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Thread: Season 6, Wildcard Game 2: MafiaCon on Celeste Mountain [The Mafia Championship]

  1. ISO #6601
    weh SmartBomb's Avatar Moderator
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    Play it! It's a great game and I can't really convey that it is a videogame at heart and not just a story-driven experience as I've detailed. I honestly think the themes of Celeste - anxiety, success, doubt, and the concept of individualism - are all exceptionally relevant to mafia players especially and I think it's easiest for people like you, me, and people reading this to actually connect with Celeste itself. I can outline this later if need be.

    I'm heartened so many people liked the flavour!

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    Slaughter the Useless yogsloth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#6575)

    this is one part of the picture yeah. i mean i personally think batm and distorted were both sortable as villagers, as i personally managed to sort them both correctly (batman confident villager from mid d1, didn't doubt myself, distorted confident villager from d2 onward, didn't ever doubt myself after making the read).
    So what you're saying is that you're an armchair quarterback who only brags about the picks he got right?

    Solid work, rabbit. Congratulations on your moral superiority.

  3. ISO #6603
    Slaughter the Useless yogsloth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmartBomb (#6577)

    Good words.

    As I was following the game some of the villagers who were the most accurate ended up being - Distorted, Mistreya, and Squigs off the top of my head, though I can and will plead inaccuracy in that regard. To call these people unable to townside makes me scratch my head when they were closer to catching wolves than the majority of villagers were. Obviously you can argue that they were scummy but there's certainly no absolute barometer of scumminess and their alignment is as flipped, so.
    What a load of bull.

    Sure, it's easy to get some wolf picks right when you wolf read every single player in the game.

    It's always easy to cherry-pick a thing or two post-game in a game where you didn't even play.

    The three top wolves won this game. They will all advance, and they deserve to.

    But trying to paint terrible, awful, horrible, utterly scummy Town as being mis-lynches that should have somehow been obvious is disingenuous.

  4. ISO #6604
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#6600)
    Quote Originally Posted by shawnad2006 (#6598)
    Thanks for the flavor, @SmartBomb.
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#6599)
    smartbomb GOAT
    so much of all of this

    the flavor for this game was AMAZING i wanna go play celeste now
    It's free atm on Epic Games.

    Not bad tbh even though I hate platformers. Still didn't work for me cuz there are, like, hundreds of branching paths and the completionist in me gets irked way too much not being able to collect everything, but also don't have the unlimited time to waste I used to have at high school so can't invest the time to grind it out

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    weh SmartBomb's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogsloth (#6603)
    Quote Originally Posted by SmartBomb (#6577)

    Good words.

    As I was following the game some of the villagers who were the most accurate ended up being - Distorted, Mistreya, and Squigs off the top of my head, though I can and will plead inaccuracy in that regard. To call these people unable to townside makes me scratch my head when they were closer to catching wolves than the majority of villagers were. Obviously you can argue that they were scummy but there's certainly no absolute barometer of scumminess and their alignment is as flipped, so.
    What a load of bull.

    Sure, it's easy to get some wolf picks right when you wolf read every single player in the game.

    It's always easy to cherry-pick a thing or two post-game in a game where you didn't even play.

    The three top wolves won this game. They will all advance, and they deserve to.

    But trying to paint terrible, awful, horrible, utterly scummy Town as being mis-lynches that should have somehow been obvious is disingenuous.
    Wolfreading the entire game is, yes, a dartboard approach, and I was never saying it was successful. But by definition that is better than not wolfreading the wolves on a strict anti-town to pro-town perspective.

    If you continue to blame villagers for being villagers while absolving yourself for lynching a villager, which is the alignment they randed and hence is something immutable that they are, as opposed to one's reads on what are scummy and townie, which are inherently flexible, then I don't think I have anything else to say.

    I refuse to be painted into this corner. Am I saying that you shouldn't have mislynched these people? No, because that's certainly some sort of backseating that I cannot do because I did not play this game or even spectate it with lack of information, and as you say, the wolves played well. But being fatalistic or somewhat comfortable about lynching villagers, as a villager, no matter what their behaviour, is a strange statement to make. I have nothing more to say in that regard.
    Last edited by SmartBomb; September 4th, 2019 at 11:44 PM.

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    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogsloth (#6603)
    But trying to paint terrible, awful, horrible, utterly scummy Town as being mis-lynches that should have somehow been obvious is disingenuous.
    They were doing their best, and this is rude / not good sportsmanship.

