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Thread: Mod Team Q&A

  1. ISO #1051
    Wants It More LanMisa's Avatar
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    I see a problem with regards to user privacy in case mods get a long list of former behaviour issues. But I think that a general colour coding might be a compromise... possibly. It gives the hosts freedom to decide how much disruption they risk to have in their game.

    What could be problematic though is that people might just generally blacklist everybody on those lists (or at least starting from a certain colour...) which means that those are probably never allowed to play and thus redeem themselves.... and those would be indirectly "signup banned", not by the mods, but by the hosts...

    I see nothing preventing hosts to make and share their own lists in that regard where they pile up examples of misconduct in their own opinion. It would just require a centralised place for hosts to access. Like a Google Doc.
    Last edited by LanMisa; January 22nd, 2019 at 07:24 AM.

  2. ISO #1052
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#1050)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#1044)
    I think the entire point is that blacklisting is more for behavior that is *not* prohibited by the rules but that people dislike.
    Actually, this is explicitly untrue:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman View Post
    Moderators and admins are keeping track of subbing and activity patterns, and if someone has a history of subbing out for poor reasons or not meeting the minimum activity requirements, they will be banned from signing up for games.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman View Post
    Note that it is permitted for Game Hosts to bar you from their games if you repeatedly abandon your commitments.
    (lol my power went out... hopefully by the time I can submit this post the conversation won't have moved on too far)

    The intention is clearly for blacklisting and regular moderating to coexist.

    But either way, the point remains that hosts aren't in a position to actually know all of the details of everyone's history on the site. Mods are going to be much better informed about those things even when they don't involve rule violations that require action. Plus, mods apparently give out tons of warnings before taking action even in the case of real problems, and hosts have no way to know about it.
    think we... switched topics a little

    it's difficult to talk about that one because I can't get into specific cases, obviously. the earlier conversation was about (i thought) things that were outright within the rules?

    both are valid reasons to blacklist, i personally was talking about ones not against the rules at all because that was where the conversation started

    in terms of stuff like flaking, blacklisting is basically "you're allowed to have higher standards/etc for this than we do/assess it differently/etc". same as anything else, really, but in a more linear way in this case i suppose

    i think a possible disconnect here is that "warnings" and even lower level stuff (for lack of having replaced this word yet, coachings) are action. they are moderation. they happen because a rule was broken, generally. the other kind of things that were being talked about (read: annoying play, play interpretable as gamethrowing but without malicious intent, etc) are just not things that get moderated, or tracked, at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  3. ISO #1053
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1049)
    I think that Soah is basically asking: Is there a way for a host to get some general information from the mods about a player on whether they are going to be "problematic" in some kind of way and thus worth blacklisting? Like possibly a green/blue/yellow/orange/red scale in terms of how often that players behaviour disrupted games in the past.
    well, this literally doesn't exist in any form for [non-rulebreaking and not even borderline but game-disruptive behavior ie bad fps that people read as gamethrowing, obnoxious style, etc]. it just doesn't. we don't track that.

    and it doesn't really exist in any form that could easily be turned into such a scale for actual moderated behavior either. like that's not how our logs really work. they're a list of actions and/or noteworthy behavior with links to relevant threads.

    i also have a significant philosophical issue with it on that wide of a scale, for this kind of context. i'm having trouble articulating it, but there's more to a person's behavior than what you're describing. time since, concentration, reaction, etc. and most instances of moderated behavior are not actually individually something i would call "disruptive", exactly, though you may be using that word differently than i am.

    and also it's just, way way more information than i'd ever be comfortable sharing about moderation. feels shamey.
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  4. ISO #1054
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1051)
    I see a problem with regards to user privacy in case mods get a long list of former behaviour issues. Buthe I think that a general colour coding might be a compromise... possibly. It gives the hosts freedom to decide how much disruption they risk to have in their game.

    What could be problematic though is that people might just generally blacklist everybody on those lists (or at least starting from a certain colour...) which means that those are probably never allowed to play and thus redeem themselves.... and those would be indirectly "signup banned", not by the mods, but by the hosts...

    I see nothing preventing hosts to make and share their own lists in that regard where they pile up examples of misconduct in their own opinion. It would just require a centralised place for hosts to access. Like a Google Doc.
    level of history is honestly a huge amount of information to give about every person or w/e

    and like i said, disruption is a super weird word to apply to most minor behavioral issues to me, there's also a bunch of logistical issues even if we did want to do this
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  5. ISO #1055
    Calculated. bopolis's Avatar
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    Lissa you seem to be up late, I’m concerned about you riding on your motorcycle when overtired
    Cow - Today at 1:02 AM
    This EoD has given me a deep and profound understanding regarding what it might be liking playing with me when i do stupid $#@! as villager.

