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Thread: Season 5 Mafia Championship Setup: 2x5

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    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Season 5 Mafia Championship Setup: 2x5

    The Official Season 5 Mafia Championship Setup: 2x5

    What you will find below is our second official draft for Season 5's official setup. I.e. it's not necessarily locked in; If there seems to be widespread agreement that some of the individual possible setups need tweaking, then that can definitely still happen. However, the overall concept behind the setup will not change.

    To give you some insight into how we came up with this, we gave ourselves the following restrictions:

    • No Town Alignment Cops, Full Cops, Role Cops or Parity Cops
    • No Town Alignment Oracles or Role Oracles
    • No Town Full Vigilantes or Day Vigilantes
    • No Town Watchers
    • No Town Bodyguards
    • No Town Innocent Children or Town Masons

    To sum up we felt these roles were either too powerful and/or wouldn't work well in a Championship setting where it's important that each player gets an equal chance to shine, so to say.


    SETUP DETAILS FOR 2X5

    This is a semi-open grid setup meant for 17 players: 4 mafia versus 13 townies.

    Column 1 Column 2
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Role Cop
    Row A Town Even Night Vigilante
    Town Roleblocker
    Town Voyeur
    Town Even Night Vigilante
    Town Roleblocker
    Town Tracker
    Row B Town Even Night Vigilante
    Town Jailkeeper
    Town Even Night Vigilante
    Town Jailkeeper
    Town Voyeur
    Row C Town Tracker
    Town Jailkeeper
    Town Tracker
    Town Jailkeeper
    Town Voyeur
    Row D Town Tracker
    Town Roleblocker
    Town Voyeur
    Town Jack of All Trades*
    Town Even Night Vigilante
    Town Motion Detector
    Row E Town Doctor
    Town Jack of All Trades*
    Town Doctor
    Town Roleblocker
    Town Motion Detector

    *Town Jack of All Trades: 1x Vigilante, 1x Roleblocker, 1x Tracker.

    Method for randing:
    First you randomly select a number to decide the mafia team's composition of Power Roles (1-2), then you randomly select a letter to decide the town's composition of Power Roles (A-E). Fill in the number of Vanilla Townies needed to make the town team have 13 members total, and you have your setup. I.e. if you randed 2 and A, then you'd get the following setup:

    Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia Role Cop
    vs.
    Town Even Night Vigilante, Town Jailkeeper, Town Voyeur, 10 Vanilla Townies

    So the general idea is that as a townie, you know you're up against one of 2 possible mafia team compositions. And as a mafia you know you're up against one of 5 possible town team compositions. The more powerful the mafia team is, the more power is given to the town team, naturally.

    Important setup notes:
    • The mafia's factional kill must be assigned to a single member of their team each night. This means that the mafia's factional kill can, for example, be blocked by a Town Jailkeeper or tracked by a Town Tracker.
    • None of the included roles can self-target, including the protective roles.
    • Doctors, Jailkeepers, and Roleblockers are not allowed to target the same players on consecutive nights.
    • The Even Night Vigilante may only shoot on even nights (i.e. Night 2, Night 4, etc.).
    • There are no night 0 actions (aka pre-game actions).

    Role explanations:
    Please go to this page to read about the different roles if you're unfamiliar with them: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...oles-Modifiers

    And then these two haven't yet been added to the above page, but will be soon:

    The Voyeur learns what actions were performed on a player, but not who targeted them.

    The Motion Detector learns if any actions were performed by or on a player, but not what they were, or who else was involved.
    Last edited by Thingyman; April 11th, 2018 at 02:19 PM.

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    ok

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    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    NOTES:

    Based on the feedback given to our first draft, and looking more closely at the balance of Matrix12 used for season 3, we agreed that the "3x5 setup" was too mafiasided, and this is our attempt at fixing this.

    Also, we removed column 3, for two purposes: We wanted to simplify the overall setup to make it more accessible to the mafia champions coming from many different communities, and we decided we didn't want it to be possible that a game had more than 4 PR's total in it, as that would detract too much from the regular old reading and bluffing each other aspect of the game.

    Please give us your feedback on whether you find this setup overall playable and balanced.
    Last edited by Thingyman; April 11th, 2018 at 02:26 PM.

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    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Specifically, we are pondering whether Town Jack of All Trades needs one more 1x use of an ability, if anyone has any thoughts on that.

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    Season 5 Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Consensus-ish in spec chat is to add a 1x motion detector to the Town JOAT abilities. Evens out 1e nicely, doesn't impact 2d all that much (awkwardness aside).
    Lenny - Today at 10:08 AM
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    Mafia Backup Amrock sheepsaysmeep's Avatar Game Manager
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    this def looks playable

    i would add a doc to the joat?
    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#67)
    Stop calling things natural. This world isnt natural. You can get butt implants and $#@!

  7. ISO #7
    Town Doctor
    Town Roleblocker
    Town Motion Detector
    in before a 72/24 game uses this setup and goes on for a month

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    GOAT Tier Champ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#7)
    Town Doctor
    Town Roleblocker
    Town Motion Detector
    in before a 72/24 game uses this setup and goes on for a month
    you should be punished with mountainous if you inconvience everyone by choosing 72/24

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    Wants It More beruru's Avatar
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    still don't understand why this isn't just 1x10 with mafia role cop
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    Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea.
    "I don't see any wine," she remarked.

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  10. ISO #10
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#5)
    Consensus-ish in spec chat is to add a 1x motion detector to the Town JOAT abilities. Evens out 1e nicely, doesn't impact 2d all that much (awkwardness aside).
    yeah this is the goal of adding something btw (for anyone who wasn't in that convo) - help out 1e more than 2d

    2d already has a full motion detector and 3 other targeting roles, so motion detection sees a lot more noise in that setup and thus seeing something is less specifically informative

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    Mafia Backup Amrock sheepsaysmeep's Avatar Game Manager
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    need specification on if vig shows categories or what type of action?

    eg investigative, killing, blocking or tracking, vigging, jailkeeping
    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#67)
    Stop calling things natural. This world isnt natural. You can get butt implants and $#@!

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    Mafia Backup Amrock sheepsaysmeep's Avatar Game Manager
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    voyeur*
    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#67)
    Stop calling things natural. This world isnt natural. You can get butt implants and $#@!

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    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    categories, though jailkeep gonna be its own thing

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    Penalty Box Virtuoso's Avatar
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    Much better and simpler than 3x5
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    Soul Reader Quick's Avatar
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    I am wondering if it might be better to make the setups (barring Mafia roles ofc) be completely symmetrical...

    Ex. Motion Detector can narrow down the setup to 2 possible setups while even night vig can only narrow it down to 5. Therefore, Motion Detector would have the best idea of the setup compared to any player in the game at the start.

    I realize these roles function differently, but Motion Detector as it is has more information that what initially appears. Could someone explain how this evens out?

    That said, IDK what the abilities that Motion Detector actually has. It could just be something simple like "You saw movement" or it could be "you say X amount of movements"

    Without going into detail of what would be correct play, why doesn't the setup with JOAT, Vig, and MD have too much killing power and conversely to this the setup with Doc, RB, and MD seem to have the opposite kind of dynamic? MD can possibly figure out the setup by D2.
    Retired

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    Wants It More Jon Paul's Avatar
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    I don't think mafia having a role cop really justifies any of Row A, B, or D. As town would glady give mafia a role cop to have that town power, and as mafia would not want to have a role cop in exchange for giving town that much power. The setups seems pretty town sided in general IMO.

