View Poll Results: Yay or Nay: Wolves should always release wolfchat

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    18 33.96%
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Thread: Rule Idea/Game Standard: Wolves should always release Discord wolfchat

  1. ISO #51
    Soul Reader AndrewGreve's Avatar
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    I am a purist I guess

    Gamespace is gamespace and gameplay is gameplay. If some players have access to a gamespace/gameplay then all players should be able to access that gamespace/gameplay post game.

    Specific to soah 's point. In a game space designed for game play(aka wolf chat), it is fundamentally unfair to withhold communication post game between player slots,. For example, you play a game with player b and me. Player b is your wolf partner. Now, in future games, player b and Soah have a competitive advantage over me at reading each other. Simply because they shared a game space, from a game I was in, making game play decisions, and I didn't get to read it.

    I don't think it is something that MU needs to control, but I think an ideal situation would be the community having the standard expectation that wolf chat is released at end of game and it is stated in sign up.

    The rest of the objections are focused on not wanting to have to worry about being to personal in a game space. I find them rather specious but I understand the sentiment. Honestly if a host said wolf chat is being withheld to protect an individual's privacy on the rare occasion it was necessary I wouldn't mind at all. However, protecting wolf privacy is actually the opposite of competitive fairness.

    Pure game is best game.

    P.S. I think this is something that site culture should dictate. I would just prefer it to become the standard approach.
    Last edited by AndrewGreve; May 24th, 2019 at 10:59 PM.

  2. ISO #52
    Soul Reader AndrewGreve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas (#48)
    imagine actually checking wolf chats post game
    ama

  3. ISO #53
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panther (#49)
    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas (#48)
    imagine actually checking wolf chats post game
    Can I declare “imagine...xyz” dead? Like how jay z killed autotune

    Throw in the “No one: “ memes too
    Hard veto.

  4. ISO #54
    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck (#37)
    As a wolf who loves to hype up chat as well as taunt villagers, especially my friends (all in good fun), I have and always will be for releasing Wolf Chat upon post-game. I’ve never understood the sanctity as ultimately the private chat is just another part of the game, like Mason chats, which are often released anyway without any issue.

    Moreover, Wolf Chat is already sanctioned by the Mafia Universe rulebook, so it’s not like anything that could be said couldn’t also be said in the Game Thread. All angleshooting rules still apply. At least that’s how I run my Wolf Chats when I host. This is still the Internet, if you don’t want what you write to be read then don’t write it.

    I understand not forcing a host to publicize Wolf Chat or any other chat if they choose not to, but I’ll always be skeptical of that host and those wolves. I believe it’s in the site’s best interest to shift the culture to recognizing Wolf Chat as just another arm of the game. @Newcomb explained the difference in culture perfectly, and @Sunbae explained why we should lean this way over the other. I agree with both completely. If you do not want to read Wolf Chat you do not have to. But if you do you should always have that option. That’s my opinion as a frequent wolf and a host.

    Beyond that, if anyone fears reading Wolf Chat because they may be ridiculed for their play, please remember that nothing said in chat cant already be said in-thread. And we need to remember that at the end of the day it’s just a game. We all — myself included, most definitely —- forget at times that this is just a shouting Internet game where most people don’t get most things right most of the time, so instead of taking anything personally, we need to understand werewolf is a process of learning and growing, not winning and losing.

    Anyway, that’s my take. I’ll always be releasing Wolf Chat and the wolves will be made aware of this in the OP.
    This deserves a 5-star rating; a mere "thanks" click is not enough. I agree!

  5. ISO #55
    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunbae (#40)
    It's interesting how cyclical werewolf stuff is. I had this same discussion 5+ years ago on my first forum where "It's a good way to help new players find their footing" went up against "Won't someone think of the wolves who have their secrets exposed". I lost the argument back then (as I am losing it today) but I maintain that if priority #1 is being secretive about strategies so that you can have fractions of a percentage point higher win rate instead of creating a more welcoming environment to help onboard new players to stick around then you're going to end up with a dead forum as the new players don't stick around long enough to replace those that quit due to burnout/time constraints. I don't think it's a coincidence that my old forum that used to run 1-3 games a week is now a place where a game happens once every few months and mostly as a nostalgia kick mash.
    The majority of good points in this thread argue in favor of Phihter's position, yet 2/3 of the community is against it. *shrug*

    Even ideas can be mislynched, apparently.

