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Thread: Mafia Championship Season 5 Setup - Suggestions?

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    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Mafia Championship Season 5 Setup - Suggestions?

    Hey guys

    It's nearly time for Season 5 of the Mafia Championship. However, before I can send out invitations, we first need to finalize the number of participating communities this year. And in order to finalize that, we need to finalize the setup, so I'm hoping you guys might have some input on this.

    Season 3 numbers: 136 communities
    Season 4 numbers: 165 communities

    Despite the fact that we've increased the numbers each year, I don't want to do that this year (unless I find out there has been a growth in mafia communities online that warrants a further expansion). I think 165 sounds like a good maximum, and 140-150 is probably a good number to hit.

    In conclusion:

    - If we want to run a 17-man setup, it will be either 136 or 153 players
    - If we want to run a 15-man setup, it will be either 135, 150 or 165 players
    - If we want to run a 13-man setup, it will be either 130, 143 or 156 players
    - If we want to run a 11-man setup, it will be either 132, 143, 154 or 165 players
    - If we want to run a 9-man setup, it will be either 135, 144, 153 or 162 players

    I don't think the game size should be higher than 17 or lower than 9. If there are too many players in one game, too many communities won't be able to send representatives that can properly fulfill the activity requirements (or even if they can, they likely just won't enjoy the high activity). And lower than 9 is just not gonna be very fun.

    Advantages to the larger setups is: Fewer games for spectators and jury to follow, each game is longer and probably feels more exciting and epic

    Advantages to the smaller setups is: More managable activity, less subs and inactivity

    Personally, I'd prefer a game for 13, 15, or 17 players, but I'm open to all suggestions. I won't necessarily go with the majority opinion, as I have to weigh how I think communities other than MU will respond to the setup we go with. We are not re-running any of the old setups, so it's a must that it's a new one (i.e. not Vanilla Cop, Matrix12, Mountainous or 20+ Custom Semi-Open).
    Last edited by Thingyman; March 20th, 2018 at 09:48 AM.

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    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Would D6 work? Can someone link me to the details on this setup and maybe give me cliffs on what advantages/disadvantages you think the setup has?

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    13p setups are really more flexible with balance and are universally more common. I also saw so many enjoyable 13p games so for an event like championship 13p games seems reasonable!

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    Season 5 Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Personal preference is a 17-man setup at 153, or a 15-man at 150-165 (though obviously as the main community liaison you're the best judge of how many can feasibly provide reps). This is for a few reasons. First of all, I think fewer games is better for everyone - especially the jury, as discussed in my wrap-up PM to you last year. Second of all, in terms of activity, keep in mind that a lot of champs players will be from people not familiar to MU and thus the posting rate might be naturally depressed as compared to what we're used to on this site.

    D6 is designed for 13 players but I think it can be workable with a higher number? Visorslash is the main designer, pretty sure Lissa was heavily involved as well. This post is potentially relevant.

    A personal suggestion would be not to introduce too much role variance in the qualifier games. Obviously it can't be helped if we want the setup to be semi-open, but it's really not fair on anybody if one game is close to mountainous and another game has some $#@! like an arsonist or something. I'm exaggerating, but you get what I mean.

    I would also suggest being flexible with the wildcards and finale - they don't necessarily have to be married to the same format we use for the qualifiers. For example, if we go with standard D6 13ers or something with the qualifiers, maybe we could switch it up to mountainous for the wildcards and finale. This provides an extra amount of flexibility both in terms of game design as well as player selection for the voters/jury.

    Also, whatever you do, no cops.
    Last edited by GeneralHankerchief; March 20th, 2018 at 11:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#2)
    Would D6 work? Can someone link me to the details on this setup and maybe give me cliffs on what advantages/disadvantages you think the setup has?
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...=1#post1594063

    There might be other variants of D6.

    In general championship will have open setups?

    In that case I think defining a set of setups and randing between them instead of trusting the dice to balance the whole game with it. I mean like making setups A B C and D and then randing between them or something

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#4)
    Also, whatever you do, no cops.
    I'm with GH

    kill direct information

    It's lame

    lets not be lame!

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    Season 5 Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Angel (#3)
    13p setups are really more flexible with balance and are universally more common. I also saw so many enjoyable 13p games so for an event like championship 13p games seems reasonable!
    The problem with 13er games for a format like the Championships is that if Thingy's estimated player total is anything along the lines of what I think it's going to be, the sheer number of games people have to follow will absolutely spiral out of control.

