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Thread: Season 6, Game 7: The People's Court [The Mafia Championship]

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    Thread Analyst Master Radishes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sun Fan (#5345)
    I was never more humbled by a game of mafia in my life than I was after my season 3 wildcard game. See more talent. You'll see just how good some of these players are. It gave me a $#@!load of perspective on much more than mafia; but my opinion of myself just like with regard to my intelligence.
    Another thing - the quality of competition now is intense. When I played S2 there were fewer communities & reps, and a greater statistical chance of advancing (2 spots per game went straight to the Finals). I won my qualifying game by out-playing some players who were clearly average, strange, or even downright poor. Not that I didn't earn it as well through my finding of the scum (hi @Apoc !) but of the 13 players in my game I think only half had a serious chance of advancing in retrospect. Then I hit the Finals, feeling full of myself, and found myself way out of my league.

    The players in S2 were just as good as now, but there were fewer of them at that top level. I think I'm alright, but if I played now, I don't think I'd do better than maybe a WC spot.

  2. ISO #5352
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Radishes (#5351)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Sun Fan (#5345)
    I was never more humbled by a game of mafia in my life than I was after my season 3 wildcard game. See more talent. You'll see just how good some of these players are. It gave me a $#@!load of perspective on much more than mafia; but my opinion of myself just like with regard to my intelligence.
    Another thing - the quality of competition now is intense. When I played S2 there were fewer communities & reps, and a greater statistical chance of advancing (2 spots per game went straight to the Finals). I won my qualifying game by out-playing some players who were clearly average, strange, or even downright poor. Not that I didn't earn it as well through my finding of the scum (hi @Apoc !) but of the 13 players in my game I think only half had a serious chance of advancing in retrospect. Then I hit the Finals, feeling full of myself, and found myself way out of my league.

    The players in S2 were just as good as now, but there were fewer of them at that top level. I think I'm alright, but if I played now, I don't think I'd do better than maybe a WC spot.
    Hi Radishes!




    I still blame chezi

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    Thread Analyst Master Radishes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#5352)
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Radishes (#5351)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Sun Fan (#5345)
    I was never more humbled by a game of mafia in my life than I was after my season 3 wildcard game. See more talent. You'll see just how good some of these players are. It gave me a $#@!load of perspective on much more than mafia; but my opinion of myself just like with regard to my intelligence.
    Another thing - the quality of competition now is intense. When I played S2 there were fewer communities & reps, and a greater statistical chance of advancing (2 spots per game went straight to the Finals). I won my qualifying game by out-playing some players who were clearly average, strange, or even downright poor. Not that I didn't earn it as well through my finding of the scum (hi @Apoc !) but of the 13 players in my game I think only half had a serious chance of advancing in retrospect. Then I hit the Finals, feeling full of myself, and found myself way out of my league.

    The players in S2 were just as good as now, but there were fewer of them at that top level. I think I'm alright, but if I played now, I don't think I'd do better than maybe a WC spot.
    Hi Radishes!




    I still blame chezi
    Sure, but I had to navigate Majiffy and Captain Luffy. That was harder than figuring out who the scum were!

  4. ISO #5354
    Season 5 Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Just to clarify, MU's own rep last was not mislynched on D1 last year and advanced to wildcards anyway (I know this because I *was* MU's rep last year - and my backup rep who ended up getting in a game did not do this either). The person you're thinking of had a regular presence on MU at the time, but they were not MU's rep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#5354)
    Just to clarify, MU's own rep last was not mislynched on D1 last year and advanced to wildcards anyway (I know this because I *was* MU's rep last year - and my backup rep who ended up getting in a game did not do this either). The person you're thinking of had a regular presence on MU at the time, but they were not MU's rep.
    my b

  6. ISO #5356
    I think Radishes makes a strong point about how wolves are inherently biased against in voting that is supposed to emphasize subjective skill over results. That's because the job of wolves is to bring it home, and sometimes doing that requires you doing something that isn't neccessarily "skillful." For example, if you see that town is trying to lynch all the top posters, the most "skilled" thing for a wolf to do would be to fake being a new player and just post the minimum every time. Is that something that anyone here would push forward? No. And yet it is the maximum thing the wolf could do in that situation to advance their win condition.

    There are countless more examples and situations of this that have occured, and will occur in the future. The truth is that wolfing is much more results oriented than villaging. Even in a village loss, you can successfully try and note some things that are "skillful"- like having good reads, making yourself town, controlling the thread, explaining points well, being perceptive, etc, the list goes on and on. Even in a wolf WIN, what exactly can you point to that is "skilled" besides the dubious metric of 'towncred acquired." That's why villagers often get voted in the top 4 for wolf wins, while the ONLY time a wolf advances in a town win in the vast majority of cases is if they bussed.

    And just to add on to that, one of the things I've discussed with people time and time again, on the forums, on discord, and in DMS, is that repeatability is the the key to how they base their votes or should base it. Statements like "who would you want on your team in the future", or statements such as these:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sun Fan (#5345)

    If we played this setup 100 more times with the same players (And I'm putting MisterZ in Radishes slot for this example), do you think you'd be the MVP in more of those game than anyone else? That's the question that I think you need to ask yourself, and its how I determined who I would vote for in this game. Obviously, we can't play 100 games before voting, but that would be the best way to determine who is the best player out of the 17 of us. I think that all of the names I listed would win """MVP""" more than you. Carson and inkarnit would probably come up close to your total as well, in my head.
    ... they dominate the narrative.

    Yeah. This is a fine mentality to have, is pushed upon by the champs organizes, yet is, again, biased against wolves. That's because what wolves need to do to win has NOTHING to do with repeatability. If someone wants to pretend to be a slanker, or pretend to be someone that tunnels everyone every game- is that something that they could repeat or would want to repeat in future games? No, but it's an excellent and skillful wolf strategy. What about a wolf that wants to be abrasive as $#@! to get towncred? Do you think that's going to get them any favors in future village or wolf games now that someone has meta? No. There are a ton of village things that you can say you would want repeated, or that you can notice and say "I would want them on my team for the next 100 games", but sometimes a successful wolf is not that.

    And let alone the fact that almost always wolves are held to the standard of "well, would we want this person on our team when they rand VILLA," while villas are almost NEVER held to the standarrd of "well, would they be able to repeat this as a wolf?" Like, a lot of times last year people thought "well, this wolf being super aggressive and condescinding would ruin morale as a villager!" but then when a villager posted 500 times, I almost never saw the question of "would they be able to replicate this as a wolf." Or "I would not want this person on my team if they randed wolf." It's really, really unfair. Again, repeatability is super, super unfairly pushed in favor of villagers.

    Plus, just taking a step back, what even is skill? Everyone I've talked to has talked about skill in terms of stuff from a village PoV, and, like I said, this makes sense, as there are very few things you can talk about that wolves neccessarily did "skillfullly." And that's because wolfing is adaptive. It's about looking at the circumstances and exploiting weaknesses. It's about making a plan in wolfchat that might involve bussing, might involve being bussed, and might involve powerwolfing. It's about supporting each other emotionally and in the gamethread. It's about doing WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN- which may OR may not be something that people consider skillful, and may OR MAY NOT be something that you would want to replicate in the future. And doing what it takes to win means that pulling out the win is the absolute number one goal for a wolfteam, and what they should ultimately be taken into consideration the most. Eve

    @Beky , I just want to say that I probably? would have voted you in the top 4 if I was in your game over Beck. And this is coming from someone that respects Beck probably more than 90% of people on this site. And I also want to say that it simply dosen't matter. There are many, many, MANY more reasons than this why the champs voting system as it stands is oudated, inefficient, and problematic. (Which I'll include at the end of this post). The truth is that you should just ignore all the problems and play it as it is; to have fun, and not worry about it, because based on my conversations with players, organizers, and moderators, they are unwilling to have a discussion about the deficiencies and this will most likely continue until the end.


