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Thread: Season 3, Game 1: The Neverending Story [Mafia Championship]

  1. ISO #101
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    and miss alkane can be my first villager

  2. ISO #102
    Thread Analyst Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDominaria View Post
    @Marco:

    I wasn't aware there was any stated reason for people going after Mess. That is, I don't believe anyone voting him (Prime or Manti) have said they are doing so because he refused to link to his past games (not to mention I was the first to refuse the request for justified reasons).

    Why do you think Mess would draw ire simply by refusing to post to past games?
    It seems I made an error. For some reason, I thought it was mess who refused initially, not you. I blame my unfamiliarity with all of you and mobile posting.

    That said, what is your opinion on prime?

  3. ISO #103
    Thread Analyst Marco's Avatar
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    And as for drawing ire, I think some people can take it as a sign of being non Co operative or trying to discourage people from reading oneself, which doesn't make much sense as town.

  4. ISO #104
    Thread Analyst PrimeIntellect's Avatar
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    Lissa I'm liking your reaction more and more.

    It's good to establish a solid town block early on and watch to see how mafia try to fight getting boxed in.

  5. ISO #105
    @Marco:

    I don't have an opinion of Prime atm as it seems he's doing nothing but seeking out reactions.

    What's your view of the three of us who have neglected to post past games? It sounds like you're of the opinion it is a town-thing to do despite the lack of opinions on those who have neglected to.

    @Lissa:
    probably prime, manti seems like he had some plausible background thinking behind it
    What kind of possible information could give a town/scum read from those posts on Day 1? That is what Prime voted based off of right?

  6. ISO #106
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDominaria View Post
    @Marco:

    I don't have an opinion of Prime atm as it seems he's doing nothing but seeking out reactions.

    What's your view of the three of us who have neglected to post past games? It sounds like you're of the opinion it is a town-thing to do despite the lack of opinions on those who have neglected to.

    @Lissa:
    probably prime, manti seems like he had some plausible background thinking behind it
    What kind of possible information could give a town/scum read from those posts on Day 1? That is what Prime voted based off of right?
    I don't really want to go into it yet because that makes it easy on manti if he's a wolf and Id like him to explain it himself still, but I thought about it a bit and I can think of a plausible (though not very good imo and maybe even wolfy thinking about it more) reason he could have a townread on me conditional on scum having daychat

  7. ISO #107
    Thread Analyst Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDominaria View Post
    @Marco:

    I don't have an opinion of Prime atm as it seems he's doing nothing but seeking out reactions.

    What's your view of the three of us who have neglected to post past games? It sounds like you're of the opinion it is a town-thing to do despite the lack of opinions on those who have neglected to.
    I don't think it's a town thing to do. Just that it's not necessarily a scum thing to do. The fact that there is a negative association to it is precisely why I think scum would avoid doing it.

    I, personally, won't bother with checking people's previous games cause it requires too much time to do reliably, especially since we're all Champs. They could also link games where they think they excelled as scum. This is a Champs game and I don't doubt all of us have had stellar scum performances. So, there is no reason for scum to not do it because of being afraid about being scum-read.

    On that note, I will link my previous games in case anyone is actually interested, but it'll be after I get to my pc.

  8. ISO #108
    Bandwagoner Easy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDominaria View Post
    @Easy:

    Your post reeks of middle-path scum attitude to me. Especially since Manti and Mess are opposites at this point in time.
    That's unfortunate, but I wouldn't really say they're on opposite sides except insofar as they're voting for each other.

    Argument-wise, Manti voted Mess for... well, as far as I can see, no particular reason. On the flip side, Mess seems to have voted Manti because what he said could be taken as him pre-emptively justifying future anti-Town plays with his prior reputation, (albeit with possible OMGUS bias), which is a sentiment I can get behind. The way Mess responded to getting hunted strikes me as a little suspicious, but that doesn't mean the case against Manti disappears as a result. (Though with that said, it's also possible that Manti was just mudslinging to see what sticks, and happened to score on Mess today.)