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    GOAT Tier BATMAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#6606)
    Quote Originally Posted by yogsloth (#6603)
    But trying to paint terrible, awful, horrible, utterly scummy Town as being mis-lynches that should have somehow been obvious is disingenuous.
    They were doing their best, and this is rude / not good sportsmanship.
    Other than silver and yog being tunnel crap players and yog specially being a $#@!ing hater all the time. I think town had a chance had they not play of course.
    Was I surprise to see silver not being a wolf? Yeah. He scum sided and helped myslinch more villager than all wolves combined.
    Was I shocked yog was a villager? Not really I said it in the game and I expected this type of play from him as villager only. He’s a scared weak ass wolf. He did clear himself as town which is very nice and I commend him for it. Maybe there’s something we could learn from his play after all. I mention this to be fair and to show him maybe he needs to look at the positive and negative. Give players a chance and be able to reasses.
    I tried super hard to talk sense to silver and yog and other villagers so many times and I tried everything.
    Even after silver did the voyeur and knights and I was able to clear them both and move on.
    They still went full blast when it was dumb for me to claim something that actually made him look good.
    But maybe they will learn something after this.
    @silver I mean. I think yog is a sad lost case but I’ll let him tell you if he will take anything from this.

    @Dels is ok. Is a free country where we live and people can say their opinions, people just need to understand others get mad and say things they shouldn’t. Not a big deal is just the internet.

  8. ISO #6608
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    So, who the hell is @Adrien?

    Real Questions

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    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#6572)
    idk this whole mindset of "lynch the most antitown (subjective) villagers and blame them if theyre not wolves" is just gross. hate it. you're capping your own skill ceiling with this attitude.
    This is the number one reason not to play this way and it's something i've taken from playing competitive counterstrike and applied to all kinds of other games/sports


    Assume it's always your fault. Never blame the game. Never blame server lag. Never blame the grass or the wind. Never blame your teammates. Never blame the rand. You could have played better, maybe good enough to win.

    Now, i'm totally aware of how futile this approach is sometimes...sometimes it really was impossible to win, sometimes it really was your bonehead teammates fault...but that's not the point.

    There's almost always something you could have done better.

    FTR i think both batman and distorted did enough to prove themselves townie, but that's just my opinion.

  10. ISO #6610
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    The #2 reason is obviously

    It's nice to be nice

  11. ISO #6611
    Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Mod Logic's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logic (#2885)
    Quote Originally Posted by theknightsofneeee (#2804)
    Quote Originally Posted by Keldeo (#2802)
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted (#2782)

    @Keldeo http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/forumd...Archived-S-FMs im in most of those games on the frist pagae so you can view town/scum/neutral games.

    town games im usually more laxed an trolly, since it also acts itself as a LHF play, but I like to use heavy pressure. I will scumread and push at people who dont vote much or cant back anyhting up.

    My scum game is more logical. I am a big presence in the thread, but I come off as more collected and organized. I like to be motivational, give a few confident townreads (a way to buddy), and "guide" the game. Even when mislynches happen, "its okay because we needed them gone for PoE" kinda stuff (ofc not worded like that). but im always trying to project a presence of "the town has this" regardless of how the game is going.
    Hm, okay, thank you.

    What I was looking for in particular is if you as scum fake the type of like, offbeat paranoid reads, I'm not really sure what to call them - like "Adrien is Beck's Discord name and RE tagged Adrien because she was used to tagging Beck as that on Discord"

    For that read in particular, it occurred to me as a passing thought, but I checked the MU Discord and there's no one called Adrien - so I believe RE when she said she just messed it up, and then I circle around to "is this something faked, is it too offbeat to be town?"

    The closest thing I found in the games you linked is when someone said they were going to do something after a game of Heroes of the Storm and you asked how long a game of HotS is, which isn't really the same thing... but that doesn't mean that you're incapable of faking that type of read as mafia because these are pretty old games

    bleh this wasn't really productive and it's midnight
    this is never a wolf

    ever

    i'll literally jump out of an airplane if this is a wolf
    I work in the aviation industry and can provide one for you.

    Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to take off, so, it'll be on the deck.

    All that said, I agree, and I will film myself jumping out of an airplane if Keldeo is a wolf.
    So, uh, @theknightsofneeee, how do you wanna do this?

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    Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Mod Logic's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Because I don't think I said this already:
    Good game, and well played, scumteam.
    @Beck
    @Carson Garden
    @Keldeo
    @Spiny Creature

    I hope to play with you all again.

