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Thread: A Traitor Among Traitors 13er Setup (3/17)

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    A Traitor Among Traitors 13er Setup (3/17)

    EDIT: For the final draft of the setup that will be run on March 17th, scroll down to post 74.

    I ran a game in January 2016 on another site that was successful, and I don't know why I never ran it again. I feel like it would be a good way to break the ice after a long hiatus of hosting/playing. Take a few minutes to skim the game thread here and let me know what you like and/or dislike about the setup. Also let me know if you'd like to be invited to play it. I will be running it on MU, incorporating whatever constructive criticism I can obtain from this thread, on March 18th.

    The Setup

    9 villagers
    --1 seer will be given a randed n0 Villager peek.
    --6 vanillagers have a vest that may be worn one night only to guarantee survival that night.
    --1 backup seer is initially told the lie that he is a vanillager with a vest, but if the seer dies he is then told that he is the new seer.
    ----If the seer is lynched and the backup seer survives the night, the backup seer gets a peek.
    ----If the seer is night killed, the backup seer must survive the following day and night to get a peek.
    --1 mayor -- if lynched, the 2nd-place votegetter gets lynched instead. If the vote at lynch is tied, it will not be revealed whether the lynched player was chosen at random or because the other player was the mayor.


    3 wolves with 24/7 chat via Discord only and a team night kill submitted via Discord.

    1 neutral serial killer (SK) who appears to the wolves as a wolf, appears to the seer as a wolf, is revealed to everyone when lynched as a wolf, participates in wolfchat, and has his own night kill submitted via PM.

    The night kills by the wolf team and by the SK must be of a villager unless all villagers are already dead. Everyone in wolfchat must agree to the wolf team's target or it will be randed, and the SK will then choose his target.

    A Vanillager's vest will malfunction unless the Vanillager had left a clear fake villager peek on d1. Vanillagers are not informed if their vests are hit.

    WIN CONDITIONS:
    This game is designed to give each of the three teams a 1 in 3 chance of winning.
    --The SK wins when all villagers are dead and the number of wolves alive is 0 or 1.
    --The wolves win when the SK is dead and they achieve parity with the village.
    --The village wins when the only players alive are villagers.

    If and when the game reaches a point where the Village cannot win, any remaining Villagers shall be modkilled.

    Wolfchat is terminated and prohibited when all Villagers are dead.

    Lynch votes may not be changed if the only remaining players are the three wolves and the SK non-villagers. If a wolf is then lynched, each of the last 2 wolves will submit a night kill. The one NOT killed by the SK decides the wolf team's night kill:
    --if it is the SK then the wolves win.
    --if it is the same wolf that the SK killed then the SK wins

    Lynch votes also may not be changed when the only players alive are two villagers and one non-villager. If in this situation a villager is lynched and the non-villager is
    --a wolf, the wolves win (dead SK and parity achieved).
    --the SK and the remaining villager has
    ----no vest, the SK wins.
    ----a vest, it is a tie between the Village and the SK.


    The winning team in this setup as played was:
    1 neutral serial killer (SK) , played by Ace of Spaids
    Last edited by Zork; February 16th, 2019 at 08:22 PM.

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    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    Mayor could just be an innochild other than that seems fine. Village could probably use some extra VTs. Maybe a Hunter in a larger version.

    Current iteration nuts say SK sided esp cause mafia don't have tools to combat SK and potential for SK spiting is worrying.

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    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    The VT vest mechanic is probably better moved into a singular role, jk perhaps.

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    setup looks good but how do you know mafia won't decide to kill one of their own

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    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    The sk/villa tie clause is aids distilled

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    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#2)
    Mayor could just be an innochild other than that seems fine. Village could probably use some extra VTs. Maybe a Hunter in a larger version.

    Current iteration nuts say SK sided esp cause mafia don't have tools to combat SK and potential for SK spiting is worrying.
    How can the SK spite?

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    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#5)
    The sk/villa tie clause is aids distilled
    How would you improve it?

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    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noah101 (#4)
    setup looks good but how do you know mafia won't decide to kill one of their own
    They can't.

    "The night kills by the wolf team and by the SK must be of a villager..."

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    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#2)
    Mayor could just be an innochild other than that seems fine. Village could probably use some extra VTs. Maybe a Hunter in a larger version.