    For posterity, here are the 7 reasons that champs voting system as it stands sucks:

    1) Wolves are inherently biased against, as I just described above, and some of this is due to INTENTIONAL wording by the administrators that pushes you to not look at the results of the game and more "skill."
    2) Top posters get an incredible advantage, looking both empiracally and anecdotally, and this sucks for the communities that are used to a low posting environment. On that note, people that try to "take charge" of the thread almost always get the votes, while the people that stay on the sidelines, make good points and make critical votes (with fewer posts) are arguably equally important and often less obtrusive to the village effort as a whole.
    3) Wolves have an alterior motive to bus. There is no way around this. Bussing wolves advance, while the wolves that GET bussed don't. Why should that be? It's not inherently more skilled to bus than to get bussed, and in fact VERY skillful to spew people town before you are getting lynched. Take carsongarden- I'm sure he played a good game. But why is he getting more credit for the bus than someone such as say music, who successfully spewed Beky and others town? In this same line of thought, wolves that get lynched are inherently discriminated against, despite almost every good wolf saying that getting lynched is not the end of the world and ultimately is a sign of a GOOD wolf, as they've pushed an anti-village agenda. Wolves that survive to endgame get major points, while wolves who get their hands dirty and therefore get lynched almost never advance. And this isn't to say that bussers, or people that bus, shoulden't be rewarded. It's moreso ANOTHER example of how this system just $#@!s over wolves, because again, it's adaptive- and there isn't a "set" criteria that you can see skill for.
    4) It just sucks for salty people on either team to be voting for the players to advance. Although nobody would admit it, it's my belief that it's almost impossible to be unbiased in this regard. Your trying to tell me that after rooting for your team emotionally for so many days, you are going to want to vote someone from the opposite alignment in? They are your enemies, and 1 day forward you are going to forget that subconsciously and say "wow, you tricked me/caught me, really good game?" No. At least not in the back of people's minds. And news flash: There are more villagers than wolves.
    5) The metric is flawed. Part of the reason it's flawed is because it messes over wolves, but it's flawed in other ways. It's my belief that taking into account results AND process is the best way to advance, and taking into results matters more for wolves and process matters more for villagers. It sucks that people say that process is almost all you should look at, because ultimately ww is a team game (for both sides). And when teams win, how often are people singled out for being better? Teams ALWAYS say it's a team effort. And even in votes like an MVP vote, it's because you did better results, not process. And besides the deep-seated reasons that this metric is flawed, you have a lot of things that can be improved to make it clearer what you are voting on, but that have been shot down by those in charge when I've tried to make it more clarified (such as clarifying that you should not be letting past experiences with a player/their reputation bias you, which I think happens subconsciously whether we like it or not).
    6) Villagers who are nightkilled early are screwed, and people who are alive in LyLo are favored. This goes for both alignments, actually, as I already noted the reason it's a problem to say the wolves who died early did any worse. However, I think this problem is exacerbated for villagers, because really the best test of skill is whether you died early or not. YOU were the person that the wolves feared the most. (yes, I know this setup arguably has some safeguards against this, but it's DEFINITELY true 100% in other setups and this still applies to this setup some anyway). Sure, voting a wolf in a LyLo f3 is snazzy and cool, but if you were any decent you would have died earlier. That's just my opinion. And again, this isn't a 100% thing- sometimers villagers can just get not killed for some reason or another- but it happens more times than it should.
    7) A very specicic one- but wolfchat itself is always ignored. This is critical and something that they should be emphasizing more. How can you judge the skill play of a wolf without even taking into consideration their side of things? How can you judge their actions from a village perspective all game? Don't lie- most villagers here just haven't done it. I know because i've asked them more than once.

  7. ISO #5357
    I also forgot to include that wolves often get split voted as well. Oh well, consider it in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amrock (#5356)
    I think Radishes makes a strong point about how wolves are inherently biased against in voting that is supposed to emphasize subjective skill over results. That's because the job of wolves is to bring it home, and sometimes doing that requires you doing something that isn't neccessarily "skillful." For example, if you see that town is trying to lynch all the top posters, the most "skilled" thing for a wolf to do would be to fake being a new player and just post the minimum every time. Is that something that anyone here would push forward? No. And yet it is the maximum thing the wolf could do in that situation to advance their win condition.

    There are countless more examples and situations of this that have occured, and will occur in the future. The truth is that wolfing is much more results oriented than villaging. Even in a village loss, you can successfully try and note some things that are "skillful"- like having good reads, making yourself town, controlling the thread, explaining points well, being perceptive, etc, the list goes on and on. Even in a wolf WIN, what exactly can you point to that is "skilled" besides the dubious metric of 'towncred acquired." That's why villagers often get voted in the top 4 for wolf wins, while the ONLY time a wolf advances in a town win in the vast majority of cases is if they bussed.

    And just to add on to that, one of the things I've discussed with people time and time again, on the forums, on discord, and in DMS, is that repeatability is the the key to how they base their votes or should base it. Statements like "who would you want on your team in the future", or statements such as these:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sun Fan (#5345)

    If we played this setup 100 more times with the same players (And I'm putting MisterZ in Radishes slot for this example), do you think you'd be the MVP in more of those game than anyone else? That's the question that I think you need to ask yourself, and its how I determined who I would vote for in this game. Obviously, we can't play 100 games before voting, but that would be the best way to determine who is the best player out of the 17 of us. I think that all of the names I listed would win """MVP""" more than you. Carson and inkarnit would probably come up close to your total as well, in my head.
    ... they dominate the narrative.

    Yeah. This is a fine mentality to have, is pushed upon by the champs organizes, yet is, again, biased against wolves. That's because what wolves need to do to win has NOTHING to do with repeatability. If someone wants to pretend to be a slanker, or pretend to be someone that tunnels everyone every game- is that something that they could repeat or would want to repeat in future games? No, but it's an excellent and skillful wolf strategy. What about a wolf that wants to be abrasive as $#@! to get towncred? Do you think that's going to get them any favors in future village or wolf games now that someone has meta? No. There are a ton of village things that you can say you would want repeated, or that you can notice and say "I would want them on my team for the next 100 games", but sometimes a successful wolf is not that.

    And let alone the fact that almost always wolves are held to the standard of "well, would we want this person on our team when they rand VILLA," while villas are almost NEVER held to the standarrd of "well, would they be able to repeat this as a wolf?" Like, a lot of times last year people thought "well, this wolf being super aggressive and condescinding would ruin morale as a villager!" but then when a villager posted 500 times, I almost never saw the question of "would they be able to replicate this as a wolf." Or "I would not want this person on my team if they randed wolf." It's really, really unfair. Again, repeatability is super, super unfairly pushed in favor of villagers.

