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Thread: Mod Team Q&A

  1. ISO #801
    Player A and Player B are in a game, Player A is insulting Player B after a stressful argument. Nothing too egregious but still a personal attack over the line. Which do you feel is the most successful response for Player B, 1) Ignore Player A, and quietly report player. 2) Tell the player that you feel he went over the line, and then report the post. 3) Wait until after the game and talk with said player in a less stressful situation, if you feel he is sorry and over reacted, leave it alone. If he isn't regretting the mistake, then report and ignore if needed.

    What are the pros and cons to each of the responses in your opinion

  2. ISO #802
    Tunnel King Phighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by For Reports (#802)
    Player A and Player B are in a game, Player A is insulting Player B after a stressful argument. Nothing too egregious but still a personal attack over the line. Which do you feel is the most successful response for Player B, 1) Ignore Player A, and quietly report player. 2) Tell the player that you feel he went over the line, and then report the post. 3) Wait until after the game and talk with said player in a less stressful situation, if you feel he is sorry and over reacted, leave it alone. If he isn't regretting the mistake, then report and ignore if needed.

    What are the pros and cons to each of the responses in your opinion
    I know I'm not a mod, but:

    I report things immediately now and then try to shoulder the load/get through. Telling someone you reported them is actually against the rules, I think. Granted there's a percentage that come out as no action taken, but reporting people is the best and should probably be done during the game.

    I'll take apologies in post, sure, but I find that if someone does something that you should report someone over, you should just report them and worry later.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#233)
    So here's the deal, Champ.

    1. Phighter's fucking with you.

  3. ISO #803
    Quote Originally Posted by Phighter (#802)
    Quote Originally Posted by For Reports (#802)
    Player A and Player B are in a game, Player A is insulting Player B after a stressful argument. Nothing too egregious but still a personal attack over the line. Which do you feel is the most successful response for Player B, 1) Ignore Player A, and quietly report player. 2) Tell the player that you feel he went over the line, and then report the post. 3) Wait until after the game and talk with said player in a less stressful situation, if you feel he is sorry and over reacted, leave it alone. If he isn't regretting the mistake, then report and ignore if needed.

    What are the pros and cons to each of the responses in your opinion
    I know I'm not a mod, but:

    I report things immediately now and then try to shoulder the load/get through. Telling someone you reported them is actually against the rules, I think. Granted there's a percentage that come out as no action taken, but reporting people is the best and should probably be done during the game.

    I'll take apologies in post, sure, but I find that if someone does something that you should report someone over, you should just report them and worry later.
    the only reason I'd disagree with the bolded is personal beliefs/trust, other than that I could see the standard of worrying later decent

  4. ISO #804
    Quote Originally Posted by Phighter (#802)
    Quote Originally Posted by For Reports (#802)
    Player A and Player B are in a game, Player A is insulting Player B after a stressful argument. Nothing too egregious but still a personal attack over the line. Which do you feel is the most successful response for Player B, 1) Ignore Player A, and quietly report player. 2) Tell the player that you feel he went over the line, and then report the post. 3) Wait until after the game and talk with said player in a less stressful situation, if you feel he is sorry and over reacted, leave it alone. If he isn't regretting the mistake, then report and ignore if needed.

    What are the pros and cons to each of the responses in your opinion
    I know I'm not a mod, but:

    I report things immediately now and then try to shoulder the load/get through. Telling someone you reported them is actually against the rules, I think. Granted there's a percentage that come out as no action taken, but reporting people is the best and should probably be done during the game.

    I'll take apologies in post, sure, but I find that if someone does something that you should report someone over, you should just report them and worry later.

    Regarding saying you reported someone, in game is bad for angleshooting or w.e, but it being against the rules outside of the game would be hilariously ********. My 2nd point was saying you felt hurt by them, not telling them you were reporting it, I think being open about how you feel with someone is more likely to change them than quietly reporting them and maybe a mod goes "hey fk you, don't do that again" *slaps wrist*

  5. ISO #805
    ...back on topic, can a mod answer why you use the word "coaching" in moderation rather than "warning?" I personally feel it's condescending and I've talked to a lot of other people who believe the same thing. Not a big deal obviously just wondering the reasoning behind it.
    Last edited by Darkness; January 12th, 2019 at 12:20 AM.
    "They'll come up with all sorts of reasons to avoid the wolf wagons if we let them." Dels, mafia chat, Not an Anime Mash