    Current iteration nuts say SK sided esp cause mafia don't have tools to combat SK and potential for SK spiting is worrying.
    1. Of course a larger version would be preferable, but it's hard to get numbers to sign up for games like this. If there is a large waiting list for this game I would definitely re-engineer it and run it larger the next month.

    2. I hate innochilds so that's out. lol

    3. Mafia DO have tools to combat SK, it's called reading the game thread and the wolf chat, picking up on who is nudging what in which direction. If you mean like actual game tools, yeah, I'm open to suggestions. ALTHOUGH, perhaps it would be spicier and more in line with what you envision if the SK had to pick his/her target FIRST (secretly of course) and THEN come to a consensus with the other wolves as to whom they should pick. Wolves would then have an additional piece of info to pick up on, like, for example, SK picks Player A for death. That's locked in. Then wolfchat decides they are going to kill either Player A or Player B and discussion ensues. SK obviously wants to push Player B. If he succeeds in swinging the argument for wolves to kill B, it will be suspicious when both A and B are dead in the morning! The short-term victory makes it that much harder for SK to win end-game when it matters most. Alternatively, the SK can win just by dodging lynches by the town of the wolves and being the last "wolf" standing. Remember, the SK is revealed to everyone AS A WOLF when lynched. This means none of the players, not even the true wolves, can be certain if/when the SK is dead. The paranoia continues among the wolves even after the SK is dead! That's what's great about this setup.

    And the setup works. It worked beautifully once, it can work even more beautifully again with some tweaking.
    Last edited by Zork; February 8th, 2019 at 02:05 AM.

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    the wolves in wolfchat have to hunt for a serial killer within themselves?
    Quote Originally Posted by Maki Harukawa
    You can read sheep?
    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#67)
    Stop calling things natural. This world isnt natural. You can get butt implants and shit
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    like BRUH i hope hallia come back and call u out for spamming more every time u waste a post jerkin it to agrandes tiddies


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  11. ISO #11
    --1 mayor -- if lynched, the 2nd-place votegetter gets lynched instead. If the vote at lynch is tied, it will not be revealed whether the lynched player was chosen at random or because the other player was the mayor.

    i like the idea because it will encourage people to tie the votes

    welcome back zork =)

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    Thumbs Up Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    All wolves must agree their NK in wolfchat


    But when villagers are gone, there is no wolfchat.

    Can you explain how the process of targetting the NK works during an SK hunt?

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    Thumbs Up Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Do they just have to lynch the SK, and no NK?

    Because it seems like the SK can just play full wolf sided until the end, and its really really hard to tell who he is?

    He has the advantage at final 4(i think?) so he never needs to bus. How do you find him exactly?
    Last edited by Apoc; February 8th, 2019 at 05:46 AM.

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    Thumbs Up Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    I think allowing the wolves to NK each other before the village is dead would be interesting/fun

    SK still restricted to only villagers until the end

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    Thumbs Up Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    What if one of the 4 wolves was an SK seer who only gets a single peek, when all the villagers are dead...

    Then the SK has to try and bus him discreetly during the game

    Chaos


    EDIT:
    Probably too strong. What about a wolf inno of sorts. When the villager s are dead, he reveals to be a wolf in the thread. BUT he his given a goon role PM. Only the SK knows which wolf is the inno
    Last edited by Apoc; February 8th, 2019 at 05:50 AM.

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    Thumbs Up Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Basically, thw idea is to give the SK some kind of TMI so the wolves can hunt him.

    I dunno!! Random ideas



    I guess you can hunt him based on his kills, but seems super easy to WIFOM that, and frame a bro, especially if you are not in danger yourself.
    Last edited by Apoc; February 8th, 2019 at 05:51 AM.

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    Thumbs Up Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Also, i'd just call him a "Wolf Traitor" rather than SK. But thats just me

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    Thumbs Up Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#9)
    Remember, the SK is revealed to everyone AS A WOLF when lynched. This means none of the players, not even the true wolves, can be certain if/when the SK is dead. The paranoia continues among the wolves even after the SK is dead!
    i guess my "let them kill each other" idea doesnt work with this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#14)
    I think allowing the wolves to NK each other before the village is dead would be interesting/fun

    SK still restricted to only villagers until the end
    I guess this works better without this bit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#9)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#2)
    Mayor could just be an innochild other than that seems fine. Village could probably use some extra VTs. Maybe a Hunter in a larger version.

