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Thread: Season 6, Game 4: Phineas and Ferb [The Mafia Championship]

  1. ISO #1601
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    Quote Originally Posted by notquitethere (#1599)
    That's great stuff @Askthepizzaguy (especially the compliments). You're right that in the beginning I townhunt more than scumhunt. That'll change as the day goes on and we get more info from flips. I don't know why some of my posts ended up broken- but after it was first pointed out I've made more effort to carefully preview what I'm saying. Regarding Phaze: you're right that the second vote was Mendel's vote I had quoted but accidentally deleted a bracket, messing up the whole thing. Fortunately, it turned out OK in the vote count (perhaps through mod-intervention).

    I'm interested what put Definition in the not-scummy pile for you? I'm aware (painfully after Carotte) that I am in danger of suspecting town players who merely fail to conform to a standard of town play I have internalised.
    Not scummy is specifically that I cant find a wolfy mindset behind his posts, but I also dont have any strong reason to think he is town.

    I think he is a player that I will only be able to solve based on how he votes, if what he gave us on D1 is standard for him.

    But I also don't really read an agenda in what he is doing. I can't clear him but people are town by default unless there's something you can show me that says agenda.

    I just cant see for sure that he is town either, or close to it.

  2. ISO #1602
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    I know people hate this but I don't see anyone else really looking at analyzing the Phaze and Pizza vote moves beyond the surface of oh, they look wolfy.

    I would like to post some analysis for your consideration. It involves me. Forgive me if it sounds pretentious or self centered, but it is an important matter that has to be considered by the town.

  3. ISO #1603
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1601)
    But I also don't really read an agenda in what he is doing. I can't clear him but people are town by default unless there's something you can show me that says agenda.

    I just cant see for sure that he is town either, or close to it.
    OK I can get that perspective.

    You said that you were going to explain the subtle difference between you not voting as scum and you not voting as town. If you haven't already, I'm all ears.

  4. ISO #1604
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    This I wrote as part of my intended apologies to Carotte and her community, in addition to the full explanation about my vote on her.

    I then pivoted to trying to get back to something productive, the vote analysis.

    I have the benefit of knowing for sure one of us is a villager. So it was maybe easier for me to see this.

    Quote:

    As you all saw, at the end of the day, Phaze shifted his vote as well. I didn't see it as I was also shifting my vote at the same time.

    I need you to world-build with me. These are hypothetical worlds:

    In the event sKeith is a wolf, it should be noted that both Phaze and me shifted votes at the last possible minute, together. Phaze did have time to call for a vote count afterward so I would expect there was maybe 10 seconds left in the round by the time we both switched vote. The count came immediately after as I recall.

    That (timing) is a double-question-mark mistake on my part. I switched too late which doesn't give Carotte the chance to follow the publicly stated plan to claim in time. I don't need to imagine what it does for your thoughts on my own alignment. If I was going to do that I needed to decide sooner, but it all happened right at the end of the round, and I was considering a lot of worlds.

    To my point:

    If sKeith flips scum, it should be reasonable for the rest of you to conclude that both Phaze and myself cannot be wolves together. My own vote change was worth 2 votes, because I was on the other wagon. Phaze's vote shift was not needed.

    Note also the overall thread feeling about sKeith: a lot of people I am reading as town or solidly town, and many who are more or less consensus town, have sKeith as someone who needs to be lynched.

    It is a poor strategy to use two wolves to save one which is already pretty much always dying, and in so doing make certain that both Phaze and myself are huge suspects going forward for no reason.

    As much of a blunder as I feel my vote switch from sKeith to Carotte was, it would be ten times such a blunder to save sKeith using both myself and Phaze. There is no reason to connect us by simulvoting at 11:00 (my time), and it would be costly because no one thinks that me and Phaze and sKeith all form a team, so far as I remember. It is absurdly bad wolfing. You should be able to conclude that the most reasonable explanation in any sKeith!wolf universe is that only one of Phaze and myself at maximum can be a wolf in this specific situation.

    Furthermore, if sKeith is a villager,
    you could conclude much the same thing: I had gotten votes, but there was never any real consensus I was scum. In lynching Carotte with a last second vote switch, now, I often do eat a lynch at some point in the game. Maybe immediately.

    If sKeith is a villager as well as Carotte, and I am a wolf, I know all of that before I place such a vote at the last minute. I would have already had two townies queued up and my entire team safe in such a universe. It's incredibly ill-advised and not needed. There is no reason to suddenly increase my wolf equity and also go against my own stated progression as wildly (and indefensibly) as I detailed above, with sKeith ---> Carotte.

    In order to believe I am a wolf in this scenario, you have to believe that (a) sKeith is innocent, or (b) Phaze is innocent, or (c) both are innocent. You also have to believe my strategy as a wolf is to deliberately severely weaken my own ability to argue for my own innocence by progressing onto Carotte that way, and do so for no real gain.

    I gain nothing if this hypothetical team maneuvered 2 townies into the chopping block. The reason why is because town wouldn't know it was two townies, only wolf-me would. So then I get heat for defending a wolf that doesn't even exist.

    As a hypothetical wolf duo Phaze and I also have absolutely nothing to gain if sKeith is a wolf as well, and then we so obviously come to his defense at the last possible second.

    I don't know about you guys but the above is not a championship-caliber scum plan.

    That's dumb for any wolf team. That kind of stuff wouldn't cut the mustard on your own home sites, and you're all aware of that. I've seen wolf teams burn for such nonsense. I've helped burn them for such nonsense.

    To finish my point, even if you think I am that bad at the game, you would also have to believe that sKeith is that bad, and Phaze is that bad, and that our fourth partner who signed off on such a plan is also equally bad or not present at end of day.

    That's just not a scenario that exists here in the real world.

    Don't bet on dumb. If you bet on dumb you make the same mistake I just did, betting on the less likely of the outcomes against your better judgment. That end of day vote movement means there is a maximum of 1 wolf between me and Phaze, regardless of sKeith's alignment. That is very important to know and is information that worth about half what it cost us to obtain.

    I believe some of you, maybe all of you, already figured all of this^^^ stuff out.

    But I am stating it anyway in case any of us got here by betting on the less likely outcome.

    People get fancy and it usually backfires. But sometimes it works and then they end up representing a community because they're known for fancy plays.

    I can't unlynch Carotte for you. I can show you that in this End Of Day mess, some of us have to be townies, despite it all. There is no real path to victory otherwise.

    I believe in the you that believes in the town victory. Go team.

  5. ISO #1605
    Thread Analyst Gravebound's Avatar
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    As of yet I am waiting on Phaze to answer my query in this post1544, as well as his reasoning for the vote switch.

  6. ISO #1606
    CEO of Storp Industries Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Pizza, your intro posts indicated that as town you would be NKd almost always

    To the point that peeking you was pointless.


    I infer from this, that as an SPK, you are either NKd or lynched for "living too long", something i am threatened with all the time.


    I see myself dieing on N2.

    Can you honestly say the same? What am i supposed to think rn?

  7. ISO #1607
    CEO of Storp Industries Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1606)
    Pizza, your intro posts indicated that as town you would be NKd almost always

    To the point that peeking you was pointless.


    I infer from this, that as an SPK, you are either NKd or lynched for "living too long", something i am threatened with all the time.


    I see myself dieing on N2.

    Can you honestly say the same? What am i supposed to think rn?
    Obviously in the worlds where you are lynched, you are always a wolf.

    And always NKd as town.

  8. ISO #1608
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#1571)
    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#1549)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1539)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1537)
    ##Vote sKeith


    Your claim was handled in the wolfiest manner possible
    I told you to claim at :59


    You claimed ten minutes early for clearly SELFISH reasons. That's wolfy.

    Your question of "should i claim?" (Which can ONLY be a question asked by someone who wants to HELP TOWN) does not match up with your actions after.

    Your claim was CLEARLY (imo) an attempt at saving your own life. If you wanted to save your own life regardless...why ask if you should claim? How ks that info relevant?

    You want to live, so you just claim.


    The question (should i claim) does not match the execution (esrly claim full of appeals to our fear, to save your own life)


    Explain why im wrong
    I have already answered this, and you are making yourself look wolfie as hell.
    A :59 reveal does not let town pick a use for my JK. I reread anyhow, and nobody suggested a use anyhow.

    My wolf read said never claim, that was so anti-town.

    My claim was to prevent a mislynch of me, the one person I am 100% is town.

    Your barking up the wrong tree, and its very easy to hound me instead of doing proper analysis.

    Why do you find yourself unable to see a townie doing what I done?

    The wagons last night were v/v.

    Is it your agenda, to make it look like they were w/v so the analysis today is all whack?

    Try to just consider me town, for the wagon analysis at least.


    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#1560)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#1548)
    ##Vote sKeith
    reasons:
    a) protected someone who wasn't going to be a target
    b) did not even try to RB obvscum
    c) day 1
    How did you know they were not going to be targeted?

    Who is the obv scum?
    1) How is a roleclaim supposed to save yourself, considering that the claim reveals nothing about your alignment?
    2) why did you decide not to use your jailer ability to role-block?
    3) why did you choose a target to protect who wasn't even in town core?
    4) why nqt?
    I've answered your questions, now answer mine.

  9. ISO #1609
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notquitethere (#1603)
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1601)
    But I also don't really read an agenda in what he is doing. I can't clear him but people are town by default unless there's something you can show me that says agenda.

    I just cant see for sure that he is town either, or close to it.
    OK I can get that perspective.

    You said that you were going to explain the subtle difference between you not voting as scum and you not voting as town. If you haven't already, I'm all ears.
    It is the difference between the generic and the specific.

    I did cover it a lot yesterday. My three personal main suspects for most of the day were sKeith, Apoc, and tartina.

    Tartina's playstyle and struggles with this format, this place and its culture, led me to believe if she is town against my judgment, my $%#!ty day one judgment, is that the best way I can read her is to not pressure her. Give her space.

    Ultimately, though I think Apoc is a big boy and he could handle me voting him, I don't think that vote would have been at all helpful to the dozen or so people who already knew, I think he looked scummy, and the whole round was getting in danger of being swallowed by two big personalities going at each other.

    I also got extremely cold feet. I think people would hate me even more if I had led a lynch on Apoc and he flipped town. If he is a wolf, I dont think enough of town has made that determination for a lynch to succeed there. If he is a townie, a couple probably did, but 4 wolves alive means we could get a really bad outcome.

    sKeith was under tons of vote pressure all day, and I swear on everything ever, I would have lynched him if Carotte hadn't showed up and made me flinch.

    My fault, but I was happy with a sKeith lynch, and I was willing to end that day with my vote on him especially over Carotte.

    I changed my mind for what I thought were considered reasons but they turned out to be ill considered.

    Then, I specifically pushed Faddy and Digitaldude, I was looking for the wolf that was playing a low risk style and just sitting in the thread and not drawing attention.

    People widely townread Faddy, and after they did, or rather during that process, I didn't trust Digitaldude.

    I felt his characterization of Faddy was wrong and felt agenda driven at the time. Isoing him last night I can't say he is still even suspect. He's not clear but I think I might have been wrong there as well.

    At the time he had little in the way of a process, he was just kind of there. I still think that is very problematic, because it makes him damned hard to read.

    If I went through all of the isos in the game and I had less than 4 wolves, I would put him back under consideration. For now, I think its better to just carefully and solidly and thoroughly do each person one at a time.

    Doing it last night while it was quiet and I was not distracted by playing the game itself in real time, several of my views shifted and I think I prefer those views because they are made while focused and with a clearer head.

    Back to your question:

    It has to be because I am positioning as a wolf, to delay that long on voting. Is that specifically what I was doing?

    Look at the specifics, not the wolfy shape of it.

    It looks bad. I get suspicion on it. But it needs to be looked at closer, like a unique event. It is the exception to the rule.

    I dont know if you will agree with that, but thats what was happening in my process all yesterday. I deliberately did not vote two of my suspects for most of the round because I wanted to use my vote and my time to see if I couldnt find someone who wasnt getting attention. I didnt vote for another one because i felt it would be super counterproductive to my read on them and their ability to play.

    The specifics are why this is the exception to the wolfy rule.

  10. ISO #1610
    1610 roro__b's Avatar Moderator
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    « What you're all here for »
    I think abovementioned might be a great way to discredit apoc.

    Definition: you can out yourself as n1 watcher by asking apoc something along the lines of "you're claiming to have been roleblocked butnkbody visited you this night. Explain". Coukd be a way to mark you as towny.

    Just a suggestion but feels pretty goodif we can turn it into a lynch

  11. ISO #1611
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1606)
    Pizza, your intro posts indicated that as town you would be NKd almost always

    To the point that peeking you was pointless.


    I infer from this, that as an SPK, you are either NKd or lynched for "living too long", something i am threatened with all the time.


    I see myself dieing on N2.

    Can you honestly say the same? What am i supposed to think rn?
    I see myself being lynched.

    And without having been investigated, too.

    How the $%#! would that be good for me as a wolf.

  12. ISO #1612
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    There are only ever two outcomes for me.

    I eat a lynch because I cannot convince my town I am town, or i do dumb $%#! like I did and even people's correct townreads vanish.

    Or,

    I eat a NK because I was amazing.

    For as much as I look like an idiot right now, just as often, I have been an excellent player. I always effing die. I ALWAYS effing die.

    DONT WASTE INVESTIGATIONS ON ME.

    You don't know me like I do, everyone. I always die. Theyre such a waste on me. Keep them for the living.

  13. ISO #1613
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1609)
    My fault, but I was happy with a sKeith lynch, and I was willing to end that day with my vote on him especially over Carotte.
    oh wow, did not know that feature before, hightligh and quote only quotes what you highlished, Nice!

    It was v/v last night. When I flip, i don't want to read this junk to me in the dead room.

    9 people on the wagon does not make it your fault.

    I know i am good, and i lean good on phaze, so I am one person who fits into the world you describe where you can be seen as wolf, and this self inspection does not help me at all, it just fills the page with words i'd prefer not having to read.

