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Thread: Season 6 Setup: Mad17

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    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Season 6 Setup: Mad17

    Season 6 Setup: Mad17 (created by soah)

    ROLES
    13x Town
    4x Mafia


    Of the following 18 roles, 1 will randomly be discarded and the other 17 will be assigned at random to one player in the game without regard for the player's alignment. Each role is restricted to using its action only on the nights listed on the chart. The Mafia will be told which role is not present in the game.

    Role Acts On These Nights Modifier
    Watcher n1 Only Macho
    Watcher n2 Only
    Alignment Cop n2 Only 1x Ninja
    Alignment Cop n3 Only 1x Ninja
    Vigilante n2 Only
    Vigilante n3 Only
    Doctor n1, n3
    Doctor n2, n4
    Tracker n1, n3 1x Strongman
    Tracker n2, n4 1x Strongman
    Jailkeeper n1, n3
    Jailkeeper n2, n4
    Roleblocker n1, n3
    Roleblocker n2, n4
    Role Cop n1, n2, n3 1x Strongman
    Jack of All Trades
    (Role Cop, Tracker, Roleblocker)
    n1, n2, n3
    Jack of All Trades
    (Doctor, Jailkeeper, Voyeur)
    n1, n2, n3
    Voyeur n1, n2, n3, n4 1x Strongman


    Watcher: Learns who visited the target, but not what actions they did

    Alignment Cop: Learns whether the target is town or mafia, but not their role

    Vigilante: Kills the target

    Doctor: Protects the target from kills on that night only (cannot self-protect)

    Tracker: Learns who the target visited, but not what actions they did

    Roleblocker: Prevents the target from using their action on that night only

    Jailkeeper: Performs both a Doctor and Roleblocker action on the target, both protecting and blocking them (cannot self-protect)

    Role Cop: Learns the role of the target, but not whether they are town or mafia

    Jack of All Trades: Can use one of their abilities per night without repeats

    Voyeur: Learns what type of actions were performed on the target, but not who did them

    Macho: The player cannot be protected from kills

    Strongman: Kills performed with Strongman cannot be stopped in any way (serves no purpose if the player is town)

    Ninja: Night actions performed on the night that Ninja is used are invisible to investigative roles (Trackers, Watchers, and Voyeurs)

    MECHANICS
    • Role reveals at death are alignment only. You will not learn a player's exact role when they die.
    • Usage of night actions is optional, but unused actions will be lost.
    • Mafia factional kills are optional. Mafia may submit a factional kill each night, but are not required to. However, starting night 5, the factional kill will be mandatory.
    • Mafia factional kills are assigned. They can be tracked, watched, or roleblocked.
    • Mafia share a factional Night Kill, which is a single standard shot for their faction.
    • Mafia members may perform the faction kill in addition to their regular action at the same time.

    FAQ
    Please note that Mafia Host - the Modbot - will post a FAQ as well that might contain answers to some questions that aren't covered here.

    Q: What changes to the setup have been made since the practice games?

    A: The Roleblocker role has been split into two roles, creating 18 total. One role will randomly be excluded from the setup, and the Mafia will be told which one it is. Also, both Tracker roles have gained Strongman modifiers.


    Q: What does Cycle mean?

    A: Cycle is Modbot terminology for the night(s) on which a role can act. This is an example of how some roles might appear in Role PMs and Role Cop investigations:

    Jack of All Trades (x1 Doctor, x1 Jailkeeper, x1 Voyeur) | Cycle 1, 2, 3
    Doctor | Cycle 2, 4
    Alignment Cop | x1 Ninja | Cycle 2
    Macho Watcher | Cycle 1


    Q: What do the Voyeur results look like?

    A: The Voyeur sees the type of action performed on the target, but not the exact action. Modbot groups the actions into four categories: Protection (Doctor), Manipulative (Roleblocker, Jailkeeper), Killing (Vigilante, Mafia Faction Kill), and Investigative (all others). The Voyeur does not see their own action in their results. This is a sample results PM: "theknightsofneeee had Manipulative, Investigative, Killing done to them."