    Should either one of them die and flip town today, from where I'm standing, the other one would seem to be the best lead to look at.

  9. ISO #109
    Thread Analyst Marco's Avatar
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    The "Do scum have daychat" seemed more like an attempt at town-telling. It should be easy enough to find out without asking in thread.

  10. ISO #110
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    The "Do scum have daychat" seemed more like an attempt at town-telling. It should be easy enough to find out without asking in thread.
    Thinking about it more I think its a weird thing for a villager to have been thinking about at that point and yeah it was in an op with some other fairly important game information

  11. ISO #111
    Thread Analyst Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDominaria View Post
    @Easy:

    Your post reeks of middle-path scum attitude to me. Especially since Manti and Mess are opposites at this point in time.
    That's unfortunate, but I wouldn't really say they're on opposite sides except insofar as they're voting for each other.

    Argument-wise, Manti voted Mess for... well, as far as I can see, no particular reason. On the flip side, Mess seems to have voted Manti because what he said could be taken as him pre-emptively justifying future anti-Town plays with his prior reputation, (albeit with possible OMGUS bias), which is a sentiment I can get behind. The way Mess responded to getting hunted strikes me as a little suspicious, but that doesn't mean the case against Manti disappears as a result. (Though with that said, it's also possible that Manti was just mudslinging to see what sticks, and happened to score on Mess today.)

    Should either one of them die and flip town today, from where I'm standing, the other one would seem to be the best lead to look at.
    This isn't about mess and Manti. Just in general. In my experience, scum usually refrain from starting wagons unless they think one of their own might be in jeopardy, especially early game. So, if a guy flips town, there's no reason to assume the wagon starter is any better lead than the others on the wagon. And I mean wagon, not just a stay vote here or there.

    This doesn't mean scum won't vote for people who have 0 votes. Just that one shouldn't follow a knee jerk reaction when a wagon flips town.

  12. ISO #112
    Low Hanging Fruit Messremb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDominaria View Post
    @Easy:

    Your post reeks of middle-path scum attitude to me. Especially since Manti and Mess are opposites at this point in time.
    That's unfortunate, but I wouldn't really say they're on opposite sides except insofar as they're voting for each other.

    Argument-wise, Manti voted Mess for... well, as far as I can see, no particular reason. On the flip side, Mess seems to have voted Manti because what he said could be taken as him pre-emptively justifying future anti-Town plays with his prior reputation, (albeit with possible OMGUS bias), which is a sentiment I can get behind. The way Mess responded to getting hunted strikes me as a little suspicious, but that doesn't mean the case against Manti disappears as a result. (Though with that said, it's also possible that Manti was just mudslinging to see what sticks, and happened to score on Mess today.)

    Should either one of them die and flip town today, from where I'm standing, the other one would seem to be the best lead to look at.
    Sorry, did I miss me voting someone?

  13. ISO #113
    Thread Analyst Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    The "Do scum have daychat" seemed more like an attempt at town-telling. It should be easy enough to find out without asking in thread.
    Thinking about it more I think its a weird thing for a villager to have been thinking about at that point and yeah it was in an op with some other fairly important game information
    I actually haven't gone through the OP completely myself (will do once I get to PC), but I think if one was curious about a detail that should be in the OP, they would just check the OP, rather than ask in thread. Especially if they town read someone based on the answer.

  14. ISO #114
    Thread Analyst Beluga Whale's Avatar
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    Sup everyone!

    I chuckled hard at that bio, Mantichora. Good stuff.

    I'll post my thoughts as I read through the thread.

  15. ISO #115
    Bandwagoner Easy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    This isn't about mess and Manti. Just in general. In my experience, scum usually refrain from starting wagons unless they think one of their own might be in jeopardy, especially early game. So, if a guy flips town, there's no reason to assume the wagon starter is any better lead than the others on the wagon. And I mean wagon, not just a stay vote here or there.