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    Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Mod Logic's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logic (#6612)
    Because I don't think I said this already:
    Good game, and well played, scumteam.
    @Beck
    @Carson Garden
    @Keldeo
    @Spiny Creature

    I hope to play with you all again.
    @CarsonGarden

  14. ISO #6614
    Season 69 Champion Beck's Avatar
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    Thank you @SmartBomb for hosting and for the phenomenal flavour.

    Thank you to @Spiny Creature and @Keldeo for welcoming me into the wolf pack and playing together as a team.

    And well played by the village across the board - you made this difficult and stressful and challenging and fun. All ways that I most enjoy playing werewolf. I’m so impressed by, and so happy to have been a part of, a group of players that were all in all kind and well-intentioned. We were able to debate and disagree but it never turned into name-calling or screaming matches.

    After giving it some time to let it sink in, this has been one of my most, if not the most, rewarding games I’ve ever played. A lot of players dislike playing as a wolf, but I find so much joy in playing the “bad guy,” creating an increasingly difficult puzzle for so many talented players to attempt to solve. Being able to trick friends along the way, and the fact that I fooled many more in Spec Chat was a total bonus. Games of this quality and competition come around only every so often, so I will cherish this experience.

    Regardless of who advances this game in particular means a lot and I am grateful I was able to share it with many old friends and several new ones. Hopefully we can all play together again soon. Thank you!

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    Award Reader Distorted's Avatar
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    @Keldeo you had me. just hands down lol well played.

    @Beck - I think the only reason I felt so strong about you is because, as I kept saying, you literally mimicked my scum game to a T. Then you even started telling the town "its okay, we got this" ect ect lol if only I was more organized this game =( I had so much going on IRL and then missing D1, I just never got my footing to get the thread-cred to push anything.




    Quote Originally Posted by yogsloth (#6603)
    Quote Originally Posted by SmartBomb (#6577)

    Good words.

    As I was following the game some of the villagers who were the most accurate ended up being - Distorted, Mistreya, and Squigs off the top of my head, though I can and will plead inaccuracy in that regard. To call these people unable to townside makes me scratch my head when they were closer to catching wolves than the majority of villagers were. Obviously you can argue that they were scummy but there's certainly no absolute barometer of scumminess and their alignment is as flipped, so.
    What a load of bull.

    Sure, it's easy to get some wolf picks right when you wolf read every single player in the game.

    It's always easy to cherry-pick a thing or two post-game in a game where you didn't even play.

    The three top wolves won this game. They will all advance, and they deserve to.

    But trying to paint terrible, awful, horrible, utterly scummy Town as being mis-lynches that should have somehow been obvious is disingenuous.
    @yogsloth hopefully you're not refering to me. I didn't wolfread many people this game. Putting pressure on a slot with a vote =/= wolfreading. I push for reactions. If someoen is a hard town read, I will push them just to see if I can get people to follow, and for what reasons. thats the point of this game lol.

    You on the other hand got solid townread by the whole thread D1 and just sat in the background the rest of the game. I didn't see you using that town-cred you gained to actually pressure anyone. Hell, you even let me believe apoc was the only reason Carson was lynched all game - I was later corrected by the other people in the thread lol. So if you want to talk about anti-town behavior, how about not helping keep information straight? how about not using the power you gained from D1 to force info out of people? No villager lynch is EVER necessary. Those justifications are for people who cant accept they were wrong about the game. You were wrong. You did not wolfread the correct people, and you lynched town. That's on YOU. The one scum lynch you apparently started? i guess? lol you didn't put to use, or even be a driving force to finish - apoc did that.

    gg, and wp everyone! once again @Logic I ended up getting confused about your slot lol. thats why i checked you N1, both games I played with you I always scumread you and you turn out to be town. Your playstyle as town just pings something in what I look for in scum, havnt figured it out yet xD but im working on that.

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    Award Reader Distorted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted (#4479)
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted (#4477)
    Quote Originally Posted by Beck (#3983)
    weve got this, it sucks rn but weve got this

    weve just got to keep the WIM up here, no more lazy wagon sitters
    THIS IS SCUM







    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted (#2782)
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted (#2776)
    @Keldeo http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/forumd...Archived-S-FMs im in most of those games on the frist pagae so you can view town/scum/neutral games.

    town games im usually more laxed an trolly, since it also acts itself as a LHF play, but I like to use heavy pressure. I will scumread and push at people who dont vote much or cant back anyhting up.

