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Thread: Mafia Championship Season 6 Setup - Suggestion/Discussion Thread

  1. ISO #101
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    I don't see why d6 isn't a good structure for champs, more of the roles inside it are unpreferable.

  2. ISO #102
    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#80)
    Might be a bit useless since I guess that Soahs setup is most likely going to be picked, but I tried to scramble together a 3x3 Matrix for a 13p setup:

    Tracker, Roleblocker, Mafia Tracker

    Vigilante (even), Mafia RB, Bodyguard

    Mafia Role cop, Bulletproofx1, JOAT (watch, jail, poison x1 each)

    Most likely not balanced, but that's what you guys are here for.
    Assuming you mean rows/columns would be used as setups?

    Seems semi-similar to last year's; personally I'm not really that much of a balancer, but some seem like they're a bit more PR-centered than others - for instance, ones with the vig/JOAT! Some are nearly mountainous, like the roleblocker/mafia roleblocker/bulletproof one, for instance!

    Actually now that I think about it, that setup is definitely a bit ??? with the bulletproof and two roleblockers like that?
    Message a ghost at Arapocalypse#0834!

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  3. ISO #103
    The problem with d6 is that it has a risk(not matter how small) that an extremely single role centric setup rands but if the top end roles are changed (which should be easy) it s probably fine

    Making it into a 17er may not be as easy though

    What would be the idea? Keep 3 villa prs maximum and brong dpwn the number of wolves prs?

    Or add max number of villa prs?

  4. ISO #104
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    a 17'er is actually pretty easy. I think 3 roles is fine, just have some of the 6's be 3 roles instead of 2. So like 6 on invest could be tracker/rolecop/alignment oracle or something like that

  5. ISO #105
    Technically Staff Jackofhearts2005's Avatar
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    Let’s just do one hundred player multi ball mash with itas and 168/12 phases.

    I’m sorry. I don’t know how to be helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacDougall
    If it's any consolation, you do have the best gif game.
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  6. ISO #106
    Technically Staff Jackofhearts2005's Avatar
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    Last player standing gets GH’s account password.
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    If it's any consolation, you do have the best gif game.
    Quote Originally Posted by dunya
    i don't know when to take jack seriously lol.

  7. ISO #107
    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Will get back to you on D6; it was discussed a lot previously, with a lot of reasons brought up that I've since forgotten!

    Personally, I think the setup is fine with a few tweaks, but wouldn't work well as a champs setup; it's not particularly intuitive to people seeing it for the first time and people often don't ask questions about it when they don't understand it until later days, if they do at all!!
    Message a ghost at Arapocalypse#0834!

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  8. ISO #108
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Wrt scaling d6 up: I’ve made some attempts to do so before, as has visor. It doesn’t scale super well.
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  9. ISO #109
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#107)
    Will get back to you on D6; it was discussed a lot previously, with a lot of reasons brought up that I've since forgotten!

    Personally, I think the setup is fine with a few tweaks, but wouldn't work well as a champs setup; it's not particularly intuitive to people seeing it for the first time and people often don't ask questions about it when they don't understand it until later days, if they do at all!!
    and how is this different than any matrix setup ever? I think the previous scale up of d6 failed because we were trying to increase the number of rands in comparison to just changing the rands. I think changing the rands and then simply adding 3 vts and a goon actually can work

  10. ISO #110
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    Investigative:

    1: Alignment Oracle
    2: Tracker
    3: Role Cop
    4: Alignment Oracle + Tracker
    5: Alignment Oracle + Rolecop
    6: Tracker + Rolecop


    Protective:

    1: Bodyguard
    2: Doctor
    3: Roleblocker
    4: Jailkeeper
    5: Jailkeeper + Bodyguard
    6: Roleblocker + Doctor


    Killing:

    1: 1x Vigilante
    2: 2x Vigilante
    3: Even night Vigilante
    4: Odd Night Vigilante
    5: Even night Vigilante + 1-shot Vigi
    6: Odd Night Vigi + Even night Vigi


    Something like this could work for townside. It's strong but not game defining overall. This would make a V++ setup always, which I think works super well for champs.

  11. ISO #111
    See you at the top! SmartBomb's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#2)
    Would D6 work? Can someone link me to the details on this setup and maybe give me cliffs on what advantages/disadvantages you think the setup has?
    Quote Originally Posted by remember (#31)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#2)
    Would D6 work? Can someone link me to the details on this setup and maybe give me cliffs on what advantages/disadvantages you think the setup has?
    i'm new to this site and i'm definitely not gonna participate in the tournament but i wanna post my impression of d6 i guess

    i think d6 setup is townsided for a few reasons, its pretty much impossible for scum to fakeclaim any roles in it because town can deduce which pr is real quite easily with a mass at any point in the game, and scum has no possibility of role cop so it's impossible for them to find which PRs are in the setup for a safe claim. this means that you can take PR claims at face value and it's basically random luck how many free clears town rolls at the start of the game. it feels kind of like mountainous but with town having bonus cop peeks and/or the ability to confirm 2 to 4 people as town at any time by just using logic to find out if the roles fit together

    i also think think vigilante rolls are redundant in d6 and dont understand why vigilante is included in the rand for a setup with an odd number of people. vigilante rarely has any utility whatsoever in a setup with an odd player count, but if doctor happens to save then vigilante's presence nets town a free ML which means that the setup can swing based on RNG pretty hard

    most semi-closed setups have similar problems, i don't even know how to begin to suggest fixing these except to start off by saying that scum should have a guaranteed role cop, or maybe that scum should be given more information at the start of the game, they seem relatively uninformed

    for something super competitive mountainous is more awesomer, or maybe just a cop 13 or 17er

