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Thread: Season 3, Game 3: Glee [Mafia Championship]

  1. ISO #51
    Soul Reader UpsideDownChuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy
    For example, if there is a Cop right, we all blanket claim whatever. We list our claims, and come day 4, oh my god the cop died night 3 without giving any investigations. Normally that would be 3 confirmed townies we just lost. But with this plan, we know once his role flips, he targeted x, y, and z and he didn't speak up. So he must have gotten innocent on those three people. Bam confirmed townies. Without the list we'd lose that. All the Mafia is going to see before the PR is dead is just a wall of people claiming nonsense. Which is what it is until a PR dies. Its a back up net. It can't be used before the PR dies so it can't endanger any PRs to being revealed until it already doesn't matter. We won't start it today, no one has made any actions yet that we know of. We'd start it Day 2. Does this make more sense or am I just sounding like an idiot. Because you wouldn't be the first person to tell me, "Nah Dante you're a gabbed up gobber m80."
    I hope the article I posted and my cliffs illustrated why the underlined is untrue. Your bio says you've played at over 100 different sites, is that true (or close to true)? I'm a little surprised you haven't come across this objection before.

  2. ISO #52
    Bandwagoner Minties's Avatar
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    I'm all for operation wall of fake claims with the suggestion that we just say targets instead of the actual roles. I have never done that on my home forum or ever in any game, so my experience with it is nill. Day ones are usually just random posting until someone slips up, usually with some kind of semantics like:

    Quote Originally Posted by SM1 (#33)
    "Generally" suspicious. I was alerting the town to the risks involved with role reveals.

    The plan that we all claim cop and list suspects so that the real cop can hide is an interesting idea though.
    We lynched someone in two games for saying things like "to the town" "I'm helping the town" and he ended up being scum. I feel like it conveys disconnect with being actually town and trying hard to appear inno. Maybe not in this case because it's still early, but semantics OP.

  3. ISO #53
    Soul Reader UpsideDownChuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MD4L (#49)
    Checking in.
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#46)
    Open question(s) to the group:

    Have you read any of the previous champions games (please keep in mind not to discuss game 2 of this season as it is ongoing)? What were your takeaways if any? How do you plan on dealing with not having meta on other players, and is metareads a big part of your game? How, if at all, are you going to approach this game differently from a regular game?
    Observe and add comments when things are suspicious. It's best to read every post and make notes. That is the Walterfootball strategy.
    Ok thank you. And that's a 'no' to having read previous games?

  4. ISO #54
    One moment addressing you UDC.

  5. ISO #55
    Thread Analyst Da Letter El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#46)
    Have you read any of the previous champions games (please keep in mind not to discuss game 2 of this season as it is ongoing)? What were your takeaways if any? How do you plan on dealing with not having meta on other players, and is metareads a big part of your game? How, if at all, are you going to approach this game differently from a regular game?
    I read through some of Paperblade's round 1 game last year, but I spoiled myself on who was what before reading so I sort of tainted the experience. A lot more lurkscum than I was expecting, a lot better individual townplay than I'd expect from a town that got absolutely rolled. Probably need to reread some cphoya posts on how to bury someone.

    Focus more on interactions, get a feel for how "good" a player is, and then make decisions on whether to read them more on what they are actively doing that is anti-town or what they are actively not doing as a result of being a good scum player.

  6. ISO #56
    Soul Reader UpsideDownChuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmdr Spock (#10)
    There's an ongoing debate in our mafia community about making and leaving lists, some feel it's too easily manipulated by the mob, lets them know what we suspect without giving us anything, while others like using it as a tool to provoke a response, or cover for anyone leaving clues. How do you feel about lists?
    Lists (I assume you mean ordered reads list) are fine. What's better still is in depth explanations of why you scumread and townread certain people. For reasons of triaging time often depth comes at the expense of breadth, so if I had to choose between a couple well thought out reads and a list of the whole roster with no explanation next to each person, I'd certainly choose the former.

    Where'd you go by the way? It's a little unusual to make one post asking a question the disappear when someone answers a couple minutes later.

  7. ISO #57
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#53)
    Quote Originally Posted by MD4L (#49)
    Checking in.
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#46)
    Open question(s) to the group:

    Have you read any of the previous champions games (please keep in mind not to discuss game 2 of this season as it is ongoing)? What were your takeaways if any? How do you plan on dealing with not having meta on other players, and is metareads a big part of your game? How, if at all, are you going to approach this game differently from a regular game?
    Observe and add comments when things are suspicious. It's best to read every post and make notes. That is the Walterfootball strategy.
    Ok thank you. And that's a 'no' to having read previous games?
    You are correct. There are enough different strategies with the current players.Is there something significant you would like to address?

  8. ISO #58
    Soul Reader Agent Of Zion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmdr Spock (#10)
    There's an ongoing debate in our mafia community about making and leaving lists, some feel it's too easily manipulated by the mob, lets them know what we suspect without giving us anything, while others like using it as a tool to provoke a response, or cover for anyone leaving clues. How do you feel about lists?
    I like TR/SR lists to an extent, but I'm not looking forward to reading 12000 posts and tracking everyones whimsy. $#@! reads like a biblical genealogy and can trap town into blindly believing the dead when they are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#18)
    Yeah I was thinking about a no lynch Day 1 but let's look at some math to see if we should skip Day 1 lynch or not. Because it's a worth while idea.

    If we start the game with 17 players we know 4 of which must be scum, then it's 13 to 4.

    So 13 towns alive start.
    12 - Mislynch Day 1
    11 - Mafia kill
    10 - Mislynch Day 2
    09 - Mafia kill
    08 - Mislynch Day 3
    07 - Mafia kill
    06 - Mislynch Day 4
    05 - Mafia kill
    04 - Mislynch Day 5 - Day 5 would be our Lynch or Lose

    We add one and we still don't gain a phase unless we get lucky and the Mafia fail a kill. Which we don't know is possible or not yet. Bummer. The math says the information is worth more than no lynch Day 1. Can't argue with math.
    You are missing the possibility of a Vigilante, which has the possibility of significantly reducing our options or expanding them greatly. Also, if we have an odd-night cop as our investigation role, RLing isn't optimal.

    I still agree very strongly with a random lynch until we get to MYLO+1 though (unless we know there is no vigilante). The mere possibility of an odd-night cop isn't really worrying.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWhoDoctor (#20)
    What if we played the hypo game with every role?

    Everyone claims the following:

    "I'm Jailkeeper and used my action on XYZ.
    I'm Cop and got XYZ result on ABC.
    I'm Doctor and targeted BCD." and so on and so forth for each power role, so that when the actual roles die, we know what's been going on. Just a thought, but meh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#22)
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWhoDoctor (#20)
    What if we played the hypo game with every role?

