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Thread: Season 6, Game 5: The Legacy of the SANDS [The Mafia Championship]

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    Soul Reader Chelsea's Avatar
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    Let's move away from mech talk because it has nothing of importance right now and it's not even close to relevant any person can have any role. So to be blunt, you should base most things off of reads because it doesn't matter. Claiming is also pretty meh because of what we stated above.

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    Thread Analyst The Mighty Quinn's Avatar
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    No Chelsea, normally when I get voted I consider whether the person's stated reason for voting me makes sense from a Town perspective. But then I'm used to people voting for stated reasons.

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    Soul Reader Chelsea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fdas (#50)
    Well, this just looks like a situation of the first guy who pops their head up gets smacked
    I most admit I wasn't expecting this kind of reaction, but I do find it an interesting and better one then I was wanting.

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    Thread Analyst grapefruit21's Avatar
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    Quinn are you town? I want you to be town.


    Anyway back in a few hours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fdas (#45)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#43)
    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#32)
    I don't really like to talk mechanics too much on day one cause you cant really read into that but considering this setup allows any role to be scum I think focusing on the setup will likely hurt town (or at least me) cause there's no way to know what roles scum are in control of and therefore no one's results can be trusted and there's just wayyyy too much paranoia in it.
    Of course results can be trusted. If someone claims, say, N2 cop on day three and no one counterclaims, then they must be the cop. And scum are highly unlikely to fake claim, since that just trades a wolf for a now-vanilla Townie. Of course there is the tiny possibility that the scum might just happen to claim the one role that doesn't exist, but it would be a huge risk for them to try it.

    Other than investigative roles, though, I don't know that it helps us to try to figure out what role people have. I mean, if we establish that Joe is the odd night RB, that still tells us nothing about his alignment.

    Of course, though, anyone who seems like they are going to be lynched should claim and give all info.
    If the N2 cop died N1, then they wouldn't be around to cc. Roles are not revealed upon death, only alignment.
    This is a pretty flimsy argument. The only way that it matters for claims that we only get alignment flips is if the scum are informed of the role(s) of the dead. If they aren't, then running that gambit would be the pinnacle of folly.

    The only way the scum would be informed and thus can run a fake claim gambit is if they happened to get one of the two roles in the game which could provide them the necessary information.


    So ... you are doubtcasting the idea of people claiming based upon a low percentage "whatif" so I have to ask myself ... what possibility space best explains you doing that?

    I suggest that the most likely possibility space is the one where you are more informed than you should be. If you know that scum have a role cop or the JOAT with role cop available, then you know they can potentially infiltrate such a claim plan without being caught easily and thus you know that in the reality we're in, you should score points by pointing out the danger. If we're in the world where you are scum and your team has the ability to do that, you would be prone to overestimating the threat of such a scenario when trying to seem townie.


    ((** Note: I had a few sangrias this evening so if something doesn't make sense just ask. **))

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    Soul Reader Chelsea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#52)
    No Chelsea, normally when I get voted I consider whether the person's stated reason for voting me makes sense from a Town perspective. But then I'm used to people voting for stated reasons.
    I see, if that was the case do you think I'm scum? Or did you just place the vote down because of reaction. I'm pretty sure my post made it blatantly clear that I was saying I disliked your opening post. It felt very over eager and forced to me. Of course, you could be eager because this is champs but hey it's an early bite why not take it.

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    Thread Analyst funnier6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#33)
    Yeah, I think once you get used to it you will agree this is the best Mafia playing interface ever.

    funnier, are you actually going to read like 64 other games to get reads on the players in this game? I'm a big meta guy too, because my home site is basically a dozen or so people who have been playing continuously against each other for 10 years.

    But if you like: Here is the link to our forum's dungeon, where old Mafia games are stored. We do each day and night as a separate thread so I can't link directly to each game.

    Ones of interest:

    Laundry Mafia (starts top of page 2 of dungeon): This is my most recent game of note, and really IMO my first good scum game ever. It ends when I fakeclaim Cop with a bad check on a townie. Said townie, who I consider quite a good player, was SO sure I was Town that he insisted there must be some previously unnoticed redirector role in the game!

    Hotel of Heroes V, on page one, was the last game I played in, an unremarkable turn as Vanilla Town.

    Artifact Mafia, on page seven, is probably my best Town game.

    This is my Champs game from last year, as Town on the wrong end of a sweep.

    My all time record is 9-12. 2-7 as Vanilla Town, 2-4 as scum...but 5-1 as Town power role! So we should be in good shape here.
    I cant tell if the first sentence is sarcasm lol.

    And no, but I thought I could at least skim through and get a general idea and go back and check specific things as the game goes on.

    @Litten funnygurl told me to say hi for her.

    Is there a way to pull up save drafts cause it keeps saying draft saved but it ate my last one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by grapefruit21 (#54)
    Quinn are you town? I want you to be town.


    Anyway back in a few hours.
    I am town, friend.

    Now that you mentioned it (in your earlier post), I understand a lot of the people here know each other from mafiascum, so it will be interesting to see how that goes. I guess it's possible that meta could play a big role in this game after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drixx (#55)
    Quote Originally Posted by fdas (#45)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#43)
    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#32)
    I don't really like to talk mechanics too much on day one cause you cant really read into that but considering this setup allows any role to be scum I think focusing on the setup will likely hurt town (or at least me) cause there's no way to know what roles scum are in control of and therefore no one's results can be trusted and there's just wayyyy too much paranoia in it.
    Of course results can be trusted. If someone claims, say, N2 cop on day three and no one counterclaims, then they must be the cop. And scum are highly unlikely to fake claim, since that just trades a wolf for a now-vanilla Townie. Of course there is the tiny possibility that the scum might just happen to claim the one role that doesn't exist, but it would be a huge risk for them to try it.

    Other than investigative roles, though, I don't know that it helps us to try to figure out what role people have. I mean, if we establish that Joe is the odd night RB, that still tells us nothing about his alignment.

