agree that less transparent setup is good in general though

[yogsloth]

However, I still think the setup might be slightly pro mafia overall, so I welcome any thoughts.

I don't think it's especially pro-mafia.

The nature of the tourney itself was pro-mafia, as the elite Town players were robbed of their meta tools and burdened with ineffective Townies. If anything, I'd say it was generally a Town-centric matrix. In games without really low-level or destructive Town players in them, Town wrecked it. But any game with really high-level players will probably be Town-centric as a matter of inevitability. All you have to do is give Town one great PR move and... you just saw what happened.

I think for a Championship tourney, it worked fairly well overall. The fewer PRs the better to try and sort the best players.

Just my general spitballing.

[mhsmith0]

I'd actually really enjoy throwing together a legitimate matrix setup that would work for 13p (10v3), which was what I'd taken a first stab at last night. I guess my questions to people more experienced than I would be...

1) Can you give me 2-4 independent setups that you'd consider balanced in a 10v3?

N0 cop otherwise mountainous is the site standard, and since it (I think) leans a bit town-sided in full open, it's probably fine for semi-open. But I'd like to know whether there's a decent N0cop+x on town vs y powers on mafia (so column A doesn't just = row 1), and even more importantly whether there are some pretty good non-cop semi-open setups that you guys enjoy and think balanced.

Personally I find cop roles to be a bit boring; I like powers where you have to work harder to make the useful as opposed to "don't get NK'd and target a good player who you think will survive the night", so 10v3 setups that are non-cop are more my preference.

2) Do you guys think it would be fun or not fun to make one line/row of a 13p matrix multiball? If you have a 5x5 ish matrix and make 2 of the 10 setups 9v2v2 (or maybe an SK instead), does that add to the fun or detract from it? And what would be balanced overall for multiball or an SK game?

[yogsloth]

I've come around to the idea of just $%#!-canning cops altogether.

It's fine for turbos, but for games where you're really trying to test your abilities it's just a busted mechanic.

I'd actually love to see a role-less tourney. That would be epic.

Probably everybody else would hate it, though.

[mhsmith0]

I've come around to the idea of just $%#!-canning cops altogether.

It's fine for turbos, but for games where you're really trying to test your abilities it's just a busted mechanic.

I'd actually love to see a role-less tourney. That would be epic.

Probably everybody else would hate it, though.

I'm playing around w a 13p matrix where one of the row/columns is -1 member to mafia and it's 11v2 and pretty close to mountainous (apparently straight 11v2 is a no-no i guess). Similar to what I posted last night but a bit tweaked.

[Apoc]

I've come around to the idea of just $%#!-canning cops altogether.

It's fine for turbos, but for games where you're really trying to test your abilities it's just a busted mechanic.

I'd actually love to see a role-less tourney. That would be epic.

Probably everybody else would hate it, though.

Season 1 was Vanilla.

I'd say make every season vanilla, but "that's not fun" or something

[mhsmith0]

Current draft for 13p

	A	B	C	D	E	F
1	Town Alignment Cop with n0	Mafia Roleblocker	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon	Vanilla Townie	Town Doctor
2	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman	Town Jailkeeper	Mafia Goon	Town Innocent Child	Vanilla Townie	Vanilla Townie
3	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon	Town Masons x2	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Roleblocker	Vanilla Townie
4	Mafia Goon	Vanilla Townie	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman	Town Tracker	Town Innocent Child	Vanilla Townie
5	Vanilla Townie	Vanilla Townie	Vanilla Townie	Town Doctor	Mafia -1 Member	Mafia Roleblocker
6	Vanilla Townie	Town Doctor	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Roleblocker	Vanilla Townie	Werewolf Goon + Roleblocker

Mafia -1 member means it's 11v2 (one with an IC and nothing else, one with a doc and nothing else for town - in either case it's not super hard for the mafia to find and kill said member, so it's a limited advantage for town but at least isn't exactly mountainous since people seemingly don't like that).

The grid also has F and 6 9/2/2 multiball setups with two town docs vs a mafia and wolf team with goon + roleblocker. Probably there's a different/better way to structure multiball but I thought that was a decent first pass.

One notable thing here is that there are a LOT of doctors here. That may be too much of an over-emphasis on doctors, but I think doctors are a reasonably fun role that also require energy and thought to be useful, and you have the added bonus of someone randing doctor being almost completely unaware of the actual setup.

Ditto mafia teams; a 2-man goon+RB team doesn't even know if it's multi-ball or single ball, although the ability of the wolves to know they're wolves means that maybe the mafia should be notified if it's multiball or not (I'm flexible on that point - the other alternative is to rand whether the mafia is called mafia or wolves I guess).

