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Thread: Setup Discussion: Matrix12 (Proposed Season 3 Format)

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    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Setup Discussion: Matrix12 (Proposed Season 3 Format)

    PROPOSED SEASON 3 FORMAT: MATRIX12

    The current proposed format for Season 3 is heavily inspired by the popular Matrix6 setup, which was designed by Cogito Ergo Sum and is used as a standard newbie setup on mafiascum.

    The concept behind Matrix6 is that there are 6 possible setups illustrated via a matrix where several of the roles and setups overlap with each other. The host rands which one is used, and the players will not know which setup is in play; They must piece this together from knowing just their own role and from watching the reveals as people die.

    Matrix12 works the same way, except with 12 possible setups. In addition, the size of the game is increased from 9 players to 17 players.

    A B C D E F
    1 Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie Mafia Role Cop Vanilla Townie 1-Shot Mafia Strongman Town Odd Night Cop
    2 Mafia Roleblocker Town Alignment Cop Town Doctor Mafia Ninja Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie
    3 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie 1-Shot Mafia Strongman Town Tracker Town Masons (2) Vanilla Townie 1-Shot Mafia Strongman
    4 1-Shot Mafia Strongman 1-Shot Mafia Bulletproof Town Vigilante Town Bodyguard 2-Shot Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie
    5 Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie Mafia Jailkeeper 1-Shot Mafia Strongman Town Alignment Cop w/ n0 town check Town Jailkeeper
    6 Town Vigilante Town Innocent Child Vanilla Townie Town Tracker 2-Shot Mafia Roleblocker Mafia Watcher

    The host randomizes a letter or a number, deciding which setup is used. I.e. if the host rands C, then the setup will consist of the roles in the C column. The host then adds 2 Mafia Goons to the setup and fills up the rest with Vanilla Townies.

    I.e. setup C would give you this:
    1x Town Doctor
    1x Town Tracker
    1x Town Vigilante
    10x Vanilla Townie

    1x Mafia Role Cop
    1x Mafia Jailkeeper
    2x Mafia Goon


    General notes:
    • The mafia's factional kill must be assigned to a single member of their team each night. This means that the mafia's factional kill can be blocked by a Town Jailkeeper or tracked by a Town Tracker.
    • For those wondering, some of the roles in the matrix (Mafia Ninja and 1-Shot Mafia Bulletproof) will indeed only have value for either the row or the column setup in which it is used and not the other. This is not a mistake, it is done on purpose to only boost the mafia side in one of the two setups.
    • Full Role PM's will be posted later, clearly describing each role. But for now, refer to our Role Database if you are unfamiliar with any of these roles.

    Notable restrictions/clarifications:
    • The Mafia Ninja may not perform the factional kill on consecutive nights.
    • The Bulletproof roles are passively protected from the first shot fired at them during night. They will not be informed if they lose their vest.
    • None of the included roles can self-target, including the protective roles.
    • Doctors, Jailkeepers and Roleblockers are not allowed to target the same players on consecutive nights.
    • The Innocent Child may choose himself when he wishes to be publicly confirmed in the thread as town.
    • The Even Night Vigilante may only shoot on even nights (i.e. Night 2, Night 4, etc.).
    • The Town Cop gets an automated check on Night 0, i.e. when the game begins he will already know the alignment of one town player (this player can be a power role or a Vanilla Townie, the Cop will not know). The reason that the Town Cop can't potentially check a mafia-aligned player on Night 0 is to prevent an unfortunate situation of a representative being outed as mafia before they've had a chance to showcase their skills.


    The matrix consists of several well-known formats, though most of them are indeed untested. However, I have consulted with about 5-6 experienced game hosts now (including some of my fellow moderators) and after a lot of discussion, we overall feel fine about this proposal. Some setups are more prone to variance than others, but we feel that each side in all of the setups have a fair shot at winning. One issue that makes balancing tough for a Mafia Championship is that people are used to very different standards and metas, and what is balanced on one site may not be balanced on another site because of how the game is played there.

    If there are strong objections or well-reasoned criticism, we are very willing to hear you out and consider making changes to the matrix. If you wish to propose changes, we hope that you will limit yourself to common and standard roles, given that we hope to automate these games, which will be difficult if it features too unique or complex roles.
    Last edited by Thingyman; August 23rd, 2016 at 07:32 PM.