    Like I get that Thingy is shooting in the 140-150 range, but being realistic, Thingy is known for size creep, especially with Champs in the past. I could easily see the number creeping past 160 if not more, which would mean that in a 13er format, we could easily see as many as 13 separate games. Condense this number in the standard two months for qualifiers and you will get a jury that is utterly, utterly burned out by the time everything is over.

    Cut down on the number of games that need to run/be followed and everybody will be fresher at the end.
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    Season 5 Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Alternately, you could just get the greens to create X amount of custom setups for whatever game size we decide on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#7)
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Angel (#3)
    13p setups are really more flexible with balance and are universally more common. I also saw so many enjoyable 13p games so for an event like championship 13p games seems reasonable!
    The problem with 13er games for a format like the Championships is that if Thingy's estimated player total is anything along the lines of what I think it's going to be, the sheer number of games people have to follow will absolutely spiral out of control.

    Like I get that Thingy is shooting in the 140-150 range, but being realistic, Thingy is known for size creep, especially with Champs in the past. I could easily see the number creeping past 160 if not more, which would mean that in a 13er format, we could easily see as many as 13 separate games. Condense this number in the standard two months for qualifiers and you will get a jury that is utterly, utterly burned out by the time everything is over.

    Cut down on the number of games that need to run/be followed and everybody will be fresher at the end.
    I have no sense of numbers and this thing this is a really fair point

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    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#8)
    Alternately, you could just get the greens to create X amount of custom setups for whatever game size we decide on.
    actually we have an idea for that, hold that thought.

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    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Timetable for deciding this is within 1 week btw

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    [DOUBT IT]
    Last edited by Champ; March 20th, 2018 at 01:17 PM.

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    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    expanding d6 to fit 17 players would be my favorite option.

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    Face the Music Virtuoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquilla (#13)
    expanding d6 to fit 17 players would be my favorite option.
    Agreed. I started a thread about that somewhere.

    Also i would love to host some games
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    Lost Weasley Brother Allundberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Champ (#12)
    Jesters

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    this is pretty bad modding

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    Please allow me to moderate a game or something! I really want to be a part of this event!

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    Klopp Killa Panther's Avatar
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    one concern I see here is that the jury has to follow so many games

    one thought: split the jury up so that one subset follows games 1-6 and another follows games 7-12 (or whatever)

    the counter to that point is an inability to measure one jury's selections vs the other jury's selections

    in-game players vote for who advances...and the jury is just for wild card selection, correct?

    another thought is to let the in-game votes also serve to select wild-card participants. or to let the in-games votes serve to select a subset of potential wildcard players that the jury then weighs in on paring down

    idk...seems like having a jury that has to read 10 games or 13 games isn't a whole lot different and is a large burden no matter how you slice it

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    GOAT Tier bearsquared's Avatar
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    I'm with GH in that a 17er using a D6 variant and no cops would be a good format to use. The downside here is I don't think there is a copless 17er D6 variant currently and one would need to be made and preferably tested a few times.

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    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#18)
    I'm with GH in that a 17er using a D6 variant and no cops would be a good format to use. The downside here is I don't think there is a copless 17er D6 variant currently and one would need to be made and preferably tested a few times.
    a 100% copless will be super hard to balance, I proposed having alignment cop only for prs be possible. But outside of that it's iffy yeah.

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    I don’t think 15 is a good number to design a game around, and anything smaller than that is too small for the reasons GH covered. Basically I just agree with GH.

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    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zapp Brannigan (#20)
    I don’t think 15 is a good number to design a game around, and anything smaller than that is too small for the reasons GH covered. Basically I just agree with GH.
    I think 17 is what we wanna aim for personally.

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    Klopp Killa Panther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquilla (#19)
    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#18)
    I'm with GH in that a 17er using a D6 variant and no cops would be a good format to use. The downside here is I don't think there is a copless 17er D6 variant currently and one would need to be made and preferably tested a few times.
    a 100% copless will be super hard to balance, I proposed having alignment cop only for prs be possible. But outside of that it's iffy yeah.
    having alignment cop only for prs be possible
    huh?

    like...it fails unless it's used on a non-vanilla?

    so not requiring full automated setup?

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    JAMES MCCLOWN Frog's Avatar
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    This isn't a joke suggestion.

    It's the barebones of a widely popular non-bastard variant.