    Everyone claims the following:

    "I'm Jailkeeper and used my action on XYZ.
    I'm Cop and got XYZ result on ABC.
    I'm Doctor and targeted BCD." and so on and so forth for each power role, so that when the actual roles die, we know what's been going on. Just a thought, but meh.
    Eh but the mafia can just all claim to be vanilla townies. Those are abundant enough they can hide can't they? (Will do the math later if no one else does but on phone atm)
    Aside from the same issue of 12000 posts above, this also lends itself to manipulation and gives the maf more info than they are entitled to. If someone posts an inno on the mafia, that just reduces the field by that much, and if they are actually the cop and trying to be sneaky it reduces their credibility later on.

    Quote Originally Posted by SM1 (#30)
    I'm generally suspicious of anyone wanting people to reveal roles this early. It usually indicates mafia wanting to get people claiming roles so they have some idea of who to line up at night. At this stage there's enough townies for those with important good roles to stay hidden and actually do some good for the town.
    I agree, but with the caveat that the maf can't afford to CC anyone in any setup. Mafs are blue until MYLO/LYLO with this grid. I believe that a non-investigative clear after day two or three would be very good for the town. Innocent child, Mason, Vig (under certain circumstances) are good candidates for this.

  9. ISO #59
    Anyne worried about lurking scum?

  10. ISO #60
    Thread Analyst Cmdr Spock's Avatar
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    That was educational, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#44)
    Greetings.

    I see hypoclaims are being discussed. There was a pretty good article on this subject here

    Cliffs

    The downside to leaving cover as suggested by Dante et all is that people out themselves as 'not the cop' by a few things: peeking a wolf as innocent, choosing a peek they wouldn't realistically investigate, or talking about their peek later as though they hadn't peeked them innocent. This can lead to helping the scum team narrow down the cop pool considerably, read the postgame of game 1 here for some insight into how that works.

    My homesite doesn't do this kind of hypoclaiming because we don't typically play with role revealed on death. As such I don't have a ton of experience with it but I have played a couple games with it when playing elsewhere. My experience has been that while articles like the above are helpful, there's no substitute for practicing it over a couple games until you can get the nuances down, and most people leaving cover for the first time tend to screw it up (again see game 1). This is especially true when trying to maintain cover over multiple day phases.

    What I'd suggest is waiting a couple day phases until right before a more high leverage night (and maybe when we have a better idea of the PR's) and then leave convincing cover meant to help for that one night. I think that strikes a good balance between keeping the PR's alive and not outing people as not PR or being a huge distraction to the thread. The article I linked to more or less advocates this anyway, even though it's largely aimed at people more experienced with hypoclaiming.

    @Whodoctor, I'm a little unclear why you suggested the doc/jailer should claim targets (or rather that everyone should claim doc/jailer targets). How do you see that information benefiting the town?

  11. ISO #61
    Soul Reader Agent Of Zion's Avatar
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    Oh and for the record, I'm currently on Navy patrol so I will probably be posting more multi-quoted responses or statements semi-wide apart than what is considered normal at least for a few "game-days". Post times may vary wildly for the same reason, I have watches to stand, equipment to maintain, so on and so forth.

  12. ISO #62
    Soul Reader UpsideDownChuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MD4L (#57)
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#53)
    Quote Originally Posted by MD4L (#49)
    Checking in.
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#46)
    Open question(s) to the group:

    Have you read any of the previous champions games (please keep in mind not to discuss game 2 of this season as it is ongoing)? What were your takeaways if any? How do you plan on dealing with not having meta on other players, and is metareads a big part of your game? How, if at all, are you going to approach this game differently from a regular game?
    Observe and add comments when things are suspicious. It's best to read every post and make notes. That is the Walterfootball strategy.
    Ok thank you. And that's a 'no' to having read previous games?
    You are correct. There are enough different strategies with the current players.Is there something significant you would like to address?
    I had a couple takeaways from the previous games, I've talked a little about the hypoclaim one. Another was that refuge in audacity was a much more common scum tactic then I see in normal play. But the single biggest predictor I saw of a town's success was how they managed the clash of egos from having a bunch of players who were all used to being leaders on their home forums playing in a single game together. The first game we sent a rep to (season 1 game 3) was really instructive in terms of how toxic a town can get when everyone is playing as a cowboy and not working as a team or respecting each other. The scum swept that game handily. Game 1 of this season had similar issues and the scum won it as well.

    Anyway, that's something I wanted to bring up early on even though I'm not totally sure where I'm going with it. Don't be an egotistical prick, I guess? I'll at least be making an effort to play transparently and interactively, and I'm hoping enough other people will do the same.

  13. ISO #63
    Soul Reader UpsideDownChuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent of Zion
    I still agree very strongly with a random lynch until we get to MYLO+1 though (unless we know there is no vigilante). The mere possibility of an odd-night cop isn't really worrying.
    You still agree very strongly with random lynch? Could you explain what you mean by that precisely?

  14. ISO #64
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#47)
    Quote Originally Posted by SM1 (#45)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#42)
    Actually the point about the claimed role not mattering makes even more sense to just drop the claimed role. We could literally just say I targeted X last night and not even claim a role! As long as everyone does it, it won't cut down on the possible PRs for the scum at all!

    Yes, this makes far more sense.
    I disagree pretty strongly with this. As a cop I'm going to target very difficult people than I would as a doctor or than I would as a tracker, not to mention a vig. I think the scum would be able to infer quite a bit about roles from this. Do you disagree?
    You make a fair point, and thinking about it more, merely revealing who we have "actioned" without any result - as that would indicate a clearer deifnition of role - is pointless. So I'm back to square one of disagreeing with any sort of role reveal!

  15. ISO #65
    Soul Reader Agent Of Zion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MD4L (#59)
    Anyne worried about lurking scum?
    Only in the sense that having a specific post about lurking scum with very little contribution to any other on-going discussion seems scummy.


  16. ISO #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Minties (#52)
    I'm all for operation wall of fake claims with the suggestion that we just say targets instead of the actual roles. I have never done that on my home forum or ever in any game, so my experience with it is nill. Day ones are usually just random posting until someone slips up, usually with some kind of semantics like:

    Quote Originally Posted by SM1 (#33)
    "Generally" suspicious. I was alerting the town to the risks involved with role reveals.

    The plan that we all claim cop and list suspects so that the real cop can hide is an interesting idea though.
    We lynched someone in two games for saying things like "to the town" "I'm helping the town" and he ended up being scum. I feel like it conveys disconnect with being actually town and trying hard to appear inno. Maybe not in this case because it's still early, but semantics OP.
    I just use the town as a reference to all of us, I don't know what else we're meant to refer to the collective as. The players I suppose? That still suggests some disconnect though.

