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Thread: Mafia Championship Season 6 Setup - Suggestion/Discussion Thread

  1. ISO #151
    it's been fun Cuthalion's Avatar Community Contributor
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    whenever i've played d6 (1-2 times) people've been massively confused about what the setup was

  2. ISO #152
    it's been fun Cuthalion's Avatar Community Contributor
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    to be fair that could be aided by good explanation and maybe some charts

    but it's not the most normal/intuitive setup

    besides any other issue

    could see that being an issue here

  3. ISO #153
    WIFOM Guy Logic's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuthalion (#151)
    whenever i've played d6 (1-2 times) people've been massively confused about what the setup was
    I STILL don't quite understand how d6 ends up with the roles it does, and I've read the description literally more than a dozen times.

    And I like the idea of both vengeful and bodyguard (not on the same player), contrary to the opinions of Zack (and likely the majority.)
    Last edited by Logic; March 15th, 2019 at 08:35 AM.

  4. ISO #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logic (#153)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuthalion (#151)
    whenever i've played d6 (1-2 times) people've been massively confused about what the setup was
    I STILL don't quite understand how d6 ends up with the roles it does, and I've read the description literally more than a dozen times.

    And I like the idea of both vengeful and bodyguard (not on the same player), contrary to the opinions of Zack (and likely the majority.)
    I didn't understand it at first either, I'll try to explain.

    Roll a die. If the number is 1-3, mark down I. If it's 4-5, mark down P. If it's 6, mark down K.

    Repeat this six times.

    Look at how many Is, for investigative, you wrote down. For example, if you have three Is (i.e. you rolled a number between 1-3 three out of six times), add a town role cop.

    Repeat this process for P and K. Let's say you got 3 P and 0 K, so add a town roleblocker.

    Once you have the power roles from this, add vanilla town to fill in the remaining spots. There should be 10 villagers total, so in our example add 8 VTs.

    The number of mafia PRs equals the number of town PRs minus one. We have two town PRs, so we need one mafia PR.

    Roll a die. Let's say we got a 5, so we add a mafia tracker.

    Fill in the remaining spots with mafia goons so there are three total wolves. In our case, we add two goons.

    So our example setup is:

    8 VTs
    1 town role cop
    1 town roleblocker

    2 mafia goons
    1 mafia tracker

    Does it make sense now? I typed this out on my phone so apologies for any mistakes. I quoted the full setup in post #90 which should make it easier to follow along, the charts in particular.

  5. ISO #155
    I played a 13/3 once that was 12 vanilla villagers, 3 goons, and 1 villa JOAT (1x vig, 1x angel, 1x rb) with assigned wolf kills that seemed solid

  6. ISO #156
    WIFOM Guy Logic's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#154)
    Quote Originally Posted by Logic (#153)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuthalion (#151)
    whenever i've played d6 (1-2 times) people've been massively confused about what the setup was
    I STILL don't quite understand how d6 ends up with the roles it does, and I've read the description literally more than a dozen times.

    And I like the idea of both vengeful and bodyguard (not on the same player), contrary to the opinions of Zack (and likely the majority.)
    I didn't understand it at first either, I'll try to explain.

    Roll a die. If the number is 1-3, mark down I. If it's 4-5, mark down P. If it's 6, mark down K.

    Repeat this six times.

    Look at how many Is, for investigative, you wrote down. For example, if you have three Is (i.e. you rolled a number between 1-3 three out of six times), add a town role cop.

    Repeat this process for P and K. Let's say you got 3 P and 0 K, so add a town roleblocker.

    Once you have the power roles from this, add vanilla town to fill in the remaining spots. There should be 10 villagers total, so in our example add 8 VTs.

    The number of mafia PRs equals the number of town PRs minus one. We have two town PRs, so we need one mafia PR.

    Roll a die. Let's say we got a 5, so we add a mafia tracker.

    Fill in the remaining spots with mafia goons so there are three total wolves. In our case, we add two goons.