    EDIT: i guess scum can deduce which PRs are in-setup if they kill a PR but this still requires some guess work and a fortuitious kill in the first place

    EDIT2: for people saying no cops, i'm pretty sure that d6 is even more townsided than a cop 13er, roles confirming eachother in-setup are basically inno reports, and if town only has 1 role it's a cop anyway. u could probably reduce how townsided a cop (X)'er is by giving scum a rolecop with an n0 peek
    Quote Originally Posted by remember (#32)
    the problem with the d6 format in general is that you basically aren't even playing a semi-closed setup, it's essentially an open setup (with the caveat that town has MUCH more information than scum on PRs, disadvantaging them and putting them in a position where they can't claim unless the stars align) as soon as the first claim drops b/c massclaim can be initiated at pretty much any time and scum will likely die if they try to mix in with the PR claims

    if you wanna do semi-closed right the roles shouldn't be able to confirm eachother with "role sudoku"
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#33)
    (i don't know how many times i have to say this)

    but dont use D6. its intended purely as a replacement for C9++ in offering a more balanced experience. (both of which should not be used in a situation where you want fine tuned balance)

    hence limiting PRs to 3 max (which is already too many for most setups but it kinda works anyway).

    some D6 setups are townsided, and some would consider to be scumsided, all are relatively in the bounds of playability (with some being more painful than others)

    in any event, there should definitely not be a 13er setup run

    i could go into more detail on remembers posts (its semi open not semi closed, fakeclaiming is really $#@!ing hard to implement in small setup/modular setup, PRs scale based on strength, etc)

    but I don't think it should be played so its moot.

    IMPO, host a 17 player setup. its the best size for spectating from a jury perspective at least and gives you far more freedom when designing roles.

    On creating a setup for it? Well, thats harder unless you want to go full closed setup.

    The problem with open/semi open setups is that anyone who knows vaguely how a setup is created knows there is no possible way there will be more than 4 town PRs (and 4 is cutting it, as 3 is in a 13er)

    Most of the time you'll get something like 3 Prs and 2 mafia prs. And straying too far further (reducing town prs forces them to be stronger and reducing mafia prs, and same the other way) has problems of introducing more and more variance and role interactions, and being generally less fun for people to play in either alignment.

    all semi open type setups have fake claiming as a problem. matrix 12 had that too, and so will any open game if you want to create a setup that allows fake claiming it either has to have enough variability that claiming a role in every setup case will not backfire for mafia, but also that multiple mafia can get away with claiming and that town still has enough power that they feel they can achieve something

    then it also comes down to what people find fun

    a lot of people enjoy open setups a lot more than closed setups

    so you need to decide closed or open/semi open (or semi closed if you can come up with a good design)

    closed offers fake claiming, but its incredibly dull to watch from a spectator point of view considering the nature of the setups anyway

    might post more on this later.

  12. ISO #112
    GOAT Tier Chemist1422's Avatar
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    On first glance, a problem with it is that town can roll 4 PRs. Is that intentional?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#6)
    mfw you accidentally sell your soul for a modpeek

  13. ISO #113
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#112)
    On first glance, a problem with it is that town can roll 4 PRs. Is that intentional?
    on my end there shouldn't be a single scenario of 4 town prs.

  14. ISO #114
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    I think most of those problems SB are literally also shown in matrix setups which no-one's protesting, or solved by making the setup larger, but keeping the pr count small.

  15. ISO #115
    GOAT Tier Chemist1422's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquilla (#113)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#112)
    On first glance, a problem with it is that town can roll 4 PRs. Is that intentional?
    on my end there shouldn't be a single scenario of 4 town prs.
    4-1-1
    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#6)
    mfw you accidentally sell your soul for a modpeek

  16. ISO #116
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#115)
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquilla (#113)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#112)
    On first glance, a problem with it is that town can roll 4 PRs. Is that intentional?
    on my end there shouldn't be a single scenario of 4 town prs.
    4-1-1
    ah ok, I mean still needs tweaking.

  17. ISO #117
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    a fully open setup can work too potentially.

  18. ISO #118
    doesn't alignment oracle have the same problem as alignment cop? it also has a particular and weird dynamic in that the wolves are going to avoid killing the player with that role if they can help it. I wouldn't use it. I didn't remember d6 very well when I initially brought it up, and I don't know that it's really viable. Any version for champs would be so heavily altered from the original version that it's basically a different setup entirely anyways.

    Smartbomb quoting last year's thread made me realize we're going through a repeat of the same problem, where the thread starts with basically "make a new setup" and not much more direction than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#89)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#88)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#87)
    There's ten different conversations going on here, think we should probably focus on banging out these issues first:

    - How many communities are going to be represented?

    - How many games?

    - How many players in each game?

    - How is the whole jury system going to work?

    Some of these are intertwined, but they need to be dealt with fairly definitively before a setup can really be decided.

    Regardless of the above, I believe the following should hold true:

    1. Use open or semi-open setups.
    2. Use the same setup across all games.
    3. Setup should be relatively simple and easy to understand.
    4. Stay as close to "standard" rules as possible. (This means full role flips too.)
    The OP is more detailed, but basically: Those things are indeed all intertwined, so the priority for me is FIRST getting a good setup decided. Then the rest is decided from that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#98)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#94)
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#91)
    rn people have given suggestions, now just choose a starting point
    I think the only concrete suggestions I've seen are expanding D6 or using the All-Stars setup. I don't think the latter is a good idea, and I can't speak to the first before actually seeing the new D6 setup. But to be clear, if there is a good D6 expanded to be made, I'm very onboard for that.

    I don't feel like I want to limit people's suggestions. To be clear, I'm not looking for people to suggest "15'er open" or "17'er closed". I'm looking for specific setup suggestions.