And all scum 3-man teams are goons + RB or goons + 1-shot strongman, which means that there's very limited setup info available to them. And the strongman is useful in setups with JK's or docs, but is explicitly useless in the cop/mason setups (RB also useless against masons as well).

Anyway, that's a bit rough, but I THINK that for the most part these are reasonably balanced and, while obviously not vanilla, run much closer to vanilla than role madness type setups. Thoughts?

[Panther]

3 40 player mashes. Players get to vote 10 from each game through. Former champions get to vote the final 10 from among all 3 games, no wild card needed. Finale is 40 player mash.

There's some fun for your asses

[mhsmith0]

One other thought: on MS there's an explicit open setup, Fire/Ice Mafia, where it's 9/2/2 multiball with a doc and the two kill flavors cancelling (i.e. fire+ice shot on same slot = no kill). Something like that could also be fun but I don't think the modbot is setup to run with it at this point (whereas I think it shouldn't be as hard to just plug in a wolf team... I think anyway).

[Apoc]

3 40 player mashes. Players get to vote 10 from each game through. Former champions get to vote the final 10 from among all 3 games, no wild card needed. Finale is 40 player mash.

There's some fun for your asses

It would be a nice change of pace to do an entire series in a month

[soah]

Like. Watchers are good in games where the NK is not assigned. They are outrageous in games where it is.

I like everything else you did though, making the setup not obvious for both teams is a core concept of even having a matrix imo

I echo this. I mostly like what you did, with the exception that you are definitely underestimating the power of a Town Watcher.

Could this be resolved just by placing limitations on the Watcher? Either limited shot, or can't target the same player consecutively.

[Panther]

3 40 player mashes. Players get to vote 10 from each game through. Former champions get to vote the final 10 from among all 3 games, no wild card needed. Finale is 40 player mash.

There's some fun for your asses

It would be a nice change of pace to do an entire series in a month

I'm not even joking that I'd like to do that. Maybe make the finale more "voteable" by only advancing 5 from each mash or something and judges choose 6 total wildcards from the 3 mashes and you have a 21 player finale with something like the Pirates or Transformers setup

[Panther]

Like. Watchers are good in games where the NK is not assigned. They are outrageous in games where it is.

I like everything else you did though, making the setup not obvious for both teams is a core concept of even having a matrix imo

I echo this. I mostly like what you did, with the exception that you are definitely underestimating the power of a Town Watcher.

Could this be resolved just by placing limitations on the Watcher? Either limited shot, or can't target the same player consecutively.

Maybe even night? Even then I think some of those setups are too town-sided. But I conceptually like that you kept the roleset limited so that there's a lot of "overlap" for lack of a better word. The ambiguity is what makes a matrix strong, and you need a limited roleset to do that

[Panther]

Watcher Tracker Doctor

vs Rolecop Roleblocker

watcher doctor combo is rough on wolves imo. esp if the roleblocker is lynched before they're found. watcher can claim and be protected by doc while watching doc and that's a free night for both of them. idk that one just stood out to me

[soah]

Watchers are OP. Not being able to kill off the best players is just too town sided.

The equivalent would be adding a rule to basketball that says if a team double teams a player, that player's team gets to play with 6 players.

I understand you probably get N1 killed quite a bit, but I think Discouraging the winning strategy is not good design.

Good players get killed. Bad players get lynched. That's just how it works.

I think that this is kind of a self-balancing thing, though? There's far more of a difference between a good player and a bad player than there is between a good player and a really good player. The deterrent effect of the Watcher will be strongest in games with many bad/inactive players, which are the games where the town needs a boost. In games where the players are similar in terms of skill and engagement, it's harder for the Watcher to predict who the most desirable nightkill will be and the mafia don't give up very much equity by making a non-preferred kill.

[soah]

None of you guys would be suggesting qualifying games with larger player counts if you'd seen what happened in Season 1 with just 25 players per game. imo there has been a strong negative correlation between game size and the ability of the players to overcome culture clash.

[soah]

Watcher Tracker Doctor

vs Rolecop Roleblocker

watcher doctor combo is rough on wolves imo. esp if the roleblocker is lynched before they're found. watcher can claim and be protected by doc while watching doc and that's a free night for both of them. idk that one just stood out to me

Mafia trade their weakest member to get rid of two power roles in consecutive nights.

[wvw-jelte]

None of you guys would be suggesting qualifying games with larger player counts if you'd seen what happened in Season 1 with just 25 players per game. imo there has been a strong negative correlation between game size and the ability of the players to overcome culture clash.