    This doesn't mean scum won't vote for people who have 0 votes. Just that one shouldn't follow a knee jerk reaction when a wagon flips town.
    Very true, but I don't really see Manti's pro-wagoning stance as an issue at all in this case. It's the thing about keeping him alive for a free win that makes him look like a decent candidate, for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Messremb View Post
    Sorry, did I miss me voting someone?
    I... huh. I guess I should have read over all of that more thoroughly.


    On another note: the daytalk question thing. I think we're reading into it a bit overmuch. I think it's more likely to just be idle curiosity than an elaborate scum mind-trick or mistake.

  16. ISO #116
    @Easy:

    I like how you allude to a potential chain lynch in your post.

    @Lissa:

    Ok, Manti gave a tentative town read on you for answering his question. I see now. That would be something I would call buddying-up. Especially for something so small. Manti is coming off as trying to score points with you.

  17. ISO #117
    Thread Analyst Marco's Avatar
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    I wasn't referring to Manti's pro-wagon stance. I was referring to you saying that if either flips town, the other is a good lead just because they're on "opposing" sides.

  18. ISO #118
    ^ Marco's got it.

  19. ISO #119
    Thread Analyst Marco's Avatar
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    @king, it didn't look to me like Manti leaned town on lissa because of her answering him. It seemed like he was under the impression that if there is no daychat, then lissa might be town.

  20. ISO #120
    Thread Analyst Marco's Avatar
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    That's what the exchange liked like, especially because answering that question should not be reason to town read anyone.

  21. ISO #121
    Thread Analyst Marco's Avatar
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    EBWOP: looked* like

  22. ISO #122
    FoS: Easy

    Also, about scum driven wagons, depends on the person. I like to personally believe that scum will tend to play safe, but that doesn't take into account players who are active as scum. It's not unheard of to have a wagon started by active scum.

    Plus, now that I know what I'm looking at, the daychat stuff is worthy of notice. Originally I thought nothing of it, but upon conversing with Lissa about w/e was going on, it gave me reason to look back and see what I saw with Manti trying to buddyup to Lissa to whatever end Manti is shooting for.

    Manti is worth looking at strictly because of the admitted bandwagon vote (bandwagon that has only 2 votes, but it is the principle that matters) as well as other moves such as the subtle buddying up with the daychat question and the big red text of wanting to be kept alive to guarantee a win.

  23. ISO #123
    Bandwagoner Necare's Avatar
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    Evidence is always hard to come by on Day 1 one way or the other, and even though it's a necessity for town to look for clues in everything, I find that more often than not the opinions or suspicions that form at this stage in the game turn out to be incorrect.

    So in that vein, I'm reluctant to latch on to Manti's 'SAVE ME FOR AN EASY WIN' (paraphrasing here) but that could just be because I'm used to playing in games where people goof around and just say stuff, even if sometimes it's a genuine attempt to obfuscate their goals or alignment.

    I'll also throw in my agreement that I don't think compiling a list of past games is indicative of being either pro-town or pro-scum and I'm among those who see no point in it and won't do it. Part of my motivation for participating in this tournament was to avoid a heavy meta. Besides, I can't remember off the top of my head which team I was on in which games, which games I've played in, how well I did, and which ones would be a good showcase to provide a concise picture of my playstyle. If anyone wants to know how I play they can visit the Temple and trawl through our mafia games themselves.

  24. ISO #124
    @Marco:

    That's not at all how the interaction came off to me. Manti asked about daychat being on. Clarified it as mafia daychat (when someone asked what is this daychat thing). Then, after Lissa responded, Manti declared a tentative town read on Lissa. Anyone who read the rules (which I'm sure most of us did because why wouldn't you?) and answered Manti's post would likely have been issued the tentative town read from Manti.

    I sincerely doubt there's anything more in depth to the entire thing than that (as there is little to even work with in regards to that).

  25. ISO #125
    Thread Analyst Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDominaria View Post
    @Marco:

    That's not at all how the interaction came off to me. Manti asked about daychat being on. Clarified it as mafia daychat (when someone asked what is this daychat thing). Then, after Lissa responded, Manti declared a tentative town read on Lissa. Anyone who read the rules (which I'm sure most of us did because why wouldn't you?) and answered Manti's post would likely have been issued the tentative town read from Manti.