    The only hard limit is: I want the games to be automated, and to be for between 9 to 17 players. I PREFER 13, 15 or 17 players, but if there are no good suggestions for any of those and only a good suggestion for 9 or 11 players, then so be it. I PREFER open or semi-open, but if we don't get any good suggestions, then I guess we have to roll with closed.
    Thingy... my experience is that if you give no direction and a vague request to do something to no one in particular, it's not going to get done.

    Is there a specific reason we can't do 2x5 with some slight tweaks? As someone who played in champs, it seemed pretty much fine. Does there really need to be a new format every year?

  19. ISO #119
    Regardless, I'll try to come up with some ideas for automated 17ers with normal kill and lynch mechanics soon™

  20. ISO #120
    See you at the top! SmartBomb's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquilla (#114)
    I think most of those problems SB are literally also shown in matrix setups which no-one's protesting, or solved by making the setup larger, but keeping the pr count small.
    Think you need to reread remember's posts.

    In a matrix setup you can claim your role and be aware thst someone is likely to cc you, and you have to operate on a claim battle.

    In D6 you claim first and you are immediately accepted as town, because scum can't generate a fakeclaim without knowing the die roll. Claiming a PR automatically townfirms players in D6 on a level no other semi-open or even open replicates.

  21. ISO #121
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#118)
    doesn't alignment oracle have the same problem as alignment cop? it also has a particular and weird dynamic in that the wolves are going to avoid killing the player with that role if they can help it. I wouldn't use it. I didn't remember d6 very well when I initially brought it up, and I don't know that it's really viable. Any version for champs would be so heavily altered from the original version that it's basically a different setup entirely anyways.

    Smartbomb quoting last year's thread made me realize we're going through a repeat of the same problem, where the thread starts with basically "make a new setup" and not much more direction than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#89)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#88)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#87)
    There's ten different conversations going on here, think we should probably focus on banging out these issues first:

    - How many communities are going to be represented?

    - How many games?

    - How many players in each game?

    - How is the whole jury system going to work?

    Some of these are intertwined, but they need to be dealt with fairly definitively before a setup can really be decided.

    Regardless of the above, I believe the following should hold true:

    1. Use open or semi-open setups.
    2. Use the same setup across all games.
    3. Setup should be relatively simple and easy to understand.
    4. Stay as close to "standard" rules as possible. (This means full role flips too.)
    The OP is more detailed, but basically: Those things are indeed all intertwined, so the priority for me is FIRST getting a good setup decided. Then the rest is decided from that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#98)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#94)
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#91)
    rn people have given suggestions, now just choose a starting point
    I think the only concrete suggestions I've seen are expanding D6 or using the All-Stars setup. I don't think the latter is a good idea, and I can't speak to the first before actually seeing the new D6 setup. But to be clear, if there is a good D6 expanded to be made, I'm very onboard for that.

    I don't feel like I want to limit people's suggestions. To be clear, I'm not looking for people to suggest "15'er open" or "17'er closed". I'm looking for specific setup suggestions.

    The only hard limit is: I want the games to be automated, and to be for between 9 to 17 players. I PREFER 13, 15 or 17 players, but if there are no good suggestions for any of those and only a good suggestion for 9 or 11 players, then so be it. I PREFER open or semi-open, but if we don't get any good suggestions, then I guess we have to roll with closed.
    Thingy... my experience is that if you give no direction and a vague request to do something to no one in particular, it's not going to get done.

    Is there a specific reason we can't do 2x5 with some slight tweaks? As someone who played in champs, it seemed pretty much fine. Does there really need to be a new format every year?
    ye alignment oracle has it's issues as well, but there's not a different investigative role in modbot that I thought would've been better.

    I don't think anyone said a different format was necessary, but there's definitely some things about 2x5 that weren't super popular, specifically motion detector and voyeur. I'm all for trying 2x5 again (or some different AxB number, and swapping roles.

  22. ISO #122
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmartBomb (#120)
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquilla (#114)
    I think most of those problems SB are literally also shown in matrix setups which no-one's protesting, or solved by making the setup larger, but keeping the pr count small.
    Think you need to reread remember's posts.

    In a matrix setup you can claim your role and be aware thst someone is likely to cc you, and you have to operate on a claim battle.

    In D6 you claim first and you are immediately accepted as town, because scum can't generate a fakeclaim without knowing the die roll. Claiming a PR automatically townfirms players in D6 on a level no other semi-open or even open replicates.
    on paper, yes but in actuality no. Mafia Fakeclaiming in semi-open setups is ALWAYS a short-lived thing. and in a semi-open setup there is ALWAYS at least 1 person who can cc.

  23. ISO #123
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    those problems might be Slightly amplified in d6, but if you think about it enough, you can still tread around it as mafia. Less options =/= 0 options

  24. ISO #124
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    regardless though, I think I like a rehash of 2x5 better

  25. ISO #125
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquilla (#124)
    regardless though, I think I like a rehash of 2x5 better
    and it'd be easier to make/play.

  26. ISO #126
    GOAT Tier JohnCarter's Avatar
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    All of these roles just add to much swing based on the rand tho

  27. ISO #127
    Wants It More LanMisa's Avatar
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    Can't we just let them all play EIMM until only a single person is left standing?

  28. ISO #128
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanMisa (#127)
    Can't we just let them all play EIMM until only a single person is left standing?
    as fun as that would be, that's definitely not a mafia championship.

  29. ISO #129
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    I'm reiterating that I'm very much against a role madness or quasi-role madness setup.

    ime the d6 setup is extremely oppressive for the mafia alignment. Not necessarily town sided, but very much a hard setup for the mafia to win in.

    I think a heavily modified d6 would be a good idea.