    Of course, though, anyone who seems like they are going to be lynched should claim and give all info.
    If the N2 cop died N1, then they wouldn't be around to cc. Roles are not revealed upon death, only alignment.
    This is a pretty flimsy argument. The only way that it matters for claims that we only get alignment flips is if the scum are informed of the role(s) of the dead. If they aren't, then running that gambit would be the pinnacle of folly.

    The only way the scum would be informed and thus can run a fake claim gambit is if they happened to get one of the two roles in the game which could provide them the necessary information.


    So ... you are doubtcasting the idea of people claiming based upon a low percentage "whatif" so I have to ask myself ... what possibility space best explains you doing that?

    I suggest that the most likely possibility space is the one where you are more informed than you should be. If you know that scum have a role cop or the JOAT with role cop available, then you know they can potentially infiltrate such a claim plan without being caught easily and thus you know that in the reality we're in, you should score points by pointing out the danger. If we're in the world where you are scum and your team has the ability to do that, you would be prone to overestimating the threat of such a scenario when trying to seem townie.


    ((** Note: I had a few sangrias this evening so if something doesn't make sense just ask. **))
    Even if scum have all the rolecop powers, they can only identify like 4 or 5 roles. They can't possibly identify the one role which isn't in the game.

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    Thread Analyst Drixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#49)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#43)
    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#32)
    I don't really like to talk mechanics too much on day one cause you cant really read into that but considering this setup allows any role to be scum I think focusing on the setup will likely hurt town (or at least me) cause there's no way to know what roles scum are in control of and therefore no one's results can be trusted and there's just wayyyy too much paranoia in it.
    Of course results can be trusted. If someone claims, say, N2 cop on day three and no one counterclaims, then they must be the cop. And scum are highly unlikely to fake claim, since that just trades a wolf for a now-vanilla Townie. Of course there is the tiny possibility that the scum might just happen to claim the one role that doesn't exist, but it would be a huge risk for them to try it.

    Other than investigative roles, though, I don't know that it helps us to try to figure out what role people have. I mean, if we establish that Joe is the odd night RB, that still tells us nothing about his alignment.

    Of course, though, anyone who seems like they are going to be lynched should claim and give all info.
    The point I'm trying to make is that mafia can be cop or doctor or literally anything in the game. They don't have to fake a single thing cause they were literally handed the role. You get that right?

    Also I think the forum just ate my last post. >.<
    That's a good point; however, the point of having claims made is the information they provide. Once there's enough of that information, the links between pieces of information leave little room for scum to hide. That makes it especially dangerous for them to make any early claims as later info can contradict.


    For the moment, I'm personally still thinking through how a claim plan actually would work out in practice with this setup. I'm slightly biased towards the side of a good claim plan since having additional information generally favors town and this particular setup will result in people being able to claim info without sacrificing future EV ...

    But ... still need to think about it some more. Please feel free to outline counter thoughts.

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    Thread Analyst fdas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drixx (#60)
    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#49)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#43)
    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#32)
    I don't really like to talk mechanics too much on day one cause you cant really read into that but considering this setup allows any role to be scum I think focusing on the setup will likely hurt town (or at least me) cause there's no way to know what roles scum are in control of and therefore no one's results can be trusted and there's just wayyyy too much paranoia in it.
    Of course results can be trusted. If someone claims, say, N2 cop on day three and no one counterclaims, then they must be the cop. And scum are highly unlikely to fake claim, since that just trades a wolf for a now-vanilla Townie. Of course there is the tiny possibility that the scum might just happen to claim the one role that doesn't exist, but it would be a huge risk for them to try it.

    Other than investigative roles, though, I don't know that it helps us to try to figure out what role people have. I mean, if we establish that Joe is the odd night RB, that still tells us nothing about his alignment.

    Of course, though, anyone who seems like they are going to be lynched should claim and give all info.
    The point I'm trying to make is that mafia can be cop or doctor or literally anything in the game. They don't have to fake a single thing cause they were literally handed the role. You get that right?

    Also I think the forum just ate my last post. >.<
    That's a good point; however, the point of having claims made is the information they provide. Once there's enough of that information, the links between pieces of information leave little room for scum to hide. That makes it especially dangerous for them to make any early claims as later info can contradict.


    For the moment, I'm personally still thinking through how a claim plan actually would work out in practice with this setup. I'm slightly biased towards the side of a good claim plan since having additional information generally favors town and this particular setup will result in people being able to claim info without sacrificing future EV ...

    But ... still need to think about it some more. Please feel free to outline counter thoughts.
    If we wait too long to roleclaim, it becomes harder to figure stuff out because there will be too many missing roles from dead people.

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    Thread Analyst The Mighty Quinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#56)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#52)
    No Chelsea, normally when I get voted I consider whether the person's stated reason for voting me makes sense from a Town perspective. But then I'm used to people voting for stated reasons.
    I see, if that was the case do you think I'm scum? Or did you just place the vote down because of reaction. I'm pretty sure my post made it blatantly clear that I was saying I disliked your opening post. It felt very over eager and forced to me. Of course, you could be eager because this is champs but hey it's an early bite why not take it.
    I have no idea if you're scum or not, although you're certainly not making a good impression. It's funny that someone whose first post is a naked vote is accusing someone elseof being "overeager and forced".

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#43)
    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#32)
    I don't really like to talk mechanics too much on day one cause you cant really read into that but considering this setup allows any role to be scum I think focusing on the setup will likely hurt town (or at least me) cause there's no way to know what roles scum are in control of and therefore no one's results can be trusted and there's just wayyyy too much paranoia in it.
    Of course results can be trusted. If someone claims, say, N2 cop on day three and no one counterclaims, then they must be the cop. And scum are highly unlikely to fake claim, since that just trades a wolf for a now-vanilla Townie. Of course there is the tiny possibility that the scum might just happen to claim the one role that doesn't exist, but it would be a huge risk for them to try it.