    I honestly think this variant deserves consideration:


    32 Player Vanilla Mash w/ITAs no Events
    • 8 x Mafia
    • 24 x Town


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    Season 5 Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panther (#17)
    one concern I see here is that the jury has to follow so many games

    one thought: split the jury up so that one subset follows games 1-6 and another follows games 7-12 (or whatever)

    the counter to that point is an inability to measure one jury's selections vs the other jury's selections


    in-game players vote for who advances...and the jury is just for wild card selection, correct?

    another thought is to let the in-game votes also serve to select wild-card participants. or to let the in-games votes serve to select a subset of potential wildcard players that the jury then weighs in on paring down

    idk...seems like having a jury that has to read 10 games or 13 games isn't a whole lot different and is a large burden no matter how you slice it
    I get this sentiment but strongly disagree with it, because then there's no direct comparison between all games that are happening, which isn't fair for any of the players. If Jurors A, B, and C value one subset of overall skill more highly than jurors X, Y, and Z, and you're a player who's good at that particular skill, then if you miss out on a wildcard spot because you got put in a game that Jurors X, Y, and Z are assigned to, that sucks.

    Also, speaking from experience, there's a huge difference between 10 games and 13 games. With last year, for example, I'd say the jury was still pretty much in good shape until the final couple of weeks, specifically starting at the week where Games 8, 9, and 10 all started within 24 hours of each other. We managed, but it was rough. Cutting down on the number of games really does matter.
    Last edited by GeneralHankerchief; March 20th, 2018 at 03:38 PM.
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    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panther (#22)
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquilla (#19)
    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#18)
    I'm with GH in that a 17er using a D6 variant and no cops would be a good format to use. The downside here is I don't think there is a copless 17er D6 variant currently and one would need to be made and preferably tested a few times.
    a 100% copless will be super hard to balance, I proposed having alignment cop only for prs be possible. But outside of that it's iffy yeah.
    having alignment cop only for prs be possible
    huh?

    like...it fails unless it's used on a non-vanilla?

    so not requiring full automated setup?
    no I mean like cop 17'er, but like cop combined with any other pr is a dead no.

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    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frog (#23)
    This isn't a joke suggestion.

    It's the barebones of a widely popular non-bastard variant.

    I honestly think this variant deserves consideration:


    32 Player Vanilla Mash w/ITAs no Events
    • 8 x Mafia
    • 24 x Town

    I would highly advize against mountainious two years in a row. Regardless of size.

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    JAMES MCCLOWN Frog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquilla (#26)
    Quote Originally Posted by Frog (#23)
    This isn't a joke suggestion.

    It's the barebones of a widely popular non-bastard variant.

    I honestly think this variant deserves consideration:


    32 Player Vanilla Mash w/ITAs no Events
    • 8 x Mafia
    • 24 x Town

    I would highly advize against mountainious two years in a row. Regardless of size.
    It has in thread attacks though

  28. ISO #28
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frog (#27)
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquilla (#26)
    Quote Originally Posted by Frog (#23)
    This isn't a joke suggestion.

    It's the barebones of a widely popular non-bastard variant.

    I honestly think this variant deserves consideration:


    32 Player Vanilla Mash w/ITAs no Events
    • 8 x Mafia
    • 24 x Town

    I would highly advize against mountainious two years in a row. Regardless of size.
    It has in thread attacks though
    still no.

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    Mafia Backup Amrock sheepsaysmeep's Avatar Game Manager
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    i have a few hours so i'll unofficially play around with a larger d6 and prolly give up by tmrw

    edit if there's any help wanted bts in terms of setup design or possibly some help hosting i'd be down
    Last edited by sheepsaysmeep; March 20th, 2018 at 03:42 PM.
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    JAMES MCCLOWN Frog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquilla (#28)
    Quote Originally Posted by Frog (#27)
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquilla (#26)
    Quote Originally Posted by Frog (#23)
    This isn't a joke suggestion.

    It's the barebones of a widely popular non-bastard variant.