  6. ISO #1056
    Wants It More LanMisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#1054)
    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1051)
    I see a problem with regards to user privacy in case mods get a long list of former behaviour issues. Buthe I think that a general colour coding might be a compromise... possibly. It gives the hosts freedom to decide how much disruption they risk to have in their game.

    What could be problematic though is that people might just generally blacklist everybody on those lists (or at least starting from a certain colour...) which means that those are probably never allowed to play and thus redeem themselves.... and those would be indirectly "signup banned", not by the mods, but by the hosts...

    I see nothing preventing hosts to make and share their own lists in that regard where they pile up examples of misconduct in their own opinion. It would just require a centralised place for hosts to access. Like a Google Doc.
    level of history is honestly a huge amount of information to give about every person or w/e

    and like i said, disruption is a super weird word to apply to most minor behavioral issues to me, there's also a bunch of logistical issues even if we did want to do this
    Don't mind me, I am just rambling to myself. And yeah, I see the conflict of interest between hosts wanting to run unproblematic and fun games on one side and user privacy on the other side. ..

  7. ISO #1057
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    I'm kind of lumping everything together because in mind, problematic behavior is problematic behavior regardless of how it aligns with the written rules. In Boquise's example, he's talking about a player who "makes the game unpleasant for the other players" by doing things which are unequivocally bad (being obnoxious, refusing to join wolf chat). While it might be true that technically no rules were explicitly broken, I'd still expect mods to deal with a person like this using some of the various catch-all rules in the CoC, especially if it's an ongoing issue.

    I fully support the rights of hosts to blacklist whoever they want from their games. My concern is when the mods are essentially asking game hosts to step up and serve as de facto mods but without having access to any of the information that the mods have. Without information, hosts aren't going to do anything. And that's totally fine, unless the mods are depending on the hosts to do something.

    I was using the flaking example because it was the most notable thing that happened in the games that I hosted, but the principle is generally the same for any type of problem. It's all well and good for individual hosts to be allowed to have stricter standards than the site as a whole, but it's a moot point if the hosts don't actually know where the players fall on the behavioral spectrum. If the mods want to deal with all behavioral/rule issues in private then they can't expect community policing. The two approaches are incompatible.

  8. ISO #1058
    Wants It More LanMisa's Avatar
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    Bottom line of what Soah said: Black listing doesn't work if we don't know who should be blacklisted.

  9. ISO #1059
    Manasi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1058)
    Bottom line of what Soah said: Black listing doesn't work if we don't know who should be blacklisted.
    Okay so this was more of my worry when the blacklist was rolled out. There should literally never be a “general” blacklist for all games. That’s ridiculous. If someone should be blacklisted from every game then they probably have other issues that mods should deal with.

    Blacklists are to be used for individual hosts to curate their games to their liking - not for the entire site to silently turn their back on someone deemed “undesirable” to play from a few people.

    That was one of my points of the blacklist being problematic. If hosts start discussing who’s on each other’s blacklists then at some point the other person comes to the conclusion of “hey... maybe I should put them on mine too,” and that’s how you drive someone who just wanted to play mafia out of a community.

    RE: hosts not knowing what mods know, this isn’t really the point. It should be based on the hosts prior experience with the person and not the player’s experience in all of their games on the site (how many times they’ve been reported, for what, etc). If someone low posts consistently or is kinda mean but stays within the rules, THAT’S what the blacklist is for. It’s not to act as some sort of citizens arrest from the site.

    Lmk if I’m misunderstanding something.
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  10. ISO #1060
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#1057)
    I fully support the rights of hosts to blacklist whoever they want from their games. My concern is when the mods are essentially asking game hosts to step up and serve as de facto mods but without having access to any of the information that the mods have.
    i really dont think this was asked of anyone tbh

    Quote as many 4 year old posts as you want but i dont think this is the intention for black lists at all. I think Boq's post made it sound like less of a grey area than he intended maybe?

    Black lists are for picky S.O.B's like me with high standards.

    Personally, MU has gotten too big for blacklists, i use impromptu white lists now.

    Do i know this person who just /in'd?
    If not, does somebody i trust know this person?
    If not, do i trust their word that they are good people?

    Works great, and is more inclusive than you'd think. Bit of extra work on my part tho.
    Last edited by Apoc; January 22nd, 2019 at 08:34 AM.