  17. ISO #67
    Soul Reader UpsideDownChuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MD4L (#59)
    Anyne worried about lurking scum?
    I've seen lurking mean different things to different people. What precisely do you mean by it here?

    And no, not at this point.

  18. ISO #68
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#44)
    Greetings.

    I see hypoclaims are being discussed. There was a pretty good article on this subject here

    Cliffs

    The downside to leaving cover as suggested by Dante et all is that people out themselves as 'not the cop' by a few things: peeking a wolf as innocent, choosing a peek they wouldn't realistically investigate, or talking about their peek later as though they hadn't peeked them innocent. This can lead to helping the scum team narrow down the cop pool considerably, read the postgame of game 1 here for some insight into how that works.

    My homesite doesn't do this kind of hypoclaiming because we don't typically play with role revealed on death. As such I don't have a ton of experience with it but I have played a couple games with it when playing elsewhere. My experience has been that while articles like the above are helpful, there's no substitute for practicing it over a couple games until you can get the nuances down, and most people leaving cover for the first time tend to screw it up (again see game 1). This is especially true when trying to maintain cover over multiple day phases.

    What I'd suggest is waiting a couple day phases until right before a more high leverage night (and maybe when we have a better idea of the PR's) and then leave convincing cover meant to help for that one night. I think that strikes a good balance between keeping the PR's alive and not outing people as not PR or being a huge distraction to the thread. The article I linked to more or less advocates this anyway, even though it's largely aimed at people more experienced with hypoclaiming.

    @Whodoctor, I'm a little unclear why you suggested the doc/jailer should claim targets (or rather that everyone should claim doc/jailer targets). How do you see that information benefiting the town?
    First I'd like to point out the fake claiming list idea was WhoDoctor. I thought it was a neat idea for something in a game where we have defined setups and reveal on death. So I attempted to make it more workable. Definitely a good conversation starter because everyone, on every site I've played always has a different take on what is worth what risk. You're absolutely right about the risk involved in a group lie as town tho. That's something I took for granted. I assumed with a game of this skill level pretty much everyone was experienced in grouping lies and being able to make the best facade possible for the Mafia to view. That's something I should have stressed more and shouldn't have assumed. I'll do better about that as we progress.

    I do agree that it is a long term strat (hypoclaiming that is), and is not something we start today. Plus we haven't even had a night phase yet lol. But like the article said, its something that is helpful to keep the targets of actual PRs alive even if the player has been killed. Again I just assumed everyone here had lots of experience with setups like this. But you're very right that if a large majority of people just say, "Yeah I have no experience with that. I might screw it up." Then we should forgo it. Which is why I asked for as many opinions as possible on the topic before we tried to implement something like this. So good call there.



    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#46)
    Open question(s) to the group:

    Have you read any of the previous champions games (please keep in mind not to discuss game 2 of this season as it is ongoing)? What were your takeaways if any? How do you plan on dealing with not having meta on other players, and is metareads a big part of your game? How, if at all, are you going to approach this game differently from a regular game?
    I was reading them earlier today while I was waiting so paaaaatiently for this one to start. Not having a meta isnt a big problem for me. I find myself jumping around sites a lot trying to pick up a little from as many places as I can over the years. I love seeing new setups and roles I haven't seen before. So always playing with new people

    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#47)
    Quote Originally Posted by SM1 (#45)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#42)
    Actually the point about the claimed role not mattering makes even more sense to just drop the claimed role. We could literally just say I targeted X last night and not even claim a role! As long as everyone does it, it won't cut down on the possible PRs for the scum at all!

    Yes, this makes far more sense.
    I disagree pretty strongly with this. As a cop I'm going to target very difficult people than I would as a doctor or than I would as a tracker, not to mention a vig. I think the scum would be able to infer quite a bit about roles from this. Do you disagree?
    Usually in my experience in these fake claim lists, protection roles just lie too. Everyone "claims" to have targetted pretty much who they think are scummy. There's little to no information in knowing who a doctor targetted after they died. But lots of information in knowing investigation information. Again like I said earlier I just assumed, which I shouldn't have! Because now I look like an ass. But I would suggest if we do decide to do a hypoclaim it would be a blanket lie from not investigation roles. Basically everyone claims to have targeted who they think are scummy much like the cop would. It conceals roles well in my experience. Of course I would really like to hear more thoughts from you on this since you come from a place where roles aren't revealed on death. That's really rare from my experience. While I have the claiming and risk discussion on like every forum, I've only run into 3-ish (read very few) that didn't reveal on death without a role being in the game that specifically caused that. If everyone followed this format of targetting who they suspect do you feel that would mask the investigation role well? Or would that still be much too uncomfortable for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#48)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#39)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#38)
    ORGANIZER NOTE

    I must insist that you people get avatars :P
    Must I? I do so enjoy being naked. ;P
    Please do, it helps immensely with telling people apart
    I'll find something. Suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Letter El (#50)
    UDC is pretty much where my head is at on hypoclaims. With too many people who haven't done it and the odds that someone on mafia is competent to weed through those sorts of tells, it gives away far more information than we get in return.
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#51)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy
    For example, if there is a Cop right, we all blanket claim whatever. We list our claims, and come day 4, oh my god the cop died night 3 without giving any investigations. Normally that would be 3 confirmed townies we just lost. But with this plan, we know once his role flips, he targeted x, y, and z and he didn't speak up. So he must have gotten innocent on those three people. Bam confirmed townies. Without the list we'd lose that. All the Mafia is going to see before the PR is dead is just a wall of people claiming nonsense. Which is what it is until a PR dies. Its a back up net. It can't be used before the PR dies so it can't endanger any PRs to being revealed until it already doesn't matter. We won't start it today, no one has made any actions yet that we know of. We'd start it Day 2. Does this make more sense or am I just sounding like an idiot. Because you wouldn't be the first person to tell me, "Nah Dante you're a gabbed up gobber m80."
    I hope the article I posted and my cliffs illustrated why the underlined is untrue. Your bio says you've played at over 100 different sites, is that true (or close to true)? I'm a little surprised you haven't come across this objection before.
    I feel I've addressed this in my above replies but if I haven't please just say, "Yo, not so much man." I'll jump on it. But yeah its a hot topic issue everywhere I go, I keep the same stance as, "If the group is experienced its a great edge to have." I assumed that applied here. Hope that clears up what I was thinking.

  19. ISO #69
    Thread Analyst Cmdr Spock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#56)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cmdr Spock (#10)
    There's an ongoing debate in our mafia community about making and leaving lists, some feel it's too easily manipulated by the mob, lets them know what we suspect without giving us anything, while others like using it as a tool to provoke a response, or cover for anyone leaving clues. How do you feel about lists?
    Lists (I assume you mean ordered reads list) are fine. What's better still is in depth explanations of why you scumread and townread certain people. For reasons of triaging time often depth comes at the expense of breadth, so if I had to choose between a couple well thought out reads and a list of the whole roster with no explanation next to each person, I'd certainly choose the former.