    Plus, just taking a step back, what even is skill? Everyone I've talked to has talked about skill in terms of stuff from a village PoV, and, like I said, this makes sense, as there are very few things you can talk about that wolves neccessarily did "skillfullly." And that's because wolfing is adaptive. It's about looking at the circumstances and exploiting weaknesses. It's about making a plan in wolfchat that might involve bussing, might involve being bussed, and might involve powerwolfing. It's about supporting each other emotionally and in the gamethread. It's about doing WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN- which may OR may not be something that people consider skillful, and may OR MAY NOT be something that you would want to replicate in the future. And doing what it takes to win means that pulling out the win is the absolute number one goal for a wolfteam, and what they should ultimately be taken into consideration the most. Eve

    @Beky , I just want to say that I probably? would have voted you in the top 4 if I was in your game over Beck. And this is coming from someone that respects Beck probably more than 90% of people on this site. And I also want to say that it simply dosen't matter. There are many, many, MANY more reasons than this why the champs voting system as it stands is oudated, inefficient, and problematic. (Which I'll include at the end of this post). The truth is that you should just ignore all the problems and play it as it is; to have fun, and not worry about it, because based on my conversations with players, organizers, and moderators, they are unwilling to have a discussion about the deficiencies and this will most likely continue until the end.


    For posterity, here are the 7 reasons that champs voting system as it stands sucks:

    1) Wolves are inherently biased against, as I just described above, and some of this is due to INTENTIONAL wording by the administrators that pushes you to not look at the results of the game and more "skill."
    2) Top posters get an incredible advantage, looking both empiracally and anecdotally, and this sucks for the communities that are used to a low posting environment. On that note, people that try to "take charge" of the thread almost always get the votes, while the people that stay on the sidelines, make good points and make critical votes (with fewer posts) are arguably equally important and often less obtrusive to the village effort as a whole.
    3) Wolves have an alterior motive to bus. There is no way around this. Bussing wolves advance, while the wolves that GET bussed don't. Why should that be? It's not inherently more skilled to bus than to get bussed, and in fact VERY skillful to spew people town before you are getting lynched. Take carsongarden- I'm sure he played a good game. But why is he getting more credit for the bus than someone such as say music, who successfully spewed Beky and others town? In this same line of thought, wolves that get lynched are inherently discriminated against, despite almost every good wolf saying that getting lynched is not the end of the world and ultimately is a sign of a GOOD wolf, as they've pushed an anti-village agenda. Wolves that survive to endgame get major points, while wolves who get their hands dirty and therefore get lynched almost never advance. And this isn't to say that bussers, or people that bus, shoulden't be rewarded. It's moreso ANOTHER example of how this system just $#@!s over wolves, because again, it's adaptive- and there isn't a "set" criteria that you can see skill for.
    4) It just sucks for salty people on either team to be voting for the players to advance. Although nobody would admit it, it's my belief that it's almost impossible to be unbiased in this regard. Your trying to tell me that after rooting for your team emotionally for so many days, you are going to want to vote someone from the opposite alignment in? They are your enemies, and 1 day forward you are going to forget that subconsciously and say "wow, you tricked me/caught me, really good game?" No. At least not in the back of people's minds. And news flash: There are more villagers than wolves.
    5) The metric is flawed. Part of the reason it's flawed is because it messes over wolves, but it's flawed in other ways. It's my belief that taking into account results AND process is the best way to advance, and taking into results matters more for wolves and process matters more for villagers. It sucks that people say that process is almost all you should look at, because ultimately ww is a team game (for both sides). And when teams win, how often are people singled out for being better? Teams ALWAYS say it's a team effort. And even in votes like an MVP vote, it's because you did better results, not process. And besides the deep-seated reasons that this metric is flawed, you have a lot of things that can be improved to make it clearer what you are voting on, but that have been shot down by those in charge when I've tried to make it more clarified (such as clarifying that you should not be letting past experiences with a player/their reputation bias you, which I think happens subconsciously whether we like it or not).
    6) Villagers who are nightkilled early are screwed, and people who are alive in LyLo are favored. This goes for both alignments, actually, as I already noted the reason it's a problem to say the wolves who died early did any worse. However, I think this problem is exacerbated for villagers, because really the best test of skill is whether you died early or not. YOU were the person that the wolves feared the most. (yes, I know this setup arguably has some safeguards against this, but it's DEFINITELY true 100% in other setups and this still applies to this setup some anyway). Sure, voting a wolf in a LyLo f3 is snazzy and cool, but if you were any decent you would have died earlier. That's just my opinion. And again, this isn't a 100% thing- sometimers villagers can just get not killed for some reason or another- but it happens more times than it should.
    7) A very specicic one- but wolfchat itself is always ignored. This is critical and something that they should be emphasizing more. How can you judge the skill play of a wolf without even taking into consideration their side of things? How can you judge their actions from a village perspective all game? Don't lie- most villagers here just haven't done it. I know because i've asked them more than once.
    Thanks for kind words man but i already made my choice and made piece with it. I just cant shake the feeling my entire play this game was downgraded by some people. In the wolf chat i was always throwing ideas and in the end came up with the idea of throwing the vote first. Yet i didnt see anyone mentioning that ( i think someone did say it tho )

    And when people say : Oh Beck had a bad game -- i just ask myself if i had a bad game would i get the same treatment and the answer is an obvious no

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beky (#5358)
    piece
    peace

  10. ISO #5360
    Quote Originally Posted by Beky (#5358)
    In the wolf chat i was always throwing ideas and in the end came up with the idea of throwing the vote first. Yet i didnt see anyone mentioning that ( i think someone did say it tho )
    Yep, consistent problem, you won't be the first and last person affected by that. See point #7

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    If someone wants to pretend to be a slanker, or pretend to be someone that tunnels everyone every game- is that something that they could repeat or would want to repeat in future games? No, but it's an excellent and skillful wolf strategy

    that's usually not a good wolf strategy

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    Thread Analyst Master Radishes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amrock (#5356)
    There are many, many, MANY more reasons than this why the champs voting system as it stands is oudated, inefficient, and problematic. (Which I'll include at the end of this post). The truth is that you should just ignore all the problems and play it as it is; to have fun, and not worry about it, because based on my conversations with players, organizers, and moderators, they are unwilling to have a discussion about the deficiencies and this will most likely continue until the end.
    You raise some very valid points. I don't disagree with them.

    But, like most things in life, there is no perfect solution everyone will be happy with. If we don't vote for 'most skilled' player, then how do we decide which individuals (in a game with two teams with different wincons) advance? We need a system of some sort, or else there's no point in even having a tournament like this.

    Do you have a suggestion?

  13. ISO #5363
    Quote Originally Posted by The Sun Fan (#5361)
    If someone wants to pretend to be a slanker, or pretend to be someone that tunnels everyone every game- is that something that they could repeat or would want to repeat in future games? No, but it's an excellent and skillful wolf strategy

    that's usually not a good wolf strategy
    No offense, but I'm not a fan of people taking 2 sentences into 2,000 word post and ignoring the rest, and I also don't appreciate this strawman (not saying it's intentional). I never once said that it is always a good wolf strategy . I am saying that this is SOMETIMES a good wolf strategy; in those circumstances, this wolf did the best thing they could do for their wolf team; and yet they would never ever get advanced. Just another example of how wolfing is more adaptive than villaging, sometimes you need to do things to win that won't be good in the future.