  11. ISO #1061
    Special Agent tbh Boquise's Avatar
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    Maybe I am disconnected with our (mods') expectation of hosts with the blacklist. Iirc it was launched during a hectic period in my life where everything is now a messy blurb, but this is how I view it nonetheless:
    We do not expect hosts to go out of their way with the blacklist, to become de facto mods. We don't want the blacklist to be a tool hosts are obligated to use. We encourage hosts to use it, but at the end of the day it is each host's individual decision.

    It is more or less that the hosts are free to use it to avoid users they personally don't want in their games. Obnoxious was an example of behaviour I used since it is so broad and is not always something we can moderate (like you can be obnoxious in so many ways, and what's obnoxious to one person might be chill for another). To answer Apoc, yeh I didn't mean to make the blacklists sound less grey. They are a grey area to me. I pretty much agree with Manasi's example on hosts' experience and that they curate their host list tbh
    Last edited by Boquise; January 22nd, 2019 at 08:50 AM.

  12. ISO #1062
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1060)
    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#1057)
    I fully support the rights of hosts to blacklist whoever they want from their games. My concern is when the mods are essentially asking game hosts to step up and serve as de facto mods but without having access to any of the information that the mods have.
    i really dont think this was asked of anyone tbh

    Quote as many 4 year old posts as you want but i dont think this is the intention for black lists at all.
    What if I quote a post from yesterday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#1022)
    If a player has a history of, say, selfish FPS that $#@!s the town over, that's something that needs to be moderated by the community in the form of blacklisting them from games.
    That's putting the obligation on game hosts to know the history of the players in order to make decisions about whether to allow them to participate. The procedure for dealing with problematic players is to file a report and then let the mods worry about it. That system is not designed to facilitate community moderating. Boquise argues that it's human nature to gossip and therefore information will spread regardless. But that's merely arguing that maybe community policing can happen despite the system inhibiting it. If a player's behavior has been troublesome enough that the mods are hoping that hosts will step up and blacklist them, then that's placing an unfair burden on hosts.

    Edit: After seeing Boquise's last post, I don't think there's anything left to discuss on this subject.
    Last edited by soah; January 22nd, 2019 at 09:01 AM.

  13. ISO #1063
    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    I rather think the simple thing is to just see it as it comes and judge it for yourself then blacklist the person once you find it

    Otherwise you are asking mods to make other guidelines by which they will track you that are more strict than the actual rules and they'll spread them to other people which seems like something most probably wouldn't be a fan of.
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  14. ISO #1064
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#1063)
    I rather think the simple thing is to just see it as it comes and judge it for yourself then blacklist the person once you find it

    Otherwise you are asking mods to make other guidelines by which they will track you that are more strict than the actual rules and they'll spread them to other people which seems like something most probably wouldn't be a fan of.
    On 2+2 I reported a player for gamethrowing and a mod questioned the player about their actions in the postgame discussion. On MU I reported a player for gamethrowing and the mods did their black box routine. Which system better equips me to curate a blacklist?

  15. ISO #1065
    Manasi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#1064)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#1063)
    I rather think the simple thing is to just see it as it comes and judge it for yourself then blacklist the person once you find it

    Otherwise you are asking mods to make other guidelines by which they will track you that are more strict than the actual rules and they'll spread them to other people which seems like something most probably wouldn't be a fan of.
    On 2+2 I reported a player for gamethrowing and a mod questioned the player about their actions in the postgame discussion. On MU I reported a player for gamethrowing and the mods did their black box routine. Which system better equips me to curate a blacklist?
    Either? In both situations you experienced someone gamerhrowing. Those experiences are grounds to make it to your personal blacklist. If they’ve been talked to by mods and promised to do better, would that change your mind?

    I think the player themselves are perfectly capable of reaching out to you and explaining that.
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    Take note MU the AIDS bar of 2019 is being set HIGH
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    i need more manasi


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  16. ISO #1066
    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#1064)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#1063)
    I rather think the simple thing is to just see it as it comes and judge it for yourself then blacklist the person once you find it

    Otherwise you are asking mods to make other guidelines by which they will track you that are more strict than the actual rules and they'll spread them to other people which seems like something most probably wouldn't be a fan of.
    On 2+2 I reported a player for gamethrowing and a mod questioned the player about their actions in the postgame discussion. On MU I reported a player for gamethrowing and the mods did their black box routine. Which system better equips me to curate a blacklist?
    It exists for your own judgement pretty sure. In either case you can use your own judgement on the matter so... either
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  17. ISO #1067
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1049)
    I think that Soah is basically asking: Is there a way for a host to get some general information from the mods about a player on whether they are going to be "problematic" in some kind of way and thus worth blacklisting? Like possibly a green/blue/yellow/orange/red scale in terms of how often that players behaviour disrupted games in the past.
    oh god oh no

    the mods are very correct at never doing anything even close to this

    hosts should give every player a chance before personally deciding to bar that player from their games