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    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    interesting

    e seems wolfsided - especially if you compare it to 5. a similar but objectively better (in that setup) wolf role + a similar but objectively worse village role

    6 also seems wolfsided - ic + tracker does not seem strong enough to have a roleblocker countering it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa View Post
    interesting

    e seems wolfsided - especially if you compare it to 5. a similar but objectively better (in that setup) wolf role + a similar but objectively worse village role

    6 also seems wolfsided - ic + tracker does not seem strong enough to have a roleblocker countering it
    I fail to see the difference between a mafia jailkeeper in this setup and a roleblocker, myself. Unless you're planning on vigging the cop AND roleblocking him, which is pointless, because the only way he survives the shot is the town jailkeep...which roleblocks him anyway.

    The point about a 2-shot JK being objectively worse than an unlimited JK is perfectly fair, of course.


    6 I'm not sure on. I think it's more mafia-sided than town, for sure, but I don't think I would have any issue rolling town on it. Anybody the tracker hits on is confirmed mafia, so it's essentially a weak cop. I would estimate that 6 is probably the reverse of the standard cop game

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    #BetterThanYou
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    Thingy would have posted this in a forum I can't thank posts on.
    @Lissa, pretend I thanked your post.

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    Zack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa View Post
    interesting

    e seems wolfsided - especially if you compare it to 5. a similar but objectively better (in that setup) wolf role + a similar but objectively worse village role

    6 also seems wolfsided - ic + tracker does not seem strong enough to have a roleblocker countering it
    I fail to see the difference between a mafia jailkeeper in this setup and a roleblocker, myself. Unless you're planning on vigging the cop AND roleblocking him, which is pointless, because the only way he survives the shot is the town jailkeep...which roleblocks him anyway.

    The point about a 2-shot JK being objectively worse than an unlimited JK is perfectly fair, of course.


    6 I'm not sure on. I think it's more mafia-sided than town, for sure, but I don't think I would have any issue rolling town on it. Anybody the tracker hits on is confirmed mafia, so it's essentially a weak cop. I would estimate that 6 is probably the reverse of the standard cop game
    Theoretically the mafia could jailkeep a fellow wolf to protect from the vig.

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    Zack's Avatar
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    Also, sorry for the tangent, but where does the tradition of a n0 peek for the cop come from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zack View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa View Post
    interesting

    e seems wolfsided - especially if you compare it to 5. a similar but objectively better (in that setup) wolf role + a similar but objectively worse village role

    6 also seems wolfsided - ic + tracker does not seem strong enough to have a roleblocker countering it
    I fail to see the difference between a mafia jailkeeper in this setup and a roleblocker, myself. Unless you're planning on vigging the cop AND roleblocking him, which is pointless, because the only way he survives the shot is the town jailkeep...which roleblocks him anyway.

    The point about a 2-shot JK being objectively worse than an unlimited JK is perfectly fair, of course.


    6 I'm not sure on. I think it's more mafia-sided than town, for sure, but I don't think I would have any issue rolling town on it. Anybody the tracker hits on is confirmed mafia, so it's essentially a weak cop. I would estimate that 6 is probably the reverse of the standard cop game
    Theoretically the mafia could jailkeep a fellow wolf to protect from the vig.
    As it relates to the overall role, absolutely. But in this specific instance, the only killing abilities belong to mafia, and town has no redirection capabilities. The only reason that mafia would need protection is if the vig is pulling a @Gamer Dude.

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    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    they could want to both roleblock and kill the jailkeeper to make sure the kill wasn't interfered with.


    and the tracker isn't anywhere near as strong as a cop, though, because only 2 mafia at most are going to be visiting (and arguably, the wolves can tell when they are in this setup and there's some value in holstering the rb maybe)

    idk, when the roleblocker is used the tracker gets stronger

    meh

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    Low Hanging Fruit euklyd's Avatar
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    In Row 1, what happens if the jailors jail each other?

    Also the link to the role database is broken.

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    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    The town masons look too strong to me. 3 looks town favored and D looks even more town favored. Five of the thirteen town can roleclaim to avoid lynch. If the mafia hit some vanillas with their early kills, which they usually will, then they are going to have an extremely limited pool of mislynches. The vig shot helps a little bit, but it's tough to utilize effectively here. Town powers look at least as good, on top of the mere fact that they can roleclaim when needed. I guess that theoretically early roleclaims might not be taken at face value, but if I were playing in one of these games I'd probably want to avoid taking the risk of mislynching a power role until we get some information about which setup we're in. Just seems too likely to me that all five end up roleclaiming and being unlynchable, and the lynch pool just becomes too small.