  14. ISO #5364
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Radishes (#5362)
    Quote Originally Posted by Amrock (#5356)
    There are many, many, MANY more reasons than this why the champs voting system as it stands is oudated, inefficient, and problematic. (Which I'll include at the end of this post). The truth is that you should just ignore all the problems and play it as it is; to have fun, and not worry about it, because based on my conversations with players, organizers, and moderators, they are unwilling to have a discussion about the deficiencies and this will most likely continue until the end.
    You raise some very valid points. I don't disagree with them.

    But, like most things in life, there is no perfect solution everyone will be happy with. If we don't vote for 'most skilled' player, then how do we decide which individuals (in a game with two teams with different wincons) advance? We need a system of some sort, or else there's no point in even having a tournament like this.

    Do you have a suggestion?
    Ahh, that's the big thing. The honest answer is that I have some ideas, but I don't have a perfect solution. The ideas I have are also better suited for a post-champs feedback thread than something such as this, especially bceause they aren't refined. I am the first to admit there is likely not a perfect system, but my frustration mostly falls on the fact that I believe the first step to making some sort of positive change is actually acknowledging the problems, and the organizers and administrators (and a lot of other people) have basically refused to do that.

    I do think that making people aware of these biases would be a crucial first step, though, and making the voting mandate less biased/more clear is critical as well. (And honestly I think that a jury type system for everything, composed of members that are 100% aware of all this stuff, might be a solution).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amrock (#5360)
    Quote Originally Posted by Beky (#5358)
    In the wolf chat i was always throwing ideas and in the end came up with the idea of throwing the vote first. Yet i didnt see anyone mentioning that ( i think someone did say it tho )
    Yep, consistent problem, you won't be the first and last person affected by that. See point #7
    I am aware of that and i hope things change in the future for the players that will come. For me it is too late but new generations should have it better

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    I posted during the game that I think that the advancement system is flawed; I don't have a short essay to type about it or anything, but I think I voted for the best players to advance, in the proper order, and I don't think that their alignment really matters very much; in fact, its probably the thing I factor in the least.

    I will admit that I didn't look at wolfchat though, and I should've. That's probably the only thing that I maybe /should/ have done for voting. What I will do is go read and and tell you whether or not I regret not placing beky/carson/music/AP in my votes

  17. ISO #5367
    Wants It More The Sun Fan's Avatar
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    I'm not strawmanning you or anyone
    feels like I'm playing the game still lmao

  18. ISO #5368
    Quote Originally Posted by The Sun Fan (#5367)
    I'm not strawmanning you or anyone
    feels like I'm playing the game still lmao
    Apolgies for that, think i'm still twitchy over more aggressive debate over discord lol.

    Important to realize we're all on the same side here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sun Fan (#5366)
    I will admit that I didn't look at wolfchat though, and I should've. That's probably the only thing that I maybe /should/ have done for voting. What I will do is go read and and tell you whether or not I regret not placing beky/carson/music/AP in my votes
    i was suprised when you said kill on misty and some others made no sense when we always discussed who to kill all why. Every kill we did in the game served a purpouse. From killing phy instead of you, not killing beck, not killing you on the might we knew you are a jailor etc.

    Kills werent random at all

  20. ISO #5370
    Thread Analyst Master Radishes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amrock (#5364)
    Ahh, that's the big thing. The honest answer is that I have some ideas, but I don't have a perfect solution. The ideas I have are also better suited for a post-champs feedback thread than something such as this, especially bceause they aren't refined. I am the first to admit there is likely not a perfect system, but my frustration mostly falls on the fact that I believe the first step to making some sort of positive change is actually acknowledging the problems, and the organizers and administrators (and a lot of other people) have basically refused to do that.

    I do think that making people aware of these biases would be a crucial first step, though, and making the voting mandate less biased/more clear is critical as well. (And honestly I think that a jury type system for everything, composed of members that are 100% aware of all this stuff, might be a solution).
    That was my initial thought, but (a) playing the game gives a different perspective than observing it, and (b) there'd undoubtedly be accusations of bias and such if the process was outsourced entirely to third party observers.

    Anyway, I'd be willing to participate in a discussion on this after the tournament, if one were to occur.

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    I'm about halfway into wolfchat and I can firmly say that I believe Beky demonstrates ignorance wrt the setup (talking about Beck being a potential alignment cop with a n1 visit on phi which is just impossible) that makes me feel better about not voting Beky

    Beky also argued for killing drew n1 to frame phighter which is like
    nonsense to me

    there was also discussion of nightkilling knee n1 and n2, equally ridiculous to me

    beky believed I was flipping on phi; I never evaluated phi as a wolf after the music lynch and I think that was obvious

    there's some good stuff in there for beky; like knowing that potato is a lost cause because she doesn't have the time to play the game and I think the roleblock on knee was a smart idea given knee's (preemptive) claim of n1/n3 roleblocker

    BekiLast Wednesday at 8:03 PM
    Beck was really good

    BekiLast Wednesday at 8:03 PM
    I even hated to see him die and i am mafia

    feels quite strange coming from someone that didn't think beck was worthy of advancing but that's more beside the point

    honestly the most spicy thing I see in wolfchat is that Potato says she has a crush on Phighter, that was something that I did not expect to read (Did I read that right? I read that 3 times over and got the same conclusion every time).

    I really feel like the wolves didn't have the right pulse on the game a lot of the time tbh, and this isn't just Beky, but carson and potato as well. I think it would've been incredibly hard to lynch phi or myself after the Beck mislynch, even though we were proponents of it.

    There was serious discussion that potato should claim n2 alignment cop with a check on thrud, which just gets her killed immediately.

    wolves barely avoided beky role-copping me and potato performing the nightkill on me n2, which is obviously suboptimal

    I should say that I mean "serious" as "something the wolves might've gone through with." I know these are things that wolves didn't end up doing, but they seem to me as things that could've happened in alternate dimensions.

    Its wrong on paper to not kill me n4, but I can overlook it in practice. My reads were bad at that point.

    thinking anyone ever votes for inkarnit in f7 is absolutely ridiculous; not sure how serious that discussion was though. Looked not too serious.

    The fact that beky spotted ink as susing carson in f5 is a great catch and I absolutely have to give props there. I did not spot that ink was doing this.

    After reading wolfchat, I can confidently say that I would be less likely to vote for Beky to advance than I was before. Carson displays competence in certain times and in others, he agrees with things that I think are a little bit ridiculous, but I think Carson comes up looking alright from wolfchat, especially knowing his entire game was centered around pocketing vanity, Phi and myself.

    But would I vote Carson at 4th or higher? (I voted misty fourth in my votes) I still don't think I would.

  22. ISO #5372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beky (#5369)
    Kills werent random at all
    never said they were random, though the knee n1 kill feels kinda out of left field
    there is a real world where phighter tracks carson that night, and that's why you need to shoot within the players who still have actions

    I don't understand the reasoning behind thinking you could push a lynch onto phi after the drew nightkill, for example

  23. ISO #5373
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    by "that night" I mean night three when you killed misty

  24. ISO #5374
    Season 6 Champion Beck's Avatar
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    I wanted to comment briefly on the discussion here as it involves me, but this will be my only post. I don’t think any extended commentary will fix any hurt feelings or ease any confusion. I am grateful for the recognition by my peers and am content with my play in this game.