    I sincerely doubt there's anything more in depth to the entire thing than that (as there is little to even work with in regards to that).
    That's my point. Why would Manti get a town read on lissa just because she read the OP and answered him?

  26. ISO #126
    Bandwagoner Easy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I wasn't referring to Manti's pro-wagon stance. I was referring to you saying that if either flips town, the other is a good lead just because they're on "opposing" sides.
    Well, again, that's not the reason at all. Manti's been acting weird, and Mess comes across kind of jumpy. That they're against each other doesn't necessarily clear either of them at this point.

  27. ISO #127
    Bandwagoner Easy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDominaria View Post
    @Easy:

    I like how you allude to a potential chain lynch in your post.
    ?

  28. ISO #128
    Automatic Game Mod Mafia Host's Avatar
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    The Neverending Story Day 1 Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    3 Mantichora KingofDominaria (13), Teneb (1), Miss Alkane (2)
    2 Messremb PrimeIntellect (4), Mantichora (10)
    1 Lissa Iamnobody (7)
    11 Not voting Marco (14), Messremb (11), XLAV (1), Beluga Whale (1), Haelbarde (9), BFG (7), Bitoku (1), Easy (5), VikeStep (8), Lissa (20), Necare (4)


    View Vote History

    Day 1 ends at 8:00 PM EDT on Tuesday, April 26th, 2016. There are 1461715260000 remaining.

    Requested by Askthepizzaguy* at 1 days, 4 hours, 50 minutes, 5 seconds remaining.

  29. ISO #129
    Thread Analyst Beluga Whale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VikeStep View Post
    For those wondering, the only player I will be able to provide meta on is Lissa as she is the only player here I have played with before. So hit me up if you are keen for that kind of information.
    Yeah out of this group I've also only played with Lissa. I don't think I've ever seen her as scum though but I know she's been able to figure me out when I was scum in previous games.

    Quote Originally Posted by VikeStep View Post
    For those interested

    Here is one of my mafia games: http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/...rmers-Mafia%21
    And here is one of my town games (I was subbed in for Morfinyon at some point in d1): http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/...ney-Princesses
    At first I thought this looked good but it somewhat feels like a defensive effort to make himself look good.
    As town, my first move isn't to show how I play as town but to instead just play my game and let things fall in place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora View Post
    PROTECT ME FOR A FREE WIN~




    I play under either TheCow or Mantichora on most websites I join. On 7th I was probably TheCow. I have played in rouffly half of the games hosted on TownofSalem, so you can probably just click on some random games, and find me. Note that an account is required to view the Mafia games on this site.

    Town Games: 7F, 2D, 7B, CFM7, CFM6, ASG2.

    Non-town Games: TFM6, NFM1 (kappa), Fire Emblem, CFM11, 8F, 4D, CFM1b, Halloween Special.

    This should be a sizable enough sample for people to get a feel for my meta. I would appreciate if other players did the same as me, and post some of their previous games as well.




    ##Vote KingofDominaria
    omgus
    Bold start but based on his bio I don't think I cold have expected anything else haha.

    I kind of read the extensive display of previous meta in the same light as Vike's in the sense that although it does show he has nothing to hide, it doesn't seem like a townie's first move.

    Also, I don't think previous meta is very helpful at reading people in a new game where mostly no one knows each other. My personal meta on my own site is very different from how I play here and even my game-to-game meta changes significantly.
    Looking at previous games has helped me in the past but I don't think it's going to be worth my time sorting through all that info for every player in the game when I could be analyzing the actual game itself. I might glance at the previous games of players who have played on this site but I likely won't be going through any games on other communities.
    But if anyone does want to see my previous games they should be accessible through the database function on this site.


    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDominaria View Post
    I see you're staying true to your bio Manti. All the more reason I must see your demise.