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    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    thoughts/questions:
    1) is the 1-shot mafia vig a 1-time EXTRA NK? Or is that role a nerfed goon where he can only kill once per game?

    2) I'd suggest flipping A3 and D4. Reasons:
    - Town BP on the same line as town vig IMO makes sense. In row 4, if vig shoots and hits BP, then he's effectively acted like a 1-shot cop unless he happens to get NK'd the same night. My gut says that may be unbalanced.
    - I also think that it might be interesting to have a town bodyguard on the same column (A) as a JK/RB, making night actions a bit more random/interesting, so unless that somehow unbalances the rest I feel like that's a good change.
    - column D: if masons are unbalanced favoring the town, nerfing the bodyguard and flipping with BP town makes D a LOT less unbalanced / pro town. That still leaves row 3...

    3) I'd ALSO then suggest swapping A4 / B3 (asusming the 1-shot scum vig is a boosted goon and not a nerfed one), or maybe just making B3 the souped up goon and leaving A4 alone. In current setup, a goon+jack means scum team doesn't know if they're on row 3 or column F (in fact, this is the ONLY way they can draw a ??? on the current board).
    My impression is that's especially unbalanced anti-scum, ESPECIALLY if they are up against masons. But getting the extra NK helps balance it a bit in terms of power draw, as well as in terms of letting scum know they're up against masons from the very start. If that knowledge is too unbalancing, maybe make F6 into a 1-shot vig too, and nerf the role-blocker into like a 2-shot or 3-shot RB.

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    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    post post edit: wrt suggestion #3, I meant make E6 into a limited use RB. Also, if the masons are always up against a scum team with a 1-shot vig, then they always have to be careful about outing themselves, since it's pretty easy to pop them quick if they do.

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    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    Some other notes:
    1) If D is too town-favored due to five power roles, why not just flip C6 and D6? Then you get four PR's on both C and D. C pushes a bit harder favoring town, but with double trackers AND a doctor, I'm thinking the tracker power on C gets pretty nerfed. Of course, in that context the D2 scum ninja becomes worthless, so maybe flip D2 and B3 as well.
    Overall impact of flipping C66 and D2:B3:
    - D is a lot less town-advantaged
    - 2 is no change, since ninja didn't matter there anyway. 6 no change as well, since it's the exact same roles, just different order.
    - C has more town roles, butthere's potentially a lot of noise to sort through with double trackers. Not sure if that's helpful/interesting/fun or just noisy/bad.
    - 3 gets a slight boost to scum since the tracker gets nerfed there
    IMO that creates a bit more balance. The notable potential down side is that C can turn into a super weird game with dueling trackers, a doctor and two scum non-kill roles that would get hit by the tracker.
    2) If you were to go through with flipping:
    - C6 <-> D6
    - A3 <-> D4
    - D2->Goon
    - B3->Ninja
    you're left with:


    That materially nerfs the power of town in 6 since a tracker won't know if he's in C or 3, both of which nerf tracker quite a bit (and in different ways). Tracker will know he's in the right line when IC declares, until that happens, tracker has to worry about the usefulness of his results quite a bit.

    Looking at resulting rows/columns in more detail:
    1 - scum team gets a role cop that can hit pretty often, and a once per game double kill (assuming I understand 1-shot vig correctly). but double JK's and town even vig are pretty strong roles too, and there are only three roles that can claim. Off the cuff this seems reasonably balanced.

    2 - only TWO town roles in this game. But that almost completely nerfs the usefulness of RB, and scum has no other extra abilities. Balanced... I think.

    3 - four town roles, but tracker is nerfed by ninja, and bodyguard isn't super strong (I think). Balanced... I think.

    4 - three town roles, and with BP on both scum and town, it prevents vig from being an effective 1-shot cop. and on the flip side, scum has nearly no power roles of any note, just a one-time double kill. Balanced... I think.

    5 - only two town roles, but they're both strong, and scum JK is nerfed by lack of power roles to stop. Balanced... I think.