    My scum game is more logical. I am a big presence in the thread, but I come off as more collected and organized. I like to be motivational, give a few confident townreads (a way to buddy), and "guide" the game. Even when mislynches happen, "its okay because we needed them gone for PoE" kinda stuff (ofc not worded like that). but im always trying to project a presence of "the town has this" regardless of how the game is going.
    @Apoc @roro_b @Keldeo @Mistreya @shawnad2006 @RE1031 @silver @Spiny Creature @yogsloth @Beck
    lol

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    Slaughter the Useless yogsloth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted (#5240)
    Lynch misty. honestly, shoot apoc. he spent all this time on the silver scum and throwing doubt on me most of the game then he doesnt follow through EoD. he chagnes to clear his name from it.

    im guessing EoD1 was probably w/w at this point. misty was the important scum with strongman that Carson would not self pres to save herself.

    Beck, instant OMGUS me and came into the thread with strong townreads from nowhere that he never backed up. said he "will ignore me now" after I asked him about those townreads. that is the result of the discredit apoc was putting on me since D1. he is not working with people, he is not pro-town.


    Logic is far, far outside his town meta. so keep that in mind.

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    Award Reader Distorted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogsloth (#6617)
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted (#5240)
    Lynch misty. honestly, shoot apoc. he spent all this time on the silver scum and throwing doubt on me most of the game then he doesnt follow through EoD. he chagnes to clear his name from it.

    im guessing EoD1 was probably w/w at this point. misty was the important scum with strongman that Carson would not self pres to save herself.

    Beck, instant OMGUS me and came into the thread with strong townreads from nowhere that he never backed up. said he "will ignore me now" after I asked him about those townreads. that is the result of the discredit apoc was putting on me since D1. he is not working with people, he is not pro-town.


    Logic is far, far outside his town meta. so keep that in mind.
    yup. When I was told EoD that Apoc "wasnt the reason Carson was lynched, it was yog" that threw my entire perspective off. First, I wondered why the hell you let him take credit for it the entire time the way the thread gave it to him. literally he became the entire thread leader over it, and i was 100% townlocking him. Communicate lol I stated so many times in there that Apoc was the reason Carson got lynched, pushed, ect all of it and you never stepped in to correct it. Only at EoD did people start mentioning it. threw me into complete tinfoil.

    Working with the town goes a long way bruh

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    Award Reader Distorted's Avatar
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    it brought my scumteam from

    Carson, Beck, Spiny, Silver/misty
    to
    Carson, Beck, Apoc, Misty/logic.

    I found out about the Carson lynch reasonings too close to EoD to process it all. was unfortunate, but in the end my fault for not reading D1. It was just such a big piece of info that was revealed to me EoD lol it was a shock; especially since the slot that was the lock-town spot was just, not posting much content. It makes sense now why apoc wasnt owning the cred and running the town with full confidence after that though. That should have been you

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    Award Reader Distorted's Avatar
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    @Apoc I think your most powerful tool in Mafia (as town) though is your ability to generate thread presence. You are able to gain a following, regardless of if you have the town cred or not and get people to follow where you are going. You were able to do this EoD1 in G4, and seemed to generate it consistently over this game. I think if you realize when you're at that point you can organize the thread/town and use that to put some serious pressure on people to strangle a massive amount of info out of each day. You're ISOs ect are good and helpful, but the thread presence you are able to command I think is your biggest asset.

  21. ISO #6621
    so

    I know this is bit late but, here's my general thoughts on the game

    lets start off with a good, hearty lolwillage for getting swept after lynching a wolf day 1

    yikes



    now that that is out of the way, kudos to the wolves (especially keldeo) for playing a fantastic game.

    I was hard village reading 2 of the 3, and was just starting to doubt my spiny read before i got shot (so i know the shot on me wasn't a fear shot LOL)

    I would probably have not lynched keldeo until f3 at the latest, even if he had done his 'shoot inside where the cop is peeking' thing on someone other than me and i was alive to play.

    so seriously, incredible job wolves.



    wrt the village imploding

    it was pretty unfortunate that so many villager defended carson pretty strongly, specially when 1 wolf bussed and 1 was 0 posting. makes it so that we're looking for the 1 wolf in a sea of wolfy villagers which always was going to turn out badly for us.

    wolves being able to get away with the vig shooting inside of the cop's POE was huge this game

    if keldeo gets policied for that, game gets blown wide open; but its incredibly hard to make that call there, people do suboptimal $#@! all the time, and the only real thing i could point to as being kinda questionable wrt his shot on me was him saying he shot me because he didn't trust my cop stuff, when I let apoc (who was village read by the entire thread) pick the peeks. But thats a pretty hard read to pull the trigger on, and especially on a carson voter, so I don't really blame the village for that either.