  6. ISO #56
    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#43)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunbae (#40)
    It's interesting how cyclical werewolf stuff is. I had this same discussion 5+ years ago on my first forum where "It's a good way to help new players find their footing" went up against "Won't someone think of the wolves who have their secrets exposed". I lost the argument back then (as I am losing it today) but I maintain that if priority #1 is being secretive about strategies so that you can have fractions of a percentage point higher win rate instead of creating a more welcoming environment to help onboard new players to stick around then you're going to end up with a dead forum as the new players don't stick around long enough to replace those that quit due to burnout/time constraints. I don't think it's a coincidence that my old forum that used to run 1-3 games a week is now a place where a game happens once every few months and mostly as a nostalgia kick mash.
    That's a creative interpretation of 2+2's history. The hostile environment there surely had more to do with all of the toxic users than any wolfchat policies.
    Why is that environment more hostile than this one? Is it something about poker players? Genuinely curious.

  7. ISO #57
    Nuke Possum Springs Ampharos's Avatar Administrator
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    I don't really feel strongly on a personal level about whether or not wolfchat should be released - it's not something I typically read as a villager except to vanity search anyways. Call me lazy or whatever.

    That said, I DO think it should be made clear to the wolves at the start of the game whether or not wolfchat will be released, and then whatever they're told should be upheld. Wolves shouldn't be under the false impression that the contents of wolfchat are/aren't going to be released only to find out otherwise halfway through the game.

    And yeah, I'm uncomfortable legislating a sitewide mandatory release. Feels much more like a host-discretion sort of deal.
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  8. ISO #58
    Everyone's mom dyachei's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#57)
    I don't really feel strongly on a personal level about whether or not wolfchat should be released - it's not something I typically read as a villager except to vanity search anyways. Call me lazy or whatever.

    That said, I DO think it should be made clear to the wolves at the start of the game whether or not wolfchat will be released, and then whatever they're told should be upheld. Wolves shouldn't be under the false impression that the contents of wolfchat are/aren't going to be released only to find out otherwise halfway through the game.

    And yeah, I'm uncomfortable legislating a sitewide mandatory release. Feels much more like a host-discretion sort of deal.
    I'm even ok with wolves being told they can have a choice at the end of the game or whatever. Otherwise feel similar to you
    Yes I am offcially more annoying than navi. Misson accomplished. - Fable

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  9. ISO #59
    Spams too much mor_tilt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#47)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunbae (#40)
    I don't think it's a coincidence that my old forum that used to run 1-3 games a week is now a place where a game happens once every few months and mostly as a nostalgia kick mash.
    Pretty sure a combination of Modbot, and POGs lack of control of general 2+2 forum settings are the main reasons for the downturn.

    I mean, a lot of that player base isnin this thread rn
    pretty sure MU is the main reason albeit on a fairly long list for why pog ww is dead

  10. ISO #60
    Lost Weasley Brother Allundberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dyachei (#58)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#57)
    I don't really feel strongly on a personal level about whether or not wolfchat should be released - it's not something I typically read as a villager except to vanity search anyways. Call me lazy or whatever.

    That said, I DO think it should be made clear to the wolves at the start of the game whether or not wolfchat will be released, and then whatever they're told should be upheld. Wolves shouldn't be under the false impression that the contents of wolfchat are/aren't going to be released only to find out otherwise halfway through the game.

    And yeah, I'm uncomfortable legislating a sitewide mandatory release. Feels much more like a host-discretion sort of deal.
    I'm even ok with wolves being told they can have a choice at the end of the game or whatever. Otherwise feel similar to you
    The problem with that (the last part) from my pov is that the other ppl signing up doesnt know if wolfchst is realesed. Its basically no improvement to the situation now

  11. ISO #61
    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allundberg (#60)
    Quote Originally Posted by dyachei (#58)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#57)
    I don't really feel strongly on a personal level about whether or not wolfchat should be released - it's not something I typically read as a villager except to vanity search anyways. Call me lazy or whatever.