  6. ISO #806
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkness (#805)
    ...back on topic, can a mod answer why you use the word "coaching" in moderation rather than "warning?" I personally feel it's condescending and I've talked to a lot of other people who believe the same thing. Not a big deal obviously just wondering the reasoning behind it.
    both are used for different severity levels

    the connotation difference/intent is coaching is “this is what an issue was please take note of this and don’t do it again” and warning is generally “you should know better at this point and you need to stop if you wish to continue being on this site”
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  7. ISO #807
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#806)
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkness (#805)
    ...back on topic, can a mod answer why you use the word "coaching" in moderation rather than "warning?" I personally feel it's condescending and I've talked to a lot of other people who believe the same thing. Not a big deal obviously just wondering the reasoning behind it.
    both are used for different severity levels

    the connotation difference/intent is coaching is “this is what an issue was please take note of this and don’t do it again” and warning is generally “you should know better at this point and you need to stop if you wish to continue being on this site”
    I'd assume his point is more like, you receive some message from a mod saying "dont do that again its against the rules" is more or less always going to be seen as a warning. I have had and others I've seen get an official warning on something before the "coaching" thing supposedly occurs, so from his point of having a difference in these two things is redundant. Coaching can be seen as treating someone below you or acting like they are children compared to you. There is no system that has been laid out, where in you receive some official coaching lesson, mess up, receive warning, mess up receive ban, it's almost all over the place, so why would there need to be any reason to differentiate these terms publicly? Just saying first warning and last warning, would suffice even more applicable most likely.

  8. ISO #808
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#807)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#806)
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkness (#805)
    ...back on topic, can a mod answer why you use the word "coaching" in moderation rather than "warning?" I personally feel it's condescending and I've talked to a lot of other people who believe the same thing. Not a big deal obviously just wondering the reasoning behind it.
    both are used for different severity levels

    the connotation difference/intent is coaching is “this is what an issue was please take note of this and don’t do it again” and warning is generally “you should know better at this point and you need to stop if you wish to continue being on this site”
    I'd assume his point is more like, you receive some message from a mod saying "dont do that again its against the rules" is more or less always going to be seen as a warning. I have had and others I've seen get an official warning on something before the "coaching" thing supposedly occurs, so from his point of having a difference in these two things is redundant. Coaching can be seen as treating someone below you or acting like they are children compared to you. There is no system that has been laid out, where in you receive some official coaching lesson, mess up, receive warning, mess up receive ban, it's almost all over the place, so why would there need to be any reason to differentiate these terms publicly? Just saying first warning and last warning, would suffice even more applicable most likely.
    I support this paragraph. Basically, the same people who mentioned it was condescending also mentioned how it felt paternalistic (closely related obviously). I think that there may be more people than you might imaginie who might feel resentful about being "coached," while being more understanding about being warned. Even if it's functionally the exact same thing, it might make people respond/deal with it better.

    Edit: Or, if you do feel the need to differentiate between "warning" and "coaching", is there a different word possibly that you could substitute for coaching? idek just spitballing
    Last edited by Darkness; January 12th, 2019 at 03:33 AM.
    "They'll come up with all sorts of reasons to avoid the wolf wagons if we let them." Dels, mafia chat, Not an Anime Mash

  9. ISO #809
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    If you got a warning before ever being coached for something in that vein either you didn’t recognize a coaching as a coaching or you did something pretty severe just generally speaking.

    I’ll write more words on this later. Not sure what else we’d call coachings though.
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  10. ISO #810
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    I still wonder to myself why the coaching differential needs to be made? It's like, yes it must exist, so if you don't like the word coachings come up with something new lol

    Giving a pre-warning warning seems eh

  11. ISO #811
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#810)
    I still wonder to myself why the coaching differential needs to be made? It's like, yes it must exist, so if you don't like the word coachings come up with something new lol

    Giving a pre-warning warning seems eh
    because the implication with a coaching is generally that t seems like you didn’t know the rule/realize crossing the line etc

    a warning doesn’t really have that generally unless what happened was pretty severe and just “this can never repeat”

    coaching is more “hey this is how stuff works here please take note”
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  12. ISO #812
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    It’s basically “teach” vs “stop”
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  13. ISO #813
    Loansharking Blot Test Newcomb's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#807)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#806)
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkness (#805)
    ...back on topic, can a mod answer why you use the word "coaching" in moderation rather than "warning?" I personally feel it's condescending and I've talked to a lot of other people who believe the same thing. Not a big deal obviously just wondering the reasoning behind it.
    both are used for different severity levels

    the connotation difference/intent is coaching is “this is what an issue was please take note of this and don’t do it again” and warning is generally “you should know better at this point and you need to stop if you wish to continue being on this site”
    I'd assume his point is more like, you receive some message from a mod saying "dont do that again its against the rules" is more or less always going to be seen as a warning. I have had and others I've seen get an official warning on something before the "coaching" thing supposedly occurs, so from his point of having a difference in these two things is redundant. Coaching can be seen as treating someone below you or acting like they are children compared to you. There is no system that has been laid out, where in you receive some official coaching lesson, mess up, receive warning, mess up receive ban, it's almost all over the place, so why would there need to be any reason to differentiate these terms publicly? Just saying first warning and last warning, would suffice even more applicable most likely.
    The difference between the two things is the overall goal of the interaction.