    I honestly think this variant deserves consideration:


    32 Player Vanilla Mash w/ITAs no Events
    • 8 x Mafia
    • 24 x Town

    I would highly advize against mountainious two years in a row. Regardless of size.
    It has in thread attacks though
    still no.
    So I guess it would need to be a semi-open mash like D6. womp womp

  31. ISO #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#2)
    Would D6 work? Can someone link me to the details on this setup and maybe give me cliffs on what advantages/disadvantages you think the setup has?
    i'm new to this site and i'm definitely not gonna participate in the tournament but i wanna post my impression of d6 i guess

    i think d6 setup is townsided for a few reasons, its pretty much impossible for scum to fakeclaim any roles in it because town can deduce which pr is real quite easily with a mass at any point in the game, and scum has no possibility of role cop so it's impossible for them to find which PRs are in the setup for a safe claim. this means that you can take PR claims at face value and it's basically random luck how many free clears town rolls at the start of the game. it feels kind of like mountainous but with town having bonus cop peeks and/or the ability to confirm 2 to 4 people as town at any time by just using logic to find out if the roles fit together

    i also think think vigilante rolls are redundant in d6 and dont understand why vigilante is included in the rand for a setup with an odd number of people. vigilante rarely has any utility whatsoever in a setup with an odd player count, but if doctor happens to save then vigilante's presence nets town a free ML which means that the setup can swing based on RNG pretty hard

    most semi-closed setups have similar problems, i don't even know how to begin to suggest fixing these except to start off by saying that scum should have a guaranteed role cop, or maybe that scum should be given more information at the start of the game, they seem relatively uninformed

    for something super competitive mountainous is more awesomer, or maybe just a cop 13 or 17er

    EDIT: i guess scum can deduce which PRs are in-setup if they kill a PR but this still requires some guess work and a fortuitious kill in the first place

    EDIT2: for people saying no cops, i'm pretty sure that d6 is even more townsided than a cop 13er, roles confirming eachother in-setup are basically inno reports, and if town only has 1 role it's a cop anyway. u could probably reduce how townsided a cop (X)'er is by giving scum a rolecop with an n0 peek
    Last edited by remember; March 20th, 2018 at 07:37 PM.

  32. ISO #32
    the problem with the d6 format in general is that you basically aren't even playing a semi-closed setup, it's essentially an open setup (with the caveat that town has MUCH more information than scum on PRs, disadvantaging them and putting them in a position where they can't claim unless the stars align) as soon as the first claim drops b/c massclaim can be initiated at pretty much any time and scum will likely die if they try to mix in with the PR claims

    if you wanna do semi-closed right the roles shouldn't be able to confirm eachother with "role sudoku"
    Last edited by remember; March 20th, 2018 at 07:55 PM.

  33. ISO #33
    (i don't know how many times i have to say this)

    but dont use D6. its intended purely as a replacement for C9++ in offering a more balanced experience. (both of which should not be used in a situation where you want fine tuned balance)

    hence limiting PRs to 3 max (which is already too many for most setups but it kinda works anyway).

    some D6 setups are townsided, and some would consider to be scumsided, all are relatively in the bounds of playability (with some being more painful than others)

    in any event, there should definitely not be a 13er setup run

    i could go into more detail on remembers posts (its semi open not semi closed, fakeclaiming is really $#@!ing hard to implement in small setup/modular setup, PRs scale based on strength, etc)

    but I don't think it should be played so its moot.

    IMPO, host a 17 player setup. its the best size for spectating from a jury perspective at least and gives you far more freedom when designing roles.

    On creating a setup for it? Well, thats harder unless you want to go full closed setup.

    The problem with open/semi open setups is that anyone who knows vaguely how a setup is created knows there is no possible way there will be more than 4 town PRs (and 4 is cutting it, as 3 is in a 13er)

    Most of the time you'll get something like 3 Prs and 2 mafia prs. And straying too far further (reducing town prs forces them to be stronger and reducing mafia prs, and same the other way) has problems of introducing more and more variance and role interactions, and being generally less fun for people to play in either alignment.

    all semi open type setups have fake claiming as a problem. matrix 12 had that too, and so will any open game if you want to create a setup that allows fake claiming it either has to have enough variability that claiming a role in every setup case will not backfire for mafia, but also that multiple mafia can get away with claiming and that town still has enough power that they feel they can achieve something

    then it also comes down to what people find fun

    a lot of people enjoy open setups a lot more than closed setups

    so you need to decide closed or open/semi open (or semi closed if you can come up with a good design)

    closed offers fake claiming, but its incredibly dull to watch from a spectator point of view considering the nature of the setups anyway

    might post more on this later.

