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Thread: Season 6 Setup: Mad17

  1. ISO #51
    Wants It More El-ahrairah's Avatar
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    Maybe it could be tested a couple more times? I would be down for testing if we could do something with Euro-friendly deadlines.

  2. ISO #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#49)
    It would be a disaster for the mafia to win all games. I need someone to reassure me that this won't happen, if we're going with this setup :P
    The second game (the one that just ended) can be essentially considered a villa win for balance purposes.

    Villa lynched wolves d1, d2 and d3. Then they mislynched d4 but agreed on a plan to have the last wolf jailkept n4. The jker after agreeing explicitly to the plan during the day, forgot to submit at night causing the last wolf to be cleared and win in f3.

    Idr expect stuff like this to happen normally

    But it is true that this setup punishes bad play more than other setups, so if you expect champs villages to be bad then yes wolves could win a lot

    Anyway best you can do is try to run it some more and see how it goes; if you want to make it more wolfsided it may make qualifiers more balanced but it will penalize wolves in wildcards/finale imo

    (this is not to say that wolves did not earn their win, just that this game was a bit of an outlier)

  3. ISO #53
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    I've always felt weird about the ninja modifiers. Do you really want to keep those, @soah?

    But yeah, let's have a couple more test games.

    Let's do a 12/12 with Euro deadlines and a 12/12 light game perhaps. If the light game has a low enough post restriction, I might even sign up myself.

  4. ISO #54
    Wants It More El-ahrairah's Avatar
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    Ooh I will wait for a longer phase testing as 12/12 is chronologically impossible for me. I will spectate 12/12 as much as I'm able, tho

  5. ISO #55
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by El-ahrairah (#53)
    Ooh I will wait for a longer phase testing as 12/12 is chronologically impossible for me. I will spectate 12/12 as much as I'm able, tho
    Could you do 36/12 with Euro deadlines?

  6. ISO #56
    Wants It More El-ahrairah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#54)
    Quote Originally Posted by El-ahrairah (#53)
    Ooh I will wait for a longer phase testing as 12/12 is chronologically impossible for me. I will spectate 12/12 as much as I'm able, tho
    Could you do 36/12 with Euro deadlines?
    Sure. Basically anything except 12/12 is feasible for me.

  7. ISO #57
    Soul Reader Soneji's Avatar
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    Yeah a 36/12 test game would be ideal for me too.

  8. ISO #58
    Everyone's mom dyachei's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    It's more townsided than not, thingyman. I'd be shocked if mafia won all the games tbqh

    I think if you were to tweak it you'd need to make it slightly less townsided. However, I expect there to be a wide variety of play style and experience representing champs. It might be more ok for that. But as mafia against a competent town it felt impossible

  9. ISO #59
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    I need someone to very clearly lay out for me (or well, @Makaze) whether there are still things in this setup that we need to add to the bot.

  10. ISO #60
    Soul Reader AndrewGreve's Avatar
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    I thought it was fine. Once village gets really good at all claim timings and stuff I think it is townsided.

  11. ISO #61
    Loser Beck's Avatar
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    Count me in for a light test game.

  12. ISO #62
    Furry Collective Keeper of the Swans Michelle's Avatar
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    I played both games, one in wolf team, where the team had two very strong players and the full wolf team won at the end of game.

    About the game where i was town I can't say more that i felt the penalty of bad playing on myself.

    The game balance is changing very much depending on players' level.

  13. ISO #63
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    I think the balance is fine if everyone plays their roles correctly, or even close to it. But all three games have had at least one town player do something extremely bad which hurt their team a lot (though in the game last year they got lucky and the mistake ended up not mattering much). So part of me thinks the setup is fine. Part of me wonders if we need to account for bad play. I'd be fine with just leaving it alone. The town has gotten a tangible benefit from its roles in each game, or at least had a clear opportunity for it that was wasted by indefensible bad play.

    The Ninja is in there because you guys didn't want anyone to be 100% outed by a Watcher. Its effect on balance is small.

    The only potential Modbot issue is that I think most of us think that Ninja should only affect the nightkill and not the regular actions for the role.

  14. ISO #64
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    It would also be nice if the setup could be programmed as a preset option so that hosts don't have to input all 17 roles each time, but that's not vital.