    IMO

    $#@! judging a player before they have ever played your games, hell no

  18. ISO #1068
    Loansharking blot test Newcomb's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manasi (#1059)
    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1058)
    Bottom line of what Soah said: Black listing doesn't work if we don't know who should be blacklisted.
    Okay so this was more of my worry when the blacklist was rolled out. There should literally never be a “general” blacklist for all games. That’s ridiculous. If someone should be blacklisted from every game then they probably have other issues that mods should deal with.

    Blacklists are to be used for individual hosts to curate their games to their liking - not for the entire site to silently turn their back on someone deemed “undesirable” to play from a few people.

    That was one of my points of the blacklist being problematic. If hosts start discussing who’s on each other’s blacklists then at some point the other person comes to the conclusion of “hey... maybe I should put them on mine too,” and that’s how you drive someone who just wanted to play mafia out of a community.

    RE: hosts not knowing what mods know, this isn’t really the point. It should be based on the hosts prior experience with the person and not the player’s experience in all of their games on the site (how many times they’ve been reported, for what, etc). If someone low posts consistently or is kinda mean but stays within the rules, THAT’S what the blacklist is for. It’s not to act as some sort of citizens arrest from the site.

    Lmk if I’m misunderstanding something.
    Yeah this is essentially it.

    Blacklists are a partial answer to the question "what can I do about [play that I don't like but is still within the rules on MU]?" It's an additional tool in the toolbox.

    It's not meant to be psudeo-moderation.

    @soah

    If a player has a history of, say, selfish FPS that $#@!s the town over, that's something that needs to be moderated by the community in the form of blacklisting them from games.
    I probably chose my words poorly here by using the word "needs" and "moderated."

    Let me try that again:

    If a player has s history of, say, selfish FPS that $#@!s the town over, that's something that the community at large can address. One way of doing that is by hosts blacklisting them from games.

    Anyway, I'm going to hold off on closing this while there's still discussion. When things idle out, I'll close it.

  19. ISO #1069
    Wants It More LanMisa's Avatar
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    Is GH going to be replaced internally, externally or both?

  20. ISO #1070
    Tunnel King Phighter's Avatar
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    Will mod team applications ever be a thing again, or is it like an internal system?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#233)
    So here's the deal, Champ.

    1. Phighter's $#@!ing with you.

  21. ISO #1071
    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
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    I mean, the blacklist isn't a new concept, is it? On my home forum, the community basically has certain players who everyone knows are assholes and/or play against wincon. Every time a host puts up signups, they have to decide if they're gonna keep those assholes out or not. And people advocate for or against it. "Give them a chance" "No, keep them out" Aka, the community policing itself. It's the same thing here, isn't it? For players who haven't explicitly broken rules, the mods can't do anything, but the community can do what every other mafia community does. Or are you suggesting that due to the nature of the site (mafia only), that dynamic should change?

  22. ISO #1072
    tokophobe lute's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1069)
    Is GH going to be replaced internally, externally or both?
    Can you elaborate on what you mean by internally and externally @LanMisa?

    He's keeping his organs but not his clothes.
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  23. ISO #1073
    tokophobe lute's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phighter (#1070)
    Will mod team applications ever be a thing again, or is it like an internal system?
    I think it was always an internal system and is still a thing, but the purples might know more.
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  24. ISO #1074
    Wants It More LanMisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#1072)
    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1069)
    Is GH going to be replaced internally, externally or both?
    Can you elaborate on what you mean by internally and externally @LanMisa?

    He's keeping his organs but not his clothes.
    Good to know!

    Will he replaced by a new addition to the staff team? Will somebody from the current team take over his purple position? Will there be a chain reaction of people getting promoted? And most important: Why did you let a chance slip away to harvest him for his organs?

  25. ISO #1075
    tokophobe lute's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1074)
    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#1072)
    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1069)
    Is GH going to be replaced internally, externally or both?
    Can you elaborate on what you mean by internally and externally @LanMisa?

    He's keeping his organs but not his clothes.
    Good to know!

    Will he replaced by a new addition to the staff team? Will somebody from the current team take over his purple position? Will there be a chain reaction of people getting promoted? And most important: Why did you let a chance slip away to harvest him for his organs?
    If he's replaced (up to him and Amy and Newcomb) he'll be replaced by a current blue. That should be about the only shift. I don't think we're desperate to fill in the blue gap (not saying we wouldn't, but we aren't concerned about the gap existing presently) so unlikely to see a new face in the immediate future.