    Where'd you go by the way? It's a little unusual to make one post asking a question the disappear when someone answers a couple minutes later.
    Actually by lists in my original post I'd meant suspect lists, though I now realize I'd not specified, and I've done whole cast reads in the past as well. As I've played in the past, I'd felt it good practice to provide cover for the sheriff by throwing out a list, but it isn't really effective if no one else is doing it, and it usually just gets you targeted or accused of Sheriff hunting. Discussing lists just usually winds up being one of those first day icebreaker things.

  20. ISO #70
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#62)
    Quote Originally Posted by MD4L (#57)
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#53)
    Quote Originally Posted by MD4L (#49)
    Checking in.


    Observe and add comments when things are suspicious. It's best to read every post and make notes. That is the Walterfootball strategy.
    Ok thank you. And that's a 'no' to having read previous games?
    You are correct. There are enough different strategies with the current players.Is there something significant you would like to address?
    I had a couple takeaways from the previous games, I've talked a little about the hypoclaim one. Another was that refuge in audacity was a much more common scum tactic then I see in normal play. But the single biggest predictor I saw of a town's success was how they managed the clash of egos from having a bunch of players who were all used to being leaders on their home forums playing in a single game together. The first game we sent a rep to (season 1 game 3) was really instructive in terms of how toxic a town can get when everyone is playing as a cowboy and not working as a team or respecting each other. The scum swept that game handily. Game 1 of this season had similar issues and the scum won it as well.

    Anyway, that's something I wanted to bring up early on even though I'm not totally sure where I'm going with it. Don't be an egotistical prick, I guess? I'll at least be making an effort to play transparently and interactively, and I'm hoping enough other people will do the same.
    This is something I find myself trying to "push" a lot whenever I go to new places. Mafia is a game of lies and all that good jazz. But at no point does that mean we can't be personable to one another. Even tho you disagreed with me, that doesn't mean I have to call you names. It means we get to have a great discussion, which I hope I also made some valid points back for you to think about! That way we get to encourage more discussion

  21. ISO #71
    Soul Reader Agent Of Zion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmdr Spock (#10)
    You still agree very strongly with random lynch? Could you explain what you mean by that precisely?
    Sure, I guess I wasn't very communicative. I was referencing the statement "The math says the information is worth more than no lynch Day 1. Can't argue with math."

    I think it is our best interest to avoid NL days until it comes a time where random lynching has a high probability of leading to disaster.

    The downside of random-lynching is that we select and essentially force a PR to claim, but with only a maximum 23% chance (setup D) of that happening D1 (and increasing) and a 23% chance across all setups to hit mafia (also increasing proportionally) I see the risks as acceptable.

  22. ISO #72
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#62)
    Quote Originally Posted by MD4L (#57)
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#53)
    Quote Originally Posted by MD4L (#49)
    Checking in.


    Observe and add comments when things are suspicious. It's best to read every post and make notes. That is the Walterfootball strategy.
    Ok thank you. And that's a 'no' to having read previous games?
    You are correct. There are enough different strategies with the current players.Is there something significant you would like to address?
    I had a couple takeaways from the previous games, I've talked a little about the hypoclaim one. Another was that refuge in audacity was a much more common scum tactic then I see in normal play. But the single biggest predictor I saw of a town's success was how they managed the clash of egos from having a bunch of players who were all used to being leaders on their home forums playing in a single game together. The first game we sent a rep to (season 1 game 3) was really instructive in terms of how toxic a town can get when everyone is playing as a cowboy and not working as a team or respecting each other. The scum swept that game handily. Game 1 of this season had similar issues and the scum won it as well.

    Anyway, that's something I wanted to bring up early on even though I'm not totally sure where I'm going with it. Don't be an egotistical prick, I guess? I'll at least be making an effort to play transparently and interactively, and I'm hoping enough other people will do the same.
    Agreed. I'm used to playing with walls of text of personal vendetta and players attacking others. In all star games, I like throwing out topics to seek various responses. Each townie has a chance to contribute especially vanillas because the game is always won in the thread. Thingyman did much more game related background information then I see on Walterfootball. This is important because we have a faster indication as to the roles and abilities.

    I'm going to stick to my usual playing style. The final person to post gets my vote today.

  23. ISO #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Of Zion (#71)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cmdr Spock (#10)
    You still agree very strongly with random lynch? Could you explain what you mean by that precisely?
    Sure, I guess I wasn't very communicative. I was referencing the statement "The math says the information is worth more than no lynch Day 1. Can't argue with math."

    I think it is our best interest to avoid NL days until it comes a time where random lynching has a high probability of leading to disaster.

    The downside of random-lynching is that we select and essentially force a PR to claim, but with only a maximum 23% chance (setup D) of that happening D1 (and increasing) and a 23% chance across all setups to hit mafia (also increasing proportionally) I see the risks as acceptable.
    I find myself sticking to my guns on the idea that lynching is pretty much better given the information we have of this moment. No lynch will give us no information, stagnant the town, and give Mafia another shot at us for pretty much free. The ol' break a few eggs to make an scrambled egg gig.

  24. ISO #74
    But we should try to be as least random as possible! With our killing anyways.

  25. ISO #75
    Soul Reader UpsideDownChuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirDante
    I was reading them earlier today while I was waiting so paaaaatiently for this one to start. Not having a meta isnt a big problem for me. I find myself jumping around sites a lot trying to pick up a little from as many places as I can over the years. I love seeing new setups and roles I haven't seen before. So always playing with new people
    Ok thank you. Which ones specifically were you reading earlier today? I ask because I'm trying to understand your assumption that most people in this game would be experienced with these set-ups and/or hypoclaiming. That's largely not been the case with the previous champs games.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirDante
    Basically everyone claims to have targeted who they think are scummy much like the cop would. It conceals roles well in my experience.
    Right but the issue here is that 'the people you think are scummy' tend to be wolves at a decent rate. So when you fakeclaim do you claim a inno peak on them? That's going to out you as not the cop if they're actually a wolf, plus you can't continue to push them without 'dropping cover'. Do you claim a guilty peek? That brings some of it's own issues: you need to push that person really hard and not change your mind since you're pretending you know they're guilty. And if you're wrong you've outted yourself as not the cop. I think this is stuff is a little more sophisticated then your initial treatment gives it credit for, and I'm struggling to square that with your reported experience playing so much across many communities.

    Did you start to question the assumption that most people were experienced with hypoclaims before I'd asked you about it? I kind of feel like it was evident from some of the early posts that a good chunk of the roster wasn't.

