Results 1 to 26 of 26

Thread: #14: Applying Psychoanalysis (by Quick)

  1. ISO #1
    Season 5 Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    On a pirate ship
    Posts
    8,317
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    Totalwar.org (The Org)
    AKA
    GH, Fuchs
    Gender

    #14: Applying Psychoanalysis (by Quick)

    Article #14: Applying Psychoanalysis
    - written by Quick

    These are my 3 levels of Psychoanalysis. They can be used independently, or in combination with each other. The differences in the three different approaches to getting reads this way are dependent on how much you are zooming on on the players of the game. The first level is the most zoomed out because it's based on concrete behaviors and not looking as deeply into the motivation of a player. The second level is one step closer to the player in that you are categorizing play type on a specific set of criteria. The third level is a very personal look at an individual that works nicely with the second level.

    ---

    Psychoanalysis Level 1

    The first level of Psychoanalysis is viewing things as very tangible, concrete behaviors that you can measure fairly easily. I call this my Pro-Town and Anti-Town lists. While the first level of psychoanalysis is a bit shallow, It can still give you an idea of who is Town in the game and can help narrow down the PoE a bit. The general way you use this method is by creating a checklist for everyone in the game and seeing who the people who fulfill the most Pro-Town criteria and the least Anti-Town behavior.

    Pro-Town behavior:
    - Being active - If you are making the bare minimum of the post requirement you are probably not posting enough. Being active does two things. 1) Makes it easier for people to give you a town read and 2) prevents Scum from winning simply from lurking the whole game.

    - Asking probing questions - this is a huge part of the game. If you are not asking questions to players, you best have a really good reason for why. Asking questions help in a multitude of different ways and a topic could probably be made just on this but here are a few.
    1) It tells Town that you are actively trying to solve the game which can help you get a town read.
    2) Obviously if you ask a question you are going to get some information out of it even if they don't answer which can help you to clinch that scum read you were thinking about or help clear someone from possibly getting lynch that is Town.
    3) It can stop you from assuming something about someone by simply asking a question like "What do you mean?" or "Why?" or "Could you explain your thought process here?"

    - Providing a conclusion - Simply providing a rundown of what has happened in the thread can help, but it helps 10X more when you provide what your thoughts are about what has happened means rather than simply stating facts. Conclusions should be logically sound and not something used as WIFOM to be effective. Your conclusion should be Inductive or Deductive reasoning and something that is not easily refutable. An accurate conclusion doesn't have to be a super complex thing, it can simply be used to tell if what someone says is true or not. There are occasions where giving your thoughts on things as a matter of perspective is a good thing to do as well. I just say using Inductive or Deductive reasoning is ideal.

    - Putting in effort into the game - Play every game like you want to win and if you can't do that, don't play. Showing effort may not be AI, but based on the content that is produced from putting in effort very well could be.

    - SCUM HUNTING - admittedly this looks different for different types of players, but it should be obvious that you are doing it. Scum hunting is the fundamental basis for a Mafia game. It is doing anything that leads to finding something out about a players alignment in the game. This can range from reaction testing to trapping Scum with a series of questions. Since Scum hunting is such a fundamental part of the game, Scum have to fake this. Scum often don't have the same level of depth with their Scum hunting that Town does.

    - Making new points - if you are making new points on things and providing new analysis to the game, this shows that you are actively trying to solve the game. This is something that is Townie because Scum have a harder time to come up with new legitimate things to analyze in the game.

    - Observing reactions - It is one things to make plays yourself, but it’s on another level to observe and make a conclusion (whether stated ITT or not) on a conversation that you were not even a part of. Keep your eyes sharp and watch everything that happens in the thread and comment on what what observations and conclusions you have made. I have observed that often the best posts are ones that have a lot of people involved in a single conversation and it sometimes just takes someone with the wherewithal to conclude what several people have said about a single topic to be very meaningful to the game. I admit this is very difficult for me to do personally.

    Anti-Town behavior:
    - Posting WAY too much - If you are taking up a large chunk of the total post in the thread you are posting way too much and are not allowing discussion from happening between many people that would otherwise have plenty to say about the game and to each other. This is mostly a problem if you are posting fluff, but if you have half the post in the game, you are going to need to relax a bit. I have been guilty of this on occasion. Posting too much may or may not be AI for an individual, but it hurts Town's chances of finding Scum so it should be avoided.

    - Posting too little - If you are posting the bare minimum of the post requirement you are not giving town enough to work with. Even if you are just posting the bare minimum and making huge gigantic posts with one liners, this does not help Town win for two reasons 1) It keeps people from even wanting to read that monster, let alone respond to everything you have said and 2) It does a lot of harm for the thread to flow organically. If people are not responding to things as they come up then there is really no change of opinion for people when you are bringing up a lot of old information that can get addressed relatively easily by just letting people think about a couple topics at a time and being able to then come up with a conclusion. This is not the same as an ISO case where you are quoting/linking many posts from a specific person.

    - Extreme WIFOM - While debatably WIFOM has its place even as a Town tactic, if all you are doing is that, then you are not helping Town narrow down possibilities, but instead creating conversations that don't lead to anywhere.

    - Low effort posting - while effort isn’t indicative of alignment, if all you are doing is making low effort posts i.e. just one liners, I am going to think you may be just trying to coast as Mafia to get an easy win by watching Town tear itself apart.

    - Voting for yourself without a really good reason - While it's really easy sometimes to throw up a vote for yourself due to being upset or whatnot, most of the time it creates a ton of unnecessary WIFOM and is rarely productive for Town to help in finding scum. I only really "expect" for Scum to vote for themselves for a hammer to take time away from Town for the rest of the Day Phase regarding self-voting.

    - IIoA (information instead of analysis) - This is where you are stating facts but are not providing any kind of conclusion on what this means. Almost anyone has the capability of giving facts that have happened in the thread, but if you are not telling what that means, it just ends up being a recap of events that doesn't add anything new.

    - Sheeping too much - While sheeping as an isolated incident isn’t a Scum tell, doing it over and over without ever providing any of your own thoughts out there is Scummy.