    For a coaching, the goal is for the user to walk away with a better view of the landscape. Let's say it's someone's first game on the site and their home site gleefully condones angleshooting, and we send them a message saying "don't speculate about why someone subbed out, it's against the rules," that might get them to not do that exact thing, but it doesn't do a ton to actually clue them in as to how we generally do things here.

    For a warning, we're not so concerned with that, because it's either a thing that's really really obvious, or a situation where they should know better, either because they've been around the block or because we've already coached them on that exact thing. So it's less about getting them to understand and more about "seriously, stop doing X."

    If you want to call coaching something other than coaching, knock yourself out, but the coaching/warning distinction is a real and useful one.

  14. ISO #814
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    newcomb writes better words than I do
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  15. ISO #815
    Loansharking Blot Test Newcomb's Avatar Head Moderator
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    And yeah idk if you have a problem with the word itself feeling paternalistic or condesencding or whatever, I've always thought about it like a hitting coach or a first base coach.

    Professional athletes have coaches. You don't need to be a) bad or b) a child to have a coach. Different places do things differently, there's nothing wrong with not knowing something.

  16. ISO #816
    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#815)
    And yeah idk if you have a problem with the word itself feeling paternalistic or condesencding or whatever, I've always thought about it like a hitting coach or a first base coach.

    Professional athletes have coaches. You don't need to be a) bad or b) a child to have a coach. Different places do things differently, there's nothing wrong with not knowing something.
    I understand this rationale behind the word coaching, but all I’m saying is that it’s not just me, it’s multiple other people who feel the same way

    /shrug
    "They'll come up with all sorts of reasons to avoid the wolf wagons if we let them." Dels, mafia chat, Not an Anime Mash

  17. ISO #817
    Loansharking Blot Test Newcomb's Avatar Head Moderator
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    I personally don't feel the need/desire to change it, but if you look at the self-banning thing, me personally thinking something is silly is not a guarantee that someone on the mod team won't think it's not silly and volunteer to do something about it :v

    You got a better word, just out of curiosity?

  18. ISO #818
    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#817)
    I personally don't feel the need/desire to change it, but if you look at the self-banning thing, me personally thinking something is silly is not a guarantee that someone on the mod team won't think it's not silly and volunteer to do something about it :v

    You got a better word, just out of curiosity?
    ... as a matter of fact, no. I’ll think about it though lol
    "They'll come up with all sorts of reasons to avoid the wolf wagons if we let them." Dels, mafia chat, Not an Anime Mash

  19. ISO #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#813)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#807)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#806)
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkness (#805)
    ...back on topic, can a mod answer why you use the word "coaching" in moderation rather than "warning?" I personally feel it's condescending and I've talked to a lot of other people who believe the same thing. Not a big deal obviously just wondering the reasoning behind it.
    both are used for different severity levels

    the connotation difference/intent is coaching is “this is what an issue was please take note of this and don’t do it again” and warning is generally “you should know better at this point and you need to stop if you wish to continue being on this site”
    I'd assume his point is more like, you receive some message from a mod saying "dont do that again its against the rules" is more or less always going to be seen as a warning. I have had and others I've seen get an official warning on something before the "coaching" thing supposedly occurs, so from his point of having a difference in these two things is redundant. Coaching can be seen as treating someone below you or acting like they are children compared to you. There is no system that has been laid out, where in you receive some official coaching lesson, mess up, receive warning, mess up receive ban, it's almost all over the place, so why would there need to be any reason to differentiate these terms publicly? Just saying first warning and last warning, would suffice even more applicable most likely.
    The difference between the two things is the overall goal of the interaction.

    For a coaching, the goal is for the user to walk away with a better view of the landscape. Let's say it's someone's first game on the site and their home site gleefully condones angleshooting, and we send them a message saying "don't speculate about why someone subbed out, it's against the rules," that might get them to not do that exact thing, but it doesn't do a ton to actually clue them in as to how we generally do things here.

    For a warning, we're not so concerned with that, because it's either a thing that's really really obvious, or a situation where they should know better, either because they've been around the block or because we've already coached them on that exact thing. So it's less about getting them to understand and more about "seriously, stop doing X."

    If you want to call coaching something other than coaching, knock yourself out, but the coaching/warning distinction is a real and useful one.
    So the issue I've seen a good bit is complexity, Mods take coachings seriously (sometimes), but several times I've come across the user not understanding what the coaching means for them or remembering when/what they were even coached for. Since I know the mods keep a serious record of all coachings, I find it weird that the overall tone of coaching is so laid back and nonchalant. Where as a warning is understood by every human being, it was taught to all of us by a young age. I don't see how publicly making it more complex helps the user.

    p.s. it may help mods, but that isn't my perspective or care really
    Last edited by Lightness; January 12th, 2019 at 04:21 AM.