    With 17 player pods, how is the process of advancement going to be handled?

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    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    One step closer to 1x5

    Progress

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    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    So, about the part where i was wasting time pointing out issues in an "outdated setup"...but the new setup didnt address any of them


    Anyone have any thoughts?

    The KP problem (that made the vengefuls weird) still exists with the JOAT (and to a lesser extent the Even Vig) because assuming there will be a save/RB seems like a bad assumption.
    Most likely a single player will be take a shot, remove a mislynch...and deny other players a chance to play (in a format that is supposed to be about showcasing, right?)

    Here are the numbers for that:



    Vanilla 17er
    5 mislynches = loss. 5 villagr KP.

    JOAT KILL

    13v4
    MisLynch
    Kill
    Vig

    10/4
    ML x3
    K x3

    4/4 parity. 4 mislynches = loss. Still only 5 village KP.


    Even Vig who shoots once is the same.



    Even Vig who shoots twice
    - still only 4 mislynches... But the game ends 3v4 or continues at 4v3 of Vig hits a wolf.

    6 village KP. 8 players doe before N4, the vig needs to not be one.

    (I really liked the prev iteration that gave town a backup vig)
    For the KP numbers:

    If we do go ahead and assume a town block/save. Then the vig is not removing a mislynch...and is all upside.

    But you end up in a "win more"/snowball situation, you are getting the block (a save AND a pseudo-redcheck) Or you are getting the person wolves most wanted dead...still alive. That alone should be your reward for the save, but now you are also getting this extra reward of a free vig shot.

    So its like, in the situation where you get a block/save you have double upside. And in the situation where you dont get one is double downside.

    When the vig shot is good...you were already winning. When the vig shot is bad, you were already losing (cause all your PRs have been missing).

    I hope that makes sense.
    I am ready for ppl to tell me that a role cop is worth an additional town PR.

    I direct you to every wolfchat ever, where wolves were given a role cop and no roleblocker.


    Its usually salty. Wolves dont care about role cops
    Last edited by Apoc; April 12th, 2018 at 10:09 AM.

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    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    For 1C, 1D & 1E

    I think i'd still rather have a single alignment cop with a n0?
    i.e. these two roles alone are not necessarily much better than a single cop. Nobody else feel that way?
    Last edited by Apoc; April 12th, 2018 at 10:13 AM.

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    Klopp Killa Panther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#18)
    So, about the part where i was wasting time pointing out issues in an "outdated setup"...but the new setup didnt address any of them


    Anyone have any thoughts?

    The KP problem (that made the vengefuls weird) still exists with the JOAT (and to a lesser extent the Even Vig) because assuming there will be a save/RB seems like a bad assumption.
    Most likely a single player will be take a shot, remove a mislynch...and deny other players a chance to play (in a format that is supposed to be about showcasing, right?)

    Here are the numbers for that:



    Vanilla 17er
    5 mislynches = loss. 5 villagr KP.

    JOAT KILL

    13v4
    MisLynch
    Kill
    Vig

    10/4
    ML x3
    K x3

    4/4 parity. 4 mislynches = loss. Still only 5 village KP.


    Even Vig who shoots once is the same.



    Even Vig who shoots twice
    - still only 4 mislynches... But the game ends 3v4 or continues at 4v3 of Vig hits a wolf.

    6 village KP. 8 players doe before N4, the vig needs to not be one.

    (I really liked the prev iteration that gave town a backup vig)
    For the KP numbers:

    If we do go ahead and assume a town block/save. Then the vig is not removing a mislynch...and is all upside.

    But you end up in a "win more"/snowball situation, you are getting the block (a save AND a pseudo-redcheck) Or you are getting the person wolves most wanted dead...still alive. That alone should be your reward for the save, but now you are also getting this extra reward of a free vig shot.

    So its like, in the situation where you get a block/save you have double upside. And in the situation where you dont get one is double downside.

    When the vig shot is good...you were already winning. When the vig shot is bad, you were already losing (cause all your PRs have been missing).

    I hope that makes sense.
    I am ready for ppl to tell me that a role cop is worth an additional town PR.

    I direct you to every wolfchat ever, where wolves were given a role cop and no roleblocker.


    Its usually salty. Wolves dont care about role cops
    I also thought, upon seeing this new proposal

    "hey, Apoc's kp concerns regarding the ineffectual even night vig role has gone unnoticed"

    I guess the 2d: JOAT + even night vig would seemingly address the kp thing by actually affecting the number of mislynches, one way or another

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    Klopp Killa Panther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#19)
    For 1C, 1D & 1E

    I think i'd still rather have a single alignment cop with a n0?
    i.e. these two roles alone are not necessarily much better than a single cop. Nobody else feel that way?
    also, I don't think people are really concerned about "better" or not. think people just want there to be no cops homie

    which I can get behind

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    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    @Apoc

    I have a fever atm, but I hope my thoughts will make sense.

    We have 3 options:

    1) Do no vig powers.
    2) Do limited vig powers.
    3) Do full vig powers.

    The third option is off the table, because it places way too much of the game's outcome in one player's hands. A full vig who decides to troll or is just bad can effectively make the rest of the town's efforts pointless. More than that, there's a problematic element to letting one person have such a great power to potentially destroy other players' chances at advancing - or at least reducing their chances of showing their worth. As in, I fear that a vig might decide to shoot people that they fear can maybe outshine them. This problem still exists with a limited vig, but it's obviously less of an effect - and with them having limited shots, they need to really think about using their kill optimally if they want to make a positive impact on voters and/or the jury.

    The first option is... Boring and it prolongs the game, causing more boredom for everyone involved.

    So we are left with the second option. It's a compromise. And then in addition to using limited vig powers, we make sure that every single setup that the Even Night Vigilante is in there is also at least one other role that can actually make sure the town gains one town-chosen kill in the game even if the Even Vig were only to shoot once before dying. Will this happen every time? No. But the Even Night Vigilante also won't die before Night 4 every time either. I guess I'd be interested to see someone actually calculate the AVERAGE CHANCE of one town-chosen kill being gained from the setups with an Even Vig. If it's really low, then I guess this is worth revisiting. But remember that the Even Vig's value doesn't only lie in its potential to gain the town a town-chosen kill - its also value is also as a potential cleared townie. Overall I don't really find the bad variance scenarios that concerning for the Even Vig setups (even if they only fire once, it doesn't mean the town end up having less town-chosen kills, it's just that one of them was decided by one person only). The bad variance scenarios for a n0 cop seem much worse.

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    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    With regards to Roleblocker versus Role Cop. We discussed it in general on Discord, and everyone agreed that Role Cop > Roleblocker. At least in these setups.

    And I feel that way strongly myself as well. If anyone would seriously prefer to have a Roleblocker as mafia, then I don't know what to say :P

    Edit: Mulling it over, I don't feel that strongly about it anymore. In a 13'er I'd prefer roleblocker, for sure, but I think role cop > roleblocker by a bit when you get to 17+.