    Other than investigative roles, though, I don't know that it helps us to try to figure out what role people have. I mean, if we establish that Joe is the odd night RB, that still tells us nothing about his alignment.

    Of course, though, anyone who seems like they are going to be lynched should claim and give all info.
    This forum literally eats my posts every time I scroll up.

    Sorry, I must've not read the whole thing the first time. But I still don't see why you think cops should be trusted because mafia wouldn't fake claim cop when mafia could've rolled cop and be truthfully claiming it just like anyone else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#62)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#56)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#52)
    No Chelsea, normally when I get voted I consider whether the person's stated reason for voting me makes sense from a Town perspective. But then I'm used to people voting for stated reasons.
    I see, if that was the case do you think I'm scum? Or did you just place the vote down because of reaction. I'm pretty sure my post made it blatantly clear that I was saying I disliked your opening post. It felt very over eager and forced to me. Of course, you could be eager because this is champs but hey it's an early bite why not take it.
    I have no idea if you're scum or not, although you're certainly not making a good impression. It's funny that someone whose first post is a naked vote is accusing someone elseof being "overeager and forced".
    The vote wasn't naked though it was a vote with reason behind it. Your second point... touche~

    Hey Drixx I know you like set up talk as much as the next person, but for now let's not okay? What do you think about Quinny here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#59)
    Quote Originally Posted by Drixx (#55)
    Quote Originally Posted by fdas (#45)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#43)
    Of course results can be trusted. If someone claims, say, N2 cop on day three and no one counterclaims, then they must be the cop. And scum are highly unlikely to fake claim, since that just trades a wolf for a now-vanilla Townie. Of course there is the tiny possibility that the scum might just happen to claim the one role that doesn't exist, but it would be a huge risk for them to try it.

    Other than investigative roles, though, I don't know that it helps us to try to figure out what role people have. I mean, if we establish that Joe is the odd night RB, that still tells us nothing about his alignment.

    Of course, though, anyone who seems like they are going to be lynched should claim and give all info.
    If the N2 cop died N1, then they wouldn't be around to cc. Roles are not revealed upon death, only alignment.
    This is a pretty flimsy argument. The only way that it matters for claims that we only get alignment flips is if the scum are informed of the role(s) of the dead. If they aren't, then running that gambit would be the pinnacle of folly.

    The only way the scum would be informed and thus can run a fake claim gambit is if they happened to get one of the two roles in the game which could provide them the necessary information.


    So ... you are doubtcasting the idea of people claiming based upon a low percentage "whatif" so I have to ask myself ... what possibility space best explains you doing that?

    I suggest that the most likely possibility space is the one where you are more informed than you should be. If you know that scum have a role cop or the JOAT with role cop available, then you know they can potentially infiltrate such a claim plan without being caught easily and thus you know that in the reality we're in, you should score points by pointing out the danger. If we're in the world where you are scum and your team has the ability to do that, you would be prone to overestimating the threat of such a scenario when trying to seem townie.


    ((** Note: I had a few sangrias this evening so if something doesn't make sense just ask. **))
    Even if scum have all the rolecop powers, they can only identify like 4 or 5 roles. They can't possibly identify the one role which isn't in the game.
    You're right. But they could role cop the person they kill night one and thus know when and what to claim that wouldn't be counter claimed.

    But they can only do that if they can role cop.

    Thus my o.0 at fdas jumping straight to the edge case that could possibly undermine a claim strategy.

    It requires the scum to have a role block role, which is a low probability. It also requires that ability to be used and snag a role which can then be leveraged into a fake claim which will actually do more than trade 1:1, which also is fairly low probability (although good scum players can make mansions out of match sticks).

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    Thread Analyst Drixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#64)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#62)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#56)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#52)
    No Chelsea, normally when I get voted I consider whether the person's stated reason for voting me makes sense from a Town perspective. But then I'm used to people voting for stated reasons.
    I see, if that was the case do you think I'm scum? Or did you just place the vote down because of reaction. I'm pretty sure my post made it blatantly clear that I was saying I disliked your opening post. It felt very over eager and forced to me. Of course, you could be eager because this is champs but hey it's an early bite why not take it.
    I have no idea if you're scum or not, although you're certainly not making a good impression. It's funny that someone whose first post is a naked vote is accusing someone elseof being "overeager and forced".
    The vote wasn't naked though it was a vote with reason behind it. Your second point... touche~

    Hey Drixx I know you like set up talk as much as the next person, but for now let's not okay? What do you think about Quinny here.
    I mean ... I like setup talk because it lets me get an idea of how people are thinking (which is super valuable), plus rational.Drixx likes to work from known info.

    TMQ is all over the place. The tone of irritation in #56 reads pretty genuine though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fdas (#50)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#47)
    Quote Originally Posted by Choxorn (#31)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#27)
    I believe my introduction post was the most towny and you should tr me for it ty
    Really? That sounds like something a wolf would say.
    Maybe I'm a wolf then~

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#37)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#28)
    Speaking of introduction posts
    ##Vote The Mighty Quinn
    K.

    ##Vote Chelsea

    Why?
    Interesting that your first reaction was to vote me. Is this something you normally do when you get voted? If that's the case can you show me?

    Quote Originally Posted by EricKline (#42)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#37)
    K.