    ---

    Psychoanalysis Level 2

    The second level of Psychoanalysis is used to get an understanding of the players’ psychology, which can inform you of how they approach the game in general. Knowing how a player approaches the game can give you an understanding of what they are trying to do in the game, which can help you decide if what they are saying is coming from Town or Scum mindset or not.

    Approach Stong Fluid
    Utility Structure Creativity
    Method Occam's Razor Psychoanalysis

    These are my own observations on different types of players played over roughly 100 games. There are four different types of players I have been able to distinguish in my time playing mafia. I do not say this as an exhaustive list and there are variable combinations of these types, but to keep this article from getting unnecessarily complicated, I will just talk as though there are 4 different types of players.

    First, let's break things down. From what I see, there are two different categories that each have two different dichotomies. The first category is based on a player's outlook on how to go about doing things. This category is called their Utility. The other category is based on a player's inclination towards extrapolation. This category is their Method.

    Some people like having more unknowns in a game and some people like having less unknowns in a game. People who like less unknowns in a game like to work with a known Structure to direct them. Those who like more unknowns in a game like to work Creatively. Players who like to work with a known Structure generally prefer Open, Semi-Open/Closed, and Mountainous games. Players who like to work Creatively typically like Closed Setups, Role Madness/Bastard Games, and Mismash games. The biggest difference as it appears in play for these two types is based on how organized they are in their approach to the game. Structured players are more organized, but they are also less adaptable. Creative players are very versatile but they are less organized.

    Different players also have different ways they reach conclusions. Some players make conclusions based on the facts or concrete data in the game thread and some people make conclusions based on their interpretation of motive from a players post. Players who make decisions based on facts don’t produce reads as fast as those who make decisions based on interpretation because the player who makes decisions based on facts uses deduction while the person who makes decisions based on interpretation looks to extrapolate. The tool that the person basing their reads on facts uses Occam’s Razor as their Method, while the person who bases their reads on interpretation uses Psychoanalysis as their Method. Players who use Occam's Razor are looking at/for specific things and those who use Psychoanalysts try and look at what a player is telling them and deciding if it is Townie or Scummy without looking at/for specific things.

    Players who use Utility of Structure and use the Method of Occam’s Razor typically do not fluff post. These players plan out their actions methodically and their content is typically very straight forward. They don’t tend to beat around the bush much. Because they generally have a lower post count, they are not usually targeted for NK early on since they don’t usually pose an immediate threat to Scum. They tend to slowly work through reads measuring the evidence both for and against whether the players in the game are Scum or not. While this type may not be all that charismatic, they can heavily rely on their reasoning to do the convincing for them. Their greatest weakness is that they tend to take longer to form reads on players than other types of players. They’re greatest strength is in their ability to generally get accurate reads in late game and are best at mechanically solving a game they have had time to solidify their reads for and look at all the evidence. These are players who are very dangerous late game because they are using information from the whole entire thread to deduce some very specific things about the game. They do not let their emotions get the better of them. This type of player is very unlikely to use Appeal to Emotions.

    Players who use Utility of Structure and use the Method of Psychoanalysis are generally not the type to fluff post, but they might join in with RVS if they think they might be able to get something out of it. The way this kind of player plans is by being very articulate with their word choice. They know themselves that what they say can be analyzed so they may take the pains to analyze themselves/their play at large. They can have some unique insights about things which makes them a valuable part of the Town because of the content this generates. This player might change votes without a visible reason, but they can usually back up what their reason is if you ask. This type of player would rather try and sway people based on their reasoning for their reads than through personality alone. Their greatest weakness is that sometimes their interpretation of a player's post(s) are completely inaccurate. Their greatest strength is in analyzing key posts to make really good reads either very early or late in the game or based on the information they have on players in the game. This type of player doesn’t typically like giving “gut” reads, but they may occasionally give gut reads that can be accurate.

    Players who use Utility of Creativity and the Method of Occam’s Razor are typically high volume posters. They are not afraid of fluff posting to spice things up a bit and attempt to generate some early reactions. This type of player likes to throw a lot of ideas out into the game and feel out what players reactions to what they do is. These players like to engage with players in real time. They are not at all shy about throwing their votes and reads around if it gets them closer to solving the game through a mistake of the opposition. This type of player tries to convince others that the are right through their charisma and charm. Their greatest weakness is that because they are changing their reads around so much, they don’t have a lot of consistency in what they are pushing and it’s easy to point out contradictions in their play. Their greatest strength is in causing the other team to mess up at a key point in the game practically showing them their role card. These kinds of players can be very competent but they often have a Scummy meta so when they are Town they have difficulty generating a strong Town read for themselves.

    And finally, players who use Utility of Creativity and the Method of Psychoanalysis don’t really consider anything irrelevant in a game and are probably best at being themselves in a game regardless of if they are Town or Scum. They might not think they are fluff posting when everyone else does think they are. These types of players are the type to jump on any wagon at practically any time. They are unpredictable and that is what makes them excellent at generating content for the game. They convince Town to vote with them at key moments in the game such as close to deadline. They will probably try and start a Chinese Fire Drill on someone near End of Day if they are around and there hasn’t been a lynch yet. They really like to mix things up. Their greatest weakness is that they don’t really have a whole lot of meat and potatoes in their play and so their reasoning for their read are sometimes not very satisfying. Their greatest strength is in keeping the morale of Town high and generating lots of content for people to digest down the road. These players are usually a bast to play with if you don’t mind laughing… lol.

    People’s preference for different kinds of setups is something that may be interesting to analyze. Players whose Utility is in Creativity do not want what is "plain" whether they know it or not. They view such things as insignificant because there is not anything that is explicitly dramatic in the structure itself. Players whose Utility is in Structure would much rather play a setup that is at least somewhat predictable. A game that doesn’t have features of explicit drama built into the structure allows players to use the predictability of the setup to narrow their focus on the key things that they want to address. Power Roles are often a source of internal conflict within the setup. The more Town Power Roles you have, the more the Scum Power Roles are going to directly conflict with the Town Power Roles. The greater the conflict a game has by way of contrast between TPRs and Scum PRs produces an anticipation for all the players in the game, the more players have to keep their options open on the "main actors" (the PRs) until players have found the limit to the chaos [climax] and start to put the pieces together [resolution].