I personally think that 17 players was a nice fit.
You are able to get to know each other the first 24 hours and then can better decide who of the poor fools you want to lynch.
But serious 17 players is a good amount for games like this.

[mhsmith0]

@soah: off the cuff, I think
C, 2, 3, 6 are scum sided
1, 4, 5 are town sided
Off the cuff I think the rest are balanced? Not sure though but that's my first take from your 17p matrix.

[mhsmith0]

Anyone have thoughts / critiques of my 13p matrix?

[mhsmith0]

Actually masons x2 may be too little town power in my 13p matrix. Maybe masons x3? Or masons x2 + an ic?

[Thingyman]

None of you guys would be suggesting qualifying games with larger player counts if you'd seen what happened in Season 1 with just 25 players per game. imo there has been a strong negative correlation between game size and the ability of the players to overcome culture clash.

This. We will never do 20+ again, sorry :P

[mhsmith0]

Actually the town win-rate in 11v2 mountainous is less than I expected. Perhaps 12v2.

This is worse than 11v2, because it's evens instead of odds, and town has no way to prevent a kill or get an extra kill (i.e. vig shot).

[Thingyman]

Actually the town win-rate in 11v2 mountainous is less than I expected. Perhaps 12v2.

"10:2 Mountainous has long been considered a balanced setup that relies exclusively on player skill. The balance of this setup is highly suspect, though, as the Town's theoretical win rate is only 33.2% - almost the same as Town winning a 2:1 LyLo.
11:2 Mountainous has an expected win rate of 36.2%, which is better, but not nearly what public expectation was."

But this is purely theoretical. In practice, I expect town to do better, since they aren't voting randomly.

Does mafiascum really not have actual stats on this? They must've run it a bunch of times, or no?

[mhsmith0]

They rarely run 11v2 mountainous apparently. So few stats, from what I can tell.

[mhsmith0]

I stand by what I wrote a few posts above. I guess Stork summed it up pretty well: the balance seems okay but I don't think it really achieves what you want from a game with a semi-open roleset.

I personally just wanted balance, but I take your point.

Do you think you'd be able to draft up a v.2, taking some of the suggestions in your post above?

Okay, I went ahead and put something together:

Matrix12

	A	B	C	D	E	F
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Role Cop	Vanilla Townie	1-Shot Mafia Strongman	Town Alignment Cop
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Alignment Cop	Town Doctor	Mafia Role Cop	Vanilla Townie	Vanilla Townie
3	Town Watcher	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Tracker	Town Tracker	Vanilla Townie	1-Shot Mafia Strongman
4	1-Shot Mafia Strongman	Mafia Role Cop	Town Watcher	Town Doctor	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie
5	Vanilla Townie	Town Jailkeeper	Mafia Roleblocker	1-Shot Mafia Strongman	Town Alignment Cop	Town Watcher
6	Town Doctor	Town Tracker	Vanilla Townie	Town Tracker	Mafia Roleblocker	Mafia Role Cop

I've removed vigilantes entirely, and every role exists in at least three different squares, so it won't be possible for anyone to narrow down the setup really quickly. The Mafia only have three different power roles and I believe that I distributed them such that they can only narrow it down to four possible setups at the start of the game. Three of the possible setups include two Town Trackers, which adds strategic depth to fake-claiming and resolving claims. I've also gotten rid of Mafia roles which are so weak that they aren't worth being used for fear of being tracked or watched. I think that each of these changes should make the game more fun and interesting.

I think that the balance is generally okay, but it's hard to be sure without spending more time figuring out all of the nuances of how the different setups overlap with each other. It probably needs some tweaks. For example, 1 and B are similar but the town has an extra role in B and the mafia doesn't have enough of a boost to offset it.

On that note, though, I did add more Doctors and also brought in Town Watchers so that the Mafia cannot just freely kill off the best players at the start of the game. They also don't have enough information to figure out the setup at the start of the game. This should help the town in ways that are a bit less obvious.

But these types of games are rather outside of my wheelhouse so I'm not the most qualified to address balance issues. I might be underestimating the town's power in the setups without cops? But I did make sure they had three power roles in each of those setups. I considered limiting Mafia Role Cops to just two shots.

I also considered adding Godfathers into the mix, though that opens some other cans of worms where the town can't be sure if there is a Godfather in the game or not, and that may not actually be a fun and desirable outcome.