  30. ISO #130
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmartBomb (#111)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#2)
    Would D6 work? Can someone link me to the details on this setup and maybe give me cliffs on what advantages/disadvantages you think the setup has?
    Quote Originally Posted by remember (#31)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#2)
    Would D6 work? Can someone link me to the details on this setup and maybe give me cliffs on what advantages/disadvantages you think the setup has?
    i'm new to this site and i'm definitely not gonna participate in the tournament but i wanna post my impression of d6 i guess

    i think d6 setup is townsided for a few reasons, its pretty much impossible for scum to fakeclaim any roles in it because town can deduce which pr is real quite easily with a mass at any point in the game, and scum has no possibility of role cop so it's impossible for them to find which PRs are in the setup for a safe claim. this means that you can take PR claims at face value and it's basically random luck how many free clears town rolls at the start of the game. it feels kind of like mountainous but with town having bonus cop peeks and/or the ability to confirm 2 to 4 people as town at any time by just using logic to find out if the roles fit together

    i also think think vigilante rolls are redundant in d6 and dont understand why vigilante is included in the rand for a setup with an odd number of people. vigilante rarely has any utility whatsoever in a setup with an odd player count, but if doctor happens to save then vigilante's presence nets town a free ML which means that the setup can swing based on RNG pretty hard

    most semi-closed setups have similar problems, i don't even know how to begin to suggest fixing these except to start off by saying that scum should have a guaranteed role cop, or maybe that scum should be given more information at the start of the game, they seem relatively uninformed

    for something super competitive mountainous is more awesomer, or maybe just a cop 13 or 17er

    EDIT: i guess scum can deduce which PRs are in-setup if they kill a PR but this still requires some guess work and a fortuitious kill in the first place

    EDIT2: for people saying no cops, i'm pretty sure that d6 is even more townsided than a cop 13er, roles confirming eachother in-setup are basically inno reports, and if town only has 1 role it's a cop anyway. u could probably reduce how townsided a cop (X)'er is by giving scum a rolecop with an n0 peek
    Quote Originally Posted by remember (#32)
    the problem with the d6 format in general is that you basically aren't even playing a semi-closed setup, it's essentially an open setup (with the caveat that town has MUCH more information than scum on PRs, disadvantaging them and putting them in a position where they can't claim unless the stars align) as soon as the first claim drops b/c massclaim can be initiated at pretty much any time and scum will likely die if they try to mix in with the PR claims

    if you wanna do semi-closed right the roles shouldn't be able to confirm eachother with "role sudoku"
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#33)
    (i don't know how many times i have to say this)

    but dont use D6. its intended purely as a replacement for C9++ in offering a more balanced experience. (both of which should not be used in a situation where you want fine tuned balance)

    hence limiting PRs to 3 max (which is already too many for most setups but it kinda works anyway).

    some D6 setups are townsided, and some would consider to be scumsided, all are relatively in the bounds of playability (with some being more painful than others)

    in any event, there should definitely not be a 13er setup run

    i could go into more detail on remembers posts (its semi open not semi closed, fakeclaiming is really $#@!ing hard to implement in small setup/modular setup, PRs scale based on strength, etc)

    but I don't think it should be played so its moot.

    IMPO, host a 17 player setup. its the best size for spectating from a jury perspective at least and gives you far more freedom when designing roles.

    On creating a setup for it? Well, thats harder unless you want to go full closed setup.

    The problem with open/semi open setups is that anyone who knows vaguely how a setup is created knows there is no possible way there will be more than 4 town PRs (and 4 is cutting it, as 3 is in a 13er)

    Most of the time you'll get something like 3 Prs and 2 mafia prs. And straying too far further (reducing town prs forces them to be stronger and reducing mafia prs, and same the other way) has problems of introducing more and more variance and role interactions, and being generally less fun for people to play in either alignment.

    all semi open type setups have fake claiming as a problem. matrix 12 had that too, and so will any open game if you want to create a setup that allows fake claiming it either has to have enough variability that claiming a role in every setup case will not backfire for mafia, but also that multiple mafia can get away with claiming and that town still has enough power that they feel they can achieve something

    then it also comes down to what people find fun

    a lot of people enjoy open setups a lot more than closed setups

    so you need to decide closed or open/semi open (or semi closed if you can come up with a good design)

    closed offers fake claiming, but its incredibly dull to watch from a spectator point of view considering the nature of the setups anyway

    might post more on this later.


    This quote chain express the issue with d6 nicely.

    On that note, I don't think a setup with town Oracles/Vengeful is a great idea just because, much like alignment cop, these roles warp a game and are oppressive to play against.

    Those three roles require relatively little skill to play as, but a lot of skill to properly play against. That just doesn't seem fair in the tournament format.

  31. ISO #131
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#130)
    Quote Originally Posted by SmartBomb (#111)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#2)
    Would D6 work? Can someone link me to the details on this setup and maybe give me cliffs on what advantages/disadvantages you think the setup has?
    Quote Originally Posted by remember (#31)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#2)
    Would D6 work? Can someone link me to the details on this setup and maybe give me cliffs on what advantages/disadvantages you think the setup has?
    i'm new to this site and i'm definitely not gonna participate in the tournament but i wanna post my impression of d6 i guess

    i think d6 setup is townsided for a few reasons, its pretty much impossible for scum to fakeclaim any roles in it because town can deduce which pr is real quite easily with a mass at any point in the game, and scum has no possibility of role cop so it's impossible for them to find which PRs are in the setup for a safe claim. this means that you can take PR claims at face value and it's basically random luck how many free clears town rolls at the start of the game. it feels kind of like mountainous but with town having bonus cop peeks and/or the ability to confirm 2 to 4 people as town at any time by just using logic to find out if the roles fit together

    i also think think vigilante rolls are redundant in d6 and dont understand why vigilante is included in the rand for a setup with an odd number of people. vigilante rarely has any utility whatsoever in a setup with an odd player count, but if doctor happens to save then vigilante's presence nets town a free ML which means that the setup can swing based on RNG pretty hard

    most semi-closed setups have similar problems, i don't even know how to begin to suggest fixing these except to start off by saying that scum should have a guaranteed role cop, or maybe that scum should be given more information at the start of the game, they seem relatively uninformed

    for something super competitive mountainous is more awesomer, or maybe just a cop 13 or 17er