    Current iteration nuts say SK sided esp cause mafia don't have tools to combat SK and potential for SK spiting is worrying.
    1. Of course a larger version would be preferable, but it's hard to get numbers to sign up for games like this. If there is a large waiting list for this game I would definitely re-engineer it and run it larger the next month.

    2. I hate innochilds so that's out. lol

    3. Mafia DO have tools to combat SK, it's called reading the game thread and the wolf chat, picking up on who is nudging what in which direction. If you mean like actual game tools, yeah, I'm open to suggestions. ALTHOUGH, perhaps it would be spicier and more in line with what you envision if the SK had to pick his/her target FIRST (secretly of course) and THEN come to a consensus with the other wolves as to whom they should pick. Wolves would then have an additional piece of info to pick up on, like, for example, SK picks Player A for death. That's locked in. Then wolfchat decides they are going to kill either Player A or Player B and discussion ensues. SK obviously wants to push Player B. If he succeeds in swinging the argument for wolves to kill B, it will be suspicious when both A and B are dead in the morning! The short-term victory makes it that much harder for SK to win end-game when it matters most. Alternatively, the SK can win just by dodging lynches by the town of the wolves and being the last "wolf" standing. Remember, the SK is revealed to everyone AS A WOLF when lynched. This means none of the players, not even the true wolves, can be certain if/when the SK is dead. The paranoia continues among the wolves even after the SK is dead! That's what's great about this setup.

    And the setup works. It worked beautifully once, it can work even more beautifully again with some tweaking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sheepsaysmeep (#10)
    the wolves in wolfchat have to hunt for a serial killer within themselves?
    They did in January 2016 and they will again in March 2019 mwoo hah hah hah, diabolical, I know...

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    Quote Originally Posted by annulus (#11)
    --1 mayor -- if lynched, the 2nd-place votegetter gets lynched instead. If the vote at lynch is tied, it will not be revealed whether the lynched player was chosen at random or because the other player was the mayor.

    i like the idea because it will encourage people to tie the votes

    welcome back zork =)
    cool beans, thanks annulus

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    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#12)
    All wolves must agree their NK in wolfchat


    But when villagers are gone, there is no wolfchat.

    Can you explain how the process of targetting the NK works during an SK hunt?
    Sure. I think you are talking about once the Villagers are all dead. Until that point, from a Villager's standpoint, it's just a hunt for Non-Villagers straight up. From a True Wolf's standpoint, it's mostly about steering clear of the noose. It would be way too risky to try to engineer a lynch of the SK because you don't really know for sure whether that player is the SK or a fellow Wolf, and even if you're right, you won't get the information to tell you you're right, as they will flip "wolf" regardless.

    However, once the Villagers are all dead, it's game on, as from a True Wolf's standpoint, you approach the problem as a Villager (uninformed majority). Votes may not be changed. Wolves are trying to lynch the SK. The SK is trying to lynch a wolf.

    --If it's 2 wolves vs the SK:
    ----Wolf lynched? SK achieved his/her win condition of parity.
    ----SK lynched? Wolves win.
    --If it's 3 wolves vs the SK:
    ----SK lynched? Wolves win.
    ----Wolf lynched?
    ------Wolf #1 PMs me who he/she thinks is the SK.
    ------Wolf #2 PMs me who he/she thinks is the SK.
    ------SK PMs me which wolf he/she wants to kill.
    ------If the Wolf who was spared by the SK:
    --------correctly identifies the SK, the Wolves win.
    --------incorrectly identifies the SK, the SK wins.

    Bussing takes on a whole new meaning in this setup.
    Last edited by Zork; February 8th, 2019 at 10:07 AM.

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    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#13)
    Do they just have to lynch the SK, and no NK?

    Because it seems like the SK can just play full wolf sided until the end, and its really really hard to tell who he is?

    He has the advantage at final 4(i think?) so he never needs to bus. How do you find him exactly?
    Well you pay attention as a wolf to whether any of your fellow wolfchat members are bussing anyone. Why are they doing that? To gain villager cred and be a "deep wolf?" To make it easier to win end game (F3 instead of F4)? All of the above? What are they pushing in wolfchat? What are they pushing in mainchat? How do wolves find seers? They find the non-wolf who seems to know a bit too much. It comes across in between the lines. You hunt for the SK the same way. It's not meant to be easy. He dies, he's done. He has no teammate to drag his team across the finish line when he dies.

