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Thread: #20: How To Put Wolves In A Box (by Newcomb)

  1. ISO #51
    Low Hanging Fruit LordQuas's Avatar Game Manager
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    white flag is a varied, fun, and interesting setup (that can usually balanced)

    but probably a TERRIBLE idea for a champs setup considering the uh, varied skill levels of players sometimes. We also wouldn't get great moments like g4 or BATMAN's solo win

    Lastly it's pretty unconventional. Simply put, a lot people aren't going to be used to powerwolfing in this kind of setup and it just won't be familiar territory to them. Forcing a certain playstyle (especially a nonstandard one) is prolly just a bad idea when concept of champs is to take people from across a wide variety of forums/discords/live communities etc
    :wiwe

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    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas (#51)
    white flag is a varied, fun, and interesting setup (that can usually balanced)

    but probably a TERRIBLE idea for a champs setup considering the uh, varied skill levels of players sometimes. We also wouldn't get great moments like g4 or BATMAN's solo win

    Lastly it's pretty unconventional. Simply put, a lot people aren't going to be used to powerwolfing in this kind of setup and it just won't be familiar territory to them. Forcing a certain playstyle (especially a nonstandard one) is prolly just a bad idea when concept of champs is to take people from across a wide variety of forums/discords/live communities etc
    Yeah I agree

    And also just the concept of having to be reliant on your teammates to that degree is rough. I think it's an unfortunate aspect for villagers that their worst teammates can drag them down, dunno that I wanna do that to the wolves too
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  3. ISO #53
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas (#51)
    white flag is a varied, fun, and interesting setup (that can usually balanced)

    but probably a TERRIBLE idea for a champs setup considering the uh, varied skill levels of players sometimes. We also wouldn't get great moments like g4 or BATMAN's solo win

    Lastly it's pretty unconventional. Simply put, a lot people aren't going to be used to powerwolfing in this kind of setup and it just won't be familiar territory to them. Forcing a certain playstyle (especially a nonstandard one) is prolly just a bad idea when concept of champs is to take people from across a wide variety of forums/discords/live communities etc
    part of me enjoys the idea of like, what sr said, increasing the teammate reliance to have them limited a bit more in the way the village is

    but it's an extremely unconventional dynamic which i'm not a fan of for champs, and it's stylistically limiting in a fundamental way which same issue
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  4. ISO #54
    Soul Reader AndrewGreve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phighter (#47)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#46)
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggles1993 (#45)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thingyman (#38)
    “The most interesting rule we have right now is that scum lose when there's one scum left alive and it's really changed how I and others play the game in the best way possible (thanks to @SwedishSkumbag amongst others for making this happen).”

    This is super duper interesting and I like the dynamics it introduces for several reasons. We should test this on MU! Which setups do you run exactly, @Wisdom?
    @Empoof has already run a few setups of these. It's called white-flag mafia.
    Very interesting. Might be interesting to consider this for next year's Championship setup.
    I hate this idea on like every front.

    If you can't find the last mafia, that's your fault. My favorite thing about wolfing is when it gets down to the nitty gritty in the bunkers and there's one last wolf standing up against an army of town and actually making progress and work and coming back.

    Wolves always have the option to surrender if they really want to, but we should not force those who want that option to fight to have to give in just because this year's champs was so incredibly wolfsided.
    Pretty obvious Thingy is just trying to keep his record of 1vX as wolf unbeatable by changing the rules.

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    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#53)
    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas (#51)
    white flag is a varied, fun, and interesting setup (that can usually balanced)

    but probably a TERRIBLE idea for a champs setup considering the uh, varied skill levels of players sometimes. We also wouldn't get great moments like g4 or BATMAN's solo win