    So our example setup is:

    8 VTs
    1 town role cop
    1 town roleblocker

    2 mafia goons
    1 mafia tracker

    Does it make sense now? I typed this out on my phone so apologies for any mistakes. I quoted the full setup in post #90 which should make it easier to follow along, the charts in particular.
    I think I finally get it.
    I was thinking you keep adding results together. So if you rolled three 3s, then you have 9 points in investigative to divy out. And since I knew that was wrong, I could not wrap my head around how it actually worked, because my brain kept interpreting it the same way. Your explanation finally clicked for me. Thanks Zack.

  7. ISO #157
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Something I just remembered: when I was designing the role madness setup, initially I was planning to give Ninja modifiers to a couple of the roles. The reason I changed my mind was that I realized the Ninja modifier affected all night actions, whereas I wanted the Ninja to only apply to the nightkill. If the Ninja modifier could be changed in Modbot to work this way, then we could add that to the setup so that someone who gets watched visiting the nightkilled player would still have a way to argue their way out of a lynch.

  8. ISO #158
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Also, after seeing Mountainous Poison in action I'm a bit more optimistic than before about its suitability as a Champs format. The town had a realistic chance of winning despite not playing very well on average, and I think much of that was because the wolves didn't want to make early nightkills on the few players who were actually a threat to them.

  9. ISO #159
    Soul Reader Jackofhearts2005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuthalion (#151)
    whenever i've played d6 (1-2 times) people've been massively confused about what the setup was
    This is a feature, not a bug.

  10. ISO #160
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#158)
    Also, after seeing Mountainous Poison in action I'm a bit more optimistic than before about its suitability as a Champs format. The town had a realistic chance of winning despite not playing very well on average, and I think much of that was because the wolves didn't want to make early nightkills on the few players who were actually a threat to them.
    What do people think about Mountainous Poison as a Champs setup?

    12x Vanilla Town
    4x Mafia Goon


    Instead of killing a player each night, the mafia must poison a town player. The identity of the poisoned player is revealed at the start of day, and they die after the next lynch. Fake poison is not allowed. Poisoning a mafia member is not allowed.
    Last edited by Thingyman; March 17th, 2019 at 11:17 AM.

  11. ISO #161
    Zack's Avatar
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    How does lylo work?

  12. ISO #162
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#160)
    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#158)
    Also, after seeing Mountainous Poison in action I'm a bit more optimistic than before about its suitability as a Champs format. The town had a realistic chance of winning despite not playing very well on average, and I think much of that was because the wolves didn't want to make early nightkills on the few players who were actually a threat to them.
    What do people think about Mountainous Poison as a Champs setup?

    12x Vanilla Town
    4x Mafia Goon


    Instead of killing a player each night, the mafia must poison a town player. The identity of the poisoned player is revealed at the start of day, and they die after the next lynch. Fake poison is not allowed. Poisoning a mafia member is not allowed.
    It's an extremely interesting setup. Better than classic mountainous for champs.

  13. ISO #163
    #BetterThanYou
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    Something fairly roled based off commonly used roles, SIMILAR TO C9++, is probably best.

    "You're stupid, C9++ results in some really bro-"

    I didn't say run C9++. For the purpose of champs, there should be no indy roles. There shouldn't be any custom, uniquely designed roles. Make everything fairly well known. You can remove cop from the pool, as we have in the past. Just a quick 13er I came up with, literally right now:

    Doc
    Tracker
    1x vig
    7x VT

    Goon
    Roleblocker
    1x Rolecop

    Something like that... there's enough roles in the game to make it NOT remotely mountainous (which should never, ever be considered FOR CHAMPS), not enough roles it becomes a solve by claim game, and nothing is powerful enough to tip the game in one side's favor.

  14. ISO #164
    Zack's Avatar
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    I think a 17er setup is better to keep the number of games from spiraling out of control. There was a big push for 17er setups last year primarily because of that.

  15. ISO #165
    Zack's Avatar
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    (better than a 13er)

  16. ISO #166
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#164)
    I think a 17er setup is better to keep the number of games from spiraling out of control. There was a big push for 17er setups last year primarily because of that.
    I think the first priority should be player enjoyment. How much do the players enjoy the game.