  34. ISO #34
    other problems with closed setups: more prs (on both sides, with town getting an extra boost typically) obv not for every game but for design in general (ask smith etc)

    the more role power given, the more mafia kp has to be considered and you may not want extra mafia kp, gets far too variable if it is needed, let alone if it occurs

    there are others but i dont feel like discussing it that much further

    the key really is to decide, will I be hosting soem form of semi open/closed setup or will it be a closed setup.

    If its closed, just get the setup managers to come up with however many 17er player setups you want, it won't be that difficult to come up with some decent ones (hell you can extrapolate based on the ideas we had for playable 13ers in the ms balancing thread)

    if its semi open/closed well, then you need to decide if you want fake claiming to be viable for scum (and town, technically) which means semi closed for fake claiming (idk how thatd work, maybe i'll look into it this weekend) and semi open doesnt really have room for fake claiming at all, as it is a setup which solves itself based on some flips

    so yeah, thingy, let us know what you are thinking re what you want for the games this year and im sure the setup managers will do something anyway

    open
    semi open - no fake claiming (1 for 1 trade at best), setup solves itself

    semi closed - would basically be just knowing modbot roles (assuming they are automated games),assuming setup cant really be solved, fake claims hopefully viable

    closed - setup cant be solved, could be manually hosted include more complex designs, fake claims viable,

    problem with automated closed setups is that after some flips town can guess whether certain roles would make sense with balance but depends how much you're willing to entertain gaming the setup like that

  35. ISO #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#34)
    if its semi open/closed well, then you need to decide if you want fake claiming to be viable for scum (and town, technically) which means semi closed for fake claiming (idk how thatd work, maybe i'll look into it this weekend)
    you can roughly set it up kinda like this

    roll a d6 for each category:

    Category 1
    1 - no PR
    2 - no PR
    3 - PR #1
    4 - PR #2
    5 - PR #3
    6 - PR #4

    Category 2
    1 - no PR
    2 - no PR
    3 - PR #5
    4 - PR #6
    5 - PR #7
    6 - PR #8

    Category 3
    1 - no PR
    2 - no PR
    3 - PR #9
    4 - PR #10
    5 - PR #11
    6 - PR #12

    give scum PRs based on how you do in standard d6 (Town PRs -1, d6 from a table)

    might be swingy depending on the power of the PRs but leaves open room for fakeclaims as well as legit claims to be distrusted even without a cc and seems less townsided

    as long as you don't give out strong roles like parity cops, n0 peekers, jk'ers or whatever it should be fine
    Last edited by remember; March 20th, 2018 at 10:38 PM.

  36. ISO #36
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    Would like to pop in and point out what may be a minor issue with closed setups;

    the concept of balance is variable across all mafia sites. naturally we have MU v MS where MS has a ton more town PRs by MU standards, but you also have sites that only plays Sukilimas games - I say this with no malice, I'm not even thinking of FR but Neoseeker at this point, for example. and those sorts of games are playable, and fun, and I wouldn't have it any other way, and something something attention span because of PRs.

    now obviously that's not a big problem and hasn't been, we show the setups to the champions and communities beforehand and they're like, ok, this is what we play with. For closed setups though, you can't really show anything to the communities. so uh, closed setups end up having a slight bit of balancing, metagaming knowledge that doesn't really work if they're not familiar with community powerlevels. like, you enter a game and some players might expect there to be one more cop than normal, or that 1-shot BPV is actually full, idk. And this sort of thing is... it's not something that's very... conducive to a cross-community event. also it's not really an indicator of wide-ranging mafia skill, more an indicator of local... mafia skill.

    uh, yeah.

    think that kind of describes my issue with closed setups. Think it's an issue that can be rectified in some way, though, or may be just a negligible issue.
    childhood ends on september 30, 2010
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  37. ISO #37
    Quote Originally Posted by remember (#35)
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#34)
    if its semi open/closed well, then you need to decide if you want fake claiming to be viable for scum (and town, technically) which means semi closed for fake claiming (idk how thatd work, maybe i'll look into it this weekend)
    you can roughly set it up kinda like this

    roll a d6 for each category:

    Category 1
    1 - no PR
    2 - no PR
    3 - PR #1
    4 - PR #2
    5 - PR #3
    6 - PR #4

    Category 2
    1 - no PR
    2 - no PR
    3 - PR #5
    4 - PR #6
    5 - PR #7
    6 - PR #8