    I think more than anything else, i made a pretty severe mistake this game in not sheeping apoc's read on carson earlier EOD1 (even 10 min before EoD would have sufficed).

    it made it so i recieved literally 0 clearance for my vote on carson, when i otherwise might have been able to get some, and that might have let people come to the position that wagons on day1 were w/v/v easier, and help solve the game for the village.

    I also (personally) could have done more to flesh out my read on beck, seeing as I know he's a great wolf. It maybe would have helped, perhaps not.

    but

    well played to everyone!

    I had a blast, was a pleasure playing with you all, and best of luck to whoever advances (sincerely doubt it will be me lol)

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    Soul Reader shawnad2006's Avatar
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    I disagree that so many villagers defending Carson made this game hard. From my POV, Carson was exactly the sort of scum that other scum would not have stuck their necks out to save. Especially on D1 in a Champs game.

    I guess people are going to have entirely different perspectives here. But this has been on my mind since we're discussing the ups and downs of the game....

    I thought one of, if not the biggest mistake town made was freezing people out- people that turned out to be other town. It was more than just tunneling on a suspect. Everyone does that. The wolves did a good job getting into the town core, and I felt some town members in that core froze others out of participating/being taking seriously.

    An example of this that personally grated me was at EOD3 when Distorted was facing lynch, and I didn't really want to vote anyone. Apoc said multiple wolves were in antispew, stop engaging them, make decisions with the town core only. No wolves were anti-spewing. And wolves were in the town core instead. This is just one specific example, but there were other instances of this sort of thing happening to where it felt the overwhelming thread opinion, not just Apoc's at that particular moment. I felt my credibility was just being aggressively raked over the coals, and I really struggled to operate in that position. Now, I'm not saying that bit isn't at all on me. Reflecting on how to not get rattled and stay focused when I'm in that spot has been on my mind as well. I know I could have done better. And I don't mean to imply here "I would have solved everything if you all didn't shut me out!" I'm not even speaking just for me. I feel people in the POE got frozen out, and people in the town core were given too much credit to where they could influence the thread. And I didn't actually see good reasons for why people were in those buckets.

    But anyway- I took a ton of heat just for questioning that town core, and that created a divide that I think would have been extremely difficult to recover from for Town.

    The wolves did not even have to push along the POE narrative that much when other Town were pushing it and saying everyone in it had to die first before questioning others would be truly considered.

    I also think that's what lead to the insurmountable rift in the town at the end that allowed Spiny's excellent fake claim to lead us to the final mislynch.

  23. ISO #6623
    Award Reader Distorted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnad2006 (#6622)
    I disagree that so many villagers defending Carson made this game hard. From my POV, Carson was exactly the sort of scum that other scum would not have stuck their necks out to save. Especially on D1 in a Champs game.

    I guess people are going to have entirely different perspectives here. But this has been on my mind since we're discussing the ups and downs of the game....

    I thought one of, if not the biggest mistake town made was freezing people out- people that turned out to be other town. It was more than just tunneling on a suspect. Everyone does that. The wolves did a good job getting into the town core, and I felt some town members in that core froze others out of participating/being taking seriously.

    An example of this that personally grated me was at EOD3 when Distorted was facing lynch, and I didn't really want to vote anyone. Apoc said multiple wolves were in antispew, stop engaging them, make decisions with the town core only. No wolves were anti-spewing. And wolves were in the town core instead. This is just one specific example, but there were other instances of this sort of thing happening to where it felt the overwhelming thread opinion, not just Apoc's at that particular moment. I felt my credibility was just being aggressively raked over the coals, and I really struggled to operate in that position. Now, I'm not saying that bit isn't at all on me. Reflecting on how to not get rattled and stay focused when I'm in that spot has been on my mind as well. I know I could have done better. And I don't mean to imply here "I would have solved everything if you all didn't shut me out!" I'm not even speaking just for me. I feel people in the POE got frozen out, and people in the town core were given too much credit to where they could influence the thread. And I didn't actually see good reasons for why people were in those buckets.