    The SK is supposed to play full wolf sided until all the villagers are dead. In fact, the rules require it. But within that strategy is a chance to do all the other things that happen in a vanilla game (bussing, pretend thunderdomes between two wolves, etc.).

    As for having the advantage at F4, I would disagree. He has to engineer two mislynches instead of just one. I'd rather dodge one noose than two, just saying.

    The only way to really answer your question of how you find him is to read the end game of the linked game and see if you can figure it out as you go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#14)
    I think allowing the wolves to NK each other before the village is dead would be interesting/fun

    SK still restricted to only villagers until the end
    OK so let's play this scenario out.

    The SK would have to be required to submit his target after the wolves submit theirs. That's how I had it in the original game but based on posts in this thread already I decided to change it to BEFORE. But let's go ahead and say AFTER for the sake of argument.

    The rules would also have to be changed to allow majority rule as to the NK. You can never have a designated NKer nor can you allow last one to submit to decide it, because the SK could try to be the last one to submit, and that's not fair, especially if you allow wolves to kill each other. You can't have a designated NKer because they will figure out who the SK is--it's the one who never is designated NKer. But let's see what happens with your suggestion:

    It's n1. Alex, Bobby, Charlie, and David are all in wolfchat. David is the SK.

    Alex targets Bobby. Bobby targets him right back. (This is in wolfchat discussion as they are trying to come to a consensus on who the NK should be). Charlie smells a rat in David. David T-domes back at Charlie.

    That's one vote for each. Meanwhile, villagers--their common enemy--are alive and kicking. The wolves are in-fighting and reducing their KP against the Village to mere mislynching.

    OK so who wins. Is it randed based on the 1-1-1-1 tie?

    I think that rule change would make the game too pro-Village, because now the wolves have to dodge each other, not just the lynch. It's bad enough the villagers have vests, would still be inbalanced even if they didn't. And super unfair to the SK, who has to dodge lynches AND nk shots? Plus I think even with your rule change it would be negative EV for the wolves to self-immolate as the risk is too great of just killing off what precious few teammates you have to begin with, and plus too great a chance it gets randed due to tie.

    I do dig the internal drama your suggestion creates, but my setup has that same drama, just deferred to end game.

    What I'm afraid of is that when I run this in March the SK gets lynched d1 and turns it into a boring vanilla game the rest of the way. But even then the wolves are still paranoid of each other.

    I do have an idea to help. I think one of the wolves should be a one-time tracker who can target only another member of wolfchat. The SK should have a one-time ninja. So if the tracker picks the right wolfchat member to target, and that target doesn't use his/her ninja on that night, the SK would be outed to that tracker. But when the tracker reports his/her results to wolfchat, how will the other two wolves know whether that is the truth or a lie? It could be the SK framing a wolf. It could be a wolf FPSing. Ya know? Also, the tracker could get a result of "Johnny visited no one" but the tracker wouldn't know whether that means Johnny is a fellow wolf (probably, but not for sure) or if Johnny is the SK and used ninja that same night.
    Last edited by Zork; February 8th, 2019 at 10:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#15)
    What if one of the 4 wolves was an SK seer who only gets a single peek, when all the villagers are dead...

    Then the SK has to try and bus him discreetly during the game

    Chaos


    EDIT:
    Probably too strong. What about a wolf inno of sorts. When the villager s are dead, he reveals to be a wolf in the thread. BUT he his given a goon role PM. Only the SK knows which wolf is the inno
    I like your creativity, but before reading your post here, your previous post inspired me to what I think is an even better idea. Give a wolf a 1x tracker that may be used only on another member of wolfchat. Give the SK a 1x ninja. Problem solved?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#17)
    Also, i'd just call him a "Wolf Traitor" rather than SK. But thats just me
    I'll just call him an apoc how's that

    seriously tho wolf traitor is better, consider it done

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#18)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#9)
    Remember, the SK is revealed to everyone AS A WOLF when lynched. This means none of the players, not even the true wolves, can be certain if/when the SK is dead. The paranoia continues among the wolves even after the SK is dead!
    i guess my "let them kill each other" idea doesnt work with this
    well if your idea were to be implemented, then of course that rule could be tweaked so that the Traitor IS revealed as such but only if he/she is killed at the hand of a Wolf