    Lastly it's pretty unconventional. Simply put, a lot people aren't going to be used to powerwolfing in this kind of setup and it just won't be familiar territory to them. Forcing a certain playstyle (especially a nonstandard one) is prolly just a bad idea when concept of champs is to take people from across a wide variety of forums/discords/live communities etc
    part of me enjoys the idea of like, what sr said, increasing the teammate reliance to have them limited a bit more in the way the village is

    but it's an extremely unconventional dynamic which i'm not a fan of for champs, and it's stylistically limiting in a fundamental way which same issue
    Heh, I did consider that in a way that might sort of balance things but then I was like... well... I hate that village has to deal with it, I don't know that I would really be any happier if it happened to wolves too even if it did have some sense of balance to it.
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    Look upon my works ye low hanging fruit and despair!
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    I'm not accusing you of meta

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    1610 mendel's Avatar
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    combine white flag mafia with a one-shot recruiter role?
    Finding out who you are is important.
    How to slank in Mafia games -- share your experiences!

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    Galaxy Brain Jaleb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#56)
    combine white flag mafia with a one-shot recruiter role?
    If you're saying mafia recruiter, that would be considered bastard therefore a no with MU's community.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empoof (#4961)
    it was jaleb

    @Jaleb is a god
    ??Frog ??Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    Jaleb, you're lowkey Magnus

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    1610 mendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaleb (#57)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#56)
    combine white flag mafia with a one-shot recruiter role?
    If you're saying mafia recruiter, that would be considered bastard therefore a no with MU's community.
    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...role=Converter

    But yeah, alignment-changing roles are always a bit bastard.
    I like the interplay here, because the converter can choose a player to be in the optimum position to deepwolf to the end, thus making the capability of the scum team to survive not depend so much on the outcome of the rand, but rather on a conscious decision on the part of the scum team. Which is as it should be.
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  9. ISO #59
    Amberguard Emberguard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#29)
    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#24)
    Put yourself in mafia!GH's shoes here: He knows DLE is telling the truth. (You have to discard the idea that they're w/w, but that would be one of the weirdest w/w interactions ever so yeah no). He knows DLE isn't mafia going for some kind of weird dumbtell or derpclear. He knows DLE is just exactly what he is - a dude with a broken keyboard.

    The idea that it would even occur to mafia!GH there to do a Google Reverse Image lookup of that picture is laughable.

    On the other hand, if GH is town, then it makes perfect, perfect sense. He's the very image of a paranoid villager getting into every nook and cranny. He doesn't know DLE. On the off-chance that he could catch DLE in a lazy wolf lie for some reason, he's going to see if that's an image DLE just ripped from Google or whatever. Might as well, right?

    The idea that it would occur to GH to do that, to even go there in the first place, as town, is entirely, completely believable.

    All of this is based on the lack of TMI that DLE is a villager.
    i agree with the concept overall here, but how is an h key being broken AI in the first place? why would suspecting it of being a mafia ploy even be a thing? i read that whole exchange as a joke by GH, the punchline being, he's treating it as something mafia would lie about when it's clearly not.

    @GeneralHankerchief i need a verdict here. were you joking?
    Yeah I agree. With that one I never would have even reverse image searched it regardless of my own alignment. I might have asked what they meant just out of curiosity, but I wouldn't have tried to frame it as a mafia or town ploy
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    4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
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  10. ISO #60
    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Solid article!!! Wanted to pull out a part that wasn't really discussed:

    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#1)
    Indirect pressure is better than direct pressure. If you make a big case directly to a wolf, you give them something to attack, something to engage with. You’re presenting a way for them to get out of the box. Indirect pressure - The Box - leaves them nothing to fight against. A charge of “not villagery enough” in a gamestate with a strong towncore can be damning both in its accuracy, and its difficulty to counter. By giving wolves no way out of the Box except to clear the bar of villageryness that the game has set, you’re putting wolves in the hardest position possible: having to fake an organic, solving mindset that’s not rooted in pushing a specific world or person.

    This isn’t to say that if you catch a wolf dead to rights, you shouldn’t case them, but in my experience, it’s a waste of time to direct your case to them. You’re never going to get a wolf to admit they have a wolf role PM. Instead, direct your case at the thread. Start using indirect language. Not “Newcomb, you’re a wolf, I’m going to lynch you,” but “Newcomb is a wolf, let’s lynch him.” As much fun as it can be to get down in the dirt and directly scrap with someone, it’s almost never a good use of your time. Worse yet, a lot of the more unpleasant social situations that tend to crop up over and over in mafia games are rooted in exactly that - direct engagements where one or both parties feels personally wronged or attacked. And since the entire game of mafia is rooted in calling each other liars when 70%+ of the game are not, it’s an all-too-common occurrence.