    6 - only two town roles, but tracker gets 100% on any result, IF he realizes which line he's on. But scum can RB him, and realizing which line he's on requires the IC to declare. Balanced... I think.

    A - three town roles, but bodyguard isn't that great of one, and RB has two roles he can target, plus there's a one-time double kill. Balanced... I think.

    B - only ONE town role, but it's the cop. And scum roles are completely useless in this setup. Balanced... I think.

    C - four town roles, but scum get a role cop to help ID and a JK to block actions, and the trackers have a bunch of potential false positives that they have to fight through. Balanced... I think.

    D - four town roles, but BP isn't very useful, and masons can get whacked pretty fast given the +1 kill per game. Balanced... I think.

    E - only two town roles, but they're cop and (limited) JK, plus scum get a one time extra kill, plus scum gets an RB if they ever ID the cop. Balanced... I think.

    F - only two town roles, but scum only has one role. Balanced... I think.

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    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    For reference, B has a 44.4% town winrate on POG over 108 games, although that's usually with the cop's n0 check not being randomly assigned and with the players knowing the setup upfront.

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    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    @soah: do any of the other setups (either mine or the original) have much data on win rates?

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    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    @Thingyman said so, but didn't elaborate.

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    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 View Post
    @soah: do any of the other setups (either mine or the original) have much data on win rates?
    The matrix6 link contains stats on the setups included in that. Some of the setups in this are the same or have just a few additions to setups used in matrix6, so you can at least get some idea based off of that.

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    Soul Reader Dot's Avatar
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    Generally speaking, how quickly do Innocent Childs tend to claim in setups where there is confirmed no villa seeing power?

    Is there any reason why they shouldn't do so immediately on d1?

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    Klopp Killa Panther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dot View Post
    Generally speaking, how quickly do Innocent Childs tend to claim in setups where there is confirmed no villa seeing power?

    Is there any reason why they shouldn't do so immediately on d1?
    My only thought is if you claim right away, it probably turns into a n1 kill if wolf team knows they are in the setup without Tracker.

    I think it gets stronger the later you can live into the game. And you can always just use the mod-confirm if you're the top wagon as day approaches.

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    Klopp Killa Panther's Avatar
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    *as deadline approaches.

    Idk though really, would be interested to hear more experienced players' take

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    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    I would think you wait to claim as long as possible

    claim when you're otherwise getting lynched or it's mustlynch

    what is essentially a modpeek is infinitely more valuable at mustlynch than d1

    they are likely to just die very quickly if they claim early, considering the setups they are in aren't really pr heavy

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    Flip Flop Klopp Klopp's Avatar
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    In my parts we usually play with just a cop, doctor, godfather (innocent when checked by a cop) and mafia spy (sees if someone has a role) and that's when we play with 20+ players, rest of the players have no powers.
    Can someone link me to the tutorial on roles?

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    Soul Reader Dot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa View Post
    I would think you wait to claim as long as possible

    claim when you're otherwise getting lynched or it's mustlynch

    what is essentially a modpeek is infinitely more valuable at mustlynch than d1

    they are likely to just die very quickly if they claim early, considering the setups they are in aren't really pr heavy
    right, but...isn't that fine?

    like, isn't it much worse for the village to have to CFD because the innocent child claims close to EOD, or for other town power roles like the tracker or -- heaven forbid -- a vig to waste their resources on targeting the innocent child?

    i mean i guess i see what you're saying, presuming the innocent child can stay alive long enough to claim in a higher-leverage spot

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    Flip Flop Klopp Klopp's Avatar
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    Nevermind, found it!

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    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    the 2 setups with ic in the matrix have:

    wolf rb, wolf 1 shot vig, villa jailkeeper, villa 1 shot bp, villa innocent child
    wolf rb, villa tracker, villa innocent child

    so a vig wouldn't be an issue here, though i agree about that being a potential concern in theory

    i think the chance of a tracker wasting a track on them is probably worth the tradeoff of potentially having them alive lategame


    if it's clear that they are a likely lynch, they probably shouldn't wait until too close to eod to claim

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    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by SB
    wrt the individual setups