  15. ISO #65
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    fwiw i have a vague feeling there might be semi-breaking strategies where the mechanics can be pushed in ways that advantage town, but I'm not really sure what they might be (block/vig the wolfy players and the anti-town villagers, protect/watch the people who are both villagery and useful, is obvious as a strategy, but it might be possible to farm early claiming data in protown ways that are nonobvious)

    it MIGHT be useful to run one of the test setups given a d1 massclaim (where everyone just agrees to do that as part of the game, pre-rand) and see if anything powerfully protown comes out of it

    beyond that, i'd tend to agree that we're looking at the sort of setup that has a strong tendency to snowball towards whoever is winning early, since many of the roles in the game (rb, jk, tracker) become massively stronger as the # of wolves decrease. Not sure there's really any way around that, it's simply in the nature of any role madness setup.

  16. ISO #66
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#62)
    I think the balance is fine if everyone plays their roles correctly, or even close to it. But all three games have had at least one town player do something extremely bad which hurt their team a lot (though in the game last year they got lucky and the mistake ended up not mattering much). So part of me thinks the setup is fine. Part of me wonders if we need to account for bad play. I'd be fine with just leaving it alone. The town has gotten a tangible benefit from its roles in each game, or at least had a clear opportunity for it that was wasted by indefensible bad play.

    The Ninja is in there because you guys didn't want anyone to be 100% outed by a Watcher. Its effect on balance is small.

    The only potential Modbot issue is that I think most of us think that Ninja should only affect the nightkill and not the regular actions for the role.
    Is this the only Modbot issue? I thought there was something about still needing certain players to not use actions.

  17. ISO #67
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 (#64)
    fwiw i have a vague feeling there might be semi-breaking strategies where the mechanics can be pushed in ways that advantage town, but I'm not really sure what they might be (block/vig the wolfy players and the anti-town villagers, protect/watch the people who are both villagery and useful, is obvious as a strategy, but it might be possible to farm early claiming data in protown ways that are nonobvious)

    it MIGHT be useful to run one of the test setups given a d1 massclaim (where everyone just agrees to do that as part of the game, pre-rand) and see if anything powerfully protown comes out of it

    beyond that, i'd tend to agree that we're looking at the sort of setup that has a strong tendency to snowball towards whoever is winning early, since many of the roles in the game (rb, jk, tracker) become massively stronger as the # of wolves decrease. Not sure there's really any way around that, it's simply in the nature of any role madness setup.
    me and soah played out this scenario, and we couldn't find any way to break the setup

  18. ISO #68
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#65)
    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#62)
    I think the balance is fine if everyone plays their roles correctly, or even close to it. But all three games have had at least one town player do something extremely bad which hurt their team a lot (though in the game last year they got lucky and the mistake ended up not mattering much). So part of me thinks the setup is fine. Part of me wonders if we need to account for bad play. I'd be fine with just leaving it alone. The town has gotten a tangible benefit from its roles in each game, or at least had a clear opportunity for it that was wasted by indefensible bad play.

    The Ninja is in there because you guys didn't want anyone to be 100% outed by a Watcher. Its effect on balance is small.

    The only potential Modbot issue is that I think most of us think that Ninja should only affect the nightkill and not the regular actions for the role.
    Is this the only Modbot issue? I thought there was something about still needing certain players to not use actions.
    that's entirely fixed with the multiple nights change afaik

  19. ISO #69
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#65)
    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#62)
    I think the balance is fine if everyone plays their roles correctly, or even close to it. But all three games have had at least one town player do something extremely bad which hurt their team a lot (though in the game last year they got lucky and the mistake ended up not mattering much). So part of me thinks the setup is fine. Part of me wonders if we need to account for bad play. I'd be fine with just leaving it alone. The town has gotten a tangible benefit from its roles in each game, or at least had a clear opportunity for it that was wasted by indefensible bad play.

    The Ninja is in there because you guys didn't want anyone to be 100% outed by a Watcher. Its effect on balance is small.