    EDIT: i guess scum can deduce which PRs are in-setup if they kill a PR but this still requires some guess work and a fortuitious kill in the first place

    EDIT2: for people saying no cops, i'm pretty sure that d6 is even more townsided than a cop 13er, roles confirming eachother in-setup are basically inno reports, and if town only has 1 role it's a cop anyway. u could probably reduce how townsided a cop (X)'er is by giving scum a rolecop with an n0 peek
    Quote Originally Posted by remember (#32)
    the problem with the d6 format in general is that you basically aren't even playing a semi-closed setup, it's essentially an open setup (with the caveat that town has MUCH more information than scum on PRs, disadvantaging them and putting them in a position where they can't claim unless the stars align) as soon as the first claim drops b/c massclaim can be initiated at pretty much any time and scum will likely die if they try to mix in with the PR claims

    if you wanna do semi-closed right the roles shouldn't be able to confirm eachother with "role sudoku"
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#33)
    (i don't know how many times i have to say this)

    but dont use D6. its intended purely as a replacement for C9++ in offering a more balanced experience. (both of which should not be used in a situation where you want fine tuned balance)

    hence limiting PRs to 3 max (which is already too many for most setups but it kinda works anyway).

    some D6 setups are townsided, and some would consider to be scumsided, all are relatively in the bounds of playability (with some being more painful than others)

    in any event, there should definitely not be a 13er setup run

    i could go into more detail on remembers posts (its semi open not semi closed, fakeclaiming is really $#@!ing hard to implement in small setup/modular setup, PRs scale based on strength, etc)

    but I don't think it should be played so its moot.

    IMPO, host a 17 player setup. its the best size for spectating from a jury perspective at least and gives you far more freedom when designing roles.

    On creating a setup for it? Well, thats harder unless you want to go full closed setup.

    The problem with open/semi open setups is that anyone who knows vaguely how a setup is created knows there is no possible way there will be more than 4 town PRs (and 4 is cutting it, as 3 is in a 13er)

    Most of the time you'll get something like 3 Prs and 2 mafia prs. And straying too far further (reducing town prs forces them to be stronger and reducing mafia prs, and same the other way) has problems of introducing more and more variance and role interactions, and being generally less fun for people to play in either alignment.

    all semi open type setups have fake claiming as a problem. matrix 12 had that too, and so will any open game if you want to create a setup that allows fake claiming it either has to have enough variability that claiming a role in every setup case will not backfire for mafia, but also that multiple mafia can get away with claiming and that town still has enough power that they feel they can achieve something

    then it also comes down to what people find fun

    a lot of people enjoy open setups a lot more than closed setups

    so you need to decide closed or open/semi open (or semi closed if you can come up with a good design)

    closed offers fake claiming, but its incredibly dull to watch from a spectator point of view considering the nature of the setups anyway

    might post more on this later.


    This quote chain express the issue with d6 nicely.

    On that note, I don't think a setup with town Oracles/Vengeful is a great idea just because, much like alignment cop, these roles warp a game and are oppressive to play against.

    Those three roles require relatively little skill to play as, but a lot of skill to properly play against. That just doesn't seem fair in the tournament format.
    Just getting it out of the way, Watcher and PGO are both in a similar boat lol

  32. ISO #132
    GOAT Tier Jaleb's Avatar
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    Can someone explain why alignment checks are completely voodoo in champs anyway? Feels like if a cop needs to check a player, that player probably wasn't good enough to qual for the next round cause they were doing a poor job at their role.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empoof (#4961)
    it was jaleb

    @Jaleb is a god
    ⚡🍺Frog 🍺⚡Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    ok dudes
    you can discuss the event here if you want

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:05 AM
    Done, will take my prize now
    I do have a 1900 rating in solving tactics :smiley:

    AndrewGreve(night vig/39%ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    hey
    i dont know chess tactics
    should I try?

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    1. Bf6 2. Qh7 3. Rf7 4. Nh6 5. Re5 6. ... Qh3 7. Qd8 8. h7 9. ... Ne5+; fxe5 h5 10. ... Bg1; Kg3 Qf2; Kh3 Qh2 i you want the answer, not that it matters
    if*

    ⚡🍺Frog 🍺⚡Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    Jaleb, you're lowkey Magnus

  33. ISO #133
    My personal opinion on all the modbot roles for champs.

    Town Doctor

    Jack of All Trades - using abilities from "sure"

    Jailkeeper

    Neapolitan (each night targets a player and sees whether or not they are a VT) - I had to look up what this was but it seems fine. Don't use it in the same game as a role cop, obviously. Only caveat is if you want to avoid obscure roles people might not be familiar with.

    Role Cop - assuming this gives the same result for VT and goon

    Roleblocker

    Tracker - remember the power level scales significantly depending on the number of roles and wolves in the game

    Vanilla / Goon

    Town Vigilante - in a 1-shot, 2-shot, or odd/even night form. Both games I played in Season 5 had a n1 kill and it was fine, but n1 vigs do leave the possibility of a benneh getting bimps'd. A full vig puts too much impact and role power in one player's hands.