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    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    I am SK. Wolves figure out who I am. I out the wolf team, giving village the win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#7)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#5)
    The sk/villa tie clause is aids distilled
    How would you improve it?
    SK wins

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#28)
    I am SK. Wolves figure out who I am. I out the wolf team, giving village the win.
    The incentive for the wolves not to lose the game in this manner is for the wolves to play their suspicions close to the vest while any villagers remain alive so that the SK does not know whether he is discovered or not.

    The incentive for the SK not to lose the game in this manner is to hold steady and continue to play as a wolf would play. How many times has a Townie tunneled on you when you were also Town early in a game day only to find someone else to latch onto by day's end? Suspicions and wolfchat accusations are cheap. A true wolf would never dare out the SK in the game thread because it would be a sure ticket to being lynched forthwith.

    But let's play it out anyway, as if those incentives were not sufficient, which they are:

    The true wolves unanimously decide Manti the SK is in fact Manti the SK. They say as much in wolfchat. Manti the SK in a fit of rage makes the case for why each of the other wolfchat players are wolves. Maybe the Village buys it. Maybe they wonder about TMI, which is surely the case those on the list will make. Any player could make such a list--it doesn't make it valid. Many players, particularly villagers, would response to such an "outing" by voting to lynch the outer. After all, the implication is that the person posting it is a SK, and it is in every other player's win condition to kill the SK, so ez game. The SK flips as "wolf," leaving absolutely every living player without certainty as to whether the SK is dead or a wolf trying to get deep wolf points or a villager FPSing and getting semi-lucky.

  31. ISO #31
    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#29)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#7)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#5)
    The sk/villa tie clause is aids distilled
    How would you improve it?
    SK wins
    Just to refresh everyone's recollection, you are talking about the following situation:

    --We are at F3 (2 Town players and 1 SK).
    --Town Player A is lynched.
    --Town Player B still has a vest.

    Instead of a tie, the following tie breaker is proposed so that a clear winner may be determined:

    --At the end of d1, every living Townie (8 or 9 players) PMs me a list of all 11 other players from Towniest (top) to Evilest (bottom).
    --Each player receives a point, plus additional points equal to the number of positions above the bottom position in which the player's name is placed.
    --If Town Player B has more points than the SK, the Town wins. Otherwise the SK wins.

  32. ISO #32
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#31)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#29)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#7)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#5)
    The sk/villa tie clause is aids distilled
    How would you improve it?
    SK wins
    Just to refresh everyone's recollection, you are talking about the following situation:

    --We are at F3 (2 Town players and 1 SK).
    --Town Player A is lynched.
    --Town Player B still has a vest.

    Instead of a tie, the following tie breaker is proposed so that a clear winner may be determined:

    --At the end of d1, every living Townie (8 or 9 players) PMs me a list of all 11 other players from Towniest (top) to Evilest (bottom).
    --Each player receives a point, plus additional points equal to the number of positions above the bottom position in which the player's name is placed.
    --If Town Player B has more points than the SK, the Town wins. Otherwise the SK wins.
    Or the sk could just win. No need for complicated $#@!

  33. ISO #33
    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    If you want to see the Grand Reveal Post at the end of the endgame of the January 2016 game, click here.

  34. ISO #34
    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#32)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#31)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#29)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#7)
    How would you improve it?
    SK wins
    Just to refresh everyone's recollection, you are talking about the following situation:

    --We are at F3 (2 Town players and 1 SK).
    --Town Player A is lynched.
    --Town Player B still has a vest.

    Instead of a tie, the following tie breaker is proposed so that a clear winner may be determined:

    --At the end of d1, every living Townie (8 or 9 players) PMs me a list of all 11 other players from Towniest (top) to Evilest (bottom).
    --Each player receives a point, plus additional points equal to the number of positions above the bottom position in which the player's name is placed.
    --If Town Player B has more points than the SK, the Town wins. Otherwise the SK wins.
    Or the sk could just win. No need for complicated $#@!
    Apoc was mentioning how hard it is to suss out the SK under the current setup. Giving the SK the win every time in that scenario further moves the needle in a pro-SK direction. If I were to set an arbitrary winner I'd be inclined to give it to the Town, if anything. The tie-breaker I proposed was simply to keep the balance as-is. It's not complicated. Players make lists from Green to Red all the time, that's all it is.