    Start to shop your cases around to the thread at large, to your village reads, and largely ignore what the target of your case says about it, and you’ll start to reap some pretty massive benefits in terms of accuracy, thread health, and odds to actually get your target lynched.
    This is just some really well worded stuff, and I think this is an extremely underrated part of having reads/presenting cases!!!

    A lot of time, it's the more experienced players who tend to have this sort of "ivory tower" reads; specifically, directing the case to the thread at large, and not addressing it to a particular player!!!

    I theorize that it's because when people first get into mafia, they treat it more like many conversations with multiple different people rather than a presentation giving your thoughts on a bunch of people with some individual engagement, which is more like what these reads are, in a general sense!! Except everyone else is also doing their own presentation, and you also have to pay attention to their presentations too... metaphor falling apart here, but hopefully that makes some sense!

    Personally, I've always treated mafia as a fun performance regardless of alignment, so that may tie into it partially!!

    On another point, the part about "shopping your case around to the thread at large" is a major point bridging the gap between "ivory tower reads" and "having fun by engaging the thread"; there was a really excellent example of this in a game recently, which I may dig if anyone's interested/I have the time!!!

    Anyways, when you make a case against someone, they respond to it, and you start getting into a back and forth over your read... if you're loud enough, it's much more liable to cause chaos in the thread rather than help town's position, whether you're v/v or v/w!!! The accused is of course arguing with TMI that they know they're innocent, and you're arguing for your read; you're unlikely to change your mind, and more importantly, you're unlikely to change anyone else's mind!!

    I've done and watched probably more than my share of drowning out threads in this fashion, and let's just say it does not make for a town-friendly environment; it sinks morale with other players feeling like they're being ignored, that they're not being heard, and unnaturally twists the game around a few specific players... tends to just suck the fun out of the atmosphere for almost everyone involved!!!

    I say almost everyone because guess who thrives on this sort of fighting? The mafia, of course!! With TMI, they already know the alignments of a predictable fight and can plan accordingly, maneuvering themselves into positions to capitalize on the aftermath of flips because they already know what they're going to be! The easiest example is with a v/v fight: they can stoke the fires to build it up more, get in on a bit of w/w distancing when attention is elsewhere, strategize on who to swoop down on after flips for being wrong... or even just relax, fading into the background, unsuspected as they conserve their strength!!

    When the thread is calmer and people are able to think clearly, they are able to get townier and solve together, and actually construct that box!!!

    That got a bit messy/longwinded, so in short: forcing 1v1s creates dams, so don't and let people be waterfalls!!
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    Soul Reader $$$BLAZE$$$ Lissa42069 o7's Avatar
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    this article neglected to mention the crucial step of using 100 posts per page instead of the default 50. game changer.

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    Low Hanging Fruit UnDeFeatedKing's Avatar
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    idk if this guy even still posts/plays, but:

    Reading a lack of TMI into a low-hanging fruit villager, someone who wolves surely need to mislynch, can be a game-changing play. If you save them, you’ve affected the game more than if you’d caught a wolf. Denying wolves the mislynches they need to win catches all the wolves, in the end.

    A villager can be incredibly lazy, can post less than 10 times, can make a very, very bad looking push, but if they post one single sentence that just absolutely shows you that they don’t have more information than they should, you can get to villager on them. Once you start looking past the surface level and start looking at players’ mindsets, start thinking about what could have been going through their heads as they wrote a post as either alignment, patterns will start to emerge. You’ll start to see past people’s unique stylistic quirks and start to see archetypes, different approaches to the game, patterns of behavior and scenarios that you’ll see play out over and over. You’ll start to see the game underneath the game - vastly more important than the content of someone’s reads, the specific targets of their pushes, are the thoughts they used to get there.
    while i agree with your entire body of writing, there's downsides to what you're saying. once you're capable of doing this, your town reads on these players for these type of reasons are often put aside. you saying "i know they're town based on these bits of info showing they can't be scum" again are often thrown aside to the louder voices talking about how they're scummy for doing scummy things, which as you said doesn't necessarily make them scum.