  14. ISO #1614
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#1613)
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1609)
    My fault, but I was happy with a sKeith lynch, and I was willing to end that day with my vote on him especially over Carotte.
    oh wow, did not know that feature before, hightligh and quote only quotes what you highlished, Nice!

    It was v/v last night. When I flip, i don't want to read this junk to me in the dead room.

    9 people on the wagon does not make it your fault.

    I know i am good, and i lean good on phaze, so I am one person who fits into the world you describe where you can be seen as wolf, and this self inspection does not help me at all, it just fills the page with words i'd prefer not having to read.
    Too bad. I am also a player in this game and I am allowed to point out there is a villager between me and Phaze.

  15. ISO #1615
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1612)
    There are only ever two outcomes for me.

    I eat a lynch because I cannot convince my town I am town, or i do dumb $%#! like I did and even people's correct townreads vanish.

    Or,

    I eat a NK because I was amazing.

    For as much as I look like an idiot right now, just as often, I have been an excellent player. I always effing die. I ALWAYS effing die.

    DONT WASTE INVESTIGATIONS ON ME.

    You don't know me like I do, everyone. I always die. Theyre such a waste on me. Keep them for the living.
    I do get this, the only way i get to endgame is be a wolf.

  16. ISO #1616
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    I got an easy solution for peeps who would rather not read my posts: ignore mode.

    Vote me if you think I am a wolf, don't vote me if you think I am a villager, ignore me if it helps you solve better.

    But I am here and I won't be pressured not to play the game.

  17. ISO #1617
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1614)
    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#1613)
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1609)
    My fault, but I was happy with a sKeith lynch, and I was willing to end that day with my vote on him especially over Carotte.
    oh wow, did not know that feature before, hightligh and quote only quotes what you highlished, Nice!

    It was v/v last night. When I flip, i don't want to read this junk to me in the dead room.

    9 people on the wagon does not make it your fault.

    I know i am good, and i lean good on phaze, so I am one person who fits into the world you describe where you can be seen as wolf, and this self inspection does not help me at all, it just fills the page with words i'd prefer not having to read.
    Too bad. I am also a player in this game and I am allowed to point out there is a villager between me and Phaze.
    It is very possible that both you and phaze are v. no?

  18. ISO #1618
    1610 mendel's Avatar
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    @Askthepizzaguy
    1609 no you would not have lynched sKeith, because Phaze would have broken the draw if Carotte hadn't shown up
    which you were expecting as certainty

    and it was unclear, given how late Carotte voted, that Phaze could even be stopped in time, maybe you wrote in scumchat "dont vote" and he never saw it because that was the last two minutes of the game

    and that is how you get to the w/w/w reading that you are trying hard to discourage in 1604
    by adding time pressure and confusion

    @sKeith you evaded the prot or block question
    you evaded telling us who your towncore is
    i obviously do not know who would be targetted
    the question you did not answer was, why did you think mafia would target HIM
    and you can read my post for who i figure might be scum
    since jailing doesnt prevent investigation, there is little drawback to jailing scum on N1

    are you just naturally scummy, or is it because you are scum in this game?
    Finding out who you are is important.
    How to slank in Mafia games -- share your experiences!

  19. ISO #1619
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    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#1617)
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1614)
    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#1613)
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1609)
    My fault, but I was happy with a sKeith lynch, and I was willing to end that day with my vote on him especially over Carotte.
    oh wow, did not know that feature before, hightligh and quote only quotes what you highlished, Nice!

    It was v/v last night. When I flip, i don't want to read this junk to me in the dead room.

    9 people on the wagon does not make it your fault.

    I know i am good, and i lean good on phaze, so I am one person who fits into the world you describe where you can be seen as wolf, and this self inspection does not help me at all, it just fills the page with words i'd prefer not having to read.
    Too bad. I am also a player in this game and I am allowed to point out there is a villager between me and Phaze.
    It is very possible that both you and phaze are v. no?
    Possible.

    But I am having a lot of trouble seeing any world where you and me and phaze are all villagers.

    This looms over our heads. It needs to be resolved at some point. Doesnt have to be today, but soon.

  20. ISO #1620
    CEO of Storp Industries Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1604)
    This I wrote as part of my intended apologies to Carotte and her community, in addition to the full explanation about my vote on her.

    I then pivoted to trying to get back to something productive, the vote analysis.

    I have the benefit of knowing for sure one of us is a villager. So it was maybe easier for me to see this.

    Quote:

    As you all saw, at the end of the day, Phaze shifted his vote as well. I didn't see it as I was also shifting my vote at the same time.

    I need you to world-build with me. These are hypothetical worlds:

    In the event sKeith is a wolf, it should be noted that both Phaze and me shifted votes at the last possible minute, together. Phaze did have time to call for a vote count afterward so I would expect there was maybe 10 seconds left in the round by the time we both switched vote. The count came immediately after as I recall.

    That (timing) is a double-question-mark mistake on my part. I switched too late which doesn't give Carotte the chance to follow the publicly stated plan to claim in time. I don't need to imagine what it does for your thoughts on my own alignment. If I was going to do that I needed to decide sooner, but it all happened right at the end of the round, and I was considering a lot of worlds.

    To my point:

    If sKeith flips scum, it should be reasonable for the rest of you to conclude that both Phaze and myself cannot be wolves together. My own vote change was worth 2 votes, because I was on the other wagon. Phaze's vote shift was not needed.

    Note also the overall thread feeling about sKeith: a lot of people I am reading as town or solidly town, and many who are more or less consensus town, have sKeith as someone who needs to be lynched.

    It is a poor strategy to use two wolves to save one which is already pretty much always dying, and in so doing make certain that both Phaze and myself are huge suspects going forward for no reason.

    As much of a blunder as I feel my vote switch from sKeith to Carotte was, it would be ten times such a blunder to save sKeith using both myself and Phaze. There is no reason to connect us by simulvoting at 11:00 (my time), and it would be costly because no one thinks that me and Phaze and sKeith all form a team, so far as I remember. It is absurdly bad wolfing. You should be able to conclude that the most reasonable explanation in any sKeith!wolf universe is that only one of Phaze and myself at maximum can be a wolf in this specific situation.

    Furthermore, if sKeith is a villager,
    you could conclude much the same thing: I had gotten votes, but there was never any real consensus I was scum. In lynching Carotte with a last second vote switch, now, I often do eat a lynch at some point in the game. Maybe immediately.

    If sKeith is a villager as well as Carotte, and I am a wolf, I know all of that before I place such a vote at the last minute. I would have already had two townies queued up and my entire team safe in such a universe. It's incredibly ill-advised and not needed. There is no reason to suddenly increase my wolf equity and also go against my own stated progression as wildly (and indefensibly) as I detailed above, with sKeith ---> Carotte.

    In order to believe I am a wolf in this scenario, you have to believe that (a) sKeith is innocent, or (b) Phaze is innocent, or (c) both are innocent. You also have to believe my strategy as a wolf is to deliberately severely weaken my own ability to argue for my own innocence by progressing onto Carotte that way, and do so for no real gain.

    I gain nothing if this hypothetical team maneuvered 2 townies into the chopping block. The reason why is because town wouldn't know it was two townies, only wolf-me would. So then I get heat for defending a wolf that doesn't even exist.

    As a hypothetical wolf duo Phaze and I also have absolutely nothing to gain if sKeith is a wolf as well, and then we so obviously come to his defense at the last possible second.

    I don't know about you guys but the above is not a championship-caliber scum plan.

    That's dumb for any wolf team. That kind of stuff wouldn't cut the mustard on your own home sites, and you're all aware of that. I've seen wolf teams burn for such nonsense. I've helped burn them for such nonsense.

    To finish my point, even if you think I am that bad at the game, you would also have to believe that sKeith is that bad, and Phaze is that bad, and that our fourth partner who signed off on such a plan is also equally bad or not present at end of day.

    That's just not a scenario that exists here in the real world.

    Don't bet on dumb. If you bet on dumb you make the same mistake I just did, betting on the less likely of the outcomes against your better judgment. That end of day vote movement means there is a maximum of 1 wolf between me and Phaze, regardless of sKeith's alignment. That is very important to know and is information that worth about half what it cost us to obtain.

    I believe some of you, maybe all of you, already figured all of this^^^ stuff out.

    But I am stating it anyway in case any of us got here by betting on the less likely outcome.

    People get fancy and it usually backfires. But sometimes it works and then they end up representing a community because they're known for fancy plays.

    I can't unlynch Carotte for you. I can show you that in this End Of Day mess, some of us have to be townies, despite it all. There is no real path to victory otherwise.

    I believe in the you that believes in the town victory. Go team.


    This post is good, thanks pizza.

    My only thought is you explored the worlds where you are not a wolf, but kind of glossed over the worlds where you are.

    Phaze is my townread. Phaze is a loose cannon, we're talking about a guy who openly claimed he would lie about his role in a game with no role flips.
    His last second switch is probably something i can believe he would, just do.


    So the world i am most interested in is immediately is
    Keith/Pizza w/w

    Where you hope that by saving keith and killing a keith voter, he may be able to step up D2 and go a bit deeper.

    You can claim that this is suicidal. That it is not "champs level wolfing".

    Guess what, It's what myself/gh/visor did in champs finale. We decided we would rather die together than bus.


    So i dont think it's fair to rule out or gloss over a keith/pizza team like that. It's probably the most likely wolf!pizza world that we need to consider.


    Aside,

    I would say any world where keith is town, your vote is less suspicious, but maybe you wanted to kill the unclaimed player? And also Carotte may have cleared herself in time, so was the preferred lynch of wolves. Is that benefit worth exposing yourself over? Probably not. So if keith is town you are more likely just town.

  21. ISO #1621
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#1618)
    @Askthepizzaguy
    1609 no you would not have lynched sKeith, because Phaze would have broken the draw if Carotte hadn't shown up
    which you were expecting as certainty

    and it was unclear, given how late Carotte voted, that Phaze could even be stopped in time, maybe you wrote in scumchat "dont vote" and he never saw it because that was the last two minutes of the game

    and that is how you get to the w/w/w reading that you are trying hard to discourage in 1604
    by adding time pressure and confusion

    @sKeith you evaded the prot or block question
    you evaded telling us who your towncore is
    i obviously do not know who would be targetted
    the question you did not answer was, why did you think mafia would target HIM
    and you can read my post for who i figure might be scum
    since jailing doesnt prevent investigation, there is little drawback to jailing scum on N1

    are you just naturally scummy, or is it because you are scum in this game?
    You evaded ALL my questions!

  22. ISO #1622
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#1618)
    @Askthepizzaguy
    1609 no you would not have lynched sKeith, because Phaze would have broken the draw if Carotte hadn't shown up
    which you were expecting as certainty

    and it was unclear, given how late Carotte voted, that Phaze could even be stopped in time, maybe you wrote in scumchat "dont vote" and he never saw it because that was the last two minutes of the game

    and that is how you get to the w/w/w reading that you are trying hard to discourage in 1604
    by adding time pressure and confusion
    I was referring to my own vote. I would have been voting to lynch sKeith if Carotte had not been here.

    My vote movement was my decision. But I had made a different decision before that point and would have kept with it.

  23. ISO #1623
    CEO of Storp Industries Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravebound (#1605)
    As of yet I am waiting on Phaze to answer my query in this post1544, as well as his reasoning for the vote switch.
    Exactly this.

    Some of us dont operate on vote analysis, so wothout phaze here there is nothing to analyze yet.

    We just wait for Phaze to explain himself and make a read on those posts. Rather than explore all the worlds that could be.

  24. ISO #1624
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1620)
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1604)
    This I wrote as part of my intended apologies to Carotte and her community, in addition to the full explanation about my vote on her.

    I then pivoted to trying to get back to something productive, the vote analysis.

    I have the benefit of knowing for sure one of us is a villager. So it was maybe easier for me to see this.

    Quote:

    As you all saw, at the end of the day, Phaze shifted his vote as well. I didn't see it as I was also shifting my vote at the same time.

    I need you to world-build with me. These are hypothetical worlds:

    In the event sKeith is a wolf, it should be noted that both Phaze and me shifted votes at the last possible minute, together. Phaze did have time to call for a vote count afterward so I would expect there was maybe 10 seconds left in the round by the time we both switched vote. The count came immediately after as I recall.

    That (timing) is a double-question-mark mistake on my part. I switched too late which doesn't give Carotte the chance to follow the publicly stated plan to claim in time. I don't need to imagine what it does for your thoughts on my own alignment. If I was going to do that I needed to decide sooner, but it all happened right at the end of the round, and I was considering a lot of worlds.

    To my point:

    If sKeith flips scum, it should be reasonable for the rest of you to conclude that both Phaze and myself cannot be wolves together. My own vote change was worth 2 votes, because I was on the other wagon. Phaze's vote shift was not needed.

    Note also the overall thread feeling about sKeith: a lot of people I am reading as town or solidly town, and many who are more or less consensus town, have sKeith as someone who needs to be lynched.

    It is a poor strategy to use two wolves to save one which is already pretty much always dying, and in so doing make certain that both Phaze and myself are huge suspects going forward for no reason.

    As much of a blunder as I feel my vote switch from sKeith to Carotte was, it would be ten times such a blunder to save sKeith using both myself and Phaze. There is no reason to connect us by simulvoting at 11:00 (my time), and it would be costly because no one thinks that me and Phaze and sKeith all form a team, so far as I remember. It is absurdly bad wolfing. You should be able to conclude that the most reasonable explanation in any sKeith!wolf universe is that only one of Phaze and myself at maximum can be a wolf in this specific situation.

    Furthermore, if sKeith is a villager,
    you could conclude much the same thing: I had gotten votes, but there was never any real consensus I was scum. In lynching Carotte with a last second vote switch, now, I often do eat a lynch at some point in the game. Maybe immediately.