    Q: What is the order of operations? What happens if a roleblocker targets a roleblocker?

    A: The automated post at the start of each game contains a FAQ (in a spoiler tag) which answers these questions and more. However, there is one important clarification: the order of operations lists Strongman Kills first because they are immune to blocks, and regular kills are listed ahead of investigative actions because investigative roles can witness killing actions, but this only means that the target is marked for death before other actions are processed. No deaths actually occur until after all actions have been processed. In other words, dying at night never stops a player's action from happening.

    The other important pieces of information are that Roleblockers act before Jailkeepers and that those roles are capable of blocking another player who attempts to use the same action. For more detailed information, please consult the aforementioned FAQ.

    Q: Can Mafia players target their teammates with night actions?

    A: Yes. The Mafia's faction kill cannot be used on a member of their own team, but all other actions (including Vigilante kills) may be used on members of their own team.


    Q: Can Doctors and Jailkeepers self-target in order to protect themselves?

    A: No.

    Q: Which roles can self-target?

    A: Only Watchers.


    Q: Are the Strongman and Ninja actions limited only to the nights listed on the chart?

    A: No. If a player is Mafia, they may use their Strongman or Ninja ability on any night.


    Q: Can players be investigated while they are jailkept?

    A: Yes. Jailkeep is a combination of roleblock and doctor, neither of which prevent investigations on the target.


    Role PMs
    Please go to this page to find the exact wording of the Role PMs: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...oles-Modifiers
    Last edited by Thingyman; May 4th, 2019 at 10:23 AM.

  2. ISO #2
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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  3. ISO #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#8)
    Quote Originally Posted by EvanManManMan (#7)
    Is it too late to change the setup?
    Please give your thoughts on the setup here: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...-6-Setup-Mad17

    The hope is that at least the core concept will be used, but we can definitely still make tweaks. If we find that it can't work - even with tweaks - then we'll change it. We're having the test games to make sure the setup is viable.
    The concept is the main issue imo

    You get a fair share of "asking for another day" based on when actions can be used and way too many free passes given out for roles existing. Claims should not have a very big impact on thr game and a setup like this blatantly encourages it

    V++ setups fix this problem for sure

    The entire role madness concept should be scrapped for a v++ setup

  4. ISO #4
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    @EvanManManMan I moved your post to this thread, as it shouldn't be in the general discussion thread.

  5. ISO #5
    Turbo Mafia Champion! Animal Midwife's Avatar Game Manager
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    I'd prefer a more basic setup because, for a large portion of the game, it seemed people were talking more about potential mechanics than how on thread actions were wolfy/towny.

  6. ISO #6
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    To guide the feedback:

    We prefer a role madness setup. So this thread shouldn't be about the pros and cons of a role madness setup in general. We've had 5 seasons without a role madness setup, and a lot of communities are used to role madness setups, so it's about time they get a chance to play in a game environment that they're comfortable with.

    The only reason we would go away from the setup, thus, is not that it's "role madness" and it "puts too much emphasis on claims and mechanics over actual post content", but would be if it is just unbalanced and not feasible, in which case plan B is to probably do a revamped version of 2x5.
    Last edited by Thingyman; March 30th, 2019 at 03:26 PM.

  7. ISO #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#6)
    To guide the feedback:

    We prefer a role madness setup. So this thread shouldn't be about the pros and cons of a role madness setup in general. We've had 5 seasons without a role madness setup, and a lot of communities are used to role madness setups, so it's about time they get a chance to play in a game environment that they're comfortable with.

    The only reason we would go away from the setup, thus, is not that it's "role madness" and it "puts too much emphasis on claims and mechanics over actual post content", but would be if it is just unbalanced and not feasible, in which case plan B is to probably do a revamped version of 2x5.
    I felt that there was more mechanical discussion than legitimate reads being made in the test game

    Maybe not more but a noticable amount, and if it's that noticable then it's too prominent

  8. ISO #8
    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
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    I think what Thingy is saying is that a setup where there's more mechanical discussion than reads is actually not a problem. Half the communities invited play role madness games, a large amount of them literally don't even discuss things day 1, they just wait for claims. Whether or not that kind of play should be catered to in a competitive event is up for debate, but the choice to encourage that was already made.