    A - town has no info roles and (assuming no jail save) only 3 MLs before LYLO.
    B - not imba(?) but there's a huge advantage to the mafia because they know they only have to kill the cop
    C - might be balanced, if anything its slightly scumsided but its not bad
    D - town has 5 PRs and a ton of protection and info, probably the only townsided setup here
    E - scumvig + roleblocker vs cop and a 2x jailkeeper that probably wont do anything is not good
    F - The vig is kind of useless until N4 because of scumdoc on the jack, meaning its jailkeeper vs a buff jack which is not great
    1 - not actually sure how this swings but if scum dont kill a jailkeeper early they get poed really fast and lose
    2 - probably balanced although it has the same issue as B
    3 - i think maf wins this but its close
    4 - 90% of the game is on the vig's shoulders, if thats what you want its fine (prob slight mafsided) but i dislike it
    5 - a worse version of setup 2
    6 - IC, Tracker and 11 VTs isnt enough for a scumteam of goons, let alone an RB

    general thoughts

    -scum don't need the vigs in 17p, it just deprives town of a mislynch in 50% of the setups unless the doc/jk are on point

    -i don't think maf needs so many PRs when the towns are all weak, and with more goons you solve the problem of the mafia knowing the setup in almost every instance from the start of the game
    A friend from another community sent me this. Thoughts?
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


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    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    A - town has no info roles and (assuming no jail save) only 3 MLs before LYLO.
    1x bulletproof cancels out the 1x vig, so town has 4 MLs, and the jailkeeper serves as a weak investigative role


    I'm thinking I'd:

    - remove the limitation on the town jailkeeper in E4
    - replace the masons in D3 with something weaker (rather than just confirming two players and making them unlynchable)
    - replace the Ninja in D2 with something stronger
    - swap C3 and C6, but that depends on what you do with D3 (and mafia in 6 would know which setup they are in so they'd be fully aware of the risk:reward issue with using their roleblocker blindly with two trackers out there)

    I haven't fully considered the other proposals... this is just how it seems to me.

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    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Personal objection, A6: Innocent Child is broken in the hands of skilled players more so than any other role on the map because it is mod confirmed cleared. When I had it I curbstomped the Mafia almost effortlessly. I don't see why this wouldn't happen here.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


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    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    On second thought, put it in, nominate me for representative and give it to me, please.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


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    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    Personal objection, A6: Innocent Child is broken in the hands of skilled players more so than any other role on the map because it is mod confirmed cleared. When I had it I curbstomped the Mafia almost effortlessly. I don't see why this wouldn't happen here.
    Is this normal for you in a large game? That seems odd; why wouldn't scum just kill you the night after you declared?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    Personal objection, A6: Innocent Child is broken in the hands of skilled players more so than any other role on the map because it is mod confirmed cleared. When I had it I curbstomped the Mafia almost effortlessly. I don't see why this wouldn't happen here.
    I don't see how it's broken. I would imagine if you're a good enough player to curbstomp somebody with it - and I'm talking a general you, not specifically YOU - then you ought to be good enough to be enough of a consensus townread that it really doesn't matter? It's absolutely great to be modconfirmed, but that doesn't mean your reads have any more accuracy; all it does is make it impossible to get mislynched, which again, shouldn't be happening TOO often with a super strong townie.

    Also, with no protective role in the setup, won't it be NK'ed the night after activation?

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    This has been resolved.
    Last edited by Chris; March 31st, 2016 at 06:33 AM.

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    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Should probably make a bigger note of that edit in the OP so that people reading the thread aren't confused by all of the replies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    <div data-quote="" sb>wrt the individual setups

    A - town has no info roles and (assuming no jail save) only 3 MLs before LYLO.
    B - not imba(?) but there's a huge advantage to the mafia because they know they only have to kill the cop
    C - might be balanced, if anything its slightly scumsided but its not bad
    D - town has 5 PRs and a ton of protection and info, probably the only townsided setup here
    E - scumvig + roleblocker vs cop and a 2x jailkeeper that probably wont do anything is not good
    F - The vig is kind of useless until N4 because of scumdoc on the jack, meaning its jailkeeper vs a buff jack which is not great
    1 - not actually sure how this swings but if scum dont kill a jailkeeper early they get poed really fast and lose
    2 - probably balanced although it has the same issue as B
    3 - i think maf wins this but its close
    4 - 90% of the game is on the vig's shoulders, if thats what you want its fine (prob slight mafsided) but i dislike it
    5 - a worse version of setup 2
    6 - IC, Tracker and 11 VTs isnt enough for a scumteam of goons, let alone an RB

    general thoughts

    -scum don't need the vigs in 17p, it just deprives town of a mislynch in 50% of the setups unless the doc/jk are on point

    -i don't think maf needs so many PRs when the towns are all weak, and with more goons you solve the problem of the mafia knowing the setup in almost every instance from the start of the game
    A friend from another community sent me this. Thoughts?
    A - Correct, but the vig can be blocked, the target can be doctored, and they can hit the BPV. That's enough of a possibility to stop it IMO. And town only has 4 mislynches, so I'm not sure it's a huge difference?

