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Thread: ITAs, UTAs, WeAllTAs

  1. ISO #51
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Hit! No one has died
    Vs
    Miss


    I think years of mashes on POG would have most people there agreeing that MISS is the better option. For both alignments.

    Sucks when being ITA immune ends up being a negative utility role, because one stray hit and you get auto-lynched.

  2. ISO #52
    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    For hit vs miss announcement I prefer hit as a default. Whether it's a wolf or town immune or an angel, it kind of feels bad to me if people might just keep wasting shot after shot with no way of knowing. Saying hit no one died at least gives an ita percent chance of gleaning some info. For wolf angels, they do get something out of it anyways, wolf suddenly has to be the lynch to die, could also have value for day roles you want to ensure get to go off etc. It doesn't even necessarily condemn someone that they didn't die to the shot, decent fake claims are possible tho I will admit people seem inclined to lynch those who survive a hit.

    Not against miss as a thing sometimes as a stronger variant but prefer hit no kill as the default
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  3. ISO #53
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#8)
    I think on the whole ITAs tend to be pro-village, but like any village KP (and perhaps even to a greater degree based on the publicly accountable nature of them) they're a swingy mechanic subject to the whims of whichever voices tend to have thread control at the time. In a game like anni, where the wolves are running circles around the villagers in the thread, the ITA pool is likely to be constricted down to green names, save for the occasional hero shot (which, as you know, doesn't always end well for the shooter, should they miss). This can thin the PoE, sure, but it also drives the game closer and closer to parity.
    If wolves control the thread in a regular game, villagers get lynched. It's exactly the same for ITAs. I dont think the swingyness of village KP has anything to do with how it is used (e.g. sheeping a wolf who is deliberately leading you astray)

    The reason ITAs and Vig's are swingy is because they are instantaneous...and there is no time to correct mistakes made, or allow people to claim appropriately. Lynches also require multiple people to mess up.

    But it goes both ways, i've had perfect cover claims as a wolf completely undone because i got hero shot and didnt get a chance to use them

    Oh, and sometimes an outted wolf gets lucky and kills your claimed cop
    Last edited by Apoc; August 14th, 2019 at 07:00 AM.

  4. ISO #54
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#52)
    For wolf angels, they do get something out of it anyways, wolf suddenly has to be the lynch to die
    ya but when it was a YOLO on a deep wolf

    Its basically a free day peek.


    Ouch. Sure, i guess its better than dieing. But it FeelsBadMan.
    Last edited by Apoc; August 14th, 2019 at 06:59 AM.

  5. ISO #55
    just skimmed the thread but i think the day angel miss/no one died argument was discussed in a mash postgame recently (maybe anni, idr) and iirc most parties agreed that having angels make the first shot that would have hit miss instead was a good idea

    it removes all the dumb "he is angeled" arguments and also removes those annoying days where the village has to lynch the outed angeled wolf

    obviously in the end every host will implement day angel as they want, this would just be my preference

    the important thing is that the chosen method is in the OP imo, not knowing how angels work sucks

  6. ISO #56
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladd (#55)
    just skimmed the thread but i think the day angel miss/no one died argument was discussed in a mash postgame recently (maybe anni, idr) and iirc most parties agreed that having angels make the first shot that would have hit miss instead was a good idea

    it removes all the dumb "he is angeled" arguments and also removes those annoying days where the village has to lynch the outed angeled wolf

    obviously in the end every host will implement day angel as they want, this would just be my preference

    the important thing is that the chosen method is in the OP imo, not knowing how angels work sucks
    Sounds like a cool idea

    In practice though, a 1-shot immunity could result in like 16+ misses? And have that be pretty normal? Seems like a lot of the time its functionally the same as full immunity.

    I dunno. Someone post the math for miss probabilities



    Random Aside
    i believe the modbot jargon is:

    ITA Shield = Hit! Nobody died
    ITA immunity = Miss!
    Last edited by Apoc; August 14th, 2019 at 07:45 AM.

  7. ISO #57
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#56)
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd (#55)
    just skimmed the thread but i think the day angel miss/no one died argument was discussed in a mash postgame recently (maybe anni, idr) and iirc most parties agreed that having angels make the first shot that would have hit miss instead was a good idea

    it removes all the dumb "he is angeled" arguments and also removes those annoying days where the village has to lynch the outed angeled wolf

    obviously in the end every host will implement day angel as they want, this would just be my preference

    the important thing is that the chosen method is in the OP imo, not knowing how angels work sucks
    Sounds like a cool idea

    In practice though, a 1-shot immunity could result in like 16+ misses? And have that be pretty normal? Seems like a lot of the time its functionally the same as full immunity.

