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Thread: ITAs, UTAs, WeAllTAs

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    Loser Beck's Avatar
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    ITAs, UTAs, WeAllTAs

    In light of our recent Mob Psycho 100 Mishmash, I wanted to start a thread devoted specifically to the discussion of ITAs; how they work, how we want them to work, how they should work, as well as their place in large-games, balancing around them, and the many, many roles that involve our favourite shoot-em-in-the-face mechanic.

    A few conversation starters I wanted to suggest, then I'll loop back around with my own opinions soon.

    • Base ITA Hit % - Is 15% reasonable?
    • Balancing a game around ITAs, how do you do it?
    • Are ITAs pro-wolf or pro-village? Why? How?
    • Variations on ITA sessions (PrivateTAs, Silent Shots, etc.)
    • ITA roles: multi-shots, ITA immunity, nerfing, increasing/decreasing another's ITA.
    • "Hit! No one died!" OR "Miss!" when a player is immune or protected. Which is better for the game and why?
    • Lengthening or shortening ITA sessions? Increasing or decreasing the number of sessions per day?
    • ITA Modifiers: Immunity, Vulnerability, Hit Chance, # of Shots, BPV, etc.
    • Modbot & ITAs - What works, what doesn't? Any QoL changes necessary?
    • Interesting statistics or experiences related to ITAs.

    These are all off the top of my head, and there's probably plenty more concepts or mechanics surrounding ITAs that I've forgotten so please feel free to start the conversation here. For a mechanic that is so critical to many large-games we host on MU I think it's important that we have a stronger dialogue about how they operate and what we expect from ITAs.
    leaping up into the air getting juiced up beyond belief

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    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    I don't like ITAs because they frequently are 100% in mashes and those folks take hero shots that have a hit rate no better than rand (kills town 3/4 of the time).

    Even when they're just 15%, they have a chance to kill a player, which ends that player's participation. Death should be by lynch. I don't know when it got popular to make games as short as possible. What is wrong with one lynch and one factional kill per night? So what if the game is big and takes 3 weeks to complete? Very few people are going to be still playing that third week. The queue has a 2-week gap between large games, so it's not like there is competition in a major way. I'm not saying there shouldn't be more than 2 deaths per cycle, I'm just saying ITAs are like candy--a brief sugar high then what, they can't post any more.

    I tried as an experiment making it so you had to be hit 3 times by ITA to die (closed cemetery, resurrected after the first two hits) while increasing the to-hit percentage. I'll be honest, the experiment was meh. Just letting you know.

    One feature I think would be fun to add to modbot to facilitate a different version of ITAs is for the ability of a player to send a PM to modbot instead of posting in red bold in the game thread, such that when the PM is received, modbot posts "A shot rings out!" with either a "no one died" or a "Player X is dead" automatic post.

    In combination with or separate from that feature, there should be a way to do Poison ITAs, so that when you hit a player, they are simply poisoned and die either at that EOD or the following EOD depending on what the host sets in modbot. This is moving in a direction of trying to make mashes as modbot-friendly as possible so that you don't have to go the manual route necessarily.

    I prefer giving players roles like poisoner which facilitates the death but stretches out the targeted player's participation as long as possible--best of both worlds. Instead of ITAs, you can make them poisoner, suicide bomber, double voter, arsonist--lots of ways to kill that are creative, unique within that particular setup, and don't just blammo before the target gets a chance to participate that day. Yeah thats another thing, ITAs are bad for that reason as well...I'm all for death, don't get me wrong, but it should be at EOD or SOD (or as close as possible to those times) so everyone's schedules are respected for the duration of the game day.

    /rant

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    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    I will do a paper this fall on how town KP is not all it's cracked up to be, and an important component of proving or disproving that theory is going to be my painful and painstaking analysis of night vigs, day vigs, and ITA shots (miss or not) by town and what percentage those were directed at town vis-a-vis the percentage of town players alive at the time of shot and whether the shots were better, worse, or at rand.

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    Soul Reader Chandra's Avatar
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    Suggestion: Nerf base ITA hit to 10%, and after every miss, the target player gets a 10% dodge nerf for the rest of the ITA phase (or day phase?), stacking infinitely. So 2nd shot on them will be 20% to hit, 3rd shot will be 30%, etc. Not sure if that can be programmed.

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    Soul Reader Mill Crab's Avatar
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    Some random thoughts of mine.

    -15% is fine. I don't think going higher is the way to go as games would just end even earlier. 15% giving on average 10-12 deaths in the big games down to 5ish on D2 in the smaller mashes feels like a decent amount of death and it doesn't get boring when people aren't being eliminated. My biggest pet peeve is actually people who complain after 5 misses that player X is angeled when that's still basically a coin flip to happen, but that's more about people needing to better understand how probability works.

    -I think ITA's lean pro-village. The bigger mashes are always going to have people who aren't contributing and town needs a way to clear out the low-posters without giving them oodles of vigs/other kp, because I think that would end up swinging too far to townsided. 15% shots let multiple people take a stance/shot on a person and that gives more info for town to analyze.

    -On variants I'm strongly against sessions where flips are delayed until the end of the session. It gives wolves free rein to push hero shots and can quickly spiral to a chain of dead townies. I'd probably be against everyone having a silent shot session because of the lack of accountability. Having each side with one or two of those roles is fine, giving everyone one sits wrong with me.

    -Two one-hour long sessions feels fine to me, but that's also all I've ever played with. I could see a third session working to give as many people a chance to shoot. Don't think I'd lengthen the sessions because then a larger chunk of the phase gets eaten up with shots lists. Three half hour sessions might be interesting to try?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cron (#16505)
    another is mash

    Another powerful game of the city of crappy

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    Tunnel King Phighter's Avatar
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    15% is too small. 20% would make a huge difference -- you go from 1 in 8 shots to 1 in 5 shots and it seems more reasonable for wolves to become engineers of death and for town to not have to waste an entire process to figure out if someone is ita immune.

    EDIT:
    While I'm here, expanding on this:

    If someone is wolfy enough to deserve to be shot five times in the face/in a row/during a game, they should probably die. It's not like they're doing a good job of hiding if they're a wolf, villagers are just being held back by an RNG from hunting down their targets.

    I don't see how the adjustment would go against either side. 25% is too much.
    Last edited by Phighter; August 13th, 2019 at 03:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#233)
    So here's the deal, Champ.