    B - Fair.

    C - Fair.

    D - The only protective role dies if successfully used, and a tracker is probably the weakest of common

    E - I don't understand why the jailkeep won't do anything. Again, can be used offensively or defensively.

    F - What? The vig can be used to eliminate a townie from the POE or shoot mafia. Even if the JOAT chooses to protect that night over shoot (which admittedly, is very likely), it has a 25% chance of protecting the correct mafia if all are alive, and 50% if two have been lynched.

    1 - I'd need to hear the thought process behind the POE. Without it, it seems wrong; the IC will take one out of the POE, and the BPV can claim once the IC does, but I'm not sure how the jailkeeper is supposed to differentiate between vanilla townies, mafia goons, and the mafia rolecop...beyond saving a VT from a kill? That's a 10% raw chance N1, 11% with a D1 ML.

    2 - Doctor can keep the cop alive. If mafia RBer dies before the doc, it turns into a shell game as to whether the doc would protect the outed cop.

    3 - Probably not wrong?

    4 - Probably not wrong?

    5 - I can see his point there, in that if you don't think 2 is good for town, 5 really won't be.

    6 - I don't know if I'm allowed to say my thoughts on this.


    Can you have this person provide an example of what he thinks a good setup is? Because if thinks 11 VT, IC, and Tracker against 4 goons is mafia sided, I'm really confused as to what he's expecting. I would also point out I believe the idea is that mafia should know the setup. It's semi-open with exceptionally few possibilities. The town PR's have the ability to claim and clear themselves, depriving mafia of mislynch opportunities; they need to be able to anticipate what town has to work with to strategize their NA's.

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    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    This has been resolved.
    Now you've made it so that no one but me understands what just happened. :S

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    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    Personal objection, A6: Innocent Child is broken in the hands of skilled players more so than any other role on the map because it is mod confirmed cleared. When I had it I curbstomped the Mafia almost effortlessly. I don't see why this wouldn't happen here.
    Is this normal for you in a large game? That seems odd; why wouldn't scum just kill you the night after you declared?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    Personal objection, A6: Innocent Child is broken in the hands of skilled players more so than any other role on the map because it is mod confirmed cleared. When I had it I curbstomped the Mafia almost effortlessly. I don't see why this wouldn't happen here.
    I don't see how it's broken. I would imagine if you're a good enough player to curbstomp somebody with it - and I'm talking a general you, not specifically YOU - then you ought to be good enough to be enough of a consensus townread that it really doesn't matter? It's absolutely great to be modconfirmed, but that doesn't mean your reads have any more accuracy; all it does is make it impossible to get mislynched, which again, shouldn't be happening TOO often with a super strong townie.

    Also, with no protective role in the setup, won't it be NK'ed the night after activation?
    I played with a Jailer.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


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    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    If you read all of Setup A, it has both Innocent Child and Jailkeeper.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


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    Thumbs Up Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    Personal objection, A6: Innocent Child is broken in the hands of skilled players more so than any other role on the map because it is mod confirmed cleared. When I had it I curbstomped the Mafia almost effortlessly. I don't see why this wouldn't happen here.
    Is this normal for you in a large game? That seems odd; why wouldn't scum just kill you the night after you declared?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    Personal objection, A6: Innocent Child is broken in the hands of skilled players more so than any other role on the map because it is mod confirmed cleared. When I had it I curbstomped the Mafia almost effortlessly. I don't see why this wouldn't happen here.
    I don't see how it's broken. I would imagine if you're a good enough player to curbstomp somebody with it - and I'm talking a general you, not specifically YOU - then you ought to be good enough to be enough of a consensus townread that it really doesn't matter? It's absolutely great to be modconfirmed, but that doesn't mean your reads have any more accuracy; all it does is make it impossible to get mislynched, which again, shouldn't be happening TOO often with a super strong townie.