    Also his liver is a total calamity, there was no way we could take it.
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  26. ISO #1076
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phighter (#1070)
    Will mod team applications ever be a thing again, or is it like an internal system?
    I mean, you can always apply
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  27. ISO #1077
    Wants It More LanMisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#1075)
    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1074)
    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#1072)
    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1069)
    Is GH going to be replaced internally, externally or both?
    Can you elaborate on what you mean by internally and externally @LanMisa?

    He's keeping his organs but not his clothes.
    Good to know!

    Will he replaced by a new addition to the staff team? Will somebody from the current team take over his purple position? Will there be a chain reaction of people getting promoted? And most important: Why did you let a chance slip away to harvest him for his organs?
    If he's replaced (up to him and Amy and Newcomb) he'll be replaced by a current blue. That should be about the only shift. I don't think we're desperate to fill in the blue gap (not saying we wouldn't, but we aren't concerned about the gap existing presently) so unlikely to see a new face in the immediate future.

    Also his liver is a total calamity, there was no way we could take it.
    If you see a gap in the current mod team, why don't you try to fill it? Lack of candidates, lack of time, lack of space in the mod nudes channel?

    Also, while I agree that his liver might be broken, his kidneys are still good!....probably.

  28. ISO #1078
    tokophobe lute's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1077)
    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#1075)
    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1074)
    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#1072)
    Can you elaborate on what you mean by internally and externally @LanMisa?

    He's keeping his organs but not his clothes.
    Good to know!

    Will he replaced by a new addition to the staff team? Will somebody from the current team take over his purple position? Will there be a chain reaction of people getting promoted? And most important: Why did you let a chance slip away to harvest him for his organs?
    If he's replaced (up to him and Amy and Newcomb) he'll be replaced by a current blue. That should be about the only shift. I don't think we're desperate to fill in the blue gap (not saying we wouldn't, but we aren't concerned about the gap existing presently) so unlikely to see a new face in the immediate future.

    Also his liver is a total calamity, there was no way we could take it.
    If you see a gap in the current mod team, why don't you try to fill it? Lack of candidates, lack of time, lack of space in the mod nudes channel?

    Also, while I agree that his liver might be broken, his kidneys are still good!....probably.
    Well it's not really a gap at all in the strictest sense. We don't have a quota of mods we need to keep filled, we just need however many mods we need. Right now we're not totally drained constantly so there's not really going to be a gap to speak of.
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  29. ISO #1079
    FRÖÖTLÖÖPS teehee UwU iaafr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#1076)
    I mean, you can always apply
    this post would come off better without "i mean" imo

    maybe with an "actually" instead

  30. ISO #1080
    User title goes here. Voxxicus's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#1079)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#1076)
    I mean, you can always apply
    this post would come off better without "i mean" imo

    maybe with an "actually" instead
    The sentiment intended was "anyone that wishes to can apply, and though we don't have a glaring need for a new moderator currently, they'll still be considered either for now or in the future".

  31. ISO #1081
    Wants It More LanMisa's Avatar
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    I think that IAAFR's point was that one sounds inviting to do so while the other sounds rather neutral. Like, do what you want.

  32. ISO #1082
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give town rand Dp101's Avatar Flake Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1081)
    I think that IAAFR's point was that one sounds inviting to do so while the other sounds rather neutral. Like, do what you want.
    TBH "Actually", to me, feels more condescending. Like it's presenting the option as something that should have been obvious to anyone. Things read differently to different people.

  33. ISO #1083
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    lmfao @ this convo

  34. ISO #1084
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give town rand Dp101's Avatar Flake Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy (#1083)
    lmfao @ this convo
    I mean I'm not going to claim it's the most vital thing to ever be discussed in the Q&A, but I don't think it's irrelevant either. Part of the issue is statements of mods coming off differently to mods and users, and when there's a case where people actually state concrete things about the tone of something one way or another, it provides a valuable opportunity to compare exactly how perception varies between users and mods, and within each group too. If neither group actually comments on how things read to them, the disconnect will just remain.