    That said, I DO think it should be made clear to the wolves at the start of the game whether or not wolfchat will be released, and then whatever they're told should be upheld. Wolves shouldn't be under the false impression that the contents of wolfchat are/aren't going to be released only to find out otherwise halfway through the game.

    And yeah, I'm uncomfortable legislating a sitewide mandatory release. Feels much more like a host-discretion sort of deal.
    I'm even ok with wolves being told they can have a choice at the end of the game or whatever. Otherwise feel similar to you
    The problem with that (the last part) from my pov is that the other ppl signing up doesnt know if wolfchst is realesed. Its basically no improvement to the situation now
    good point, didnt think of that

  12. ISO #62
    Everyone's mom dyachei's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allundberg (#60)
    Quote Originally Posted by dyachei (#58)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#57)
    I don't really feel strongly on a personal level about whether or not wolfchat should be released - it's not something I typically read as a villager except to vanity search anyways. Call me lazy or whatever.

    That said, I DO think it should be made clear to the wolves at the start of the game whether or not wolfchat will be released, and then whatever they're told should be upheld. Wolves shouldn't be under the false impression that the contents of wolfchat are/aren't going to be released only to find out otherwise halfway through the game.

    And yeah, I'm uncomfortable legislating a sitewide mandatory release. Feels much more like a host-discretion sort of deal.
    I'm even ok with wolves being told they can have a choice at the end of the game or whatever. Otherwise feel similar to you
    The problem with that (the last part) from my pov is that the other ppl signing up doesnt know if wolfchst is realesed. Its basically no improvement to the situation now
    yeah but if something crazy did happen in wolf chat, I think wolves should have a chance to keep it private if people agree.

    I don't like publicly shaming people because I want to see wolf chat
    Yes I am offcially more annoying than navi. Misson accomplished. - Fable

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  13. ISO #63
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    My personal preference is for the decision to be left to the wolves, just in general.

    If you're specifically mandating release that should be indicated, same if you're mandating no release.

    But very often the desire to not release has to do with something that actually happened during the game. There is no reason a choice needs to be made before the game.

    The key reason to notify people is that if you're taking away the choice, people need to know that, and in what way.
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  14. ISO #64
    tokophobe lute's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Where I'm at with this is basically just Zapp's post word for word. A right to privacy is a big part of the MU ethos and it makes sense that this extends to private chats. I don't believe access to these chats to be an inalienable right, but instead a privilege. The default state is that wolf chats remain private, even if the majority of them do not remain private, in the same vein that most people get more than a 0 on a test, but 0 is still the default state of your score. Reversing the default state to reflect majority, or plurality, or minority or one stooge or whatever is just an unnecessary stripping of freedoms.

    and I was gonna type more but I'm being whisked away to eat breakfast I'll finish this later or maybe I'll forget see ya

    Yeah so as I was saying, I think even if 100% of wolf chats were released by choice for a year straight it'd still be silly to make their release mandatory. It's a needless restriction.

    also frankly I find the idea of people hiding their super secret wolf strats and thoughts by keeping wolfchat private is kinda ludicrous in a "I am hardcore WW player" sort of way but hey I won't scoff at your reasoning for keeping your privates private it's your right
    Last edited by lute; May 28th, 2019 at 09:02 AM.
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  15. ISO #65
    GOAT Tier Fable's Avatar
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    This thread reminded me that in my first wolf game ever "wolf chat" was done entirely through PMs lol.
    “Monsters are tragic beings; they are born too tall, too strong, too heavy, they are not evil by choice. That is their tragedy.”
    ― Ishiro Honda

  16. ISO #66
    tokophobe lute's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fable (#65)
    This thread reminded me that in my first wolf game ever "wolf chat" was done entirely through PMs lol.
    a lot of forums do that tbh
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  17. ISO #67
    Face the Music Virtuoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#66)
    Quote Originally Posted by Fable (#65)
    This thread reminded me that in my first wolf game ever "wolf chat" was done entirely through PMs lol.
    a lot of forums do that tbh
    This is how we did it on DDO. The moderator created a group PM and we did it that way.
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