    If sKeith is a villager as well as Carotte, and I am a wolf, I know all of that before I place such a vote at the last minute. I would have already had two townies queued up and my entire team safe in such a universe. It's incredibly ill-advised and not needed. There is no reason to suddenly increase my wolf equity and also go against my own stated progression as wildly (and indefensibly) as I detailed above, with sKeith ---> Carotte.

    In order to believe I am a wolf in this scenario, you have to believe that (a) sKeith is innocent, or (b) Phaze is innocent, or (c) both are innocent. You also have to believe my strategy as a wolf is to deliberately severely weaken my own ability to argue for my own innocence by progressing onto Carotte that way, and do so for no real gain.

    I gain nothing if this hypothetical team maneuvered 2 townies into the chopping block. The reason why is because town wouldn't know it was two townies, only wolf-me would. So then I get heat for defending a wolf that doesn't even exist.

    As a hypothetical wolf duo Phaze and I also have absolutely nothing to gain if sKeith is a wolf as well, and then we so obviously come to his defense at the last possible second.

    I don't know about you guys but the above is not a championship-caliber scum plan.

    That's dumb for any wolf team. That kind of stuff wouldn't cut the mustard on your own home sites, and you're all aware of that. I've seen wolf teams burn for such nonsense. I've helped burn them for such nonsense.

    To finish my point, even if you think I am that bad at the game, you would also have to believe that sKeith is that bad, and Phaze is that bad, and that our fourth partner who signed off on such a plan is also equally bad or not present at end of day.

    That's just not a scenario that exists here in the real world.

    Don't bet on dumb. If you bet on dumb you make the same mistake I just did, betting on the less likely of the outcomes against your better judgment. That end of day vote movement means there is a maximum of 1 wolf between me and Phaze, regardless of sKeith's alignment. That is very important to know and is information that worth about half what it cost us to obtain.

    I believe some of you, maybe all of you, already figured all of this^^^ stuff out.

    But I am stating it anyway in case any of us got here by betting on the less likely outcome.

    People get fancy and it usually backfires. But sometimes it works and then they end up representing a community because they're known for fancy plays.

    I can't unlynch Carotte for you. I can show you that in this End Of Day mess, some of us have to be townies, despite it all. There is no real path to victory otherwise.

    I believe in the you that believes in the town victory. Go team.


    This post is good, thanks pizza.

    My only thought is you explored the worlds where you are not a wolf, but kind of glossed over the worlds where you are.

    Phaze is my townread. Phaze is a loose cannon, we're talking about a guy who openly claimed he would lie about his role in a game with no role flips.
    His last second switch is probably something i can believe he would, just do.


    So the world i am most interested in is immediately is
    Keith/Pizza w/w

    Where you hope that by saving keith and killing a keith voter, he may be able to step up D2 and go a bit deeper.

    You can claim that this is suicidal. That it is not "champs level wolfing".

    Guess what, It's what myself/gh/visor did in champs finale. We decided we would rather die together than bus.


    So i dont think it's fair to rule out or gloss over a keith/pizza team like that. It's probably the most likely wolf!pizza world that we need to consider.


    Aside,

    I would say any world where keith is town, your vote is less suspicious, but maybe you wanted to kill the unclaimed player? And also Carotte may have cleared herself in time, so was the preferred lynch of wolves. Is that benefit worth exposing yourself over? Probably not. So if keith is town you are more likely just town.
    I do not rate the value of a dead villager going unclaimed compared to my own life as a wolf.

    One is worth far more than the other. This is a role heavy game, and most of the roles are worth the equivalent of peanuts.

    The only benefit to a dead unclaimed is a fakeclaim that cant be proven to be fake I think.

    I don't think that is worth nearly as much as I can be.

  25. ISO #1625
    1610 mendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#1621)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#1618)
    @Askthepizzaguy
    1609 no you would not have lynched sKeith, because Phaze would have broken the draw if Carotte hadn't shown up
    which you were expecting as certainty

    and it was unclear, given how late Carotte voted, that Phaze could even be stopped in time, maybe you wrote in scumchat "dont vote" and he never saw it because that was the last two minutes of the game

    and that is how you get to the w/w/w reading that you are trying hard to discourage in 1604
    by adding time pressure and confusion

    @sKeith you evaded the prot or block question
    you evaded telling us who your towncore is
    i obviously do not know who would be targetted
    the question you did not answer was, why did you think mafia would target HIM
    and you can read my post for who i figure might be scum
    since jailing doesnt prevent investigation, there is little drawback to jailing scum on N1

    are you just naturally scummy, or is it because you are scum in this game?
    You evaded ALL my questions!
    you had two questions
    i answered them
    you didnt
    and your head is on the block
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  26. ISO #1626
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1611)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1606)
    Pizza, your intro posts indicated that as town you would be NKd almost always

    To the point that peeking you was pointless.


    I infer from this, that as an SPK, you are either NKd or lynched for "living too long", something i am threatened with all the time.


    I see myself dieing on N2.

    Can you honestly say the same? What am i supposed to think rn?
    I see myself being lynched.

    And without having been investigated, too.

    How the $%#! would that be good for me as a wolf.
    I guess my point is that based on your jntro

    Any worlds where its even possible to lynch you, are typically worlds where you are also a wolf

    Lucky for you i dont believe in meta, so if you are town your lynch doesnt have to be a foregone conclusion just "because meta"

    Just wanted to get your pov on it

  27. ISO #1627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1612)
    There are only ever two outcomes for me.

    I eat a lynch because I cannot convince my town I am town, or i do dumb $%#! like I did and even people's correct townreads vanish.

    Or,

    I eat a NK because I was amazing.

    For as much as I look like an idiot right now, just as often, I have been an excellent player. I always effing die. I ALWAYS effing die.

    DONT WASTE INVESTIGATIONS ON ME.

    You don't know me like I do, everyone. I always die. Theyre such a waste on me. Keep them for the living.
    Ooooh

    Ok, i get it better now i think.

    You just never seem to live until LYLO, is the point you were making?

    Ok, slightly different to what was in my head but i get it now. This is helpful.

    Ignore my last post

  28. ISO #1628
    1610 mendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1622)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#1618)
    @Askthepizzaguy
    1609 no you would not have lynched sKeith, because Phaze would have broken the draw if Carotte hadn't shown up
    which you were expecting as certainty

    and it was unclear, given how late Carotte voted, that Phaze could even be stopped in time, maybe you wrote in scumchat "dont vote" and he never saw it because that was the last two minutes of the game

    and that is how you get to the w/w/w reading that you are trying hard to discourage in 1604
    by adding time pressure and confusion
    I was referring to my own vote. I would have been voting to lynch sKeith if Carotte had not been here.

    My vote movement was my decision. But I had made a different decision before that point and would have kept with it.
    except there is no proof of it
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  29. ISO #1629
    CEO of Storp Industries Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    The thing i dont get is why in these worlds

    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1612)
    I eat a lynch because I cannot convince my town I am town, or i do dumb $%#! like I did and even people's correct townreads vanish.
    You would rather be lynched than peeked.

    If you werent averse to being peeked you might be mislynched less. Surely that can only be good for town.

    Anyway, im moving on from this topic.

  30. ISO #1630
    CEO of Storp Industries Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1620)
    My only thought is you explored the worlds where you are not a wolf, but kind of glossed over the worlds where you are.
    "Apoc is an idiot, why would pizza explore worlds where pizza is a wolf. Especialy if he's a villager"

    Shhhh

  31. ISO #1631
    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#1621)
    @sKeith you evaded the prot or block question
    you evaded telling us who your towncore is
    i obviously do not know who would be targetted
    the question you did not answer was, why did you think mafia would target HIM
    and you can read my post for who i figure might be scum
    since jailing doesnt prevent investigation, there is little drawback to jailing scum on N1

    are you just naturally scummy, or is it because you are scum in this game?
    Sorry, i should have posted more than just a reply to first bit.

    You evaded ALL my questions!

    I sought to prevent the NK.

    I didn't have the same townie read on distorted as others may have, because i was on the receiving end of his constant haggling.
    As I said, i was not the only protector, and others didn't protect distorted either.

    I told you already, NQT was who I towncored, and I thought the obv NK.

    Can you post it again, i forget who you think is scum. And that stuff is old anyhow, we've had two flips since, i need to see evolution.

    Why did you not give me some advise after i role claimed yesterday, 30 minutes before the lynch. Someone said it would be a great role for mafia to have, that made me think about idling.
    In the end, i looked at what roles i would be rolebloclking and make a decision to protect against NK. What role do you think was so worth stopping as opposed to preventing a NK?

    I don't believe I am naturally scummy, but go check out my town game for yourself. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/show...p?t=2057977767 then come back and tell me and then i'll know what to tell others when they ask.

  32. ISO #1632
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1626)
    I guess my point is that based on your jntro

    Any worlds where its even possible to lynch you, are typically worlds where you are also a wolf
    Based on my opening today, and everything that I have done and explained in detail. would you say that my odds of being lynched based on my dumb move have dropped significantly?

    I can work my way out of this. I have lynched a townie day 1 in three of my champs appearances. Of those situations, I was the immediate nightkill anyway since I formed a towncore out of nothing but almost the entire town and had the wolves in my bottom 6, but... the wrong bottom three.

    In the other situation I dueled a wolf all d2 and lynched them, survived the NK, hardclaimed cop, peeked two villagers, ate the NK, flipped vanilla townie, and then the real cop claimed a wolf peek.

    My day ones can suck. I still got sent as the rep from my forum on my own merits twice for a reason.

  33. ISO #1633
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Its time to focus on the rest of this game.

    Rather than take up space and make noise, I am going back to doing the more carefully considered ISO work that I probably should have been doing D1 instead of N1, or rushing the isos and dividing my attention.

    If you have questions, bold my name, dont ping me please.

  34. ISO #1634
    1610 mendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#1631)
    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#1621)
    @sKeith you evaded the prot or block question
    you evaded telling us who your towncore is
    i obviously do not know who would be targetted
    the question you did not answer was, why did you think mafia would target HIM
    and you can read my post for who i figure might be scum
    since jailing doesnt prevent investigation, there is little drawback to jailing scum on N1

    are you just naturally scummy, or is it because you are scum in this game?
    Sorry, i should have posted more than just a reply to first bit.

    You evaded ALL my questions!

    I sought to prevent the NK.

    I didn't have the same townie read on distorted as others may have, because i was on the receiving end of his constant haggling.
    As I said, i was not the only protector, and others didn't protect distorted either.

    I told you already, NQT was who I towncored, and I thought the obv NK.

    Can you post it again, i forget who you think is scum. And that stuff is old anyhow, we've had two flips since, i need to see evolution.

    Why did you not give me some advise after i role claimed yesterday, 30 minutes before the lynch. Someone said it would be a great role for mafia to have, that made me think about idling.
    In the end, i looked at what roles i would be rolebloclking and make a decision to protect against NK. What role do you think was so worth stopping as opposed to preventing a NK?

    I don't believe I am naturally scummy, but go check out my town game for yourself. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/show...p?t=2057977767 then come back and tell me and then i'll know what to tell others when they ask.
    you might be the only protector, the doctor could not be in the game, or be a mafia
    you did not explain why you thought scum would go for nqt
    you did not explain why you didnt block
    i am not giving advice to PRs and make them predictable
    the post i am referring to was TODAY and has a big red header ffs

    your defense is just as $%#!ty as it was yesterday
    yay for consistency?
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  35. ISO #1635
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1619)
    Possible.

    But I am having a lot of trouble seeing any world where you and me and phaze are all villagers.

    This looms over our heads. It needs to be resolved at some point. Doesnt have to be today, but soon.
    i dont see why?

    If you are all villagers, votes and wagons were meaningless...

    I think it's perfectly possible, perhaps even more likely than rand for you 3 to all be villagers (in a world where i have not read your posts).


    Why do you think the trio contains a wolf?

  36. ISO #1636
    Thread Analyst digitaldude's Avatar
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    Phyze
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#289)
    My reading of previous games in this series suggest that the odds of winning may have a mafia lean. What I would like to see from todays play is at least two bandwagons near the end of the day as last minute shifting before the faction reveal may be instructive
    Like I said prophetic, and the person doing the last minute shifting was you... and Pizzaman! Before you two carotte voted skeith obviously to self perserve, and before that distorted voted skeith both townies not much here. Just before that skeith votes carotte and then quickly followed by notquitethere on carotte, might be something there need to look at notquitethere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#297)
    Rightly or wrongly I am under the impression that an effective scum team normally has one very active spokesperson and the rest lie-low until needed.
    It is my opinion that instead of hunting for the quiet ones that a lot more feedback can be obtained by pressuring active people (at least initially)

    ##Vote Askthepizzaguy
    Agreed, this will change now with day 1 out of the way. in the end though you and pizzaguy voted together seconds apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#305)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#298)
    Quote Originally Posted by Faddy (#277)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#276)
    I understood NOTHING about the roleclaim and massclaiming strategies that some of you are talking about. I expect that someone will explain the agenda like if they were talking to little children
    Without going too in depth about this whole set up. I have come to the conclusion that there is no point in softing a role because it isn't clearing. And there is no point softing target because we only get alignment flips. So if someone claims there should be no taking it back. Lies and gambits will destroy town in this set up.
    weird way to answer a player who just professed ignorance of the terminology
    softing = soft-claiming = writing hints
    a hard-claim is naming the role (or the target) directly

    I don't understand what "it isn't clearing" means.

    "Lynch All Liars" is a good policy, but...
    I think that expressing the policy of lynch all liars shuts down some legitimate goodie plays even in this game.
    One being softing a spy type role instead of a late game block/trap role (not such effective if you dont know who is carrying the kill)to "take the hit" for the goodie team
    If I understood this right(note on my forum we use 0% of the terms here) baitng the mafia? yeah normal games but this one...im not sure. Laying down clues for a future claim its something both mafia/townie do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#314)
    Quote Originally Posted by Faddy (#302)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#300)
    Quote Originally Posted by Faddy (#293)
    WTF is this?