    1. Phighter's $#@!ing with you.

  7. ISO #7
    I pretty much agree with Mill Crab. ITAs are definitely pro-village.

    "Hit! No one died!" OR "Miss!" when a player is immune or protected. Which is better for the game and why?
    Hit, no one died sucks for wolves. Miss sucks for villagers.

    I tend to side with "Hit! No one died!" because I think the host publicly lying to players should not be a thing. And it's just annoying to have the guessing game, especially when most people don't understand probability.

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    Nuke Possum Springs Ampharos's Avatar Administrator
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    As a disclaimer to this post, I've only ever hosted one game with ITAs (this year's anni) and I rarely play them.

    The feeling I got in anni - and I think most of the other hosts would agree with me - is that 15% is a touch too low. The number of whiffs during ITA windows would have been borderline comical if it wasn't directly contributing to the village getting absolutely slaughtered.

    I think on the whole ITAs tend to be pro-village, but like any village KP (and perhaps even to a greater degree based on the publicly accountable nature of them) they're a swingy mechanic subject to the whims of whichever voices tend to have thread control at the time. In a game like anni, where the wolves are running circles around the villagers in the thread, the ITA pool is likely to be constricted down to green names, save for the occasional hero shot (which, as you know, doesn't always end well for the shooter, should they miss). This can thin the PoE, sure, but it also drives the game closer and closer to parity.

    I don't think swingy mechanics are inherently bad; I think the entire point of a game with ITAs is to be high-variance and somewhat chaotic, and a lot of players find that fun. It is, however, something that a host absolutely needs to be cognizant of when designing a game.

    I'm in favor of "Hit! No one died." for much the same reasons Zack is. I waffled on this a bunch during anni, and Lissa posed a counterargument of "Hit no one died basically condemns the person to death via lynch anyways, and a day angel should actually save the person it targets." There's a way to counter this, however - start making ITA immune village roles. Town day angel, town ITA immune, whatever. The more greenflips result from that message, the less anti-wolf resolving such a scenario in this manner becomes.
    DM Ampharos#1651 on Discord with any suggestions/comments/complaints/unwarranted compliments
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    Soul Reader Mill Crab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phighter (#6)
    15% is too small. 20% would make a huge difference -- you go from 1 in 8 shots to 1 in 5 shots and it seems more reasonable for wolves to become engineers of death and for town to not have to waste an entire process to figure out if someone is ita immune.

    EDIT:
    While I'm here, expanding on this:

    If someone is wolfy enough to deserve to be shot five times in the face/in a row/during a game, they should probably die. It's not like they're doing a good job of hiding if they're a wolf, villagers are just being held back by an RNG from hunting down their targets.

    I don't see how the adjustment would go against either side. 25% is too much.
    Bumping it to 20% could potentially knock a full day off of games. A smaller 40-person game like Sam and Fuzzy goes from 5.5 hits D2 to 7 (assuming you start D2 with 36 alive). Big games like Anni go from 18 to 24 hits on average D2 (assuming you have 120 alive at SOD). So games probably start ending on Thursday/Friday instead of pushing into the weekend. Which is fine if that's what people want (I know zork had a point about wanting games to go *longer*). Might be good if people who tend to endgame mashes had an opinion there.

    Definitely a fair point about the people being shot 5 times probably deserving to die regardless of alignment. When the RNG runs cold it can be very frustrating. I'm personally fine with it since that's how the cookie crumbles sometimes, but maybe a 5% bump wouldn't speed up the game as much as I think it would.

    To the Hit vs. Miss question, I pretty much agree with Zack. Maybe mash hosts could start giving out 1 or 2 vests to townies so it isn't an automatic scum claim when it pops up?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cron (#16505)
    another is mash

    Another powerful game of the city of crappy

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    Soul Reader Mill Crab's Avatar
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    I think too long about posts sometimes :P +1 Amy's role suggestions
    Quote Originally Posted by Cron (#16505)
    another is mash

    Another powerful game of the city of crappy

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    GOAT Tier Shad's Avatar
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    I like the idea of making day angels 1x so wolves get some benefit of it beyond prolonged execution but entire sessions aren't wasted blasting an unkillable target.
    Quote Originally Posted by Panther
    I thought you were a nerd last week but then I saw you say you play golf and remember you said you chewed so you're some kind of unicorn or something

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    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#8)
    As a disclaimer to this post, I've only ever hosted one game with ITAs (this year's anni) and I rarely play them.

    The feeling I got in anni - and I think most of the other hosts would agree with me - is that 15% is a touch too low. The number of whiffs during ITA windows would have been borderline comical if it wasn't directly contributing to the village getting absolutely slaughtered.

    I think on the whole ITAs tend to be pro-village, but like any village KP (and perhaps even to a greater degree based on the publicly accountable nature of them) they're a swingy mechanic subject to the whims of whichever voices tend to have thread control at the time. In a game like anni, where the wolves are running circles around the villagers in the thread, the ITA pool is likely to be constricted down to green names, save for the occasional hero shot (which, as you know, doesn't always end well for the shooter, should they miss). This can thin the PoE, sure, but it also drives the game closer and closer to parity.

    I don't think swingy mechanics are inherently bad; I think the entire point of a game with ITAs is to be high-variance and somewhat chaotic, and a lot of players find that fun. It is, however, something that a host absolutely needs to be cognizant of when designing a game.

    I'm in favor of "Hit! No one died." for much the same reasons Zack is. I waffled on this a bunch during anni, and Lissa posed a counterargument of "Hit no one died basically condemns the person to death via lynch anyways, and a day angel should actually save the person it targets." There's a way to counter this, however - start making ITA immune village roles. Town day angel, town ITA immune, whatever. The more greenflips result from that message, the less anti-wolf resolving such a scenario in this manner becomes.
    i might write more words on this later (probably) but this is directly relevant to me heh

    as someone who has played quite a few mashes i don't agree, no. i think 15% is correct personally. i'd say the problem during anni lay more in people not shooting, but i'm personally a fan of 15%. 20% feels extremely high to me.

    i think i personally fall a touch on the lower end of the average range in terms of mash kill rate preference in general though (read: generally running into the weekend so like d6/7 is where i want a normal sized mash to end; most mashes these days are already shorter than this i think?)

    i personally think hit no one died $#@!ing sucks and i'd strongly rather have no angels at all. in a world run based on purely my preferences i'd run miss angels all day every day, but enough people dislike them that i wouldn't run it like that again in reality. i think my perfect medium is a suggestion that got made of "miss vests" or angels that produce a single miss on what would have been a hit, then cease to have further effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

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    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    i don't think making village ita immune roles counters what i want to fix with miss angels, really. i want my angels to not display any indication of being angeled, at all, because in my personal opinion that sort of defeats the point. but i do hear the counterargument that with miss angels you can just sink shots in someone forever with no way of knowing if it matters or is useful
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

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    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    (also even if ita immunity roles are made to be rand in theory they still aren't in practice. village day angels and wolf day angels don't target at rand. village ita immune is rand and may end up on a reasonable theoretical wolf day angel target but may quite well not.

    the only way to actually make it close to meaningless gets to the point of giving like... at least 5-6 villagers or something ita immunity, and making that also a known thing, and that gets to the point of producing an extremely weird ita dynamic in terms of how many people can't be targeted)
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  15. ISO #15
    Why aren't there ita immune villagers to begin with?