  20. ISO #820
    ^ another excellent point. Both on why differentiating a coaching helps the USER rather than the mods, and on the fact that based on personal experience and talking to people people often don’t even know they’ve been coached cause of the tone.
    "They'll come up with all sorts of reasons to avoid the wolf wagons if we let them." Dels, mafia chat, Not an Anime Mash

  21. ISO #821
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#815)
    And yeah idk if you have a problem with the word itself feeling paternalistic or condesencding or whatever, I've always thought about it like a hitting coach or a first base coach.

    Professional athletes have coaches. You don't need to be a) bad or b) a child to have a coach. Different places do things differently, there's nothing wrong with not knowing something.
    Professional athletes hire coaches to develop their technical skills, not to teach them how to behave properly. The term in this context absolutely is infantilizing and cringeworthy.

  22. ISO #822
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    i think the word coaching is wholesome ( wholesome, not cute! )

    i imagine it as a friendly baseball coach whos also a dad, teaching his son "come on sonny, you can do better than this, make your old man proud"

    the intention is probably to distance from "warning" as in a teacher waving his finger at your face, kinda of like from the song "just another brick in the wall" by pink floyd where there's that annoying authoritarian scottish teacher that tells that you can't eat your pudding if you don't eat your meat

    the people who are upset at the word coaching are probably upset at the fact that moderators spoke with them about their posts. similar effect to a villager upset for getting scumread. from their pov, they did nothing wrong, so why? that annoyance probably carries over and people associate it with the word

  23. ISO #823
    Loansharking Blot Test Newcomb's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#821)
    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#815)
    And yeah idk if you have a problem with the word itself feeling paternalistic or condesencding or whatever, I've always thought about it like a hitting coach or a first base coach.

    Professional athletes have coaches. You don't need to be a) bad or b) a child to have a coach. Different places do things differently, there's nothing wrong with not knowing something.
    Professional athletes hire coaches to develop their technical skills, not to teach them how to behave properly. The term in this context absolutely is infantilizing and cringeworthy.
    I’d argue that, say, a clearer understanding of OGI rules and the intent behind them is more equivalent to perfecting technical skills than it is to learning how to behave properly, but it probsbly depends a lot on context and what you imagine the actual messages look like.

    What would you change it to?

  24. ISO #824
    Wants It More FTFlush's Avatar
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    Can you describe the appeal process?
    Quote Originally Posted by TeamSemiNightless (#4)
    And it’s as simple as that
    Now back to work I go

  25. ISO #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy (#822)
    i think the word coaching is wholesome ( wholesome, not cute! )

    i imagine it as a friendly baseball coach whos also a dad, teaching his son "come on sonny, you can do better than this, make your old man proud"

    the intention is probably to distance from "warning" as in a teacher waving his finger at your face, kinda of like from the song "just another brick in the wall" by pink floyd where there's that annoying authoritarian scottish teacher that tells that you can't eat your pudding if you don't eat your meat

    the people who are upset at the word coaching are probably upset at the fact that moderators spoke with them about their posts. similar effect to a villager upset for getting scumread. from their pov, they did nothing wrong, so why? that annoyance probably carries over and people associate it with the word
    Yes I don't really think the issue is the wordage, I can ignore it if I don't like it. Thought complexity is an issue from my pov

  26. ISO #826
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    this isn’t a super deep thoyght or anything but I’m not sure why knowing if it was a coaching matters tbh?

    Same thing either way you broke a rule a mod talked to you about it. Regardless of the name. Pretty straightforward

    Sorry if this is overly simplified I just feel like “people don’t know they were coached” must be really caught up on the word? Like I can totally get how some people didn’t realize that. The word doesn’t really matter in terms of moderation progression though.
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  27. ISO #827
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#825)
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy (#822)
    i think the word coaching is wholesome ( wholesome, not cute! )

    i imagine it as a friendly baseball coach whos also a dad, teaching his son "come on sonny, you can do better than this, make your old man proud"

    the intention is probably to distance from "warning" as in a teacher waving his finger at your face, kinda of like from the song "just another brick in the wall" by pink floyd where there's that annoying authoritarian scottish teacher that tells that you can't eat your pudding if you don't eat your meat

    the people who are upset at the word coaching are probably upset at the fact that moderators spoke with them about their posts. similar effect to a villager upset for getting scumread. from their pov, they did nothing wrong, so why? that annoyance probably carries over and people associate it with the word
    Yes I don't really think the issue is the wordage, I can ignore it if I don't like it. Thought complexity is an issue from my pov
    I’m kinda confused about the complexity thing I don’t get how it’s complex?