    The only potential Modbot issue is that I think most of us think that Ninja should only affect the nightkill and not the regular actions for the role.
    Is this the only Modbot issue? I thought there was something about still needing certain players to not use actions.
    It would be great if it could be hardcoded so that roles can only act on specific nights. But it hasn't created any problems so far and probably won't. Just need very clear announcements from the host.

  20. ISO #70
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Regarding the snowball effect: That is much less of a problem in this setup than most role-heavy setups. Roles can't act after n4. Wolves can holster
    Few mechanically cleared players. Etc.

  21. ISO #71
    Soul Reader OrangeP47's Avatar
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    I'll ask here too I guess, but are we thinking about enabling maj now too? The first two games didn't have it except lylo but now the next two test games do. I didn't see this being discussed and am concerned about the inconsistency. I don't really have an opinion one way or the other what it should be, I just think all the tests should be the same on that front.

  22. ISO #72
    I'm fine with tied votes leading to a random kill: it's better than the situation where players in the last moments can tie the vote for a no lynch.

    I'm very much in favour of everyone having a role. It gives more substantial content to discuss which makes for a more interesting game. It's also more fun for town players than playing a villager.

    On my home site role madness is the norm and D1 activity is expected and not everyone will necessarily end up claiming. It's pro-scum for the town to just sit around and wait for claims.

  23. ISO #73
    GOAT Tier Shad's Avatar
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    I looked at this set-up and started thinking over some of the possibilities and wet myself a little.

  24. ISO #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#49)
    It would be a disaster for the mafia to win all games. I need someone to reassure me that this won't happen, if we're going with this setup :P
    I think it is unlikely for Mafia to win all setups. I don't think that it is significantly higher than the normal chance for balanced setups. The chance, however, does exist - obviously!

  25. ISO #75
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#23)
    I think maybe the setup needs have an element sort of like this:

    For each powerful role that the town gets, certain modifiers are added to the mafia team. So maybe we rank Alignment Cops, Watchers and Vigilantes as powerful roles (we can address them as "A" roles or whatever). There are 6 of these. If town gets all 6 of them, all 4 mafia roles get a modifier. If town gets 4 or 5, 3 of the mafia get modifiers. Etc. Something like this.

    And I'd therefore remove the strongman modifiers from Role Cop and Voyeur.
    What do people think about this suggestion? It's been suggested that the setup is at least slightly town-sided. And there are some very pro town rands that makes it difficult for mafia to maneuver.

  26. ISO #76
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    The downside is rolecop becomes supercharged for town, i think, since "oh this role now has a modifier" becomes an easy guilty, and "it doesn't" becomes a decent clear.

    Maybe there's a way to implement FACTIONAL kill modifiers, but I'm pretty sure modbot isn't setup to handle that sort of thing.

  27. ISO #77
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 (#76)
    The downside is rolecop becomes supercharged for town, i think, since "oh this role now has a modifier" becomes an easy guilty, and "it doesn't" becomes a decent clear.

    Maybe there's a way to implement FACTIONAL kill modifiers, but I'm pretty sure modbot isn't setup to handle that sort of thing.
    Replace Role Cop with Bodyguard or something else.

    Role Cop was already the most useless role, as many of these games end in mass claims.

  28. ISO #78
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    I know some people think Bodyguards aren't awesome in a Championship game, but here you're protecting other town roles, so it should be easier to argue and for everyone to understand the value of someone sacrificing themselves. And if they don't want to sacrifice themselves, they don't have to either. They just have the option.

    Ofc it's an utterly useless role for Mafia. Hmmm...

    Universal Backup is an option, but seems a bit strong? And also weird since it'd back up "n1" or "n2" roles.

    Motion Detector? Meh.

    Just something to replace it. Either that or we make a version of Role Cop that cannot investigate modifiers.

  29. ISO #79
    GOAT Tier Chemist1422's Avatar
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    I think a backup for a smaller range of roles would be more balanced but it does come with the disadvantage of knowing what the roles of dead players were

    Maybe a rolecop for dead players?

  30. ISO #80
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#79)
    I think a backup for a smaller range of roles would be more balanced but it does come with the disadvantage of knowing what the roles of dead players were

    Maybe a rolecop for dead players?
    Not supported

  31. ISO #81
    Soul Reader Soneji's Avatar
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    As the representative from one of the communities this is meant to appease : this set-up fails as being role-MADNESS, it fails as a balanced, skill driven set-up and above all it fails to be fun.