    Category 3
    1 - no PR
    2 - no PR
    3 - PR #9
    4 - PR #10
    5 - PR #11
    6 - PR #12

    give scum PRs based on how you do in standard d6 (Town PRs -1, d6 from a table)

    might be swingy depending on the power of the PRs but leaves open room for fakeclaims as well as legit claims to be distrusted even without a cc and seems less townsided

    as long as you don't give out strong roles like parity cops, n0 peekers, jk'ers or whatever it should be fine
    This was actually one of the ideas I looked into initially (but only with 1 null rand) but I discarded it because i didnt think it worked v well at first glance but i'll take a deeper look

    N means no PR, numbers correspond to PR in remembers post


    6:0:0 (4/N/N) - once 4 flips/claims it is confirmed/1-1 at best
    0:6:0 (N/8/N) - once 8 flips/claims it is confirmed/1-1 at best
    0:0:6 (N/N/12)- once 12 flips/claims it is confirmed/1-1 at best

    5:1:0 (3/N/N) - once 3 flips/claims it is confirmed/1-1 at best
    5:0:1 (3/N/N) - once 3 flips/claims it is confirmed/1-1 at best
    0:5:1 (N/7/N) - once 7 flips/claims it is confirmed/1-1 at best
    1:5:0 (N/7/N) - once 7 flips/claims it is confirmed/1-1 at best
    0:1:5 (N/N/11) - once 11 flips/claims it is confirmed/1-1 at best
    1:0:5 (N/N/11) - once 11 flips/claims it is confirmed/1-1 at best

    4:0:2 (2/N/N)
    4:2:0 (2/N/N)
    4:1:1 (2/N/N)
    2:4:0 (N/6/N)
    1:4:1 (N/6/N)
    0:4:2 (N/6/N)
    0:2:4 (N/N/10)
    2:0:4 (N/N/10)
    1:1:4 (N/N/10) etc

    3:0:3 (1/N/9)
    0:3:3 (N/5/9)
    1:3:2 (N/5/N)
    3:2:1 (1/N/N)
    3:1:2 (1/N/N)
    3:3:0 (1/5/N)
    2:3:1 (N/5/N)
    2:1:3 (N/N/9)
    1:2:3 (N/N/9)

    2:2:2 (N/N/N) (mafia know there are no prs, can theoretically claim here)

    now, you can argue I guess that 2:2:2 offers sanctity for mafia to claim in the single PR worlds but again depends on the prs/people may just take the claim as gospel, etc

    (10:3 is also pretty unfair on town, and then giving the potential for mafia to claim their way out is ouch)


    every role bar 1/5/9 auto confirms on claim, as they cant exist elsewhere (if you take the claim as gospel, ignore the low percentage chance of mountainous $#@!ing over the village)

    So it offers fake claimability for the N/N/9 (claim 1/5), N/5/N (claim 9 or 1) and 1/N/N (claim 5 or 9) because there are setups that exist that have 1/5 or 1/9 or 5/9

    however they'd have to time their claim right to not be questioned whether they are still alive and those prs would have to be claimable without being outing if they dont die (aka oracle or something)

    but its still a viable option

    the thing with mountainous option is that it is a low percentage play that it is often worth taking the risk that the claim is true and it is a real feel bad moment if it isn't

    obv you have to consider game state, etc

    my maths, etc might be wrong here
    Last edited by Visorslash; March 20th, 2018 at 11:25 PM.

  38. ISO #38
    Quote Originally Posted by SmartBomb (#36)
    Would like to pop in and point out what may be a minor issue with closed setups;

    the concept of balance is variable across all mafia sites. naturally we have MU v MS where MS has a ton more town PRs by MU standards, but you also have sites that only plays Sukilimas games - I say this with no malice, I'm not even thinking of FR but Neoseeker at this point, for example. and those sorts of games are playable, and fun, and I wouldn't have it any other way, and something something attention span because of PRs.

    now obviously that's not a big problem and hasn't been, we show the setups to the champions and communities beforehand and they're like, ok, this is what we play with. For closed setups though, you can't really show anything to the communities. so uh, closed setups end up having a slight bit of balancing, metagaming knowledge that doesn't really work if they're not familiar with community powerlevels. like, you enter a game and some players might expect there to be one more cop than normal, or that 1-shot BPV is actually full, idk. And this sort of thing is... it's not something that's very... conducive to a cross-community event. also it's not really an indicator of wide-ranging mafia skill, more an indicator of local... mafia skill.