    Regarding my reads: I’m not going to stand here and pretend I had the best reads, because I didn’t. But the village did not win, and we were never really close — I was even mislynched entirely by villagers. I continue to see it posted, so to suggest I’m one of the few who had a subpar game reads-wise feels disingenuous and in all honesty hurts. We all play bad games every once in a while, but I don’t think anyone played out of their mind this game beyond the wolves. That’s why they won. Anyway.

    Regarding my reputation: What nobody has considered here is that while my reputation may unfortunately be a factor in other’s decision making process regarding who should advance, my reputation also CERTAINLY played a large part in why I was mislynched early and with little to no reconsideration from many of the players we collectively feel played better than I this game. There is an expectation of my wolf game that, while I appreciate and am flattered by, led several of you to overcompensate. Mafia Championship Syndrome, or whatever it’s called, played a part in my downfall. Players in this game chose not to give me a fair shake because of my meta, and that’s just part of the game. But to not consider both sides is also frustrating.

    That’s all I have to say here. I hope I also don’t come across as arrogant or antagonistic because that’s not my prerogative, but I wanted to reply to my name being thrown around.

    I believe the best all-around players and the best players in this game advanced (that’s why I voted for them), so I’m satisfied by the results. If I get a second chance in the WC, that’s out of my hands.

    Thank you again for all involved in this game, and if anyone wants to chat further I’m always down, either shoot me a PM on here on Discord. Thanks!

  25. ISO #5375
    Wants It More The Sun Fan's Avatar
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    you really gonna say message you on discord then not leave your info?
    smh

  26. ISO #5376
    Ruler of the Universe Thingyman's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amrock (#5356)
    I think Radishes makes a strong point about how wolves are inherently biased against in voting that is supposed to emphasize subjective skill over results. That's because the job of wolves is to bring it home, and sometimes doing that requires you doing something that isn't neccessarily "skillful." For example, if you see that town is trying to lynch all the top posters, the most "skilled" thing for a wolf to do would be to fake being a new player and just post the minimum every time. Is that something that anyone here would push forward? No. And yet it is the maximum thing the wolf could do in that situation to advance their win condition.

    There are countless more examples and situations of this that have occured, and will occur in the future. The truth is that wolfing is much more results oriented than villaging. Even in a village loss, you can successfully try and note some things that are "skillful"- like having good reads, making yourself town, controlling the thread, explaining points well, being perceptive, etc, the list goes on and on. Even in a wolf WIN, what exactly can you point to that is "skilled" besides the dubious metric of 'towncred acquired." That's why villagers often get voted in the top 4 for wolf wins, while the ONLY time a wolf advances in a town win in the vast majority of cases is if they bussed.

    And just to add on to that, one of the things I've discussed with people time and time again, on the forums, on discord, and in DMS, is that repeatability is the the key to how they base their votes or should base it. Statements like "who would you want on your team in the future", or statements such as these:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sun Fan (#5345)

    If we played this setup 100 more times with the same players (And I'm putting MisterZ in Radishes slot for this example), do you think you'd be the MVP in more of those game than anyone else? That's the question that I think you need to ask yourself, and its how I determined who I would vote for in this game. Obviously, we can't play 100 games before voting, but that would be the best way to determine who is the best player out of the 17 of us. I think that all of the names I listed would win """MVP""" more than you. Carson and inkarnit would probably come up close to your total as well, in my head.
    ... they dominate the narrative.

    Yeah. This is a fine mentality to have, is pushed upon by the champs organizes, yet is, again, biased against wolves. That's because what wolves need to do to win has NOTHING to do with repeatability. If someone wants to pretend to be a slanker, or pretend to be someone that tunnels everyone every game- is that something that they could repeat or would want to repeat in future games? No, but it's an excellent and skillful wolf strategy. What about a wolf that wants to be abrasive as $#@! to get towncred? Do you think that's going to get them any favors in future village or wolf games now that someone has meta? No. There are a ton of village things that you can say you would want repeated, or that you can notice and say "I would want them on my team for the next 100 games", but sometimes a successful wolf is not that.

    And let alone the fact that almost always wolves are held to the standard of "well, would we want this person on our team when they rand VILLA," while villas are almost NEVER held to the standarrd of "well, would they be able to repeat this as a wolf?" Like, a lot of times last year people thought "well, this wolf being super aggressive and condescinding would ruin morale as a villager!" but then when a villager posted 500 times, I almost never saw the question of "would they be able to replicate this as a wolf." Or "I would not want this person on my team if they randed wolf." It's really, really unfair. Again, repeatability is super, super unfairly pushed in favor of villagers.

    Plus, just taking a step back, what even is skill? Everyone I've talked to has talked about skill in terms of stuff from a village PoV, and, like I said, this makes sense, as there are very few things you can talk about that wolves neccessarily did "skillfullly." And that's because wolfing is adaptive. It's about looking at the circumstances and exploiting weaknesses. It's about making a plan in wolfchat that might involve bussing, might involve being bussed, and might involve powerwolfing. It's about supporting each other emotionally and in the gamethread. It's about doing WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN- which may OR may not be something that people consider skillful, and may OR MAY NOT be something that you would want to replicate in the future. And doing what it takes to win means that pulling out the win is the absolute number one goal for a wolfteam, and what they should ultimately be taken into consideration the most. Eve

    @Beky , I just want to say that I probably? would have voted you in the top 4 if I was in your game over Beck. And this is coming from someone that respects Beck probably more than 90% of people on this site. And I also want to say that it simply dosen't matter. There are many, many, MANY more reasons than this why the champs voting system as it stands is oudated, inefficient, and problematic. (Which I'll include at the end of this post). The truth is that you should just ignore all the problems and play it as it is; to have fun, and not worry about it, because based on my conversations with players, organizers, and moderators, they are unwilling to have a discussion about the deficiencies and this will most likely continue until the end.


    For posterity, here are the 7 reasons that champs voting system as it stands sucks:

    1) Wolves are inherently biased against, as I just described above, and some of this is due to INTENTIONAL wording by the administrators that pushes you to not look at the results of the game and more "skill."
    2) Top posters get an incredible advantage, looking both empiracally and anecdotally, and this sucks for the communities that are used to a low posting environment. On that note, people that try to "take charge" of the thread almost always get the votes, while the people that stay on the sidelines, make good points and make critical votes (with fewer posts) are arguably equally important and often less obtrusive to the village effort as a whole.
    3) Wolves have an alterior motive to bus. There is no way around this. Bussing wolves advance, while the wolves that GET bussed don't. Why should that be? It's not inherently more skilled to bus than to get bussed, and in fact VERY skillful to spew people town before you are getting lynched. Take carsongarden- I'm sure he played a good game. But why is he getting more credit for the bus than someone such as say music, who successfully spewed Beky and others town? In this same line of thought, wolves that get lynched are inherently discriminated against, despite almost every good wolf saying that getting lynched is not the end of the world and ultimately is a sign of a GOOD wolf, as they've pushed an anti-village agenda. Wolves that survive to endgame get major points, while wolves who get their hands dirty and therefore get lynched almost never advance. And this isn't to say that bussers, or people that bus, shoulden't be rewarded. It's moreso ANOTHER example of how this system just $#@!s over wolves, because again, it's adaptive- and there isn't a "set" criteria that you can see skill for.
    4) It just sucks for salty people on either team to be voting for the players to advance. Although nobody would admit it, it's my belief that it's almost impossible to be unbiased in this regard. Your trying to tell me that after rooting for your team emotionally for so many days, you are going to want to vote someone from the opposite alignment in? They are your enemies, and 1 day forward you are going to forget that subconsciously and say "wow, you tricked me/caught me, really good game?" No. At least not in the back of people's minds. And news flash: There are more villagers than wolves.
    5) The metric is flawed. Part of the reason it's flawed is because it messes over wolves, but it's flawed in other ways. It's my belief that taking into account results AND process is the best way to advance, and taking into results matters more for wolves and process matters more for villagers. It sucks that people say that process is almost all you should look at, because ultimately ww is a team game (for both sides). And when teams win, how often are people singled out for being better? Teams ALWAYS say it's a team effort. And even in votes like an MVP vote, it's because you did better results, not process. And besides the deep-seated reasons that this metric is flawed, you have a lot of things that can be improved to make it clearer what you are voting on, but that have been shot down by those in charge when I've tried to make it more clarified (such as clarifying that you should not be letting past experiences with a player/their reputation bias you, which I think happens subconsciously whether we like it or not).
    6) Villagers who are nightkilled early are screwed, and people who are alive in LyLo are favored. This goes for both alignments, actually, as I already noted the reason it's a problem to say the wolves who died early did any worse. However, I think this problem is exacerbated for villagers, because really the best test of skill is whether you died early or not. YOU were the person that the wolves feared the most. (yes, I know this setup arguably has some safeguards against this, but it's DEFINITELY true 100% in other setups and this still applies to this setup some anyway). Sure, voting a wolf in a LyLo f3 is snazzy and cool, but if you were any decent you would have died earlier. That's just my opinion. And again, this isn't a 100% thing- sometimers villagers can just get not killed for some reason or another- but it happens more times than it should.
    7) A very specicic one- but wolfchat itself is always ignored. This is critical and something that they should be emphasizing more. How can you judge the skill play of a wolf without even taking into consideration their side of things? How can you judge their actions from a village perspective all game? Don't lie- most villagers here just haven't done it. I know because i've asked them more than once.
    Hi Amrock

    We did a survey after last season and plan on doing one after this one as well. The last survey didn't indicate that any changes were needed with regards to the voting criteria, but we will, of course, again be open to changes to this. To say that we aren't open to such changes seems strange, as the wording has been changed 3-4 times over the years. And this season alone had about 10 changes overall.

    We are only interested in improving the Championship and having happy players. What motive would we have for doing anything else? Organizing this is a full-time job, literally. Me - and Lissa - pour a lot of time and energy into this. Of course we want it to be the best that it can.

    I agree with much of your critique, and in an ideal world the way to fix it and have "better votes" and "the truly deserving players advance" would be to have more games, to force players to read mafia chat, to force players to wait a week and give the thread a re-read before casting their votes, to lock players out of the spectator chat until they've cast their votes, etc. etc.

    But all of this would make the Championship more elitist and more unfun than we want it to be. Because as is stated in the mission statement and several other places, this Championship is first and foremost a social event, with the competitive element being of secondary importance.

    I do think it'd be a good idea to add a sentence about it being a good idea to look through the mafia chat before casting your votes. Beyond that, I'm not sure myself what changes would be good, but I'm open to hearing concrete suggestions @Amrock

  27. ISO #5377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Radishes (#5353)
    Sure, but I had to navigate Majiffy and Captain Luffy. That was harder than figuring out who the scum were!
    radishes pls

  28. ISO #5378
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sun Fan (#5345)
    @Beky

    I think that reputation is a factor whether people like it or not
    the fact that MU's very own rep advanced to wild cards last year, despite being mislynched d1 in their game, shows that this is true and I will further venture to say that I think reputation not only is a factor, but it should be a factor.

    I know Beck is a good player. Sure, his reads were mostly wrong, but if you look at how his reads went down, I think you'll see the sense behind them all.

    D0- voted arie; 5 other towns (I am including punchy here) voted for her, and 0 mafia did. I had a post where I said "Arie might be town but the wagon is pure" to which Beck agreed with. Getting to "Mafia is busing hardcore on d0" is not only very difficult, its also almost always wrong to assume such imo.

    D1- Voted for thrud, thought music was also mafia. This is totally fine imo, and all players who were present agreed regardless of alignment.

    D2- Pushed on knee for voting for thrud for apparently inconsistent reasons. I would remind you that town lynched knee later on. Of his scumreads at that point, only potato was mafia, but the game-state was very hard at that point.

    ---------------------------------------------

    His reads were not great. He is clearly rusty. But I stand by voting for him as the best player in the game. I firmly agree with Radishes that I think I can recognize skill when I see it. Heck, I think I know within 5-10 minutes of talking to someone I've never met whether or not they would enjoy the game of mafia (I should say I don't like, look for this very often or anything). Am I not supposed to vote for Beck because he was lynched despite the fact that I think he's the best player in the game after examining the play of all other players in the game? For what? Because he was mislynched? Because his reads were not stellar? Because mafia didn't want to nightkill him? That doesn't make any amount of sense to me.

    ----------------------------------------

    I think you're a fine player. Sniffing out that Carson was going to get voted by ink was probably the play of the game for mafia.

    The fact that you lied about the busing survey result (and you were also the first one to respond so this was a knee-jerk reaction out of you) is impressive and shows that you are a unique player.

    I also think that you're unrefined. You did a couple things this game that I think you got away with more because of music's push on you than anything else. Your reads list was something that I look for from scum who have not played in a strong environment before (you had TMI).

    Your nightkill on misty was strictly incorrect (even now knowing mafia didn't have to be afraid of n3 alignment cop or n3 vig). If you didn't use the Role Cop n1 as mafia JOAT, that was also incorrect. Neither of these are justifiable imo. (The nightkill on phi n4 was also a mistake on paper, but clearly, phi had a better pulse on the game than I did, so this one is more than justifiable, I think its correct).

    Additionally, and this isn't held against you in voting, its just more of a small thing, you shouldn't have mentioned the ongoing game on your home forum, even in jest.

    I remember the first time I came into champs. I thought the world was mine. I know now that I was full of $#@!; sure, I was a sound player, but I knew I played great in my qualifying game, and I'd be surprised if I was in the top 7 vote-getters in that game. You remind me of that player right now.

    You're good, Beky. But I firmly believe that you are unrefined. I stand by not putting you in my top 4.

    I would say that:
    myself
    vanity
    Beck
    Misterya
    (+ Radishes but I was never going to consider voting him there tbh)

    Are all definitely more skilled than you.

    ------------------------------------------

    I think you are looking at this game as "who was MVP of the game" rather than "who is the best player."

    If we played this setup 100 more times with the same players (And I'm putting MisterZ in Radishes slot for this example), do you think you'd be the MVP in more of those game than anyone else? That's the question that I think you need to ask yourself, and its how I determined who I would vote for in this game. Obviously, we can't play 100 games before voting, but that would be the best way to determine who is the best player out of the 17 of us. I think that all of the names I listed would win """MVP""" more than you. Carson and inkarnit would probably come up close to your total as well, in my head.