    You post nothing then come in with how you want the day structured? Let people vote where they want. In my experience it is quite easy for mafia to engineer two town trains then insist no one looks any further.
    "At least" meaning 2 or more
    Sorry I misread that.

    Ok what does that even mean? Before EoD we should have votes on more than 1 person. That makes your post go from weird to pointless.
    You have jumped on me pretty quick, Are you planning on tunneling me bro?
    Preemptive strike to shut down tunneling, is this a mafia move? hmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#319)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#316)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#297)
    Rightly or wrongly I am under the impression that an effective scum team normally has one very active spokesperson and the rest lie-low until needed.
    It is my opinion that instead of hunting for the quiet ones that a lot more feedback can be obtained by pressuring active people (at least initially)

    ##Vote Askthepizzaguy
    I would really love to flip you for that just to prove you wrong
    why are you trying to establish a narrative how an "effective scum team" works when you are pulling that "normally" out of your $%#!? I've seen very effective active teams here.
    To do this it requires a communication overhead. If mafia go about trying to "prove me wrong" it makes the game harder for them to play
    mafia changing strategy based off one post?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#328)
    Quote Originally Posted by Carotte (#315)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#289)
    My reading of previous games in this series suggest that the odds of winning may have a mafia lean. What I would like to see from todays play is at least two bandwagons near the end of the day as last minute shifting before the faction reveal may be instructive
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#297)
    Rightly or wrongly I am under the impression that an effective scum team normally has one very active spokesperson and the rest lie-low until needed.
    It is my opinion that instead of hunting for the quiet ones that a lot more feedback can be obtained by pressuring active people (at least initially)

    ##Vote Askthepizzaguy
    That's a weird approach...

    1) What tells you that Askthepizzaguy is more mafia than Apoc?
    2) I feel like you're trying to emphase the Pizza/Apoc opposition and create a duel between two town... What if the people targeted by the two bandwagons are both town and mafia juste sneak in the bandwagon?
    3)If the "very active spokesperson" dies, how would you recognize the "quiet ones" behind him.. ?

    --

    (I didn't read anything after post #300, coming back after eating)
    1) I would say intuition based on Apoc looking like he was trying to extract information were pizza was being a bit slippery. What I am worried about it that we dismiss this conversation as resolved without going in depth.
    2) The more bandwagons (of at least 3 votes) we have the more chance we have of hitting at least one mafia. It strikes me as odd people don't know what "at least" means
    3) You know how sometimes a player goes from being quiet to more active....
    2. I more agreed with sothys when he said bandwagons will form naturally towards the end which they did. From observing your vote history, voted pizzaman, then faddy to pressure him, then me the moment I subbed in, then few posts later back to pizzaman where you stayed for 1000 posts til you sniped carotte. No effort to make bandwagons despite saying its whats needed to get mafia. Intriguing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#335)
    Fair warning: If you want to do a mass claim today I will lie about my role
    I'm not sure if I missed it but did you ever explain why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#342)
    Is it just me or does anybody else find questions and answers about terminology as have a w/w lean or at least some form of pocketing (buddying up)
    Hmmm I mean I did this but im not mafia bro. I know nothing of terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#343)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#340)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#335)
    Fair warning: If you want to do a mass claim today I will lie about my role
    you want this so badly, have it
    ##Vote Phaze
    Have you read my sig?
    Where sig?
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#345)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravebound (#323)
    For what it's worth, I'm less and less inclined to think Pizza and Apoc are aligned in terms of faction(w/w). If they are, they are both doing a great job creating some faux tension between the both of them.

    @Phaze, @sKeith and @Pizza, with you three having a vote against you, I'd like to hear reasons why these votes should, in your opinion, be retracted. Assuming you would like to live a little longer.
    Yes, assuming....

    Quite happy to be one of the bandwagons if you don't think I am to be trusted if you are quite happy to take responsibility for your vote if/when I am lynched
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#375)
    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#364)
    Trying the multi-ISO - pretty sure I'm not doing it right...

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#289)
    My reading of previous games in this series suggest that the odds of winning may have a mafia lean. What I would like to see from todays play is at least two bandwagons near the end of the day as last minute shifting before the faction reveal may be instructive
    Fair enough, after having read your other posts I guess it's a decent point..

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#297)
    Rightly or wrongly I am under the impression that an effective scum team normally has one very active spokesperson and the rest lie-low until needed.
    It is my opinion that instead of hunting for the quiet ones that a lot more feedback can be obtained by pressuring active people (at least initially)

    ##Vote Askthepizzaguy
    Uhm, an effective one or do you think that's how you should organize? Actually I reacted more on the second part, pressuring the active ones is just... they're doing it themselves? Idk.. I don't get this standpoint at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#314)
    Quote Originally Posted by Faddy (#302)
    Sorry I misread that.

    Ok what does that even mean? Before EoD we should have votes on more than 1 person. That makes your post go from weird to pointless.
    You have jumped on me pretty quick, Are you planning on tunneling me bro?
    This is like the least towny post of the game, did you read through g2? It's exactly how their wolves acted under pressure.... Read through it and up your wolf-game sir .

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#328)
    Quote Originally Posted by Carotte (#315)
    Rightly or wrongly I am under the impression that an effective scum team normally has one very active spokesperson and the rest lie-low until needed.
    It is my opinion that instead of hunting for the quiet ones that a lot more feedback can be obtained by pressuring active people (at least initially)

    ##Vote Askthepizzaguy

    That's a weird approach...

    1) What tells you that Askthepizzaguy is more mafia than Apoc?
    2) I feel like you're trying to emphase the Pizza/Apoc opposition and create a duel between two town... What if the people targeted by the two bandwagons are both town and mafia juste sneak in the bandwagon?
    3)If the "very active spokesperson" dies, how would you recognize the "quiet ones" behind him.. ?

    --

    (I didn't read anything after post #300, coming back after eating)
    1) I would say intuition based on Apoc looking like he was trying to extract information were pizza was being a bit slippery. What I am worried about it that we dismiss this conversation as resolved without going in depth.
    2) The more bandwagons (of at least 3 votes) we have the more chance we have of hitting at least one mafia. It strikes me as odd people don't know what "at least" means
    3) You know how sometimes a player goes from being quiet to more active....
    Wait, you actually read through the other games... My bad.

    I love Carottes questions here. Decent answers though, especially the 2) helps me get how you think.. but are we dismissing the discussion? I'm definitely not. I'm saving it, lots of juicy stuff there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#335)
    Fair warning: If you want to do a mass claim today I will lie about my role
    If we mass-claim (not that I see it as a possibility today, and I don't even like the idea, but...) it should be town-consensus, and in that case it's just not good for town, also a nice cover for a mafia. Lots of fakeclaims in that case,really helpful for town with yet another one . Idk man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#342)
    Is it just me or does anybody else find questions and answers about terminology as have a w/w lean or at least some form of pocketing (buddying up)
    I don't, it's just mildly annoying, I keep looking up every other word and how to use this site, ppl should at least try first, but that might just be my personal opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#343)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#340)
    you want this so badly, have it
    ##Vote Phaze
    Have you read my sig?
    I haven't either ))))))))

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#345)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravebound (#323)
    For what it's worth, I'm less and less inclined to think Pizza and Apoc are aligned in terms of faction(w/w). If they are, they are both doing a great job creating some faux tension between the both of them.

    @Phaze, @sKeith and @Pizza, with you three having a vote against you, I'd like to hear reasons why these votes should, in your opinion, be retracted. Assuming you would like to live a little longer.
    Yes, assuming....

    Quite happy to be one of the bandwagons if you don't think I am to be trusted if you are quite happy to take responsibility for your vote if/when I am lynched
    This is also not a nice answer to that kind of question - see above.


    All in all, got some thoughts about several of the active players but this above is enough for me to motivate a vote. Not decided in any way but I'd love some answers instead of that edge-out attitude. Doesn't help us in any way, at least try mate.

    ##Vote Phaze
    So, you are saying that you believe there to be enough suspicion on me that when I flip village you can cover yourself from responsibility for your vote with an "Oh dear!" ? If you have ISOd all my posts you will also see my reasoning for claiming that I will lie if there is a mass-claim (note that I have not as yet lied). I believe that lying can be a legitimate goodie play. The point of this outrageous post is that I judge that mass-claiming is too early. And also to poll out how the other players feel. If I am to be lynched could you make sure that all the players on me are held accountable for their choice? There is likely to be a few opportunistic wolves who were on me early trying to start a single bandwagon.
    I've seen mafia say these things a lot...hmm. Using your logic I would guess you would welcome scrutiny for voting carotte.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#399)
    seeing as there are a few people who are willing to bandwagon me would you allow me to pick the secondary bandwagon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#405)
    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#402)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#399)
    seeing as there are a few people who are willing to bandwagon me would you allow me to pick the secondary bandwagon?
    ##Unvote Phaze


    There you go buddy. I believe
    hmm, why the retraction? freaked out that I might choose you as the secondary bandwagon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#488)
    Now that I am no longer the main person on the choping block I don't think I should be given the opportunity to dictate who the counter train should be
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#605)
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted (#592)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#590)
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#587)
    I am getting townie vibes only from gravebound. I'll vote for pizza man now too far into the day phase to make random votes I do like making them but I wasn't present like 80% of the phase. ##Vote Askthepizzaguy
    BAAAAAA
    @Phaze and @digitaldude wht is your current stance on sKeith?
    If I didn't answer this im not sure what im doing out on this limb

    Wait

    What are you doing?

    not the chainsaw

    RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR


    wot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#459)
    Now that I have crawled halfway across this limb I might as well go further and guess that KeithS is an inactive goodie. The benefit is that if he is lynched and is village I get goodie points, and I intend to be a thorn in the side of anybody voting him D2. The downside is that I will be thought wolf if he is wolf. Given the ratio of wolves to villagers might not be such a risk.
    The most intriguing post considering what happened, you plan to defend him on d2 too? Is that why you voted for carotte?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#454)
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted (#452)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#451)
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted (#450)
    here, I will prove u wrong with ur own words.

    A lot more information can be gathered from the active ones.

    The only benefit is that it promotes activity.
    I don't see how that proves "limited value" wrong as the aim is to solving the game rather just promote activity
    activity = information. information = how we solve the game.

    so promoting activity is promoting the flow of info. That's how we get scumreads, alignments, all of fit. I dunno I guess we do have a lot of PR roles this game...a lot lol but even then, look at game 1. PR claims cant be trusted late game. I would rather get as much as the dead weight out early rather than having to sift trhoguh it on MYLO ect.
    I have been in too many games where inactive village are easy targets for Mafia (especially D1). Enough to be wary of people suggesting policy lynching them or putting their votes on "easy pickings" for the whole day and going "whoops, they should have defended themselves". It is not enough to pressure people, you need to pressure the right people. This is also why I have shifted my vote (for now, Pizza does not seem to be around for questioning. If you are not getting enough information from someone I suggest telling them so (or pointing it out), and then bookmarking it for follow-up later.
    Tartina part 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#1472)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#1449)
    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#1430)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#1417)
    You don't expect that your claim will save you, do you? You seem to be using it for that purpose.
    is a jailkeepper that $#@! of a role?
    it isnt
    i wouldnt want scum to wield it
    Makes me more sure that sKeith isn't scum
    I got tired of going posts one by one. I can't fcking do it guys the iso thing. anyway the rest of the posts were suspicions on pizza and defending skeith. Consistant with that final vote on corette. Anyway my questions are why do you feel so strongly about skeith? Did you realize the vote on corette would have made it a tie and did you know that a tie will have a random kill and not a time extention(cause thats a rule in every game i've played maybe your community is same)? @Phyze I'm thinking possible mafia.


    thats phyze. Now to pizzaman. You quized me on my solve, I assume solve means strategy. I gave unsatisfactory answer according to you and that made me a suspect, later on you didn't understand the rules of role reveals at death, wouldn't that affect your strategy. I mean you can't approach every game the same. Then this...
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1153)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#1148)
    Everyone but askpizza think faddy town.
    I start thinking that ask pizza is wolf that is focussing someone randomly to feign interest in wolf finding. I consider the idea of changing my vote in order not to waste it. @Askthepizzaguy would you vote someone else given the fact that nobody wants to vote for faddy?
    I will vote you or Digitaldude.

    You had issues with DD at one point, correct?

    Lemme iso you again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1159)
    Okay.

    I will give tartina the benefit of the doubt here.

    ##Vote digitaldude
    After isoing tartina you didnt see she suspected me based on misreading my post?
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1153)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#1148)
    Everyone but askpizza think faddy town.
    I start thinking that ask pizza is wolf that is focussing someone randomly to feign interest in wolf finding. I consider the idea of changing my vote in order not to waste it. @Askthepizzaguy would you vote someone else given the fact that nobody wants to vote for faddy?
    I will vote you or Digitaldude.

    You had issues with DD at one point, correct?

    Lemme iso you again.
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#758)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#746)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#631)
    Ok, I read some of the players but not everybody, I've got stuff to do atm.
    I will not read apoc or pizza from the beginning, they look like good players and I won't be able to say if they are scum or townie atm. Plus I will not vote one of them today, I'd like to give them more time.

    distorted I don't like when he says that voting is the only weapon to get infos. Questioning is the most powerful weapon to get infos, not voting itself. He voted quite randomly without questioning. This is pointless imo. I disliked when he sheeped Apoc. Anyways I liked his roro__b reading, and I agree with him when he says that the inactive one became dangerous in late game because they became scapegoats. But voting them on D1 is not useful, if they are inactive they won't pop up if we tag them. I will not vote him today, afterall.

    Elusia/digitaldude I did not like when he said that we can overanalyze him, but at the same time he said that we should not do metagaming. His few posts are empty. Maybe I'll vote him.

    notquitethere He made too many useless questions, maybe to give the impression of being active. Maybe I'll vote him.

    okowoko she looks like quite neutral to me, but saaying "If you have any question ask me" is a scummy thing. What questions should we have if she doesn't participate? I don't know, I'd like to read the opinion of @askpizzaguy and @Apoc and @Faddy on her.

    skeithI have to say that at the beginning he looked very much scum to me. But his latest posts are better. I don't know, I don't feel like votin him atm.