    Besides, by not using roleblocker, we avoid setups having multiple blocking roles, which is a side benefit imo.
    Last edited by Thingyman; April 12th, 2018 at 02:07 PM.

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    GOAT Tier Jaleb's Avatar
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    Why does D2 feel highly town sided with JoaT+Vig?
    Quote Originally Posted by Empoof (#4961)
    it was jaleb

    @Jaleb is a god
    ??Frog ??Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    ok dudes
    you can discuss the event here if you want

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:05 AM
    Done, will take my prize now
    I do have a 1900 rating in solving tactics :smiley:

    AndrewGreve(night vig/39%ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    hey
    i dont know chess tactics
    should I try?

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    1. Bf6 2. Qh7 3. Rf7 4. Nh6 5. Re5 6. ... Qh3 7. Qd8 8. h7 9. ... Ne5+; fxe5 h5 10. ... Bg1; Kg3 Qf2; Kh3 Qh2 i you want the answer, not that it matters
    if*

    ??Frog ??Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    Jaleb, you're lowkey Magnus

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    Mafia Backup Amrock sheepsaysmeep's Avatar Game Manager
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    i think youre overestimating the powers of 1 shot of like three decent powers and a really gated vig in 17 player
    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#67)
    Stop calling things natural. This world isnt natural. You can get butt implants and $#@!

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    GOAT Tier Jaleb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheepsaysmeep (#25)
    i think youre overestimating the powers of 1 shot of like three decent powers and a really gated vig in 17 player
    It's 2 shots by n2 which gives town 1 more mislynch which is highly valuable imo.

    Most other setups relies on vigi to survive until n4 to make this actually important (which I doubt will happen the majority of games).

    Town being able to kill an extra town is a big deal in solving a lot of games.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empoof (#4961)
    it was jaleb

    @Jaleb is a god
    ??Frog ??Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    ok dudes
    you can discuss the event here if you want

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:05 AM
    Done, will take my prize now
    I do have a 1900 rating in solving tactics :smiley:

    AndrewGreve(night vig/39%ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    hey
    i dont know chess tactics
    should I try?

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    1. Bf6 2. Qh7 3. Rf7 4. Nh6 5. Re5 6. ... Qh3 7. Qd8 8. h7 9. ... Ne5+; fxe5 h5 10. ... Bg1; Kg3 Qf2; Kh3 Qh2 i you want the answer, not that it matters
    if*

    ??Frog ??Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    Jaleb, you're lowkey Magnus

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    Season 5 Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Paul (#16)
    With 17 player pods, how is the process of advancement going to be handled?
    Excellent question, and one that I haven't seen answered yet so I'll take my shot at it. Now, this hasn't been finalized yet due to a number of factors, so a lot of what I'm saying is hearsay and guesswork and thus should not be taken as one hundred percent fact or utterly and completely accurate. Some of the factors in question that I referred to earlier are as follows: First, the exact composition of the players/invited sites taking part has not been fully determined. Thingy is saying something along the lines of 8 to 9 total games, meaning, assuming the 17 figure stays consistent, there will be 136 to 153 players. However, we know how much Thingy likes to upscale with these things, so I wouldn't entirely rule out a 10th qualifying game happening at some point down the line, bringing the total number of players up to 170, which would break the record of 165 set in last year's Championships. None of this factors in subs, of course, but it wouldn't matter anyway since they're not added, merely replacing into an already-present slot. Anyway. Once the final count is set (and potentially reset), the qualifying games will be played and they'll be off, just like in past years. Once the games are concluded, also just like in past years, there will be vote taken amongst the players of the individual game they will in, the criteria being "best overall player" or something similar based on these players' observations of the others' skill while present in said game. At this point it is uncertain of the exact ranked voting scale. Last year, for example, the players submitted a vote of their top 3, in which the ranked voting went 4-3-2, first place getting 4, second place getting 3, and so on. However, that was when there was 15 players to a game, so it might not translate over perfectly. I believe in Season 3 Thingy made the voting for a top 4 where the points distribution might have been 5-4-3-1 or 5-4-3-2, but I suppose it doesn't matter exactly, the most important thing here is that there's going to be a player vote. From here, there's a number of possibilities that I suspect could happen in terms of how the vote goes down. The first possibility is what happened two years ago, when the games were also all 17ers: the top two players would each receive an automatic berth to the finale game. This would fit nicely with the overall kind of "improvement on Matrix12/s3" throwback theme we have going on in general with this season's setup so far. However, I think the more likely scenario is that just the top-voted player receives the automatic berth to the finale, and that second place is automatically sent into the wild cards. If you need a refresher on what the wild card precisely means, don't worry, that's coming along later. The obvious issue with both of these, and something that may need to be addressed, is what happens if there's a tie - either a 2-way tie in my latter scenario or a 3-way tie for first in my former scenario. In both of these cases there are more players receiving a share of first place than there are automatic spots to the finale available, and there are a number of options in place that I can think of that would be able to cut through this Gordion Knot of trouble. The first is that the players could revote, either in the form of ranked voting or, more likely, just a one-name runoff. This is an ideal solution but it might take time to wrangle all of the players to re-vote again. Second, Thingy could just have the initial tiebreaker be which player got more first-place votes, or a higher proportion of showing up on the ballot, depending on his mood and whim. This would eliminate the logistical issues of a revote nicely, and also solves the issue of a multi-leveled tiebreaker because the second tiebreaker in this format could be highest share of second-place votes, and so on. A third potential tiebreaker possibility is that the jury could simply name a winner, as they're already closely following in the game and in "player evaluation mode", so to speak, if they're doing their jobs properly. Lots of possibilities here in any case, so we should be fairly well-covered in any happenstance. Anyway, this process will repeat itself through all eight or nine or ten or however many qualifying games there are until all are included, hopefully without too much burnout on everyone's part but who knows about that point. From there, whatever spots aren't filled in both the finale and the wildcard(s) need to be filled. This is where the jury steps in. The jury, if you're not aware, consists of the finalists from the immediately prior season of Champs who have accepted Thingy's invitation. So the big names you all know and love and remember from S4 like Dels, dLGN, Yeti, Formal Shorts, etc. all have the chance to be reading and following along, thus continuing the hallowed tradition of Champs and passing the torch from one season to the next. My guess is that there will be two wildcard games in total, consisting of the standard 17 players per game, meaning that there are 34 wildcard spots that need to be filled. Perhaps the jury will need to select all 34 spots. Perhaps one of my earlier scenarios regarding player advancement will be correct and that some of the wildcard spots will be automatically filled by the player vote, meaning the jury will only have to select something along the lines of 25 or so spots. My assumption is that their criteria to fill these 25 spots will be exactly what their criteria was in past seasons, as well as the criteria that Thingy directs all of the players partaking in the direct finale vote to follow: best all-around (or perhaps "overall" but the difference is essentially negligible) player, from what they've seen in Champs. It will be slightly harder to make this calculation in a season with semi-variable setups as opposed to last year when all games were unified mountainous, but I have faith in the jury to be able to complete this task. And then the usual will happen: They will provide the names, plus a reasonable amount of subs in the event that any of the top 25 or whatever the number is can't play, to Thingy, Thingy will announce as much, he will slow roll the wildcard reveal as usual, and the wildcard games will be set. The wildcard games will then play out as usual under the same conditions as all of the season's qualifiers, and once the dust is settled there will be further player votes. Now, the wildcard players will be sending a lot of their own to the finale, moreso than in past years (especially compared to s3, two years ago in 2016 when they only sent one person, Newcomb), so the player vote might have to be expanded. But numbers aside, the wildcard people *will* send people to the finale to make up the last spots. The final question stems from exact distribution of spots from the two wildcard games, whether it will be evenly distributed or based on weighed votes. It's something to consider and off the top of my head I don't remember how it was the case last year, but in any case it's not exactly a high priority since invites haven't even gone out yet and we're now talking about one of the final stages of Champs, which is months away. So it's a problem (if there even is one) for another day. The finale is now set. There is still one game left to play. So Thingy will set the schedule, everyone will confirm, and they will play it, again under the same conditions as they did the wildcards and qualifiers (though phase timing etc throughout the games will vary based on collective player preference, forgot to mention that earlier but it seemed worthy of noting in any case). Once the finale has been concluded, there will be one final player vote, under the same conditions as all the others but with one important exception: the first place player will be named 2018 Mafia Champion and get the gold trophy. I think that covers everything; obviously there's still some intricacies to be ironed out but this should be a satisfactory basic overview.
    Lenny - Today at 10:08 AM
    Atpg sometimes the paragraphs you write are pretty good