    ---

    Psychoanalysis Level 3

    There is one more level of psychoanalysis… This is the most complicated of the three. What the third level of psychoanalysis is, is taking into account what the specific characteristics of a player are both in an individual game and what you know of them from past games and trying to find what makes them a unique player in the world of mafia. Everyone is different, and as such, everyone has things that make their play unique to them. This level of analysis depends not on specific things that a player does as either alignment, but instead based on the narrative that they have established.

    One of the tools of this method is looking for internal consistency in a way that a player behaves in a way unique to themselves as a player. What we can say about this is that as you get more experience with a player, you start to understand the narrative that they use to view the game and other players. Some players are very easy to understand on an individual level and others takes a lot of time. The question you have to ask yourself when looking at a player's consistency as a player is to ask yourself "Does this line of thinking match up with what I have known from them in the past?" You can use this way of viewing things to generate a Town read on someone if they do have a consistent narrative and a Scum read on someone if they an inconsistent narrative.

    An example of how I correctly used this Method of Psychoanalysis is when I made a bet with Makaze based on Ardent's alignment in Game 1 Season 5 of the Mafia Championships. There was a supposed "slip" that Ardent did that people in the Discord chat had varying opinions on. Some people were Scum reading Ardent not based on the supposed “slip” but their reaction to what they did after people accused them of such a slip. I was not Scum Reading Ardent based on the slip or their reacting to the slip. I found by about Post 400 that I had more or less understood a key component to the kind of player that Ardent was and was Town Reading them.

    The so-called "slip", and exchange that follows, starts here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardent (#2245)
    I've discounted the JK because isn't it the case that if a mafia member is jailed, another person does the kill? Or does JK work differently here?
    What I was able to figure out about Ardent is that they had an unconventional use of dichotomy for reading people (a conundrum I have myself) compared to the rest of the players in the game. I was also able to determine that they were not used to the way players were playing in this game and were a bit taken aback at how people were playing. I felt Ardent was Town here based on their reaction to being accused of slipping because of the way other people generally treated Ardent earlier in the game which was in part based on a supposed miscommunication between Elusia and Ardent.

    In Ardent's first post of the game, Ardent said that "Elusia is playing a bit dumb so far, as well." Ardent had to clarify they meant Elusia was "playing dumb" later, which I suspect is because this is a Mafia Championships game after all, and Elusia had said they have only played in 3 games so far. Elusia thought Ardent was saying that Elusia was dumb rather than that Elusia was "playing dumb" as in, acting like they were not as smart/experienced as they actually were. This set the groundwork for how Ardent was perceived by others, effecting how Ardent was viewing their own play in this game, and how Ardent was viewing how other players were viewing their play.

    The key factor that tipped me off that Ardent was Town in relation to the way they reacted towards being accused of Scum slipping, was that they previously had been misunderstood before in this game. The slip is explained by Ardent's misunderstanding the way the JailKeeper role works on this site because JailKeeper works differently on their site. Later when they were accused of the slip, they felt like they had made a BIG mistake, when really, it was a very easy mistake to make given that Jailkeeper works differently on their home site. It seemed reasonable to me that Ardent would notice how people were treating them and react the way they did after being accused of slipping after making a "dumb" mistake. I can relate to Ardent's reaction a lot because I also tend to be put in the position where what I am saying is misunderstood and it makes me look very Scummy at times. Ardent had accepted their lynch, so the Discord chat had assumed that Ardent was Scum while I was seeing that there was a Town perspective in what Ardent was doing that others did not see.

    The point here is that different people react differently to different things. Ardent could have been stubborn and not admitted he made a mistake until he was forced to and still gotten lynched. But Ardent reacted in a more self-conscious, reflective, and responsible way rather than an aggressive, defiant way. The narrative that Ardent had was that of being misunderstood, which is an internally consistent narrative for them to have. In this game Ardent chose to "man up" to their mistakes and admit fault when there is fault to be had, which is an extremely self-sacrificing and humble way of playing in the Mafia Championships.

    ---

    Conclusion

    In closing, I would like to say that this is just one way to view the game and there are other valid and good ways to get reads on people. You can also use this method as Scum because it is a method that is malleable enough to spin things to your liking since most of it is subjective. You can also inform your Scum buddies that you are going to be using this way of playing so that they know they are using this criteria to Town Read people so that you can justifiably Town Read them for fulfilling your criteria.

    Thanks for reading this post and I look forward to playing with you.

    ---

    Cliffs:
    • There are different ways to read people depending on how far zoomed in/out you are looking, which I call Psychoanalysis.
    • The first level of Psychoanalysis is based on very tangible, concrete behavioral data that is the same for everyone and can help with generating a few Town Reads to narrow down the PoE a bit
    • The second level of Psychoanalysis is based on identifying the type of player you are playing with.
    • The type of player you are playing with can fit into one dichotomy of two categories for a total of 4 different types.
    • Depending on the type of players you are playing with, you can get an idea of what they are trying to accomplish which can be used to understand motive.
    • The third level of Psychoanalysis is based on how every player is different and have different things that motivate them.
    • One way of using the third and most personal level of Psychoanalysis is by looking at whether they have a consistent narrative that flows throughout their play. If they have a consistent narrative, they have a better chance of being Town vs an inconsistent narrative which means they have a better chance of being Scum.
    Lenny - Today at 10:08 AM
    Atpg sometimes the paragraphs you write are pretty good


    Looking to waste an afternoon? Vamos Cartagena - Football Manager 2018 AAR (in progress)

  2. ISO #2
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    11,588
    Timezone
    UTC-07:00
    Community
    PlayDiplomacy, MafiaScum
    Pronouns
    he/him/his/his/himself
    Gender
    Interesting article!