    You asked about playing with no role reveals. Basically it just makes every day a risk/rewards scenario for the cop of, do I reveal now and definitely die tonight. Or do I try to get another night of investigations in at the risk of potentially dying and taking my info to the grave. It works ok, it's just a different balance.

  26. ISO #76
    Thread Analyst Cmdr Spock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Of Zion (#71)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cmdr Spock (#10)
    You still agree very strongly with random lynch? Could you explain what you mean by that precisely?
    Sure, I guess I wasn't very communicative. I was referencing the statement "The math says the information is worth more than no lynch Day 1. Can't argue with math."

    I think it is our best interest to avoid NL days until it comes a time where random lynching has a high probability of leading to disaster.

    The downside of random-lynching is that we select and essentially force a PR to claim, but with only a maximum 23% chance (setup D) of that happening D1 (and increasing) and a 23% chance across all setups to hit mafia (also increasing proportionally) I see the risks as acceptable.
    ^ Not my quote.

  27. ISO #77
    Soul Reader UpsideDownChuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirDante
    If everyone followed this format of targetting who they suspect do you feel that would mask the investigation role well? Or would that still be much too uncomfortable for you?
    Sorry I missed this question. I gave my thoughts on what we should be doing at the end of my first post. Basically pick a night, preferably nights 2-4, and try to give really good cover the previous day to help the cop live through that night. Pay attention to how many people are already giving cover (or could theoretically be the actual cop) and maybe don't do it if there a ton of people already doing so. I think it's up to our PR's to survive at least night one on their own, which shouldn't be too difficult given that the mafia have a single kill.

  28. ISO #78
    Soul Reader Agent Of Zion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmdr Spock (#10)
    ^ Not my quote.
    Lol, sorry. Our version of IE has issues clearing multi-quotes, and you were the top quote I first replied to.

  29. ISO #79
    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    Okay, lot to look over since I went away for a bit...

    So question about how this hypo thing will work.

    Suppose we lie and say we're all the doctor. How will the cop identify the mafia people without giving himself away? If he gives himself away that means he can only give us one mafia name.

  30. ISO #80
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#75)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDante
    I was reading them earlier today while I was waiting so paaaaatiently for this one to start. Not having a meta isnt a big problem for me. I find myself jumping around sites a lot trying to pick up a little from as many places as I can over the years. I love seeing new setups and roles I haven't seen before. So always playing with new people
    Ok thank you. Which ones specifically were you reading earlier today? I ask because I'm trying to understand your assumption that most people in this game would be experienced with these set-ups and/or hypoclaiming. That's largely not been the case with the previous champs games.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirDante
    Basically everyone claims to have targeted who they think are scummy much like the cop would. It conceals roles well in my experience.
    Right but the issue here is that 'the people you think are scummy' tend to be wolves at a decent rate. So when you fakeclaim do you claim a inno peak on them? That's going to out you as not the cop if they're actually a wolf, plus you can't continue to push them without 'dropping cover'. Do you claim a guilty peek? That brings some of it's own issues: you need to push that person really hard and not change your mind since you're pretending you know they're guilty. And if you're wrong you've outted yourself as not the cop. I think this is stuff is a little more sophisticated then your initial treatment gives it credit for, and I'm struggling to square that with your reported experience playing so much across many communities.

    Did you start to question the assumption that most people were experienced with hypoclaims before I'd asked you about it? I kind of feel like it was evident from some of the early posts that a good chunk of the roster wasn't.

    You asked about playing with no role reveals. Basically it just makes every day a risk/rewards scenario for the cop of, do I reveal now and definitely die tonight. Or do I try to get another night of investigations in at the risk of potentially dying and taking my info to the grave. It works ok, it's just a different balance.
    I was reading the past season games. I haven't gotten to this seasons games just yet! No spoilo! It's just an assumption from my own experience more than anything else. The thought just didn't click. Experienced players just end up playing with hypo claims, so I just thought to myself "this is just an understood thing." But you're very right on me making an ass of myself on that one. I shouldn't have just assumed people would have lots of games played like this. I hope you won't hold it against me lol.

    You don't claim a read at all. You would just say my target was X last night. Nothing else at all. We don't want to add anything more than the needed information. Giving a result would be pointless and confusing. If you assumed we would add information other than a target to a hypo claim block I see why you're so concerned now. Yeah I see why you're so off-put by this now. I'm suggesting ONLY claiming a hypothetical TARGET. No results, no role, no nothing. So it only gives a target list if an investigation PR dies. I totally get why it looked like an awful idea to you now. I hope I've cleared up any misunderstanding about what I was suggesting now.

    Don't mistake my reported large community list for being apart of a lot of games. Within the decade I've been playing this game, I may have only played a couple of games per community. Most of the communities small interest communities that just happened to have a brief interest in Mafia as a forum game or groups from communities that played instant message Mafia. It's a common joke with my friends that I'm a Mafia slut since I'll play with pretty much anyone, anywhere. I just like the game a lot lol. It's more of a joke than a serious accomplishment, sorry if it came across as me being a e-penis ego whore lol.

    I didn't feel very many people had that impression when the suggestion was braught up. It was and still is early in the thread. So I took the idea from Doctor and ran with making it something we could work with in my opinion.

    That kind of Mafia is super foreign to me. It would be super different to play that way all the time. I just happily take reveals for granted lol.

    Hope this cleared up what I'm actually suggesting! I know some meaning gets lost in text, and I'm a bit scatter brained at times.

  31. ISO #81
    Bandwagoner Minties's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SM1 (#66)
    Quote Originally Posted by Minties (#52)
    I'm all for operation wall of fake claims with the suggestion that we just say targets instead of the actual roles. I have never done that on my home forum or ever in any game, so my experience with it is nill. Day ones are usually just random posting until someone slips up, usually with some kind of semantics like:

    Quote Originally Posted by SM1 (#33)
    "Generally" suspicious. I was alerting the town to the risks involved with role reveals.

    The plan that we all claim cop and list suspects so that the real cop can hide is an interesting idea though.
    We lynched someone in two games for saying things like "to the town" "I'm helping the town" and he ended up being scum. I feel like it conveys disconnect with being actually town and trying hard to appear inno. Maybe not in this case because it's still early, but semantics OP.
    I just use the town as a reference to all of us, I don't know what else we're meant to refer to the collective as. The players I suppose? That still suggests some disconnect though.
    Could just be my home forum, but the trend follows that those that use language that places them "outside the town circle" like a third party observer tends to be mafia. Most people there use inclisive words like us, we, our. Just observing some early game language because I'm a nerd haha.