    Looking to waste an afternoon? Vamos Cartagena - Football Manager 2018 AAR (complete!)
    The sequel to the above: An American Manager in America (in progress)

  28. ISO #28
    FUNNIER6 GOAT Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#27)
    Excellent question, and one that I haven't seen answered yet so I'll take my shot at it. Now, this hasn't been finalized yet due to a number of factors, so a lot of what I'm saying is hearsay and guesswork and thus should not be taken as one hundred percent fact or utterly and completely accurate. Some of the factors in question that I referred to earlier are as follows: First, the exact composition of the players/invited sites taking part has not been fully determined. Thingy is saying something along the lines of 8 to 9 total games, meaning, assuming the 17 figure stays consistent, there will be 136 to 153 players. However, we know how much Thingy likes to upscale with these things, so I wouldn't entirely rule out a 10th qualifying game happening at some point down the line, bringing the total number of players up to 170, which would break the record of 165 set in last year's Championships. None of this factors in subs, of course, but it wouldn't matter anyway since they're not added, merely replacing into an already-present slot. Anyway. Once the final count is set (and potentially reset), the qualifying games will be played and they'll be off, just like in past years. Once the games are concluded, also just like in past years, there will be vote taken amongst the players of the individual game they will in, the criteria being "best overall player" or something similar based on these players' observations of the others' skill while present in said game. At this point it is uncertain of the exact ranked voting scale. Last year, for example, the players submitted a vote of their top 3, in which the ranked voting went 4-3-2, first place getting 4, second place getting 3, and so on. However, that was when there was 15 players to a game, so it might not translate over perfectly. I believe in Season 3 Thingy made the voting for a top 4 where the points distribution might have been 5-4-3-1 or 5-4-3-2, but I suppose it doesn't matter exactly, the most important thing here is that there's going to be a player vote. From here, there's a number of possibilities that I suspect could happen in terms of how the vote goes down. The first possibility is what happened two years ago, when the games were also all 17ers: the top two players would each receive an automatic berth to the finale game. This would fit nicely with the overall kind of "improvement on Matrix12/s3" throwback theme we have going on in general with this season's setup so far. However, I think the more likely scenario is that just the top-voted player receives the automatic berth to the finale, and that second place is automatically sent into the wild cards. If you need a refresher on what the wild card precisely means, don't worry, that's coming along later. The obvious issue with both of these, and something that may need to be addressed, is what happens if there's a tie - either a 2-way tie in my latter scenario or a 3-way tie for first in my former scenario. In both of these cases there are more players receiving a share of first place than there are automatic spots to the finale available, and there are a number of options in place that I can think of that would be able to cut through this Gordion Knot of trouble. The first is that the players could revote, either in the form of ranked voting or, more likely, just a one-name runoff. This is an ideal solution but it might take time to wrangle all of the players to re-vote again. Second, Thingy could just have the initial tiebreaker be which player got more first-place votes, or a higher proportion of showing up on the ballot, depending on his mood and whim. This would eliminate the logistical issues of a revote nicely, and also solves the issue of a multi-leveled tiebreaker because the second tiebreaker in this format could be highest share of second-place votes, and so on. A third potential tiebreaker possibility is that the jury could simply name a winner, as they're already closely following in the game and in "player evaluation mode", so to speak, if they're doing their jobs properly. Lots of possibilities here in any case, so we should be fairly well-covered in any happenstance. Anyway, this process will repeat itself through all eight or nine or ten or however many qualifying games there are until all are included, hopefully without too much burnout on everyone's part but who knows about that point. From there, whatever spots aren't filled in both the finale and the wildcard(s) need to be filled. This is where the jury steps in. The jury, if you're not aware, consists of the finalists from the immediately prior season of Champs who have accepted Thingy's invitation. So the big names you all know and love and remember from S4 like Dels, dLGN, Yeti, Formal Shorts, etc. all have the chance to be reading and following along, thus continuing the hallowed tradition of Champs and passing the torch from one season to the next. My guess is that there will be two wildcard games in total, consisting of the standard 17 players per game, meaning that there are 34 wildcard spots that need to be filled. Perhaps the jury will need to select all 34 spots. Perhaps one of my earlier scenarios regarding player advancement will be correct and that some of the wildcard spots will be automatically filled by the player vote, meaning the jury will only have to select something along the lines of 25 or so spots. My assumption is that their criteria to fill these 25 spots will be exactly what their criteria was in past seasons, as well as the criteria that Thingy directs all of the players partaking in the direct finale vote to follow: best all-around (or perhaps "overall" but the difference is essentially negligible) player, from what they've seen in Champs. It will be slightly harder to make this calculation in a season with semi-variable setups as opposed to last year when all games were unified mountainous, but I have faith in the jury to be able to complete this task. And then the usual will happen: They will provide the names, plus a reasonable amount of subs in the event that any of the top 25 or whatever the number is can't play, to Thingy, Thingy will announce as much, he will slow roll the wildcard reveal as usual, and the wildcard games will be set. The wildcard games will then play out as usual under the same conditions as all of the season's qualifiers, and once the dust is settled there will be further player votes. Now, the wildcard players will be sending a lot of their own to the finale, moreso than in past years (especially compared to s3, two years ago in 2016 when they only sent one person, Newcomb), so the player vote might have to be expanded. But numbers aside, the wildcard people *will* send people to the finale to make up the last spots. The final question stems from exact distribution of spots from the two wildcard games, whether it will be evenly distributed or based on weighed votes. It's something to consider and off the top of my head I don't remember how it was the case last year, but in any case it's not exactly a high priority since invites haven't even gone out yet and we're now talking about one of the final stages of Champs, which is months away. So it's a problem (if there even is one) for another day. The finale is now set. There is still one game left to play. So Thingy will set the schedule, everyone will confirm, and they will play it, again under the same conditions as they did the wildcards and qualifiers (though phase timing etc throughout the games will vary based on collective player preference, forgot to mention that earlier but it seemed worthy of noting in any case). Once the finale has been concluded, there will be one final player vote, under the same conditions as all the others but with one important exception: the first place player will be named 2018 Mafia Champion and get the gold trophy. I think that covers everything; obviously there's still some intricacies to be ironed out but this should be a satisfactory basic overview.