    Also /in for quick's psychoanalysis profiling

    Also first
    Life is simply unfair... don't you think?
    http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=mhsmith0

    BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me

  3. ISO #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    17,548
    Timezone
    UTC+01:00
    Community
    MU
    Gender
    /in

  4. ISO #4
    Soul Reader Quick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Filling The Void
    Posts
    4,487
    Timezone
    UTC-06:00
    Community
    Nomad, vagabond, call me what you will ♫
    AKA
    Quick
    Gender
    First off, I want to say I am very flattered that people want me to give my analysis of them as a player. But you know how it goes, if I do it for one person I have to do it for everyone. I will take this as a sign that people liked my article, which I really appreciate.
    Retired

  5. ISO #5
    Hey, so I appreciate the effort you put in this as I said and we chatted privately before about this. I didn't have the time to check what changes you made in this after we talked so sorry if I should have omitted any of these points. You asked me to post these stuff when your article is posted as well so I'm gonna do it

    I really don't have so much to add to this for real. This is a good analysis. Some things though:

    1 - I don't think the way you model stuff is actually accurate as it's not really 3 different levels of social behavior that makes people what they do. If you ask my opinion, I would argue the third level is the only real thing cause the goal of this game is to find motivations and the only alignment indicative thing that exists in games is that. I would argue "no action or reaction is AI, only motivations are AI" (quoting myself) and everything is meaningful in context and based on the social behavioral pattern.

    2- I think the first level is not complete and has issues but its a good way to show specially the newer players, what is the general good and productive behavior that must be adopt and what should be considered a "good play". thing is analyzing actions is nearly always misleading for alignment hunt if its the only thing you're doing. saying x is posting too much they are scum or stuff like that are really really low level town play and the accuracy off these stuff without considering anything else are usually random. I still like that you listed a bunch of good behaviors and bad behaviors but instead of calling it behavioral analysis for alignment hunt I would call it productive manners/unproductive manners and maybe the first layer of the behavioral pattern everyone shows.

    3- As I said before to you, I think your way of personality modeling (the second layer) is not really accurate and I can see way more categories for players personalities. Also the strength and weaknesses you mentioned for each category might be your own impression from the people you know and not a personality trait. I endorse personality modelings but I think they are not quite actually scientific/true or complete. Yet analyzing them might help you to know yourself better and that worth something.

    4- You must consider that mafia is a social game and mafia players behave as a social colony, each entity has interactions and reads and behave when interacting with other players in this network (or even people or stuff that are out of this network and might effect their mood). If you consider the element of social interactions too, your system will become more chaotic, meaning with a single little change in some node, the whole network will change in an unpredictable manner and modeling a chaotic system statically - the way you did might become faulty.
    My solution to this is to add probability to your model and to not say if they do x y is certain or if player x is in model y they are good at this and bad at those. Instead say people who are characteristically more close to category x or people who do y and z have a greater chance to have these weaknesses/strength and are towny/scummy
    5- In mafia - again because of the complicated network structure - you must always consider the wisdom of the crowd as a factor - which is what people refer to as "general conscious". Thing is mafia has no direct control over it and they must obey what general conscious decides anyway. Even when you're anlysing the third layer you mentioned, when you're considering people motivations - people might be just following the general conscious instead of having an agenda. THOUGH analyzing who builds that conscious and how it is formed and what's its basis can tell more about the motivations which can certainly be AI.

    Thanks for the great article and goatness. o/

  6. ISO #6
    Wants It More
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    7,074
    Timezone
    UTC+10:00
    Pronouns
    they/them/their/theirs/themself
    Gender
    I agree mostly with FA, especially about level 2 and 3, but would also add that while the model used in the second layer is really interesting and prompted a lot of discussion between me and someone else, I believe strongly that Structure vs. Creativity is an environmental feedback loop and Occam's vs. Psychoanalysis are not only mislabelled but arise from a bad premise (facts do not exist without interpretation and interpretation does not exist without information). I definitely agree there are players who prefer one or the other and there is a traditional trichotomy of 'analytical vs. mechanical vs. (intuition, whatever it's called)' for preference of information used and generated which Occam's vs. Psychoanalysis sort of encapsulates but misses a lot of nuance of, like the fact that players also may primarily interact with individuals, mechanical and gamestate information, etc. depending on the type of game, and these can be variants of either. I feel like your dichotomy describes, for example, tone readers and worldbuilders but maybe not imaginative analytical players.

    Environmental feedback loop: A player whose site metagame is dominantly one or the other will obviously be influenced by that. On a site like MU where both are available relative to other sites, the player, depending on who they are, may either self-select into games that suit their preferences or adapt. Of those who try to adapt, their success rate skews it a lot, and the format affects whether they look scummy or not, which is something you've stated in a vacuum when that isn't true ('scummy meta'). Also I guess I would say it's less important than the typical manifestations of these players in both the information they use to solve the game, and whether they are likely to generate theories from information or generate theories then check with information, etc... I'm kinda tired now and I haven't explained what I mean very well...

    Personally, I moved from what you would call a Creativity player to a Structure player because the majority of Creativity games on here are 12/12 and I can't play them, but I played closed role madness for 8 years. Environmental factors still describe how someone thinks something (and partially why), but it's important to contextualise these preferences with regard to struggle and why things manifest that way. Someone who sees the environments as very different, like me, might regard some information as more important in one type than another (and I believe I'm correct: in mashes, mechanical information is incredibly important and a lot of solving is done off hard evidence, yet those are closed role madness games where quick interpretations are necessary to sort through players at every stage of the game). Also, metagame assumptions inform your descriptions a lot (for example about fluffposting and AtE, which are variably viable strategies on different sites).

    I respect the attempt to make a model of player psychology though and think it's a good starting board for discussion of how people categorise others.