    1. Failure as role-madness : This set-up certainly has everyone having a role but it fails to fulfill the second part of that word, madness. As is, it is the furthest from madness, as there is no variation in what roles are in the game and the set-up invites the players to massclaim and fully control what all the roles in this set-up do in the most optimal, ordered manner. This is not what the vast majority of people want out of role-madness. Role-madness is supposed to still function like a standard game but spicier, with more random elements thrown in to spice up/speed up the game. It also appeals to puzzle solvers who like to piece together set-ups, who has what role and what the night actions could have been based on results given and who is trusted. Neither of these appealing factors are present in this set-up, all the actions are generally decided upon beforehand so there are few if any surprises in who targeted who and it's optimal for town to force a massclaim+have tight control over night actions so there is no pleasure of solving the puzzle, all the pieces are fully layed out in front of you already.


    2. Failure as a balanced, skill driven set-up : This set-up ranges from town-sided to extremely town-sided based on who rands the alignment cops and vigilantes, with little in the way of showing off skill with power roles given the open nature of everyone's roles and them being controlled for an optimal plan to reduce the PoE. Mafia's roles are not their own, they in effect have their actions seized by the town as they do not have proper avenues in which to fakeclaim and therefore get away with not following the plans set in the thread, with enough investigatives/protectives that even if they rand the "best" ones, it is extremely risky and not likely to pay off for them to try to use their roles to neutralize threats to them. In this way, the roles do not benefit the mafia but they do benefit the town in being able to reduce the PoE with alignment cops, vigilantes, trackers, watchers, roleblockers, jailkeepers,etc. Town power roles that normally have to hide their roles until they have a good result/after they have acted(vig), lest they be killed off or role-blocked now have free reign to out themselves and their target without any sort of punishment, in fact if mafia do anything to try to counter them they will effectively out themselves as scum.

    Scum in this set-up are in a stranglehold, with little to no wiggle room for impressive play and have to pray that they rand vigilantes and alignment cops to have a fair chance, or any actual competent town will steamroll them. Town themselves also don't have much room for impressive play, they will massclaim and form a plan by which to reduce the PoE and you follow it or die. Only a vig hero shooting or an alignment cop checking a potential deepwolf have any room to wow people, which again overemphasizes those roles which cannot even be punished like normal in this set-up.



    3. The set-up isn't fun : If you told anyone in my community that you want them to play a role-madness game in which they had little to no control of their own role, that had lynches decide upon a mechanics based PoE, that had a mafia that couldn't fake their roles or actions,that had the same set of massclaimable roles every game, they'd tell you that you are a madman for thinking that anyone would want to play that and that that is role-madness.



    Solutions I went over numerous hotfixes for this set-up including banning claiming but showing flips but only one both probably works with modbot and doesn't run into the very problematic world of modkilling reps for subjective stuff like role-hinting. I've identified the main problems of this set-up as thus :

    1. There is no variation in the roles in this set-up.

    2. Players have little to no control over their roles actions.

    3. Mafia have little to no room to fake claim their roles.

    4. Town's strongest roles have free reign to reveal and use their powerful abilities without repercussions.

    5. All the modifiers that benefit the mafia are restricted to a handful of roles, which even further makes them outing to ever use for their intended purposes especially ninja which doesn't work properly with modbot.

    6. Town investigatives like role cop almost serve no purpose as everyone is going to massclaim and it is optimal play for mafia to not lie.



    My proposed solution is thus : add four to five more roles that can be randomized into the set-up, so that town doesn't know the full set-up each game and there is variation between games which is fun for both players and spectators. Inform the mafia of which roles did not get randomized into their game, to use as fake claims. Spread out the strongman and ninja modifiers among more roles so that mafia have a fair chance of actually randing them and so that town can't narrow down easily which roles the mafia has by them successfully using a strongman to kill a protected player. Fix the ninja to work as intended just to hide the factional kill if possible.

