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Thread: Mountainhold Enchantress (10p)

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    Bandwagoner Lady Eventide's Avatar
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    Mountainhold Enchantress (10p)

    This is a setup intended to make playing with a cult actually fun.

    It does this primarily by using a variant Cult Leader. Here's a sample Role PM:

    You are the Enchantress. Each night, you must enchant another player, entwining their fate and heart with yours. (If you do not submit a target, it will be chosen randomly.)

    This has three effects:
    1: It replaces their wincondition with yours.
    2: It allows them to join a private chat with you and any others you have enchanted.
    3: It makes the pair of you Lovers - if one of you dies, both will. Bear in mind that this means if you or any of your servants are lynched, you instantly lose the game!

    You win the game when The Enchantress and her Servants equal or outnumber the Town.
    The setup is otherwise a simple mountainous 10er:

    Enchantress
    9x Vanilla Townie

    Back of the envelope calculations say the Enchantress wins 43% of games where town lynches randomly. In practice, the Cult probably has a higher winrate than that due to the social considerations; I'm just not sure how much higher. If it turns out to be cultsided in practice, it can go up to a 12er for +1 ML, or a Named Townie/Fruit Vendor can be added. If it's townsided we might have more issues, but I hope that's not the case.

    Some thoughts on why the Enchantress is a good thing for Cult's fun factor:

    1: It means that there's never a feeling of "might as well angle to get recruited now", since the Cult is always 1 lynch from losing, and in some ways becomes more fragile over time. The "Game's already lost" factor is much mitigated.

    2: The game is gauranteed to be short. If Town can't lynch a cultist on D3, it loses. If it lynches cult before that, it wins. Simple, easy to calculate, no risk of leftover cultist mopup making the game take until like Day 12.

    3: Recruiting people is now a long-term commitment! You can't spend cultists wastefully as the Cult Leader; you have to make sure they all live.

    The one thing it doesn't correct for is swing introduced by the Enchantress' personal skill, but given that they can recruit the best players in the game, I'm not too torn up about this.

    Anyone have any suggestions for how to make this better? Would you play it?
    Last edited by Lady Eventide; September 6th, 2019 at 05:56 PM.

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    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    Imagine it makes for a very interesting dynamic, can't bus, have to work together but if you get seen doing so can just all go downhill... But also never have to worry about post-flip associations. Can imagine some salt if it's perceived as if one teammate brought the entire thing down

    Definitely a game I'd try. Dunno about suggestions tho
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    Sounds fun; I'd play.

    Removing the compulsive need to convert every night - does that make it better or worse?

    Edit: It probably makes it more annoying for both town and scum. So nvm.
    Last edited by Chandra; September 6th, 2019 at 06:03 PM.

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    Bandwagoner Lady Eventide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chandra (#3)
    Sounds fun; I'd play.

    Removing the compulsive need to convert every night - does that make it better or worse?
    Probably worse, because it both makes the game length swingier and introduces the risk of the whole thing turning into a nightless SK hunt. Which is not a game I want to inflict on anyone involved.

    I have considered giving the Enchantress some form of limited kill capability they can use instead of recruiting, but Cultafias have always been ridiculously broken in the past, so I am definitely not running that in my first try at this setup. If the setup ends up being heavily townsided, maybe.

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    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    I could probably host this sort of thing if that's being looked for
    One idea comes to mind on flavor, maaaybe i'd figure out something better than that tho
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    Bandwagoner Lady Eventide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 (#6)
    I could probably host this sort of thing if that's being looked for
    One idea comes to mind on flavor, maaaybe i'd figure out something better than that tho
    I'd prefer to host this, frankly; I've got flavour in mind already~

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    Bandwagoner Lady Eventide's Avatar
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    Some ideas for iteration on the "setup is too townsided" side:

    X-Shot Heartbreak-Proof modifier. (The town must lynch additional cultists in order to win.)

    Starstruck Witch: A Lost Cultist, 1-way loverized to the Enchantress. (Dies if the Cult does, but Cult doea not die if she is lynched.) Knows who the Enchantress is, but the Enchantress does not know who she is. Best in a game which contains the Heartbreakproof modifier; in that case, should just flip as "cult".