    I dunno. Someone post the math for miss probabilities



    Random Aside
    i believe the modbot jargon is:

    ITA Shield = Hit! Nobody died
    ITA immunity = Miss!
    Shield is a hit

    Immunity is a toggle

    I’d love for shield to also be a toggle


    A lot of the issues people had with always miss was that you could just endlessly burn shots for nothing without ever truly knowing and if it only saves one hit it means shots aren’t meaningless. I personally don’t care if there’s 16 misses or something but I understand the issue with the ability to burn infinite shots without any mechanical impact
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  8. ISO #58
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Key difference with 1 time miss is that shots actually have potential to do something
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  9. ISO #59
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    And yeah if people want to read more discussion of hit no one died vs miss there was a bunch in anni postgame
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  10. ISO #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#56)
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd (#55)
    just skimmed the thread but i think the day angel miss/no one died argument was discussed in a mash postgame recently (maybe anni, idr) and iirc most parties agreed that having angels make the first shot that would have hit miss instead was a good idea

    it removes all the dumb "he is angeled" arguments and also removes those annoying days where the village has to lynch the outed angeled wolf

    obviously in the end every host will implement day angel as they want, this would just be my preference

    the important thing is that the chosen method is in the OP imo, not knowing how angels work sucks
    Sounds like a cool idea

    In practice though, a 1-shot immunity could result in like 16+ misses? And have that be pretty normal? Seems like a lot of the time its functionally the same as full immunity.

    I dunno. Someone post the math for miss probabilities



    Random Aside
    i believe the modbot jargon is:

    ITA Shield = Hit! Nobody died
    ITA immunity = Miss!
    i haven t done the math but 16 shots misisng would probably be in the "not that unlikely" category (10-20% range)

    i think it's better than the alternatives though

    ita shield means the wolves use the angel on the daily semi outed wolf that it s almost always a thing in mashes and it basically just becomes a way to waste villa resources and requires no skill to play and is also pretty lame in the way it often forces the lynch

    if you make ita always miss, you'll get costant "he is angeled" arguments and it's probably too strong of a role but if it's in the OP that this is the mechanic used it's probably ~fine

    with 1x immunity, i'd guess the wolves are more likely to use the angel to prevent hero shots on wolves in hero shot range (maybe it s still worth it to use it on the daily outed wolf, dunno, gotta play and see) which requires at least a little bit more skill even if not by much+the pros i listed in my previous post

  11. ISO #61
    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#51)
    Hit! No one has died
    Vs
    Miss


    I think years of mashes on POG would have most people there agreeing that MISS is the better option. For both alignments.

    Sucks when being ITA immune ends up being a negative utility role, because one stray hit and you get auto-lynched.
    simple solution = consider ITA immunity bastard and make the standard operating procedure "miss."

  12. ISO #62
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck (#1)
    Variations on ITA sessions (PrivateTAs, Silent Shots, etc.)
    I personally love silent sessions, but people don't seem to like them in general, i guess it's the lack of instant feedback/flips (Since private sessions typically come with post-session flips).

    They prevent people being cleared for shooting and killing wolves...and give the wolves the chance to shoot who they want.

    But it's also super interesting watching what villagers do when they aren't
    held accountable for their hero shots


    Silent shots are probably better though.

    If you arent giving wolves silent shots or private sessions they better be getting regular dayvigs, because not only are they not able to shoot who they want (usually) they also have to shoot who the village expect them to

  13. ISO #63
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    I also like the MtG format of attack powet and Hitpoints

    Fun change to the mechanics, has to be run manually though pretty much.

  14. ISO #64
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Also if you want to open a can of worms we can discuss pre-randing shots vs randing them on the fly and see how many irrational preferences people have

  15. ISO #65
    GOAT Tier Jaleb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#63)
    I also like the MtG format of attack powet and Hitpoints

    Fun change to the mechanics, has to be run manually though pretty much.
    I actually have an idea to get around that. You just give everyone 100% ita accuracy and X bp-vests

    Last edited by Jaleb; August 14th, 2019 at 08:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empoof (#4961)
    it was jaleb

    @Jaleb is a god
    ⚡🍺Frog 🍺⚡Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    ok dudes
    you can discuss the event here if you want

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:05 AM
    Done, will take my prize now
    I do have a 1900 rating in solving tactics :smiley:

    AndrewGreve(night vig/39%ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    hey
    i dont know chess tactics
    should I try?