    Probably I'll vote @notquitethere
    Not super thrilled with these reads...
    her read of me doesnt even make sense if you read my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#523)
    Reading first few pages, I don't like meta posting, AT ALL. It is biased against people that played many times, it leads to over overanalysis, it also makes it easier for the mafia $#@!s to string some points together to lynch the townies. No meta posting.


    I believe we should analyze people based only on the game thread. So, I promise not to look at anyones previous games in the championship or on this site. However with all that said you can analyze my previous mafia championship game if you wish.
    xzbit A, I am assuming since you had me and tartina you have some suspicions on tartina? And now you think im townie with latest iso...

    Finally the the last vote on corette, you earlier on said this
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1153)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#1148)
    Everyone but askpizza think faddy town.
    I start thinking that ask pizza is wolf that is focussing someone randomly to feign interest in wolf finding. I consider the idea of changing my vote in order not to waste it. @Askthepizzaguy would you vote someone else given the fact that nobody wants to vote for faddy?
    I will vote you or Digitaldude.

    You had issues with DD at one point, correct?

    Lemme iso you again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1475)
    Note to all:

    Carotte cannot out her own role. She is not present at end of day.

    Put anyone else next to sKeith for the counterwagon.
    then you sniped carotte last second...bruh. My conclusion dum dum lean it'd be hard for mafia to be a dum dum like this.

    Tartina I've already pointed out your hypocrisy but you also seem to want people to trust you a lot, phyze introduced me to this pocketing term... are you pocketing? conclusion possible mafia.

    Apoc I think is townie cause he was switching the votes so many times, it just feels like excited townie behaivor, I mean i've been there.

    Definition

    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#71)
    Whats up guys.
    Looking forward to have a great game
    Lets have fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#79)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#76)
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#71)
    Whats up guys.
    Looking forward to have a great game
    Lets have fun
    What are you the definition of again?
    Lmao actually the name was DefinitionOfAutism until the moderators found it problematic, and they renamed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#86)
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#82)
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#71)
    Whats up guys.
    Looking forward to have a great game
    Lets have fun
    Welcome frand.

    Addicted to mafia, your bio says. Tell me about something that happened that got you hooked.

    As a fellow addict, I love to hear about stuff like that. And it helps me get to know you and understand you better.
    Lmao I didn't realise people actually read the bio, else i would have written more to it
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#94)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#89)
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#86)
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#82)
    Welcome frand.

    Addicted to mafia, your bio says. Tell me about something that happened that got you hooked.

    As a fellow addict, I love to hear about stuff like that. And it helps me get to know you and understand you better.
    Lmao I didn't realise people actually read the bio, else i would have written more to it
    I had to force myself to stop, otherwise who knows how long mine would have been?
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#106)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#103)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#102)
    So maybe I will a happen of being completely clear
    make a habit of being*

    Sry autocorrect updated and is being aggressively wrong these days
    So ur the game manager.
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#239)
    @Askthepizzaguy What is it with u and long posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#269)
    Its funny that there are so many posts but very few actually relate to the game
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#596)
    Ok I just returned and damn there is a lot to read
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#972)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#965)
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#596)
    Ok I just returned and damn there is a lot to read
    @Definition

    Have you managed to read any of it yet?
    Yes most of it
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#985)
    A lot of them have voted pizza and skieth but they feel safe to me
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#988)
    Though phaze seems a little shady...
    Sea of nothing just light observations on players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#1008)
    Safe to me :
    Kieth,PizzaGuy,roro
    Neutral:
    distorted
    IDK:
    Apoc

    It doesn't mean that I am ruling out the others but it's my first time so I am gonna need some time to learn to analyze these people and understand them.

    I have a pretty strong suspicion on phaze tho. He hasn't tried defending himself and couldn't prove y he voted pizzaguy either.

    So

    ##Vote Phaze
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#1196)
    Phaze is trying too badly to be on the good side, i have pretty good feeling he's a baddie and my vote's still gonna stick on phaze.
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#1205)
    I feel the person who doesn't give a damn about him/her getting voted is the townie, and the person trying too bad to stay on the good side is usually the baddie . but again this is just my understanding and it's just what i feel, it's not always the same
    so phyze is a suspect for you but then you say this bolded 1 and then this observation bolded 2, in my iso of phyze he fit the bill of what you consider a townie...well then.

    later on no effort to defend yourself against the wagon but then the wagon evaporates so maybe the right strategy. You end with a vote on carotte. The man suspecting you the most got killed at night. conclusion mafia, or disinterested townie, or disinterested mafia. Probably mafia, we need to press this guy now that distorted is dead.


    The rest I need to look into but these are the players that stood out when the night fell.

  37. ISO #1637
    Thread Analyst digitaldude's Avatar
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    ##Vote Definition

  38. ISO #1638
    Automatic Game Mod Mafia Host's Avatar
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    Season 6, Game 4: Phineas and Ferb [The Mafia Championship] Day 2 Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    1 sKeith mendel (13)
    1 Definition digitaldude (2)
    13 Not voting sothys (1), roro__b (1), Okowoko (0), Faddy (0), tartina (7), Definition (1), Dendrek (1), sKeith (11), notquitethere (6), Phaze (0), Askthepizzaguy (21), Apoc (30), Gravebound (10)

    View Vote History

    End day at majority is enabled. With 15 players alive, it takes 8 votes to reach majority.

    Day 2 ends at 5:00 PM EDT on Thursday, May 23rd, 2019. There are 1558645260000 remaining.

    Requested by digitaldude at 1 days, 9 hours, 15 minutes, 31 seconds remaining.

  39. ISO #1639
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#1634)
    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#1631)
    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#1621)
    @sKeith you evaded the prot or block question
    you evaded telling us who your towncore is
    i obviously do not know who would be targetted
    the question you did not answer was, why did you think mafia would target HIM
    and you can read my post for who i figure might be scum
    since jailing doesnt prevent investigation, there is little drawback to jailing scum on N1

    are you just naturally scummy, or is it because you are scum in this game?
    Sorry, i should have posted more than just a reply to first bit.

    You evaded ALL my questions!

    I sought to prevent the NK.

    I didn't have the same townie read on distorted as others may have, because i was on the receiving end of his constant haggling.
    As I said, i was not the only protector, and others didn't protect distorted either.

    I told you already, NQT was who I towncored, and I thought the obv NK.

    Can you post it again, i forget who you think is scum. And that stuff is old anyhow, we've had two flips since, i need to see evolution.

    Why did you not give me some advise after i role claimed yesterday, 30 minutes before the lynch. Someone said it would be a great role for mafia to have, that made me think about idling.
    In the end, i looked at what roles i would be rolebloclking and make a decision to protect against NK. What role do you think was so worth stopping as opposed to preventing a NK?

    I don't believe I am naturally scummy, but go check out my town game for yourself. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/show...p?t=2057977767 then come back and tell me and then i'll know what to tell others when they ask.
    you might be the only protector, the doctor could not be in the game, or be a mafia
    you did not explain why you thought scum would go for nqt
    you did not explain why you didnt block
    i am not giving advice to PRs and make them predictable
    the post i am referring to was TODAY and has a big red header ffs

    your defense is just as $%#!ty as it was yesterday
    yay for consistency?
    Oh that post, #1534 I found it very hard to parse that for your reads, its was a jumble.



    TownCore
    sKeith
    notquitethere


    Phaze - I lean village, but didn't think wolves would NK due to last minute flip, he'll be in suspicion over that. wo


    all the rest have scum potential in my mind.

    Apoc
    Askthepizzaguy - same reason didn't protect here, but has scum potential.
    Definition
    Dendrek
    digitaldude
    Faddy
    sothys
    mendel
    Okowoko
    roro__b
    Gravebound
    tartina



    I'll get more opinionated as times goes by and i find my rhythm here.

  40. ISO #1640
    Thread Analyst digitaldude's Avatar
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    Now gonna read the rest of the thread.

  41. ISO #1641
    Thread Analyst digitaldude's Avatar
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    @Phaze I pinged phyze and cant edit post, I have two questions for you if you scroll up.

  42. ISO #1642
    I too am curious why @sKeith thought I might be a night target. I can understand him realising I'm town-- but I wasn't under the impression that I was considered so obviously town that the scum team would consider me a firm target. Indeed I was listed as possible scum in a number of player's read lists. So either sKeith is lying about his rationale, or he didn't have a firm grasp on the state of play. If he is scum, this could be a ploy to keep me around and sweet, as I was one of the few players openly questioning why he was being lynched. If he is town, townreading people who think that you are town is very common, and it could be understandable to have the impression that scum think your conf-town pick is as clearly town as you think they are.

    ---

    Apoc, I think you missed my question before: why did you switch off the Definition wagon and why onto sKeith?

  43. ISO #1643
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#1636)
    then you sniped carotte last second...bruh. My conclusion dum dum lean it'd be hard for mafia to be a dum dum like this.
    On the scale of 0 - 10, where 0 is wolfie and 10 is villagery, where does dun dum lean sit?

  44. ISO #1644
    Thread Analyst tartina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#1636)
    Phyze
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#289)
    My reading of previous games in this series suggest that the odds of winning may have a mafia lean. What I would like to see from todays play is at least two bandwagons near the end of the day as last minute shifting before the faction reveal may be instructive
    Like I said prophetic, and the person doing the last minute shifting was you... and Pizzaman! Before you two carotte voted skeith obviously to self perserve, and before that distorted voted skeith both townies not much here. Just before that skeith votes carotte and then quickly followed by notquitethere on carotte, might be something there need to look at notquitethere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#297)
    Rightly or wrongly I am under the impression that an effective scum team normally has one very active spokesperson and the rest lie-low until needed.
    It is my opinion that instead of hunting for the quiet ones that a lot more feedback can be obtained by pressuring active people (at least initially)

    ##Vote Askthepizzaguy
    Agreed, this will change now with day 1 out of the way. in the end though you and pizzaguy voted together seconds apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#305)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#298)
    Quote Originally Posted by Faddy (#277)
    Without going too in depth about this whole set up. I have come to the conclusion that there is no point in softing a role because it isn't clearing. And there is no point softing target because we only get alignment flips. So if someone claims there should be no taking it back. Lies and gambits will destroy town in this set up.
    weird way to answer a player who just professed ignorance of the terminology
    softing = soft-claiming = writing hints
    a hard-claim is naming the role (or the target) directly

    I don't understand what "it isn't clearing" means.

    "Lynch All Liars" is a good policy, but...
    I think that expressing the policy of lynch all liars shuts down some legitimate goodie plays even in this game.
    One being softing a spy type role instead of a late game block/trap role (not such effective if you dont know who is carrying the kill)to "take the hit" for the goodie team
    If I understood this right(note on my forum we use 0% of the terms here) baitng the mafia? yeah normal games but this one...im not sure. Laying down clues for a future claim its something both mafia/townie do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#314)
    Quote Originally Posted by Faddy (#302)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#300)
    "At least" meaning 2 or more
    Sorry I misread that.

    Ok what does that even mean? Before EoD we should have votes on more than 1 person. That makes your post go from weird to pointless.
    You have jumped on me pretty quick, Are you planning on tunneling me bro?
    Preemptive strike to shut down tunneling, is this a mafia move? hmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#319)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#316)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#297)
    Rightly or wrongly I am under the impression that an effective scum team normally has one very active spokesperson and the rest lie-low until needed.
    It is my opinion that instead of hunting for the quiet ones that a lot more feedback can be obtained by pressuring active people (at least initially)

    ##Vote Askthepizzaguy
    I would really love to flip you for that just to prove you wrong
    why are you trying to establish a narrative how an "effective scum team" works when you are pulling that "normally" out of your $%#!? I've seen very effective active teams here.
    To do this it requires a communication overhead. If mafia go about trying to "prove me wrong" it makes the game harder for them to play
    mafia changing strategy based off one post?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#328)
    Quote Originally Posted by Carotte (#315)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#289)
    My reading of previous games in this series suggest that the odds of winning may have a mafia lean. What I would like to see from todays play is at least two bandwagons near the end of the day as last minute shifting before the faction reveal may be instructive
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#297)
    Rightly or wrongly I am under the impression that an effective scum team normally has one very active spokesperson and the rest lie-low until needed.
    It is my opinion that instead of hunting for the quiet ones that a lot more feedback can be obtained by pressuring active people (at least initially)

    ##Vote Askthepizzaguy
    That's a weird approach...

    1) What tells you that Askthepizzaguy is more mafia than Apoc?
    2) I feel like you're trying to emphase the Pizza/Apoc opposition and create a duel between two town... What if the people targeted by the two bandwagons are both town and mafia juste sneak in the bandwagon?
    3)If the "very active spokesperson" dies, how would you recognize the "quiet ones" behind him.. ?

    --

    (I didn't read anything after post #300, coming back after eating)
    1) I would say intuition based on Apoc looking like he was trying to extract information were pizza was being a bit slippery. What I am worried about it that we dismiss this conversation as resolved without going in depth.
    2) The more bandwagons (of at least 3 votes) we have the more chance we have of hitting at least one mafia. It strikes me as odd people don't know what "at least" means
    3) You know how sometimes a player goes from being quiet to more active....
    2. I more agreed with sothys when he said bandwagons will form naturally towards the end which they did. From observing your vote history, voted pizzaman, then faddy to pressure him, then me the moment I subbed in, then few posts later back to pizzaman where you stayed for 1000 posts til you sniped carotte. No effort to make bandwagons despite saying its whats needed to get mafia. Intriguing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#335)
    Fair warning: If you want to do a mass claim today I will lie about my role
    I'm not sure if I missed it but did you ever explain why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#342)
    Is it just me or does anybody else find questions and answers about terminology as have a w/w lean or at least some form of pocketing (buddying up)
    Hmmm I mean I did this but im not mafia bro. I know nothing of terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#343)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#340)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#335)
    Fair warning: If you want to do a mass claim today I will lie about my role
    you want this so badly, have it
    ##Vote Phaze
    Have you read my sig?
    Where sig?
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#345)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravebound (#323)
    For what it's worth, I'm less and less inclined to think Pizza and Apoc are aligned in terms of faction(w/w). If they are, they are both doing a great job creating some faux tension between the both of them.