    Also I hate itas because people hero shoot me, I would rather just have access to multiple lynches in a day phase

  16. ISO #16
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#2)
    I don't like ITAs because they frequently are 100% in mashes and those folks take hero shots that have a hit rate no better than rand (kills town 3/4 of the time).

    Even when they're just 15%, they have a chance to kill a player, which ends that player's participation. Death should be by lynch. I don't know when it got popular to make games as short as possible. What is wrong with one lynch and one factional kill per night? So what if the game is big and takes 3 weeks to complete? Very few people are going to be still playing that third week. The queue has a 2-week gap between large games, so it's not like there is competition in a major way. I'm not saying there shouldn't be more than 2 deaths per cycle, I'm just saying ITAs are like candy--a brief sugar high then what, they can't post any more.

    I tried as an experiment making it so you had to be hit 3 times by ITA to die (closed cemetery, resurrected after the first two hits) while increasing the to-hit percentage. I'll be honest, the experiment was meh. Just letting you know.

    One feature I think would be fun to add to modbot to facilitate a different version of ITAs is for the ability of a player to send a PM to modbot instead of posting in red bold in the game thread, such that when the PM is received, modbot posts "A shot rings out!" with either a "no one died" or a "Player X is dead" automatic post.

    In combination with or separate from that feature, there should be a way to do Poison ITAs, so that when you hit a player, they are simply poisoned and die either at that EOD or the following EOD depending on what the host sets in modbot. This is moving in a direction of trying to make mashes as modbot-friendly as possible so that you don't have to go the manual route necessarily.

    I prefer giving players roles like poisoner which facilitates the death but stretches out the targeted player's participation as long as possible--best of both worlds. Instead of ITAs, you can make them poisoner, suicide bomber, double voter, arsonist--lots of ways to kill that are creative, unique within that particular setup, and don't just blammo before the target gets a chance to participate that day. Yeah thats another thing, ITAs are bad for that reason as well...I'm all for death, don't get me wrong, but it should be at EOD or SOD (or as close as possible to those times) so everyone's schedules are respected for the duration of the game day.

    /rant
    i mean i think you're saying here that you just fundamentally... dislike the sort of thing a lot of people seek out when they decide to play a mash / the things that make people who like itas like itas

    which is 100% fine but it's not a "problem" with mashes per se in the sense of... normal mashes should be made different, because i'd say most people or at least a large portion seek them out for at least some of exactly the things you're listing off that you dislike.

    as long as people know what they're getting into there's nothing wrong with trying different mechs, though, but i do think your target audience for games that fundamentally diverge from a typical mash is going to be a bit different than that of a mash
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

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    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by [NSM] Mikey (#15)
    Why aren't there ita immune villagers to begin with?

    Also I hate itas because people hero shoot me, I would rather just have access to multiple lynches in a day phase
    there are ita immune villagers sometimes
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  18. ISO #18
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck (#1)
    In light of our recent Mob Psycho 100 Mishmash, I wanted to start a thread devoted specifically to the discussion of ITAs; how they work, how we want them to work, how they should work, as well as their place in large-games, balancing around them, and the many, many roles that involve our favourite shoot-em-in-the-face mechanic.

    A few conversation starters I wanted to suggest, then I'll loop back around with my own opinions soon.

    • Base ITA Hit % - Is 15% reasonable?
    • Balancing a game around ITAs, how do you do it?
    • Are ITAs pro-wolf or pro-village? Why? How?
    • Variations on ITA sessions (PrivateTAs, Silent Shots, etc.)
    • ITA roles: multi-shots, ITA immunity, nerfing, increasing/decreasing another's ITA.
    • "Hit! No one died!" OR "Miss!" when a player is immune or protected. Which is better for the game and why?
    • Lengthening or shortening ITA sessions? Increasing or decreasing the number of sessions per day?
    • ITA Modifiers: Immunity, Vulnerability, Hit Chance, # of Shots, BPV, etc.
    • Modbot & ITAs - What works, what doesn't? Any QoL changes necessary?
    • Interesting statistics or experiences related to ITAs.

    These are all off the top of my head, and there's probably plenty more concepts or mechanics surrounding ITAs that I've forgotten so please feel free to start the conversation here. For a mechanic that is so critical to many large-games we host on MU I think it's important that we have a stronger dialogue about how they operate and what we expect from ITAs.
    in terms of balance it's a source of town kp but not in the same sense as vigs

    they are provillage for sure.

    private itas i understand the theoretical idea behind on a balance level but they aren't really fun imo, they remove what i find fun about itas personally, i would rather a game be balanced around normal itas.

    role/etc silent shots are fine, multi shots immunity nerfing boosting etc are fine, just a matter of how much ita manip you want how big the game is what else is in the setup etc. i personally quite like ita manip stuff

    session lengths and counts are generally fine imo

    partial % immunity i'd kinda like to see get more use. the way vulnerability works now is extremely silly and i'm not sure there's anyone who actually thinks it makes sense honestly. hit chance variation like manip i like a fair bit. bpv w/e same category wrt itas as immunity

    i personally think how it works in modbot is fine


    i dunno, i've played a lot of games with itas and i'm personally pretty satisfied with the standard ways they work. i think the only common ita thing i really hate is uh, hit no one has died style angeling, lol, and in terms of modbot just the way vulnerability works, when a multiplier would be significantly more interesting design wise (both existing would be cool actually, for options, but the lack of a multiplier is annoying)

    i personally prefer on a play level roles getting revealed by host vs modbot so there's the time delay but that's kind of a silly side thing
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  19. ISO #19
    I'm not sure itas are pro town even, since I see wolves win mashes way more often

  20. ISO #20
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by [NSM] Mikey (#19)
    I'm not sure itas are pro town even, since I see wolves win mashes way more often
    itas used well and not taken over by wolves or just let run wild are pro town
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  21. ISO #21
    Definitely SmartBomb Charmander's Avatar
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    bearsquared posting on an alt here, and I don't feel like switching accounts.

