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Thread: Setup Discussion: Matrix12 (Proposed Season 3 Format)

  1. ISO #151
    Thread Analyst BFG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa View Post
    i was staring at this and had some thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman View Post
    A B C D E F
    1 Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie Mafia Role Cop Vanilla Townie Mafia Goon Town Even Night Vigilante
    2 Mafia Jailkeeper Town Cop w/ n0 town check Town Doctor Mafia Ninja OR Goon Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie
    3 1-Shot Bulletproof Town Mafia Goon Town Tracker Town Masons (2) Vanilla Townie Mafia Jack of All Trades (1 shot, 1 check, 1 save)
    4 Mafia Role Cop
    Mafia 1-Shot Strongman OR 1-Shot Bulletproof Town Vigilante Town 1-Shot Bulletproof Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie
    5 Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie Mafia Jailkeeper Mafia Ninja OR Goon Town Cop w/n0 town check Town Jailkeeper
    6 Town Vigilante Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie Town Tracker Mafia 1-Shot Strongman Mafia Goon
    (italics are changes. note: in D, ninja + goon always. in 2 or 5, rand)
    Does strongman shoot through a JK here? Otherwise the only protective role there is with a strongman is in row 4, and then it's just a bpv, so effectively the strongman is just a goon anyway?
    HELLO TO JASON ISAACS

  2. ISO #152
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    On a balancing note, how important is it that the wolf team know the setup ahead of time? On Lissa's suggested matrix, there are a decent # of setups (B [if strongman], E and 6; 2 and 5; A and C) where they won't know where they're at, which strikes me as potentially unbalanced.

    Also, some of those seem unbalanced comparatively. E is goon+strongman, with a JK and cop, but 6 is same mafia team with a vig and tracker, and B is cop with no other PR's.

  3. ISO #153
    Soul Reader MysteriousLad's Avatar
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    Scum knowing the setup is more unbalanced to be fair.
    "MagnificentLad iz best WWN! Glory to MagnificentLad, the Illuminati and pasta!" -Airnike (WWN)

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  4. ISO #154
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysteriousLad View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MysteriousLad View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorian View Post

    That's odd. 3 would be way too small as there are no neutrals.
    Actually a 3:14 ratio is around the 50/50 win-rate keeping towns ability to hunt in mind. 4:13 is more around the 30/70. This is the first of my objections to be honest. You can do the calculations yourself and if you insist I'll post them here, I gave town a 10% advantage considering scum-hunting so the calcs with pure randomness are even worse for the town.
    Citation needed? They did a 10:3 set-up last season and by and large the towns did fine. I'm curious to hear about these calculations and what they're based on. Is that just an empirical sample from games you've seen or an attempt to model games or what?

    For the most part the only thing I've seen mathematical models prove with respect to werewolf is that mathematical models at extremely limited in their ability to model werewolf.

    As for the PR thing that's always an inherent part of these games. It just means that often the wolves are able to take a PR down with them unless the village wants to risk lynching an uncced PR
    10:3 is balanced, however 13:4 is not. A 3:1 ratio isn't the standard for balance, it's just how many mislynch chances the town gets. The larger a game gets the chance town mislynches gets a lot larger, and as such the ratio of town:scum should decrease. As for the limitations, I disagree. Many setups that have a large sample size (take Vengeful Mafia for instance) have the trend of bordering the predicted win-rates. 15-16 town would make for a good number of town, however 13 is scum-sided.
    Just accounting for the ratio and not the roles seems weird though. The roles have a large impact on the game's balance. If, say, all the townies had claimable power roles, then I assume you would agree that they are favored in any 13:4 setup.

    We have a database for another site: http://www.werewolfstats.com/pog/index.php

    Most of the games run on that site are larger than 13 people, and all those games have at least 22-25% scum (and several have even more than this), yet if you look at all the different game types there isn't one where the town loses more than 43% of the time (and this is for a game type that has neutral/third party wins as well).