    Also, if you're wanting to see past games of mine, then you'll have to go find them. I'm not going to bother with dredging up old games of mine for the explicit purpose of making it easier on you to try and read me.
    This doesn't look like something a wolf would say. Town lean on KoD for now.

    More to come after lunch...

  30. ISO #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Necare View Post
    -Snip-

    So in that vein, I'm reluctant to latch on to Manti's 'SAVE ME FOR AN EASY WIN' (paraphrasing here) but that could just be because I'm used to playing in games where people goof around and just say stuff, even if sometimes it's a genuine attempt to obfuscate their goals or alignment.

    -snip-
    I took out the opening and closing paragraph.

    In my opinion, everything people say in Mafia means something....even the stuff from the first day. People are playing around, but everyone is always leaving clues whether they know it or not. This is a large red flag to me.

  31. ISO #131

  32. ISO #132
    Bandwagoner Necare's Avatar
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    I'm not saying that we should ignore everything that happens on Day 1. Every scrap of information is valuable. I'm simply pointing out that, from my perspective at least, we should avoid the pitfall of letting our eagerness lead us to make hasty judgements about said information.

  33. ISO #133
    @Marco:

    Come again? Here's your previous statement.

    @king, it didn't look to me like Manti leaned town on lissa because of her answering him. It seemed like he was under the impression that if there is no daychat, then lissa might be town.
    This is what spawned my response to you. Here you state your [impression of Manti] that if there is no daychat, then Lissa might be town (again from Manti's perspective so there is no confusion). I don't understand how you got this impression based on what I've said (that you've agreed with). I mean, you're agreeing with me so yay, but I have no idea how you went from here to agreeing with me. Or, rather, I don't see how that was your point so to speak.

    Let me see if I'm on the same page as you.

    You're essentially saying that Manti's tentative town lean on Lissa (spawned via Lissa answering Manti's question) has no actual basis, correct?


    @Easy:

    Them being against one another wasn't supposed to clear either of them. The idea here is that both of them have shown an interaction that isn't positive (positive in the sense that they're not trying to overtly agree with one another). Because of this, you coming out and saying either of them looks good to you while also entertaining the idea that if one of them flips town, then we should look at the other comes off as scummy (in my eyes).

    That's where my chain lynch comment came from. No, you didn't directly say let's chain lynch. It's the impression though from your words when you say, "Well if one of them flips town, let's look at the other." Look at them to what end? To lynch? To throw posts at? etc etc

  34. ISO #134
    Thread Analyst PrimeIntellect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I wasn't referring to Manti's pro-wagon stance. I was referring to you saying that if either flips town, the other is a good lead just because they're on "opposing" sides.
    Well, again, that's not the reason at all. Manti's been acting weird, and Mess comes across kind of jumpy. That they're against each other doesn't necessarily clear either of them at this point.
    Ok, so which one do you think is the town member?

  35. ISO #135
    @Nobody:

    I won't lie. Where I hail from, D1s are muddled with that kind of talk. We lovingly refer to it as the "Joke Phase" of Day 1. It "ends" when things get serious which is arbitrary. Course, this isn't the place I hail from, so the obvious thing to note from that post is Necare's connection to Manti (via his commenting on Manti's "save me for easy win" words).

  36. ISO #136
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDominaria View Post
    @Easy:

    Your post reeks of middle-path scum attitude to me. Especially since Manti and Mess are opposites at this point in time.
    That's unfortunate, but I wouldn't really say they're on opposite sides except insofar as they're voting for each other.

    Argument-wise, Manti voted Mess for... well, as far as I can see, no particular reason. On the flip side, Mess seems to have voted Manti because what he said could be taken as him pre-emptively justifying future anti-Town plays with his prior reputation, (albeit with possible OMGUS bias), which is a sentiment I can get behind. The way Mess responded to getting hunted strikes me as a little suspicious, but that doesn't mean the case against Manti disappears as a result. (Though with that said, it's also possible that Manti was just mudslinging to see what sticks, and happened to score on Mess today.)