  35. ISO #35
    Loansharking Blot Test Newcomb's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#1)
    A Vanillager's vest will malfunction unless the Vanillager had left a clear fake villager peek on d1. Vanillagers are not informed if their vests are hit.
    What’s the intention behind this wrinkle?

  36. ISO #36
    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#35)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#1)
    A Vanillager's vest will malfunction unless the Vanillager had left a clear fake villager peek on d1. Vanillagers are not informed if their vests are hit.
    What’s the intention behind this wrinkle?
    This game setup fails to the extent the Village doesn't show up to play. Min posting won't cut it. In addition, if the players don't leave good cop cover, including players who want to be mistaken for Villagers (hint: that covers everyone), the game will not be balanced sufficiently for the Town. My goal in this setup in exchange for giving the wolves a full complement in a 13er while the Town suffers a number short on top of the fact that the baddies are killing them at a rate that is double, which is particularly harsh in a small game, is to give them a lifeline, to wit, a vest, but they need to put forth a slight amount of effort (name a name!) to get it.

  37. ISO #37
    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    Does everyone agree I should make the SK name their kill first before wolfchat decides on a kill? How will that play out practically? Should I not care which order the kill requests come in? Should SK remain last in the order like it was in the original setup? What if SK is afk late in the day and the first few hours of night? Ideas?

  38. ISO #38
    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    What if I gave all the 9 townfolk a random power from an open list of 13 power roles, then gave those in wolfchat the list of 4 power roles not distributed so they may fakeclaim from among them to defeat roleclaiming? Should I also give those remaining 4 powers to the non-town so they don't get caught in any lies, as well? Like, Mayor could be one such role, which could be given to either town or non-town randomly, etc.

  39. ISO #39
    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    See post 74.

    The Setup (13er)

    2 Non-Alignment-Indicative (NAI) Power Roles (PRs)
    These two PRs are randed among all players other than the Cop and the Backup Cop. Neither of these PRs are revealed to the players possessing these powers. Therefore, all players except the Cop are asked to submit their actions for both of these NAI PRs on n1:
    --1 Dictator submits two names, which are the only players eligible for lynch on d2. The list of two names is announced at the start of d2. The Dictator's identity is revealed at the end of d2.
    --1 Pardoner submits two names other than the submitter's name. Neither name may be lynched on d3; the next-highest votegetter is lynched instead. The Pardoner's list and identity are revealed at the end of d3.


    9 Townies
    --1 Cop will be given a randed n0 Townie result of investigation.
    --1 Backup Cop is initially told the lie that he or she is a Vest-Earner. However, if the Cop dies, the Backup Cop is then told that he or she is the new Cop.
    ----If the Cop is lynched and the Backup Cop survives the night, the Backup Cop receives the result of his or her investigation.
    ----If the Cop is night killed (NK'd), the Backup Cop is notified at the start of the next night. If the Backup Cop survives that next night, he or she receives the result of his or her investigation.
    --7 Vest-Earners are each asked to submit nightly exactly two or three names identifying the scum. A player who is told that he or she is a Vest-Earner and who fails to submit exactly at least two names on n1 is deemed to be playing against his or her team's win condition. A player may also choose to wear a vest, and it will be worn if available. The player will not know if his or her choice to wear a vest was honored. Wearing a vest absolutely guarantees that player will survive the night. If the list contains exactly two names and both are scum, a vest is earned. Otherwise, at least one is not scum, no vest is earned, and any vests already earned are destroyed. Names submitted must be living at the start of the night in which they are submitted. Names may be resubmitted on subsequent nights.
    ------three names and
    --------all three are scum, two vests are earned.
    --------exactly two are scum, no vest is earned, and no vest is destroyed.
    --------exactly one is scum, no vest is earned, and any vests already earned are destroyed.
    --------all three are not scum, the player dies.


    3 Mafia (Scum) with night chat and a team NK.

    1 Traitor (Scum) who appears to the Mafia as a Mafioso, appears to the Cop as a Mafioso, is revealed to everyone when lynched as a Mafioso, participates in Mafia night chat, and has his or her own NK submitted via PM.