    I don't mean this to belittle you or like kick a man when he's down or anything. You're clearly upset and hurt that you didn't advance, but this is more of an explanation for why I think you were not in the top four vote-getters despite having a rather nice game.

    More than anything else, I agree with radishes. Votes are arbitrary. Even if there was ZERO discussion between the submission of the first vote, and another vote that was redone after 24 hours, I would bet a million dollars (if I had it!) that all 17 voters do not vote exactly how they voted in the first vote.

    You seem destined for wildcard here imo. Take my advice; play that game. I was never more humbled by a game of mafia in my life than I was after my season 3 wildcard game. See more talent. You'll see just how good some of these players are. It gave me a $#@!load of perspective on much more than mafia; but my opinion of myself just like
    with regard to my intelligence.


    tl;dr
    Don't withdraw, dude.
    If everything i made was bad how come i won? Luck? Town being bad?

  29. ISO #5379
    GOAT Tier Phighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Radishes (#5349)
    On a tangent:

    I do think that playing a wolf makes it harder to gain votes. Except for the best power-wolves, you are naturally going to play in a way that doesn't show off your game-solving skills. Therefore, at the end of the game, even if you've won, other players are going to reflect on your game with a mindset pre-conceived from the past few days of believing that you weren't doing enough to solve the game. You may get MVP votes upon winning, but your overall game won't have been played in a way that convinces others you're the best player. At least, not in the way the Townies who successfully hunted scum (regardless of a few misses along the way) would have been.

    Don't know if that makes sense. But basically, if my goal was to advance, I'd rather be Town than Mafia in a Champs game.
    Ah man, if I had randed wolf, you would have seen some sick ass wolf moves bro lol

    I think different wheelhouses/playstyles show different strengths

    As a wolf in a set-up like this if you can put together the pure villageriness strong enough to fake it and win the game, I think that translates well enough to real villagerness

    (this debate/discussion looks fascinating and I will reread it in full later)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beky (#5378)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Sun Fan (#5345)
    @Beky

    I think that reputation is a factor whether people like it or not
    the fact that MU's very own rep advanced to wild cards last year, despite being mislynched d1 in their game, shows that this is true and I will further venture to say that I think reputation not only is a factor, but it should be a factor.

    I know Beck is a good player. Sure, his reads were mostly wrong, but if you look at how his reads went down, I think you'll see the sense behind them all.

    D0- voted arie; 5 other towns (I am including punchy here) voted for her, and 0 mafia did. I had a post where I said "Arie might be town but the wagon is pure" to which Beck agreed with. Getting to "Mafia is busing hardcore on d0" is not only very difficult, its also almost always wrong to assume such imo.

    D1- Voted for thrud, thought music was also mafia. This is totally fine imo, and all players who were present agreed regardless of alignment.

    D2- Pushed on knee for voting for thrud for apparently inconsistent reasons. I would remind you that town lynched knee later on. Of his scumreads at that point, only potato was mafia, but the game-state was very hard at that point.

    ---------------------------------------------

    His reads were not great. He is clearly rusty. But I stand by voting for him as the best player in the game. I firmly agree with Radishes that I think I can recognize skill when I see it. Heck, I think I know within 5-10 minutes of talking to someone I've never met whether or not they would enjoy the game of mafia (I should say I don't like, look for this very often or anything). Am I not supposed to vote for Beck because he was lynched despite the fact that I think he's the best player in the game after examining the play of all other players in the game? For what? Because he was mislynched? Because his reads were not stellar? Because mafia didn't want to nightkill him? That doesn't make any amount of sense to me.

    ----------------------------------------

    I think you're a fine player. Sniffing out that Carson was going to get voted by ink was probably the play of the game for mafia.

    The fact that you lied about the busing survey result (and you were also the first one to respond so this was a knee-jerk reaction out of you) is impressive and shows that you are a unique player.

    I also think that you're unrefined. You did a couple things this game that I think you got away with more because of music's push on you than anything else. Your reads list was something that I look for from scum who have not played in a strong environment before (you had TMI).

    Your nightkill on misty was strictly incorrect (even now knowing mafia didn't have to be afraid of n3 alignment cop or n3 vig). If you didn't use the Role Cop n1 as mafia JOAT, that was also incorrect. Neither of these are justifiable imo. (The nightkill on phi n4 was also a mistake on paper, but clearly, phi had a better pulse on the game than I did, so this one is more than justifiable, I think its correct).

    Additionally, and this isn't held against you in voting, its just more of a small thing, you shouldn't have mentioned the ongoing game on your home forum, even in jest.

    I remember the first time I came into champs. I thought the world was mine. I know now that I was full of $#@!; sure, I was a sound player, but I knew I played great in my qualifying game, and I'd be surprised if I was in the top 7 vote-getters in that game. You remind me of that player right now.

    You're good, Beky. But I firmly believe that you are unrefined. I stand by not putting you in my top 4.

    I would say that:
    myself
    vanity
    Beck
    Misterya
    (+ Radishes but I was never going to consider voting him there tbh)

    Are all definitely more skilled than you.

    ------------------------------------------

    I think you are looking at this game as "who was MVP of the game" rather than "who is the best player."

    If we played this setup 100 more times with the same players (And I'm putting MisterZ in Radishes slot for this example), do you think you'd be the MVP in more of those game than anyone else? That's the question that I think you need to ask yourself, and its how I determined who I would vote for in this game. Obviously, we can't play 100 games before voting, but that would be the best way to determine who is the best player out of the 17 of us. I think that all of the names I listed would win """MVP""" more than you. Carson and inkarnit would probably come up close to your total as well, in my head.

    I don't mean this to belittle you or like kick a man when he's down or anything. You're clearly upset and hurt that you didn't advance, but this is more of an explanation for why I think you were not in the top four vote-getters despite having a rather nice game.

    More than anything else, I agree with radishes. Votes are arbitrary. Even if there was ZERO discussion between the submission of the first vote, and another vote that was redone after 24 hours, I would bet a million dollars (if I had it!) that all 17 voters do not vote exactly how they voted in the first vote.

    You seem destined for wildcard here imo. Take my advice; play that game. I was never more humbled by a game of mafia in my life than I was after my season 3 wildcard game. See more talent. You'll see just how good some of these players are. It gave me a $#@!load of perspective on much more than mafia; but my opinion of myself just like
    with regard to my intelligence.


    tl;dr
    Don't withdraw, dude.
    If everything i made was bad how come i won? Luck? Town being bad?
    Phighter deathtunneling Beck certainly helped your team

    But no, not everything you made was "bad" -- that's an overreaction and a misread of the situation. Without reading the rest, you fell into a blind spot because music bussed you hard d1. I don't think anything in your play put you above:

    1) vanity (nailed music, very obviously town)
    2) CarsonGarden (produced the right amount of villagery content and helped steer the town onto each other/land the plane)
    3) Beck (great thought processes, just wrong reads this game)
    4) The Sun Fan (top voted, etc.)

  31. ISO #5381
    GOAT Tier Phighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck (#5374)
    I wanted to comment briefly on the discussion here as it involves me, but this will be my only post. I don’t think any extended commentary will fix any hurt feelings or ease any confusion. I am grateful for the recognition by my peers and am content with my play in this game.