    uh, yeah.

    think that kind of describes my issue with closed setups. Think it's an issue that can be rectified in some way, though, or may be just a negligible issue.
    yeah thats a fair point

    open/semi open etc gives a level playing field whilst closed can be harder for non site meta players to get a handle on, plus gives a bonus to those who have played here before

  39. ISO #39
    visor, that isn't quite what i was suggesting

    you don't roll a d6 6 times and pick from each category, what you do is roll a d6 3 times, once for each category, and the number you get correlates to the role picked, ergo the setup can't be solved based on the other prs

    example:

    d6: 1, 3, 5

    category 1: no pr
    category 2: role #5
    category 3: role #11
    Last edited by remember; March 20th, 2018 at 11:24 PM.

  40. ISO #40
    ah i see, my bad

    would have to balance all the PR combinations, and 3 PR setups arent really fake claimable in

    but seems viable enough

  41. ISO #41
    EDIT: nvm
    Last edited by remember; March 20th, 2018 at 11:30 PM.

  42. ISO #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#40)
    ah i see, my bad

    would have to balance all the PR combinations, and 3 PR setups arent really fake claimable in

    but seems viable enough
    yeah you need to run it with pretty bland PRs, nothing super powerful

    it isn't a setup that would be super memorable to play, but for the purposes of the mafia championship i think it's servicable

    just one idea for that

  43. ISO #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#40)
    and 3 PR setups arent really fake claimable in
    the beauty of the setup is that scum doesn't necessarily need to fake claim, even in a 3 pr setup the prs can be distrusted due to the layout, town may think legit prs are fakeclaiming and vice versa

    and with scum having (town PRs -1) they will always know how many PRs there are

    EDIT 2: scum PR flips can also give town info on setup (how many PRs we got), so rewarded for good playing
    Last edited by remember; March 20th, 2018 at 11:34 PM.

  44. ISO #44
    Quote Originally Posted by remember (#43)
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#40)
    and 3 PR setups arent really fake claimable in
    the beauty of the setup is that scum doesn't necessarily need to fake claim, even in a 3 pr setup the prs can be distrusted due to the layout, town may think legit prs are fakeclaiming and vice versa
    ya but then you have to wonder if balance isnt swinging the other way

    if the prs are kinda bland and people will lynch them (some of the time), it takes away some of their power and mafia already have a numbers advantage

    its definitely more viable than d6 for this i agree

  45. ISO #45
    it might have to be a manual setup (or reduced to d5s or something if automated)

    not too sure how many actual bland PRs modbot has implemented

    most seem relatively powerful

  46. ISO #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#44)
    ya but then you have to wonder if balance isnt swinging the other way
    yeah, this is fair too, but it's the price you're gonna be paying if you don't want claims to be autocleared in a randed setup

    if modbot had some special roles (maybe a tracker that can track night visits unless they're a factional kill which go undetected, so can only pick up PR visits, both mafia and town) town could sometimes have a way to piece together the setup

    flipping mafia PRs upon lynch also gives town some setup info, scum would be pretty hosed for instance if both of their PRs got lynched into the endgame

  47. ISO #47
    i don't know all PRs modbot has, so i cant comment on how to actually balance it

    but you get my idea, so last post for me in this thread, good luck figuring your tournament out guys

  48. ISO #48
    here are the full prs for automated games



    not a lot of weak prs sadly

  49. ISO #49
    (there would also be a bunch of roles id scratch from that list purely from being unfun and some jsut wouldnt work in the setup (i.e cant have cop, because cop plus multiple Prs is a disaster for scum)

  50. ISO #50
    Quote Originally Posted by remember (#46)
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#44)
    ya but then you have to wonder if balance isnt swinging the other way
    yeah, this is fair too, but it's the price you're gonna be paying if you don't want claims to be autocleared in a randed setup

    if modbot had some special roles (maybe a tracker that can track night visits unless they're a factional kill which go undetected, so can only pick up PR visits, both mafia and town) town could sometimes have a way to piece together the setup

    flipping mafia PRs upon lynch also gives town some setup info, scum would be pretty hosed for instance if both of their PRs got lynched into the endgame
    ya for sure, its a tough thing to evaluate

    it should hopefully be easier for a 17er given it has a little more room to breathe

    might have to look at alternate solutions for randing instead of any sort of d6 thingo, depends on if the games will be automated or not (i assume so because adverti$ement of Mu)

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