    not only that, but if the person does end up getting lynched even after you've extensively defended them, you may even get accused of TMI for knowing that the person was town and trying to get ahead of the lynch. people will say your reasons were far too weak for you to be that sure. even with reputation for being able to do this, i still get accused of being scum for these very same things because it always comes across as looking like im trying to look good off a town lynch.


    the only actual viable solution ive found to stop this is to lie as town about your reasons for town reading said person. if you pick up the quirky thing that you can see makes them town but no one else will actually you believe you for it then all you're doing is confirming them as town for yourself. if you fabricate made up reasons that look more credible to the player base they're more likely to believe your take than the actual reasons you're reading them town for.

    still a good post overall.

  13. ISO #63
    Loansharking blot test Newcomb's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnDeFeatedKing (#62)
    idk if this guy even still posts/plays, but:

    Reading a lack of TMI into a low-hanging fruit villager, someone who wolves surely need to mislynch, can be a game-changing play. If you save them, you’ve affected the game more than if you’d caught a wolf. Denying wolves the mislynches they need to win catches all the wolves, in the end.

    A villager can be incredibly lazy, can post less than 10 times, can make a very, very bad looking push, but if they post one single sentence that just absolutely shows you that they don’t have more information than they should, you can get to villager on them. Once you start looking past the surface level and start looking at players’ mindsets, start thinking about what could have been going through their heads as they wrote a post as either alignment, patterns will start to emerge. You’ll start to see past people’s unique stylistic quirks and start to see archetypes, different approaches to the game, patterns of behavior and scenarios that you’ll see play out over and over. You’ll start to see the game underneath the game - vastly more important than the content of someone’s reads, the specific targets of their pushes, are the thoughts they used to get there.
    while i agree with your entire body of writing, there's downsides to what you're saying. once you're capable of doing this, your town reads on these players for these type of reasons are often put aside. you saying "i know they're town based on these bits of info showing they can't be scum" again are often thrown aside to the louder voices talking about how they're scummy for doing scummy things, which as you said doesn't necessarily make them scum.

    not only that, but if the person does end up getting lynched even after you've extensively defended them, you may even get accused of TMI for knowing that the person was town and trying to get ahead of the lynch. people will say your reasons were far too weak for you to be that sure. even with reputation for being able to do this, i still get accused of being scum for these very same things because it always comes across as looking like im trying to look good off a town lynch.


    the only actual viable solution ive found to stop this is to lie as town about your reasons for town reading said person. if you pick up the quirky thing that you can see makes them town but no one else will actually you believe you for it then all you're doing is confirming them as town for yourself. if you fabricate made up reasons that look more credible to the player base they're more likely to believe your take than the actual reasons you're reading them town for.

    still a good post overall.
    I mean, having to play around bad players is a skill in and of itself, but the actual actual answer is to just play with people who aren't bad enough to do this.

    Lying as a villager has extreme backfire potential and is almost never worth it in my experience. In your example, fabricating reasons to townread someone is literally putting a mindset into the thread that if people correctly read, they will and should wolfread you for. And good players will absolutely pick up on that.

  14. ISO #64
    Low Hanging Fruit UnDeFeatedKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#63)
    Quote Originally Posted by UnDeFeatedKing (#62)
    idk if this guy even still posts/plays, but:

    Reading a lack of TMI into a low-hanging fruit villager, someone who wolves surely need to mislynch, can be a game-changing play. If you save them, you’ve affected the game more than if you’d caught a wolf. Denying wolves the mislynches they need to win catches all the wolves, in the end.