  32. ISO #82
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#77)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDante
    If everyone followed this format of targetting who they suspect do you feel that would mask the investigation role well? Or would that still be much too uncomfortable for you?
    Sorry I missed this question. I gave my thoughts on what we should be doing at the end of my first post. Basically pick a night, preferably nights 2-4, and try to give really good cover the previous day to help the cop live through that night. Pay attention to how many people are already giving cover (or could theoretically be the actual cop) and maybe don't do it if there a ton of people already doing so. I think it's up to our PR's to survive at least night one on their own, which shouldn't be too difficult given that the mafia have a single kill.
    Yes this is what I was trying to get across as a suggestion for an alternate to the original idea. But failed. We'd just give target, no result, no role. Just I targeted X, Y, Z for these phases or whatever the number of targets should be at that point so we'd have a list of targets in case we do lose an investigator. I'll do better about conveying what I mean.

  33. ISO #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#79)
    Okay, lot to look over since I went away for a bit...

    So question about how this hypo thing will work.

    Suppose we lie and say we're all the doctor. How will the cop identify the mafia people without giving himself away? If he gives himself away that means he can only give us one mafia name.
    I'm suggesting that we don't claim a role or results. We just claim our target when we actually do the hypo claim. Everyone will lie about their target other than investigation or scum targetting roles. Everyone lying will make up that they targeted someone they think is scummy to help mask the cop in the list of results. That way if the investigator role dies, when he flips we can go, "Oh X was the cop lets look at his list. X Y and Z were on his list and he didn't come forward with a guilty, that means that we should treat X Y and Z as innocent results because the cop didn't say anyone was scum before he die."

    That's what I'm suggesting anyways. As a down the road kinda thing.

  34. ISO #84
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#83)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#79)
    Okay, lot to look over since I went away for a bit...

    So question about how this hypo thing will work.

    Suppose we lie and say we're all the doctor. How will the cop identify the mafia people without giving himself away? If he gives himself away that means he can only give us one mafia name.
    I'm suggesting that we don't claim a role or results. We just claim our target when we actually do the hypo claim. Everyone will lie about their target other than investigation or scum targetting roles. Everyone lying will make up that they targeted someone they think is scummy to help mask the cop in the list of results. That way if the investigator role dies, when he flips we can go, "Oh X was the cop lets look at his list. X Y and Z were on his list and he didn't come forward with a guilty, that means that we should treat X Y and Z as innocent results because the cop didn't say anyone was scum before he die."

    That's what I'm suggesting anyways. As a down the road kinda thing.
    I suppose that works if the Cop voted for one of the people on his list, coming forward and stating someone is guilty is a sure fire way to get themselves killed.

  35. ISO #85
    Quote Originally Posted by SM1 (#84)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#83)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#79)
    Okay, lot to look over since I went away for a bit...

    So question about how this hypo thing will work.

    Suppose we lie and say we're all the doctor. How will the cop identify the mafia people without giving himself away? If he gives himself away that means he can only give us one mafia name.
    I'm suggesting that we don't claim a role or results. We just claim our target when we actually do the hypo claim. Everyone will lie about their target other than investigation or scum targetting roles. Everyone lying will make up that they targeted someone they think is scummy to help mask the cop in the list of results. That way if the investigator role dies, when he flips we can go, "Oh X was the cop lets look at his list. X Y and Z were on his list and he didn't come forward with a guilty, that means that we should treat X Y and Z as innocent results because the cop didn't say anyone was scum before he die."

    That's what I'm suggesting anyways. As a down the road kinda thing.
    I suppose that works if the Cop voted for one of the people on his list, coming forward and stating someone is guilty is a sure fire way to get themselves killed.
    Well in my opinion a Cop should come forward as soon as they have a single guilty. Sure they're going to be fired at the following night phase but the game is much easier on town as soon as a single scum dies. It's worth it for a cop to trade his life for lynching a scum successfully.

  36. ISO #86
    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#83)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#79)
    Okay, lot to look over since I went away for a bit...

    So question about how this hypo thing will work.

    Suppose we lie and say we're all the doctor. How will the cop identify the mafia people without giving himself away? If he gives himself away that means he can only give us one mafia name.
    I'm suggesting that we don't claim a role or results. We just claim our target when we actually do the hypo claim. Everyone will lie about their target other than investigation or scum targetting roles. Everyone lying will make up that they targeted someone they think is scummy to help mask the cop in the list of results. That way if the investigator role dies, when he flips we can go, "Oh X was the cop lets look at his list. X Y and Z were on his list and he didn't come forward with a guilty, that means that we should treat X Y and Z as innocent results because the cop didn't say anyone was scum before he die."

    That's what I'm suggesting anyways. As a down the road kinda thing.
    Well my main point stands, and you confirmed it with what someone else said, that means the cop can only point out one mafia. Also gives a list of innocents, but yeah. Not certain that is worth it. I suppose probabilities can be calculated.

  37. ISO #87
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#85)
    Quote Originally Posted by SM1 (#84)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#83)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#79)
    Okay, lot to look over since I went away for a bit...

    So question about how this hypo thing will work.

    Suppose we lie and say we're all the doctor. How will the cop identify the mafia people without giving himself away? If he gives himself away that means he can only give us one mafia name.
    I'm suggesting that we don't claim a role or results. We just claim our target when we actually do the hypo claim. Everyone will lie about their target other than investigation or scum targetting roles. Everyone lying will make up that they targeted someone they think is scummy to help mask the cop in the list of results. That way if the investigator role dies, when he flips we can go, "Oh X was the cop lets look at his list. X Y and Z were on his list and he didn't come forward with a guilty, that means that we should treat X Y and Z as innocent results because the cop didn't say anyone was scum before he die."

    That's what I'm suggesting anyways. As a down the road kinda thing.
    I suppose that works if the Cop voted for one of the people on his list, coming forward and stating someone is guilty is a sure fire way to get themselves killed.
    Well in my opinion a Cop should come forward as soon as they have a single guilty. Sure they're going to be fired at the following night phase but the game is much easier on town as soon as a single scum dies. It's worth it for a cop to trade his life for lynching a scum successfully.
    I disagree. Once he knows someone is guilty he can analyse their voting patterns and potentially uncover other guilty parties.

    I'd only suggest they come forward if they uncover the Godfather.

  38. ISO #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#86)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#83)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#79)
    Okay, lot to look over since I went away for a bit...

    So question about how this hypo thing will work.

    Suppose we lie and say we're all the doctor. How will the cop identify the mafia people without giving himself away? If he gives himself away that means he can only give us one mafia name.
    I'm suggesting that we don't claim a role or results. We just claim our target when we actually do the hypo claim. Everyone will lie about their target other than investigation or scum targetting roles. Everyone lying will make up that they targeted someone they think is scummy to help mask the cop in the list of results. That way if the investigator role dies, when he flips we can go, "Oh X was the cop lets look at his list. X Y and Z were on his list and he didn't come forward with a guilty, that means that we should treat X Y and Z as innocent results because the cop didn't say anyone was scum before he die."