  5. ISO #155
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa View Post
    i was staring at this and had some thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman View Post
    A B C D E F
    1 Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie Mafia Role Cop Vanilla Townie Mafia Goon Town Even Night Vigilante
    2 Mafia Jailkeeper Town Cop w/ n0 town check Town Doctor Mafia Ninja OR Goon Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie
    3 1-Shot Bulletproof Town Mafia Goon Town Tracker Town Masons (2) Vanilla Townie Mafia Jack of All Trades (1 shot, 1 check, 1 save)
    4 Mafia Role Cop
    Mafia 1-Shot Strongman OR 1-Shot Bulletproof Town Vigilante Town 1-Shot Bulletproof Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie
    5 Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie Mafia Jailkeeper Mafia Ninja OR Goon Town Cop w/n0 town check Town Jailkeeper
    6 Town Vigilante Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie Town Tracker Mafia 1-Shot Strongman Mafia Goon
    (italics are changes. note: in D, ninja + goon always. in 2 or 5, rand)
    Does strongman shoot through a JK here? Otherwise the only protective role there is with a strongman is in row 4, and then it's just a bpv, so effectively the strongman is just a goon anyway?
    it does shoot through jailkeeper

  6. ISO #156
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 View Post
    On a balancing note, how important is it that the wolf team know the setup ahead of time? On Lissa's suggested matrix, there are a decent # of setups (B [if strongman], E and 6; 2 and 5; A and C) where they won't know where they're at, which strikes me as potentially unbalanced.

    Also, some of those seem unbalanced comparatively. E is goon+strongman, with a JK and cop, but 6 is same mafia team with a vig and tracker, and B is cop with no other PR's.
    One of the things I was aiming for was to have the setup not transparent for scum from the start (that's the point of what I did with D2/D5 for example)

    i had a hard time making it work in every setup but like 2/3 of them? Are like that in what I did

    And the strongman is essentially a goon in 6 and B

  7. ISO #157
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Alright, thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

    Based on your feedback, I and Pizzaguy came up with this new proposal:

    A B C D E F
    1 Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie Mafia Role Cop Vanilla Townie 1-Shot Mafia Strongman Town Odd Night Cop
    2 Mafia Roleblocker Town Alignment Cop Town Doctor Mafia Ninja Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie
    3 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie 1-Shot Mafia Strongman Town Tracker Town Masons (2) Vanilla Townie 1-Shot Mafia Strongman
    4 1-Shot Mafia Strongman 1-Shot Mafia Bulletproof Town Vigilante Town Bodyguard 2-Shot Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie
    5 Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie Mafia Jailkeeper 1-Shot Mafia Strongman Town Alignment Cop w/ n0 town check Town Jailkeeper
    6 Town Vigilante Town Innocent Child Vanilla Townie Town Tracker 2-Shot Mafia Roleblocker Mafia Watcher

    We have generally nerfed the scum a bit, mostly by removing their extra killpower and instead giving them guaranteed killpower instead.

    Additionally, we have corrected a few of the setups to be less variancey. For example, the mafia JOAT is out of the picture.

    Another notable change is that Setup B (which used to be the classic 17-man vanilla setup with 1 cop w/ n0 peek) now features a cop WITHOUT a n0 peek and have had an Innocent Child added. We did this for two reasons: 1) The Innocent Child in a way replaces the cop's n0 peek and helps reduce variance, and 2) the town already had .44% win rate in this and we would expect it to be lower in a matrix format, because the town doesn't know they have a cop, so by adding an IC we are boosting the number of town claimables and we are also providing a way for the town to know that there's a strong possibility of there being a cop if an IC has claimed.

    Thoughts? I hope people generally can agree that these setups are at least all in the 60-40 area and are good enough to run with. If not, state your objections now!

  8. ISO #158
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Another note is that while I appreciate the efforts of some to try to make mafia not aware of which setup they are in, it was easiest to just consider this a part of the setup and balance around it. But if people still strongly dislike this aspect of it, we may have to just scrap the matrix setup altogether, which we are open to if there are enough objections.

  9. ISO #159
    Thread Analyst BFG's Avatar
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    3 has 2 strongmans?

  10. ISO #160
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFG View Post
    3 has 2 strongmans?
    yup

    their only worth is being able to kill the 1-shot BP townie

    we felt it was fair to have those to counter that role, and then the town has a tracker + 2 masons besides all that which should surely make up for not having a cop with n/0 check

  11. ISO #161
    Soul Reader UpsideDownChuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thingyman
    Thoughts? I hope people generally can agree that these setups are at least all in the 60-40 area and are good enough to run with.

  12. ISO #162
    Thread Analyst TheWhoDoctor's Avatar
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    Isn't B's Mafia OS BP pointless?