    A villager can be incredibly lazy, can post less than 10 times, can make a very, very bad looking push, but if they post one single sentence that just absolutely shows you that they don’t have more information than they should, you can get to villager on them. Once you start looking past the surface level and start looking at players’ mindsets, start thinking about what could have been going through their heads as they wrote a post as either alignment, patterns will start to emerge. You’ll start to see past people’s unique stylistic quirks and start to see archetypes, different approaches to the game, patterns of behavior and scenarios that you’ll see play out over and over. You’ll start to see the game underneath the game - vastly more important than the content of someone’s reads, the specific targets of their pushes, are the thoughts they used to get there.
    while i agree with your entire body of writing, there's downsides to what you're saying. once you're capable of doing this, your town reads on these players for these type of reasons are often put aside. you saying "i know they're town based on these bits of info showing they can't be scum" again are often thrown aside to the louder voices talking about how they're scummy for doing scummy things, which as you said doesn't necessarily make them scum.

    not only that, but if the person does end up getting lynched even after you've extensively defended them, you may even get accused of TMI for knowing that the person was town and trying to get ahead of the lynch. people will say your reasons were far too weak for you to be that sure. even with reputation for being able to do this, i still get accused of being scum for these very same things because it always comes across as looking like im trying to look good off a town lynch.


    the only actual viable solution ive found to stop this is to lie as town about your reasons for town reading said person. if you pick up the quirky thing that you can see makes them town but no one else will actually you believe you for it then all you're doing is confirming them as town for yourself. if you fabricate made up reasons that look more credible to the player base they're more likely to believe your take than the actual reasons you're reading them town for.

    still a good post overall.
    I mean, having to play around bad players is a skill in and of itself, but the actual actual answer is to just play with people who aren't bad enough to do this.

    Lying as a villager has extreme backfire potential and is almost never worth it in my experience. In your example, fabricating reasons to townread someone is literally putting a mindset into the thread that if people correctly read, they will and should wolfread you for. And good players will absolutely pick up on that.

    I overall agree with never lying because lying is always in itself bad.

    I'm not sure I agree with it in this example because some things will just click better for others if you frame it in the right way. Of course convincing others that someone is town for reasons you don't actually believe can be problematic if you're wrong, but it's not like you're 100% locked into those reasons regardless.

    Why do you think good players will pick up on made up reasons for a town read? I've played a long time, with plenty of people across sites that would be considered good, I don't think a single player has ever really noted when my reasons are made up vs. when they're not. As long as your lies have nuance they won't be picked up otherwise making fake reads as scum would always fail too.

  15. ISO #65
    Thread Analyst ComicallyLongUsername's Avatar
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    Amazing analysis, I am going to put this to good use!

  16. ISO #66
    five people have died Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnDeFeatedKing (#64)
    Why do you think good players will pick up on made up reasons for a town read? I've played a long time, with plenty of people across sites that would be considered good, I don't think a single player has ever really noted when my reasons are made up vs. when they're not. As long as your lies have nuance they won't be picked up otherwise making fake reads as scum would always fail too
    Yes, that's kind of the point of the entire game?

    You can't tell us you never get caught lieing as a villager without attempting to claim you never get caught lieing as a wolf.

    Both claims are equally unbelievable.
    Last edited by Apoc; May 1st, 2021 at 04:44 AM.

  17. ISO #67
    Low Hanging Fruit UnDeFeatedKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#66)
    Quote Originally Posted by UnDeFeatedKing (#64)
    Why do you think good players will pick up on made up reasons for a town read? I've played a long time, with plenty of people across sites that would be considered good, I don't think a single player has ever really noted when my reasons are made up vs. when they're not. As long as your lies have nuance they won't be picked up otherwise making fake reads as scum would always fail too
    Yes, that's kind of the point of the entire game?

    You can't tell us you never get caught lieing as a villager without attempting to claim you never get caught lieing as a wolf.

    Both claims are equally unbelievable.
    They aren't really equally unbelievable tho....all of your reasoning is you lying so the chances of you being caught on faulty reasoning is much higher than if you do it selectively as town. I understand the point you're making, but I'm not claiming that I lie about my reasoning as town in such a extreme that all of my reasoning is being made up.

    The reasons I am mislynched as villager also aren't really based on being caught up lying about reads.

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