  9. ISO #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#8)
    I think what Thingy is saying is that a setup where there's more mechanical discussion than reads is actually not a problem. Half the communities invited play role madness games, a large amount of them literally don't even discuss things day 1, they just wait for claims. Whether or not that kind of play should be catered to in a competitive event is up for debate, but the choice to encourage that was already made.
    That's hardly even "play"

    Let alone competitive

    To me that sounds like sitting around and letting other factors do the work for you instead of taking initiative to do things yourself

  10. ISO #10
    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
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    That's how a lot of communities play mafia. The number of people who come into games and say "wow, in my community people only post 10 times each on day 1 and we wait for power roles to tell us what to do day 2!" is notable

  11. ISO #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#10)
    That's how a lot of communities play mafia. The number of people who come into games and say "wow, in my community people only post 10 times each on day 1 and we wait for power roles to tell us what to do day 2!" is notable
    I mean either way they're going to need to play out a normal day one

    What difference does it make if they roll vanilla town or a guaranteed power role if they can't apply their normal meta regardless

  12. ISO #12
    Loansharking blot test Newcomb's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#10)
    That's how a lot of communities play mafia. The number of people who come into games and say "wow, in my community people only post 10 times each on day 1 and we wait for power roles to tell us what to do day 2!" is notable
    I think what Evan’s saying is that there’s a point at which you’re not playing mafia anymore. You can call it mafia, but if the social deduction / analysis parts are missing or completely anemic, it’s not actually the same game.

  13. ISO #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#12)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#10)
    That's how a lot of communities play mafia. The number of people who come into games and say "wow, in my community people only post 10 times each on day 1 and we wait for power roles to tell us what to do day 2!" is notable
    I think what Evan’s saying is that there’s a point at which you’re not playing mafia anymore. You can call it mafia, but if the social deduction / analysis parts are missing or completely anemic, it’s not actually the same game.
    Even if this setup was solely doing mechanical play, that would be considered mafia to a large number of mafia communities. (I think Soah's setup is a perfect mix of both, though).

  14. ISO #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#12)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#10)
    That's how a lot of communities play mafia. The number of people who come into games and say "wow, in my community people only post 10 times each on day 1 and we wait for power roles to tell us what to do day 2!" is notable
    I think what Evan’s saying is that there’s a point at which you’re not playing mafia anymore. You can call it mafia, but if the social deduction / analysis parts are missing or completely anemic, it’s not actually the same game.
    I think that the setup in and of it self disincentivizes people from just letting claims live just cause 'lolclaims', since everyone has a role, is enough to encourage the village to just play the game as intended and lynch the wolfy people regardless of claims.

    And if villages want to play the game poorly and 'lynch outside the claims' they can get punished for it, which i think is good.

    But it also helps with the problem where people can advance just because they randed a PR and used it (which seems pretty common).


  15. ISO #15
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    fwiw I think that with this setup, basically every role is relatively weak on its own, and it's much more liek "ok everyone has something they can do at night" as opposed to "we MUST protect role x from claiming" etc

    I think it's reasonably safe to say that this setup is not blatantly and easily breakable for easy town wins
    I'm not sure we can yet say if it's wolfsided or not (2 games isn't much of a sample size, town play was overall poor in the game just finished [can't speak for first game or one to come]), but it may be that we might want to make some small tweaks in balance to help town somehow (for instance, converting some blocking power into invesetigative power or the like, making it 14/4 instead of 13/4, etc)
    Last edited by mhsmith0; March 30th, 2019 at 04:30 PM.

  16. ISO #16
    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#12)
    I think what Evan’s saying is that there’s a point at which you’re not playing mafia anymore. You can call it mafia, but if the social deduction / analysis parts are missing or completely anemic, it’s not actually the same game.
    And I'm saying that that's not the debate Thingy wants. He has already decided that that definition of mafia is okay for this season. (Or, more than okay, intended) I don't think that's mafia either, I agree with you and Evan, but a large number of communities do call that mafia, and they are the ones being catered to this time around.