    I also disagree a lot with your list of pro-town and anti-town behaviours, because I believe the importance of level 3, especially when placed in the context that players also behave differently around other players, changes so many of them. I understand that list is part of level 1 psychoanalysis, but I wouldn't call it psychoanalysis at all really, as it simply seeks to categorise behaviour. I hope to be more free to reply to the list soon, as there are specific entries I wish to contest. I believe the behaviours described in level 1 are deeply revealing as to thought process and if you were to say that a behaviour is weighted a particular way like in level 1 I would still contest their placement. I will return to level 1 when I can because I do not agree with you that level 1 can be used independently really, and you definitely couldn't call it psychoanalysis.

    I was also spectating the game when Ardent made that post! Ardent's slip was also easily analysed by thinking about plausible behaviour of personality, as is the case with most slips. You covered the reaction stuff, but also Ardent stated clearly that they were focusing on one element (protective/killing) of the jailkeeper role over the other and weren't thinking wholly integrated. When you looked at the rest of their thought process and how they were theorising, it was very plausible that Ardent was making internally consistent mechanical mistakes, especially given the context that on Ardent's site, JK works differently. Of course, a wolf could fake this thought process, but then there are other indicators that it was not faked. Plus you could also think about whether Ardent's slip was defensible and whether the format and gamestate meant Ardent could be a wolf PR worth saving and then try to figure out if he was being mislynched or not. Or you could look at his wagon and see if your scumreads are on it, or analyse the people pointing out the slip. There are lots of ways personality reads can be combined with other forms of information.

    I thought this was one of the strongest parts of the article by the way and very well-explained. I provided examples of how others may have arrived at the same read to broaden it and demonstrate how the definitions here might be a little lacking, since psychoanalysis is closer to a 'personality/motivation' read + meta but can make use of a variety of mechanical, narrative, and analytical information which you kinda precluded a little bit by how your model is structured in Level 2. I do agree psychoanalysis is a more speculative method, of course.

    Really interesting article though and nice to see it posted. I hope I can get around to posting more thoughts on it or just hitting you up on Discord. It was a good read.
    Last edited by jumpluff; June 1st, 2018 at 10:23 AM.

  7. ISO #7
    Soul Reader Quick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Filling The Void
    Posts
    4,487
    Timezone
    UTC-06:00
    Community
    Nomad, vagabond, call me what you will ♫
    AKA
    Quick
    Gender
    I have couple things to say just in general and in my defence.

    The first thing I want to touch on is that I think people are getting a little hung up on the word "Psychoanalysis" and I think this is in error. Psychoanalysis as it is generally understood is based strictly on thought process. The thing is, this is a misconception. In clinical psychology, a psychoanalyst does look at behavior. Reason for this is that thoughts affect emotions affect behaviors affect beliefs; they all affect each other. Naturally because of the nature of Mafia and how this is a social game where people are on the outset separated into different categories, this is going to have an effect on how they approach the game. The thing about this is that because the rules of Mafia are a constant, this means people are going to react to those rules in a predictable way. Enter the 1st level of Psychoanalysis: Because the rules of mafia in the game are the same, regardless of individual personalities, there WILL be a trend of behavior for both Town and Scum given enough time. Now if you disagree with the behaviors I listed, or think it's incomplete or whatever, then we can talk about that. Also, I don't know this for sure, but I think people might think the 1st level of Psychoanalysis that the lists are tiered as different importance. They are not. Furthermore, I HAVE actually solved a game using just the 1st level of Psychoanalysis. That said, like I said in the article, It's more meant to give you an idea of Top Town Reads and isn't really meant to solve the game on it's own.

    Now I guess I will talk more about the 2nd level of Psychoanalysis in my defense. First off, I want to say that there WILL be different metrics to categorize people into categories, but I DO maintain that people in general, and because of this playstyles CAN be categorized into different groups. What I used as Structure vs Creative was based off viewing this different between how people approach the game time after time after time. To be sure, and to make a callback to what I said in the article, there are different levels of extremes between these.. Some people are very heavy on one vs the other but most people will fall in a more moderate place. That is what I can say for Utility. As far as Method goes, if it helps you to think about it this way, you can think about it sort of as S v N in MBTI. The Occam's Razor user is going to look at more concrete "real world" data, while the Psychoanalysis is going to try and understand certain things as a whole. The basic idea here is that it's mostly what people are looking at for their Method that determines how they are approaching the game. I made a post talking about two different players and how what they are looking at determines certain things about their play. I wrote an article about the 2nd level of Psychoanalysis on my home site (PerC) and that is where you can find this conversation but let me link this post: http://www.personalitycafe.com/mafia...l#post41893018 here's what I said:

    There are different ways to interpret the differences between Act's and Pozzai's approach. I will give a few of them and try and tie them together.

    And I want to make this crystal clear that neither method is superior to the other, they are just different.

    One of the differences is in the interpretation of what they are looking at. I would argue in some sense they are both looking at motive, but the difference is really in something I have recently coined as "soft tells" vs. "evidence based tells". Pozzai is looking at "concrete data" (votes) and Act is looking at "subjective data" (tone). It is mostly what they are looking at that is different and how it can be manipulated. For example, someone could learn to manipulate what their tone is, but someone cannot manipulate what their vote looks like. If someone votes Player X, that vote is going to be the same regardless, but people can write their posts many different way saying the same thing. The process behind these two methods of getting reads is different as a consequence of this. The two things are different categorically. Pozzai's interpretation has to be based on a fact in a game while Act's interpretation is based on variable information.

    Someone who is looking at what cannot be disputed in a game as a method and interpreting that as a Town or Scum action (such as votes) is categorically different then someone who is looking at an interpretation of an event as a method and interpreting that as a Town or Scum action (such as Tone). This is based on the idea that people's minds work differently in how they come to decisions. If I might say it as a metaphor, it's the difference between crystallized and fluid intelligence. BOTH work to give what is categorically someone's overall IQ, but they are different categorically. Act is using fluid intelligence to determine if someone is Scum or not and Pozzai is using crystallized intelligence to determine if someone is Scum or not. Now, clearly, it is NOT that clear cut, but the principle is the same. So while you could argue that Act is looking at the sentence structure that someone uses and relaying that to memory (crystallized intelligence) to say whether they have seen something the same before and what alignment that person was and you could argue that Pozzai is looking at vote patterns that are never going to repeat again and figuring out on the fly (fluid intelligence) to determine who is Scum, I would argue there is a LOT more variance in the sentence structures that people use and the way Town/Scum approach voting is something that has much less variance.