    Edit: And this turned into a wall even though I didn't want it to be. Added TL;DRs, and you can read my boring bull$#@! if you really want to in the spoilers.

    Edit 2: Oh $#@! me it's still a wall. Whatever. Read it or don't.




    • Base ITA Hit % - Is 15% reasonable?


    TL;DR: Yep. If changed 20% is better than 10% by a lot, but I think 15% is fine as is.

    Reasonable? Yes. Longer answer is it's always going to depend on the setup. Bigger game means more KP if you want it to end in reasonable amount of time. Base ITA Accuracy/Hit Rate (will use these terms interchangeably) should be a conscious factor in the design of the game. The higher base accuracy, the more alternative sources of KP you need. The lower the base accuracy, the less alternative sources of KP you need. There's always a tradeoff.

    If it's going to be changed I think we'd all agree that it's going to +/- some of multiple 5. 10% feels too low to me as a standard. 20% feels high, but less out of whack to me than 10% does. Unless there's a compelling reason (and preferably backed by data), I'd be strongly in favor of keeping the base accuracy at 15% for no other reason than that's what everyone is used to, and I don't think there's anything to indicate that it's an unreasonable hit rate.


    • Balancing a game around ITAs, how do you do it?


    TL;DR: You don't. Too complicated to make any kind of reasoned attempts to balance around, and rand is going to dominate the outcome more than minor setup tweaks for ITAs.

    Outside of adjusting the KP given to both sides, I wouldn't be overly concerned with it. A large game is going to be swingy if there's enough KP to keep about a week long, and with that much KP floating around it's going to be incredibly high variance. If you remove KP in the form of ITAs, and replace them with roles, then you're trading one kind of variance for another, and you get games where most of one faction's KP roles were blasted by the other, or God forbid they cross fire, and the game lasts over two weeks. ITAs at least allow you to have a fairly good estimate for game length.

    ITAs certainly affect game balance, but other factors like power roles, and the rand especially can have such a larger impact I'm not sure attempting to factor it in more than we already are is going to significantly improve player experience.


    • Are ITAs pro-wolf or pro-village? Why? How?


    TL;DR: Depends on the rand. I really don't think it favors one faction or the other by any significant margin on average, and it's going to be incredibly hard to prove one way or the other.

    They're both and neither. It depends a lot on the player list, which shots happen to hit on a given day, and the rand. ITAs are going to be town sided if there are a lot of good town players that rolled town, have good reads, and have taken command of the shots list. They're going to be wolf sided if the village is in shambles, without loud voices with good reads leading shots, or simply disorganized. If one faction runs hotter than the sun on a given day with their shots, and hits all their targets, and the other side doesn't then it's going to favor that faction. Someone can try to run the numbers, but there are a ton of variables, and non-quantitative factors like how the rand turned out (average player skill of factions, and who got what role) that I'd be skeptical of the results either way. I don't think there have been enough large games without ITAs that I can even guess based on feelings. I really don't think it matters.


    • Variations on ITA sessions (PrivateTAs, Silent Shots, etc.)


    As things that exist in some amount, they're fine, sure. Depends on the setup. Making them private in general makes them an entirely different mechanic that I have no experience with so someone can give it a try if they want, but gut reaction is it would be worse for what I typically think of when I think of a mash.

    • ITA roles: multi-shots, ITA immunity, nerfing, increasing/decreasing another's ITA.


    I think one of the biggest advantages of ITAs is that they add a large design space to mashes because of how many levers you can tweak, and an enormous design space if manual ITAs are your thing.

    • "Hit! No one died!" OR "Miss!" when a player is immune or protected. Which is better for the game and why?


    TL;DR: Dealer's choice/pick your poison. Both have pros, and cons. Gun to my head the former.

    Given the current meta, the former is seen as outing, and the latter feels bastard to a substantial subset of players. I'd the say former is better in a situation where players had to actually make a decision still instead of it being a mechanical thing where they always lynch them, but that's the not the world we live in so the latter. If you think it's bastard then maybe don't have a day angel role in your game I guess.


    • Lengthening or shortening ITA sessions? Increasing or decreasing the number of sessions per day?


    TL;DR: An hour long session in each half seems to be a pretty good formula. A single window 1 hour after SOD to 1 hour before EOD might be worth a try for simplicity's sake.

    This might be a hot take, but I think having a single ITA session that lasts from 1 hour after SOD to 1 hour before EOD makes things easier for everyone, and it isn't clear that much of value will be lost. No one pops into ask "when are ITAs" anymore, and it makes it easier for players to take a shot when they feel comfortable doing so rather than whenever they happened to have time to get into the thread during the ITA window. Probably going to be easier on our Australian friends too. Think of the Australians. Having a single long session probably takes away some of the chaos, and possibly excitement/fun as a result. It might be worth a shot to try though.

    Beyond that, an hour long session in the middle of the first half, and an hour long session in the middle of the second half seems to be a pretty good way to do things. The vast majority of players should be able to find time to take a shot in one or the other, and having everyone pile into the thread at once is usually pretty fun.


    • ITA Modifiers: Immunity, Vulnerability, Hit Chance, # of Shots, BPV, etc.
    • Modbot & ITAs - What works, what doesn't? Any QoL changes necessary?


    TL;DR: I don't like how vulnerability works currently. I'd prefer to have accuracy, dodge, and vulnerability as various modifiers. Vests/Immunity fine. QoL change I'd love is conditional modifiers e.g. a role that shoots with 10% higher accuracy when targeting a player with a specific role or any member of the mafia, or a role that dodges shots fired by town 10% of the time.

    Gonna use this bullet point to talk about my ITA wish list because I think the way they currently work is sort of un-intuitive, and doesn't support some things that I think allow for some cool designs.

    Accuracy affects how likely you are to hit a player with a shot, but if I remember correctly vulnerability currently implemented in Modbot works such that a player's chance to hit is the greater of their accuracy or their target's vulnerability. So if a player has a 50% accuracy, and they shoot a player with 15% vulnerability, the chance to hit is 50%. If the target's vulnerability is 60%, the chance to hit is 60%. This feels un-intuitive to me, and not something that anyone would necessarily ask for.