    Which five roles should be added is up for debate, the shortlist I came up with, which I don't know if all are supported by modbot because the MU role listings for that are outdated, are :


    Busdriver : n2 or n3 only, while some don't like this role it is a quintessential role for role-MADNESS, and it can be used skillfully as both alignments

    Bodyguard : If another protective role was to make it in, one that still dies during it is the least problematic. Some interesting WIFOM angles to be had if say a mafia bodyguard died protecting a town member.

    Bulletproof : Works as both giving mafia a counter to town vigs and as a target for mafia strongman kills.

    Masons : This one is less likely because they'd have to both rand into a set-up though rands are manually done as far as I know so any rand that just includes one mason would be redone/mason taken out and the remaining non-randed roles reranded to figure out the last role for that game. Would be interesting for the chance of town/mafia mason pair.

    Universal Back-up(or any back-up variation) : I doubt this one because of the workings with modbot but view this as both a fun and strategic addition to the line-up.

  32. ISO #82
    Soul Reader Soneji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#75)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#23)
    I think maybe the setup needs have an element sort of like this:

    For each powerful role that the town gets, certain modifiers are added to the mafia team. So maybe we rank Alignment Cops, Watchers and Vigilantes as powerful roles (we can address them as "A" roles or whatever). There are 6 of these. If town gets all 6 of them, all 4 mafia roles get a modifier. If town gets 4 or 5, 3 of the mafia get modifiers. Etc. Something like this.

    And I'd therefore remove the strongman modifiers from Role Cop and Voyeur.
    What do people think about this suggestion? It's been suggested that the setup is at least slightly town-sided. And there are some very pro town rands that makes it difficult for mafia to maneuver.
    This helps aleviate some of the problems. A n2 towm alignment cop could still claim their role and action while still having a fair chance of mafia not being able to block or kill them without having their kill stopped or identity outed but that could still be the case even with my suggestions. The mafia being unable to make power plays and not having room to lie in a game about deception are my biggest issues with this set-up and this at least tries to address the former of these two.

  33. ISO #83
    Soul Reader Buneary's Avatar
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    I'll elaborate later, but speaking as a former reviewer for ToSFM who oversaw a lot of role madness setups and other such games (again, another target for this setup, I think) I like several of soneji's points. I wouldn't go as far as to call the setup unfun -- I think it's more aptly described as "oppressive".

  34. ISO #84
    Wants It More FTFlush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soneji (#81)
    As the representative from one of the communities this is meant to appease : this set-up fails as being role-MADNESS, it fails as a balanced, skill driven set-up and above all it fails to be fun.


    1. Failure as role-madness : This set-up certainly has everyone having a role but it fails to fulfill the second part of that word, madness. As is, it is the furthest from madness, as there is no variation in what roles are in the game and the set-up invites the players to massclaim and fully control what all the roles in this set-up do in the most optimal, ordered manner. This is not what the vast majority of people want out of role-madness. Role-madness is supposed to still function like a standard game but spicier, with more random elements thrown in to spice up/speed up the game. It also appeals to puzzle solvers who like to piece together set-ups, who has what role and what the night actions could have been based on results given and who is trusted. Neither of these appealing factors are present in this set-up, all the actions are generally decided upon beforehand so there are few if any surprises in who targeted who and it's optimal for town to force a massclaim+have tight control over night actions so there is no pleasure of solving the puzzle, all the pieces are fully layed out in front of you already.


    2. Failure as a balanced, skill driven set-up : This set-up ranges from town-sided to extremely town-sided based on who rands the alignment cops and vigilantes, with little in the way of showing off skill with power roles given the open nature of everyone's roles and them being controlled for an optimal plan to reduce the PoE. Mafia's roles are not their own, they in effect have their actions seized by the town as they do not have proper avenues in which to fakeclaim and therefore get away with not following the plans set in the thread, with enough investigatives/protectives that even if they rand the "best" ones, it is extremely risky and not likely to pay off for them to try to use their roles to neutralize threats to them. In this way, the roles do not benefit the mafia but they do benefit the town in being able to reduce the PoE with alignment cops, vigilantes, trackers, watchers, roleblockers, jailkeepers,etc. Town power roles that normally have to hide their roles until they have a good result/after they have acted(vig), lest they be killed off or role-blocked now have free reign to out themselves and their target without any sort of punishment, in fact if mafia do anything to try to counter them they will effectively out themselves as scum.