  35. ISO #1085
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dp101 (#1084)
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy (#1083)
    lmfao @ this convo
    I mean I'm not going to claim it's the most vital thing to ever be discussed in the Q&A, but I don't think it's irrelevant either. Part of the issue is statements of mods coming off differently to mods and users, and when there's a case where people actually state concrete things about the tone of something one way or another, it provides a valuable opportunity to compare exactly how perception varies between users and mods, and within each group too. If neither group actually comments on how things read to them, the disconnect will just remain.
    this post would come off better without "i mean" imo

    maybe with an "actually" instead

  36. ISO #1086
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give town rand Dp101's Avatar Flake Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy (#1085)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dp101 (#1084)
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy (#1083)
    lmfao @ this convo
    I mean I'm not going to claim it's the most vital thing to ever be discussed in the Q&A, but I don't think it's irrelevant either. Part of the issue is statements of mods coming off differently to mods and users, and when there's a case where people actually state concrete things about the tone of something one way or another, it provides a valuable opportunity to compare exactly how perception varies between users and mods, and within each group too. If neither group actually comments on how things read to them, the disconnect will just remain.
    this post would come off better without "i mean" imo

    maybe with an "actually" instead
    I can't believe you've done this.

  37. ISO #1087
    User title goes here. Voxxicus's Avatar Moderator
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    I've had a couple people recently express a desire to help, either because they are a masochist or because they genuinely care about the community and want to know what they can do to make it a better place. Or something like that.

    Like, realistically the biggest thing is to play games, participate in community and community events, and to use the report button. I promise that every single report gets looked at by at least the majority of the team, if not all of us, and that even if something looks obvious, we don't have eyes on every single game, on every single thread, every single post.

    We've overhauled our logging process so that even stuff that isn't strictly actionable gets logged for future reference, to establish a pattern of behavior. Don't worry about feeling like you're wasting our time, we need reports to be able to do our jobs and stay on top of potential issues within community. It's part of why we have some moderators who don't play a ton of games (hi, Voxx) - that if we're in a game, we can't access the reports, nor talk about reports on ongoing games, and a lot of the time stuff can be time sensitive.

    No, not every report will be deemed actionable. Even if you're told something isn't actionable, don't let it keep you from reporting a similar thing in the future - especially if it's from the same player. A pattern of behavior can be actionable (see: rule 10), and we can talk to the user about it.

    Unfortunately, sometimes players are unpleasant fully within the allowable rules, but that's where the blacklist feature comes into play, as well as community policing like just... not just signing up for games with people you know you won't enjoy playing with.

    On a personal level, I've wrestled with this kind of thing, but ultimately I don't think it's our job to make everyone like each other, or enjoy playing with each other. As long as people make a good faith effort to play the game and follow the rules, different playstyles and levels of aggression are allowed, and sometimes those playstyles will clash. That's mafia.

    I'm not really sure where I was going with this. Uh.

    Oh right, ways to help.

    Reporting is the biggest thing, along with actually playing in games and participating in the community - be the change you want to see, and all that $#@!.

    In terms of actual community thing, we have like, Walrus, Paints, Sheeps, and other non-mafia games - I know I personally have been starting to play in some Sheeps and was surprised how fun they are.

    The database is a work in progress that... frankly if you really care about it and want to help out in some capacity, like helping to input the 1726 missing games, contact Makaze and maybe something can be worked out. It's an extremely daunting endeavor, not going to pretend it isn't, but it's a place where help could be had.

    And of course applying for staff positions (either for back end site modding, discord modding, greens, whatever) is perfectly fine - maybe there are people we assumed weren't interested that actually are, or that sell us on what they'd bring to the table. Even if there's no need for a new member right now, it is on the table for when there is a need.

    I lost my way somewhere in this post, and not fully sure if I ever found it, since I started rambling with the concept of "multiple people have asked what they could do to make the site better", and it just...went this way.

    tl;dr - use the report button, and be the kind of person you want others to be. Or something cheesy like that.

  38. ISO #1088
    User title goes here. Voxxicus's Avatar Moderator
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    Maybe that's an answer that didn't have a question attached to it, but I'm taking it as something asked to me out of this thread and answering it here!

    Maybe it helps someone.

    Maybe it's just helping me procrastinate getting back to work.

    Either way, the only thing lost is the time spent reading the first 2 lines before going 'tl;dr'.

  39. ISO #1089
    Wants It More LanMisa's Avatar
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    Staff team applications are always welcome, even when we are not activrly looking for new members. All applications will be thoroughly examined and you will get a personalised feedback from us once we finished evaluating it.

    - Just an example on how to write this more inviting in my opinion.

  40. ISO #1090
    Wants It More LanMisa's Avatar
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    Also, I am aware that this isn't the biggest problem right now, but I thought that this might still help. Possibly maybe.

  41. ISO #1091
    See you at the top! SmartBomb's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1089)
    Staff team applications are always welcome, even when we are not activrly looking for new members. All applications will be thoroughly examined and you will get a personalised feedback from us once we finished evaluating it.