  29. ISO #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Paul (#16)
    I don't think mafia having a role cop really justifies any of Row A, B, or D. As town would glady give mafia a role cop to have that town power, and as mafia would not want to have a role cop in exchange for giving town that much power. The setups seems pretty town sided in general IMO.

    With 17 player pods, how is the process of advancement going to be handled?
    Regarding advancement, we had a meeting and concluded the fairest way to choose advancement was to remove player votes and have the jury choose all advancers.

    The criteria for advancement will remain completely secret, but I can reveal that the theme is "fun and friendship".

  30. ISO #30
    GOAT Tier Jaleb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#28)
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#27)
    Excellent question, and one that I haven't seen answered yet so I'll take my shot at it. Now, this hasn't been finalized yet due to a number of factors, so a lot of what I'm saying is hearsay and guesswork and thus should not be taken as one hundred percent fact or utterly and completely accurate. Some of the factors in question that I referred to earlier are as follows: First, the exact composition of the players/invited sites taking part has not been fully determined. Thingy is saying something along the lines of 8 to 9 total games, meaning, assuming the 17 figure stays consistent, there will be 136 to 153 players. However, we know how much Thingy likes to upscale with these things, so I wouldn't entirely rule out a 10th qualifying game happening at some point down the line, bringing the total number of players up to 170, which would break the record of 165 set in last year's Championships. None of this factors in subs, of course, but it wouldn't matter anyway since they're not added, merely replacing into an already-present slot. Anyway. Once the final count is set (and potentially reset), the qualifying games will be played and they'll be off, just like in past years. Once the games are concluded, also just like in past years, there will be vote taken amongst the players of the individual game they will in, the criteria being "best overall player" or something similar based on these players' observations of the others' skill while present in said game. At this point it is uncertain of the exact ranked voting scale. Last year, for example, the players submitted a vote of their top 3, in which the ranked voting went 4-3-2, first place getting 4, second place getting 3, and so on. However, that was when there was 15 players to a game, so it might not translate over perfectly. I believe in Season 3 Thingy made the voting for a top 4 where the points distribution might have been 5-4-3-1 or 5-4-3-2, but I suppose it doesn't matter exactly, the most important thing here is that there's going to be a player vote. From here, there's a number of possibilities that I suspect could happen in terms of how the vote goes down. The first possibility is what happened two years ago, when the games were also all 17ers: the top two players would each receive an automatic berth to the finale game. This would fit nicely with the overall kind of "improvement on Matrix12/s3" throwback theme we have going on in general with this season's setup so far. However, I think the more likely scenario is that just the top-voted player receives the automatic berth to the finale, and that second place is automatically sent into the wild cards. If you need a refresher on what the wild card precisely means, don't worry, that's coming along later. The obvious issue with both of these, and something that may need to be addressed, is what happens if there's a tie - either a 2-way tie in my latter scenario or a 3-way tie for first in my former scenario. In both of these cases there are more players receiving a share of first place than there are automatic spots to the finale available, and there are a number of options in place that I can think of that would be able to cut through this Gordion Knot of trouble. The first is that the players could revote, either in the form of ranked voting or, more likely, just a one-name runoff. This is an ideal solution but it might take time to wrangle all of the players to re-vote again. Second, Thingy could just have the initial tiebreaker be which player got more first-place votes, or a higher proportion of showing up on the ballot, depending on his mood and whim. This would eliminate the logistical issues of a revote nicely, and also solves the issue of a multi-leveled tiebreaker because the second tiebreaker in this format could be highest share of second-place votes, and so on. A third potential tiebreaker possibility is that the jury could simply name a winner, as they're already closely following in the game and in "player evaluation mode", so to speak, if they're doing their jobs properly. Lots of possibilities here in any case, so we should be fairly well-covered in any happenstance. Anyway, this process will repeat itself through all eight or nine or ten or however many qualifying games there are until all are included, hopefully without too much burnout on everyone's part but who knows about that point. From there, whatever spots aren't filled in both the finale and the wildcard(s) need to be filled. This is where the jury steps in. The jury, if you're not aware, consists of the finalists from the immediately prior season of Champs who have accepted Thingy's invitation. So the big names you all know and love and remember from S4 like Dels, dLGN, Yeti, Formal Shorts, etc. all have the chance to be reading and following along, thus continuing the hallowed tradition of Champs and passing the torch from one season to the next. My guess is that there will be two wildcard games in total, consisting of the standard 17 players per game, meaning that there are 34 wildcard spots that need to be filled. Perhaps the jury will need to select all 34 spots. Perhaps one of my earlier scenarios regarding player advancement will be correct and that some of the wildcard spots will be automatically filled by the player vote, meaning the jury will only have to select something along the lines of 25 or so spots. My assumption is that their criteria to fill these 25 spots will be exactly what their criteria was in past seasons, as well as the criteria that Thingy directs all of the players partaking in the direct finale vote to follow: best all-around (or perhaps "overall" but the difference is essentially negligible) player, from what they've seen in Champs. It will be slightly harder to make this calculation in a season with semi-variable setups as opposed to last year when all games were unified mountainous, but I have faith in the jury to be able to complete this task. And then the usual will happen: They will provide the names, plus a reasonable amount of subs in the event that any of the top 25 or whatever the number is can't play, to Thingy, Thingy will announce as much, he will slow roll the wildcard reveal as usual, and the wildcard games will be set. The wildcard games will then play out as usual under the same conditions as all of the season's qualifiers, and once the dust is settled there will be further player votes. Now, the wildcard players will be sending a lot of their own to the finale, moreso than in past years (especially compared to s3, two years ago in 2016 when they only sent one person, Newcomb), so the player vote might have to be expanded. But numbers aside, the wildcard people *will* send people to the finale to make up the last spots. The final question stems from exact distribution of spots from the two wildcard games, whether it will be evenly distributed or based on weighed votes. It's something to consider and off the top of my head I don't remember how it was the case last year, but in any case it's not exactly a high priority since invites haven't even gone out yet and we're now talking about one of the final stages of Champs, which is months away. So it's a problem (if there even is one) for another day. The finale is now set. There is still one game left to play. So Thingy will set the schedule, everyone will confirm, and they will play it, again under the same conditions as they did the wildcards and qualifiers (though phase timing etc throughout the games will vary based on collective player preference, forgot to mention that earlier but it seemed worthy of noting in any case). Once the finale has been concluded, there will be one final player vote, under the same conditions as all the others but with one important exception: the first place player will be named 2018 Mafia Champion and get the gold trophy. I think that covers everything; obviously there's still some intricacies to be ironed out but this should be a satisfactory basic overview.
    tl;dr this for me pls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empoof (#4961)
    it was jaleb

    @Jaleb is a god
    ??Frog ??Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    ok dudes
    you can discuss the event here if you want

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:05 AM
    Done, will take my prize now
    I do have a 1900 rating in solving tactics :smiley:

    AndrewGreve(night vig/39%ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    hey
    i dont know chess tactics
    should I try?