    Regarding my reads: I’m not going to stand here and pretend I had the best reads, because I didn’t. But the village did not win, and we were never really close — I was even mislynched entirely by villagers. I continue to see it posted, so to suggest I’m one of the few who had a subpar game reads-wise feels disingenuous and in all honesty hurts. We all play bad games every once in a while, but I don’t think anyone played out of their mind this game beyond the wolves. That’s why they won. Anyway.

    Regarding my reputation: What nobody has considered here is that while my reputation may unfortunately be a factor in other’s decision making process regarding who should advance, my reputation also CERTAINLY played a large part in why I was mislynched early and with little to no reconsideration from many of the players we collectively feel played better than I this game. There is an expectation of my wolf game that, while I appreciate and am flattered by, led several of you to overcompensate. Mafia Championship Syndrome, or whatever it’s called, played a part in my downfall. Players in this game chose not to give me a fair shake because of my meta, and that’s just part of the game. But to not consider both sides is also frustrating.

    That’s all I have to say here. I hope I also don’t come across as arrogant or antagonistic because that’s not my prerogative, but I wanted to reply to my name being thrown around.

    I believe the best all-around players and the best players in this game advanced (that’s why I voted for them), so I’m satisfied by the results. If I get a second chance in the WC, that’s out of my hands.

    Thank you again for all involved in this game, and if anyone wants to chat further I’m always down, either shoot me a PM on here on Discord. Thanks!
    Professionally I don't agree with the fair shake bit that follows, but the bolded is quoted for truth. We definitely lynched Beck (or at least I did) because I thought that in addition to his wolfy ass play, I thought he could easily have been dunking on all of us.

  32. ISO #5382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phighter (#5380)
    I don't think anything in your play put you above:
    Not even winning the last day phase by myself and saving Carson from a certain trap/lynch? Without me Carson would be dead last phase and it was my reaction and play that ultimately won the game for mafia

  33. ISO #5383
    Wants It More The Sun Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beky (#5378)
    If everything i made was bad how come i won? Luck? Town being bad?
    I think "luck" is perhaps not the right term to describe the experience of playing with new players, perhaps "variance" is a better term, but I do think that is a factor in every balanced game of mafia that has ever been played.

    I do not think everything you did was bad. I literally called you MVP of the game. I pointed out what I think are many mistakes or flaws in your game, and I don't think that other players would be as likely to make these mistakes. You deserve recognition for sure for spotting what ink was doing the last day.

    Why did mafia win this game? I think the fact that town never examined the world where mafia was busing the whole game was a mistake for town. I think the fact that mafia was busing the whole game was a mistake for mafia. I can't really answer that question without writing a short essay about it. Certainly, town made many mistakes this game, as well as mafia. One side managed the win here.

  34. ISO #5384
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    something I wanted to say to you during the game, but never did

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  35. ISO #5385
    Thread Analyst Master Radishes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmartBomb (#5377)
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Radishes (#5353)
    Sure, but I had to navigate Majiffy and Captain Luffy. That was harder than figuring out who the scum were!
    radishes pls
    Pardon me.

    *Smartbomb and I had to navigate Majiffy and Captain Luffy.

  36. ISO #5386
    "You'll shoot your eye out!" Logic's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sun Fan (#5384)
    @CarsonGarden
    something I wanted to say to you during the game, but never did

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    @The Sun Fan
    your link. It be broken.
    Last edited by Logic; June 11th, 2019 at 10:38 AM.

  37. ISO #5387
    Wants It More The Sun Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logic (#5386)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Sun Fan (#5384)
    @CarsonGarden
    something I wanted to say to you during the game, but never did

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    @The Sun Fan
    your link. It be broken.
    Yeah, that's what I wanted to tell carson

  38. ISO #5388
    GOAT Tier Jaleb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sun Fan (#5384)
    @CarsonGarden
    something I wanted to say to you during the game, but never did

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    ##Vote The Sun Fan

  39. ISO #5389
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
    Join Date
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    Arizona
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    Unused flavor part 1

    (no one dies at night)
    Court Adjourned

    This court is in adjournment. I need a nap


    (I swear I'll get to the rest of it soon )

  40. ISO #5390
    Soul Reader AndrewGreve's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angrypotato (#267)
    ok, let me try to read evryone in detail. Let me go first in on my 2 villa leans on Vanity and Thrud.

    Firstly Vanity

    Despite calling Vanity a female this game, i have a very good feeling that that dude is town. Firsly, Vanity have demonstrated to me that he in a realxed mood, which generally is a good vibes indicator in my town book.
    secondly, I deeply enjoyed some of the posts he has made, such as the one where he unleashed all his noyes into the thread. I felt it was very townish. Thirdly, I like that fact that he helped some of the players early on in the game. Although to some that might seem Nai, or sheep or pokety, i felt the way he did it feels sincere and non agendaish.

    Now to Thrud,
    I am having mixed feeling about thrud tbh at this point. AT first , i felt thrud to trollish, such as that read list. Like with VANITY, i tend to view such behaviour as a townish behaviour although i am decidely not a fan of it.But i have to admit , when i was writing that post , i did not see his post on Arie, which means that i would need to reevaluate him in his later posts.

    TBh, i dont know how i am going to feel aboput the sudden flush of votes on arie. I am feeling abit confused.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrypotato (#213)
    After reading all the introductions early inteoductions, I am giving a slight town read to Vanity, Thrud .
    In my opinions, townies tends to be less tense in early voting stages, they tend to joke around. I am not as sure as of Da stars as it is mentioned that he liked to troll ( need to read more on that).Its like being alone at home and waering nothing but your panties (rather graphic)or not wearing a bra, it is a very feeing experience as you dont feel contrainted by the rules of society.


    I liked Beck's tone tbh, but i must admit that i going to stay vigilant between our interactions. I do not want to be easily placated by his gentle tone and pleasurable avatar .


    As a lover of walls, i like post 192 , i find it easy to understand and not agendaish.

    With that, i will be trying to read morefrom now and try to see if i have anything missed out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrypotato (#1041)
    People that should not be lynched and I will crucify for you if you dared to lynch the

    My two lhfs Beky and Mister X.
    Vanity, Sun Fan Kistt - I liked their isos. Also I am a sucker for walls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrypotato (#1403)
    I am still amazed that Phighter feels that me and Mister Z are scum buddies. I am honestly amzed.

    I am quiet surprised that this is even brought up. Why? Becasue, if Mister X keeps on posting as he did in day 1, he would be either vigged or lynched in later days. And if both of us are scum buddies, when Mister flipped, everyone attention would be on me, as i am probabby the only one that is defending Mister X. Like costs beenfit analysis, it would do me no good to defend Mister X if we were scumbuddies. But rather, best play is for me in that senerio to either dunk on him or just let him by lynched eventually.


    Does anyone get this or should I make it even more simpler?


    here are some posts by w!potato

    you guys can decide if they are similar or not. Or at least if she ever makes reads or not as wolf.

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Role of the Day
Pacifist

The Pacifist may once per game announce a ceasefire during day, cancelling that day's lynch and blocking all kills the following night, essentially guaranteeing no deaths for two consecutive phases.