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    1. Bf6 2. Qh7 3. Rf7 4. Nh6 5. Re5 6. ... Qh3 7. Qd8 8. h7 9. ... Ne5+; fxe5 h5 10. ... Bg1; Kg3 Qf2; Kh3 Qh2 i you want the answer, not that it matters
    if*

    ⚡🍺Frog 🍺⚡Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    Jaleb, you're lowkey Magnus

  16. ISO #66
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    .
    Last edited by Apoc; August 14th, 2019 at 12:59 PM.

  17. ISO #67
    Calculated. bopolis's Avatar
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    misread thread title and thought this was gonna be about UTIs

    what a let down
    Cow - Today at 1:02 AM
    This EoD has given me a deep and profound understanding regarding what it might be liking playing with me when i do stupid $#@! as villager.

  18. ISO #68
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#64)
    Also if you want to open a can of worms we can discuss pre-randing shots vs randing them on the fly and see how many irrational preferences people have
    When doing manual ITAs, I rand at SoD.

  19. ISO #69
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    Miss = modified dodge rate (Angel/-100% vulnerability)
    No one died = vest/shield/immunity

  20. ISO #70
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#69)
    Miss = modified dodge rate (Angel/-100% vulnerability)
    No one died = vest/shield/immunity
    Just be consistent and spell it out to the players, really. The players need to know, otherwise you're more or less lying to them.

  21. ISO #71
    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#64)
    Also if you want to open a can of worms we can discuss pre-randing shots vs randing them on the fly and see how many irrational preferences people have
    You're right, it is irrational to be against pre-randing. If you read the article by the owner of random.org, you will find that the numbers we get were randed in the past. They are not generated from contemporaneous sources. This does not make them any less random, nor is the method any more susceptible to what is probably non-existent abuse by hosts.

  22. ISO #72
    GOAT Tier Jaleb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#68)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#64)
    Also if you want to open a can of worms we can discuss pre-randing shots vs randing them on the fly and see how many irrational preferences people have
    When doing manual ITAs, I rand at SoD.
    Don't tell anyone and no one will notice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empoof (#4961)
    it was jaleb

    @Jaleb is a god
    ⚡🍺Frog 🍺⚡Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    ok dudes
    you can discuss the event here if you want

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:05 AM
    Done, will take my prize now
    I do have a 1900 rating in solving tactics :smiley:

    AndrewGreve(night vig/39%ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    hey
    i dont know chess tactics
    should I try?

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    1. Bf6 2. Qh7 3. Rf7 4. Nh6 5. Re5 6. ... Qh3 7. Qd8 8. h7 9. ... Ne5+; fxe5 h5 10. ... Bg1; Kg3 Qf2; Kh3 Qh2 i you want the answer, not that it matters
    if*

    ⚡🍺Frog 🍺⚡Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    Jaleb, you're lowkey Magnus

  23. ISO #73
    JAMES MCCLOWN Frog's Avatar
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    There's a lot to unpack

    For the current system of open In Thread Attacks, I'm concerned about a few aspects here.

    1. Historical rate of Town shot accuracy

    2. Number of clears and semi-clears per cycle

    3. Kills per cycle in total, per side, and assumed split of kills based on historical accuracy

    The games I've hosted run higher than 15% average per player for a few reasons. Part of that design is to make sure the game doesn't run longer than about a week. Another reason is because I don't like end game swing based around one side having extra killing power.

    The parts of this thread that interest me are what people actually want and don't want in their games. I'll keep it in mind going forward.

    It also got me thinking more about how anonymous shot variants could work more into games. On an automated level it would be really cool but that'd be worth another thread because of the extra implementation.

  24. ISO #74
    GOAT Tier LordQuas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zapp Brannigan (#7)
    I pretty much agree with Mill Crab. ITAs are definitely pro-village.

    "Hit! No one died!" OR "Miss!" when a player is immune or protected. Which is better for the game and why?
    Hit, no one died sucks for wolves. Miss sucks for villagers.

    I tend to side with "Hit! No one died!" because I think the host publicly lying to players should not be a thing. And it's just annoying to have the guessing game, especially when most people don't understand probability.
    bump this

    also I just KNEW the first post in this thread was going to be Zork complaining about ITAs
    :wiwe

  25. ISO #75
    GOAT Tier LordQuas's Avatar
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    a lot of people complain about how ITA immunity w/ hit no one died is "negative utility," and how a player surviving a shot is usually lynched, "even if it's one random stray shot."