    But anyway- I took a ton of heat just for questioning that town core, and that created a divide that I think would have been extremely difficult to recover from for Town.

    The wolves did not even have to push along the POE narrative that much when other Town were pushing it and saying everyone in it had to die first before questioning others would be truly considered.

    I also think that's what lead to the insurmountable rift in the town at the end that allowed Spiny's excellent fake claim to lead us to the final mislynch.
    This 100%. that is what I was going off on day 2. I had 0 power in anything. The second a town was not "towncored" no1 listesned or even worked with them. all my questions were ignored and the town just let it happen, to me thats like wtf kinda play. When I answered a string of becks questions, and his response to me then asking questions was "ok im going to ignore this slot now" - that would NEVER fly on my site lol or any other MU game ive played. To top it off, just as Shawna said, any time I stepped to question ANYONE that wasnt the "general concensus" I got instant OMGUS voted/scumread back. I got into 3-4 TvT battles just because I voted at someone. Nothing else, i didnt scumread them, i just voted there and they instantly scumread me back. Town should have been all over this kind of $#@! and pushing back at those people for why ect and looking at the interactions between that. NOBODY would look at beck. nobody. He was lock-scum for me lol and after 20 damn hours of trying its just like... ok w/e not 1 person is listening to me here ill just post thoughts. hell, people started townreading anyone i would scumread; thats how bad it got. @Shawna2006 you got a place in my votes. Your play was solid and your analysis was so damn in-point. I still dont understand how everyone just overlooked it all.

  24. ISO #6624
    1610 roro__b's Avatar
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    I get where you're coming from and I had the same frustration (ie dobby doesnt get listened too so he can live lol) even though i was townread and towncore by pretty much everyone.

    Issue is we had too many that didnt want to work together. I felt the way shawna talked in silvers stead and defended him was similar to the way carson defended ink. Upon reread last day I was even more inclined to believe so.

    The omgus stuff was super frustrating and most of my discussions and irritation was because some were scumread for no reason at all. Scum played really well but we did not make this hard for them the way we had several people not playing the game.

    Again, the one who plays the best town game is not the one with the most accurate reads d1 (I mean, my d1 readslist was keldeo scum and accusing spiny of buddying me...) it's the one actually willing to work with the people in the thread, trying to be objective and seeing all different possible standpoints and sides of the game. Having accurate reads is part of it all though, and after a certain point the amount of wrong scum reads/flips lower the likelihood of being read as town. At least in my world. Too many town players not wanting to discuss just made it super easy for scum who were already very skilled to start with.

  25. ISO #6625
    Soul Reader Spiny Creature's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnad2006 (#6622)
    I disagree that so many villagers defending Carson made this game hard. From my POV, Carson was exactly the sort of scum that other scum would not have stuck their necks out to save. Especially on D1 in a Champs game.

    I guess people are going to have entirely different perspectives here. But this has been on my mind since we're discussing the ups and downs of the game....

    I thought one of, if not the biggest mistake town made was freezing people out- people that turned out to be other town. It was more than just tunneling on a suspect. Everyone does that. The wolves did a good job getting into the town core, and I felt some town members in that core froze others out of participating/being taking seriously.

    An example of this that personally grated me was at EOD3 when Distorted was facing lynch, and I didn't really want to vote anyone. Apoc said multiple wolves were in antispew, stop engaging them, make decisions with the town core only. No wolves were anti-spewing. And wolves were in the town core instead. This is just one specific example, but there were other instances of this sort of thing happening to where it felt the overwhelming thread opinion, not just Apoc's at that particular moment. I felt my credibility was just being aggressively raked over the coals, and I really struggled to operate in that position. Now, I'm not saying that bit isn't at all on me. Reflecting on how to not get rattled and stay focused when I'm in that spot has been on my mind as well. I know I could have done better. And I don't mean to imply here "I would have solved everything if you all didn't shut me out!" I'm not even speaking just for me. I feel people in the POE got frozen out, and people in the town core were given too much credit to where they could influence the thread. And I didn't actually see good reasons for why people were in those buckets.

    But anyway- I took a ton of heat just for questioning that town core, and that created a divide that I think would have been extremely difficult to recover from for Town.

    The wolves did not even have to push along the POE narrative that much when other Town were pushing it and saying everyone in it had to die first before questioning others would be truly considered.

    I also think that's what lead to the insurmountable rift in the town at the end that allowed Spiny's excellent fake claim to lead us to the final mislynch.
    This is all good observations.