    Like yeah we take it somewhat seriously because it means in a second instance you’re not breaking the rule out of sheer ignorance anymore you should know better etc. that’s a little oversimplified but. If you’re talked to about something and do t again or similar soon after it seems reasonable to expect a stronger response? It’s supposed to be casual we’re just letting you know like “hey please don’t do that”.
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  28. ISO #828
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    How do people feel about "Refinement" - an instance of notable progress in the development of knowledge, technology, or skill. "Refinings" - to improve or perfect by pruning or polishing.

    With how mods use/see coachings and them being more about developing betterment in either behavior or knowledge, why not use the term refine?

  29. ISO #829
    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by For Reports (#801)
    So to actually get to something serious, since we've been promoting more host control on deciding what is and isn't allowed in their games/threads, do you see people being allowed to create threads/subforums on MU that let people behave with less rule restriction? Something similar to how Makaze controls the Discord's Debate channel and he can allow certain things that may not have been allowed previously. We've already seen people feel like a more rule restricted thing should be allowed per the host request, so I just wanted to know if the mods see the MU rules as a base and aren't allowing "worse" behavior on the site.
    In my experience and stuff at least, I think it's unlikely that we'd end up letting people have threads with less rule restriction... that's not really the point of them, I suppose! As they are now, the rules all exist for reasons that serve as, well, the barest base of things, yes!! And hosts already do sometimes have tighter restrictions on games; I can't really think of specific examples at the moment, but some people haven't allowed alts in their games, or required alts to out to them if they want to play, for one!

    Actually come to think of it, there have been games where some of the standard rules haven't been a thing, primarily being OC (Outside Communication) games which allows people to pm others outside of the game; those are a bit of a rarity though, however!!!

    Message a ghost at Arapocalypse#0834!

    Why wouldn't there be handcuffs?

  30. ISO #830
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#828)
    How do people feel about "Refinement" - an instance of notable progress in the development of knowledge, technology, or skill. "Refinings" - to improve or perfect by pruning or polishing.

    With how mods use/see coachings and them being more about developing betterment in either behavior or knowledge, why not use the term refine?
    Imo refinement implies there wasn’t an actual issue in the first place
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  31. ISO #831
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#828)
    How do people feel about "Refinement" - an instance of notable progress in the development of knowledge, technology, or skill. "Refinings" - to improve or perfect by pruning or polishing.

    With how mods use/see coachings and them being more about developing betterment in either behavior or knowledge, why not use the term refine?
    you just said you dont care about the word

    benji, bud, together you and me - lets stop wasting time and stuff. we're both gonna grow strong, now. turn off ur computer and go to bed. its night time in america right? tommorow morning ride ur bicycle. imma ride mine too, its popular af in netherlands. im gonna go to bed too cuz i was drinking with friends and i cant sleep drunk. we both going to bed RIGHT NOW

  32. ISO #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#827)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#825)
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy (#822)
    i think the word coaching is wholesome ( wholesome, not cute! )

    i imagine it as a friendly baseball coach whos also a dad, teaching his son "come on sonny, you can do better than this, make your old man proud"

    the intention is probably to distance from "warning" as in a teacher waving his finger at your face, kinda of like from the song "just another brick in the wall" by pink floyd where there's that annoying authoritarian scottish teacher that tells that you can't eat your pudding if you don't eat your meat

    the people who are upset at the word coaching are probably upset at the fact that moderators spoke with them about their posts. similar effect to a villager upset for getting scumread. from their pov, they did nothing wrong, so why? that annoyance probably carries over and people associate it with the word
    Yes I don't really think the issue is the wordage, I can ignore it if I don't like it. Thought complexity is an issue from my pov
    I’m kinda confused about the complexity thing I don’t get how it’s complex?

    Like yeah we take it somewhat seriously because it means in a second instance you’re not breaking the rule out of sheer ignorance anymore you should know better etc. that’s a little oversimplified but. If you’re talked to about something and do t again or similar soon after it seems reasonable to expect a stronger response? It’s supposed to be casual we’re just letting you know like “hey please don’t do that”.
    Well from a mods perspective they know what is going on, they know that it's a coaching before a word is even typed, they know what rule the user broke and how serious they it is. The user has zero of that information, and several times I've talked to people about their mod interactions and they feel like they didn't get much clarification/understanding from said interaction. I'm not sure how to show that feeling to you since any coaching you would be apart of is the exact opposite side to that.