    Scum in this set-up are in a stranglehold, with little to no wiggle room for impressive play and have to pray that they rand vigilantes and alignment cops to have a fair chance, or any actual competent town will steamroll them. Town themselves also don't have much room for impressive play, they will massclaim and form a plan by which to reduce the PoE and you follow it or die. Only a vig hero shooting or an alignment cop checking a potential deepwolf have any room to wow people, which again overemphasizes those roles which cannot even be punished like normal in this set-up.



    3. The set-up isn't fun : If you told anyone in my community that you want them to play a role-madness game in which they had little to no control of their own role, that had lynches decide upon a mechanics based PoE, that had a mafia that couldn't fake their roles or actions,that had the same set of massclaimable roles every game, they'd tell you that you are a madman for thinking that anyone would want to play that and that that is role-madness.



    Solutions I went over numerous hotfixes for this set-up including banning claiming but showing flips but only one both probably works with modbot and doesn't run into the very problematic world of modkilling reps for subjective stuff like role-hinting. I've identified the main problems of this set-up as thus :

    1. There is no variation in the roles in this set-up.

    2. Players have little to no control over their roles actions.

    3. Mafia have little to no room to fake claim their roles.

    4. Town's strongest roles have free reign to reveal and use their powerful abilities without repercussions.

    5. All the modifiers that benefit the mafia are restricted to a handful of roles, which even further makes them outing to ever use for their intended purposes especially ninja which doesn't work properly with modbot.

    6. Town investigatives like role cop almost serve no purpose as everyone is going to massclaim and it is optimal play for mafia to not lie.



    My proposed solution is thus : add four to five more roles that can be randomized into the set-up, so that town doesn't know the full set-up each game and there is variation between games which is fun for both players and spectators. Inform the mafia of which roles did not get randomized into their game, to use as fake claims. Spread out the strongman and ninja modifiers among more roles so that mafia have a fair chance of actually randing them and so that town can't narrow down easily which roles the mafia has by them successfully using a strongman to kill a protected player. Fix the ninja to work as intended just to hide the factional kill if possible.

    Which five roles should be added is up for debate, the shortlist I came up with, which I don't know if all are supported by modbot because the MU role listings for that are outdated, are :


    Busdriver : n2 or n3 only, while some don't like this role it is a quintessential role for role-MADNESS, and it can be used skillfully as both alignments

    Bodyguard : If another protective role was to make it in, one that still dies during it is the least problematic. Some interesting WIFOM angles to be had if say a mafia bodyguard died protecting a town member.

    Bulletproof : Works as both giving mafia a counter to town vigs and as a target for mafia strongman kills.

    Masons : This one is less likely because they'd have to both rand into a set-up though rands are manually done as far as I know so any rand that just includes one mason would be redone/mason taken out and the remaining non-randed roles reranded to figure out the last role for that game. Would be interesting for the chance of town/mafia mason pair.

    Universal Back-up(or any back-up variation) : I doubt this one because of the workings with modbot but view this as both a fun and strategic addition to the line-up.
    Agree with everything
    however I don't think adding more roles helps all that much
    While I do support that as an addendum to the setup because it makes massclaim less of an insta-win
    I think the mafia team need dedicated "outs" each night, since when town do come up with a mechanical plan, there's very little that the mafia can do about it

    I'd suggest just giving the mafia team dedicated modifiers (known or unknown)
    Mantichora mentioned a factional redirect, I'd suggest guaranteed factional strongman
    Because regardless of what roles get randed or not, the wolfteam will always have a lot of town pr to play around
    knowing the list of town prs just isn't enough

  35. ISO #85
    Wants It More FTFlush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buneary (#83)
    I'll elaborate later, but speaking as a former reviewer for ToSFM who oversaw a lot of role madness setups and other such games (again, another target for this setup, I think) I like several of soneji's points. I wouldn't go as far as to call the setup unfun -- I think it's more aptly described as "oppressive".
    Fun is subjective anyways
    but this setup definitely promotes some anti-fun gameplay
    Like it's astonishing how much work went into 2x5 to prevent prs from taking over the game
    and with this setup it's a complete 180