    So ultimately, it should just come down to figuring out the best setup that we can - and if it's for 13 players, then we'll roll with that, and if it's 17 players, we roll with that.

    13 creates some organizational and jury-related issues. But that has to be second priority, I think. We will work it out if it comes to that.

  17. ISO #167
    Zack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#166)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#164)
    I think a 17er setup is better to keep the number of games from spiraling out of control. There was a big push for 17er setups last year primarily because of that.
    I think the first priority should be player enjoyment. How much do the players enjoy the game.

    So ultimately, it should just come down to figuring out the best setup that we can - and if it's for 13 players, then we'll roll with that, and if it's 17 players, we roll with that.

    13 creates some organizational and jury-related issues. But that has to be second priority, I think. We will work it out if it comes to that.
    I don't think it's a meaningful difference for player enjoyment, but it is a meaningful difference for organizational and jury purposes.

    There's no reason a 17er would be less enjoyable than a 13er. I played in a season that used 13ers and a season that used 17ers, and I honestly can't recall a single comment made by a player on the size of the game affecting their enjoyment in either case.

  18. ISO #168
    Season 5 Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#167)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#166)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#164)
    I think a 17er setup is better to keep the number of games from spiraling out of control. There was a big push for 17er setups last year primarily because of that.
    I think the first priority should be player enjoyment. How much do the players enjoy the game.

    So ultimately, it should just come down to figuring out the best setup that we can - and if it's for 13 players, then we'll roll with that, and if it's 17 players, we roll with that.

    13 creates some organizational and jury-related issues. But that has to be second priority, I think. We will work it out if it comes to that.
    I don't think it's a meaningful difference for player enjoyment, but it is a meaningful difference for organizational and jury purposes.

    There's no reason a 17er would be less enjoyable than a 13er. I played in a season that used 13ers and a season that used 17ers, and I honestly can't recall a single comment made by a player on the size of the game affecting their enjoyment in either case.
    Counterpoint: volume.

    It absolutely became an issue in the later games of Season 5 of champs, and the volume problem would be mitigated somewhat by simply having fewer players to post from the very start.

  19. ISO #169
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#167)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#166)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#164)
    I think a 17er setup is better to keep the number of games from spiraling out of control. There was a big push for 17er setups last year primarily because of that.
    I think the first priority should be player enjoyment. How much do the players enjoy the game.

    So ultimately, it should just come down to figuring out the best setup that we can - and if it's for 13 players, then we'll roll with that, and if it's 17 players, we roll with that.

    13 creates some organizational and jury-related issues. But that has to be second priority, I think. We will work it out if it comes to that.
    I don't think it's a meaningful difference for player enjoyment, but it is a meaningful difference for organizational and jury purposes.

    There's no reason a 17er would be less enjoyable than a 13er. I played in a season that used 13ers and a season that used 17ers, and I honestly can't recall a single comment made by a player on the size of the game affecting their enjoyment in either case.
    What GH says, volume. Going from 13 active players to 17 active players - and also requiring more days of activity should you not die early - is not insignificant at all.

    But what I actually meant was: Let's not limit ourselves to either 13 or 17. Let's work out the best setup. If the best setup is a 13-man setup, then we'll use that. If it's a 17-man setup, we'll use that.

  20. ISO #170
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Possible solution:

    Do a remastered version of 2x5?

  21. ISO #171
    No offense to you guys but I don’t know why you all are trying to make a problem out of nothing.
    Soah’s setup is a beauty of a design and is absolutely perfect for champs. I’m convinced that guy is a genius. It has a ton of power roles, but none that are overbearing. You can’t massclaim to win because roles are NAI. It’s a setup that makes you display mechanical ability and good wolf hunting/fooling skills. It’s perfect for all communities, because it’s easy to pick up for the rare non PR heavy sites (like MU), and fits the metas of the vast majority that relies on a lot of power roles. There are no roles that can slant the voting heavily because each one does not have that much of an impact. The cops in the setup can only be done n2 or n3, a wolf can rand them, and there are countless ways to interfere with them. Besides, playing around a cop is a valuable wolf strategy, and any players that get peeked will have at the very minimum 2 full days to show their stuff. I cannot see one downside to Soah’s setup and it’s ludicruoue that everyone is trying to re-invent something when you have a perfect one here.