    Wolf Watcher
    Bodyguard - dying for someone else feels weird for a champs game. A wolf bodyguard is silly.

    Wolf Doctor - feels lame in a game where any vigs will be limited

    Healer + Poisoner - these are cool roles but probably too fancy and swingy

    Motion Detector + Voyeur - I don't know why these were in 2x5, but they're obscure and $#@!ty and pointless.

    Town Watcher - oppressive role that takes little skill

    Wolf Vigilante - this wolf role is going to be 1000x more important than any other no matter how limited it is
    Alignment Cop - other people have already done a good job of covering the problems with this in a champs format

    Alignment Oracle - oppressive and peeks are meh in champs

    Arsonist + Firefighter - lol

    Day Vigilante - too jarring and impactful

    Full Cop - it's like an alignment cop, but worse

    Innocent Child + Masons - I'm against champs having roles with free peeks and/or that significantly alter how someone randing it might play

    Lover - lol

    Miller + Godfather + Framer - no

    Neighbor - I guess this is more debatable but I don't think it belongs

    Parity Cop - Not as bad as alignment cop but still

    Role Oracle - why does this exist?

    Suicide Bomber - lol

    Treestump - lol

    Universal Backup - no

    Serial Killer, Third Party / Neutrals, Multiball - get tarred and feathered
    Backup - nah

    Bulletproof - nah

    Flipless - lol

    Macho - why?

    Ninja + Strongman - as a 1-shot maybe?

    Recluse - no

    Vengeful - nah

  34. ISO #134
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaleb (#132)
    Can someone explain why alignment checks are completely voodoo in champs anyway? Feels like if a cop needs to check a player, that player probably wasn't good enough to qual for the next round cause they were doing a poor job at their role.
    disagree

    cops particularly in cop setups can be played aiming for villagers, for one

    also it’s not something that can really be played the way out of very much
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  35. ISO #135
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    also they’re gameplay warping as a full role
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  36. ISO #136
    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Message a ghost at Arapocalypse#0834!

    [2:58 AM] SmartBomb, GEATHJERK OVERLORD: @Arapocalypse why do you always have a quote of me in your sig. ara pls

  37. ISO #137
    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#118)
    doesn't alignment oracle have the same problem as alignment cop? it also has a particular and weird dynamic in that the wolves are going to avoid killing the player with that role if they can help it. I wouldn't use it. I didn't remember d6 very well when I initially brought it up, and I don't know that it's really viable. Any version for champs would be so heavily altered from the original version that it's basically a different setup entirely anyways.

    Smartbomb quoting last year's thread made me realize we're going through a repeat of the same problem, where the thread starts with basically "make a new setup" and not much more direction than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#89)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#88)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#87)
    There's ten different conversations going on here, think we should probably focus on banging out these issues first:

    - How many communities are going to be represented?

    - How many games?

    - How many players in each game?

    - How is the whole jury system going to work?

    Some of these are intertwined, but they need to be dealt with fairly definitively before a setup can really be decided.

    Regardless of the above, I believe the following should hold true:

    1. Use open or semi-open setups.
    2. Use the same setup across all games.
    3. Setup should be relatively simple and easy to understand.
    4. Stay as close to "standard" rules as possible. (This means full role flips too.)
    The OP is more detailed, but basically: Those things are indeed all intertwined, so the priority for me is FIRST getting a good setup decided. Then the rest is decided from that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#98)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#94)
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#91)
    rn people have given suggestions, now just choose a starting point
    I think the only concrete suggestions I've seen are expanding D6 or using the All-Stars setup. I don't think the latter is a good idea, and I can't speak to the first before actually seeing the new D6 setup. But to be clear, if there is a good D6 expanded to be made, I'm very onboard for that.

    I don't feel like I want to limit people's suggestions. To be clear, I'm not looking for people to suggest "15'er open" or "17'er closed". I'm looking for specific setup suggestions.

    The only hard limit is: I want the games to be automated, and to be for between 9 to 17 players. I PREFER 13, 15 or 17 players, but if there are no good suggestions for any of those and only a good suggestion for 9 or 11 players, then so be it. I PREFER open or semi-open, but if we don't get any good suggestions, then I guess we have to roll with closed.
    Thingy... my experience is that if you give no direction and a vague request to do something to no one in particular, it's not going to get done.

    Is there a specific reason we can't do 2x5 with some slight tweaks? As someone who played in champs, it seemed pretty much fine. Does there really need to be a new format every year?
    What sort of slight tweaks are you thinking? Would probably count as a new setup, I think!!
    Message a ghost at Arapocalypse#0834!

    [2:58 AM] SmartBomb, GEATHJERK OVERLORD: @Arapocalypse why do you always have a quote of me in your sig. ara pls

  38. ISO #138
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    i'm overall in agreement with Zack's assessment of the roles.

  39. ISO #139
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    if we're gonna rework 2x5 suggestions for the mafia side of things, either change the full goons to have 1 roleblocker, or add an extra setup with 1 roleblocker and 3 goons. A column with a mafia role cop feels good still.

  40. ISO #140
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
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    N/A 4 Mafia Goons 3 Mafia Goons and 1 Mafia Rolecop 3 Mafia Goons and 1 Mafia Roleblocker
    Row 1 tbd tbd tbd
    Row 2 tbd tbd tbd
    Row 3 tbd tbd tbd
    Row 4 tbd tbd tbd
    Row 5 tbd tbd tbd

  41. ISO #141
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#133)
    My personal opinion on all the modbot roles for champs.

    Town Doctor

    Jack of All Trades - using abilities from "sure"

    Jailkeeper

    Neapolitan (each night targets a player and sees whether or not they are a VT) - I had to look up what this was but it seems fine. Don't use it in the same game as a role cop, obviously. Only caveat is if you want to avoid obscure roles people might not be familiar with.