    @Phaze, @sKeith and @Pizza, with you three having a vote against you, I'd like to hear reasons why these votes should, in your opinion, be retracted. Assuming you would like to live a little longer.
    Yes, assuming....

    Quite happy to be one of the bandwagons if you don't think I am to be trusted if you are quite happy to take responsibility for your vote if/when I am lynched
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#375)
    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#364)
    Trying the multi-ISO - pretty sure I'm not doing it right...

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#289)
    My reading of previous games in this series suggest that the odds of winning may have a mafia lean. What I would like to see from todays play is at least two bandwagons near the end of the day as last minute shifting before the faction reveal may be instructive
    Fair enough, after having read your other posts I guess it's a decent point..

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#297)
    Rightly or wrongly I am under the impression that an effective scum team normally has one very active spokesperson and the rest lie-low until needed.
    It is my opinion that instead of hunting for the quiet ones that a lot more feedback can be obtained by pressuring active people (at least initially)

    ##Vote Askthepizzaguy
    Uhm, an effective one or do you think that's how you should organize? Actually I reacted more on the second part, pressuring the active ones is just... they're doing it themselves? Idk.. I don't get this standpoint at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#314)
    You have jumped on me pretty quick, Are you planning on tunneling me bro?
    This is like the least towny post of the game, did you read through g2? It's exactly how their wolves acted under pressure.... Read through it and up your wolf-game sir .

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#328)
    1) I would say intuition based on Apoc looking like he was trying to extract information were pizza was being a bit slippery. What I am worried about it that we dismiss this conversation as resolved without going in depth.
    2) The more bandwagons (of at least 3 votes) we have the more chance we have of hitting at least one mafia. It strikes me as odd people don't know what "at least" means
    3) You know how sometimes a player goes from being quiet to more active....
    Wait, you actually read through the other games... My bad.

    I love Carottes questions here. Decent answers though, especially the 2) helps me get how you think.. but are we dismissing the discussion? I'm definitely not. I'm saving it, lots of juicy stuff there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#335)
    Fair warning: If you want to do a mass claim today I will lie about my role
    If we mass-claim (not that I see it as a possibility today, and I don't even like the idea, but...) it should be town-consensus, and in that case it's just not good for town, also a nice cover for a mafia. Lots of fakeclaims in that case,really helpful for town with yet another one . Idk man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#342)
    Is it just me or does anybody else find questions and answers about terminology as have a w/w lean or at least some form of pocketing (buddying up)
    I don't, it's just mildly annoying, I keep looking up every other word and how to use this site, ppl should at least try first, but that might just be my personal opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#343)
    Have you read my sig?
    I haven't either ))))))))

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#345)
    Yes, assuming....

    Quite happy to be one of the bandwagons if you don't think I am to be trusted if you are quite happy to take responsibility for your vote if/when I am lynched
    This is also not a nice answer to that kind of question - see above.


    All in all, got some thoughts about several of the active players but this above is enough for me to motivate a vote. Not decided in any way but I'd love some answers instead of that edge-out attitude. Doesn't help us in any way, at least try mate.

    ##Vote Phaze
    So, you are saying that you believe there to be enough suspicion on me that when I flip village you can cover yourself from responsibility for your vote with an "Oh dear!" ? If you have ISOd all my posts you will also see my reasoning for claiming that I will lie if there is a mass-claim (note that I have not as yet lied). I believe that lying can be a legitimate goodie play. The point of this outrageous post is that I judge that mass-claiming is too early. And also to poll out how the other players feel. If I am to be lynched could you make sure that all the players on me are held accountable for their choice? There is likely to be a few opportunistic wolves who were on me early trying to start a single bandwagon.
    I've seen mafia say these things a lot...hmm. Using your logic I would guess you would welcome scrutiny for voting carotte.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#399)
    seeing as there are a few people who are willing to bandwagon me would you allow me to pick the secondary bandwagon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#405)
    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#402)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#399)
    seeing as there are a few people who are willing to bandwagon me would you allow me to pick the secondary bandwagon?
    ##Unvote Phaze


    There you go buddy. I believe
    hmm, why the retraction? freaked out that I might choose you as the secondary bandwagon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#488)
    Now that I am no longer the main person on the choping block I don't think I should be given the opportunity to dictate who the counter train should be
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#605)
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted (#592)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#590)
    BAAAAAA
    @Phaze and @digitaldude wht is your current stance on sKeith?
    If I didn't answer this im not sure what im doing out on this limb

    Wait

    What are you doing?

    not the chainsaw

    RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR


    wot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#459)
    Now that I have crawled halfway across this limb I might as well go further and guess that KeithS is an inactive goodie. The benefit is that if he is lynched and is village I get goodie points, and I intend to be a thorn in the side of anybody voting him D2. The downside is that I will be thought wolf if he is wolf. Given the ratio of wolves to villagers might not be such a risk.
    The most intriguing post considering what happened, you plan to defend him on d2 too? Is that why you voted for carotte?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#454)
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted (#452)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#451)
    I don't see how that proves "limited value" wrong as the aim is to solving the game rather just promote activity
    activity = information. information = how we solve the game.

    so promoting activity is promoting the flow of info. That's how we get scumreads, alignments, all of fit. I dunno I guess we do have a lot of PR roles this game...a lot lol but even then, look at game 1. PR claims cant be trusted late game. I would rather get as much as the dead weight out early rather than having to sift trhoguh it on MYLO ect.
    I have been in too many games where inactive village are easy targets for Mafia (especially D1). Enough to be wary of people suggesting policy lynching them or putting their votes on "easy pickings" for the whole day and going "whoops, they should have defended themselves". It is not enough to pressure people, you need to pressure the right people. This is also why I have shifted my vote (for now, Pizza does not seem to be around for questioning. If you are not getting enough information from someone I suggest telling them so (or pointing it out), and then bookmarking it for follow-up later.
    Tartina part 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#1472)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#1449)
    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#1430)
    is a jailkeepper that $#@! of a role?
    it isnt
    i wouldnt want scum to wield it
    Makes me more sure that sKeith isn't scum
    I got tired of going posts one by one. I can't fcking do it guys the iso thing. anyway the rest of the posts were suspicions on pizza and defending skeith. Consistant with that final vote on corette. Anyway my questions are why do you feel so strongly about skeith? Did you realize the vote on corette would have made it a tie and did you know that a tie will have a random kill and not a time extention(cause thats a rule in every game i've played maybe your community is same)? @Phyze I'm thinking possible mafia.


    thats phyze. Now to pizzaman. You quized me on my solve, I assume solve means strategy. I gave unsatisfactory answer according to you and that made me a suspect, later on you didn't understand the rules of role reveals at death, wouldn't that affect your strategy. I mean you can't approach every game the same. Then this...
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1153)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#1148)
    Everyone but askpizza think faddy town.
    I start thinking that ask pizza is wolf that is focussing someone randomly to feign interest in wolf finding. I consider the idea of changing my vote in order not to waste it. @Askthepizzaguy would you vote someone else given the fact that nobody wants to vote for faddy?
    I will vote you or Digitaldude.

    You had issues with DD at one point, correct?

    Lemme iso you again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1159)
    Okay.

    I will give tartina the benefit of the doubt here.

    ##Vote digitaldude
    After isoing tartina you didnt see she suspected me based on misreading my post?
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1153)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#1148)
    Everyone but askpizza think faddy town.
    I start thinking that ask pizza is wolf that is focussing someone randomly to feign interest in wolf finding. I consider the idea of changing my vote in order not to waste it. @Askthepizzaguy would you vote someone else given the fact that nobody wants to vote for faddy?
    I will vote you or Digitaldude.

    You had issues with DD at one point, correct?

    Lemme iso you again.
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#758)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#746)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#631)
    Ok, I read some of the players but not everybody, I've got stuff to do atm.
    I will not read apoc or pizza from the beginning, they look like good players and I won't be able to say if they are scum or townie atm. Plus I will not vote one of them today, I'd like to give them more time.

    distorted I don't like when he says that voting is the only weapon to get infos. Questioning is the most powerful weapon to get infos, not voting itself. He voted quite randomly without questioning. This is pointless imo. I disliked when he sheeped Apoc. Anyways I liked his roro__b reading, and I agree with him when he says that the inactive one became dangerous in late game because they became scapegoats. But voting them on D1 is not useful, if they are inactive they won't pop up if we tag them. I will not vote him today, afterall.

    Elusia/digitaldude I did not like when he said that we can overanalyze him, but at the same time he said that we should not do metagaming. His few posts are empty. Maybe I'll vote him.

    notquitethere He made too many useless questions, maybe to give the impression of being active. Maybe I'll vote him.

    okowoko she looks like quite neutral to me, but saaying "If you have any question ask me" is a scummy thing. What questions should we have if she doesn't participate? I don't know, I'd like to read the opinion of @askpizzaguy and @Apoc and @Faddy on her.

    skeithI have to say that at the beginning he looked very much scum to me. But his latest posts are better. I don't know, I don't feel like votin him atm.

    Probably I'll vote @notquitethere
    Not super thrilled with these reads...
    her read of me doesnt even make sense if you read my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#523)
    Reading first few pages, I don't like meta posting, AT ALL. It is biased against people that played many times, it leads to over overanalysis, it also makes it easier for the mafia $#@!s to string some points together to lynch the townies. No meta posting.


    I believe we should analyze people based only on the game thread. So, I promise not to look at anyones previous games in the championship or on this site. However with all that said you can analyze my previous mafia championship game if you wish.
    xzbit A, I am assuming since you had me and tartina you have some suspicions on tartina? And now you think im townie with latest iso...

    Finally the the last vote on corette, you earlier on said this
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1153)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#1148)
    Everyone but askpizza think faddy town.
    I start thinking that ask pizza is wolf that is focussing someone randomly to feign interest in wolf finding. I consider the idea of changing my vote in order not to waste it. @Askthepizzaguy would you vote someone else given the fact that nobody wants to vote for faddy?
    I will vote you or Digitaldude.

    You had issues with DD at one point, correct?

    Lemme iso you again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1475)
    Note to all:

    Carotte cannot out her own role. She is not present at end of day.

    Put anyone else next to sKeith for the counterwagon.
    then you sniped carotte last second...bruh. My conclusion dum dum lean it'd be hard for mafia to be a dum dum like this.

    Tartina I've already pointed out your hypocrisy but you also seem to want people to trust you a lot, phyze introduced me to this pocketing term... are you pocketing? conclusion possible mafia.

    Apoc I think is townie cause he was switching the votes so many times, it just feels like excited townie behaivor, I mean i've been there.

    Definition

    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#71)
    Whats up guys.
    Looking forward to have a great game
    Lets have fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#79)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#76)
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#71)
    Whats up guys.
    Looking forward to have a great game
    Lets have fun
    What are you the definition of again?
    Lmao actually the name was DefinitionOfAutism until the moderators found it problematic, and they renamed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#86)
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#82)
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#71)
    Whats up guys.
    Looking forward to have a great game
    Lets have fun
    Welcome frand.

    Addicted to mafia, your bio says. Tell me about something that happened that got you hooked.

    As a fellow addict, I love to hear about stuff like that. And it helps me get to know you and understand you better.
    Lmao I didn't realise people actually read the bio, else i would have written more to it
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#94)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#89)
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#86)
    Lmao I didn't realise people actually read the bio, else i would have written more to it
    I had to force myself to stop, otherwise who knows how long mine would have been?
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#106)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#103)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#102)
    So maybe I will a happen of being completely clear
    make a habit of being*

    Sry autocorrect updated and is being aggressively wrong these days
    So ur the game manager.
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#239)
    @Askthepizzaguy What is it with u and long posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#269)
    Its funny that there are so many posts but very few actually relate to the game
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#596)
    Ok I just returned and damn there is a lot to read
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#972)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#965)
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#596)
    Ok I just returned and damn there is a lot to read
    @Definition

    Have you managed to read any of it yet?
    Yes most of it
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#985)
    A lot of them have voted pizza and skieth but they feel safe to me
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#988)
    Though phaze seems a little shady...
    Sea of nothing just light observations on players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#1008)
    Safe to me :
    Kieth,PizzaGuy,roro
    Neutral:
    distorted
    IDK:
    Apoc

    It doesn't mean that I am ruling out the others but it's my first time so I am gonna need some time to learn to analyze these people and understand them.

    I have a pretty strong suspicion on phaze tho. He hasn't tried defending himself and couldn't prove y he voted pizzaguy either.

    So

    ##Vote Phaze
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#1196)
    Phaze is trying too badly to be on the good side, i have pretty good feeling he's a baddie and my vote's still gonna stick on phaze.
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#1205)
    I feel the person who doesn't give a damn about him/her getting voted is the townie, and the person trying too bad to stay on the good side is usually the baddie . but again this is just my understanding and it's just what i feel, it's not always the same
    so phyze is a suspect for you but then you say this bolded 1 and then this observation bolded 2, in my iso of phyze he fit the bill of what you consider a townie...well then.

    later on no effort to defend yourself against the wagon but then the wagon evaporates so maybe the right strategy. You end with a vote on carotte. The man suspecting you the most got killed at night. conclusion mafia, or disinterested townie, or disinterested mafia. Probably mafia, we need to press this guy now that distorted is dead.


    The rest I need to look into but these are the players that stood out when the night fell.
    no I am not pocketing anyone.
    I don't think I miread you. you told us not to metaread, but you say "metaread me if you want". looks like licking everybody's asses (i don't know if it makes sense in english, btw it is a bit like "pocketing")
    you are pocketing, not me

  45. ISO #1645
    Thread Analyst digitaldude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#1643)
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#1636)
    then you sniped carotte last second...bruh. My conclusion dum dum lean it'd be hard for mafia to be a dum dum like this.
    On the scale of 0 - 10, where 0 is wolfie and 10 is villagery, where does dun dum lean sit?
    Like 7-8.