    My wish list mechanics would be accuracy (chance to hit target with shot), dodge (reduces chance to be hit), and vulnerability (increases chance to be hit). Ideally each would have additive and multiplicative modifiers as options. Base accuracy would be whatever, and dodge and vulnerability would most likely be 0% for most games. An additive modifier would add to the base number e.g. 15% accuracy + 15% additional accuracy = 30% accuracy. A multiplicative modifier would multiply the base number e.g. 15% accuracy * 2x accuracy multiplier = 30% accuracy. Consequently multiplicative bonuses for dodge and vulnerability aren't going to be very useful if the base amount for both is 0, but whatever no reason not have both.

    Accuracy would work how it currently works. Vulnerability would work as an additive bonus to accuracy. A player with 15% accuracy targets a player with 15% vulnerability, and the shot will hit 30% of the time.

    Dodge could be implemented in a couple ways that would feel intuitive. The first is just make it straight up negative vulnerability. A player with 15% computer accuracy targets a player with 15% vulnerability, and 15% dodge, and the shot hits 15% of the time. The second would be a second roll done by the target to see if they dodge e.g. a shot against them would hit so they roll with a 15% chance to dodge, and the shot just misses if they succeed. The second form here is more powerful, and matches the flavor of dodging more, but is mechanically more complex. Not sure the extra complexity would be worth it.

    Vests, and immunity are fine in theory, but you have the whole "Hit! No one died." versus "Miss!" debate with this one still. If dodge is actually a thing then I guess vests/immunity could always be "Hit! No one died.", and dodges are "Miss!". If dodging is a second roll, giving a player a 100% chance to dodge and seeing "Miss!" doesn't really feel bastard to me in a strange way.

    I'd love if it ITAs could be automated so players could have conditional bonuses like a role that shoots with 10% higher accuracy when targeting a player with a specific role or any member of the mafia, or a role that dodges shots fired by town 10% of the time. The two mashes I've worked on had roles with these kinds of abilities, and I think the designs were worthwhile. Both had manual ITAs, and there were mistakes made resolving them both times.

  22. ISO #22
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charmander (#21)
    Having a single long session probably takes away some of the chaos, and possibly excitement/fun as a result.
    this would be my personal concern and i don't think i personally would find one long session as enjoyable; a lot of what i get out of it is absolutely the intensity, buildup, etc.

    i think there's definitely merit to the idea and it wouldn't be a bad thing to experiment with, but i think it'd take a lot out of the dynamic as it currently stands
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  23. ISO #23
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    immunity works like the second option you're suggesting for dodge right now as far as i know. you can set it to percents between 0 and 100 it's not a on/off toggle

    a thing i'd really really like to see is modbot support for miss on ita shields, like. a toggle like for immunity. i'd think it should be fairly simple to implement?

    additive and multiplicative as options for both dodge/vuln is a pretty cool idea
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  24. ISO #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#20)
    Quote Originally Posted by [NSM] Mikey (#19)
    I'm not sure itas are pro town even, since I see wolves win mashes way more often
    itas used well and not taken over by wolves or just let run wild are pro town
    So itas are not pro town

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    Definitely SmartBomb Charmander's Avatar
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    That took a while to write, and I agree with most of what Lissa has said. I think she's right in that "Hit! No one died." condemns the player to death right now, and it sucks ass, but "Miss!" when the player is actually immune also sucks ass, and I don't think it's better per se in the grand scheme of things, but she's not wrong in that a role designed to save someone during ITAs shouldn't just make them die to a lynch instead.

    ITAs being pro-town or pro-wolf is not a pointless question, but an impossible to answer one. I don't think many large games have been run without ITAs for points of comparison. Also seems incredibly dependent on the rand. ITAs are definitely not pro-town with a donkey town, and they're not pro-wolf if the mafia are a bunch of low posting pushovers that can't change shots lists, or get out of the POE. If you're trying to talk about if it's pro-town or pro-wolf with an average town rand against an average mafia rand, it's rare that happens, and there are a million other variables like who gets night killed, or outed, and which shots happen to hit. ITAs seem almost insignificant when compared to all the other factors that affect one faction's probability to win.

    I strongly disagree that ITAs are truly higher variance than the same amount of KP in roles. My guess there would be Mafia win % would go up, and game length would have a wider delta of variance e.g. 5-8 days becomes 3-10 days or something. Game length being is an enormous factor in trying to design, and making it less predictable makes any attempts at balancing much harder. High variance is just something that goes along with large games and a $#@! ton of KP per cycle.

  26. ISO #26
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by [NSM] Mikey (#24)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#20)
    Quote Originally Posted by [NSM] Mikey (#19)
    I'm not sure itas are pro town even, since I see wolves win mashes way more often
    itas used well and not taken over by wolves or just let run wild are pro town
    So itas are not pro town
    i'd say that like... itas, like vigs, have a fairly high floor if they're being both mostly town controlled and being used in a let's call it reasonable manner

    they get less protown if wolves are just running $#@! entirely in which case they shouldn't be protown, or if they're being handled badly
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  27. ISO #27
    Definitely SmartBomb Charmander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#23)
    immunity works like the second option you're suggesting for dodge right now as far as i know. you can set it to percents between 0 and 100 it's not a on/off toggle

    a thing i'd really really like to see is modbot support for miss on ita shields, like. a toggle like for immunity. i'd think it should be fairly simple to implement?

    additive and multiplicative as options for both dodge/vuln is a pretty cool idea
    I completely forgot partial immunity was a thing you could set. The name immunity to me implies 100%, and I was having a hard time writing that first sentence without using "partial immunity".

  28. ISO #28
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    it is a question that's more complicated than a polar answer

    but i think at a baseline so to speak they are provillage
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  29. ISO #29
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charmander (#27)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#23)
    immunity works like the second option you're suggesting for dodge right now as far as i know. you can set it to percents between 0 and 100 it's not a on/off toggle

    a thing i'd really really like to see is modbot support for miss on ita shields, like. a toggle like for immunity. i'd think it should be fairly simple to implement?

    additive and multiplicative as options for both dodge/vuln is a pretty cool idea
    I completely forgot partial immunity was a thing you could set. The name immunity to me implies 100%, and I was having a hard time writing that first sentence without using "partial immunity".
    i think most people forget

    we had a role that used that option in anni but it never got to fire, but it's a thing that deserves to see more use imo

    but i agree the way vuln works sucks and people don't use it because it's extremely silly
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  30. ISO #30
    Definitely SmartBomb Charmander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#29)
    Quote Originally Posted by Charmander (#27)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#23)
    immunity works like the second option you're suggesting for dodge right now as far as i know. you can set it to percents between 0 and 100 it's not a on/off toggle

    a thing i'd really really like to see is modbot support for miss on ita shields, like. a toggle like for immunity. i'd think it should be fairly simple to implement?

    additive and multiplicative as options for both dodge/vuln is a pretty cool idea
    I completely forgot partial immunity was a thing you could set. The name immunity to me implies 100%, and I was having a hard time writing that first sentence without using "partial immunity".
    i think most people forget

    we had a role that used that option in anni but it never got to fire, but it's a thing that deserves to see more use imo

    but i agree the way vuln works sucks and people don't use it because it's extremely silly
    I really want conditional modifiers more than anything else, but it's probably the hardest to implement UI wise.