    - Just an example on how to write this more inviting in my opinion.
    If you want my opinion on this statement it severely undercuts the identity of the person making the post and it's kinda demeaning for the modteam to all adopt one single style. It's also not inviting tbh because if this is the standard of posting I would have to be as a moderator... it would require me to carefully analyse my posting in such a way that it's probably just a full-time job, and not the fun one either.

    Given that the last time this Q&A was opened one of the most controversial statements was moderators not finding the job enjoyable I feel like at least not feeling harrowed by what we have to write is something at least you all understand is something that we're probably not going to budge on.

    We're not academics, we're volunteers. More to the point I feel like this adds to the pretty awful image on both ends that the modteam is a faceless amalgamation of people with one group statement. There's being professional and there's sounding like an automated answering machine.

    In general this conversation sounds like you want me to post like my default pre-MU wolfing style, which is to not post at all because I get terrified that I get caught for little changes of phrases. While it's true that I won't get caught by posting like 5 times (and this is actually a lie because I get caught anyways), I also post 5 times instead of 100 and that mindset is incredibly unenjoyable. Why am I applying wolfing styles to moderation anyways? I'm not a wolf.

    To be clear, I think we can work on tonal problems and I've received a bit of feedback privately with regards to specific examples that I appreciate, but this sort of thing is something I think most of the team is in agreement that if we're talking about single word changes it's kind of maddening for us and I hope you understand.

    "SB you asked for specific examples of how moderators are condescending and they're giving it to you why are you like this"

    I mean, this is why we need these examples, because tonal issues is a wide-reaching area that we deserve to be flexible about. But this is not something I can be happy about, and if I'm wrong about this feel free to talk about it, perhaps I'm very wrong about my viewpoint.
    Last edited by SmartBomb; January 23rd, 2019 at 05:50 AM.

  42. ISO #1092
    Wants It More LanMisa's Avatar
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    SmartBomb Senpai, it appears that you didn't see the "example" part of the sentence. In no way do I expect the team to suddenly take over a fixed style. This style was obviously my own and I doubt that anybody would just start to copy and paste it.

    Nonetheless, I think that you can see a strong difference in tone if you compare this with Lissas statement in this example. I went out of my way to invite people to apply. Lissa just dropped the possibility. Depending on whether you actually WANT people to apply or not, one general approach is better than the other in how to express that. If you are full, write like Lissa. If you ain't, make sure to write it more aligning to my own.

    Also, I am sorry to say this, but being a mod you ARE a representative. What you say and how you say it will at times reflect on the whole staff. You might not like this, and I totally get you, but you are a face of the moderator team.
    Last edited by LanMisa; January 23rd, 2019 at 06:28 AM.

  43. ISO #1093
    Hello everyone and welcome to my Mafia University article on how to employ common wolf tactics.

  44. ISO #1094
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voxxicus (#1087)
    We've overhauled our logging process so that even stuff that isn't strictly actionable gets logged for future reference, to establish a pattern of behavior
    Wow

    Way to sell Newcomb & Lissa out


    Soah is gonna have a field day
    Last edited by Apoc; January 23rd, 2019 at 06:30 AM.

  45. ISO #1095
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1094)
    Quote Originally Posted by Voxxicus (#1087)
    We've overhauled our logging process so that even stuff that isn't strictly actionable gets logged for future reference, to establish a pattern of behavior
    Wow

    Way to sell Newcomb & Lissa out


    Soah is gonna have a field day
    the kind of things that conversation was originally about still fall mostly under the realm of not logged at all
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  46. ISO #1096
    tokophobe lute's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1094)
    Quote Originally Posted by Voxxicus (#1087)
    We've overhauled our logging process so that even stuff that isn't strictly actionable gets logged for future reference, to establish a pattern of behavior
    Wow

    Way to sell Newcomb & Lissa out


    Soah is gonna have a field day
    We'll keep tabs on people getting rowdy and whatnot but won't log people poorly FPSing and playing like crap.

    That is what the database is for.
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    You don't need a reason to help people.


  47. ISO #1097
    See you at the top! SmartBomb's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1092)
    SmartBomb Senpai, it appears that you didn't see the "example" part of the sentence. In no way do I expect the team to suddenly take over a fixed style. This style was obviously my own and I doubt that anybody would just start to copy and paste it.

    Nonetheless, I think that you can see a strong difference in tone if you compare this with Lissas statement in this example. I went out of my way to invite people to apply. Lissa just dropped the possibility. Depending on whether you actually WANT people to apply or not, one general approach is better than the other in how to express that. If you are full, write like Lissa. If you ain't, make sure to write it more aligning to my own.