    Either way I don't really think the test game was about roles that much anyway, they hardly did anything and the lynches were decided by player behaviour (days 1 and 2), lynching an inactive day 3, and then based on town tunneling a pro player after that. The wolf MVP did get into the towncore partially because they talked about their voyeur actions a lot though, and the crucial mislynch came on a townie mostly because they made bad night action choices.

  17. ISO #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkness (#13)
    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#12)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#10)
    That's how a lot of communities play mafia. The number of people who come into games and say "wow, in my community people only post 10 times each on day 1 and we wait for power roles to tell us what to do day 2!" is notable
    I think what Evan’s saying is that there’s a point at which you’re not playing mafia anymore. You can call it mafia, but if the social deduction / analysis parts are missing or completely anemic, it’s not actually the same game.
    Even if this setup was solely doing mechanical play, that would be considered mafia to a large number of mafia communities. (I think Soah's setup is a perfect mix of both, though).
    There is a difference between something being considered mafia and being considered competitive mafia

    And that is certainly not competitive, which as one of the aims of champs

  18. ISO #18
    Quote Originally Posted by EvanManManMan (#17)
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkness (#13)
    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#12)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#10)
    That's how a lot of communities play mafia. The number of people who come into games and say "wow, in my community people only post 10 times each on day 1 and we wait for power roles to tell us what to do day 2!" is notable
    I think what Evan’s saying is that there’s a point at which you’re not playing mafia anymore. You can call it mafia, but if the social deduction / analysis parts are missing or completely anemic, it’s not actually the same game.
    Even if this setup was solely doing mechanical play, that would be considered mafia to a large number of mafia communities. (I think Soah's setup is a perfect mix of both, though).
    There is a difference between something being considered mafia and being considered competitive mafia

    And that is certainly not competitive, which as one of the aims of champs
    Yeah, a lot of communities would be also consider a game based mostly on mechanics to be competetive mafia. A majority of them, even. Regardless, I don't think that Soah's setup is primarily mechanic based. It obviously involves more role logic than previous setups, but it's not like you don't have to fool people/find wolves. The setup is designed in such a way to prevent the game being able to be solved based on claiming alone.

  19. ISO #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#16)
    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#12)
    I think what Evan’s saying is that there’s a point at which you’re not playing mafia anymore. You can call it mafia, but if the social deduction / analysis parts are missing or completely anemic, it’s not actually the same game.
    And I'm saying that that's not the debate Thingy wants. He has already decided that that definition of mafia is okay for this season. (Or, more than okay, intended) I don't think that's mafia either, I agree with you and Evan, but a large number of communities do call that mafia, and they are the ones being catered to this time around.

    Either way I don't really think the test game was about roles that much anyway, they hardly did anything and the lynches were decided by player behaviour (days 1 and 2), lynching an inactive day 3, and then based on town tunneling a pro player after that. The wolf MVP did get into the towncore partially because they talked about their voyeur actions a lot though, and the crucial mislynch came on a townie mostly because they made bad night action choices.
    I believe that Michelle (a wolf) dodged the day 3 lynch as a result of their claim

    Correct me if I'm wrong and like maybe ladd did something

  20. ISO #20
    The One True Hero soah's Avatar
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    Michelle dodged a lynch because some people thought that there was something villagery about the way that she claimed her role.

  21. ISO #21
    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
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    Yes. I didn't care what the claim was, I cared about how she claimed it. She mentioned it in the middle of a giant ISO of soah as an afterthought, and it didn't feel like the way a wolf would try to claim. I thought a wolf would be more likely to just outright state their claim. We only had half an hour or so to weigh this and it made me not able to pull the trigger.

    That's the intended effect of the setup - it's not the roles that matter, it's how those roles give the players things to react to and discuss.

  22. ISO #22
    Soul Reader Angrypotato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#10)
    That's how a lot of communities play mafia. The number of people who come into games and say "wow, in my community people only post 10 times each on day 1 and we wait for power roles to tell us what to do day 2!" is notable
    @Dels You have just described my homesite in that post.