    ##Vote Chelsea

    Why?
    Yeah I'm with this guy, I don't like no random voting

    ##Vote Chelsea

    (Is that how to vote?)
    Yes this is how you vote. I'll save you for later though.
    Well, this just looks like a situation of the first guy who pops their head up gets smacked.
    Maybe. I'm kind of surprised there isn't more votes than this yet, I'm too used to games with tons of totally random votes being thrown around in the early hours of day 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#63)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#43)
    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#32)
    I don't really like to talk mechanics too much on day one cause you cant really read into that but considering this setup allows any role to be scum I think focusing on the setup will likely hurt town (or at least me) cause there's no way to know what roles scum are in control of and therefore no one's results can be trusted and there's just wayyyy too much paranoia in it.
    Of course results can be trusted. If someone claims, say, N2 cop on day three and no one counterclaims, then they must be the cop. And scum are highly unlikely to fake claim, since that just trades a wolf for a now-vanilla Townie. Of course there is the tiny possibility that the scum might just happen to claim the one role that doesn't exist, but it would be a huge risk for them to try it.

    Other than investigative roles, though, I don't know that it helps us to try to figure out what role people have. I mean, if we establish that Joe is the odd night RB, that still tells us nothing about his alignment.

    Of course, though, anyone who seems like they are going to be lynched should claim and give all info.
    This forum literally eats my posts every time I scroll up.

    Sorry, I must've not read the whole thing the first time. But I still don't see why you think cops should be trusted because mafia wouldn't fake claim cop when mafia could've rolled cop and be truthfully claiming it just like anyone else?
    Uhh, because I'm not too bright?

    You're right, cop reads can't really be trusted at all until the cop dies, which probably means they won't die early. I suppose n3 cop could check claimed n2 cop; the chance of both roles being scum is only about 5%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grapefruit21 (#41)
    ##Vote vonflare

    Sup peeps! Really hyped for this game.

    Anyway do any of you each other? I don't recognize any names I don't think.
    I know no one in this game. </3
    Quote Originally Posted by EricKline (#42)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#37)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#28)
    Speaking of introduction posts
    ##Vote The Mighty Quinn
    K.

    ##Vote Chelsea

    Why?
    Yeah I'm with this guy, I don't like no random voting

    ##Vote Chelsea

    (Is that how to vote?)
    Where I come from RVS is a traditional and memey way to start a game so I'm not surprised to see it here. Though I do wonder what on earth about an obviously baseless and memey vote on the first page says about alignment? Immediately OMGUSing looks much weirder to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by fdas (#44)
    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#39)
    Quote Originally Posted by fdas (#36)
    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#32)
    I... have never seen a forum that didn't have pages. O-O
    My forum used to have pages but now it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#32)
    Kay so forum software is beating me up, how the heck does one quote individual pieces of someone's post?
    You can do a normal quote and then edit out the stuff you don't need.
    So how did you just do it? You didn't delete cause there's the rest of it right there just the way I was trying to do it Also how are there no thinking emotes on this forum?? You'd think there'd be a hundred! >.<
    Click quote. Then, select all and copy and paste. Now I have two massive quotes. Then I go into each and remove the text I don't need, only leaving the quote tags on the beginning and end. Now I end up with two quotes with a bit of text in each.
    I wanna go homeThanks for the help. </3
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#51)
    Let's move away from mech talk because it has nothing of importance right now and it's not even close to relevant any person can have any role. So to be blunt, you should base most things off of reads because it doesn't matter. Claiming is also pretty meh because of what we stated above.
    I don't really know why you say to move away from mech talk when all you've been doing is joking around as though that's a better idea?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#53)
    Quote Originally Posted by fdas (#50)
    Well, this just looks like a situation of the first guy who pops their head up gets smacked
    I most admit I wasn't expecting this kind of reaction, but I do find it an interesting and better one then I was wanting.
    What were you going for if you don't mind my asking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drixx (#66)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#64)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#62)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#56)
    I see, if that was the case do you think I'm scum? Or did you just place the vote down because of reaction. I'm pretty sure my post made it blatantly clear that I was saying I disliked your opening post. It felt very over eager and forced to me. Of course, you could be eager because this is champs but hey it's an early bite why not take it.
    I have no idea if you're scum or not, although you're certainly not making a good impression. It's funny that someone whose first post is a naked vote is accusing someone elseof being "overeager and forced".
    The vote wasn't naked though it was a vote with reason behind it. Your second point... touche~

    Hey Drixx I know you like set up talk as much as the next person, but for now let's not okay? What do you think about Quinny here.
    I mean ... I like setup talk because it lets me get an idea of how people are thinking (which is super valuable), plus rational.Drixx likes to work from known info.

    TMQ is all over the place. The tone of irritation in #56 reads pretty genuine though.
    The set up is wide in the open and unless we're mass claiming d1 (and I don't think we are) I feel right now, it's not that important so I'm trying to shut down that line. I'm bias because I always feel mech talk can be scummy because it's easy filler and anyone can really do it. For now I think we should try and dig into other peoples heads in a more productive manner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#18)
    So...Choxorn lost a bet?
    This is my first post. What about it seemed overeager and forced?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#23)
    Hello? Anyone out there?

    I've never played a setup quite like this one before; I think it looks great but it will be interesting to figure it out on the fly in the Championships. At least the ruleset will give us something to talk about; that's usually what we do for most of Day One on my site.

    My initial take is that the powers that work on n1 and n2 should claim the morning after using their power. Claiming immediately will both give town information and force scum to fake a counterclaim right then or forever hold their scummy little tongues. Otherwise nobody should claim until d5 (UNLESS of course they have information which will identify scum), because if everyone whose last power was n3 claims d4, it will identify the players who still have powers to use. Actually n3 Cop should claim d4, of course.
    oh I meant this one whoops~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#70)
    Quote Originally Posted by Drixx (#66)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#64)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#62)
    I have no idea if you're scum or not, although you're certainly not making a good impression. It's funny that someone whose first post is a naked vote is accusing someone elseof being "overeager and forced".
    The vote wasn't naked though it was a vote with reason behind it. Your second point... touche~

    Hey Drixx I know you like set up talk as much as the next person, but for now let's not okay? What do you think about Quinny here.
    I mean ... I like setup talk because it lets me get an idea of how people are thinking (which is super valuable), plus rational.Drixx likes to work from known info.