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    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    It’s PROBABLY materially townsided in the main concept (random lynching should usually give town like 30-40% win odds for balance iirc) but you could probably get away with a something simple like “town must lynch two cultists or the cult leader to win” so there’s at least SOME room for bussing at the right time. Maybe add a townie or two if that makes it too wolfsided but I think that’s kind of the way you get there unless weirder specific roles is especially something you like in a game.
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    1610 mendel's Avatar
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    As town, I'd need to guess "who was recruited last night" and lynch that player. No-lynch on D1 might make sense?
    9:1 d1
    no lynch
    8:2 d2
    7:2 lynch
    6:3 d3
    5:3 lynch
    4:4 d4 cult win
    but

    if there is no lynch on d3, it ends on 5:4 d4 LYLO
    this affords only two lynches, 20% and 44% odds, .8*.56=.45 chance of cult win

    regular play is 10% 22% 37.5%, .9*.77*.625 = .44 chance of cult win

    question: how much harder is 3 cult in 8 after 3 days than 4 cult in 9 after 4 days?

    this might make a good turbo

    if recruiting is optional, the enchantress can opt for a "lost wolf" approach, F5 is MYLO, LYLO if lynches are mandatory in that case? 5 lynches = 50%, then 20%, makes 40% cult win chance, after 6 days

    if the enchantress starts recruiting d3, we get
    9:1 d1
    8:1 d2
    7:1 d3
    6:1 lynch
    5:2 d4
    4:2 lynch
    3:3 d5 cult wins

    30% chance after 3 lynches, 29% for d4 lynch, 7/10 * 5/7 = perfect 50% win chance, this game is balanced as is if the enchantress can opt to not recruit. There is lone wolf gameplay for 3 days, then a recruit that town has a single chance to find, which only allows same-day wagonomics for town.
    BUT the enchantress can go for the shorter game, in which case there is no D4, so town will be chasing a ghost coven for 2 days with the longer strategy.

    I dont think the startstruck witch makes the game more cult-sided?
    Last edited by mendel; September 7th, 2019 at 02:09 AM.
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  11. ISO #11
    This is a setup intended to make playing with a cult actually fun.


    think this is a pretty impossible process but gl to you for trying

    i think keeping it as a compulsive lover action is best and i think not having whatever lost wolf thing is best

    would also probably suggest banning no lynch

    run it as is, see how people like it and make changes after that i think

    think you are missing one reason why cult games are not fun, someone who is genuinely villagery who you have read correctly switching to a different team can be very difficult to spot as you essentially have to play a new game every day phase because of the recruit

    it is not particularly fun to lose because you made a correct read that got flipped when it could be very difficult to figure that out

    the lover aspect may go some way to mitigating this

    not every site or playerbase is receptive to cults (in simple games, anyway)

    just trial it and see how people feel

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    1610 mendel's Avatar
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    1-shot heartbreakproof with obligatory recruit & lynch

    D1 9:1 (10% town win)
    N1 8:1 (90%)
    D2 7:2 (11% town win)

    N2a 7:1 (11%, heart unproofed)
    D3a 6:2 (25% town win)
    N3a 5:2 (75%)
    D4a 4:3 LYLO 3/7 town win, .9*.11*.75*4/7 cult win 4.3%

    N2b 6:2 (77%)
    D3b 5:3 (12.5% town win)

    N3ba 5:2 (25%, heart unproofed)
    D4ba 4:3 LYLO .9*.77*.25*4/7 cult win 10%

    N3bb 4:3 (62.5%)
    D4bb 3:4 cult win .9*.77*.625 = 43.7%

    Total cult win chance 4.3%+10%+43.7%=58%, town win chance 42%
    makes it cultsided

    but the thing is that players are not equally likely to get lynched
    if the enchantress can select players who are less likely to be lynched (predicting town activity), she can improve her odds

    secret recruits
    mathematically, this game plays the same if you never notify the recruits
    it just denies town information, since the recruits can't betray the enchantress
    which allows her to recruit from a wider range of players

    with the original setup, the enchantress has to find players who a) won't betray her, b) won't get lynched, and condition a) helps town narrow the POE
    Condition b) comes down to a battle of wits

    I still say this has to be played fast, because town gets very little information D1 (single wolf hunting) and has little control.

    night start
    Maybe this setup is better with a night start, N0 is the recruit action, then D1 town has two cultists to hunt for. The drawback is that this works better with players who know each other, else the first recruit is a crapshoot (but every forum player has a history).

    The first lynch gave town 11% win chance in the original setup, with a 7:2 D1 we go to a 7/9*5/8 cult win, that's 48.6% and avoids lone scum hunting.

    9p setup, night start is best
    (or more players)
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    Bandwagoner Lady Eventide's Avatar
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    I like the night start and having a wolf pair to start with, but given that the N1 recruit is a crapshoot anyway, why not just rand it?

    So then:

    1x Enchantress
    1x Servant
    9x Vanilla Town

    D1 ML:

    1x Enchantress
    2x Servant
    7x Vanilla Town

    D2 ML

    1x Enchantress
    3x Servant
    5x Vanilla Town

    LYLO.

    On D1, 9/11 chance of random ML.
    On D2, 7/10 chance of random ML.
    On D3, 5/9 chance of random ML.