    I also don’t know how often D1 wolf lynches happen on MU, but on my site they’re very rare and they almost always lead to wolf wins.

    I’ve thought before about why that is (that town getting a slam dunk on D1 seems to lead to losing way harder and more often than normal), and I really think it just throws town’s whole game off.

    A D1 wolf lynch should be avoidable 100% of the time, barring something 1610-ish. It almost always means wolves were unexpectedly absent, busy, and disorganized (as in this case).

    It also means there was no one strategy the team would’ve had and chosen on purpose (as in this game, where I thought we could force the lynch away because I assumed Jack would show up and Carson would start posting actively, and Keldeo had to make a last-minute busing call when that fell through. But we had no time to discuss these things.)

    But people go on analyzing the rest of the game the same as they would if the scum lynch happened on D3. Not the same thing at all. On D3 the team would be prepared, already have developed relationships with each other and with townies, and have a flow and some idea of how to respond to the heat.

    It’s easier to analyze the scum team assuming they were playing strategically and whatever you consider to be basic good play. But a D1 wolf lynch presumes the wolf team $#@!ed up, and it’s always much harder to predict what bad play and behavior with no thought process would look like.

    Tl;dr: town should’ve stopped basing their reads on who helped Carson or who bused Carson or who Carson seemed to be distancing from, and should’ve based their reads on the question “who wouldn’t have been able to save Carson with their posts and times they were in the thread?”

  26. ISO #6626
    Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Mod Logic's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiny Creature (#6625)
    Quote Originally Posted by shawnad2006 (#6622)
    I disagree that so many villagers defending Carson made this game hard. From my POV, Carson was exactly the sort of scum that other scum would not have stuck their necks out to save. Especially on D1 in a Champs game.

    I guess people are going to have entirely different perspectives here. But this has been on my mind since we're discussing the ups and downs of the game....

    I thought one of, if not the biggest mistake town made was freezing people out- people that turned out to be other town. It was more than just tunneling on a suspect. Everyone does that. The wolves did a good job getting into the town core, and I felt some town members in that core froze others out of participating/being taking seriously.

    An example of this that personally grated me was at EOD3 when Distorted was facing lynch, and I didn't really want to vote anyone. Apoc said multiple wolves were in antispew, stop engaging them, make decisions with the town core only. No wolves were anti-spewing. And wolves were in the town core instead. This is just one specific example, but there were other instances of this sort of thing happening to where it felt the overwhelming thread opinion, not just Apoc's at that particular moment. I felt my credibility was just being aggressively raked over the coals, and I really struggled to operate in that position. Now, I'm not saying that bit isn't at all on me. Reflecting on how to not get rattled and stay focused when I'm in that spot has been on my mind as well. I know I could have done better. And I don't mean to imply here "I would have solved everything if you all didn't shut me out!" I'm not even speaking just for me. I feel people in the POE got frozen out, and people in the town core were given too much credit to where they could influence the thread. And I didn't actually see good reasons for why people were in those buckets.

    But anyway- I took a ton of heat just for questioning that town core, and that created a divide that I think would have been extremely difficult to recover from for Town.

    The wolves did not even have to push along the POE narrative that much when other Town were pushing it and saying everyone in it had to die first before questioning others would be truly considered.

    I also think that's what lead to the insurmountable rift in the town at the end that allowed Spiny's excellent fake claim to lead us to the final mislynch.
    This is all good observations.

    I also don’t know how often D1 wolf lynches happen on MU, but on my site they’re very rare and they almost always lead to wolf wins.

    I’ve thought before about why that is (that town getting a slam dunk on D1 seems to lead to losing way harder and more often than normal), and I really think it just throws town’s whole game off.

    A D1 wolf lynch should be avoidable 100% of the time, barring something 1610-ish. It almost always means wolves were unexpectedly absent, busy, and disorganized (as in this case).

    It also means there was no one strategy the team would’ve had and chosen on purpose (as in this game, where I thought we could force the lynch away because I assumed Jack would show up and Carson would start posting actively, and Keldeo had to make a last-minute busing call when that fell through. But we had no time to discuss these things.)

    But people go on analyzing the rest of the game the same as they would if the scum lynch happened on D3. Not the same thing at all. On D3 the team would be prepared, already have developed relationships with each other and with townies, and have a flow and some idea of how to respond to the heat.