  22. ISO #172
    Also, what’s up with me not being able to edit my spelling error

  23. ISO #173
    And as a final note Soah has suggested modifications that make sense to get rid of the watcher problem. Like I said that guy is brilliant and you should listen to him.

  24. ISO #174
    Also: just a few notes on champs in general:

    Last years setups were way to wolfsided for any site whose meta was not MU

    mountainous is detested by literally everyone I’ve seen except MU

    D6 is one of the most complicated things I’ve ever played, I’ve seen it dozens of times across two sites at this point and it’s hopelessly confusing. It’s like the worst idea for a champs setup I could think of because nobody would undertand it

    If you guys really really really dislike Soah’s setup, then Sunbae’s suggestion seems to fit all of your requirements and looks fun.

  25. ISO #175
    Zack's Avatar
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    SETUP DETAILS FOR 2X5

    This is a semi-open grid setup meant for 17 players: 4 mafia versus 13 townies.

    Column 1 Column 2
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Role Cop
    Row A Town Even Night Vigilante
    Town Roleblocker
    Town 1-shot Neapolitan
    Town Even Night Vigilante
    Town Roleblocker
    Town Tracker
    Row B Town Even Night Vigilante
    Town Jailkeeper
    Town Even Night Vigilante
    Town Jailkeeper
    Town Voyeur
    Row C Town Tracker
    Town Jailkeeper
    Town Tracker
    Town Jailkeeper
    Town Voyeur
    Row D Town Tracker
    Town Roleblocker
    Town Voyeur
    Town Jack of All Trades*
    Town Even Night Vigilante
    Town Motion Detector
    Row E Town Doctor
    Town Jack of All Trades*
    Town Doctor
    Town Roleblocker
    Town Motion Detector

    *Town Jack of All Trades: 1x Vigilante, 1x Roleblocker, 1x Tracker.

    Method for randing:
    First you randomly select a number to decide the mafia team's composition of Power Roles (1-2), then you randomly select a letter to decide the town's composition of Power Roles (A-E). Fill in the number of Vanilla Townies needed to make the town team have 13 members total, and you have your setup. I.e. if you randed 2 and B then you'd get the following setup:

    Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia Role Cop
    vs.
    Town Even Night Vigilante, Town Jailkeeper, Town Voyeur, 10 Vanilla Townies

    So the general idea is that as a townie, you know you're up against one of 2 possible mafia team compositions. And as a mafia you know you're up against one of 5 possible town team compositions. The more powerful the mafia team is, the more power is given to the town team, naturally.

    Important setup notes:
    • The mafia's factional kill must be assigned to a single member of their team each night. This means that the mafia's factional kill can, for example, be blocked by a Town Jailkeeper or tracked by a Town Tracker.
    • None of the included roles can self-target, including the protective roles.
    • Doctors, Jailkeepers, and Roleblockers are not allowed to target the same players on consecutive nights.
    • The Even Night Vigilante may only shoot on even nights (i.e. Night 2, Night 4, etc.).
    • The Voyeur's own action will not show up in their result.
    • There are no night 0 actions (aka pre-game actions).

    Role explanations:
    Please go to this page to read about the different roles if you're unfamiliar with them: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...oles-Modifiers

    • Majority will be in effect starting Day 2. Day 2 onward will end the instant a majority is reached.
    • Town wins when all threats to Town have been eliminated.
    • Mafia factions win when they achieve Parity and all other evil factions have been eliminated at any time.
    • Votes are not automatically locked at LYLO.
    • No Lynching is enabled. Vote for No Lynch to forgo a lynch that Day.
    • Mafia factional kills are mandatory. Mafia must submit a factional kill each night, or a player outside their faction will be chosen at random.
    • Mafia factional kills are assigned. They can be tracked, watched, or roleblocked.
    • Mafia may communicate at any time.
    • Tied votes will result in a player being lynched at random from among the tied players.


    Last year's 2x5 setup spoilered above.