    Role Cop - assuming this gives the same result for VT and goon

    Roleblocker

    Tracker - remember the power level scales significantly depending on the number of roles and wolves in the game

    Vanilla / Goon

    Town Vigilante - in a 1-shot, 2-shot, or odd/even night form. Both games I played in Season 5 had a n1 kill and it was fine, but n1 vigs do leave the possibility of a benneh getting bimps'd. A full vig puts too much impact and role power in one player's hands.

    Wolf Watcher
    Bodyguard - dying for someone else feels weird for a champs game. A wolf bodyguard is silly.

    Wolf Doctor - feels lame in a game where any vigs will be limited

    Healer + Poisoner - these are cool roles but probably too fancy and swingy

    Motion Detector + Voyeur - I don't know why these were in 2x5, but they're obscure and $#@!ty and pointless.

    Town Watcher - oppressive role that takes little skill

    Wolf Vigilante - this wolf role is going to be 1000x more important than any other no matter how limited it is
    Alignment Cop - other people have already done a good job of covering the problems with this in a champs format

    Alignment Oracle - oppressive and peeks are meh in champs

    Arsonist + Firefighter - lol

    Day Vigilante - too jarring and impactful

    Full Cop - it's like an alignment cop, but worse

    Innocent Child + Masons - I'm against champs having roles with free peeks and/or that significantly alter how someone randing it might play

    Lover - lol

    Miller + Godfather + Framer - no

    Neighbor - I guess this is more debatable but I don't think it belongs

    Parity Cop - Not as bad as alignment cop but still

    Role Oracle - why does this exist?

    Suicide Bomber - lol

    Treestump - lol

    Universal Backup - no

    Serial Killer, Third Party / Neutrals, Multiball - get tarred and feathered
    Backup - nah

    Bulletproof - nah

    Flipless - lol

    Macho - why?

    Ninja + Strongman - as a 1-shot maybe?

    Recluse - no

    Vengeful - nah
    A couple notes: I think JK>Medic basically always because mechanical depth + less info on early wave w/ better outplay potential from either alignment.

    I can understand why suicide bomber would be no, but mafia suicide bomber actually adds a tonne of depth to a game where mafia use it right. It basically hard counters some of the more oppressive roles. Still down to say no to it in this format + it's utility being niche and requiring a grasp of weird mechanics.

    Tracker is the gold standard for investigative roles imo.

  42. ISO #142
    Soul Reader Geo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#32)
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#26)
    Quote Originally Posted by El-ahrairah (#24)
    Is it possible to run two types of setup alongside each other? A role madness setup for those who want to play with PRs, and a Mountainous setup for those who prefer no PRs? Keep in mind I've never seen a champs game and have no idea how the series works. I'm not Champs material but I know I would prefer to play Mountainous if given the choice, so there's gotta be (maybe... possibly... hopefully...) others out there who feel the same. Right?
    Along with this, what about the possibility of running one setup for the qualifiers and then a different setup (potentially mountainous or a variant thereof) for the wildcards/finale? Justification being that the community-pleasing, role madness aspect is used for the more social, "get to know you" type rounds that encourage community building, and then for the business end of champs later on we go with a more tournament-friendly setup.
    While I see the logic behind this, I think it'd be problematic in the sense that ... Some of these communities are not at all used to mountainous games, and they would feel handicapped - rightfully so - in a wildcard/finale game if they are going into that never having tried it before. So it doesn't feel right to have a format that would probably never allow someone new to mountainous to win, whereas if we have mountainous during the qualifiers where more players advance from each game and the average player quality should be lower, you still have a chance to adapt and learn the setup without being overwhelmed by other top tier players with plenty of mountainous experience.
    Yeah I think Mountainous in wildcard and finale game with qualifiers having a lot of diversity would be a good idea.

    At the end of the season last year I was definitely on the side of not having post limits but having been on this site a little longer and realizing why ridiculous post quantity affects games I think qualifiers should have something like a two hundred ppp limit with the last hour open and then wildcard and finale has no limits.

    Perception of highposters has a bit of influence on the game and a game with a lot of them ends up being overwhelming to anyone who has any IRL obligations that limits access to catching up on a cell or computer and then there's communities who produce players who trend on length over quantity and in not just mafia but in general, the more presence someone has the more influential they are, meaning certain playstyle earn more influence than they deserve. The validity of highposters comes mostly from interaction and you could still keep that playstyle while posting under 200 ppp so long as your interactions are focused.

    I know this is mostly a setup discussion though, just wanted to throw that out there. And maybe I'm just arguing that because I have found the site's meta to be overwhelming due to postcount.

  43. ISO #143
    Soul Reader Angrypotato's Avatar
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    Not sure if it was mentioned, but I am highly against having a cop of any faction to be in the game. Too rng.It is not fun to be redpeeked by cop.

  44. ISO #144
    Technically Staff Jackofhearts2005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#133)
    My personal opinion on all the modbot roles for champs.

    Town Doctor

    Jack of All Trades - using abilities from "sure"

    Jailkeeper

    Neapolitan (each night targets a player and sees whether or not they are a VT) - I had to look up what this was but it seems fine. Don't use it in the same game as a role cop, obviously. Only caveat is if you want to avoid obscure roles people might not be familiar with.

    Role Cop - assuming this gives the same result for VT and goon

    Roleblocker

    Tracker - remember the power level scales significantly depending on the number of roles and wolves in the game

    Vanilla / Goon

    Town Vigilante - in a 1-shot, 2-shot, or odd/even night form. Both games I played in Season 5 had a n1 kill and it was fine, but n1 vigs do leave the possibility of a benneh getting bimps'd. A full vig puts too much impact and role power in one player's hands.