  13. ISO #163
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWhoDoctor View Post
    Isn't B's Mafia OS BP pointless?
    It is. So is the Strongman in that one as well. It's a way of boosting the scum in one setup, but not the other.

  14. ISO #164
    Loansharking Blot Test Newcomb's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klopp View Post
    I would prefer playing with just a few roles.
    I think there shouldn't be too many roles because the soul of the game is kind of overshadowed by the roles. By "soul" I mean what in my opinion mafia is all about -> discussions, getting reads on people and mafia trying to outsmart the town with the way they contribute to the thread. I don't like roles at all because someone can be playing a brilliant game as mafia and it might be all for nothing because he(or maybe she) gets killed/detected during the night phase.

    With 13:4 I think playing with just a cop and one special mafia role would be great. It might be less "spectacular" or whatever but it will be more about pure skill of the players.
    Someone plays a poor game as a townie, he is about to get lynched but he claims a role and mafia can only be irritated that they didn't manage to kill of a townie that deserved to be lynched before them. That's not very fair but it happens often. That's also one of the reasons I don't like roles that much.
    But I guess playing with so little roles is not a realistic option here, so yeah, whatever you decide I'll adjust accordingly.
    I agree with this. I liked the format last year; it put the emphasis on behavior and gamesolving over mechanics.

    And if you're trying for an exhibition of player skill, nothing puts a damper on that like "mafia player has amazing D1, fools everyone, is cop checked on a random hunch N1 and outed", or almost worse is the town case, "town player has an amazing mindmeld moment, puts in work, is behaviorally very town, but also rolled Ino Child so the effort is wasted."

    Ino Child on a lurker town is also pretty gross for mafia because it deprives them of a mislynch without that slot having to actually put in the effort to be towny.

    TLR, if you want these games to have the best chance of allowing players to showcase their talents, make it as vanilla as possible and eliminate situations where mechanics would trump behavior.

    Like, personally I'm not a huge fan of guarantied true cop checks in general, unless the game is no flips (like in WitchHunt), and even then you have the Angel/Demon mechanic to inject paranoia and doubt.

  15. ISO #165
    I mean if it's open to discussion I'd rather just bury the matrix, let everyone know ahead of time what roles are in the game, and go at it. Bonus points for just running a vanilla 17er and making people catch/clear people based on posts. With that said, if the matrix is something people would rather do I don't really feel strongly enough to make a big deal out of it and will roll with it.

  16. ISO #166
    Er, by vanilla I mean 12 vanilla villagers, 1 cop, 4 vanilla wolves

  17. ISO #167
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Since we did vanilla last season, we're gonna try something new this season. The majority of the sites are used to playing non-vanilla games.

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    Low Hanging Fruit Danger100ish's Avatar
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    I'm actually a big fan of the setup as it is now.
    Carpe Diem

  19. ISO #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman View Post
    Since we did vanilla last season, we're gonna try something new this season. The majority of the sites are used to playing non-vanilla games.
    :thumb:

    carry on then
    will play whatever

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    Thread Analyst Marco's Avatar
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    I like the updated setup you guys just came up with. And I definitely prefer the semi-open matrix structure.

  21. ISO #171
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa View Post
    i was staring at this and had some thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman View Post
    A B C D E F
    1 Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie Mafia Role Cop Vanilla Townie Mafia Goon Town Even Night Vigilante
    2 Mafia Jailkeeper Town Cop w/ n0 town check Town Doctor Mafia Ninja OR Goon Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie
    3 1-Shot Bulletproof Town Mafia Goon Town Tracker Town Masons (2) Vanilla Townie Mafia Jack of All Trades (1 shot, 1 check, 1 save)
    4 Mafia Role Cop
    Mafia 1-Shot Strongman OR 1-Shot Bulletproof Town Vigilante Town 1-Shot Bulletproof Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie
    5 Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie Mafia Jailkeeper Mafia Ninja OR Goon Town Cop w/n0 town check Town Jailkeeper
    6 Town Vigilante Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie Town Tracker Mafia 1-Shot Strongman Mafia Goon
    (italics are changes. note: in D, ninja + goon always. in 2 or 5, rand)
    a few more steps and you'll be at my setup :P

  22. ISO #172
    The Self Narrator Owner Of A Lonely Heart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb View Post

    Ino Child on a lurker town is also pretty gross for mafia because it deprives them of a mislynch without that slot having to actually put in the effort to be towny.
    Any lurker town in the championship games are probably a disgrace to their community. Even if they are confirmed, they should still be solving the game, especially if it's the 72 hour day 1.