    TMQ is all over the place. The tone of irritation in #56 reads pretty genuine though.
    The set up is wide in the open and unless we're mass claiming d1 (and I don't think we are) I feel right now, it's not that important so I'm trying to shut down that line. I'm bias because I always feel mech talk can be scummy because it's easy filler and anyone can really do it. For now I think we should try and dig into other peoples heads in a more productive manner.
    Agree to disagree I guess. I basically don't give anyone positive read for mech/setup talk. It's probably less likely now that it's so overt but I've found that being informed sometimes has an influence on how scum think and that can end up coming out in setup spec posts. Posting with unusual weight on improbable things or even with certainty where none should be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grapefruit21 (#41)
    ##Vote vonflare

    Sup peeps! Really hyped for this game.

    Anyway do any of you each other? I don't recognize any names I don't think.
    Wait a second...I didn't even notice at first grapefruit did the same thing! What's up with that vote, grapefruit??

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    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#69)
    Where I come from RVS is a traditional and memey way to start a game so I'm not surprised to see it here. Though I do wonder what on earth about an obviously baseless and memey vote on the first page says about alignment? Immediately OMGUSing looks much weirder to me.
    Yeah, same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#72)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#23)
    Hello? Anyone out there?

    I've never played a setup quite like this one before; I think it looks great but it will be interesting to figure it out on the fly in the Championships. At least the ruleset will give us something to talk about; that's usually what we do for most of Day One on my site.

    My initial take is that the powers that work on n1 and n2 should claim the morning after using their power. Claiming immediately will both give town information and force scum to fake a counterclaim right then or forever hold their scummy little tongues. Otherwise nobody should claim until d5 (UNLESS of course they have information which will identify scum), because if everyone whose last power was n3 claims d4, it will identify the players who still have powers to use. Actually n3 Cop should claim d4, of course.
    oh I meant this one whoops~
    OK so...same question.

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    Ah grapefruit said he was leaving for a while...speaking of which...

    I love the 72/24 schedule because I often have to vanish for long periods of time for RL reasons. I have to go to sleep soon and will be back tomorrow morning US time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#59)
    Quote Originally Posted by Drixx (#55)
    Quote Originally Posted by fdas (#45)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#43)
    Of course results can be trusted. If someone claims, say, N2 cop on day three and no one counterclaims, then they must be the cop. And scum are highly unlikely to fake claim, since that just trades a wolf for a now-vanilla Townie. Of course there is the tiny possibility that the scum might just happen to claim the one role that doesn't exist, but it would be a huge risk for them to try it.

    Other than investigative roles, though, I don't know that it helps us to try to figure out what role people have. I mean, if we establish that Joe is the odd night RB, that still tells us nothing about his alignment.

    Of course, though, anyone who seems like they are going to be lynched should claim and give all info.
    If the N2 cop died N1, then they wouldn't be around to cc. Roles are not revealed upon death, only alignment.
    This is a pretty flimsy argument. The only way that it matters for claims that we only get alignment flips is if the scum are informed of the role(s) of the dead. If they aren't, then running that gambit would be the pinnacle of folly.

    The only way the scum would be informed and thus can run a fake claim gambit is if they happened to get one of the two roles in the game which could provide them the necessary information.


    So ... you are doubtcasting the idea of people claiming based upon a low percentage "whatif" so I have to ask myself ... what possibility space best explains you doing that?

    I suggest that the most likely possibility space is the one where you are more informed than you should be. If you know that scum have a role cop or the JOAT with role cop available, then you know they can potentially infiltrate such a claim plan without being caught easily and thus you know that in the reality we're in, you should score points by pointing out the danger. If we're in the world where you are scum and your team has the ability to do that, you would be prone to overestimating the threat of such a scenario when trying to seem townie.


    ((** Note: I had a few sangrias this evening so if something doesn't make sense just ask. **))
    Even if scum have all the rolecop powers, they can only identify like 4 or 5 roles. They can't possibly identify the one role which isn't in the game.
    I thought scum were informed of what role isn't in the game?
    Quote Originally Posted by Drixx (#60)
    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#49)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#43)
    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#32)
    I don't really like to talk mechanics too much on day one cause you cant really read into that but considering this setup allows any role to be scum I think focusing on the setup will likely hurt town (or at least me) cause there's no way to know what roles scum are in control of and therefore no one's results can be trusted and there's just wayyyy too much paranoia in it.
    Of course results can be trusted. If someone claims, say, N2 cop on day three and no one counterclaims, then they must be the cop. And scum are highly unlikely to fake claim, since that just trades a wolf for a now-vanilla Townie. Of course there is the tiny possibility that the scum might just happen to claim the one role that doesn't exist, but it would be a huge risk for them to try it.

    Other than investigative roles, though, I don't know that it helps us to try to figure out what role people have. I mean, if we establish that Joe is the odd night RB, that still tells us nothing about his alignment.

    Of course, though, anyone who seems like they are going to be lynched should claim and give all info.
    The point I'm trying to make is that mafia can be cop or doctor or literally anything in the game. They don't have to fake a single thing cause they were literally handed the role. You get that right?

    Also I think the forum just ate my last post. >.<
    That's a good point; however, the point of having claims made is the information they provide. Once there's enough of that information, the links between pieces of information leave little room for scum to hide. That makes it especially dangerous for them to make any early claims as later info can contradict.


    For the moment, I'm personally still thinking through how a claim plan actually would work out in practice with this setup. I'm slightly biased towards the side of a good claim plan since having additional information generally favors town and this particular setup will result in people being able to claim info without sacrificing future EV ...