  31. ISO #31
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charmander (#30)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#29)
    Quote Originally Posted by Charmander (#27)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#23)
    immunity works like the second option you're suggesting for dodge right now as far as i know. you can set it to percents between 0 and 100 it's not a on/off toggle

    a thing i'd really really like to see is modbot support for miss on ita shields, like. a toggle like for immunity. i'd think it should be fairly simple to implement?

    additive and multiplicative as options for both dodge/vuln is a pretty cool idea
    I completely forgot partial immunity was a thing you could set. The name immunity to me implies 100%, and I was having a hard time writing that first sentence without using "partial immunity".
    i think most people forget

    we had a role that used that option in anni but it never got to fire, but it's a thing that deserves to see more use imo

    but i agree the way vuln works sucks and people don't use it because it's extremely silly
    I really want conditional modifiers more than anything else, but it's probably the hardest to implement UI wise.
    I would absolutely love to see conditional modifiers but yeah
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  32. ISO #32
    i mean saying ITAs "aren't protown" is sort of like saying that the lynch isn't

    sure sometimes the wolves can take advantage of ITAs and the lynch to advance their own win condition. But they are still pro-village tools.

  33. ISO #33
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zapp Brannigan (#32)
    i mean saying ITAs "aren't protown" is sort of like saying that the lynch isn't

    sure sometimes the wolves can take advantage of ITAs and the lynch to advance their own win condition. But they are still pro-village tools.
    Ye this

    I was trying to find a way to articulate and just sort of gave up but yeah

    They are largely village controlled public village kp
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  34. ISO #34
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Anything pro town can hurt village if used badly enough and that’s how it should be

    Well not literally anything but yeah
    Quote Originally Posted by benneh (#28799)
    she's hard defended 90% of the dead wolves and the whole thread still wants to wish her happy birthday

  35. ISO #35
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    To clarify, my earlier point about ITAs favoring one faction or the other being an impossible question to answer should really be that it's impossible to quantity. Like is is it worth +0.5 KP per cycle, 2, 5, 10? If all Town shot Mafia and vice versa with a 3:1 ratio of town to mafia then the expectation is 3 town KP to 1 mafia KP per cycle from ITAs, but only mafia can shoot guarantee shoot town every time. So the ratio is likely less than 3:1, but who knows. Mafia typically have more KP per cycle in roles than town does so things probably are close enough to where it doesn't really matter that much.

  36. ISO #36
    A gunshot isn't really similar to a lynch at all from my perspective
    One of them kills me frequently
    ITAs have too much individual agency attached to them and they don't really give players a chance to defend themselves like a wagon does

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    Definitely SmartBomb Charmander's Avatar
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    I realize I'm making a very stupid argument with the whole pro-town versus pro-wolf thing.

    ITAs are a pro-town tool in that it's a mechanic that's much easier to make effective use of for Town, but not so much that it's an indictment of the mechanic in its current state, and doesn't inherently town-side mashes, or really require any kind of substantial consideration in the game's design in terms of each faction's power relative to each other.

  38. ISO #38
    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#16)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#2)
    I don't like ITAs because they frequently are 100% in mashes and those folks take hero shots that have a hit rate no better than rand (kills town 3/4 of the time).

    Even when they're just 15%, they have a chance to kill a player, which ends that player's participation. Death should be by lynch. I don't know when it got popular to make games as short as possible. What is wrong with one lynch and one factional kill per night? So what if the game is big and takes 3 weeks to complete? Very few people are going to be still playing that third week. The queue has a 2-week gap between large games, so it's not like there is competition in a major way. I'm not saying there shouldn't be more than 2 deaths per cycle, I'm just saying ITAs are like candy--a brief sugar high then what, they can't post any more.

    I tried as an experiment making it so you had to be hit 3 times by ITA to die (closed cemetery, resurrected after the first two hits) while increasing the to-hit percentage. I'll be honest, the experiment was meh. Just letting you know.

    One feature I think would be fun to add to modbot to facilitate a different version of ITAs is for the ability of a player to send a PM to modbot instead of posting in red bold in the game thread, such that when the PM is received, modbot posts "A shot rings out!" with either a "no one died" or a "Player X is dead" automatic post.

    In combination with or separate from that feature, there should be a way to do Poison ITAs, so that when you hit a player, they are simply poisoned and die either at that EOD or the following EOD depending on what the host sets in modbot. This is moving in a direction of trying to make mashes as modbot-friendly as possible so that you don't have to go the manual route necessarily.

    I prefer giving players roles like poisoner which facilitates the death but stretches out the targeted player's participation as long as possible--best of both worlds. Instead of ITAs, you can make them poisoner, suicide bomber, double voter, arsonist--lots of ways to kill that are creative, unique within that particular setup, and don't just blammo before the target gets a chance to participate that day. Yeah thats another thing, ITAs are bad for that reason as well...I'm all for death, don't get me wrong, but it should be at EOD or SOD (or as close as possible to those times) so everyone's schedules are respected for the duration of the game day.

    /rant
    i mean i think you're saying here that you just fundamentally... dislike the sort of thing a lot of people seek out when they decide to play a mash / the things that make people who like itas like itas

    which is 100% fine but it's not a "problem" with mashes per se in the sense of... normal mashes should be made different, because i'd say most people or at least a large portion seek them out for at least some of exactly the things you're listing off that you dislike.

    as long as people know what they're getting into there's nothing wrong with trying different mechs, though, but i do think your target audience for games that fundamentally diverge from a typical mash is going to be a bit different than that of a mash
    I see your point.

    OK then, I think standard ITA to-hit should be 18%.