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    1. Bf6 2. Qh7 3. Rf7 4. Nh6 5. Re5 6. ... Qh3 7. Qd8 8. h7 9. ... Ne5+; fxe5 h5 10. ... Bg1; Kg3 Qf2; Kh3 Qh2 i you want the answer, not that it matters
    if*

    ??Frog ??Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    Jaleb, you're lowkey Magnus

  31. ISO #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#27)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Paul (#16)
    With 17 player pods, how is the process of advancement going to be handled?
    Excellent question, and one that I haven't seen answered yet so I'll take my shot at it. Now, this hasn't been finalized yet due to a number of factors, so a lot of what I'm saying is hearsay and guesswork and thus should not be taken as one hundred percent fact or utterly and completely accurate. Some of the factors in question that I referred to earlier are as follows: First, the exact composition of the players/invited sites taking part has not been fully determined. Thingy is saying something along the lines of 8 to 9 total games, meaning, assuming the 17 figure stays consistent, there will be 136 to 153 players. However, we know how much Thingy likes to upscale with these things, so I wouldn't entirely rule out a 10th qualifying game happening at some point down the line, bringing the total number of players up to 170, which would break the record of 165 set in last year's Championships. None of this factors in subs, of course, but it wouldn't matter anyway since they're not added, merely replacing into an already-present slot. Anyway. Once the final count is set (and potentially reset), the qualifying games will be played and they'll be off, just like in past years. Once the games are concluded, also just like in past years, there will be vote taken amongst the players of the individual game they will in, the criteria being "best overall player" or something similar based on these players' observations of the others' skill while present in said game. At this point it is uncertain of the exact ranked voting scale. Last year, for example, the players submitted a vote of their top 3, in which the ranked voting went 4-3-2, first place getting 4, second place getting 3, and so on. However, that was when there was 15 players to a game, so it might not translate over perfectly. I believe in Season 3 Thingy made the voting for a top 4 where the points distribution might have been 5-4-3-1 or 5-4-3-2, but I suppose it doesn't matter exactly, the most important thing here is that there's going to be a player vote. From here, there's a number of possibilities that I suspect could happen in terms of how the vote goes down. The first possibility is what happened two years ago, when the games were also all 17ers: the top two players would each receive an automatic berth to the finale game. This would fit nicely with the overall kind of "improvement on Matrix12/s3" throwback theme we have going on in general with this season's setup so far. However, I think the more likely scenario is that just the top-voted player receives the automatic berth to the finale, and that second place is automatically sent into the wild cards. If you need a refresher on what the wild card precisely means, don't worry, that's coming along later. The obvious issue with both of these, and something that may need to be addressed, is what happens if there's a tie - either a 2-way tie in my latter scenario or a 3-way tie for first in my former scenario. In both of these cases there are more players receiving a share of first place than there are automatic spots to the finale available, and there are a number of options in place that I can think of that would be able to cut through this Gordion Knot of trouble. The first is that the players could revote, either in the form of ranked voting or, more likely, just a one-name runoff. This is an ideal solution but it might take time to wrangle all of the players to re-vote again. Second, Thingy could just have the initial tiebreaker be which player got more first-place votes, or a higher proportion of showing up on the ballot, depending on his mood and whim. This would eliminate the logistical issues of a revote nicely, and also solves the issue of a multi-leveled tiebreaker because the second tiebreaker in this format could be highest share of second-place votes, and so on. A third potential tiebreaker possibility is that the jury could simply name a winner, as they're already closely following in the game and in "player evaluation mode", so to speak, if they're doing their jobs properly. Lots of possibilities here in any case, so we should be fairly well-covered in any happenstance. Anyway, this process will repeat itself through all eight or nine or ten or however many qualifying games there are until all are included, hopefully without too much burnout on everyone's part but who knows about that point. From there, whatever spots aren't filled in both the finale and the wildcard(s) need to be filled. This is where the jury steps in. The jury, if you're not aware, consists of the finalists from the immediately prior season of Champs who have accepted Thingy's invitation. So the big names you all know and love and remember from S4 like Dels, dLGN, Yeti, Formal Shorts, etc. all have the chance to be reading and following along, thus continuing the hallowed tradition of Champs and passing the torch from one season to the next. My guess is that there will be two wildcard games in total, consisting of the standard 17 players per game, meaning that there are 34 wildcard spots that need to be filled. Perhaps the jury will need to select all 34 spots. Perhaps one of my earlier scenarios regarding player advancement will be correct and that some of the wildcard spots will be automatically filled by the player vote, meaning the jury will only have to select something along the lines of 25 or so spots. My assumption is that their criteria to fill these 25 spots will be exactly what their criteria was in past seasons, as well as the criteria that Thingy directs all of the players partaking in the direct finale vote to follow: best all-around (or perhaps "overall" but the difference is essentially negligible) player, from what they've seen in Champs. It will be slightly harder to make this calculation in a season with semi-variable setups as opposed to last year when all games were unified mountainous, but I have faith in the jury to be able to complete this task. And then the usual will happen: They will provide the names, plus a reasonable amount of subs in the event that any of the top 25 or whatever the number is can't play, to Thingy, Thingy will announce as much, he will slow roll the wildcard reveal as usual, and the wildcard games will be set. The wildcard games will then play out as usual under the same conditions as all of the season's qualifiers, and once the dust is settled there will be further player votes. Now, the wildcard players will be sending a lot of their own to the finale, moreso than in past years (especially compared to s3, two years ago in 2016 when they only sent one person, Newcomb), so the player vote might have to be expanded. But numbers aside, the wildcard people *will* send people to the finale to make up the last spots. The final question stems from exact distribution of spots from the two wildcard games, whether it will be evenly distributed or based on weighed votes. It's something to consider and off the top of my head I don't remember how it was the case last year, but in any case it's not exactly a high priority since invites haven't even gone out yet and we're now talking about one of the final stages of Champs, which is months away. So it's a problem (if there even is one) for another day. The finale is now set. There is still one game left to play. So Thingy will set the schedule, everyone will confirm, and they will play it, again under the same conditions as they did the wildcards and qualifiers (though phase timing etc throughout the games will vary based on collective player preference, forgot to mention that earlier but it seemed worthy of noting in any case). Once the finale has been concluded, there will be one final player vote, under the same conditions as all the others but with one important exception: the first place player will be named 2018 Mafia Champion and get the gold trophy. I think that covers everything; obviously there's still some intricacies to be ironed out but this should be a satisfactory basic overview.
    Afgtyourbgrad! My eyes!
    Retired

  32. ISO #32
    Special Agent tbh Boquise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Formal Shorts (#29)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Paul (#16)
    I don't think mafia having a role cop really justifies any of Row A, B, or D. As town would glady give mafia a role cop to have that town power, and as mafia would not want to have a role cop in exchange for giving town that much power. The setups seems pretty town sided in general IMO.

    With 17 player pods, how is the process of advancement going to be handled?
    Regarding advancement, we had a meeting and concluded the fairest way to choose advancement was to remove player votes and have the jury choose all advancers.