    But ... still need to think about it some more. Please feel free to outline counter thoughts.
    I mean, thats great if that works for you, but I prefer the old tried and true "lynch people because they're scummy" route. I don't think there's any sure fire way to piece things together when you don't know when mafia might conveniently lie and cover something up or use their actions to throw shade or just a million small things to throw a wrench into solving that way and it just gives me too much of a headache.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#64)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#62)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#56)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#52)
    No Chelsea, normally when I get voted I consider whether the person's stated reason for voting me makes sense from a Town perspective. But then I'm used to people voting for stated reasons.
    I see, if that was the case do you think I'm scum? Or did you just place the vote down because of reaction. I'm pretty sure my post made it blatantly clear that I was saying I disliked your opening post. It felt very over eager and forced to me. Of course, you could be eager because this is champs but hey it's an early bite why not take it.
    I have no idea if you're scum or not, although you're certainly not making a good impression. It's funny that someone whose first post is a naked vote is accusing someone elseof being "overeager and forced".
    The vote wasn't naked though it was a vote with reason behind it. Your second point... touche~

    Hey Drixx I know you like set up talk as much as the next person, but for now let's not okay? What do you think about Quinny here.
    You gave the impression you were voting for a reaction earlier but now you're giving me the impression you really thought his entrance was scummy? Which one is it?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#68)
    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#63)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#43)
    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#32)
    I don't really like to talk mechanics too much on day one cause you cant really read into that but considering this setup allows any role to be scum I think focusing on the setup will likely hurt town (or at least me) cause there's no way to know what roles scum are in control of and therefore no one's results can be trusted and there's just wayyyy too much paranoia in it.
    Of course results can be trusted. If someone claims, say, N2 cop on day three and no one counterclaims, then they must be the cop. And scum are highly unlikely to fake claim, since that just trades a wolf for a now-vanilla Townie. Of course there is the tiny possibility that the scum might just happen to claim the one role that doesn't exist, but it would be a huge risk for them to try it.

    Other than investigative roles, though, I don't know that it helps us to try to figure out what role people have. I mean, if we establish that Joe is the odd night RB, that still tells us nothing about his alignment.

    Of course, though, anyone who seems like they are going to be lynched should claim and give all info.
    This forum literally eats my posts every time I scroll up.

    Sorry, I must've not read the whole thing the first time. But I still don't see why you think cops should be trusted because mafia wouldn't fake claim cop when mafia could've rolled cop and be truthfully claiming it just like anyone else?
    Uhh, because I'm not too bright?

    You're right, cop reads can't really be trusted at all until the cop dies, which probably means they won't die early. I suppose n3 cop could check claimed n2 cop; the chance of both roles being scum is only about 5%.
    I actually think that sounds like a cool idea though naturally we'd do that and it'd be the N3 cop thats scum. It'd be great to know that a cop was town though. Only problem is we wouldn't know until day four and that only makes a difference if they both make it that far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Choxorn (#75)
    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#69)
    Where I come from RVS is a traditional and memey way to start a game so I'm not surprised to see it here. Though I do wonder what on earth about an obviously baseless and memey vote on the first page says about alignment? Immediately OMGUSing looks much weirder to me.
    Yeah, same.
    She said it wasn't baseless, though. I guess I'll have to wait until tomorrow to hear what about that post she thought was "overeager and forced".

    And as far as the OMGUS, no vote in the first hour of a 72 hour cycle needs to be taken seriously so why the hell not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#77)
    Ah grapefruit said he was leaving for a while...speaking of which...

    I love the 72/24 schedule because I often have to vanish for long periods of time for RL reasons. I have to go to sleep soon and will be back tomorrow morning US time.
    Sameeeee. Especially in this kind of game cause I'm gonna be spending loads of time just trying to catch up and fighting with the software. Also is it me or are the reply boxes super tiny? I guess I'll just have to make myself click go advanced every time.

    Anyway I've gotta got to bed so I can get up at five and go to work so I'll be back in like sixteen hours with a tall glass of chocolate milk and a million posts to give thoughts on.kill me please >.<

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#79)
    Quote Originally Posted by Choxorn (#75)
    Quote Originally Posted by funnier6 (#69)
    Where I come from RVS is a traditional and memey way to start a game so I'm not surprised to see it here. Though I do wonder what on earth about an obviously baseless and memey vote on the first page says about alignment? Immediately OMGUSing looks much weirder to me.
    Yeah, same.
    She said it wasn't baseless, though. I guess I'll have to wait until tomorrow to hear what about that post she thought was "overeager and forced".

    And as far as the OMGUS, no vote in the first hour of a 72 hour cycle needs to be taken seriously so why the hell not?
    Well since you sounded serious when you made it it seemed strangely defensive, as real OMGUS votes tend to be.

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    Oh yes, I see scum are told which role isn't in the game so...never mind...

    Anyone from my home board reading this is now dying of laughter because I'm always the guy complaining about people not reading the rules...

    anyway goodnight

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#37)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#28)
    Speaking of introduction posts
    ##Vote The Mighty Quinn
    K.

    ##Vote Chelsea

    Why?
    Well, we have now both said we're going to bed...I suspect this is not the last time this will happen.

    You think that sounds especially "serious"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#83)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#37)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelsea (#28)
    Speaking of introduction posts
    ##Vote The Mighty Quinn
    K.

    ##Vote Chelsea

    Why?
    Well, we have now both said we're going to bed...I suspect this is not the last time this will happen.

    You think that sounds especially "serious"?
    I have this unfortunate habit of saying I'm going to bed and then clicking refresh.

    Yeah, voting her back and just saying "why" came off as pretty serious to me. Cant really interpret that as a joke.

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    I mean...RVS is a thing and I find it annoying but not alignment indicative. But she did allude to something in my opening post she didn't like, so I wanted to find out how she would react to being questioned about that, and the vote was just a little dramatic emphasis. It wasn't a "serious" vote in the sense that I was thinking "This person is clearly >rand to be scum and I want to lynch them now".

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    Okay, before I go to bed id like to do a quick rundown of the day from my point of view.