    Option 1: Replace voyeurs and motion detectors with a 1-shot neapolitan or 1-shot role cop or something. Or just leave it the same. Maybe make some minor tweaks.

    Option 2: I kinda just threw this together.

    I sorted roles into different buckets:

    (1) Killing - Vigilante, JOAT (JOAT being in here is somewhat arbitrary)
    (2) Nightkill - Doctor, Jailkeeper, Roleblocker
    (3) Investigative - Neapolitan, Role Cop, Tracker

    Column 1 follows this pattern: Killing + Nightkill + limited Investigative, except for Row D (which replaces the limited investigative with a limited killing). 4 goons is kind of lame, and it's easier to design more interesting setups around a 3 goon + 1 roleblocker wolf team IMO.

    Column 2 follows this pattern: Nightkill + Investigative + limited Killing. I made the Mafia Rolecop a JOAT because I can, and added an odd night tracker which is weak but still of some use to compensate.

    I avoided combinations like Doctor + Roleblocker which can prolong the game and make everyone miserable. Every game has at least one town vig shot.

    Like I said, I threw this together fairly quickly, so feel free to rip it apart.

    Column 1 Column 2
    3x Goon
    1x Roleblocker
    2x Goon
    1x Odd Night Tracker
    1x JOAT (1x Role Cop, 1x Watcher, 1x Neapolitan)
    Row A Even Night Vigilante
    Doctor
    Odd Night Role Cop
    Jailkeeper
    Tracker
    Night 2 Vigilante
    Row B Even Night Vigilante
    Jailkeeper
    1-shot Neapolitan
    Jailkeeper
    Neapolitan
    Night 2 Vigilante
    Row C Even Night Vigilante
    Roleblocker
    Tracker
    Jailkeeper
    Role Cop
    2-shot Vigilante
    Row D JOAT (1x Vig, 1x Roleblock, 1x Track)
    Doctor
    Night 2 Vigilante
    Roleblocker
    Role Cop
    Even Night Vigilante
    Row E JOAT (1x Vig, 1x Roleblock, 1x Track)
    Jailkeeper
    1-shot Role Cop
    Roleblocker
    Neapolitan
    Even Night Vigilante

  26. ISO #176
    #BetterThanYou
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    I threw this together fairly quickly, so feel free to rip it apart.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ISA/edit#gid=0

    Some similarities to Zack's. I wanted there to be a mafia power role on every team, so I did 3x goon and tracker, then 2x goon + jailkeeper. I did consider roleblocker instead, but I opted for JK to offset the vig shots (which could be + or - for either side). I pretty much stole my JOAT from last's year's setup and replaced the tracker with a rolecop due to swapping of the mafia PR. I'm not married to any of it

    One setup in each has no vig shot, but the rest mostly have 1+ kill, some sort of protection, and either an investigation or support role (or both). The colors were very quick, rough estimates of relative power within the group, intended to reflect that setup. For example, town's rolecop is less powerful in setup 2GC than 3GF, as both mafia roles are mirrored by town.

    Again, I basically rushed to get it done.

  27. ISO #177
    #BetterThanYou
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    Also, I kind of ran out of creativity towards the end. I was thinking 2x4, or even 2x3, would be better.

  28. ISO #178
    Zack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris (#177)
    Also, I kind of ran out of creativity towards the end. I was thinking 2x4, or even 2x3, would be better.
    I also had this thought

    Maybe even a 3x3 and switch up the wolf roles a bit more

  29. ISO #179
    #BetterThanYou
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#178)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris (#177)
    Also, I kind of ran out of creativity towards the end. I was thinking 2x4, or even 2x3, would be better.
    I also had this thought

    Maybe even a 3x3 and switch up the wolf roles a bit more
    I'd be fine with one version of 3+1, and then two different 2+2's. Makes it a little harder for town to know exactly what setup they're in.

  30. ISO #180
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris (#179)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#178)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris (#177)
    Also, I kind of ran out of creativity towards the end. I was thinking 2x4, or even 2x3, would be better.
    I also had this thought

    Maybe even a 3x3 and switch up the wolf roles a bit more
    I'd be fine with one version of 3+1, and then two different 2+2's. Makes it a little harder for town to know exactly what setup they're in.
    If people generically like the X by Y structure and just want to tweak to make it more role-heavy...