    Wolf Watcher
    Bodyguard - dying for someone else feels weird for a champs game. A wolf bodyguard is silly.

    Wolf Doctor - feels lame in a game where any vigs will be limited

    Healer + Poisoner - these are cool roles but probably too fancy and swingy

    Motion Detector + Voyeur - I don't know why these were in 2x5, but they're obscure and $#@!ty and pointless.

    Town Watcher - oppressive role that takes little skill

    Wolf Vigilante - this wolf role is going to be 1000x more important than any other no matter how limited it is
    Alignment Cop - other people have already done a good job of covering the problems with this in a champs format

    Alignment Oracle - oppressive and peeks are meh in champs

    Arsonist + Firefighter - lol

    Day Vigilante - too jarring and impactful

    Full Cop - it's like an alignment cop, but worse

    Innocent Child + Masons - I'm against champs having roles with free peeks and/or that significantly alter how someone randing it might play

    Lover - lol

    Miller + Godfather + Framer - no

    Neighbor - I guess this is more debatable but I don't think it belongs

    Parity Cop - Not as bad as alignment cop but still

    Role Oracle - why does this exist?

    Suicide Bomber - lol

    Treestump - lol

    Universal Backup - no

    Serial Killer, Third Party / Neutrals, Multiball - get tarred and feathered
    Backup - nah

    Bulletproof - nah

    Flipless - lol

    Macho - why?

    Ninja + Strongman - as a 1-shot maybe?

    Recluse - no

    Vengeful - nah
    This is my actual opinion except bring on motion detectors and voyeurs.

    The fear is players don’t want mountainous and we don’t want swingy or OP roles. So “not mountainous” with weak prs is perfectly fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacDougall
    If it's any consolation, you do have the best gif game.
    Quote Originally Posted by dunya
    i don't know when to take jack seriously lol.

  45. ISO #145
    Technically Staff Jackofhearts2005's Avatar
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    I’d be perfectly happy with all $#@! super weak prs. “It’s not mountainous.” 😁
    Quote Originally Posted by MacDougall
    If it's any consolation, you do have the best gif game.
    Quote Originally Posted by dunya
    i don't know when to take jack seriously lol.

  46. ISO #146
    The weak PRs like that are functionally not much different from an innocent child, and so end up as a get-out-of-a-mislynch-free card and not much else. I'd rather have a VT then adjust the rest of the setup to compensate.

  47. ISO #147
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#134)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaleb (#132)
    Can someone explain why alignment checks are completely voodoo in champs anyway? Feels like if a cop needs to check a player, that player probably wasn't good enough to qual for the next round cause they were doing a poor job at their role.
    disagree

    cops particularly in cop setups can be played aiming for villagers, for one

    also it’s not something that can really be played the way out of very much
    Also, at some point if you're a wolf you're going to need to play in a way that will piss SOME people off. If the rando you got into a fight with happened to be the cop, that sucks for you in a pretty heavy bad luck way that doens't really have a whole lot to do with player skill on your end.
    Life is simply unfair... don't you think?
    http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=mhsmith0

    BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me

  48. ISO #148
    Award Reader Distorted's Avatar
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    I haven't read the thread, but will post my thoughts and opinions on it anyways; like a good mafia player.

    I think the OP linked game is too PR heavy. RNG will play a huge factor in the outcome of the games and a lot of players will either get carried by night actions, or be depending on night actions. I think the championship games should stick as close to the standard, original mafia as possible. That is a better way to see players skill as well. You could have an awful player who carries the game because they got lucky night actions and nobody really needed to do much else.

    I will try to think/post a few ideas/setups when I have some time (and not just being lazy) to do so.

    I understand trying to keep the setups exciting, but in the end, what it boils down to is Mafia is a social, community game. We play it because we enjoy the communities we play with and the atmosphere that our unique player-bases provide. I think focusing on trying to get more people to spectate and be involved within each of the communities is the most important part.

    So, i'm voting for a standard, generic setup. since anyone who plays FM will be able to understand the basics and it is much easier and accurate to measure player abilities that way
    Go here → → https://discord.gg/rYRT5Tz Type s.cat, enjoy.
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  49. ISO #149
    Award Reader Distorted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#53)
    Unrelated to the current discussion, but something I don't want to get lost in the shuffle:

    Please keep in mind that this thread, taking place on MU and being predominantly if not entirely populated by MU regulars, will shape our perception of setups that are and are not acceptable/fun. We need to keep in mind that the goal of this is something that the communities will respond to, not simply one that's MU-sanctioned.
    Obvious scum trying to derail the conversation.
    ##Vote generalhankerchief
    Go here → → https://discord.gg/rYRT5Tz Type s.cat, enjoy.
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  50. ISO #150
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#146)
    The weak PRs like that are functionally not much different from an innocent child, and so end up as a get-out-of-a-mislynch-free card and not much else. I'd rather have a VT then adjust the rest of the setup to compensate.
    Just adding to this, sometimes the entire point of the PRs being added is innochild lite. Expanding on that, I think Visitor would be the way to go. Visitor in a symetrical tracker setup or something.

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Mafia Universe is a community hub for people who enjoy playing the forum variant of Mafia (also known as Werewolf). We offer fully automated Mafia games and a wide variety of customized features crafted to optimize your game experience. We also proudly host the Internet's only database of Mafia/Werewolf communities.

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Role of the Day
Penguin

The Penguin may target a player each night and tell them a secret about another player in the game. The player that the secret is being told about is chosen randomly and so is the content of the secret. If the game features multiple Penguins and one of them visits the other, they will mate, causing all other actions that night to be blocked (can only happen once per game).