    There has been a lot of talk about RVS, which surprises me. I was expecting everyone on here to be relatively well versed in typical game strategy. How I see it, RVS doesn't really work if its obviously RVS. The point is to draw out conversation and conflict. If its obviously RVS, no one would respond. The only reason its somewhat did its job here is because it was done in such a non traditional way.

    I'm seeing personality roles clearly come into play. I've seen the nice guy, the antagonist, the questioner, the level headed guy. I have yet to see anyone step up as a leader. Normally id like to see someone step up and try and steer conversation, but that has been absent, likely due to us getting to know each other. Maybe we need an ice breaker (we should all play mafia!/s)

    I greatly dislike this forum's host program. Quoting is difficult, mobile use is hard (especially sense everyone seems bent on quoting huge amounts and only talking in large portions. Plus its blocked on my school computers so I will have to be caring around with me a separate computer for the next few days. Expect large gaps from me, with dumps when I get on.

    Everyone seems to be talking in large chunks, rather then small banter. Again, likely due to our familiarity with the cite and others. I hope to see this go down. Foolish town will take large slabs of text as a sign of other town. Also, not sure why everyone is quoting so heavily, but I guess that's a result of how the forum is set up.

    I already have my personal excel sheet going with data on each player, sus lists, and a mafia algorithm i've bene working on. I don't plan on releasing my data till late game, so look out for that.

    I do have a few heads on my list already, but going to save heavy accusations for the morning. For now, My votes stands.

    Goodnight all, I look forward to a great game.

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    Season 6, Game 5: The Legacy of the SANDS [The Mafia Championship] Day 1 Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    2 Chelsea The Mighty Quinn (21), EricKline (7)
    1 funnier6 Drixx (8)
    1 The Mighty Quinn Chelsea (11)
    1 vonflare grapefruit21 (2)
    12 Not voting Morrigan (0), QTesseract (0), Vault_Dweller (0), vonflare (0), Litten (0), Laurentus (0), Choxorn (8), fdas (7), Keith (0), Bobberino (0), Lady Lambdadelta (0), funnier6 (15)


    View Vote History

    Day 1 ends at 9:00 PM EDT on Thursday, May 30th, 2019. There are 1559264460000 remaining.

    Posted at 2 days, 18 hours, 0 minutes, 59 seconds remaining.

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    @Quinn it's RVS. And vonflare had the coolest name/homesite combo. Do you prefer town or scum?

    @Chelsea what about you?

    Anyway random thoughts: fdas, funnier, and drixx feel a bit busy. As for claims I think a plan is not helpful. Trust people to claim when relevant and correct to. We're all here for a reason.

    EK coming in and telling calling out town for want to trust wordy posts in a wordy post of his own is the sort of lack of self awareness I like. Feels like town confidence to me. Will have to wait for these accusations to say more but like that entrance.

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    ##Vote Choxorn

    My dude is fencesitting like a $#@!, posting contentless information to skate along, calling it strange that there's not as many votes as you would expect, without setting a vote himself. He calls one of Maria's posts scummy in a non-commital manner, so he could back off it like a joke if needed. You know the concept of Schrodinger's Douchebag? Where people can say stuff and then if people call them out on it they can pretend it was a joke? Feels a lot like he's just hanging on a similar edge except instead of saying mildly offensive nonsense he's pushing on townies without dirtying his hands.

    Also, it's likely one of the two votes already on Maria/Claire/Chelsea is scum. Especially with how Chox is pivoting around the wagon. I'm more confident about Chox, and I'd rather not do associative before he flips but there's separate reasons to suspec them as well. For my money, I think Eric is the more likely of the two voters to be scum in this scenario, just from the way they voted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EricKline (#86)
    Okay, before I go to bed id like to do a quick rundown of the day from my point of view.

    There has been a lot of talk about RVS, which surprises me. I was expecting everyone on here to be relatively well versed in typical game strategy. How I see it, RVS doesn't really work if its obviously RVS. The point is to draw out conversation and conflict. If its obviously RVS, no one would respond. The only reason its somewhat did its job here is because it was done in such a non traditional way.

    I'm seeing personality roles clearly come into play. I've seen the nice guy, the antagonist, the questioner, the level headed guy. I have yet to see anyone step up as a leader. Normally id like to see someone step up and try and steer conversation, but that has been absent, likely due to us getting to know each other. Maybe we need an ice breaker (we should all play mafia!/s)

    I greatly dislike this forum's host program. Quoting is difficult, mobile use is hard (especially sense everyone seems bent on quoting huge amounts and only talking in large portions. Plus its blocked on my school computers so I will have to be caring around with me a separate computer for the next few days. Expect large gaps from me, with dumps when I get on.

    Everyone seems to be talking in large chunks, rather then small banter. Again, likely due to our familiarity with the cite and others. I hope to see this go down. Foolish town will take large slabs of text as a sign of other town. Also, not sure why everyone is quoting so heavily, but I guess that's a result of how the forum is set up.

    I already have my personal excel sheet going with data on each player, sus lists, and a mafia algorithm i've bene working on. I don't plan on releasing my data till late game, so look out for that.

    I do have a few heads on my list already, but going to save heavy accusations for the morning. For now, My votes stands.

    Goodnight all, I look forward to a great game.
    Yeah this post makes me twitch a bit but I dunno why.

    Actually it just hit me.

    Dude is talking like he knows he'll be alive in the late game, confidence you won't be lynched is one thing but if he really thinks he caught scum in Chelsea, wouldn't be expect he'd die sooner than later?

    This almost feels like a perspective slip, and it's tiny so I'm not willing to wager on it over the genuine desire I have to watch Chox swing, but my dude is seriously spending multiple paragraphs talking about nothing, barely justifying his vote, and seems to have the mental perspective that he knows he'll be alive in the late game.

    He's probably scum.

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    "I already have my personal excel sheet going with data on each player, sus lists, and a mafia algorithm i've bene working on. I don't plan on releasing my data till late game, so look out for that."