    Also, with no protective role in the setup, won't it be NK'ed the night after activation?
    I played with a Jailer.
    That still doesn't inherently make your reads good and says nothing about the role itself imo.

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    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Can't target the same player on consecutive nights.

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    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah View Post
    Can't target the same player on consecutive nights.
    I would survive the first night, and if Mafia predict I'm protected when I'm not, I can survive 2. That's what happened to me.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


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    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    But if that's the angle you're running with, then the vigilante is much more overpowered since with that role an expert player would just kill all of the mafia directly without even needing to convince everyone to do it during the day.

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    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    Personal objection, A6: Innocent Child is broken in the hands of skilled players more so than any other role on the map because it is mod confirmed cleared. When I had it I curbstomped the Mafia almost effortlessly. I don't see why this wouldn't happen here.
    Is this normal for you in a large game? That seems odd; why wouldn't scum just kill you the night after you declared?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    Personal objection, A6: Innocent Child is broken in the hands of skilled players more so than any other role on the map because it is mod confirmed cleared. When I had it I curbstomped the Mafia almost effortlessly. I don't see why this wouldn't happen here.
    I don't see how it's broken. I would imagine if you're a good enough player to curbstomp somebody with it - and I'm talking a general you, not specifically YOU - then you ought to be good enough to be enough of a consensus townread that it really doesn't matter? It's absolutely great to be modconfirmed, but that doesn't mean your reads have any more accuracy; all it does is make it impossible to get mislynched, which again, shouldn't be happening TOO often with a super strong townie.

    Also, with no protective role in the setup, won't it be NK'ed the night after activation?
    I played with a Jailer.
    That still doesn't inherently make your reads good and says nothing about the role itself imo.
    My reads were beside the point. It allowed me to enact some town sided strategies.

    Read this game.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


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    Quote Originally Posted by soah View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    This has been resolved.
    Now you've made it so that no one but me understands what just happened. :S
    It's like a mafia game!

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    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah View Post
    But if that's the angle you're running with, then the vigilante is much more overpowered since with that role an expert player would just kill all of the mafia directly without even needing to convince everyone to do it during the day.
    This was more from a town leading point of view. Innocent Child makes several pro town plays possible, especially when they have a chance to live to the next day. Vig is powerful, so is Cop, but being mod confirmed cleared opens up options that neither of them do. Even if Mafia aren't idiots it deals a significant psychological blow and generates solid reaction testing even if they avoid taking the bait. Mafia must play to their win con and Innocent Child can create scenarios where their moves are limited because of it. If Mafia can't talk during the day they won't be able to form a united front without being obvious, nor a distancing front without being obvious. I can see what you're saying about it relying on good reads but I would challenge you to test the cop against innocent child in otherwise standard games and see which setup has more town wins. I bet town wins a majority of the time compared to cop just because cops can be cc'd.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


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    Thumbs Up Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 View Post
    Is this normal for you in a large game? That seems odd; why wouldn't scum just kill you the night after you declared?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I don't see how it's broken. I would imagine if you're a good enough player to curbstomp somebody with it - and I'm talking a general you, not specifically YOU - then you ought to be good enough to be enough of a consensus townread that it really doesn't matter? It's absolutely great to be modconfirmed, but that doesn't mean your reads have any more accuracy; all it does is make it impossible to get mislynched, which again, shouldn't be happening TOO often with a super strong townie.

    Also, with no protective role in the setup, won't it be NK'ed the night after activation?
    I played with a Jailer.
    That still doesn't inherently make your reads good and says nothing about the role itself imo.
    My reads were beside the point. It allowed me to enact some town sided strategies.

    Read this game.
    Summarising it seems faster?

    What did you do that was so OP?

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    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maohkaze View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 View Post
    Is this normal for you in a large game? That seems odd; why wouldn't scum just kill you the night after you declared?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I don't see how it's broken. I would imagine if you're a good enough player to curbstomp somebody with it - and I'm talking a general you, not specifically YOU - then you ought to be good enough to be enough of a consensus townread that it really doesn't matter? It's absolutely great to be modconfirmed, but that doesn't mean your reads have any more accuracy; all it does is make it impossible to get mislynched, which again, shouldn't be happening TOO often with a super strong townie.