    That's what I'm suggesting anyways. As a down the road kinda thing.
    Well my main point stands, and you confirmed it with what someone else said, that means the cop can only point out one mafia. Also gives a list of innocents, but yeah. Not certain that is worth it. I suppose probabilities can be calculated.
    Alternately we don't do the claim list at all. Play it super safe. We still run the risk of the investigator role (if we have one) getting blind fired and then giving us zero results since he's dead. If he hangs onto a guilty, and gets greedy for more, then we're continuing to play the game of "hope the investigator doesn't die."

    It's a risk on either side. That's Mafia tho, a game of risks and lies, with a healthy attachment of luck.

    My preference is to hypo claim. I've made that pretty clear. But if the majority of the game wants to play to hope the investigator just doesn't get shot then I'm happy to do that too. Its just my preference to do something rather than nothing. Not that its definitely better, just my taste I suppose.

  39. ISO #89
    Low Hanging Fruit DaPanch's Avatar
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    Really gonna have to get used to the pace of the game with my work schedule.

    Here's a quick rundown so hit me if I missed something.

    Never done mass claim like that.

    Initial thought was not a fan because unless we are sure of a cop set up this point is moot and would only give a way for mafia to read town powers with their targets.

    I also read that someone said they needed a counter if we werent going this route but I don't think we need a mechanic or trick the game into getting a town victory.

    Also loving the international bios guys.

  40. ISO #90
    Role Description:

    The Godfather will be viewed as town if investigated by a Cop ability, regardless of their actual alignment.

    ??? I'm not sure how we could count on revealing a god father with a typical investigator with a faction shared kill ??? I'm confused by your statement SM1.

  41. ISO #91
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#90)
    Role Description:

    The Godfather will be viewed as town if investigated by a Cop ability, regardless of their actual alignment.

    ??? I'm not sure how we could count on revealing a god father with a typical investigator with a faction shared kill ??? I'm confused by your statement SM1.
    Also there is no God father in the setup list?

    Yes the investigator would then use the known guilty to use to gather information throughout the day phase but he would not just let the town randomly lynch someone while he had a guilty. The cop should certainly act on his information instead of sitting on it. That doesn't make any sense to me SM1. I am confused.

  42. ISO #92
    Quote Originally Posted by DaPanch (#89)
    Really gonna have to get used to the pace of the game with my work schedule.

    Here's a quick rundown so hit me if I missed something.

    Never done mass claim like that.

    Initial thought was not a fan because unless we are sure of a cop set up this point is moot and would only give a way for mafia to read town powers with their targets.

    I also read that someone said they needed a counter if we werent going this route but I don't think we need a mechanic or trick the game into getting a town victory.

    Also loving the international bios guys.
    We are discussing about it down the road from now. It would be a day 3 kinda thing probably. Not something we'd do today or tomorrow.

  43. ISO #93
    Soul Reader UpsideDownChuck's Avatar
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    You don't claim a read at all. You would just say my target was X last night. Nothing else at all. We don't want to add anything more than the needed information. Giving a result would be pointless and confusing. If you assumed we would add information other than a target to a hypo claim block I see why you're so concerned now. Yeah I see why you're so off-put by this now. I'm suggesting ONLY claiming a hypothetical TARGET. No results, no role, no nothing. So it only gives a target list if an investigation PR dies. I totally get why it looked like an awful idea to you now. I hope I've cleared up any misunderstanding about what I was suggesting now.
    This doesn't seem like it would work. I'd anticipate people's (fake)result will be implied by how they act afterwards. If I claim "MD41 was my target", and then proceed to push other people and largely ignore MD4L then implicitly my peek on MD4L was inno (or that I tracked him nowhere, or whatever). Or if I do push him then I'm claiming a guilty peek effectively. It seems like it would still make it clear who wasn't the cop at the expense of potentially losing some clarity when the cop dies, which was the original point of this no?

    Have you seen it done this way your proposing it before? Can you explain how that works?

    I'd also like to know which games specifically you read, saying it was the earlier seasons doesn't narrow it down a whole lot.

  44. ISO #94
    Soul Reader UpsideDownChuck's Avatar
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    Well in my opinion a Cop should come forward as soon as they have a single guilty. Sure they're going to be fired at the following night phase but the game is much easier on town as soon as a single scum dies. It's worth it for a cop to trade his life for lynching a scum successfully.
    So again, people who don't come forward, are implicitly claiming an inno result or that they're not the cop, correct?

  45. ISO #95
    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#88)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#86)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#83)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#79)
    Okay, lot to look over since I went away for a bit...

    So question about how this hypo thing will work.

    Suppose we lie and say we're all the doctor. How will the cop identify the mafia people without giving himself away? If he gives himself away that means he can only give us one mafia name.
    I'm suggesting that we don't claim a role or results. We just claim our target when we actually do the hypo claim. Everyone will lie about their target other than investigation or scum targetting roles. Everyone lying will make up that they targeted someone they think is scummy to help mask the cop in the list of results. That way if the investigator role dies, when he flips we can go, "Oh X was the cop lets look at his list. X Y and Z were on his list and he didn't come forward with a guilty, that means that we should treat X Y and Z as innocent results because the cop didn't say anyone was scum before he die."

    That's what I'm suggesting anyways. As a down the road kinda thing.
    Well my main point stands, and you confirmed it with what someone else said, that means the cop can only point out one mafia. Also gives a list of innocents, but yeah. Not certain that is worth it. I suppose probabilities can be calculated.
    Alternately we don't do the claim list at all. Play it super safe. We still run the risk of the investigator role (if we have one) getting blind fired and then giving us zero results since he's dead. If he hangs onto a guilty, and gets greedy for more, then we're continuing to play the game of "hope the investigator doesn't die."

    It's a risk on either side. That's Mafia tho, a game of risks and lies, with a healthy attachment of luck.

    My preference is to hypo claim. I've made that pretty clear. But if the majority of the game wants to play to hope the investigator just doesn't get shot then I'm happy to do that too. Its just my preference to do something rather than nothing. Not that its definitely better, just my taste I suppose.
    You *do* have a point. This means the cop will give us *some* information, whether he ever finds some mafia or not.

    I'd suggest he vote for his target if they are mafia because that gives him a chance to live on. He can keep on going to hunt for another, or he dies and the mafia is revealed. May also fake out the mafia if someone else accidentally does it correctly.

  46. ISO #96
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#90)
    Role Description:

    The Godfather will be viewed as town if investigated by a Cop ability, regardless of their actual alignment.