    Should either one of them die and flip town today, from where I'm standing, the other one would seem to be the best lead to look at.
    confused

    This does not appear to have happened?

    what are you referring to?

  37. ISO #137
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Last line is also baffling though my issue with it might be neutral semantics

    Something just seems off about the perspective

  38. ISO #138
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDominaria View Post
    @Easy:

    I like how you allude to a potential chain lynch in your post.

    @Lissa:

    Ok, Manti gave a tentative town read on you for answering his question. I see now. That would be something I would call buddying-up. Especially for something so small. Manti is coming off as trying to score points with you.
    Based on how he phrased it I definitely think the read had to do with there being daytalk rather than me telling him about it

  39. ISO #139
    Thread Analyst Beluga Whale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora View Post
    In that case, tentative town lean on lissa.
    take me through the reasoning for this read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora View Post
    ##Vote Messremb

    I'll wagon it.
    This is clearly not a serious vote but likely one to test reactions. I think this does look good on Manti actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Messremb View Post

    -snip-

    I'll wagon =/= I've wagoned

    One says you are happy to jump that way, the other that you have already jumped that way.

    Alternatively "I'll wagon" can be taken to mean you'll be happy to drive for a lynch in that direction.


    You're looking to get others thinking you're happy to add to the two votes on me and that therefore there is a basis to them. You're conveniently forgetting that you're one of the two votes.

    I think this behaviour is peculiar.
    This entire read is strange. I don't see how you can think his "I'll wagon" is serious at this point and that he's implying there's a basis for his votes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teneb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora View Post
    ##Vote Messremb

    I'll wagon it.
    Why so eager to jump on the wagon? It's literally a random vote, no case on them or anything. Seems you are just looking for an easy vote to allow you to coast along without having to bring attention onto yourself. But, since you like easy votes so much, here's one mr Scumbucket:

    ##Vote Mantichora
    ? Casts shade towards Manti for his bandwagon vote which was obviously not serious. I don?t like how he calls out this instead of some of the other actual scummy things Manti has done.


    Also based on these posts, I think Manti/Teneb and Manti/Mess scum interactions are unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy View Post
    Man. My community is just a whole bunch of total jerks, so all the positivity here is creeping me out. It feels wrong.

    Anyway, as things are now I'd be inclined towards a Mantichora vote. I don't know his meta, never seen his play, etc., but I don't like how he's busting it out as a shield already. And it's not like his play history could have had any effect on his random chance of being assigned a scum role.

    Failing that, I'd want to look at Messremb. It kinda looks like he got panicky and confusing when Manti got up in his case, so that might have some significance to it. Then again, probably not, but... y'know. Not much to go on, but still better than nothing.
    I don't get what you mean with the bolded part? Did you think he was implying that?



    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Alkane View Post
    I don't like the way Manti has been talking. First the big red "PROTECT ME FOR A WIN" sign, and then the wagoning on Messremb. Who does that without stating a reason? No good town I know.
    ##Vote Mantichora
    I might retract that if he ends up giving me a good reason to after he finishes playing dota.
    I don't like this post at all. You're basically just summarizing previous posts without giving any original insight.
    It's also scummy to say you'll retract your scum read if they give you reason to. When I'm scum-hunting I want potential wolves to feel the pressure, and not to give them any comfort.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa View Post
    I think there's a wolf in manti/prime

    lol I usually hate making "there's a wolf in x/y" reads but idc

    it really made very little sense to have me as a first townread

    probably prime, manti seems like he had some plausible background thinking behind it

    though thinking about daychat while making a page 1 read is kind of strange, actually
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa View Post
    and miss alkane can be my first villager
    Can you elaborate on how you came to the conclusion in the bolded? Are you implying one is wolf and the other is town?

    Also, how is Alkane towny?

  40. ISO #140
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDominaria View Post
    FoS: Easy

    Also, about scum driven wagons, depends on the person. I like to personally believe that scum will tend to play safe, but that doesn't take into account players who are active as scum. It's not unheard of to have a wagon started by active scum.