  33. ISO #833
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#829)
    Quote Originally Posted by For Reports (#801)
    So to actually get to something serious, since we've been promoting more host control on deciding what is and isn't allowed in their games/threads, do you see people being allowed to create threads/subforums on MU that let people behave with less rule restriction? Something similar to how Makaze controls the Discord's Debate channel and he can allow certain things that may not have been allowed previously. We've already seen people feel like a more rule restricted thing should be allowed per the host request, so I just wanted to know if the mods see the MU rules as a base and aren't allowing "worse" behavior on the site.
    In my experience and stuff at least, I think it's unlikely that we'd end up letting people have threads with less rule restriction... that's not really the point of them, I suppose! As they are now, the rules all exist for reasons that serve as, well, the barest base of things, yes!! And hosts already do sometimes have tighter restrictions on games; I can't really think of specific examples at the moment, but some people haven't allowed alts in their games, or required alts to out to them if they want to play, for one!

    Actually come to think of it, there have been games where some of the standard rules haven't been a thing, primarily being OC (Outside Communication) games which allows people to pm others outside of the game; those are a bit of a rarity though, however!!!
    Game rules are different than behavioral rules

    Some game rules can be bent within the confines of a different game style

    Behavioral rules can’t be loosened in this way and it’s imo quite unlikely we would ever allow that
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  34. ISO #834
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#832)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#827)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#825)
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy (#822)
    i think the word coaching is wholesome ( wholesome, not cute! )

    i imagine it as a friendly baseball coach whos also a dad, teaching his son "come on sonny, you can do better than this, make your old man proud"

    the intention is probably to distance from "warning" as in a teacher waving his finger at your face, kinda of like from the song "just another brick in the wall" by pink floyd where there's that annoying authoritarian scottish teacher that tells that you can't eat your pudding if you don't eat your meat

    the people who are upset at the word coaching are probably upset at the fact that moderators spoke with them about their posts. similar effect to a villager upset for getting scumread. from their pov, they did nothing wrong, so why? that annoyance probably carries over and people associate it with the word
    Yes I don't really think the issue is the wordage, I can ignore it if I don't like it. Thought complexity is an issue from my pov
    I’m kinda confused about the complexity thing I don’t get how it’s complex?

    Like yeah we take it somewhat seriously because it means in a second instance you’re not breaking the rule out of sheer ignorance anymore you should know better etc. that’s a little oversimplified but. If you’re talked to about something and do t again or similar soon after it seems reasonable to expect a stronger response? It’s supposed to be casual we’re just letting you know like “hey please don’t do that”.
    Well from a mods perspective they know what is going on, they know that it's a coaching before a word is even typed, they know what rule the user broke and how serious they it is. The user has zero of that information, and several times I've talked to people about their mod interactions and they feel like they didn't get much clarification/understanding from said interaction. I'm not sure how to show that feeling to you since any coaching you would be apart of is the exact opposite side to that.
    Honestly that’s really confusing to me. I feel like most coachings are a v clear “this was an issue this is why please note this for the future” type thing? I’d love examples tbh but that’s getting out of the scope of this thread and also weird because other people’s moderation.

    People should ask questions if they’re confused I always try to sign my mod messages with a “please don’t hesitate to ask any questions” type thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#830)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#828)
    How do people feel about "Refinement" - an instance of notable progress in the development of knowledge, technology, or skill. "Refinings" - to improve or perfect by pruning or polishing.

    With how mods use/see coachings and them being more about developing betterment in either behavior or knowledge, why not use the term refine?
    Imo refinement implies there wasn’t an actual issue in the first place
    You do understand what coaching is? Coaches tend to refine a player/persons skill or ability at something. Coaches do not teach, they'd be teachers then

  36. ISO #836
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy (#831)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#828)
    How do people feel about "Refinement" - an instance of notable progress in the development of knowledge, technology, or skill. "Refinings" - to improve or perfect by pruning or polishing.

    With how mods use/see coachings and them being more about developing betterment in either behavior or knowledge, why not use the term refine?
    you just said you dont care about the word

    benji, bud, together you and me - lets stop wasting time and stuff. we're both gonna grow strong, now. turn off ur computer and go to bed. its night time in america right? tommorow morning ride ur bicycle. imma ride mine too, its popular af in netherlands. im gonna go to bed too cuz i was drinking with friends and i cant sleep drunk. we both going to bed RIGHT NOW
    Idc, im spending my night trying to come up with a solution to Amrocks because focusing on my irl issues would kill me kekek

    p.s. gained 10 lbs this month and felt like dying

  37. ISO #837
    Lost Weasley Brother Allundberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#826)
    this isn’t a super deep thoyght or anything but I’m not sure why knowing if it was a coaching matters tbh?

    Same thing either way you broke a rule a mod talked to you about it. Regardless of the name. Pretty straightforward

    Sorry if this is overly simplified I just feel like “people don’t know they were coached” must be really caught up on the word? Like I can totally get how some people didn’t realize that. The word doesn’t really matter in terms of moderation progression though.
    Hvnt read the ghread so sorry if im commenting on smthg that have been discussed and im missunderstanding.