  23. ISO #173
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    strongman is a good idea

  24. ISO #174
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc View Post
    I had an idea from back when this thread was on the go, but procrastination is a bitch

    My goal was to prevent the mafia team from knowing what the setup is on N0, which is in keeping with the Matrix6 design.


    Inspired by the champs setup I had a rough stab at implementing it yesterday and eventually arrived at this.

    I'm sure there are many other combos and refinements possible.

    The table is 5x5, not 6x6...but still has 10 setups with 18 variations (because of randomized mafia roles).

    Also every setup in the champs 6x6 has a vanilla townie so this has effectively the same number of power roles.

    Guns and Ninjas

    A B C D E
    1 Town Cop Mafia Jailkeeper OR Ninja JOAT Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Town 1-Shot Mafia Vigilante
    2 Vanilla Town Town Doctor Mafia Role Cop 1-Shot Mafia Vigilante Town JOAT (1x Peek, 1x Vig, 1x Jail)
    3 Mafia Ninja JOAT Town Tracker 1-Shot Mafia Vigilante Town Innocent Child Town Bodyguard
    4 1-Shot Bulletproof Mafia Role Cop OR Jailkeeper Town Vigilante Mafia Jailkeeper OR Ninja JOAT Vanilla Townie
    5 Mafia 1-Shot Vigilante OR Role Cop Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie 2 Shot Town Commuter Mafia Jailkeeper



    Mod rands the setup (rows and columns), then rand the "OR" statements. This means each setup has a 10% chance of being chosen.
    Note: Setup 4 & Setup B cannot have two jailkeepers.

    Jailkeepers and Doctors cannot target the same player on consecutive nights. Jailkeepers cannot target themselves.

    Villa Cop gets a random n0 town peek. Peeks alignment (town/mafia).

    Mafia Cop gets a n0 peek. Peeks full role.


    Random Thoughts:

    I think Mafia Jailkeepers are good for a matrix because it can effectively just be a Roleblocker (when town have no Vig's) so it's easier to make extra setups for.
    The fun part is that on N1 scum don't know when they need to protect themselves or use it as a roleblock!


    Ninja's are effectively Goons in setups without a Tracker...although I was playing with a role that can choose each night to be either 1) Untrackable or 2) Unpeekable. I stopped playing with it, and even went a step further and arrived at:

    Mafia Ninja JOAT:
    1) Make yourself untrackble for this night phase
    2) Make yourself peek as a villager for this night phase
    3) Wear your bulletproof vest for this night phase (can be re-used until you are shot, at which point this action can no longer be used)

    I think it gives some interesting early game decisions for scum who rand a Ninja.



    Possible Setups & Mafia Pairs:


    1. 1A - Jailkeeper, 1Shot Vigilante. Cop, Jailkeeper, Vanilla.
    2. 1B - Ninja JOAT, 1Shot Vigilante. Vanilla, Doctor, JOAT
    3. 2 - Role Cop, 1Shot Vigilante. Vanilla, Doctor, JOAT
    4. 3 - Ninja JOAT, 1Shot Vigilante. Tracker, Innocent Child, Bodyguard
    5. 4A - Role Cop, Jailkeeper. 1Shot Bulletproof, Vigilante, Vanilla
    6. 4B - Jailkeeper, Ninja JOAT. 1Shot Bulletproof, Vigilante, Vanilla
    7. 4C - Role Cop, Ninja JOAT. 1Shot Bulletproof, Vigilante, Vanilla
    8. 5A - 1Shot Vigilante, Jailkeeper. Vanilla, Vanilla, 2Shot Commuter
    9. 5B - Role Cop, Jailkeeper. Vanilla, Vanilla, 2Shot Commuter
    10. A1 - Ninja JOAT, 1Shot Vigilante. Cop, 1Shot Bulletproof, Vanilla
    11. A2 - Ninja JOAT, Role Cop. Cop, 1Shot Bulletproof, Vanilla
    12. B1 - Jailkeeper, Role Cop. Doctor, Tracker, Vanilla
    13. B2 - Ninja JOAT, Jailekeeper. Doctor, Tracker, Vanilla
    14. B3 - Ninja JOAT, Role Cop. Doctor, Tracker, Vanilla
    15. C - Role Cop, 1Shot Vig. Jailkeeper, Vigilante, Vanilla
    16. D1 - 1Shot Vigilante, Jailkeeper. Vanilla, Innocent Child, 2Shot Commuter
    17. D2 - 1Shot Vigilante, Ninja JOAT. Vanilla, Innocent Child, 2Shot Commuter
    18. E - 1Shot Vigilante, JK. JOAT, Bodyguard, Vanilla