    This is the line I'm referring to when I speak on his assumptions of being alive until "late game", ftr. Incase people don't wanna read a whole block of nothing words from Eric.

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    Huh... I totally skipped that paragraph in my read of that post. I guess I was too distracted by the "large slabs" bit while making a wall. Still at a town lean but I get why it pinged you.

    Chox, I'll have to reread. I have zero impression of him so far.

    Can you talk more to me about why you think there is scum on Chelsea? With only two votes there I just don't think I can draw any conclusions.

  43. Bookmark ISO #93
    Thread Analyst Lady Lambdadelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grapefruit21 (#92)
    Huh... I totally skipped that paragraph in my read of that post. I guess I was too distracted by the "large slabs" bit while making a wall. Still at a town lean but I get why it pinged you.

    Chox, I'll have to reread. I have zero impression of him so far.

    Can you talk more to me about why you think there is scum on Chelsea? With only two votes there I just don't think I can draw any conclusions.
    Specifically I think the way Chelsea entered is likely to draw votes from both sides of the aisle, townies who genuinely feel weirded out by her and scum who want to capitalize on that weird sensation. In general, scum want to have justification for their votes, they don't wanna be caught with pants down if they can help it, so an easy concept in a game where most of us haven't played with each other is as scum is to vote on someone who enters like Chelsea does. Abrasive, forward, confident. Especially if someone else already has.

    Additionally, if Chox is doing what I think he's doing and fencesitting next to the wagon, the odds one of the two of them are scum with him increase dramatically, but since I want to avoid connective tells when we don't even have ONE dead person flipped, let alone the multiples that are usually needed for that kind of stuff, I'm more keeping that as a "this is a feeling I have" and not letting it drive my suspicion.

    Essentially, as a result, I'm far more confident Chox is scum, despite all the reasons given above, simply because I could be wrong about there being scum on Chelsea's wagon. I've already admitted that she's the kind of player who will draw this heat, and let's be real, she'll draw this heat regardless of her own alignment too. Though I hesitate to think she'd allow people to bus her in a game where a jury decides if she moves on...

    Put all that together I feel like Chelsea is town, and Eric and Chox are scum, and I'm most confident on Chox as scum. You should join me. I have cake.

  44. Bookmark ISO #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lambdadelta (#89)
    ##Vote Choxorn

    My dude is fencesitting like a $#@!, posting contentless information to skate along, calling it strange that there's not as many votes as you would expect, without setting a vote himself. He calls one of Maria's posts scummy in a non-commital manner, so he could back off it like a joke if needed. You know the concept of Schrodinger's Douchebag? Where people can say stuff and then if people call them out on it they can pretend it was a joke? Feels a lot like he's just hanging on a similar edge except instead of saying mildly offensive nonsense he's pushing on townies without dirtying his hands.
    You're really reaching here. I'll admit my posts are mostly devoid of content. I made nearly all of them within an hour of the start of the game, how much content are you expecting me to have at this point?

    My read of Chelsea wasn't at all serious. It was more or less an RVS vote without the actual vote.

  45. Bookmark ISO #95
    Thread Analyst Lady Lambdadelta's Avatar
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    That feels a bit disingenuous given you posted after the 2 vote wagon on Chelsea was made and even quoted the post chain in which people discussed it. Your only commentary on that was "there's not as many votes as I expected" while not placing a vote.

    Are you telling me there was nothing more to comment on? That you had nothing to add to that? That your vote couldn't be doing something somewhere?

    and most importantly, are you telling me that your excuse for not having content was that it was too early in the game, when others around you found sufficient things to comment on and you even commented on that?

    No, that doesn't follow. You had a lot to engage with in that interaction and you OPTED OUT.

    and it's more clear to me now than ever that you ACTIVELY and KNOWINGLY opted out. The Fencesitting accusation is exactly accurate and warranted. Your deflection in this case only condemns you further, if I'm being honest.

  46. Bookmark ISO #96
    Thread Analyst Lady Lambdadelta's Avatar
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    For those who want it in lay terms: His defense holds no water and his reaction to my pressure is bad. It's time for the noose.

  47. Bookmark ISO #97
    Wants It More Litten's Avatar
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    Hi everyone, so here’s what’s going to happen with me. I’m going to be inactive till 12:00pm today because I’m finishing up finals for my classes. After that I can pretty much no life all day here because I have nothing else to do.

  48. Bookmark ISO #98
    Thread Analyst Vault_Dweller's Avatar
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    I'm here and just caught up.

    I have played a Champs practice game with fdas as well as his backup, chess24 (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...-Practice-Game). That is the only players I know here.

    Some mech talk; in said practice game, a start of D3 mass claim was made. This is also apparently pretty standard for this setup.

  49. Bookmark ISO #99
    Thread Analyst Vault_Dweller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn (#82)
    Oh yes, I see scum are told which role isn't in the game so...never mind...

    Anyone from my home board reading this is now dying of laughter because I'm always the guy complaining about people not reading the rules...

    anyway goodnight
    Can we derp clear Quinn for this?

  50. Bookmark ISO #100
    My commentary wasn't just "There's not as many votes as I expected," though I guess I didn't do a good job of getting my point across. Fdas wondered if Chelsea was getting votes just for being the first person to place a vote, I thought that might be it, and it might just be that different communities have different metas for how the early game should go with regards to RVS. Most of the games I've played in the past had much more RVS at the start than this. My lack of a random vote is because I don't think there's necessarily much of a point in RVS'ing other than for some early-game fun, and from reading the thread, it looked to me like most people didn't really want to have an RVS stage.

    My lack of a non-random vote is because it's a few hours into day 1, there's less than 100 posts in the thread, half the players haven't even shown up yet, and I don't have any feelings on Chelsea or the Chelsea-wagon strong enough to place a serious vote on anybody. As I said, my original read was a joke, Chelsea's vote looked random, and the reaction to it didn't really jump out to me the way it has to you.

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