    Could do some kind of X by 3 thing with:

    You need to flip both scum PRs before it's clear you're in column 3, and if that happens early the wolves are $#@!ed anyway so *shrugs*
    Another thought: maybe we tweak the numbers a bit? Instead of 13x4, maybe we run like 12x4 or 11x4, but then town can get up to four PRs instead of a 3 cap? That allows for some stronger potential PR combos if we want to push things a bit towards the role madness end of the pool.

    I was too lazy to go a full x by 5 but figured that a smaller # of rows might illustrate the concept reasonably?

  31. ISO #181
    Klopp Killa Panther's Avatar
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    I’ll read this thread eventually but my gut take is that soah’s setup will be more fun to play and to spectate than mountainous. Plus zack’s valid critique of mountainous.

    Would be curious if Apoc, visor, zack, etc would tweak soah’s setup in any way role-wise

    Look forward to spending too much time thinking about this

  32. ISO #182
    Loansharking Blot Test Newcomb's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Just gonna throw it out there - different seasons have put more emphasis on testing different skills than others, and unless we run fully closed games at some point, we're kind of missing a pretty big swath of mafia. Most of the sites I'm familiar with, closed setups are the norm and open/semi-open are more variety/novelty.

    The obvious problems are a) the setups need to be unique, b) it feels weird to have different games using different setups, in a championship.

    You could mitigate that by having the same team design all setups - probably a mix of the current / former greens, minus anyone who isn't playing - and put either hard or soft boundaries on what the setups will be like. Soft boundaries: "Low-complexity with an emphasis on eliminating swing". Hard boundaries: "Here is a list of all roles that may appear."

    If we want to have a series that actually "tests" how wolves and villagers actually handle claims / fakeclaims, this would be the way to do it IMO.

  33. ISO #183
    Zack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panther (#181)
    I’ll read this thread eventually but my gut take is that soah’s setup will be more fun to play and to spectate than mountainous. Plus zack’s valid critique of mountainous.

    Would be curious if Apoc, visor, zack, etc would tweak soah’s setup in any way role-wise

    Look forward to spending too much time thinking about this
    I think soah's setup would probably be more fun to play and spectate, but some people are skeptical/uncomfortable with the amount of roles in the game, even though most are pretty minor. It still seems fine to me, maybe a few small tweaks would be good. After thinking about it more I'm fine with the peeks, they're fairly limited in a way that mitigates most of the issues I have with cops in champs. I'd make the watchers unable to see the nightkill, maybe. I'm still not sure why the factional kill should be optional instead of mandatory, but I imagine it's not going to matter 95% of the time anyways.

    Should run some test games

  34. ISO #184
    Zack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#183)
    Quote Originally Posted by Panther (#181)
    I’ll read this thread eventually but my gut take is that soah’s setup will be more fun to play and to spectate than mountainous. Plus zack’s valid critique of mountainous.

    Would be curious if Apoc, visor, zack, etc would tweak soah’s setup in any way role-wise

    Look forward to spending too much time thinking about this
    I think soah's setup would probably be more fun to play and spectate, but some people are skeptical/uncomfortable with the amount of roles in the game, even though most are pretty minor. It still seems fine to me, maybe a few small tweaks would be good. After thinking about it more I'm fine with the peeks, they're fairly limited in a way that mitigates most of the issues I have with cops in champs. I'd make the watchers unable to see the nightkill, maybe. I'm still not sure why the factional kill should be optional instead of mandatory, but I imagine it's not going to matter 95% of the time anyways.

    Should run some test games
    *I think soah's setup would probably be more fun to play and spectate than the other setups brought up, including any of mine

    I'm guessing most communities enjoy role madness quite a lot, and likely more than other options.