@soah:
So presuming it's intended to be 17p, 13v4, I think there's balance issues here, mainly in the rows rather than the columns. Presuming you like the role-heavy kind of distribution (more town PR's, more scum PR's) I'd suggest some tweaks, along the order of:

	A	B	C	D	E	F
1	Town Alignment Cop with n0	Mafia 3-shot Role Cop	Town Tracker	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Doctor	Vanilla Townie
2	Town Jailkeeper	Town Alignment Cop	Mafia 3-shot Role Cop	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Mafia Roleblocker	Vanilla Townie
3	Mafia Roleblocker	Vanilla Townie	Town Alignment Cop	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman	Vanilla Townie	Town Doctor
4	Mafia 3-shot Role Cop	Town Doctor	Vanilla Townie	Town Masons x3	Vanilla Townie	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
5	Vanilla Townie	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman	Vanilla Townie	Town Watcher and Tracker	Mafia Goon
6	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Roleblocker	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon	Town Innocent Child x2

Note that I've reordered things, mainly so that the "key role" is on the main diagonal, with relatively higher town and scum power setups at the top/left, and relatively vanilla setups at the bottom/right.

You still do get the issues associated with watchers, but since the two watcher setups are low town/scum power overall, I don't think it ought to be an especially big issue to have them in 1/6 of the setups.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Actually the town win-rate in 11v2 mountainous is less than I expected. Perhaps 12v2.

This is worse than 11v2, because it's evens instead of odds, and town has no way to prevent a kill or get an extra kill (i.e. vig shot).

I would question the notion that an even total is inherently worse for town than an odd total, but I don't have a chart in front of me. It doesn't sound like a thing, but I dunno.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I mean, 4v2 is worse than 3v2 in an endgame, but it's subverted with a no lynch. Unless the scum team is allowed to intentionally forego a kill (gross).

[Golden]

Yeah. Big games are great when you are amongst people you know. 17 seems like the Goldilocks zone for playing with strangers. I actually quite like 19 but don't know how easy it is to balance. I wouldn't go above 19 in champs. Observing last year, I felt like 13 was too few.

[soah]

@soah:
So presuming it's intended to be 17p, 13v4, I think there's balance issues here, mainly in the rows rather than the columns. Presuming you like the role-heavy kind of distribution (more town PR's, more scum PR's) I'd suggest some tweaks, along the order of:

	A	B	C	D	E	F
1	Town Alignment Cop with n0	Mafia 3-shot Role Cop	Town Tracker	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Doctor	Vanilla Townie
2	Town Jailkeeper	Town Alignment Cop	Mafia 3-shot Role Cop	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Mafia Roleblocker	Vanilla Townie
3	Mafia Roleblocker	Vanilla Townie	Town Alignment Cop	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman	Vanilla Townie	Town Doctor
4	Mafia 3-shot Role Cop	Town Doctor	Vanilla Townie	Town Masons x3	Vanilla Townie	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
5	Vanilla Townie	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman	Vanilla Townie	Town Watcher and Tracker	Mafia Goon
6	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Roleblocker	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon	Town Innocent Child x2

Note that I've reordered things, mainly so that the "key role" is on the main diagonal, with relatively higher town and scum power setups at the top/left, and relatively vanilla setups at the bottom/right.

You still do get the issues associated with watchers, but since the two watcher setups are low town/scum power overall, I don't think it ought to be an especially big issue to have them in 1/6 of the setups.

Your setup reintroduces the problem of having some roles in only a single square. The goal of my setup was specifically to ensure that knowing a single power role, or even two of them, would not give you a lot of information about which other roles were in the game (and, therefore, to reduce the ability to clear oneself with a roleclaim). That's not something which is for balance, but rather because it seems to me that the matrix format itself is pointless otherwise. The appeal of the game would be to make it difficult to resolve roleclaims mechanically. The tricky part is balancing each of the setups while adhering to that principle.

Aside from that, at first glance it looks like your setup would need to be tweaked for balance as well. 1 and A are pretty similar, but the town is much stronger in 1. You've also used passive roles (masons and IC) for the bulk of the town power in several setups, while my personal preference is to design games that avoid them. And, in regard to what I wrote in the previous paragraph, roles that are self-confirming (or effectively so) like IC and masons don't contribute to the desired effects of the semi-open setup.

[mhsmith0]

Fair enough. I basically ran through it fairly quickly tbh, and definitely could have screwed up a few things (my initial thought for 1 vs A was cop+jk is reasonably equivalent to cop+doc+tracker, but could easily be wrong). One thing I'd probably actively suggest, though, is to have a matrix that (like MS's matrix 6) has one major town role along the top left to bottom right diagonal so that it's fairly clear which is the "central" role of the game.

Given that cops are basically THE power role, making it explicit how they fit in is I think useful to more easily visually understand what's going on. I also kind of like the idea of having more power on both sides in top/left and less on bottom/right. The other visual alternative would be to make the MAFIA key role central on the diagonal, so A1 : D4 would be roleblockers, etc.