    Also, I am sorry to say this, but being a mod you ARE a representative. What you say and how you say it will at times reflect on the whole staff. You might not like this, and I totally get you, but you are a face of the modding team.
    So what you're saying is that Lissa addressed it properly? We are kind of not looking for new moderators (although I'm sure the head mods and Amy would take any sort of application into consideration), as lute said, so, Lissa structured her sentence properly. If you're rewriting it in such a way to make it more inviting I don't see the point for this situation because we're... trying to be neutral instead of inviting.

    Being a mod means I'm a representative yes. It doesn't mean I have to write out things that are lengthy and cover every available option, which is what you are suggesting. Ironically that's my own writing style but I'll defend more straightforward writing styles like Lissa's, short, to the point, and clear. And each writing style is better for different situations. And it doesn't avoid the point that yes while I'm a representative the sort of thing you're asking for in terms of microadjustments isn't really part of what a moderator needs to be doing.

    Since coming onto the team I've started to slowly delineate what my responsibilities are as a moderator. Not because of arbitrary rules or site philosophy but just, things that are inherent to the job and are just out of reach because if I was to take that responsibility I'd be quitting in a week and I should not be responsible for carrying the forum. This is going to fall into one of those categories.

    Probably the biggest point is that Phighter's quesiton was one sentence. Lissa responded a simple question with a simple answer. It was short, quick, and if it really required a lot of thought to construct a reply I'm a bit deflated especially considering the point of the Mod Q&A thread was to be more freeform and chill.

  48. ISO #1098
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#1053)
    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1049)
    I think that Soah is basically asking: Is there a way for a host to get some general information from the mods about a player on whether they are going to be "problematic" in some kind of way and thus worth blacklisting? Like possibly a green/blue/yellow/orange/red scale in terms of how often that players behaviour disrupted games in the past.
    well, this literally doesn't exist in any form for [non-rulebreaking and not even borderline but game-disruptive behavior ie bad fps that people read as gamethrowing, obnoxious style, etc]. it just doesn't. we don't track that.

    and it doesn't really exist in any form that could easily be turned into such a scale for actual moderated behavior either. like that's not how our logs really work. they're a list of actions and/or noteworthy behavior with links to relevant threads.

    i also have a significant philosophical issue with it on that wide of a scale, for this kind of context. i'm having trouble articulating it, but there's more to a person's behavior than what you're describing. time since, concentration, reaction, etc. and most instances of moderated behavior are not actually individually something i would call "disruptive", exactly, though you may be using that word differently than i am.

    and also it's just, way way more information than i'd ever be comfortable sharing about moderation. feels shamey.
    Ok i guess she never implied that only actionable stuff was logged. And she's talking about bad play more than bad behaviour.


    But non-actionable things being logged seems like a new revelation for this thread all the same...
    Last edited by Apoc; January 23rd, 2019 at 06:40 AM.

  49. ISO #1099
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#1096)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1094)
    Quote Originally Posted by Voxxicus (#1087)
    We've overhauled our logging process so that even stuff that isn't strictly actionable gets logged for future reference, to establish a pattern of behavior
    Wow

    Way to sell Newcomb & Lissa out


    Soah is gonna have a field day
    We'll keep tabs on people getting rowdy and whatnot but won't log people poorly FPSing and playing like crap.

    That is what the database is for.
    Yes i just figured it out, thx lute

  50. ISO #1100
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#1092)
    SmartBomb Senpai, it appears that you didn't see the "example" part of the sentence. In no way do I expect the team to suddenly take over a fixed style. This style was obviously my own and I doubt that anybody would just start to copy and paste it.

    Nonetheless, I think that you can see a strong difference in tone if you compare this with Lissas statement in this example. I went out of my way to invite people to apply. Lissa just dropped the possibility. Depending on whether you actually WANT people to apply or not, one general approach is better than the other in how to express that. If you are full, write like Lissa. If you ain't, make sure to write it more aligning to my own.

    Also, I am sorry to say this, but being a mod you ARE a representative. What you say and how you say it will at times reflect on the whole staff. You might not like this, and I totally get you, but you are a face of the moderator team.
    I was intentionally being neutral about it. Applications are always open if people are interested in applying, like that’s just the system, but we are not currently actively looking, shorthanded, etc.

    I was absolutely not going for “going out of my way to invite people to apply” and that was by design, and something I stand by.

    There’s isn’t reslly such a thing as “full”, there’s not a defined limit or anything. There’s always a possibility we could be open to someone being added if they’re interested and compatible. But we are not actively looking and not conveying that we were was kinda intended.
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

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