  35. ISO #185
    Soul Reader SilverKeith's Avatar
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    I agree that having 2x5 again, while good, wouldn't be as interesting as role madness. I think changing the set up every season is always better even if it makes some ammount of people unhappy, in favor of keeping things exciting/fresh and allowing to see different types of players and playstyles. Which prolly means playing mountainous once every 4 seasons or something like that, playing mountainous arson for season 10, witchhunt for season 25, and just a mash with all the communities for season 100.

    I think Soah set up is fine, the posible issues that have been talked about already could be addressed with some tweaks and the set up would prolly still be good.

  36. ISO #186
    Having "too many roles" is not something that should be very important. Most sites I know apart from MU are very role heavy anyway. If this is really a community event, we should tailor it to the communities at large instead of what makes people on MU comfortable. Besides, Soah's set is designed in a way that makes it so many of the problems with role madness setups are taken care of. Does anyone have any problems at all with Soah's setup besides the fact that it just seems like too many roles? Because if not, then I'm wondering why you all are even talking in the first place.

  37. ISO #187
    Wants It More Chemist1422's Avatar
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    About soah's setup, the main concern I see is that outing info is not damaging enough for town. In a normal setup, town has to either hide the PRs and risk losing the info or out them and potentially lose them. If everyone's a PR, there's just a bunch of info free for the taking.

  38. ISO #188
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    It's a lot easier for the wolves to plan everything if they know everyone's role.

    For example, everyone mass claims and then the cop dies n3 even though the doctor was supposed to protect them. Town loses a peek, and what do they get in return? The doctor might be lying about having protected the cop that night. The roleblocker or JK or a JOAT might have blocked doctor. Or it could have been a strongman kill. Even the voyeur targeting the doctor doesn't give enough info because the voyeur can't distinguish between rb and jk... and you don't know that the voyeur is town anyway. Maybe the tracker targeted the doctor and confirms that he visited the cop that night... but it could be that the doctor was the one who made the nightkill, or it could have been a strongman kill... or the tracker could be lying.

    The wolves know which claim battles they can win, so if they know everyone's role then they can choose their battles very carefully.

    The roles in this game aren't designed to give the town a ton of info. They're designed to make it difficult for the wolves to kill who they want on the early nights. The town can't do this as effectively if the wolves know who they are.

  39. ISO #189
    #BetterThanYou
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    My big concern with Soah's setup is the no reveal of roles. I feel that's something that would be undesirable to a lot of communities, and I don't know how people will do with trying to evaluate potential roles from unclaimed deaths (if at all). I can't remember if there were any games where the cop didn't claim/leave peeks in Season 2 prior to death.

    Beyond that, I don't think the number of roles makes it bad. They're more or less all minimal impact.

  40. ISO #190
    #BetterThanYou
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#182)
    Just gonna throw it out there - different seasons have put more emphasis on testing different skills than others, and unless we run fully closed games at some point, we're kind of missing a pretty big swath of mafia. Most of the sites I'm familiar with, closed setups are the norm and open/semi-open are more variety/novelty.

    The obvious problems are a) the setups need to be unique, b) it feels weird to have different games using different setups, in a championship.

    You could mitigate that by having the same team design all setups - probably a mix of the current / former greens, minus anyone who isn't playing - and put either hard or soft boundaries on what the setups will be like. Soft boundaries: "Low-complexity with an emphasis on eliminating swing". Hard boundaries: "Here is a list of all roles that may appear."

    If we want to have a series that actually "tests" how wolves and villagers actually handle claims / fakeclaims, this would be the way to do it IMO.
    This was Season 1. I don't recall the EXACT reason we moved away from it - beyond the tournament just originating from 2+2 and they play a lot of the 13er cop setup.

    I don't disagree about claims and fakeclaims, though. That is a significant component to mafia skill, and it doesn't necessarily get utilized as much.

  41. ISO #191
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris (#190)
    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#182)
    Just gonna throw it out there - different seasons have put more emphasis on testing different skills than others, and unless we run fully closed games at some point, we're kind of missing a pretty big swath of mafia. Most of the sites I'm familiar with, closed setups are the norm and open/semi-open are more variety/novelty.

    The obvious problems are a) the setups need to be unique, b) it feels weird to have different games using different setups, in a championship.