But I personally prefer having the town roles on that diagonal, so... (also presuming that you still want no vig, and want to avoid the passive self-clears)...

	A	B	C	D	E	F
1	Town Alignment Cop	Mafia Roleblocker	Vanilla Townie	Mafia 2-shot Role Cop	Town Doctor	Town Tracker
2	Vanilla Townie	Town Alignment Cop	Mafia Roleblocker	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Mafia 2-shot Role Cop	Town 1-shot Bulletproof
3	Mafia Roleblocker	Vanilla Townie	Town Alignment Cop	Vanilla Townie	Town Jailkeeper	Mafia 1-shot Strongman
4	Mafia 2-shot Role Cop	Town Doctor	Vanilla Townie	Town Watcher	Mafia 1-shot Strongman	Town Tracker
5	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Mafia 1-shot Strongman	Town Doctor	Town Watcher	Mafia Roleblocker
6	Town Jailkeeper	Mafia 2-shot Role Cop	Town Doctor	Mafia 1-shot Strongman	Vanilla Townie	Town Doctor

All setups
{A, B, 1, 2} are all Cop + 2 of JK/Doc/BP/Tracker against RB and 2-shot role cop
{3, C} is Cop + JK or Doc against RB and 1-shot strongman
{D, E, 4} are Watcher/Doc/x (BP/JK/Tracker) against Role Cop and Strongman
{5} is Watcher/Doc/BP/BP against RB/Strongman (a bit more scum power since town gets 4 PR's)
{F, 6} are basically the leftovers. F is another RB/strongman, again against 4 town PR's, while 6 is the non-watcher setup for RC/Strongman, which gives town no investigatives but substantial kill-stopping power in compensation

Anyway, that's just a thought.

[Lissa]

At a glance for new one:

2 has what feels like some semi-breaking potential, if one or both bulletproofs gets peeked it's pretty rough on wolves, strongman would fit well in this
4 has significant problem potential if strongman dies, same with 6. more hinges on the strongman than is good, I think
C is mildly prowolf
D and E see 4/6
F feels problematic but I can't place why easily

idk. I'm not a fan of most of these setups for reasons that probably go beyond balance. too much investigative/protective power for a 17er for my taste, regardless of counters

[Newcomb]

I've come around to the idea of just $%#!-canning cops altogether.

It's fine for turbos, but for games where you're really trying to test your abilities it's just a busted mechanic.

I'd actually love to see a role-less tourney. That would be epic.

Probably everybody else would hate it, though.

Seconded, on both points. Roles are overrated; let people live and die based on their behavior. Cops in particular are kind of janky in a setting where you're specifically trying to avoid variance and put an emphasis on player skill.

I think an all-vanilla setup just /sounds/ like it wouldn't be exciting. I think in actuality it would be really, really exciting, or at least it has the potential to be.

[Lissa]

I've come around to the idea of just $%#!-canning cops altogether.

It's fine for turbos, but for games where you're really trying to test your abilities it's just a busted mechanic.

I'd actually love to see a role-less tourney. That would be epic.

Probably everybody else would hate it, though.

Seconded, on both points. Roles are overrated; let people live and die based on their behavior. Cops in particular are kind of janky in a setting where you're specifically trying to avoid variance and put an emphasis on player skill.

I think an all-vanilla setup just /sounds/ like it wouldn't be exciting. I think in actuality it would be really, really exciting, or at least it has the potential to be.

I agree

I've randed wolf twice in champs games and had not hitting the cop have a heavy effect on the game both times. you could say seer hunt better and you wouldn't really be wrong, but I don't think it's great having it be such a heavy potential influence in these games in particular.

I think an all vanilla game with say people from wildcard/finale would be pretty interesting

[mhsmith0]

At a glance for new one:

2 has what feels like some semi-breaking potential, if one or both bulletproofs gets peeked it's pretty rough on wolves, strongman would fit well in this
4 has significant problem potential if strongman dies, same with 6. more hinges on the strongman than is good, I think
C is mildly prowolf
D and E see 4/6
F feels problematic but I can't place why easily

idk. I'm not a fan of most of these setups for reasons that probably go beyond balance. too much investigative/protective power for a 17er for my taste, regardless of counters

Yeah that was pretty draft-y. My preference is lower #s of PRs, see http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/...for-13-players (and I might actually try running games out of that, possibly with a bit of tweaking), but mainly there I was trying to put in something that fit reasonably well w the theme soah was (I think) looking for while being a bit easier to follow visually/structurally.

[BATFROG]

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