  23. ISO #23
    Soul Reader Angrypotato's Avatar
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    Also Role Cops are completely useless for towns in this situation. We need to have roles that are beneficial to either side that have Rande it

  24. ISO #24
    GOAT Tier Slaan's Avatar
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    Im a bit confused because the message I got to post on my community had also this important bit:

    - Each individual player may make a maximum of 200 posts per day phase (this restriction is lifted 2 hours before day end).
    But I dont see it here? As a notorious spammer I do hope the 200 post limit is part of it even tho I duno if I could play if I wanted

    In other news, click this and have a nice day!

    https://twitter.com/natureslover_s/s...72139493183488

  25. ISO #25
    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaan (#24)
    Im a bit confused because the message I got to post on my community had also this important bit:

    - Each individual player may make a maximum of 200 posts per day phase (this restriction is lifted 2 hours before day end).
    But I dont see it here? As a notorious spammer I do hope the 200 post limit is part of it even tho I duno if I could play if I wanted

    In other news, click this and have a nice day!

    https://twitter.com/natureslover_s/s...72139493183488
    This thread is just about the setup. The other details are in the main season thread, including the post limit.

  26. ISO #26
    GOAT Tier Slaan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#25)
    Quote Originally Posted by Slaan (#24)
    Im a bit confused because the message I got to post on my community had also this important bit:

    - Each individual player may make a maximum of 200 posts per day phase (this restriction is lifted 2 hours before day end).
    But I dont see it here? As a notorious spammer I do hope the 200 post limit is part of it even tho I duno if I could play if I wanted

    In other news, click this and have a nice day!

    https://twitter.com/natureslover_s/s...72139493183488
    This thread is just about the setup. The other details are in the main season thread, including the post limit.

  27. ISO #27
    Soul Reader OrangeP47's Avatar
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    I think the setup is a fine choice, and more towards what my home community plays than previous seasons we struggled with (though not necessarily for that reason). Given the limited days actions are available to everyone it's kind of a compromise position really, which is also fine. No one might be 100% happy but we can meet in the middle.

    I can see the concern about Role Cop not being the most useful in this case, but I think if played correctly some utility could be garnered from it. There's only one, plus what I assume is a one shot ability on a JOAT, so it's not overdone. That said, I'm not overly attached to it or anything.

  28. ISO #28
    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angrypotato (#23)
    Also Role Cops are completely useless for towns in this situation. We need to have roles that are beneficial to either side that have Rande it
    yes, the setup needs town to have a guaranteed alignment cop and a guaranteed backup alignment cop or you will see only mafia win these games 80% of the time

  29. ISO #29
    Soul Reader AndrewGreve's Avatar
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    Thingyman,

    Not sure of your opinion of boardgamegeeks over all skill level, but I played a few games over there. This type of set up is the bread and butter for the more accomplished players over there. I think if there is a group of players best suited to determine if a no reveal set up or madness+no reveal is breakable or unplayable, they would be the group.

    Its interesting to hear the complaints here about how other communities rely on mechanics and PR's to play the game for them, instead of making reads etc. I read similar discussions on BGG about valuing peeks or PR's to much and about alignment/role reveal on death as to easy or not true WW. So at the very least you will be able to ask a community that focuses on social deduction / analysis parts but has a large experience pool in this type of set up.

  30. ISO #30
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewGreve (#29)
    Thingyman,

    Not sure of your opinion of boardgamegeeks over all skill level, but I played a few games over there. This type of set up is the bread and butter for the more accomplished players over there. I think if there is a group of players best suited to determine if a no reveal set up or madness+no reveal is breakable or unplayable, they would be the group.

    Its interesting to hear the complaints here about how other communities rely on mechanics and PR's to play the game for them, instead of making reads etc. I read similar discussions on BGG about valuing peeks or PR's to much and about alignment/role reveal on death as to easy or not true WW. So at the very least you will be able to ask a community that focuses on social deduction / analysis parts but has a large experience pool in this type of set up.
    I have a high opinion of BoardGameGeek's skill level, and this is a very good suggestion, thanks!