  39. ISO #39
    Definitely SmartBomb Charmander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [NSM] Mikey (#36)
    A gunshot isn't really similar to a lynch at all from my perspective
    One of them kills me frequently
    ITAs have too much individual agency attached to them and they don't really give players a chance to defend themselves like a wagon does
    Individual player agency is one of the good things about ITAs to me. When you're 1 asshole out of 100 your voice and vote don't mean anything. It's frustrating if you don't like where the lynches are going, you're typically going to have next to no influence in making it go another way. ITA shots give everyone a bit of say about the way the game is going to go, or importantly, it gives them a perception of greater agency. You might not be able to get say Lissa lynched after she's defended 90% of the wolves in the thread, but you can shoot her and try to get others to shoot her for a bit of catharsis even if they all miss, and 15% of the time your shot is gonna hit, and you've made a difference.

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    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [NSM] Mikey (#19)
    I'm not sure itas are pro town even, since I see wolves win mashes way more often
    agreed

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    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#20)
    Quote Originally Posted by [NSM] Mikey (#19)
    I'm not sure itas are pro town even, since I see wolves win mashes way more often
    itas used well and not taken over by wolves or just let run wild are pro town
    Yes, but how often has that been happening the last couple years? A minority of the games, you'd agree, right?

  42. ISO #42
    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#23)
    immunity works like the second option you're suggesting for dodge right now as far as i know. you can set it to percents between 0 and 100 it's not a on/off toggle

    a thing i'd really really like to see is modbot support for miss on ita shields, like. a toggle like for immunity. i'd think it should be fairly simple to implement?

    additive and multiplicative as options for both dodge/vuln is a pretty cool idea
    also have it so modbot randomly opens and closes ITA sessions.

    like you pick a window and the range of sessions (1-3, for example) and the range of minutes for each session (15-45 minutes, for example)...would definitely add some excitement

  43. ISO #43
    I think another solution for my issues with itas would be pushing them back to day 3

  44. ISO #44
    GOAT Tier Jaleb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck (#1)
    In light of our recent Mob Psycho 100 Mishmash, I wanted to start a thread devoted specifically to the discussion of ITAs; how they work, how we want them to work, how they should work, as well as their place in large-games, balancing around them, and the many, many roles that involve our favourite shoot-em-in-the-face mechanic.

    A few conversation starters I wanted to suggest, then I'll loop back around with my own opinions soon.

    • Base ITA Hit % - Is 15% reasonable?
    • Balancing a game around ITAs, how do you do it?
    • Are ITAs pro-wolf or pro-village? Why? How?
    • Variations on ITA sessions (PrivateTAs, Silent Shots, etc.)
    • ITA roles: multi-shots, ITA immunity, nerfing, increasing/decreasing another's ITA.
    • "Hit! No one died!" OR "Miss!" when a player is immune or protected. Which is better for the game and why?
    • Lengthening or shortening ITA sessions? Increasing or decreasing the number of sessions per day?
    • ITA Modifiers: Immunity, Vulnerability, Hit Chance, # of Shots, BPV, etc.
    • Modbot & ITAs - What works, what doesn't? Any QoL changes necessary?
    • Interesting statistics or experiences related to ITAs.

    These are all off the top of my head, and there's probably plenty more concepts or mechanics surrounding ITAs that I've forgotten so please feel free to start the conversation here. For a mechanic that is so critical to many large-games we host on MU I think it's important that we have a stronger dialogue about how they operate and what we expect from ITAs.
    • Idk if the number is right. Simply it's for a good 1/7 chance of eliminating people which probably calculates out correctly to end the game pretty quickly
    • Balancing probably has to go with the usual 3:1 power, but idk how to do it other than the fixed 15% and when giving town a role that boosts/boosted you gotta give mafia something to compensate.
    • ITAs are both ways. They're pro-village as it usually can give town more kills than the mafia can perform and tells a lot of information with flips. They're pro mafia cause it gives less night phases for town's prs to perform actions. If you have 5-10 investigative roles in a mash without ITAs you get into late game with a metric $#@! ton of confirms based on mod info.
    • Variations are weird. I've seen many varieties where none of the shots fire off until the session ends, players can die but don't flip til it ends, silent shots, etc. I have no preference except people can become very salty if they shoot a player that might have hit a mafia just before them.
    • ITA roles are a fun variation of vigilante. They're fine.
    • Miss! with immunity is toxic. Mafia having one of those abilities takes all value out of an ITA session when everyone shoots and no deaths. It's say too over powered for the sake of lost attempts of killing people and no information is achieved based on the players shooting cause mafia are shooting there too.
    • ITA sessions shouldn't take the whole day (unless you're doing Gabe's Fortnite) as it takes conversations away from the other parts. You also want the buildup which I feel like people will jump the gun (no pun intended) if they don't have a way to buffer it. It's pro town to stall the times as there's better conversation like a lynch would. But it is also pro-mafia cause town don't always have enough time to figure out where to go after if a surprise comes up.
    • Modifiers can go with roles. Immunity is still stupid though.
    • There's a few ideas I've wanted to try with a mash with players having stacked vests during ITA sessions and a few mechanics I want to go with it, but Makaze gave me a no to the edit I asked about.
    • I have no clue with stats/experience. But town need to learn how to get good after wrecking the outed mafia from the first session.


    Will talk about other stuff as it comes up in the thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empoof (#4961)
    it was jaleb

    @Jaleb is a god
    ⚡🍺Frog 🍺⚡Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    ok dudes
    you can discuss the event here if you want

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:05 AM
    Done, will take my prize now
    I do have a 1900 rating in solving tactics :smiley:

    AndrewGreve(night vig/39%ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    hey
    i dont know chess tactics
    should I try?

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    1. Bf6 2. Qh7 3. Rf7 4. Nh6 5. Re5 6. ... Qh3 7. Qd8 8. h7 9. ... Ne5+; fxe5 h5 10. ... Bg1; Kg3 Qf2; Kh3 Qh2 i you want the answer, not that it matters
    if*

    ⚡🍺Frog 🍺⚡Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    Jaleb, you're lowkey Magnus

  45. ISO #45
    GOAT Tier Jaleb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#3)
    I will do a paper this fall on how town KP is not all it's cracked up to be, and an important component of proving or disproving that theory is going to be my painful and painstaking analysis of night vigs, day vigs, and ITA shots (miss or not) by town and what percentage those were directed at town vis-a-vis the percentage of town players alive at the time of shot and whether the shots were better, worse, or at rand.
    Umm....

    Let X be the number of mafia, then a game of (3X+1) town and X mafia usually gives town 2X total lynches in a standard setup.

    Now let's assume town only get 1.5*X kills. That means they have to be 66% accurate in their means of killing to win. Very hard with mafia having a little more liberty to bus in it.