    You could also say that the difference is between singular reasoning and interpretable reasoning. Pozzai is looking at vote patterns and the foundation of that kind of reasoning is based on one single principle: How people function in a group when there is segregation as a basic rule. Act is looking at Tone and there really is no foundational principle: Each case is determined independently. Pozzai is using a rule or set of rules that are always the same and applying them to people's behavior to determine who is Scum/Town. Act is looking at people's behavior to see what rule or rules they are following which is different for everyone to determine if they are Scum/Town.
    Some last things on the 2nd level: you could say in a way that the Utility is the behavioral aspect of how people play and the Method is how people think about the game. While thoughts do influence behavior, it should be noted that there is a gradient of how people think about the game that can influence what they do in the game. In otherwords, when looking at the 2nd Level, I want to point out that the different specific Types out of the 4 are thinking about the game in the same manner. But this all goes back to the fact that because Mafia is a game where there are explicit rules stated that there are only so many approaches to this that people in general are going to react to this. Why? Because believe it or not, what you do in your life is very very specific. People do not have absolute freedom in their lives because society sets up rules for how people are supposed to behave. If you don't behave in an acceptable way, you get punished. Mafia is the same thing... There are only so many approaches that can be considered "valid" because of the most important rule in Mafia, "Play to your win condition."
    Retired

  8. ISO #8
    Soul Reader Quick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Filling The Void
    Posts
    4,487
    Timezone
    UTC-06:00
    Community
    Nomad, vagabond, call me what you will ♫
    AKA
    Quick
    Gender
    @Thingyman, I would be interested in seeing what you have to say about this.

    Edit: Actually, gunna tag some other people for their thoughts as well.

    @Makaze @Askthepizzaguy @Lissa @Visorslash @GeneralHankerchief

    You don't need to write a page on this or anything, but it would be nice to hear a few thoughts from you guys.

    If I didn't mention you, don't take it personally, I am just giving a few names here.
    Last edited by Quick; June 1st, 2018 at 08:19 PM.
    Retired

  9. ISO #9
    Season 5 Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    On a pirate ship
    Posts
    8,317
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    Totalwar.org (The Org)
    AKA
    GH, Fuchs
    Gender
    I've done like nothing but write/edit long posts this entire week lol. I'll see if I can't bang something out before Monday.
    Lenny - Today at 10:08 AM
    Atpg sometimes the paragraphs you write are pretty good


    Looking to waste an afternoon? Vamos Cartagena - Football Manager 2018 AAR (in progress)

  10. ISO #10
    Soul Reader Quick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Filling The Void
    Posts
    4,487
    Timezone
    UTC-06:00
    Community
    Nomad, vagabond, call me what you will ♫
    AKA
    Quick
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#9)
    I've done like nothing but write/edit long posts this entire week lol. I'll see if I can't bang something out before Monday.
    Appreciate it.
    Retired

  11. ISO #11
    Thread Analyst the worst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    541
    Timezone
    UTC+09:30
    Gender
    quack of approval!

  12. ISO #12
    Bandwagoner shadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Vancouver
    Posts
    169
    Timezone
    UTC-07:00
    Community
    Play Diplomacy & Atheist Forums
    Pronouns
    she/her/her/hers/herself
    Gender
    Interesting article, Quick. Hope it's okay to comment on these?

    I would say that in my experience, to scumhunt properly you need full mastery of all three of these levels. I don't think a good player can be slotted into one category or another, as the most effective player will dynamically use all of these tools as they are required.

    Sometimes a meta read is crucial and the only way you can read someone properly. But the scumhunting process is ultimately grounded in the first level anti-town tells you give, which become meaningful in context. And the second types of player you discuss, once again, can be flitted between depending on context, I think. A player who fails to express emotions or refuses to spontaneously jump between wagons when the time is right is missing a huge amount of the tools at their disposal.

    So I see putting these in a list as somewhat misleading, as proper analysis involved all of these working fluidly. That's my 2 cents anyways.

  13. ISO #13
    Soul Reader Quick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Filling The Void
    Posts
    4,487
    Timezone
    UTC-06:00
    Community
    Nomad, vagabond, call me what you will ♫
    AKA
    Quick
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by shadow (#12)
    Interesting article, Quick. Hope it's okay to comment on these?

    I would say that in my experience, to scumhunt properly you need full mastery of all three of these levels. I don't think a good player can be slotted into one category or another, as the most effective player will dynamically use all of these tools as they are required.

    Sometimes a meta read is crucial and the only way you can read someone properly. But the scumhunting process is ultimately grounded in the first level anti-town tells you give, which become meaningful in context. And the second types of player you discuss, once again, can be flitted between depending on context, I think. A player who fails to express emotions or refuses to spontaneously jump between wagons when the time is right is missing a huge amount of the tools at their disposal.

    So I see putting these in a list as somewhat misleading, as proper analysis involved all of these working fluidly. That's my 2 cents anyways.
    I found the bold to be very very interesting.

    As far as players not fitting any one type, I think I tried to say that there are combinations of these dynamics, but that I just used 4 types to simplify that part. I will say that I think people tend to gravitate towards particular ways of playing in general.
    Retired

  14. ISO #14
    Mafia Backup Amrock sheepsaysmeep's Avatar Game Manager
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    21,065
    Timezone
    UTC-08:00
    Community
    aops
    AKA
    sheep
    Pronouns
    he/him/his/his/himself
    Gender
    fun

    remind me to read later
    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#67)
    Stop calling things natural. This world isnt natural. You can get butt implants and $#@!