    To me it is very important that mods are very clear in saying “this behavior zxxzzxzzz is not acceptable” when coaching me. Else how am i really supposed to know that my behavior was wrong?

  38. ISO #838
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#835)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#830)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#828)
    How do people feel about "Refinement" - an instance of notable progress in the development of knowledge, technology, or skill. "Refinings" - to improve or perfect by pruning or polishing.

    With how mods use/see coachings and them being more about developing betterment in either behavior or knowledge, why not use the term refine?
    Imo refinement implies there wasn’t an actual issue in the first place
    You do understand what coaching is? Coaches tend to refine a player/persons skill or ability at something. Coaches do not teach, they'd be teachers then
    Coaches can totally teach imo
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  39. ISO #839
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allundberg (#837)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#826)
    this isn’t a super deep thoyght or anything but I’m not sure why knowing if it was a coaching matters tbh?

    Same thing either way you broke a rule a mod talked to you about it. Regardless of the name. Pretty straightforward

    Sorry if this is overly simplified I just feel like “people don’t know they were coached” must be really caught up on the word? Like I can totally get how some people didn’t realize that. The word doesn’t really matter in terms of moderation progression though.
    Hvnt read the ghread so sorry if im commenting on smthg that have been discussed and im missunderstanding.

    To me it is very important that mods are very clear in saying “this behavior zxxzzxzzz is not acceptable” when coaching me. Else how am i really supposed to know that my behavior was wrong?
    I think we are very clear on that is the thing? People just from what I understand the issues to be don’t know it was a “coaching” and not them being told something wasn’t acceptable which makes little sense to me, that is the user end unimportant distinction

    I agree ppl knowing what they did was not acceptable is v important I think we are very clear with that we just don’t always specifically externally/to them describe it as a “coaching”

    but in terms of the core of the message/actual message you’re 100% right
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  40. ISO #840
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#838)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#835)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#830)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#828)
    How do people feel about "Refinement" - an instance of notable progress in the development of knowledge, technology, or skill. "Refinings" - to improve or perfect by pruning or polishing.

    With how mods use/see coachings and them being more about developing betterment in either behavior or knowledge, why not use the term refine?
    Imo refinement implies there wasn’t an actual issue in the first place
    You do understand what coaching is? Coaches tend to refine a player/persons skill or ability at something. Coaches do not teach, they'd be teachers then
    Coaches can totally teach imo
    The problem is, think about how dumbly complex a coaching on MU can be. I did the math on 7 mashes, during my searches I tend to find 10+ over the line insults, and 25+ barely under/line skirting insults like potato/etc. Let's say a new player got a coaching after saying "Benji is a toxic idiot", the coaching I assume would be quoting the rule with light tone "Hey bud, saw you insult someone there, just remember to not do that." Then in game that person saw a lot of others going around using potato as an insult or some other sort of codeword, does that person just have to assume that must be allowed even though it's against the spirit of the rule? Also, we should all know that most people don't just ask questions when they need to. This is why an official warning pm going into detail about something is 10x better.

    QUOTED wrong post btw
    Last edited by Lightness; January 12th, 2019 at 05:43 AM.

  41. ISO #841
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    Rereading any long game on MU still makes me reconsider my thoughts about rules on MU, thinking a newbie could understand where the line is based off a couple coachings is not right from where I stand

  42. ISO #842
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    Also you don't teach people how to follow rules imo, mods refine behavior. Staff allows insults, staff also has rules against them, but they have an unwritten line they want the community to fall behind. So you refine those people who are over it until they fit in. If they aren't open to refining how they act they get forced to leave. You don't teach new behavior, that's not how behavior works lol'


    such an irrelevant thing anyways lol, just being a devils advocate for Amrock

  43. ISO #843
    Thumbs Up Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#806)
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkness (#805)
    ...back on topic, can a mod answer why you use the word "coaching" in moderation rather than "warning?" I personally feel it's condescending and I've talked to a lot of other people who believe the same thing. Not a big deal obviously just wondering the reasoning behind it.
    both are used for different severity levels

    the connotation difference/intent is coaching is “this is what an issue was please take note of this and don’t do it again” and warning is generally “you should know better at this point and you need to stop if you wish to continue being on this site”
    maybe "Coaching" primes the conversation in a coach/player, teacher/student, parent/child context that really isnt conducive to two adults having a healthy conversation.

    Maybe "reminder" would be better.

    Reminder, this is the rule on talking about subs, this is why it exists, and this is why the way you talked about subs in game X was not so great

  44. ISO #844
    Thumbs Up Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by For Reports (#802)
    Player A and Player B are in a game, Player A is insulting Player B after a stressful argument. Nothing too egregious but still a personal attack over the line. Which do you feel is the most successful response for Player B, 1) Ignore Player A, and quietly report player. 2) Tell the player that you feel he went over the line, and then report the post. 3) Wait until after the game and talk with said player in a less stressful situation, if you feel he is sorry and over reacted, leave it alone. If he isn't regretting the mistake, then report and ignore if needed.