  31. ISO #31
    Soul Reader Soneji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angrypotato (#23)
    Also Role Cops are completely useless for towns in this situation. We need to have roles that are beneficial to either side that have Rande it
    There is a single full role cop in the set-up compared to two alignment cops, with alignment cops actually being useless to mafia and that they only benefit from randing by town not having it. Role cops are still useful for town as they can be used to verify claims and have an idea of which roles are left in the game.

  32. ISO #32
    Everyone's mom dyachei's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    I feel like this game isn't that balanced. I'll have more thoughts on this later though

  33. ISO #33
    Furry Collective Charter Member Ryast's Avatar
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    If doctor saves someone, so they/the target get any feedback? Also, same question for jailkeeper.

  34. ISO #34
    Furry Collective Charter Member Ryast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryast (#33)
    If doctor saves someone, so they/the target get any feedback? Also, same question for jailkeeper.
    *do

  35. ISO #35
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryast (#33)
    If doctor saves someone, so they/the target get any feedback? Also, same question for jailkeeper.
    they do not

  36. ISO #36
    Furry Collective Charter Member Ryast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#35)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryast (#33)
    If doctor saves someone, so they/the target get any feedback? Also, same question for jailkeeper.
    they do not
    Thanks

  37. ISO #37
    Wants It More LanMisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#28)
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrypotato (#23)
    Also Role Cops are completely useless for towns in this situation. We need to have roles that are beneficial to either side that have Rande it
    yes, the setup needs town to have a guaranteed alignment cop and a guaranteed backup alignment cop or you will see only mafia win these games 80% of the time
    I think that you might want to check the currently running test game, in case this wasn't an ironic statement.
    Last edited by SmartBomb; April 2nd, 2019 at 08:08 PM.

  38. ISO #38
    Thread Analyst icmnfrsh's Avatar
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    Interesting. In the communities I play in (Ultimate Mafia and the Sims forum), most hosts opt to settle ties by lynching the player who's held that amount of votes the longest. Although we discovered one time that even this definition is ambiguous (is it the player who reached that number of votes first, or the player who got their first vote earlier?) I've only known one host who randomized ties.

    In any case, this should be interesting. I'm sure in a setup this big, this would discourage leaving ties near the end of day

  39. ISO #39
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by icmnfrsh (#37)
    Interesting. In the communities I play in (Ultimate Mafia and the Sims forum), most hosts opt to settle ties by lynching the player who's held that amount of votes the longest. Although we discovered one time that even this definition is ambiguous (is it the player who reached that number of votes first, or the player who got their first vote earlier?) I've only known one host who randomized ties.

    In any case, this should be interesting. I'm sure in a setup this big, this would discourage leaving ties near the end of day
    On some communities, ties also lead to no one at all getting lynched.

  40. ISO #40
    GOAT Tier SwedishSkumbag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theknightsofneeee (#14)
    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#12)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#10)
    That's how a lot of communities play mafia. The number of people who come into games and say "wow, in my community people only post 10 times each on day 1 and we wait for power roles to tell us what to do day 2!" is notable
    I think what Evan’s saying is that there’s a point at which you’re not playing mafia anymore. You can call it mafia, but if the social deduction / analysis parts are missing or completely anemic, it’s not actually the same game.
    I think that the setup in and of it self disincentivizes people from just letting claims live just cause 'lolclaims', since everyone has a role, is enough to encourage the village to just play the game as intended and lynch the wolfy people regardless of claims.

    And if villages want to play the game poorly and 'lynch outside the claims' they can get punished for it, which i think is good.

    But it also helps with the problem where people can advance just because they randed a PR and used it (which seems pretty common).

    +1

  41. ISO #41
    Thread Analyst Sloonei's Avatar
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    Will the game thread be locked at night?

  42. ISO #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Sloonei (#40)
    Will the game thread be locked at night?
    Yes

  43. ISO #43
    Thread Analyst icmnfrsh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#38)
    Quote Originally Posted by icmnfrsh (#37)
    Interesting. In the communities I play in (Ultimate Mafia and the Sims forum), most hosts opt to settle ties by lynching the player who's held that amount of votes the longest. Although we discovered one time that even this definition is ambiguous (is it the player who reached that number of votes first, or the player who got their first vote earlier?) I've only known one host who randomized ties.