    ??? I'm not sure how we could count on revealing a god father with a typical investigator with a faction shared kill ??? I'm confused by your statement SM1.
    Actually missed that. To be honest I haven't looked into the roles too closely as it's all rather confusing to me this early in the game. Still getting my head around it. The gist of my post was that seering a more important evil than your run of the mill goon would be the only thing I'd encourage the cop to come out over.

  47. ISO #97
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#91)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#90)
    Role Description:

    The Godfather will be viewed as town if investigated by a Cop ability, regardless of their actual alignment.

    ??? I'm not sure how we could count on revealing a god father with a typical investigator with a faction shared kill ??? I'm confused by your statement SM1.
    Also there is no God father in the setup list?

    Yes the investigator would then use the known guilty to use to gather information throughout the day phase but he would not just let the town randomly lynch someone while he had a guilty. The cop should certainly act on his information instead of sitting on it. That doesn't make any sense to me SM1. I am confused.
    Sorry I disagree. Sacrificing the cop for one goon is not worth it unless we have multiple cops. I'd rather the cop risk the death of a good - especially with so many villagers - in order to gain more information to help the village.

  48. ISO #98
    Quote Originally Posted by SM1 (#96)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#90)
    Role Description:

    The Godfather will be viewed as town if investigated by a Cop ability, regardless of their actual alignment.

    ??? I'm not sure how we could count on revealing a god father with a typical investigator with a faction shared kill ??? I'm confused by your statement SM1.
    Actually missed that. To be honest I haven't looked into the roles too closely as it's all rather confusing to me this early in the game. Still getting my head around it. The gist of my post was that seering a more important evil than your run of the mill goon would be the only thing I'd encourage the cop to come out over.
    As I can't edit I'll tack on - I've read the OP and follow up post, but don't see anywhere a description of the roles that could be in the game, only their names.

  49. ISO #99
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#93)
    You don't claim a read at all. You would just say my target was X last night. Nothing else at all. We don't want to add anything more than the needed information. Giving a result would be pointless and confusing. If you assumed we would add information other than a target to a hypo claim block I see why you're so concerned now. Yeah I see why you're so off-put by this now. I'm suggesting ONLY claiming a hypothetical TARGET. No results, no role, no nothing. So it only gives a target list if an investigation PR dies. I totally get why it looked like an awful idea to you now. I hope I've cleared up any misunderstanding about what I was suggesting now.
    This doesn't seem like it would work. I'd anticipate people's (fake)result will be implied by how they act afterwards. If I claim "MD41 was my target", and then proceed to push other people and largely ignore MD4L then implicitly my peek on MD4L was inno (or that I tracked him nowhere, or whatever). Or if I do push him then I'm claiming a guilty peek effectively. It seems like it would still make it clear who wasn't the cop at the expense of potentially losing some clarity when the cop dies, which was the original point of this no?

    Have you seen it done this way your proposing it before? Can you explain how that works?

    I'd also like to know which games specifically you read, saying it was the earlier seasons doesn't narrow it down a whole lot.
    The only point I can see dependably getting out of it is a revealed, confirmed investigators targets. At least that's the only thing I've ever expected to get out of it. Just a small safety net to have the targets if an investigator gets blind fired. It's not a game winning thing, just something that would help cushion the blow if we did lose an investigator. As far as the push to not push from target, I think thats a behavior thing that the Mafia will end up having to chase more ghosts than they'd see rewards with. It would remain unclear who is actually giving results vs who isn't and the Mafia would still be guessing like they are already.

    I have seen it done this way before, just not in a Matrix setup game like this. When I've seen it done is in a game with a high % of PRs. So as far as an example that matches this case, I don't have one. Which is why I didn't come up with the idea initially. It works pretty much how I've laid out. Starting day whatever the group agrees on, the player list just starts the day by saying I targeted X night Y, X night Y, and X last night, then the day goes on as normal. It's a pretty simple small thing. But I think it could be applied here in a similar manner without exposing much at all. However if a bunch of players aren't comfortable with following tho we definitely shouldn't. I think we're on the same page about that point.

    I read the finals of Season 1, and started the exp game thread for season 1/2 but have not finished. Have you read them all ?

  50. ISO #100
    Quote Originally Posted by UpsideDownChuck (#94)
    Well in my opinion a Cop should come forward as soon as they have a single guilty. Sure they're going to be fired at the following night phase but the game is much easier on town as soon as a single scum dies. It's worth it for a cop to trade his life for lynching a scum successfully.
    So again, people who don't come forward, are implicitly claiming an inno result or that they're not the cop, correct?
    Yep. It would be an assumption that no news is good news.

    Quote Originally Posted by SM1 (#98)
    Quote Originally Posted by SM1 (#96)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#90)
    Role Description:

    The Godfather will be viewed as town if investigated by a Cop ability, regardless of their actual alignment.

    ??? I'm not sure how we could count on revealing a god father with a typical investigator with a faction shared kill ??? I'm confused by your statement SM1.
    Actually missed that. To be honest I haven't looked into the roles too closely as it's all rather confusing to me this early in the game. Still getting my head around it. The gist of my post was that seering a more important evil than your run of the mill goon would be the only thing I'd encourage the cop to come out over.
    Ah. I understand now. That makes more sense.

    As I can't edit I'll tack on - I've read the OP and follow up post, but don't see anywhere a description of the roles that could be in the game, only their names.
    There's a section on the site for roles that you can see. Here you go!

    http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/...e/mafia-roles/

    Quote Originally Posted by SM1 (#97)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#91)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#90)
    Role Description:

    The Godfather will be viewed as town if investigated by a Cop ability, regardless of their actual alignment.

    ??? I'm not sure how we could count on revealing a god father with a typical investigator with a faction shared kill ??? I'm confused by your statement SM1.
    Also there is no God father in the setup list?

    Yes the investigator would then use the known guilty to use to gather information throughout the day phase but he would not just let the town randomly lynch someone while he had a guilty. The cop should certainly act on his information instead of sitting on it. That doesn't make any sense to me SM1. I am confused.
    Sorry I disagree. Sacrificing the cop for one goon is not worth it unless we have multiple cops. I'd rather the cop risk the death of a good - especially with so many villagers - in order to gain more information to help the village.
    Never be sorry to disagree. Mafia is much more fun with debates about how to progress. People just saying yes to one guy is really boring. We'll just have to see how the investigator plays it then! I'm a bit of a coward and would just come forward as cop lol.

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Role of the Day
Time Bandit

The Time Bandit may each night submit a list of who they would have roleblocked on previous nights as well as on the current night. The list can be amended each night. Once per game during day, the Time Bandit can choose to sacrifice themselves by posting a public announcement in the thread. This will cause the Time Bandit to die and will cause all the roleblocks on their most recently submitted list to take place retroactively as if they'd been actually performed on the nights in question, causing any deaths and/or actions to be affected accordingly.