  15. ISO #15
    Soul Reader Quick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Filling The Void
    Posts
    4,487
    Timezone
    UTC-06:00
    Community
    Nomad, vagabond, call me what you will ♫
    AKA
    Quick
    Gender
    @sheepsaysmeep, I am reminding you to read this now because I think now is later, but I am not sure when later is exactly.
    Retired

  16. ISO #16
    Season 5 Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    On a pirate ship
    Posts
    8,317
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    Totalwar.org (The Org)
    AKA
    GH, Fuchs
    Gender
    In general I think the concept and placement of your three-tiered structure is a solid idea. I say this because I've found your third level the most useful in terms of success/getting a good handle on the game in my experience. However, I think that should be the end goal - levels one and two shouldn't be judged on their own merits, but instead should be a mere stepping stone towards level three.

    This is because levels one and two can be subverted by a good player, while it's a LOT harder to do this with level three. For instance, back when you were showing me an earlier draft of this article, I asked for more specific clarification of what you meant by certain pro- and anti-town behaviors, mostly because I had this in my mind. Well, what do you mean by scumhunting? How can you distinguish between real and fake variants of it? That sort of thing. Likewise with level two, I don't really find myself classified into any of those four outlined categories. Do I think I'm a closer match with some more than others? Sure. But is it a comfortable fit? Not really. That sort of thing.

    Subversion becomes a lot harder to manage when it comes to level three stuff, assuming it's properly applied. Figure out what makes that individual player tick, get in their headspace (if you can), and go from there. If you can see where they're coming from as town, more power to you. If not, you know to start measuring rope - or at the very least, you know to ask them more stuff to get a better idea.
    Lenny - Today at 10:08 AM
    Atpg sometimes the paragraphs you write are pretty good


    Looking to waste an afternoon? Vamos Cartagena - Football Manager 2018 AAR (in progress)

  17. ISO #17
    Soul Reader Quick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Filling The Void
    Posts
    4,487
    Timezone
    UTC-06:00
    Community
    Nomad, vagabond, call me what you will ♫
    AKA
    Quick
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#16)
    In general I think the concept and placement of your three-tiered structure is a solid idea. I say this because I've found your third level the most useful in terms of success/getting a good handle on the game in my experience. However, I think that should be the end goal - levels one and two shouldn't be judged on their own merits, but instead should be a mere stepping stone towards level three.

    This is because levels one and two can be subverted by a good player, while it's a LOT harder to do this with level three. For instance, back when you were showing me an earlier draft of this article, I asked for more specific clarification of what you meant by certain pro- and anti-town behaviors, mostly because I had this in my mind. Well, what do you mean by scumhunting? How can you distinguish between real and fake variants of it? That sort of thing. Likewise with level two, I don't really find myself classified into any of those four outlined categories. Do I think I'm a closer match with some more than others? Sure. But is it a comfortable fit? Not really. That sort of thing.

    Subversion becomes a lot harder to manage when it comes to level three stuff, assuming it's properly applied. Figure out what makes that individual player tick, get in their headspace (if you can), and go from there. If you can see where they're coming from as town, more power to you. If not, you know to start measuring rope - or at the very least, you know to ask them more stuff to get a better idea.
    Thank you for your thoughts. I found them useful.

    While I agree that analyzing people on the 3rd level is probably the most "pure" (for lack of a better term) way of judging alignment based on play in the 3 tiers I gave, I still think there is some benefit to the level to which you "zoom in" on people. Having multiple levels of analysis is a good way to get a fuller picture of a player as an individual.

    I also want to point out that I have historically primarily stuck to the 3rd level in my Mafia career and I think it is what I am best at (although I think a monkey could probably do the 1st level fairly well). Point being, I have thought about the question of "If I were to categorize players playstyles, how would I do that?" and this is what I came up with. Is it perfect? LOL, most likely no. But it IS an attempt to give a mediary level of analysis to reading people that borders between strictly behaviors and analyzing how people are thinking and I think this can be very helpful if done right. The idea here is to provide multiple levels of analysis to get a better understanding of someone's play.

    Lastly, I want to say that this whole idea of psychoanalysis is based on an individuals play in isolation of associations. I think associations can be very telling, but I put more trust in my ability to analyze individuals rather than groups personally.
    Retired

  18. ISO #18
    GOAT Tier brainbomb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Posts
    10,346
    Timezone
    UTC-11:00
    Community
    Webdiplomacy.net
    AKA
    Moth
    Gender
    I loved reading this and I see the effort you put forward in making this. I especially liked



    And finally, players who use Utility of Creativity and the Method of Psychoanalysis don’t really consider anything irrelevant in a game and are probably best at being themselves in a game regardless of if they are Town or Scum. They might not think they are fluff posting when everyone else does think they are. These types of players are the type to jump on any wagon at practically any time. They are unpredictable and that is what makes them excellent at generating content for the game. They convince Town to vote with them at key moments in the game such as close to deadline. They will probably try and start a Chinese Fire Drill on someone near End of Day if they are around and there hasn’t been a lynch yet. They really like to mix things up. Their greatest weakness is that they don’t really have a whole lot of meat and potatoes in their play and so their reasoning for their read are sometimes not very satisfying. Their greatest strength is in keeping the morale of Town high and generating lots of content for people to digest down the road. These players are usually a bast to play with if you don’t mind laughing… lol.

    People’s preference for different kinds of setups is something that may be interesting to analyze. Players whose Utility is in Creativity do not want what is "plain" whether they know it or not. They view such things as insignificant because there is not anything that is explicitly dramatic in the structure itself. Players whose Utility is in Structure would much rather play a setup that is at least somewhat predictable. A game that doesn’t have features of explicit drama built into the structure allows players to use the predictability of the setup to narrow their focus on the key things that they want to address. Power Roles are often a source of internal conflict within the setup. The more Town Power Roles you have, the more the Scum Power Roles are going to directly conflict with the Town Power Roles. The greater the conflict a game has by way of contrast between TPRs and Scum PRs produces an anticipation for all the players in the game, the more players have to keep their options open on the "main actors" (the PRs) until players have found the limit to the chaos [climax] and start to put the pieces together [resolution].
    I consider myself very creative and against the grain. However I also talk to much and overwhelm games with my tinfoiling.
    I guess it must be wanderlust or tryin' to get free
    From the good old faithful feelin' we once knew

  19. ISO #19
    Soul Reader Nancy Drew 39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    The 4th Wall
    Posts
    4,092
    Timezone
    UTC-04:00
    Community
    The 39 Steppes
    AKA
    The WOLF MAGNET
    Pronouns
    she/her/her/hers/herself
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 (#2)
    Interesting article!