  36. ISO #86
    Wants It More FTFlush's Avatar
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    with that being said
    this setup has its fair share of nuance and intricacy, which surprised me
    So I just think that some of the be-all end-all prs need to be removed and replaced with roles that aren't instantaneously day-deciding
    +increasing the number of roles
    and giving mafia actual counter-play measures

  37. ISO #87
    Furry Collective Charter Member Ryast's Avatar
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    An idea I had is that maybe each role slot has two options with a similar but not the same purpose, to give mafia more chance to fakeclaim or mess with things? Like, instead of jailkeeper, you have jailkeeper/bus driver (still protective/manipulative) and you get one of the two randomly at the start of game

    Might be harder to balance, but makes for more “madness” and gives scum a bit more room to improvise.

  38. ISO #88
    Thread Analyst Sloonei's Avatar
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    Piggybacking off my name-twin Soneji, I think a good counter measure in any game that allows roleclaiming is to ensure that players do not/cannot know the full setup in advance. We had a role matrix in season 3, and other seasons as well I’m sure. Perhaps it would help remove some of the town-favorability if a couple other potential roles were added to the setup. A completely open setup with roleclaims is always an advantage for town. I take it we don’t want soup kills in this environment.

    I have not seen this setup in action yet, but I think it’s crucial to bear in mind how limited all of the roles are. While it’s conceivable for a town team to piece the game together entirely through role claims, I wouldn’t say that’s an automatic outcome. As such, the setup may not be as skewed in town’s favor as it first appears.

  39. ISO #89
    Soul Reader Buneary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTFlush (#86)
    with that being said
    this setup has its fair share of nuance and intricacy, which surprised me
    So I just think that some of the be-all end-all prs need to be removed and replaced with roles that aren't instantaneously day-deciding
    +increasing the number of roles
    and giving mafia actual counter-play measures
    As was discussed, I think the combination of watcher/voyuer/tracker coupled with JKer/RBer/Medic/JOATs leads to an extremely oppressive night kill environment, esp when coupled with potentially game ending PRs in vigi and alignment cop.

    The flaw in the setup is fundamental in that the entire role list used is anti wolf rather than individual portions of it being too townsided.

  40. ISO #90
    Furry Collective Charter Member Ryast's Avatar
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    Another idea (and this is more of a straight buff for wolves) would be to have wolves know the roles of the players they factional kill.

  41. ISO #91
    Soul Reader Soneji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryast (#90)
    Another idea (and this is more of a straight buff for wolves) would be to have wolves know the roles of the players they factional kill.
    If a town wouldn't have already chosen to massclaim d1, this change would cement them doing it and therefore this change wouldn't affect balance at all.

  42. ISO #92
    The idea of having 4 extra roles and letting scum fakeclaim from them is absolutely brilliant

    All the others I’ve seen suggested will have unintended consequences or will be ineffective FMPOV

    The biggest takeaway I have from this is to test a setup earlier than 2 weeks before champs starts lol

  43. ISO #93
    JAMES MCCLOWN Frog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#62)
    I think the balance is fine if everyone plays their roles correctly, or even close to it. But all three games have had at least one town player do something extremely bad which hurt their team a lot (though in the game last year they got lucky and the mistake ended up not mattering much). So part of me thinks the setup is fine. Part of me wonders if we need to account for bad play. I'd be fine with just leaving it alone. The town has gotten a tangible benefit from its roles in each game, or at least had a clear opportunity for it that was wasted by indefensible bad play.

    The Ninja is in there because you guys didn't want anyone to be 100% outed by a Watcher. Its effect on balance is small.