    POSSIBLE TWEAKS:
    - Mafia don't get n0 peek?
    - Town vig replaced by odd/even vig?
    - Ninja cannot use same action consecutively?



    NOTES:
    - All possible mafia teams occur at least twice
    - In Setup D2 the Ninja is effectively vanilla (but he won't know that...)
    - All ninja pairings are such that the ninja will always have at least a 50/50 choice on N1 (unless his cop peeks a PR on N0).
    - Mafia Jailkeeper never knows if there is a town vigilante in the game or not on N1.
    If people don't think the premise above is completely terrible, I have no problems giving it another go tomorrow with roles more similar to the ones in the OP (i.e. no Ninjas )

    ???


    The trick is:
    - The "OR" boxes
    - Using a spiral pattern for the scum roles allows for overlapping combinations

  25. ISO #175
    Thread Analyst fdas's Avatar
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    Mafia doesn't really benefit much from a watcher.

  26. ISO #176
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by fdas View Post
    Mafia doesn't really benefit much from a watcher.
    It's not meant to be super powerful, just a small help for them. Though I'm open to changing it to Tracker. Would that be better iyo?

  27. ISO #177
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Watcher is better imo, regardless of alignment

  28. ISO #178
    Soul Reader MysteriousLad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc View Post
    Watcher is better imo, regardless of alignment
    "MagnificentLad iz best WWN! Glory to MagnificentLad, the Illuminati and pasta!" -Airnike (WWN)

    Lynch: HPD

  29. ISO #179
    Low Hanging Fruit TexCat's Avatar
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    How do I get spectator access? I tried to send PM, but keep getting "You don't have permission". Thanks.

  30. ISO #180
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexCat (#179)
    How do I get spectator access? I tried to send PM, but keep getting "You don't have permission". Thanks.
    Did you try to PM this account? Please try again and screenshot the result for me, thank you.

    In the meantime, I'll PM you a link with access

  31. ISO #181
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Some thoughts after having seen how these games have played out:

    It's too easy for players to figure out which setup they are in. It's quickly apparent whether or not there is a vigilante, and knowing a single role in addition to that will narrow things down considerably. This largely defeats the purpose of having a semi-open roleset since roleclaims can be definitively resolved within a few days in almost all cases.

    I would propose that fewer different roles be used, so that each role in use appears in at least two different squares, and preferably at least three. So, for example, right now there are three different versions of the Town Cop in the game, each appearing only once. Ideally, each of them should be the same with some tweaks to the other roles in order to maintain balance. And the 2x Town Jailkeeper is similar enough in power to the Unlimited Town Jailkeeper that they should be merged into a single role. And so on.

    My preference would be that the mafia does not have enough information from their own roles to be able to deduce which setup they are in. This would open up more strategic options on the early days, as vanilla town members have more ways to draw early nightkills, and mafia would have to be more fearful that there is a protective role in the game who would target the most obvious nightkill choices.

    Thingyman told me it was okay to make this post, but I'd advise anyone from an ongoing game to not comment at this time.

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    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Now that the season is over... I'd love for us to collectively review the Matrix12 setup:

    Matrix12

    A B C D E F
    1 Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie Mafia Role Cop Vanilla Townie 1-Shot Mafia Strongman Town Odd Night Cop
    2 Mafia Roleblocker Town Alignment Cop Town Doctor Mafia Ninja Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie
    3 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie 1-Shot Mafia Strongman Town Tracker Town Masons (2) Vanilla Townie 1-Shot Mafia Strongman
    4 1-Shot Mafia Strongman 1-Shot Mafia Bulletproof Town Vigilante Town Bodyguard 2-Shot Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie
    5 Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie Mafia Jailkeeper 1-Shot Mafia Strongman Town Alignment Cop w/ n0 town check Town Jailkeeper
    6 Town Vigilante Town Innocent Child Vanilla Townie Town Tracker 2-Shot Mafia Roleblocker Mafia Watcher

    The host randomizes a letter or a number, deciding which setup is used. I.e. if the host rands C, then the setup will consist of the roles in the C column. The host then adds 2 Mafia Goons to the setup and fills up the rest with Vanilla Townies.