    You could mitigate that by having the same team design all setups - probably a mix of the current / former greens, minus anyone who isn't playing - and put either hard or soft boundaries on what the setups will be like. Soft boundaries: "Low-complexity with an emphasis on eliminating swing". Hard boundaries: "Here is a list of all roles that may appear."

    If we want to have a series that actually "tests" how wolves and villagers actually handle claims / fakeclaims, this would be the way to do it IMO.
    This was Season 1. I don't recall the EXACT reason we moved away from it - beyond the tournament just originating from 2+2 and they play a lot of the 13er cop setup.

    I don't disagree about claims and fakeclaims, though. That is a significant component to mafia skill, and it doesn't necessarily get utilized as much.
    Yeah, we did this for Season 1.

    One problem with doing it, besides the fact that we'd be repeating something we've done before, is that it favors MU'ers, since they'd be better able to figure out the setup. I.e. as an MU'er who's played many games here you have a better sense of how we balance and design games here, whereas an off-site player doesn't.

  42. ISO #192
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    DECISION:

    I very much believe that it's best to change the setup each year to allow for different communities and metas to shine. There are always some players and some communities that will be dissatisfied, but that's the reason we're doing it - those that have been wanting role heavy games have not had that for 5 seasons. So it's time we do it.

    The plan: We go with soah's setup. We immediately tweak/test it to see if it's viable. I need your help with this.

    If it's not viable, the back-up plan is to make a different version of 2x5.

  43. ISO #193
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Specifically, I'd like us to immediately start sign-ups for a 12/12 game with soah's setup. Maybe @soah himself would like to host?

    And while people are signing up, we use that time to make any tweaks we think the setup needs.

    Also, I think someone needs to run out the scenario where everyone massclaims on Day 1. CAN the game be "broken" in this way, with certain role rands? Or is it always a benefit for the mafia to have claims on Day 1?
    Last edited by Thingyman; March 18th, 2019 at 05:22 AM.

  44. ISO #194
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#193)
    Maybe @soah himself would like to host?
    I was actually hoping for a chance to play this setup since I've already hosted it myself.

    As for the mass claim d1, maybe just run a turbo where all the roles are published at the start of the game and see what happens. I think it would still be fun and interesting to play that way.

  45. ISO #195
    Soul Reader LanMisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#193)
    Specifically, I'd like us to immediately start sign-ups for a 12/12 game with soah's setup. Maybe @soah himself would like to host?

    And while people are signing up, we use that time to make any tweaks we think the setup needs.

    Also, I think someone needs to run out the scenario where everyone massclaims on Day 1. CAN the game be "broken" in this way, with certain role rands? Or is it always a benefit for the mafia to have claims on Day 1?
    Let's test it out in a turbo or some other short game where we do exactly that.

  46. ISO #196
    Soul Reader LanMisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#194)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#193)
    Maybe @soah himself would like to host?
    I was actually hoping for a chance to play this setup since I've already hosted it myself.

    As for the mass claim d1, maybe just run a turbo where all the roles are published at the start of the game and see what happens. I think it would still be fun and interesting to play that way.
    Didn't see your reply... anyways, I could host this as a special-run game without flavour. It's an automated game, so all I have to do is to create a DVC, a discord for wolves and set up the roles, right? And once D5 comes I manually block the remainding roles?

  47. ISO #197
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#192)
    DECISION:

    I very much believe that it's best to change the setup each year to allow for different communities and metas to shine. There are always some players and some communities that will be dissatisfied, but that's the reason we're doing it - those that have been wanting role heavy games have not had that for 5 seasons. So it's time we do it.

    The plan: We go with soah's setup. We immediately tweak/test it to see if it's viable. I need your help with this.

    If it's not viable, the back-up plan is to make a different version of 2x5.

  48. ISO #198
    GOAT Tier JohnCarter's Avatar
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    the redacted role shouldn't be a thing at the very least imo... full role flips please...

  49. ISO #199
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Then it becomes impossible to fake claim a role, and that defeats the purpose of doing role madness in the first place.

  50. ISO #200
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    Can't wait for this season!

    When's my game start?

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