    Also /in for quick's psychoanalysis profiling

    Also first
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy (#3)
    /in
    /in. . . . As in, 3rd time’s the charm. ^_^
    Last edited by Nancy Drew 39; June 3rd, 2018 at 05:22 PM.
    It is not necessary to accept everything as true, one must only accept it as necessary. ~Kafka

  20. ISO #20
    GOAT Tier brainbomb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Posts
    10,346
    Timezone
    UTC-11:00
    Community
    Webdiplomacy.net
    AKA
    Moth
    Gender
    nancy is impossible to mislynch and usually identifies at least one scum using relatively simple utility methods. I would not argue she is a high volume creative, but rather a very straight line to the bad guy approach. and its pretty scarily accurate
    I guess it must be wanderlust or tryin' to get free
    From the good old faithful feelin' we once knew

  21. ISO #21
    Soul Reader Quick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Filling The Void
    Posts
    4,487
    Timezone
    UTC-06:00
    Community
    Nomad, vagabond, call me what you will ♫
    AKA
    Quick
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by brainbomb (#18)
    I loved reading this and I see the effort you put forward in making this. I especially liked



    And finally, players who use Utility of Creativity and the Method of Psychoanalysis don’t really consider anything irrelevant in a game and are probably best at being themselves in a game regardless of if they are Town or Scum. They might not think they are fluff posting when everyone else does think they are. These types of players are the type to jump on any wagon at practically any time. They are unpredictable and that is what makes them excellent at generating content for the game. They convince Town to vote with them at key moments in the game such as close to deadline. They will probably try and start a Chinese Fire Drill on someone near End of Day if they are around and there hasn’t been a lynch yet. They really like to mix things up. Their greatest weakness is that they don’t really have a whole lot of meat and potatoes in their play and so their reasoning for their read are sometimes not very satisfying. Their greatest strength is in keeping the morale of Town high and generating lots of content for people to digest down the road. These players are usually a bast to play with if you don’t mind laughing… lol.

    People’s preference for different kinds of setups is something that may be interesting to analyze. Players whose Utility is in Creativity do not want what is "plain" whether they know it or not. They view such things as insignificant because there is not anything that is explicitly dramatic in the structure itself. Players whose Utility is in Structure would much rather play a setup that is at least somewhat predictable. A game that doesn’t have features of explicit drama built into the structure allows players to use the predictability of the setup to narrow their focus on the key things that they want to address. Power Roles are often a source of internal conflict within the setup. The more Town Power Roles you have, the more the Scum Power Roles are going to directly conflict with the Town Power Roles. The greater the conflict a game has by way of contrast between TPRs and Scum PRs produces an anticipation for all the players in the game, the more players have to keep their options open on the "main actors" (the PRs) until players have found the limit to the chaos [climax] and start to put the pieces together [resolution].
    I consider myself very creative and against the grain. However I also talk to much and overwhelm games with my tinfoiling.
    IDK for sure, but I think you are the first person who has self identified with this type.

    And thank you a million for liking my article.
    Last edited by Quick; June 3rd, 2018 at 07:25 PM.
    Retired

  22. ISO #22
    Soul Reader Quick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Filling The Void
    Posts
    4,487
    Timezone
    UTC-06:00
    Community
    Nomad, vagabond, call me what you will ♫
    AKA
    Quick
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Nancy Drew 39 (#19)
    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 (#2)
    Interesting article!

    Also /in for quick's psychoanalysis profiling

    Also first
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy (#3)
    /in
    /in. . . . As in, 3rd time’s the charm. ^_^
    Hmm...

    Multiple people requesting this here...

    I would like to say that if I DO Psychoanalyse you, it will be in private from here on out unless I am in a game with you or something special. IDK just firing from the hip here cuz not quite sure what to do with 3 different requests.
    Last edited by Quick; June 3rd, 2018 at 07:29 PM.
    Retired

  23. ISO #23

  24. ISO #24
    Amberguard Emberguard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    924
    Timezone
    UTC+11:00
    Community
    Neoseeker
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by shadow (#12)
    A player who fails to express emotions or refuses to spontaneously jump between wagons when the time is right is missing a huge amount of the tools at their disposal.
    Indeed. Which is something a burnt out player would struggle to do and something to factor into reads.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psalm 24
    3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
    4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
    5 He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

  25. ISO #25
    Soul Reader Quick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Filling The Void
    Posts
    4,487
    Timezone
    UTC-06:00
    Community
    Nomad, vagabond, call me what you will ♫
    AKA
    Quick
    Gender
    Six month bump.

    That's right, I'm bumping my own thread as a retired player.

    These things are kinda pointless honestly because I don't think people actually apply them.

    Last edited by Quick; April 10th, 2019 at 09:50 PM.
    Retired

  26. ISO #26
    Soul Reader AndrewGreve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    USA -West coast
    Posts
    3,831
    Timezone
    UTC-08:00
    Community
    2+2
    AKA
    AG
    Gender
    You need to create a Myer-Briggs Type Indicator equivalent test for people to self sort their mafia play-style/tendencies. The process may expand the 2x2 matrix and eliminate players complaining that none of the options explain them perfectly.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Keyboard Shortcuts

about us
Mafia Universe is a community hub for people who enjoy playing the forum variant of Mafia (also known as Werewolf). We offer fully automated Mafia games and a wide variety of customized features crafted to optimize your game experience. We also proudly host the Internet's only database of Mafia/Werewolf communities.

We hope you stick around!
Role of the Day
Command Based Robot

The Command Based Robot will each night perform two actions: They will decide which of several actions available to them that they wish to use that night, and they will additionally select a player that gets the choice of who the action should be used on that night. The Command Based Robot may not self-target.