    The criteria for advancement will remain completely secret, but I can reveal that the theme is "fun and friendship".
    giggity

  33. ISO #33
    Special Agent tbh Boquise's Avatar
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    Gonna hang this on my wall tbh

    Last edited by Boquise; April 13th, 2018 at 06:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#17)
    One step closer to 1x5

    Progress
    What about 3X3?
    Retired

  35. ISO #35
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    1. GH, they are called paragraphs

    2. A back-up vig solves a lot of problems, and is probably as useful as a voyeur

    3. I still think the two PR setups are pretty wolfsided?



  36. ISO #36
    Wants It More Jon Paul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#27)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Paul (#16)
    With 17 player pods, how is the process of advancement going to be handled?
    Excellent question, and one that I haven't seen answered yet so I'll take my shot at it. Now, this hasn't been finalized yet due to a number of factors, so a lot of what I'm saying is hearsay and guesswork and thus should not be taken as one hundred percent fact or utterly and completely accurate. Some of the factors in question that I referred to earlier are as follows: First, the exact composition of the players/invited sites taking part has not been fully determined. Thingy is saying something along the lines of 8 to 9 total games, meaning, assuming the 17 figure stays consistent, there will be 136 to 153 players. However, we know how much Thingy likes to upscale with these things, so I wouldn't entirely rule out a 10th qualifying game happening at some point down the line, bringing the total number of players up to 170, which would break the record of 165 set in last year's Championships. None of this factors in subs, of course, but it wouldn't matter anyway since they're not added, merely replacing into an already-present slot. Anyway. Once the final count is set (and potentially reset), the qualifying games will be played and they'll be off, just like in past years. Once the games are concluded, also just like in past years, there will be vote taken amongst the players of the individual game they will in, the criteria being "best overall player" or something similar based on these players' observations of the others' skill while present in said game. At this point it is uncertain of the exact ranked voting scale. Last year, for example, the players submitted a vote of their top 3, in which the ranked voting went 4-3-2, first place getting 4, second place getting 3, and so on. However, that was when there was 15 players to a game, so it might not translate over perfectly. I believe in Season 3 Thingy made the voting for a top 4 where the points distribution might have been 5-4-3-1 or 5-4-3-2, but I suppose it doesn't matter exactly, the most important thing here is that there's going to be a player vote. From here, there's a number of possibilities that I suspect could happen in terms of how the vote goes down. The first possibility is what happened two years ago, when the games were also all 17ers: the top two players would each receive an automatic berth to the finale game. This would fit nicely with the overall kind of "improvement on Matrix12/s3" throwback theme we have going on in general with this season's setup so far. However, I think the more likely scenario is that just the top-voted player receives the automatic berth to the finale, and that second place is automatically sent into the wild cards. If you need a refresher on what the wild card precisely means, don't worry, that's coming along later. The obvious issue with both of these, and something that may need to be addressed, is what happens if there's a tie - either a 2-way tie in my latter scenario or a 3-way tie for first in my former scenario. In both of these cases there are more players receiving a share of first place than there are automatic spots to the finale available, and there are a number of options in place that I can think of that would be able to cut through this Gordion Knot of trouble. The first is that the players could revote, either in the form of ranked voting or, more likely, just a one-name runoff. This is an ideal solution but it might take time to wrangle all of the players to re-vote again. Second, Thingy could just have the initial tiebreaker be which player got more first-place votes, or a higher proportion of showing up on the ballot, depending on his mood and whim. This would eliminate the logistical issues of a revote nicely, and also solves the issue of a multi-leveled tiebreaker because the second tiebreaker in this format could be highest share of second-place votes, and so on. A third potential tiebreaker possibility is that the jury could simply name a winner, as they're already closely following in the game and in "player evaluation mode", so to speak, if they're doing their jobs properly. Lots of possibilities here in any case, so we should be fairly well-covered in any happenstance. Anyway, this process will repeat itself through all eight or nine or ten or however many qualifying games there are until all are included, hopefully without too much burnout on everyone's part but who knows about that point. From there, whatever spots aren't filled in both the finale and the wildcard(s) need to be filled. This is where the jury steps in. The jury, if you're not aware, consists of the finalists from the immediately prior season of Champs who have accepted Thingy's invitation. So the big names you all know and love and remember from S4 like Dels, dLGN, Yeti, Formal Shorts, etc. all have the chance to be reading and following along, thus continuing the hallowed tradition of Champs and passing the torch from one season to the next. My guess is that there will be two wildcard games in total, consisting of the standard 17 players per game, meaning that there are 34 wildcard spots that need to be filled. Perhaps the jury will need to select all 34 spots. Perhaps one of my earlier scenarios regarding player advancement will be correct and that some of the wildcard spots will be automatically filled by the player vote, meaning the jury will only have to select something along the lines of 25 or so spots. My assumption is that their criteria to fill these 25 spots will be exactly what their criteria was in past seasons, as well as the criteria that Thingy directs all of the players partaking in the direct finale vote to follow: best all-around (or perhaps "overall" but the difference is essentially negligible) player, from what they've seen in Champs. It will be slightly harder to make this calculation in a season with semi-variable setups as opposed to last year when all games were unified mountainous, but I have faith in the jury to be able to complete this task. And then the usual will happen: They will provide the names, plus a reasonable amount of subs in the event that any of the top 25 or whatever the number is can't play, to Thingy, Thingy will announce as much, he will slow roll the wildcard reveal as usual, and the wildcard games will be set. The wildcard games will then play out as usual under the same conditions as all of the season's qualifiers, and once the dust is settled there will be further player votes. Now, the wildcard players will be sending a lot of their own to the finale, moreso than in past years (especially compared to s3, two years ago in 2016 when they only sent one person, Newcomb), so the player vote might have to be expanded. But numbers aside, the wildcard people *will* send people to the finale to make up the last spots. The final question stems from exact distribution of spots from the two wildcard games, whether it will be evenly distributed or based on weighed votes. It's something to consider and off the top of my head I don't remember how it was the case last year, but in any case it's not exactly a high priority since invites haven't even gone out yet and we're now talking about one of the final stages of Champs, which is months away. So it's a problem (if there even is one) for another day. The finale is now set. There is still one game left to play. So Thingy will set the schedule, everyone will confirm, and they will play it, again under the same conditions as they did the wildcards and qualifiers (though phase timing etc throughout the games will vary based on collective player preference, forgot to mention that earlier but it seemed worthy of noting in any case). Once the finale has been concluded, there will be one final player vote, under the same conditions as all the others but with one important exception: the first place player will be named 2018 Mafia Champion and get the gold trophy. I think that covers everything; obviously there's still some intricacies to be ironed out but this should be a satisfactory basic overview.
    @GeneralHankerchief

    I find your response to be more than a little Mean to a fair question. There is Discussion about what the format to be, but not any discussion about the process of an event that you want over a 130 people to participate in? I think the lack of talking about the process of an event that you want so many people to put so many hours into is more than alarming.

    Also You only had about 5% of your response talking about the Jury selection of the competition, which Impacts IMO about 80% of the overall competition. I think some Clarity or otherwise Discussion on what that body/group of people are going to do to impact an event with over 130 people in it is more than fair, its almost completely absurd to not have open discussion about the jury process and how it impacts the event.

    I think having a jury selection that impacts the event as mush as it does, in such a completely unaccountable public way is very damaging to the event as a whole. And reckless to inflict on over a 130 people taking the time to play in the event.

    Some kind of discussion on the accountability of this group, to how this group impacts the competition is all I'm saying we should do.

    And I think that is more than reasonable.