    It’s easier to analyze the scum team assuming they were playing strategically and whatever you consider to be basic good play. But a D1 wolf lynch presumes the wolf team $#@!ed up, and it’s always much harder to predict what bad play and behavior with no thought process would look like.

    Tl;dr: town should’ve stopped basing their reads on who helped Carson or who bused Carson or who Carson seemed to be distancing from, and should’ve based their reads on the question “who wouldn’t have been able to save Carson with their posts and times they were in the thread?”


    I hope this doesn't sound dismissive, but I rarely get a chance to use this meme, and it's one of my favorites.

    The short version is that wolves were more than a step ahead of village every day, even the day we lynched Carson.

    You played phenomenally, and don't let my snarky attempt at humor bring you down. The 4 of you won fair and square.

  27. ISO #6627
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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  28. ISO #6628
    Soul Reader Contrainer's Avatar
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  29. ISO #6629
    1610 roro__b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contrainer (#6628)
    Hype
    Indeed, wonder who could be our trio here lul

  30. ISO #6630
    Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Mod Logic's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#6629)
    Quote Originally Posted by Contrainer (#6628)
    Hype
    Indeed, wonder who could be our trio here lul
    Don't count the possible subs out of contention.

  31. ISO #6631
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Aight here we go

  32. ISO #6632
    1610 roro__b's Avatar
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    Tru tru glgl

  33. ISO #6633
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  34. ISO #6634
    four is more than three Keldeo's Avatar
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  35. ISO #6635
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbt (#6633)
    @Macdougall duty calls

  36. ISO #6636
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    REVEAL (PART ONE)

    13 different people received at least one vote.

    6 of them received at least one first place vote.

  37. ISO #6637
    bbt's minion tbh Boquise's Avatar
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    Hype!

  38. ISO #6638
    1610 roro__b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#6636)
    REVEAL (PART ONE)

    13 different people received at least one vote.

    6 of them received at least one first place vote.
    6? Woah cool

  39. ISO #6639
    1610 roro__b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#6637)
    Hype!
    Hi boq fren

  40. ISO #6640
    1610 roro__b's Avatar
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    Also I watched celeste speedruns and now I wanna play it and prolly will @SmartBomb

  41. ISO #6641
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    REVEAL (PART TWO)

    This is the vote distribution:

    58
    44
    29
    23
    20
    14
    8
    7
    6
    5
    4
    4
    2

  42. ISO #6642
    bbt's minion tbh Boquise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#6639)
    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#6637)
    Hype!
    Hi boq fren
    Hallå! Hope you get a sub spot tbh!

  43. ISO #6643
    1610 roro__b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#6642)
    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#6639)
    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#6637)
    Hype!
    Hi boq fren
    Hallå! Hope you get a sub spot tbh!
    Or I can bjuda dig på gt tbh and we spec together

  44. ISO #6644
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    REVEAL (PART THREE)

    In fifth place and becoming a sub for the Finale with 20 points is...



    @shawnad2006 (BoardGameGeek)!

  45. ISO #6645
    bbt's minion tbh Boquise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#6643)
    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#6642)
    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#6639)
    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#6637)
    Hype!
    Hi boq fren
    Hallå! Hope you get a sub spot tbh!
    Or I can bjuda dig på gt tbh and we spec together
    Sure tbh let's gå!

  46. ISO #6646
    1610 mendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#6927)
    REVEAL (PART ONE)

    10 different people received votes.

    6 of them received at least one first place vote.
    WC2
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#6636)
    REVEAL (PART ONE)

    13 different people received at least one vote.

    6 of them received at least one first place vote.
    I had a sense of deja vu, but not quite...

  47. ISO #6647
    four is more than three Keldeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#6644)
    REVEAL (PART THREE)

    In fifth place and becoming a sub for the Finale with 20 points is...



    @shawnad2006 (BoardGameGeek)!
    Yay shawna!!!

  48. ISO #6648
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    REVEAL (PART FOUR)

    In fourth place and becoming a sub for the Finale with 23 points is...


    @Apoc (Mafia Universe)!

  49. ISO #6649
    four is more than three Keldeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#6648)
    REVEAL (PART FOUR)

    In fourth place and becoming a sub for the Finale with 23 points is...


    @Apoc (Mafia Universe)!
    Congrats Apoc!!

  50. ISO #6650
    plinko boards and waterfalls vanity.'s Avatar Flake Moderator
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    congrats shawna and apoc! well deserved to be backups and hopefully you'll be able to play in the finale!

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