    Here's the thing, if you're getting hit from that stray shot and you DON'T have ITA immunity, you're dead right there. Getting to live UNTIL the lynch, and maybe even have a shot of talking your way out IS utility. You often waste a lynch. If a player survives a day vig shot because of being dayvig immune (aka a vest), it doesn't remain mysterious on whether or not they survived getting shot. If a player should hit an ITA, I don't think it should remain mysterious on whether or not the player was shot.

    ITA immune with hit no one died is not useless at all, and anyone saying otherwise is lying, either to you or themselves
    :wiwe

  26. ISO #76
    GOAT Tier bearsquared's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas (#75)
    a lot of people complain about how ITA immunity w/ hit no one died is "negative utility," and how a player surviving a shot is usually lynched, "even if it's one random stray shot."

    Here's the thing, if you're getting hit from that stray shot and you DON'T have ITA immunity, you're dead right there. Getting to live UNTIL the lynch, and maybe even have a shot of talking your way out IS utility. You often waste a lynch. If a player survives a day vig shot because of being dayvig immune (aka a vest), it doesn't remain mysterious on whether or not they survived getting shot. If a player should hit an ITA, I don't think it should remain mysterious on whether or not the player was shot.

    ITA immune with hit no one died is not useless at all, and anyone saying otherwise is lying, either to you or themselves
    I'm not sure anyone is arguing that it's useless from that I'm seen, but it's more that "Hit! No one died!" often isn't much different than them just dying. It's viewed as outing so players immediately start analyzing interactions, and looking for potential spew. Yeah, they don't die from the shot, but they do die, and it plays out more or less the same except they actually flip at EOD instead of when they're shot.

    So yeah, it's not worse for wolves necessarily, but it is pretty much the same the vast majority of the time. Or feels the same. Lissa alluded to this, but you don't angel someone to have them die at the lynch instead of ITAs. You do it so they can live. "Hit! No one died." feels bad, and sucks ass even though it's technically better than them dying when they were shot.

    All the shots missing also feels bad, but for different reasons. Players don't like being lied to, and it feels like they're being lied to. Shots missing does allow a day angel mechanic to actually do what you want it to do i.e. get a player through the day alive (barring a lynch).

  27. ISO #77
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas (#75)
    a lot of people complain about how ITA immunity w/ hit no one died is "negative utility," and how a player surviving a shot is usually lynched, "even if it's one random stray shot."

    Here's the thing, if you're getting hit from that stray shot and you DON'T have ITA immunity, you're dead right there. Getting to live UNTIL the lynch, and maybe even have a shot of talking your way out IS utility. You often waste a lynch. If a player survives a day vig shot because of being dayvig immune (aka a vest), it doesn't remain mysterious on whether or not they survived getting shot. If a player should hit an ITA, I don't think it should remain mysterious on whether or not the player was shot.

    ITA immune with hit no one died is not useless at all, and anyone saying otherwise is lying, either to you or themselves
    you're comparing the ITA shield to having nothing

    we're comparing the ITA shield to ITA immunity (e.g. Miss!)


    But ya, obviously surviving and wasting a day's lynch is better than dieing outright
    Last edited by Apoc; August 16th, 2019 at 05:50 PM.

  28. ISO #78
    Calculated. bopolis's Avatar
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    #noMoreDayAngels
    Cow - Today at 1:02 AM
    This EoD has given me a deep and profound understanding regarding what it might be liking playing with me when i do stupid $#@! as villager.

  29. ISO #79
    Angels in general (night and day) could work better as "prevent the first kill attempt this phase". Gives wolves counterplay around them (using multiple kills), gives village a way to play around their own bad day angels (if this was ever a thing).

  30. ISO #80
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas (#75)
    a lot of people complain about how ITA immunity w/ hit no one died is "negative utility," and how a player surviving a shot is usually lynched, "even if it's one random stray shot."

    Here's the thing, if you're getting hit from that stray shot and you DON'T have ITA immunity, you're dead right there. Getting to live UNTIL the lynch, and maybe even have a shot of talking your way out IS utility. You often waste a lynch. If a player survives a day vig shot because of being dayvig immune (aka a vest), it doesn't remain mysterious on whether or not they survived getting shot. If a player should hit an ITA, I don't think it should remain mysterious on whether or not the player was shot.

    ITA immune with hit no one died is not useless at all, and anyone saying otherwise is lying, either to you or themselves
    I didn’t say it was useless

    I said it doesn’t actually save you in a long term meaningful way ever and I dislike that personally
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  31. ISO #81
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by bopolis (#78)
    #noMoreAngels
    FTFY

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