  37. ISO #37
    Hi JP. Very convincing jury member checking in.

    What specifically would you like to see

  38. ISO #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Formal Shorts (#37)
    Hi JP. Very convincing jury member checking in.

    What specifically would you like to see
    Big dome. People hanging round the edge. Hammers and chainsaws and stuff. Tina Turner. Only way to be fair. If that doesn't work, weird roulette type wheel and banishment with a big mask on the loser's head.

  39. ISO #39
    The Self Narrator Owner Of A Lonely Heart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#27)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Paul (#16)
    With 17 player pods, how is the process of advancement going to be handled?
    Excellent question, and one that I haven't seen answered yet so I'll take my shot at it. Now, this hasn't been finalized yet due to a number of factors, so a lot of what I'm saying is hearsay and guesswork and thus should not be taken as one hundred percent fact or utterly and completely accurate. Some of the factors in question that I referred to earlier are as follows: First, the exact composition of the players/invited sites taking part has not been fully determined. Thingy is saying something along the lines of 8 to 9 total games, meaning, assuming the 17 figure stays consistent, there will be 136 to 153 players. However, we know how much Thingy likes to upscale with these things, so I wouldn't entirely rule out a 10th qualifying game happening at some point down the line, bringing the total number of players up to 170, which would break the record of 165 set in last year's Championships. None of this factors in subs, of course, but it wouldn't matter anyway since they're not added, merely replacing into an already-present slot. Anyway. Once the final count is set (and potentially reset), the qualifying games will be played and they'll be off, just like in past years. Once the games are concluded, also just like in past years, there will be vote taken amongst the players of the individual game they will in, the criteria being "best overall player" or something similar based on these players' observations of the others' skill while present in said game. At this point it is uncertain of the exact ranked voting scale. Last year, for example, the players submitted a vote of their top 3, in which the ranked voting went 4-3-2, first place getting 4, second place getting 3, and so on. However, that was when there was 15 players to a game, so it might not translate over perfectly. I believe in Season 3 Thingy made the voting for a top 4 where the points distribution might have been 5-4-3-1 or 5-4-3-2, but I suppose it doesn't matter exactly, the most important thing here is that there's going to be a player vote. From here, there's a number of possibilities that I suspect could happen in terms of how the vote goes down. The first possibility is what happened two years ago, when the games were also all 17ers: the top two players would each receive an automatic berth to the finale game. This would fit nicely with the overall kind of "improvement on Matrix12/s3" throwback theme we have going on in general with this season's setup so far. However, I think the more likely scenario is that just the top-voted player receives the automatic berth to the finale, and that second place is automatically sent into the wild cards. If you need a refresher on what the wild card precisely means, don't worry, that's coming along later. The obvious issue with both of these, and something that may need to be addressed, is what happens if there's a tie - either a 2-way tie in my latter scenario or a 3-way tie for first in my former scenario. In both of these cases there are more players receiving a share of first place than there are automatic spots to the finale available, and there are a number of options in place that I can think of that would be able to cut through this Gordion Knot of trouble. The first is that the players could revote, either in the form of ranked voting or, more likely, just a one-name runoff. This is an ideal solution but it might take time to wrangle all of the players to re-vote again. Second, Thingy could just have the initial tiebreaker be which player got more first-place votes, or a higher proportion of showing up on the ballot, depending on his mood and whim. This would eliminate the logistical issues of a revote nicely, and also solves the issue of a multi-leveled tiebreaker because the second tiebreaker in this format could be highest share of second-place votes, and so on. A third potential tiebreaker possibility is that the jury could simply name a winner, as they're already closely following in the game and in "player evaluation mode", so to speak, if they're doing their jobs properly. Lots of possibilities here in any case, so we should be fairly well-covered in any happenstance. Anyway, this process will repeat itself through all eight or nine or ten or however many qualifying games there are until all are included, hopefully without too much burnout on everyone's part but who knows about that point. From there, whatever spots aren't filled in both the finale and the wildcard(s) need to be filled. This is where the jury steps in. The jury, if you're not aware, consists of the finalists from the immediately prior season of Champs who have accepted Thingy's invitation. So the big names you all know and love and remember from S4 like Dels, dLGN, Yeti, Formal Shorts, etc. all have the chance to be reading and following along, thus continuing the hallowed tradition of Champs and passing the torch from one season to the next. My guess is that there will be two wildcard games in total, consisting of the standard 17 players per game, meaning that there are 34 wildcard spots that need to be filled. Perhaps the jury will need to select all 34 spots. Perhaps one of my earlier scenarios regarding player advancement will be correct and that some of the wildcard spots will be automatically filled by the player vote, meaning the jury will only have to select something along the lines of 25 or so spots. My assumption is that their criteria to fill these 25 spots will be exactly what their criteria was in past seasons, as well as the criteria that Thingy directs all of the players partaking in the direct finale vote to follow: best all-around (or perhaps "overall" but the difference is essentially negligible) player, from what they've seen in Champs. It will be slightly harder to make this calculation in a season with semi-variable setups as opposed to last year when all games were unified mountainous, but I have faith in the jury to be able to complete this task. And then the usual will happen: They will provide the names, plus a reasonable amount of subs in the event that any of the top 25 or whatever the number is can't play, to Thingy, Thingy will announce as much, he will slow roll the wildcard reveal as usual, and the wildcard games will be set. The wildcard games will then play out as usual under the same conditions as all of the season's qualifiers, and once the dust is settled there will be further player votes. Now, the wildcard players will be sending a lot of their own to the finale, moreso than in past years (especially compared to s3, two years ago in 2016 when they only sent one person, Newcomb), so the player vote might have to be expanded. But numbers aside, the wildcard people *will* send people to the finale to make up the last spots. The final question stems from exact distribution of spots from the two wildcard games, whether it will be evenly distributed or based on weighed votes. It's something to consider and off the top of my head I don't remember how it was the case last year, but in any case it's not exactly a high priority since invites haven't even gone out yet and we're now talking about one of the final stages of Champs, which is months away. So it's a problem (if there even is one) for another day. The finale is now set. There is still one game left to play. So Thingy will set the schedule, everyone will confirm, and they will play it, again under the same conditions as they did the wildcards and qualifiers (though phase timing etc throughout the games will vary based on collective player preference, forgot to mention that earlier but it seemed worthy of noting in any case). Once the finale has been concluded, there will be one final player vote, under the same conditions as all the others but with one important exception: the first place player will be named 2018 Mafia Champion and get the gold trophy. I think that covers everything; obviously there's still some intricacies to be ironed out but this should be a satisfactory basic overview.


    I suggest that GH adds some much needed white space and maybe some numbers or bullet points or just something that is chunkable

  40. ISO #40
    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    I think GH's post is good training for the champ games
    Come wayward souls,
    Who wander through the darkness,
    There is a light for the lost and the meek.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas
    You don't have to do anything except die
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash
    Look upon my works ye low hanging fruit and despair!
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash
    I'm not accusing you of meta

    I'm accusing you of a wolfiest

    The most heinous of crimes

  41. ISO #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#40)
    I think GH's post is good training for the champ games
    That or a policy lynch

  42. ISO #42
    FUNNIER6 GOAT Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaleb (#30)
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#27)
    Words
    tl;dr this for me pls.
    Done.

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