    I.e. setup C would give you this:
    1x Town Doctor
    1x Town Tracker
    1x Town Vigilante
    10x Vanilla Townie

    1x Mafia Role Cop
    1x Mafia Jailkeeper
    2x Mafia Goon


    These are the completed Matrix12 games:

    - Disney Princesses: Town win in final 3
    - The Princess Bride: Mafia win in final 7 (two townies were modkilled)
    - The Gathering of the Kings: Mafia win in final 3
    - Zelda: Town win in final 5
    - The REAL story about town and mafia: Mafia win in final 7 (mod messed up and gave Mafia Role Cop a n0 peek)
    - The Dover Boys: Mafia win in final 3
    - Fight Club: Town win in final 3
    - Championship Season 3, Game 1: Mafia win in final 7
    - Championship Season 3, Game 2: Mafia win in final 7
    - Championship Season 3, Game 3: Mafia win in final 3
    - Championship Season 3, Game 4: Town win in final 8
    - Championship Season 3, Game 5: Mafia win in final 3
    - Championship Season 3, Game 6: Mafia win in final 6
    - Championship Season 3, Game 7: Mafia win in final 10
    - Championship Season 3, Game 8: Town win in final 7
    - Championship Season 3, Game 9: Town win in final 5
    - Championship Season 3, Finale Game: Town win in final 11

    So the town has won 7 of the 17 games. Also, 6 of the games ended at final 3, so it goes the distance a good amount of the time.

    So based on these two observations, keeping in mind that it's a very small sample, the balance seems at least playable and it doesn't generally seem too swingy.

    I have asked people and I haven't heard anyone say that they felt like they lost due to any unfairness in the balance itself, but rather that they fairly lost due to poor town play, bad luck, inactive townies or just superior mafia play. In some of those games, the setup helped the town to a pretty significant degree - and they still lost. Take Game 1 where the town just had to correctly clear ONE townie in final 7 - or take Game 5 where the setup cleared 3 players who were mislynch targets and could've cleared an additional fourth if the town hadn't been too hasty in hammering said player.

    However, I still think the setup might be slightly pro mafia overall, so I welcome any thoughts.

    I'm very open to us, as a community, making adjustments to it, though I think we would only require small adjustments probably.

  33. ISO #183
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    I'd also be interested in some kind of matrix for a 13p game (IMO 17p is a bit larger than I like). I think I'll try and mull over some ideas and present something in the reasonably near future.
    Life is simply unfair... don't you think?
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  34. ISO #184
    Setup seems fine balance-wise.

    I would say it isn't very fun though, but obviously your mileage may vary on that front.

  35. ISO #185
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 (#183)
    I'd also be interested in some kind of matrix for a 13p game (IMO 17p is a bit larger than I like). I think I'll try and mull over some ideas and present something in the reasonably near future.
    For a 13p game I'd do an advanced Matrix6: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Matrix6

    I.e. I would just add vanilla roles.

  36. ISO #186
    Thread Analyst Golden's Avatar
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    I went in thinking it leant mafia. I still think it probably does slightly.

    However, given I played in too complete town curbstomps, I don't feel like it is unbalanced. Mileage may vary on different worlds, but I feel like it is in essence balanced.

    I find the concept fun enough in theory - the first time I played in a matrix game (as practice for champs), trying to figure out the scum world was interesting. The two times I played in champs, it never really became a thing at all.

  37. ISO #187
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    I stand by what I wrote a few posts above. I guess Stork summed it up pretty well: the balance seems okay but I don't think it really achieves what you want from a game with a semi-open roleset.

  38. ISO #188
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#187)
    I stand by what I wrote a few posts above. I guess Stork summed it up pretty well: the balance seems okay but I don't think it really achieves what you want from a game with a semi-open roleset.
    I personally just wanted balance, but I take your point.