    Also, with no protective role in the setup, won't it be NK'ed the night after activation?
    I played with a Jailer.
    That still doesn't inherently make your reads good and says nothing about the role itself imo.
    My reads were beside the point. It allowed me to enact some town sided strategies.

    Read this game.
    Summarising it seems faster?

    What did you do that was so OP?
    a) Cleared myself D1. Let people claim their scumspects and see a few wagons form.
    b) Suggest that the town form three ties on three possible scum, forcing the Mafia to work in Town's interest or stand out.
    c) Claim that I will break the tie by voting for one of three at random before phase end.
    d) See what happens.

    In the worst case for town, the Mafia go along with it and manage to avoid acting strangely throughout the whole thing, not giving away anything about the alignment of the tied lynchees. Even though this is the worst case, this is still pro-town compared to Mafia being able to vote freely and gives a lot of info for a D1 by forcing a 1v1v1 right off the bat (a 1v1 with two lynchees also works).

    In the medium case, the Mafia try to shift blame or waffle in the face of this adversity, buddying each other or distancing each other too obviously. In other words making strange moves under the pressure. Since Mafia cannot coordinate during the day, this is the most likely scenario.

    In the best case, they act out directly by voting near phase end to avoid losing a member, outing themselves and their buddy in a direct way.

    I have yet to see mafia successfully pull off the first scenario and believe it would require extensive planning to become relevant, so in a majority of games, this strategy will lead to a huge amount of info coming out on D1.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


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    Flip Flop Klopp Klopp's Avatar
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    What is the guarantee that the innocent players listen to you? Just because you're innocent it doesn't mean your ideas or suspicions are correct. If I'm town with you in such a scenario and I'll think your idea is silly or your suspicions are wrong I won't be playing along - I will express what I don't like about your line of thought.

    I believe your idea might not bring great results beacuse as you said, mafia can just go along with whatever idea you present. For me as mafia that would be a very comfortable situation because when I play in mafia the easiest thing to do is to follow others and just behave naturally while doing so. The hardest part is trying to lead and show your determination to lynch your suspects.

    I believe mafia have it the hardest when townies plan nothing and mafia are under constant pressure to write posts, to be creative, to attack etc.

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    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klopp View Post
    What is the guarantee that the innocent players listen to you? Just because you're innocent it doesn't mean your ideas or suspicions are correct. If I'm town with you in such a scenario and I'll think your idea is silly or your suspicions are wrong I won't be playing along - I will express what I don't like about your line of thought.

    I believe your idea might not bring great results beacuse as you said, mafia can just go along with whatever idea you present. For me as mafia that would be a very comfortable situation because when I play in mafia the easiest thing to do is to follow others and just behave naturally while doing so. The hardest part is trying to lead and show your determination to lynch your suspects.

    I believe mafia have it the hardest when townies plan nothing and mafia are under constant pressure to write posts, to be creative, to attack etc.
    I do have small sample sizes but I'm willing to bet I'm right.
    Last edited by Makaze; March 31st, 2016 at 06:40 PM.
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    Flip Flop Klopp Klopp's Avatar
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    I'm a living proof you're not. As I said, if I were a townie and you had this role and told everybody what to do, I wouldn't agree on it, you being confirmed townie doesn't change the fact you can still have bad ideas and pick wrong suspects. So would you lynch me becuase I'm not playing by your rules? If so, you just lost a townie thanks to your strategy, if not, then the strategy isn't followed anyway because not everyone listens.

    Besides, in almost every game there is at least one or two players who play so naturally that without confirmation from the mod I can bet my house on them being townies. Still doesn't mean I will follow them blindly, I will trust that they are honest but that's pretty much all.

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    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klopp View Post
    I'm a living proof you're not. As I said, if I were a townie and you had this role and told everybody what to do, I wouldn't agree on it, you being confirmed townie doesn't change the fact you can still have bad ideas and pick wrong suspects. So would you lynch me becuase I'm not playing by your rules? If so, you just lost a townie thanks to your strategy, if not, then the strategy isn't followed anyway because not everyone listens.

    Besides, in almost every game there is at least one or two players who play so naturally that without confirmation from the mod I can bet my house on them being townies. Still doesn't mean I will follow them blindly, I will trust that they are honest but that's pretty much all.
    I don't have to be right for the strategy to be sound. If any one of the three on the lynch is scum then it's useful.

    Not needing to use the strategy because you have better ones is another thing.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


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