    Plus, now that I know what I'm looking at, the daychat stuff is worthy of notice. Originally I thought nothing of it, but upon conversing with Lissa about w/e was going on, it gave me reason to look back and see what I saw with Manti trying to buddyup to Lissa to whatever end Manti is shooting for.

    Manti is worth looking at strictly because of the admitted bandwagon vote (bandwagon that has only 2 votes, but it is the principle that matters) as well as other moves such as the subtle buddying up with the daychat question and the big red text of wanting to be kept alive to guarantee a win.
    I don't think the blatant bandwagoning in itself is wolfy in context

    What principle?

  41. ISO #141
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    It's not really a conditional read other than I find it sort of unlikely that two wolves would happen to pick me as their first townread close together? I wouldn't actually clear one if the other flipped wolf

    They just both did the same wolfy thing so I lumped my reads based on it together

  42. ISO #142
    Bandwagoner Easy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDominaria View Post
    @Easy:

    Them being against one another wasn't supposed to clear either of them. The idea here is that both of them have shown an interaction that isn't positive (positive in the sense that they're not trying to overtly agree with one another). Because of this, you coming out and saying either of them looks good to you while also entertaining the idea that if one of them flips town, then we should look at the other comes off as scummy (in my eyes).

    That's where my chain lynch comment came from. No, you didn't directly say let's chain lynch. It's the impression though from your words when you say, "Well if one of them flips town, let's look at the other." Look at them to what end? To lynch? To throw posts at? etc etc
    I see.

    Well, to clarify, what I mean is that they both look a little fishier than everybody else, to me, the way things stand right now, and I don't see it as an either/or choice between them. Are they potentially just two Townies who don't trust each other? Very possible. More likely than not, even. Does one of them flipping town make the other one any more likely to be scum? Absolutely not, or at least no more than it does anybody else. I just want to be clear on avoiding a 'pick one or the other' sort of mentality.

    Obviously, a number of different things could, and not unlikely will, potentially happen by Day 2 that would change that. Maybe there's an important investigation by the cop, maybe one of them flips scum, that sort of thing. I'll decide my Day 2 lynch on Day 2, like everybody else (I assume). When I say "look at," what I mean is that even after lynching one of them, especially if he comes up town, the discussion on the other should at least be continued.

    Granted, with this crowd, that likely didn't need saying in the first place. But, y'know. Habit.

  43. ISO #143
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Alkane is pretty much just tone. Felt pure. I read it and thought "this is probably a villager"

    Reminds me of villager alette a little

  44. ISO #144
    Thread Analyst BFG's Avatar
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    good evening :)
    HELLO TO JASON ISAACS

  45. ISO #145
    Low Hanging Fruit Messremb's Avatar
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    I'm out to work, mobile only for the next 13 hours so apologies in advance for the formatting abominations that are likely

  46. ISO #146
    Thread Analyst Marco's Avatar
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    @King, you're saying the interaction looked like Manti town read lissa cause she answered his question and that this doesn't make sense.

    I'm saying yes, it doesn't make sense, as why would you town read someone just because they answered a simple question that anyone could have answered.

    But what I'm also saying is that the interaction didn't look like this. It looked like regardless of who answered his question, he would town-read lissa. Which doesn't really make sense either, but at least he may have some reason that I'm not seeing.

  47. ISO #147
    Thread Analyst Marco's Avatar
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    @Easy, can you tell me why, according to you, the both of them are not likely to be town?

  48. ISO #148
    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDominaria View Post
    @Nobody:

    I won't lie. Where I hail from, D1s are muddled with that kind of talk. We lovingly refer to it as the "Joke Phase" of Day 1. It "ends" when things get serious which is arbitrary. Course, this isn't the place I hail from, so the obvious thing to note from that post is Necare's connection to Manti (via his commenting on Manti's "save me for easy win" words).
    I agree with the idea that D1 talk is usually pretty light since there isn't much to go on. We have a lot of players who use RNG to determine their vote, but just because you say you are using a RNG doesn't mean you are using one. That's why I'm not in favor of using them. I look at the motives behind everything written even during the D1 phase.