    Do you think you'd be able to draft up a v.2, taking some of the suggestions in your post above?

  39. ISO #189
    agreed with stork and soah

  40. ISO #190
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Others are probably more qualified than me for this type of thing.

  41. ISO #191
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#185)
    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 (#183)
    I'd also be interested in some kind of matrix for a 13p game (IMO 17p is a bit larger than I like). I think I'll try and mull over some ideas and present something in the reasonably near future.
    For a 13p game I'd do an advanced Matrix6: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Matrix6

    I.e. I would just add vanilla roles.
    Except I dislike cop roles and I like variety of options. Plus stuff like a cop w/o n0 check (and in a semi-open instead of full open) or jk alone in 13p otherwise mountainous is I think scum-sided pretty strongly compared to site meta,
    Life is simply unfair... don't you think?
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  42. ISO #192
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    Thoughts on balance in 10v3 of (the rest is vt+goons)

    Jk+doc vs rb
    Jk+2-shot vig vs 2-shot role cop
    Cop+doc vs rb+1-shot strongman
    Cop+2-shot vig vs rb
    Mason's+doc vs rb
    Mason's +doc vs 1-shot strongman
    IC+2-shot jk vs 1-shot strongman
    IC+tracker vs 1-shot strongman (useless in setup)
    Vig+tracker vs goons
    Vig+2-shot jk vs 2-shot role cop

    That's my first pass but I'm guessing balance is meaningfully off in at least a couple. Also in case it's not clear the "key" town role is on the main diagonal (jk, cop, Mason's, Ic, Vig), with the rest of town/Mafia power adjusted to reflect how OP or UP that role is (Mason's get doc protect, but in each game Mafia has a counter; Ic gets a tracker but no counters, or 2-shot jk with Mafia counter, etc)
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  43. ISO #193
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    Fwiw I'd also suggest matrix6 is explicitly unbalanced for tracker +1-shot bp in 7v2; going to 10v3 would only exacerbate the issue I think. 2-shot bp slightly helps, but even there I think it's problematic. Subbing UB for that might help I guess (that fix has been discussed in matrix6 design fwiw).
    Life is simply unfair... don't you think?
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  44. ISO #194
    echoing those above. probably balanced, not that fun of a format tho.

  45. ISO #195
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Needs more ninjas

  46. ISO #196
    Thread Analyst JaggedJimmyJay's Avatar
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    I think most of the possible setups are slightly pro-mafia. It's not an egregious imbalance. I think the season 2 format was more balanced, but also perhaps less interesting (since it was so completely cop-centric).

    Season 4 should just be straight up mountainous, maybe 11v2 or 14v3. That puts everyone on a completely level playing field and it forces an emphasis on the core skills of Mafia -- investigation and deception. Otherwise power roles have an unfair advantage when it comes to post-game voting given their unique capacity to impact a game more heavily. I don't expect this to actually happen, but I'd endorse it.

  47. ISO #197
    Thread Analyst JaggedJimmyJay's Avatar
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    Actually the town win-rate in 11v2 mountainous is less than I expected. Perhaps 12v2.

  48. ISO #198
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#188)
    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#187)
    I stand by what I wrote a few posts above. I guess Stork summed it up pretty well: the balance seems okay but I don't think it really achieves what you want from a game with a semi-open roleset.
    I personally just wanted balance, but I take your point.

    Do you think you'd be able to draft up a v.2, taking some of the suggestions in your post above?
    Okay, I went ahead and put something together:

    Matrix12

    A B C D E F
    1 Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie Mafia Role Cop Vanilla Townie 1-Shot Mafia Strongman Town Alignment Cop
    2 Mafia Roleblocker Town Alignment Cop Town Doctor Mafia Role Cop Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie
    3 Town Watcher Mafia Roleblocker Town Tracker Town Tracker Vanilla Townie 1-Shot Mafia Strongman
    4 1-Shot Mafia Strongman Mafia Role Cop Town Watcher Town Doctor Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie
    5 Vanilla Townie Town Jailkeeper Mafia Roleblocker 1-Shot Mafia Strongman Town Alignment Cop Town Watcher
    6 Town Doctor Town Tracker Vanilla Townie Town Tracker Mafia Roleblocker Mafia Role Cop


    I've removed vigilantes entirely, and every role exists in at least three different squares, so it won't be possible for anyone to narrow down the setup really quickly. The Mafia only have three different power roles and I believe that I distributed them such that they can only narrow it down to four possible setups at the start of the game. Three of the possible setups include two Town Trackers, which adds strategic depth to fake-claiming and resolving claims. I've also gotten rid of Mafia roles which are so weak that they aren't worth being used for fear of being tracked or watched. I think that each of these changes should make the game more fun and interesting.