    The NKs by the Mafia and by the Traitor must be of a Townie unless all Townies are already dead. The Traitor submits his or her NK first via private message (PM) as a day action (due before the lynch). The Traitor may submit two names so that if his or her first choice is the lynch, the second name is chosen for the NK instead. Second, everyone in night chat must agree to the target, or it will be randed among the Townies not submitted by the Traitor for NK.

    WIN CONDITIONS:
    This game is designed to give each of the three teams a 1 in 3 chance of winning.
    --The Traitor wins when all Townies are dead and the number of Mafia alive is 0 or 1.
    --The Mafia wins when the Traitor is dead and they achieve parity with the Town.
    --The Town wins when the only players alive are Townies.

    If and when the Town cannot win, any remaining Townies die.

    Lynch votes may not be changed if the only remaining players are Scum. If a Mafioso is then lynched, each of the last two Mafia will submit a NK. The one NOT killed by the Traitor decides the Mafia's NK:
    --if it is the Traitor, the Mafia wins.
    --if it is the same Mafioso that the Traitor killed, the Traitor wins.

    Lynch votes also may not be changed when the only players alive are two Townies and one Scum. If in this situation a Townie is lynched and the Scum is
    --Mafia, the Mafia wins (dead Traitor and parity achieved).
    --the Traitor and the remaining Townie has
    ----no vest, the Traitor wins.
    ----at least one vest, the Town wins.

    This incorporates some of the suggestions made and makes the setup better. Unless there is a consensus that this final draft contains a substantial inbalance, this will be the setup on March 18th.
    Last edited by Zork; February 16th, 2019 at 11:52 AM.

  40. ISO #40
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    I think you're over-engineering the setup. Less is more.

  41. ISO #41
    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#40)
    I think you're over-engineering the setup. Less is more.
    I added your suggestion on the tie. I thought I was going to read a post noting that. But, in answer to the post you did make, the vanilla game is down the street! :-)

    I think your comment is based on your mere glancing of the revised setup and not a thorough reading.
    Last edited by Zork; February 13th, 2019 at 08:23 PM.

  42. ISO #42
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    You have 3 large elements, each of which could be their own setup: the NAI roles, the vest mechanic, and the SK mechanic. Combining all three makes the setup extremely bloated and busy -- ignoring what my opinion on the quality of the three mechanics.

    Further, in the case of the NAI roles, nothing is added by their inclusion. There is no meaningful interaction between that mechanic and the other two at all. The SK only interacts with the vest mechanics insofar as a role with night KP interacts with a mechanic that can take away through what is almost randomness.

    There is no meaningful reason for these three mechanics to exist in the same game. You would be better off with three simpler setups, each run individually, to test the validity of your above ideas. Like I said, less is more and cramming too much new or original ideas into the same setup can make it too bloated or hard to track.

    The NAI roles seem fine and interesting enough that you could put them into a pretty simple setup, maybe a V or V+ game. The Vest mechanic seems like it could be workable in a setup that is specifically designed around it, rather than thrown in after the fact to make up for the fact that your current setup is made wrongly -- that is, it exist to remove N kills from the game, when you could just add more players to the setup and make it bigger. Finally, the SK mechanic would likely work better in a "fire and ice" style shell, wherein the mafia related mechanics only exist and town get some minor powers to smooth out the win%.

  43. ISO #43
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    In summation, you are over-engineering your setup and less would be more.

  44. ISO #44
    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    I completely disagree. Thank you for your criticism.

  45. ISO #45
    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    Anyone else care to chime in? I'm looking for arguments that the setup in post 39 contains any glaring inbalances or, alternatively, that the complex mechanics work together to facilitate balance. And of course, with either opinion, the "why."

    I am also looking for folks who would be interested in playing this Traitor Among the Traitors setup and why you would.

    I realize some folks prefer vanilla or simpler setups. If this is you, this is not the setup for you. But don't be afraid to try new things...