    In any case, this should be interesting. I'm sure in a setup this big, this would discourage leaving ties near the end of day
    On some communities, ties also lead to no one at all getting lynched.
    Ooh. That, I've never seen before. Voting tends to be lukewarm in those forums, so we tend to just lynch someone as long as there are votes and no lynch isn't the majority

    No lynching has also fallen out of favor recently in the Sims forum. Which I think is for the best, because no lynching on day 1 doesn't really give you much information on people's behavior that day

  44. ISO #44
    GOAT Tier JohnCarter's Avatar
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    This setup hasn’t resulted in any town wins yet?

  45. ISO #45
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Thoughts on balance?

    soah mentioned that it might be necessary to tweak it to make it more town-favored.

    Concrete suggestions on how to change the setup?

    And then we need a couple of test games going again.

  46. ISO #46
    Now I have played the setup once as a wolf and spectated a second game which is not really a big sample size but it helped me get an hang of how the setup works at least a little bit. Some observations:

    - both games were influenced by some villa PRs making suboptimal actions (or in the second case forgetting to send an action) which helped the wolves by avoiding the death of one wolf from the villa vig in the first game and "clearing" a wolf in the second game. I think both were kinda exceptional cases, especially the second one, but still it shows how a single villager using badly his night actions can influence stuff very heavily.

    - Following from above, this is a setup that imo rewards good play and penalizes bad play quite a bit, which is perfectly fine but can have a snowbally effect. E.g. lynching a wolf early, not only means wolves have one less night action, it also means that all roles that can stop/track a kill (trackers/jkers/rbers, there is a lot of these roles in the setup) are more likely to get useful info and lynching a wolf means not lynching a villager which means villager has one more pr action compared to if they had mislynched (this is what happened in the second game). Viceversa, if you keep mislynch this has the potential to turn into a 13 vs 4 mountainous essentially where your PRs get little to no info (what happened in the first game).

    - no role flip means wolves always have to account for every villa role being alive each night, which again is perfectly fine but it is a bit of a pain in the ass for wolves

    - Sub rules need to be very strict as everyone has a night action so people not submitting can be very damaging. I am not talking much about the slots who 0 posts or close to it, I assume those will be replaced so no problem there; I am talking more about those lots that kinda just float by. It also needs to be made very clear how to use your action in an automated games in the OP.

    - the combination of possible rands make it very hard to evaluate fully (ldo), but I assume soah run the numbers better than I could so not even gonna bother trying to see what setups could be problematic

    Overall the setup is a little bit townsided with a good/average village imo but in champs I expect wolves to win more in qualifiers anyway. wildcard/finale i think it's gonna be a bit rough for wolves but it's def playable and more importantly it's a fun setup.

    It's also very hard to design a balanced open role madness setup so again, i think this is is fine. I had proposed a couple of tweaks in one of the DVCs but i actually think it may be just fine like this.

    My 2 cents

  47. ISO #47
    Oh and remember to add the effect of the ninja modifier to the OP.

  48. ISO #48
    Cheers, bbt! The Lukundo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#44)


    Thoughts on balance?

    soah mentioned that it might be necessary to tweak it to make it more town-favored.

    Concrete suggestions on how to change the setup?

    And then we need a couple of test games going again.
    I don’t feel it’s unbalanced. I think in the game I was in with Mad17 was more an unbalanced playerlist.

  49. ISO #49
    Cheers, bbt! The Lukundo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Lukundo (#47)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#44)


    Thoughts on balance?

    soah mentioned that it might be necessary to tweak it to make it more town-favored.

    Concrete suggestions on how to change the setup?

    And then we need a couple of test games going again.
    I don’t feel it’s unbalanced. I think in the game I was in with Mad17 was more an unbalanced playerlist.
    Like what ladd said about bad plays being penalised

  50. ISO #50
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    It would be a disaster for the mafia to win all games. I need someone to reassure me that this won't happen, if we're going with this setup :P

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