    I think that the balance is generally okay, but it's hard to be sure without spending more time figuring out all of the nuances of how the different setups overlap with each other. It probably needs some tweaks. For example, 1 and B are similar but the town has an extra role in B and the mafia doesn't have enough of a boost to offset it.

    On that note, though, I did add more Doctors and also brought in Town Watchers so that the Mafia cannot just freely kill off the best players at the start of the game. They also don't have enough information to figure out the setup at the start of the game. This should help the town in ways that are a bit less obvious.

    But these types of games are rather outside of my wheelhouse so I'm not the most qualified to address balance issues. I might be underestimating the town's power in the setups without cops? But I did make sure they had three power roles in each of those setups. I considered limiting Mafia Role Cops to just two shots.

    I also considered adding Godfathers into the mix, though that opens some other cans of worms where the town can't be sure if there is a Godfather in the game or not, and that may not actually be a fun and desirable outcome.

  49. ISO #199
    Replace the 8 champs games with a single mash.

    Perfect.

  50. ISO #200
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#198)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#188)
    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#187)
    I stand by what I wrote a few posts above. I guess Stork summed it up pretty well: the balance seems okay but I don't think it really achieves what you want from a game with a semi-open roleset.
    I personally just wanted balance, but I take your point.

    Do you think you'd be able to draft up a v.2, taking some of the suggestions in your post above?
    Okay, I went ahead and put something together:

    Matrix12

    A B C D E F
    1 Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie Mafia Role Cop Vanilla Townie 1-Shot Mafia Strongman Town Alignment Cop
    2 Mafia Roleblocker Town Alignment Cop Town Doctor Mafia Role Cop Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie
    3 Town Watcher Mafia Roleblocker Town Tracker Town Tracker Vanilla Townie 1-Shot Mafia Strongman
    4 1-Shot Mafia Strongman Mafia Role Cop Town Watcher Town Doctor Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie
    5 Vanilla Townie Town Jailkeeper Mafia Roleblocker 1-Shot Mafia Strongman Town Alignment Cop Town Watcher
    6 Town Doctor Town Tracker Vanilla Townie Town Tracker Mafia Roleblocker Mafia Role Cop


    I've removed vigilantes entirely, and every role exists in at least three different squares, so it won't be possible for anyone to narrow down the setup really quickly. The Mafia only have three different power roles and I believe that I distributed them such that they can only narrow it down to four possible setups at the start of the game. Three of the possible setups include two Town Trackers, which adds strategic depth to fake-claiming and resolving claims. I've also gotten rid of Mafia roles which are so weak that they aren't worth being used for fear of being tracked or watched. I think that each of these changes should make the game more fun and interesting.

    I think that the balance is generally okay, but it's hard to be sure without spending more time figuring out all of the nuances of how the different setups overlap with each other. It probably needs some tweaks. For example, 1 and B are similar but the town has an extra role in B and the mafia doesn't have enough of a boost to offset it.

    On that note, though, I did add more Doctors and also brought in Town Watchers so that the Mafia cannot just freely kill off the best players at the start of the game. They also don't have enough information to figure out the setup at the start of the game. This should help the town in ways that are a bit less obvious.

    But these types of games are rather outside of my wheelhouse so I'm not the most qualified to address balance issues. I might be underestimating the town's power in the setups without cops? But I did make sure they had three power roles in each of those setups. I considered limiting Mafia Role Cops to just two shots.

    I also considered adding Godfathers into the mix, though that opens some other cans of worms where the town can't be sure if there is a Godfather in the game or not, and that may not actually be a fun and desirable outcome.
    Watchers are OP. Not being able to kill off the best players is just too town sided.

    The equivalent would be adding a rule to basketball that says if a team double teams a player, that player's team gets to play with 6 players.

    I understand you probably get N1 killed quite a bit, but I think Discouraging the winning strategy is not good design.

    Good players get killed. Bad players get lynched. That's just how it works.

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