  46. ISO #1646
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notquitethere (#1580)
    I don't what the significance is in the fact that the three people on the Definition wagon flipped to sKeith in a row.

    @Apoc, @Askthepizzaguy, @Dendrek - what was your reasoning here? Why Keith over Carotte? Why not hold firm on Definition?
    Checking for questions after a short break before ISOs I see I missed this question.

    Definition was not my suspect and sKeith was. It was probably the only time that round other than pushing Faddy or pushing DDude that I put my suspect before someone else's.

    Distorted asked for my support on Definition. I lent him that for pressure, temporarily.

    I was going to actually lynch one of my own top suspects if viable, therefore sKeith over definition.

  47. ISO #1647
    Thread Analyst digitaldude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#1644)
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#1636)
    Phyze
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#289)
    My reading of previous games in this series suggest that the odds of winning may have a mafia lean. What I would like to see from todays play is at least two bandwagons near the end of the day as last minute shifting before the faction reveal may be instructive
    Like I said prophetic, and the person doing the last minute shifting was you... and Pizzaman! Before you two carotte voted skeith obviously to self perserve, and before that distorted voted skeith both townies not much here. Just before that skeith votes carotte and then quickly followed by notquitethere on carotte, might be something there need to look at notquitethere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#297)
    Rightly or wrongly I am under the impression that an effective scum team normally has one very active spokesperson and the rest lie-low until needed.
    It is my opinion that instead of hunting for the quiet ones that a lot more feedback can be obtained by pressuring active people (at least initially)

    ##Vote Askthepizzaguy
    Agreed, this will change now with day 1 out of the way. in the end though you and pizzaguy voted together seconds apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#305)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#298)
    weird way to answer a player who just professed ignorance of the terminology
    softing = soft-claiming = writing hints
    a hard-claim is naming the role (or the target) directly

    I don't understand what "it isn't clearing" means.

    "Lynch All Liars" is a good policy, but...
    I think that expressing the policy of lynch all liars shuts down some legitimate goodie plays even in this game.
    One being softing a spy type role instead of a late game block/trap role (not such effective if you dont know who is carrying the kill)to "take the hit" for the goodie team
    If I understood this right(note on my forum we use 0% of the terms here) baitng the mafia? yeah normal games but this one...im not sure. Laying down clues for a future claim its something both mafia/townie do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#314)
    Quote Originally Posted by Faddy (#302)
    Sorry I misread that.

    Ok what does that even mean? Before EoD we should have votes on more than 1 person. That makes your post go from weird to pointless.
    You have jumped on me pretty quick, Are you planning on tunneling me bro?
    Preemptive strike to shut down tunneling, is this a mafia move? hmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#319)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#316)
    I would really love to flip you for that just to prove you wrong
    why are you trying to establish a narrative how an "effective scum team" works when you are pulling that "normally" out of your $%#!? I've seen very effective active teams here.
    To do this it requires a communication overhead. If mafia go about trying to "prove me wrong" it makes the game harder for them to play
    mafia changing strategy based off one post?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#328)
    Quote Originally Posted by Carotte (#315)
    Rightly or wrongly I am under the impression that an effective scum team normally has one very active spokesperson and the rest lie-low until needed.
    It is my opinion that instead of hunting for the quiet ones that a lot more feedback can be obtained by pressuring active people (at least initially)

    ##Vote Askthepizzaguy

    That's a weird approach...

    1) What tells you that Askthepizzaguy is more mafia than Apoc?
    2) I feel like you're trying to emphase the Pizza/Apoc opposition and create a duel between two town... What if the people targeted by the two bandwagons are both town and mafia juste sneak in the bandwagon?
    3)If the "very active spokesperson" dies, how would you recognize the "quiet ones" behind him.. ?

    --

    (I didn't read anything after post #300, coming back after eating)
    1) I would say intuition based on Apoc looking like he was trying to extract information were pizza was being a bit slippery. What I am worried about it that we dismiss this conversation as resolved without going in depth.
    2) The more bandwagons (of at least 3 votes) we have the more chance we have of hitting at least one mafia. It strikes me as odd people don't know what "at least" means
    3) You know how sometimes a player goes from being quiet to more active....
    2. I more agreed with sothys when he said bandwagons will form naturally towards the end which they did. From observing your vote history, voted pizzaman, then faddy to pressure him, then me the moment I subbed in, then few posts later back to pizzaman where you stayed for 1000 posts til you sniped carotte. No effort to make bandwagons despite saying its whats needed to get mafia. Intriguing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#335)
    Fair warning: If you want to do a mass claim today I will lie about my role
    I'm not sure if I missed it but did you ever explain why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#342)
    Is it just me or does anybody else find questions and answers about terminology as have a w/w lean or at least some form of pocketing (buddying up)
    Hmmm I mean I did this but im not mafia bro. I know nothing of terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#343)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#340)
    you want this so badly, have it
    ##Vote Phaze
    Have you read my sig?
    Where sig?
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#345)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravebound (#323)
    For what it's worth, I'm less and less inclined to think Pizza and Apoc are aligned in terms of faction(w/w). If they are, they are both doing a great job creating some faux tension between the both of them.

    @Phaze, @sKeith and @Pizza, with you three having a vote against you, I'd like to hear reasons why these votes should, in your opinion, be retracted. Assuming you would like to live a little longer.
    Yes, assuming....

    Quite happy to be one of the bandwagons if you don't think I am to be trusted if you are quite happy to take responsibility for your vote if/when I am lynched
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#375)
    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#364)
    Trying the multi-ISO - pretty sure I'm not doing it right...


    Fair enough, after having read your other posts I guess it's a decent point..

    Rightly or wrongly I am under the impression that an effective scum team normally has one very active spokesperson and the rest lie-low until needed.
    It is my opinion that instead of hunting for the quiet ones that a lot more feedback can be obtained by pressuring active people (at least initially)

    ##Vote Askthepizzaguy
    Uhm, an effective one or do you think that's how you should organize? Actually I reacted more on the second part, pressuring the active ones is just... they're doing it themselves? Idk.. I don't get this standpoint at all.

    You have jumped on me pretty quick, Are you planning on tunneling me bro?

    This is like the least towny post of the game, did you read through g2? It's exactly how their wolves acted under pressure.... Read through it and up your wolf-game sir .

    1) I would say intuition based on Apoc looking like he was trying to extract information were pizza was being a bit slippery. What I am worried about it that we dismiss this conversation as resolved without going in depth.
    2) The more bandwagons (of at least 3 votes) we have the more chance we have of hitting at least one mafia. It strikes me as odd people don't know what "at least" means
    3) You know how sometimes a player goes from being quiet to more active....

    Wait, you actually read through the other games... My bad.

    I love Carottes questions here. Decent answers though, especially the 2) helps me get how you think.. but are we dismissing the discussion? I'm definitely not. I'm saving it, lots of juicy stuff there.

    Fair warning: If you want to do a mass claim today I will lie about my role

    If we mass-claim (not that I see it as a possibility today, and I don't even like the idea, but...) it should be town-consensus, and in that case it's just not good for town, also a nice cover for a mafia. Lots of fakeclaims in that case,really helpful for town with yet another one . Idk man.

    Is it just me or does anybody else find questions and answers about terminology as have a w/w lean or at least some form of pocketing (buddying up)
    I don't, it's just mildly annoying, I keep looking up every other word and how to use this site, ppl should at least try first, but that might just be my personal opinion?

    Have you read my sig?
    I haven't either ))))))))

    Yes, assuming....

    Quite happy to be one of the bandwagons if you don't think I am to be trusted if you are quite happy to take responsibility for your vote if/when I am lynched
    This is also not a nice answer to that kind of question - see above.


    All in all, got some thoughts about several of the active players but this above is enough for me to motivate a vote. Not decided in any way but I'd love some answers instead of that edge-out attitude. Doesn't help us in any way, at least try mate.

    ##Vote Phaze
    So, you are saying that you believe there to be enough suspicion on me that when I flip village you can cover yourself from responsibility for your vote with an "Oh dear!" ? If you have ISOd all my posts you will also see my reasoning for claiming that I will lie if there is a mass-claim (note that I have not as yet lied). I believe that lying can be a legitimate goodie play. The point of this outrageous post is that I judge that mass-claiming is too early. And also to poll out how the other players feel. If I am to be lynched could you make sure that all the players on me are held accountable for their choice? There is likely to be a few opportunistic wolves who were on me early trying to start a single bandwagon.
    I've seen mafia say these things a lot...hmm. Using your logic I would guess you would welcome scrutiny for voting carotte.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#399)
    seeing as there are a few people who are willing to bandwagon me would you allow me to pick the secondary bandwagon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#405)
    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#402)
    ##Unvote Phaze


    There you go buddy. I believe
    hmm, why the retraction? freaked out that I might choose you as the secondary bandwagon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#488)
    Now that I am no longer the main person on the choping block I don't think I should be given the opportunity to dictate who the counter train should be
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#605)
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted (#592)
    @Phaze and @digitaldude wht is your current stance on sKeith?
    If I didn't answer this im not sure what im doing out on this limb

    Wait

    What are you doing?

    not the chainsaw

    RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR


    wot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#459)
    Now that I have crawled halfway across this limb I might as well go further and guess that KeithS is an inactive goodie. The benefit is that if he is lynched and is village I get goodie points, and I intend to be a thorn in the side of anybody voting him D2. The downside is that I will be thought wolf if he is wolf. Given the ratio of wolves to villagers might not be such a risk.
    The most intriguing post considering what happened, you plan to defend him on d2 too? Is that why you voted for carotte?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#454)
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted (#452)
    activity = information. information = how we solve the game.

    so promoting activity is promoting the flow of info. That's how we get scumreads, alignments, all of fit. I dunno I guess we do have a lot of PR roles this game...a lot lol but even then, look at game 1. PR claims cant be trusted late game. I would rather get as much as the dead weight out early rather than having to sift trhoguh it on MYLO ect.
    I have been in too many games where inactive village are easy targets for Mafia (especially D1). Enough to be wary of people suggesting policy lynching them or putting their votes on "easy pickings" for the whole day and going "whoops, they should have defended themselves". It is not enough to pressure people, you need to pressure the right people. This is also why I have shifted my vote (for now, Pizza does not seem to be around for questioning. If you are not getting enough information from someone I suggest telling them so (or pointing it out), and then bookmarking it for follow-up later.
    Tartina part 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#1472)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#1449)
    it isnt
    i wouldnt want scum to wield it
    Makes me more sure that sKeith isn't scum
    I got tired of going posts one by one. I can't fcking do it guys the iso thing. anyway the rest of the posts were suspicions on pizza and defending skeith. Consistant with that final vote on corette. Anyway my questions are why do you feel so strongly about skeith? Did you realize the vote on corette would have made it a tie and did you know that a tie will have a random kill and not a time extention(cause thats a rule in every game i've played maybe your community is same)? @Phyze I'm thinking possible mafia.


    thats phyze. Now to pizzaman. You quized me on my solve, I assume solve means strategy. I gave unsatisfactory answer according to you and that made me a suspect, later on you didn't understand the rules of role reveals at death, wouldn't that affect your strategy. I mean you can't approach every game the same. Then this...
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1153)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#1148)
    Everyone but askpizza think faddy town.
    I start thinking that ask pizza is wolf that is focussing someone randomly to feign interest in wolf finding. I consider the idea of changing my vote in order not to waste it. @Askthepizzaguy would you vote someone else given the fact that nobody wants to vote for faddy?
    I will vote you or Digitaldude.

    You had issues with DD at one point, correct?

    Lemme iso you again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1159)
    Okay.

    I will give tartina the benefit of the doubt here.

    ##Vote digitaldude
    After isoing tartina you didnt see she suspected me based on misreading my post?
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1153)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#1148)
    Everyone but askpizza think faddy town.
    I start thinking that ask pizza is wolf that is focussing someone randomly to feign interest in wolf finding. I consider the idea of changing my vote in order not to waste it. @Askthepizzaguy would you vote someone else given the fact that nobody wants to vote for faddy?
    I will vote you or Digitaldude.

    You had issues with DD at one point, correct?

    Lemme iso you again.
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#758)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#746)
    Not super thrilled with these reads...
    her read of me doesnt even make sense if you read my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#523)
    Reading first few pages, I don't like meta posting, AT ALL. It is biased against people that played many times, it leads to over overanalysis, it also makes it easier for the mafia $#@!s to string some points together to lynch the townies. No meta posting.


    I believe we should analyze people based only on the game thread. So, I promise not to look at anyones previous games in the championship or on this site. However with all that said you can analyze my previous mafia championship game if you wish.
    xzbit A, I am assuming since you had me and tartina you have some suspicions on tartina? And now you think im townie with latest iso...

    Finally the the last vote on corette, you earlier on said this
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1153)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#1148)
    Everyone but askpizza think faddy town.
    I start thinking that ask pizza is wolf that is focussing someone randomly to feign interest in wolf finding. I consider the idea of changing my vote in order not to waste it. @Askthepizzaguy would you vote someone else given the fact that nobody wants to vote for faddy?
    I will vote you or Digitaldude.

    You had issues with DD at one point, correct?

    Lemme iso you again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1475)
    Note to all:

    Carotte cannot out her own role. She is not present at end of day.

    Put anyone else next to sKeith for the counterwagon.
    then you sniped carotte last second...bruh. My conclusion dum dum lean it'd be hard for mafia to be a dum dum like this.

    Tartina I've already pointed out your hypocrisy but you also seem to want people to trust you a lot, phyze introduced me to this pocketing term... are you pocketing? conclusion possible mafia.

    Apoc I think is townie cause he was switching the votes so many times, it just feels like excited townie behaivor, I mean i've been there.