    :-)

  46. ISO #46
    Thread Analyst AndrewGreve's Avatar
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    Wolf NK restriction
    It is unnecessary to restrict the wolves NK to villagers. In order for the wolves NK to target the SK or wolf, it would require the SK or that wolf to agree to target themselves. Only a player that is actively working against their own win condition will vote to NK themselves.

    uninformed Wolfs vs informed SK idea
    If you want some informed vs uninformed action in wolf chat:
    If wolf NK matches SK NK. SK is killed by wolves. the SK NK still goes through, so 2 deaths that night. It forces SK to have an additional agenda in deciding the wolf NK. And incentivize's SK to stop NK closer to must-lynch. Prob should shorten night action submission to a 2 hour phase, even if day is 12 hours.


    Thoughts on vest list submission
    Could force village to post wolf list in the thread for vests. It means wolves would know who has vests, and might make SHC people interesting as wolves may avoid players with solid lists. Could be interesting way to evaluate information ITT. Might restrict the need for mod babysitting as village can police itself to a certain extent.


    Potential game breaking mechanic: listing 3 villagers = modkill
    I could see a possible abuse with mod-killing villagers guessing at three names. If submissions are not public I could still say:

    I am submitting:
    player x
    player y
    player z
    If I die it is 3 cleared vills for 1 vill death.
    If I live, once I flip, village know 1-3 wolves are on the list.
    If every villager does this and adjusts the list each night there is prob a way to solve the game pretty quickly. It would take work to optimize an algorithm based on all players previous lists, but I think it is doable.

    additionally:
    Wolves would be forced to also submit lists or get lynched for working against village win condition. If any list submitted at any point in the game has 3 confirmed villagers, and that player didn't die, boom peeked wolf.

  47. ISO #47
    Thread Analyst AndrewGreve's Avatar
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    I agree with manti that each individual mechanic might be unique enough to warrant testing alone. I don't think all together is bad/unfun, but the more new stuff in a set-up the more room to mechanically solve a game before it starts.

    I've never modded and most of my experience is in more vanilla or closed set-ups. So you can take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

  48. ISO #48
    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    Andrew, thank you for your detailed feedback!

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewGreve (#46)
    Wolf NK restriction
    It is unnecessary to restrict the wolves NK to villagers. In order for the wolves NK to target the SK or wolf, it would require the SK or that wolf to agree to target themselves. Only a player that is actively working against their own win condition will vote to NK themselves.
    Well now, if a Mafioso thinks you are the Traitor, he or she would be trying to achieve his or her win condition by killing you. The Mafioso may be right or wrong, but no one could doubt their sincerity. After all, the Mafia cannot win until the Traitor is dead. The problem is that even if the Mafioso is right, the Traitor flips as Mafia, so no one will know for sure whether that Mafioso who led the wagon (either in game thread by day or in wolfchat by night) against the alleged Traitor was a correct Mafioso, an incorrect Mafioso, or a treacherous, intentionally incorrect Traitor. Which actually means that perhaps you are right that there is no need to restrict NKs to villagers, but that the game will unfold almost certainly in that manner. Does anyone think the apple cart might be upset if the restriction were removed?

  49. ISO #49
    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    uninformed Wolfs vs informed SK idea
    If you want some informed vs uninformed action in wolf chat:
    If wolf NK matches SK NK. SK is killed by wolves. the SK NK still goes through, so 2 deaths that night. It forces SK to have an additional agenda in deciding the wolf NK. And incentivize's SK to stop NK closer to must-lynch. Prob should shorten night action submission to a 2 hour phase, even if day is 12 hours.
    This is an outstanding idea. I got around the timing of it by requiring the Traitor submit their kill as a day action even though it is a night action ultimately. This gives wolfchat the usual full night to contemplate and decide. I do love that twist, and I also love that it does not add to the body count. You are basically turning the Traitor into a bodyguard of his or her victim, but that if there is no attack on that victim, the Traitor lives and the player he or she was bodyguarding dies.

    Definitely incorporating that one.
    Last edited by Zork; February 15th, 2019 at 08:20 PM.

  50. ISO #50
    Appealing to Emotion Zork's Avatar
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    Thoughts on vest list submission
    Could force village to post wolf list in the thread for vests. It means wolves would know who has vests, and might make SHC people interesting as wolves may avoid players with solid lists. Could be interesting way to evaluate information ITT. Might restrict the need for mod babysitting as village can police itself to a certain extent.
    I'm glad you like it, and I'm really glad you don't see a problem with it. Thanks for taking the time to troubleshoot it to make sure it's solid.

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