    What are the pros and cons to each of the responses in your opinion
    This is really not the type of questions for this thread tbh

    1. Doesnt really have to do with modding

    2. It will vary wilding from situation to situation

    3. Figure it out yourself tbh
    Last edited by Apoc; January 12th, 2019 at 06:56 AM.

  45. ISO #845
    Thumbs Up Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#807)
    Coaching can be seen as treating someone below you or acting like they are children compared to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkness (#808)
    Basically, the same people who mentioned it was condescending also mentioned how it felt paternalistic (closely related obviously). I think that there may be more people than you might imaginie who might feel resentful about being "coached," while being more understanding about being warned.
    Just wanted to point out i have only just read these two posts

  46. ISO #846
    Thumbs Up Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#813)
    If you want to call coaching something other than coaching, knock yourself out, but the coaching/warning distinction is a real and useful one.
    You should remove the labels entirely imo

    They both create misgiving before a conversation has even started.

    The word coaching has a parent/child connotation.

    The word warning puts a lot of people in defence mode. And sometimes creates an "us vs them", "cop vs civilian" type of attitude.


    The goal should be a peer to peer conversation. I understand if that seems counter-intuitive, but if any mod doesnt see themself as a peer with regular users then that's a problem all on its own tbh
    Last edited by Apoc; January 12th, 2019 at 07:20 AM.

  47. ISO #847
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    what happened to being specific in the public mod log?

  48. ISO #848
    Thumbs Up Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#815)
    And yeah idk if you have a problem with the word itself feeling paternalistic or condesencding or whatever, I've always thought about it like a hitting coach or a first base coach.

    Professional athletes have coaches. You don't need to be a) bad or b) a child to have a coach. Different places do things differently, there's nothing wrong with not knowing something.
    There are a few problems with this analogy Newcomb.


    The relationship is different
    In baseball, it's a professional relationship. Most players are probably not best friends with their coach. They are friends with the other players, the coaches are typically friends with the other coaches. (This obviously isn't to say they are not friendly with each other, but it's primarily a business relationship).

    Moderators are primarily players. They are regular users, friends, sometimes best friends, their main goal here is to play games of mafia. At least that's how i see it (I don't know about everyone else?).
    Then they agree to volunteer their time to keep things going, because...well, somebody has to! (Thanks btw ). The dynamic is very different.

    Not to mention the fact that the players are usually the superstars, and coaches of all levels are regularly "let go" because the players didn't like the type of coaching they got (I don't know how it is in baseball, but this happens regularly in soccer).



    The type of "coaching" is different
    If you are being modded (in any capacity) it's because you did something wrong. Calling the moderation "coaching" doesn't automatically make it the same as other types of "coaching". I know the intent is to convey an information exchange, rather than punishment...but the athlete/coach dynamic is far more like the mentor/mentee game than a mod/user relationship.



    The expectations are different
    Baseball players expect to be coached. It's inherently part of their job. They want the coaching. Most people don't want or expect moderation, so from the get go their approach towards receiving it will be very different. So how the coach approaches the situation will probably need to be different too.






    All of this seems pedantic over a simple analogy or choice of wording, but the underlying attitude towards the interaction...
    and how the players perceive it (it doesn't matter how it actually is )...I think was worth getting into
    Last edited by Apoc; January 12th, 2019 at 08:35 AM.

  49. ISO #849
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightness (#819)
    So the issue I've seen a good bit is complexity, Mods take coachings seriously (sometimes), but several times I've come across the user not understanding what the coaching means for them or remembering when/what they were even coached for. Since I know the mods keep a serious record of all coachings, I find it weird that the overall tone of coaching is so laid back and nonchalant. Where as a warning is understood by every human being, it was taught to all of us by a young age. I don't see how publicly making it more complex helps the user.

    p.s. it may help mods, but that isn't my perspective or care really
    Imo, if you want to be treated like a student, go back to school.


    Keeping it chill and non-chalant is way more conducive to a fun place to be imo.
    Being "told off" is not my idea of a good time. We're all adults here (at least, that's my dream )

  50. ISO #850
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#821)
    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#815)
    And yeah idk if you have a problem with the word itself feeling paternalistic or condesencding or whatever, I've always thought about it like a hitting coach or a first base coach.

    Professional athletes have coaches. You don't need to be a) bad or b) a child to have a coach. Different places do things differently, there's nothing wrong with not knowing something.
    Professional athletes hire coaches to develop their technical skills, not to teach them how to behave properly. The term in this context absolutely is infantilizing and cringeworthy.
    I've spent too much time with askthepizza

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