    Conversely say town get 3*X kills. Then they have to be right only 33% of the time. That means they learn more information and have more educated plays. Mafia are required to keep themselves together better to avoid targets in general.

    tl;dr. More kp = more room for error = easier for town to win.

    QED
    Quote Originally Posted by Empoof (#4961)
    it was jaleb

    @Jaleb is a god
    ⚡🍺Frog 🍺⚡Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    ok dudes
    you can discuss the event here if you want

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:05 AM
    Done, will take my prize now
    I do have a 1900 rating in solving tactics :smiley:

    AndrewGreve(night vig/39%ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    hey
    i dont know chess tactics
    should I try?

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    1. Bf6 2. Qh7 3. Rf7 4. Nh6 5. Re5 6. ... Qh3 7. Qd8 8. h7 9. ... Ne5+; fxe5 h5 10. ... Bg1; Kg3 Qf2; Kh3 Qh2 i you want the answer, not that it matters
    if*

    ⚡🍺Frog 🍺⚡Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    Jaleb, you're lowkey Magnus

  46. ISO #46
    GOAT Tier Jaleb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [NSM] Mikey (#15)
    Why aren't there ita immune villagers to begin with?

    Also I hate itas because people hero shoot me, I would rather just have access to multiple lynches in a day phase
    People probably poe shoot you

    Multiple mislynches a day is weird to do cause players can only vote on 1 person at a time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empoof (#4961)
    it was jaleb

    @Jaleb is a god
    ⚡🍺Frog 🍺⚡Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    ok dudes
    you can discuss the event here if you want

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:05 AM
    Done, will take my prize now
    I do have a 1900 rating in solving tactics :smiley:

    AndrewGreve(night vig/39%ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    hey
    i dont know chess tactics
    should I try?

    Jaleb (RB/1% ITA)Last Thursday at 8:10 AM
    1. Bf6 2. Qh7 3. Rf7 4. Nh6 5. Re5 6. ... Qh3 7. Qd8 8. h7 9. ... Ne5+; fxe5 h5 10. ... Bg1; Kg3 Qf2; Kh3 Qh2 i you want the answer, not that it matters
    if*

    ⚡🍺Frog 🍺⚡Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    Jaleb, you're lowkey Magnus

  47. ISO #47
    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaleb (#45)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#3)
    I will do a paper this fall on how town KP is not all it's cracked up to be, and an important component of proving or disproving that theory is going to be my painful and painstaking analysis of night vigs, day vigs, and ITA shots (miss or not) by town and what percentage those were directed at town vis-a-vis the percentage of town players alive at the time of shot and whether the shots were better, worse, or at rand.
    Umm....

    Let X be the number of mafia, then a game of (3X+1) town and X mafia usually gives town 2X total lynches in a standard setup.

    Now let's assume town only get 1.5*X kills. That means they have to be 66% accurate in their means of killing to win. Very hard with mafia having a little more liberty to bus in it.

    Conversely say town get 3*X kills. Then they have to be right only 33% of the time. That means they learn more information and have more educated plays. Mafia are required to keep themselves together better to avoid targets in general.

    tl;dr. More kp = more room for error = easier for town to win.

    QED
    I don't dispute your valid point about the more KP the town can throw against the wall to see what sticks, eventually because of the sheer numbers disparity between town and mafia from the get-go, it will tend towards a winning formula. I just think the shots are about rand, and ITAs as they are presently incorporated don't nearly go enough toward reaching that state toward which the numbers tend, if that makes any sense.

    It's not significant at the levels presently used in ITAs. So now my argument against them becomes more the town should do better than rand at killing wolves when the function includes the input of the plurality of the player base, which usually corresponds to a plurality of the town, especially in a large mash. Hero shots, or grudge shots, or policy shots, are probably not as good in terms of accuracy as lynches. That's another aspect of the paper I need to research about.

  48. ISO #48
    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaleb (#46)
    Quote Originally Posted by [NSM] Mikey (#15)
    Why aren't there ita immune villagers to begin with?

    Also I hate itas because people hero shoot me, I would rather just have access to multiple lynches in a day phase
    People probably poe shoot you

    Multiple mislynches a day is weird to do cause players can only vote on 1 person at a time.
    Elegant idea as an alternative to ITAs or to reduce their involvement/impact while retaining the community consensus aspect of a lynch:

    --Using the existing modbot feature of proxy voting, which consists of a drop-down menu, make that menu capable of two selections, then submit. You are then showing as having voted to lynch Player A and Player B. This would facilitate games where you would want two lynches per day in a way that more accurately captures the will of the plurality than simply stating the top two vote getters are lynched. I will bring it up to makaze later, to whom I still owe another test run of something else that's been added.
    Last edited by Zork; August 14th, 2019 at 01:39 AM.

  49. ISO #49
    Wants It More baudib1's Avatar
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    15% is definitely the correct base hit rate.

    I have come to believe that Lissa is correct and Hit, no one died, essentially negates the value of day angels. Perhaps making day angels 1x BPVs is preferable but wolves are gonna be wolves and there is essentially no way to prevent wolves from being mechanically outed at some point. Having the wolf vig die to a random hero shot is kinda lame so good planning by the wolf team should be rewarded.

    Zork of course is against all village KP roles and thinks games should be determined by lynch and peeks but of course that's lame and not what mashes are for. ITAs enter more information into the thread and are inherently pro-village. If you were, on D3-4, privately poll the players if they want ITAs to continue, the villagers would almost always say yes and the wolf team would always say no.

    Having too many static days with outed wolves that can only be killed by lynch is massively pro-wolf. What we really need is more village KP in the way of day vigs and event prizes. Having village day angels is pretty tricky but it rewards good play. It would help balance if once in a while the wolf team can't silently shoot the town leaders indiscriminately.

    A good example is the ITA Death Mash, which is the only mash of recent time to be won by the village, and it was basically village hero shots and wolves over-bussing that won it.

  50. ISO #50
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    ITAs are outrageously town-sided.

    But thats ok, because we give the wolves day vigilantes, night vigilantes, back-up vigilantes and JOATs with KP.

    ITAs are fun and worth balancing games around. Larger games favour scum so ITAs work to bring things back in line.


    Anyone arguing that ITAs are wolf sided may as well be arguing that No Lynch is the best vote every day.

    ITAs kill wolves. End of story.

    If you're hitting wolves at =rand on the first couple of sessions you are probably still winning imo. The more PoE players that die... the easier it should be to improve your shots/lynches.
    Last edited by Apoc; August 14th, 2019 at 06:35 AM.

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