    The only potential Modbot issue is that I think most of us think that Ninja should only affect the nightkill and not the regular actions for the role.
    The setup is fine mate

    You mustn't stress

    Role madness is common across communities

    Bad play is also common across communities

    The current issue is 'mass claim for a free win', which is genuine, but hasn't affected the games I've seen

    When you introduced this I thought it was legit, I still do

    I hope all potential players comb through the setup now and go full setup information analysis

    GL GL Game 1

  44. ISO #94
    JAMES MCCLOWN Frog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkness (#92)
    The idea of having 4 extra roles and letting scum fakeclaim from them is absolutely brilliant

    All the others I’ve seen suggested will have unintended consequences or will be ineffective FMPOV

    The biggest takeaway I have from this is to test a setup earlier than 2 weeks before champs starts lol
    I've seen this setup at least 3x

    It'd be worth it to link historical games in the first post 100 [brofist]

  45. ISO #95
    Soul Reader Soneji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frog (#94)
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkness (#92)
    The idea of having 4 extra roles and letting scum fakeclaim from them is absolutely brilliant

    All the others I’ve seen suggested will have unintended consequences or will be ineffective FMPOV

    The biggest takeaway I have from this is to test a setup earlier than 2 weeks before champs starts lol
    I've seen this setup at least 3x

    It'd be worth it to link historical games in the first post 100 [brofist]
    I think 36/12 exposed it's flaws bettet, 12/12 is faster paced so people just played more standard with reads and didn't dive as quickly into the mechanics side of things. You can play a game in this set-up that is fun but not likely to be due to the set-up being fun.

  46. ISO #96
    As a casual observer, I feel like the mass-claiming is the biggest flaw of this set-up. If you can't counter the damage it does to fakeclaiming as a strategy/defense, then you have to counter the mass-claiming all together. Some games it won't matter. Other ones, like this kinda did, will be dominated by the mechanics.

  47. ISO #97
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#66)
    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 (#64)
    fwiw i have a vague feeling there might be semi-breaking strategies where the mechanics can be pushed in ways that advantage town, but I'm not really sure what they might be (block/vig the wolfy players and the anti-town villagers, protect/watch the people who are both villagery and useful, is obvious as a strategy, but it might be possible to farm early claiming data in protown ways that are nonobvious)

    it MIGHT be useful to run one of the test setups given a d1 massclaim (where everyone just agrees to do that as part of the game, pre-rand) and see if anything powerfully protown comes out of it

    beyond that, i'd tend to agree that we're looking at the sort of setup that has a strong tendency to snowball towards whoever is winning early, since many of the roles in the game (rb, jk, tracker) become massively stronger as the # of wolves decrease. Not sure there's really any way around that, it's simply in the nature of any role madness setup.
    me and soah played out this scenario, and we couldn't find any way to break the setup
    what did you try?

    An optimal solution exists, it's just a matter of finding it.

    Think of tic-tac-toe. It's reached a state where who is randomly assigned to play as X and who is randomly assigned to play as O is unimportant. They both know their optimal moves, they have no agency.


    It's also the same premise as organising ITAs during a mash. The best play is to strip all decisions from the players, direct their shots and guarantee that you "control" the wolves actions. Deviations from the plan are punished.

  48. ISO #98
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    There are three problems with that. The first problem is that you usually can't determine who deviated from the plan. If someone claims to have been roleblocked, then the town knows that either they are lying or they were targeted by the roleblocker or the jailkeeper or one of the two JOATs -- so all they learn is that one of five players is a wolf. If someone dies who was supposed to have been protected, then it's possible the protective role failed to act or someone blocked the protective role or a strongman kill was used -- that means there's potentially seven different players who could be responsible. The second problem is that if a wolf is pretty sure they are going to die soon anyway then they have no incentive to follow the plan, and a mass claim enables them to do maximum damage with their night action. The third problem is that the number of roles the town needs to protect is much larger than the number of protective roles they have. If they assign everybody's action and require that the plan be followed, then the wolves have a free kill on the most important role that's left unprotected. And due to problem number one, you need to stack a lot of redundant power on any player that you absolutely want to be sure survives the night, leaving even more players unprotected.

  49. ISO #99
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#98)
    If someone claims to have been roleblocked, then the town knows that either they are lying or they were targeted by the roleblocker or the jailkeeper or one of the two JOATs
    you understand we know who is getting roleblocked right?

    The optimal solution would account for all of that in a way that FORCES wolves to waste their action or out themselves or at least narrow them down

    Besides, if someone gets Rolebocked when they aren't supposed to, you now know at least one wolf is a RBer.
    Last edited by Apoc; April 27th, 2019 at 02:13 PM.

  50. ISO #100
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    So...


    What did you try?
    Last edited by Apoc; April 27th, 2019 at 02:15 PM.

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