    Definition

    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#71)
    Whats up guys.
    Looking forward to have a great game
    Lets have fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#79)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#76)
    What are you the definition of again?
    Lmao actually the name was DefinitionOfAutism until the moderators found it problematic, and they renamed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#86)
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#82)
    Welcome frand.

    Addicted to mafia, your bio says. Tell me about something that happened that got you hooked.

    As a fellow addict, I love to hear about stuff like that. And it helps me get to know you and understand you better.
    Lmao I didn't realise people actually read the bio, else i would have written more to it
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#94)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#89)
    I had to force myself to stop, otherwise who knows how long mine would have been?
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#106)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#103)
    make a habit of being*

    Sry autocorrect updated and is being aggressively wrong these days
    So ur the game manager.
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#239)
    @Askthepizzaguy What is it with u and long posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#269)
    Its funny that there are so many posts but very few actually relate to the game
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#596)
    Ok I just returned and damn there is a lot to read
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#972)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#965)
    @Definition

    Have you managed to read any of it yet?
    Yes most of it
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#985)
    A lot of them have voted pizza and skieth but they feel safe to me
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#988)
    Though phaze seems a little shady...
    Sea of nothing just light observations on players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#1008)
    Safe to me :
    Kieth,PizzaGuy,roro
    Neutral:
    distorted
    IDK:
    Apoc

    It doesn't mean that I am ruling out the others but it's my first time so I am gonna need some time to learn to analyze these people and understand them.

    I have a pretty strong suspicion on phaze tho. He hasn't tried defending himself and couldn't prove y he voted pizzaguy either.

    So

    ##Vote Phaze
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#1196)
    Phaze is trying too badly to be on the good side, i have pretty good feeling he's a baddie and my vote's still gonna stick on phaze.
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#1205)
    I feel the person who doesn't give a damn about him/her getting voted is the townie, and the person trying too bad to stay on the good side is usually the baddie . but again this is just my understanding and it's just what i feel, it's not always the same
    so phyze is a suspect for you but then you say this bolded 1 and then this observation bolded 2, in my iso of phyze he fit the bill of what you consider a townie...well then.

    later on no effort to defend yourself against the wagon but then the wagon evaporates so maybe the right strategy. You end with a vote on carotte. The man suspecting you the most got killed at night. conclusion mafia, or disinterested townie, or disinterested mafia. Probably mafia, we need to press this guy now that distorted is dead.


    The rest I need to look into but these are the players that stood out when the night fell.
    no I am not pocketing anyone.
    I don't think I miread you. you told us not to metaread, but you say "metaread me if you want". looks like licking everybody's asses (i don't know if it makes sense in english, btw it is a bit like "pocketing")
    you are pocketing, not me
    Here is your third explanation, I dont metaread, I play game my way in game thread. I just don't expect people to play the same way I do. dum dum.

  48. ISO #1648
    CEO of Storp Industries Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by notquitethere (#1642)
    Apoc, I think you missed my question before: why did you switch off the Definition wagon and why onto sKeith?
    skeith was at 5 votes for like 25 mins in the final hour

    No changes, maybe from like :15 to :40, iirc

    I just wanted to make some movement, for fellows like yourself to analyze later.

    Definiton was null-scum read. Keith was a hard scumread. I always planned to vote keith

    I even made an earlier post like "this is the correct vote", BEFORE i moved to definition (for science)

  49. ISO #1649
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1648)
    Quote Originally Posted by notquitethere (#1642)
    Apoc, I think you missed my question before: why did you switch off the Definition wagon and why onto sKeith?
    skeith was at 5 votes for like 25 mins in the final hour

    No changes, maybe from like :15 to :40, iirc

    I just wanted to make some movement, for fellows like yourself to analyze later.

    Definiton was null-scum read. Keith was a hard scumread. I always planned to vote keith

    I even made an earlier post like "this is the correct vote", BEFORE i moved to definition (for science)
    Why did you boo my move off gravebound onto pizza?

  50. ISO #1650
    Thread Analyst tartina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#1647)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#1644)
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#1636)
    Phyze
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#289)
    My reading of previous games in this series suggest that the odds of winning may have a mafia lean. What I would like to see from todays play is at least two bandwagons near the end of the day as last minute shifting before the faction reveal may be instructive
    Like I said prophetic, and the person doing the last minute shifting was you... and Pizzaman! Before you two carotte voted skeith obviously to self perserve, and before that distorted voted skeith both townies not much here. Just before that skeith votes carotte and then quickly followed by notquitethere on carotte, might be something there need to look at notquitethere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#297)
    Rightly or wrongly I am under the impression that an effective scum team normally has one very active spokesperson and the rest lie-low until needed.
    It is my opinion that instead of hunting for the quiet ones that a lot more feedback can be obtained by pressuring active people (at least initially)

    ##Vote Askthepizzaguy
    Agreed, this will change now with day 1 out of the way. in the end though you and pizzaguy voted together seconds apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#305)
    I think that expressing the policy of lynch all liars shuts down some legitimate goodie plays even in this game.
    One being softing a spy type role instead of a late game block/trap role (not such effective if you dont know who is carrying the kill)to "take the hit" for the goodie team
    If I understood this right(note on my forum we use 0% of the terms here) baitng the mafia? yeah normal games but this one...im not sure. Laying down clues for a future claim its something both mafia/townie do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#314)
    You have jumped on me pretty quick, Are you planning on tunneling me bro?
    Preemptive strike to shut down tunneling, is this a mafia move? hmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#319)
    To do this it requires a communication overhead. If mafia go about trying to "prove me wrong" it makes the game harder for them to play
    mafia changing strategy based off one post?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#328)
    1) I would say intuition based on Apoc looking like he was trying to extract information were pizza was being a bit slippery. What I am worried about it that we dismiss this conversation as resolved without going in depth.
    2) The more bandwagons (of at least 3 votes) we have the more chance we have of hitting at least one mafia. It strikes me as odd people don't know what "at least" means
    3) You know how sometimes a player goes from being quiet to more active....
    2. I more agreed with sothys when he said bandwagons will form naturally towards the end which they did. From observing your vote history, voted pizzaman, then faddy to pressure him, then me the moment I subbed in, then few posts later back to pizzaman where you stayed for 1000 posts til you sniped carotte. No effort to make bandwagons despite saying its whats needed to get mafia. Intriguing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#335)
    Fair warning: If you want to do a mass claim today I will lie about my role
    I'm not sure if I missed it but did you ever explain why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#342)
    Is it just me or does anybody else find questions and answers about terminology as have a w/w lean or at least some form of pocketing (buddying up)
    Hmmm I mean I did this but im not mafia bro. I know nothing of terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#343)
    Have you read my sig?
    Where sig?
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#345)
    Yes, assuming....

    Quite happy to be one of the bandwagons if you don't think I am to be trusted if you are quite happy to take responsibility for your vote if/when I am lynched
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#375)
    So, you are saying that you believe there to be enough suspicion on me that when I flip village you can cover yourself from responsibility for your vote with an "Oh dear!" ? If you have ISOd all my posts you will also see my reasoning for claiming that I will lie if there is a mass-claim (note that I have not as yet lied). I believe that lying can be a legitimate goodie play. The point of this outrageous post is that I judge that mass-claiming is too early. And also to poll out how the other players feel. If I am to be lynched could you make sure that all the players on me are held accountable for their choice? There is likely to be a few opportunistic wolves who were on me early trying to start a single bandwagon.
    I've seen mafia say these things a lot...hmm. Using your logic I would guess you would welcome scrutiny for voting carotte.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#399)
    seeing as there are a few people who are willing to bandwagon me would you allow me to pick the secondary bandwagon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#405)
    hmm, why the retraction? freaked out that I might choose you as the secondary bandwagon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#488)
    Now that I am no longer the main person on the choping block I don't think I should be given the opportunity to dictate who the counter train should be
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#605)
    If I didn't answer this im not sure what im doing out on this limb

    Wait

    What are you doing?

    not the chainsaw

    RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR


    wot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#459)
    Now that I have crawled halfway across this limb I might as well go further and guess that KeithS is an inactive goodie. The benefit is that if he is lynched and is village I get goodie points, and I intend to be a thorn in the side of anybody voting him D2. The downside is that I will be thought wolf if he is wolf. Given the ratio of wolves to villagers might not be such a risk.
    The most intriguing post considering what happened, you plan to defend him on d2 too? Is that why you voted for carotte?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#454)
    I have been in too many games where inactive village are easy targets for Mafia (especially D1). Enough to be wary of people suggesting policy lynching them or putting their votes on "easy pickings" for the whole day and going "whoops, they should have defended themselves". It is not enough to pressure people, you need to pressure the right people. This is also why I have shifted my vote (for now, Pizza does not seem to be around for questioning. If you are not getting enough information from someone I suggest telling them so (or pointing it out), and then bookmarking it for follow-up later.
    Tartina part 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze (#1472)
    Makes me more sure that sKeith isn't scum
    I got tired of going posts one by one. I can't fcking do it guys the iso thing. anyway the rest of the posts were suspicions on pizza and defending skeith. Consistant with that final vote on corette. Anyway my questions are why do you feel so strongly about skeith? Did you realize the vote on corette would have made it a tie and did you know that a tie will have a random kill and not a time extention(cause thats a rule in every game i've played maybe your community is same)? @Phyze I'm thinking possible mafia.


    thats phyze. Now to pizzaman. You quized me on my solve, I assume solve means strategy. I gave unsatisfactory answer according to you and that made me a suspect, later on you didn't understand the rules of role reveals at death, wouldn't that affect your strategy. I mean you can't approach every game the same. Then this...
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1153)
    I will vote you or Digitaldude.

    You had issues with DD at one point, correct?

    Lemme iso you again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1159)
    Okay.

    I will give tartina the benefit of the doubt here.

    ##Vote digitaldude
    After isoing tartina you didnt see she suspected me based on misreading my post?
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1153)
    I will vote you or Digitaldude.

    You had issues with DD at one point, correct?

    Lemme iso you again.
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#758)
    her read of me doesnt even make sense if you read my post.

    Reading first few pages, I don't like meta posting, AT ALL. It is biased against people that played many times, it leads to over overanalysis, it also makes it easier for the mafia $#@!s to string some points together to lynch the townies. No meta posting.


    I believe we should analyze people based only on the game thread. So, I promise not to look at anyones previous games in the championship or on this site. However with all that said you can analyze my previous mafia championship game if you wish.
    xzbit A, I am assuming since you had me and tartina you have some suspicions on tartina? And now you think im townie with latest iso...

    Finally the the last vote on corette, you earlier on said this
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1153)
    I will vote you or Digitaldude.

    You had issues with DD at one point, correct?

    Lemme iso you again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1475)
    Note to all:

    Carotte cannot out her own role. She is not present at end of day.

    Put anyone else next to sKeith for the counterwagon.
    then you sniped carotte last second...bruh. My conclusion dum dum lean it'd be hard for mafia to be a dum dum like this.

    Tartina I've already pointed out your hypocrisy but you also seem to want people to trust you a lot, phyze introduced me to this pocketing term... are you pocketing? conclusion possible mafia.

    Apoc I think is townie cause he was switching the votes so many times, it just feels like excited townie behaivor, I mean i've been there.

    Definition

    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#71)
    Whats up guys.
    Looking forward to have a great game
    Lets have fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#79)
    Lmao actually the name was DefinitionOfAutism until the moderators found it problematic, and they renamed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#86)
    Lmao I didn't realise people actually read the bio, else i would have written more to it
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#94)
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#106)
    So ur the game manager.
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#239)
    @Askthepizzaguy What is it with u and long posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#269)
    Its funny that there are so many posts but very few actually relate to the game
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#596)
    Ok I just returned and damn there is a lot to read
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#972)
    Yes most of it
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#985)
    A lot of them have voted pizza and skieth but they feel safe to me
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#988)
    Though phaze seems a little shady...
    Sea of nothing just light observations on players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#1008)
    Safe to me :
    Kieth,PizzaGuy,roro
    Neutral:
    distorted
    IDK:
    Apoc

    It doesn't mean that I am ruling out the others but it's my first time so I am gonna need some time to learn to analyze these people and understand them.

    I have a pretty strong suspicion on phaze tho. He hasn't tried defending himself and couldn't prove y he voted pizzaguy either.

    So

    ##Vote Phaze
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#1196)
    Phaze is trying too badly to be on the good side, i have pretty good feeling he's a baddie and my vote's still gonna stick on phaze.
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition (#1205)
    I feel the person who doesn't give a damn about him/her getting voted is the townie, and the person trying too bad to stay on the good side is usually the baddie . but again this is just my understanding and it's just what i feel, it's not always the same
    so phyze is a suspect for you but then you say this bolded 1 and then this observation bolded 2, in my iso of phyze he fit the bill of what you consider a townie...well then.

    later on no effort to defend yourself against the wagon but then the wagon evaporates so maybe the right strategy. You end with a vote on carotte. The man suspecting you the most got killed at night. conclusion mafia, or disinterested townie, or disinterested mafia. Probably mafia, we need to press this guy now that distorted is dead.


    The rest I need to look into but these are the players that stood out when the night fell.
    no I am not pocketing anyone.
    I don't think I miread you. you told us not to metaread, but you say "metaread me if you want". looks like licking everybody's asses (i don't know if it makes sense in english, btw it is a bit like "pocketing")
    you are pocketing, not me
    Here is your third explanation, I dont metaread, I play game my way in game thread. I just don't expect people to play the same way I do. dum dum.
    ok, let's say I trust you on this point.
    But I have to iso you and if I feel that you didn't try to find wolves, I'll probably vote for you.

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Mafia Universe is a community hub for people who enjoy playing the forum variant of Mafia (also known as Werewolf). We offer fully automated Mafia games and a wide variety of customized features crafted to optimize your game experience. We also proudly host the Internet's only database of Mafia/Werewolf communities.

We hope you stick around!
Role of the Day
Vigilante

The Vigilante may kill a player each night.