  49. ISO #149
    Bandwagoner Easy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimeIntellect View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Easy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I wasn't referring to Manti's pro-wagon stance. I was referring to you saying that if either flips town, the other is a good lead just because they're on "opposing" sides.
    Well, again, that's not the reason at all. Manti's been acting weird, and Mess comes across kind of jumpy. That they're against each other doesn't necessarily clear either of them at this point.
    Ok, so which one do you think is the town member?
    Not necessarily either of them, potentially both. If you're asking me which is more suspicious... still deciding on that. Only got up a few hours ago, and all that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Easy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDominaria View Post
    @Easy:

    Your post reeks of middle-path scum attitude to me. Especially since Manti and Mess are opposites at this point in time.
    That's unfortunate, but I wouldn't really say they're on opposite sides except insofar as they're voting for each other.

    Argument-wise, Manti voted Mess for... well, as far as I can see, no particular reason. On the flip side, Mess seems to have voted Manti because what he said could be taken as him pre-emptively justifying future anti-Town plays with his prior reputation, (albeit with possible OMGUS bias), which is a sentiment I can get behind. The way Mess responded to getting hunted strikes me as a little suspicious, but that doesn't mean the case against Manti disappears as a result. (Though with that said, it's also possible that Manti was just mudslinging to see what sticks, and happened to score on Mess today.)

    Should either one of them die and flip town today, from where I'm standing, the other one would seem to be the best lead to look at.
    confused

    This does not appear to have happened?

    what are you referring to?
    Yeah, Mess called that as well. That was a mistake. It never happened at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beluga Whale View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy View Post
    Man. My community is just a whole bunch of total jerks, so all the positivity here is creeping me out. It feels wrong.

    Anyway, as things are now I'd be inclined towards a Mantichora vote. I don't know his meta, never seen his play, etc., but I don't like how he's busting it out as a shield already. And it's not like his play history could have had any effect on his random chance of being assigned a scum role.

    Failing that, I'd want to look at Messremb. It kinda looks like he got panicky and confusing when Manti got up in his case, so that might have some significance to it. Then again, probably not, but... y'know. Not much to go on, but still better than nothing.
    I don't get what you mean with the bolded part? Did you think he was implying that?
    I don't think that was his intention, if that's what you mean. The post itself necessarily implies that, although it probably wasn't meant to be taken all that seriously.

  50. ISO #150
    Thread Analyst Beluga Whale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy View Post

    -snip-

    Very true, but I don't really see Manti's pro-wagoning stance as an issue at all in this case. It's the thing about keeping him alive for a free win that makes him look like a decent candidate, for me.

    -snip-

    I... huh. I guess I should have read over all of that more thoroughly.


    On another note: the daytalk question thing. I think we're reading into it a bit overmuch. I think it's more likely to just be idle curiosity than an elaborate scum mind-trick or mistake.
    You call Manti scummy but then in the same post say his question about day chat was likely 'idle curiosity' which would imply he's likely town. It looks like you've switched your read mid post.



    Quote Originally Posted by Necare View Post
    I'm not saying that we should ignore everything that happens on Day 1. Every scrap of information is valuable. I'm simply pointing out that, from my perspective at least, we should avoid the pitfall of letting our eagerness lead us to make hasty judgements about said information.
    This is a filler post imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    @King, you're saying the interaction looked like Manti town read lissa cause she answered his question and that this doesn't make sense.

    I'm saying yes, it doesn't make sense, as why would you town read someone just because they answered a simple question that anyone could have answered.

    But what I'm also saying is that the interaction didn't look like this. It looked like regardless of who answered his question, he would town-read lissa. Which doesn't really make sense either, but at least he may have some reason that I'm not seeing.
    Manti's post looked to me like his town read on Lissa was dependent on her answering his day chat question.

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