    9/11 * 7/10 * 5/9 = 0.31% chance of Enchantress win.

    Okay, so what if we give the cult a 1-shot heartbreakproof?

    Then... I'm going to need to draw a tree for this.

    ... 45% chance of Town win. Not terrible.
    Last edited by Lady Eventide; September 7th, 2019 at 07:00 PM.

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    1610 mendel's Avatar
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    You extend to 11 players because you want to run 3 days?

    Not randing the servant/first recruit gives the Enchantress more control, which is better, and psychologically changes D1 for town from "try to guess the rand" to "try to guess which is a plausible pairing", aka allowing arguments such as "A and B would never have picked each other". It elevates the amount of mindgaming going on.

    There could be a lynchless D1 where people talk about who would be a good player to pick, and require each player to submit a servant pick in ignorance of the rand (aka, "if you were randed, who woud you pick"), and then the Enchantress gets told and assigned her submitted pick. If most players know each other, this phase is not necessary.

    I've looked into delaying death or giving the Enchantress a "vengeful recruit", but the numbers didn't work out for me.
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    GOAT Tier Shad's Avatar
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    I really like the setup in the original post.

    Don't know if I'd have time to play, but I'd like to see it run.
    Last edited by Shad; September 8th, 2019 at 11:00 AM.
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    Bandwagoner Lady Eventide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#14)
    You extend to 11 players because you want to run 3 days?

    Not randing the servant/first recruit gives the Enchantress more control, which is better, and psychologically changes D1 for town from "try to guess the rand" to "try to guess which is a plausible pairing", aka allowing arguments such as "A and B would never have picked each other". It elevates the amount of mindgaming going on.

    There could be a lynchless D1 where people talk about who would be a good player to pick, and require each player to submit a servant pick in ignorance of the rand (aka, "if you were randed, who woud you pick"), and then the Enchantress gets told and assigned her submitted pick. If most players know each other, this phase is not necessary.

    I've looked into delaying death or giving the Enchantress a "vengeful recruit", but the numbers didn't work out for me.
    If one of enchantress' cultists dies in the heartbreak-proof setup, she doesn't recruit the following day, she kills. That works out the best re: the math.

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    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eventide (#1)
    This is a setup intended to make playing with a cult actually fun.

    It does this primarily by using a variant Cult Leader. Here's a sample Role PM:

    You are the Enchantress. Each night, you must enchant another player, entwining their fate and heart with yours. (If you do not submit a target, it will be chosen randomly.)

    This has three effects:
    1: It replaces their wincondition with yours.
    2: It allows them to join a private chat with you and any others you have enchanted.
    3: It makes the pair of you Lovers - if one of you dies, both will. Bear in mind that this means if you or any of your servants are lynched, you instantly lose the game!

    You win the game when The Enchantress and her Servants equal or outnumber the Town.
    The setup is otherwise a simple mountainous 10er:

    Enchantress
    9x Vanilla Townie

    Back of the envelope calculations say the Enchantress wins 43% of games where town lynches randomly. In practice, the Cult probably has a higher winrate than that due to the social considerations; I'm just not sure how much higher. If it turns out to be cultsided in practice, it can go up to a 12er for +1 ML, or a Named Townie/Fruit Vendor can be added. If it's townsided we might have more issues, but I hope that's not the case.

    Some thoughts on why the Enchantress is a good thing for Cult's fun factor:

    1: It means that there's never a feeling of "might as well angle to get recruited now", since the Cult is always 1 lynch from losing, and in some ways becomes more fragile over time. The "Game's already lost" factor is much mitigated.

    2: The game is gauranteed to be short. If Town can't lynch a cultist on D3, it loses. If it lynches cult before that, it wins. Simple, easy to calculate, no risk of leftover cultist mopup making the game take until like Day 12.

    3: Recruiting people is now a long-term commitment! You can't spend cultists wastefully as the Cult Leader; you have to make sure they all live.

    The one thing it doesn't correct for is swing introduced by the Enchantress' personal skill, but given that they can recruit the best players in the game, I'm not too torn up about this.

    Anyone have any suggestions for how to make this better? Would you play it?
    Without reading past post 1, how do we as town figure out who the Enchantress is? Her goal is not any different than every other player on day 1: lynch someone other than oneself. What differentiates the Enchantress on d1 from the other players to a degree it can be detected by good town play?

    There should be a town role that is immune to the Enchantress' charms. Maybe also a watcher.

    Also something needs to be done about the numbers so that Enchantress does not have a 43% chance to win if town lynches randomly. It would become essential to lynch randomly to secure the best chance of winning. Random chance lynch should result in a win rate for the Enchantress of >50%.

    I like how it forces a newly minted cultist to weasel their way out of the analysis the provided on previous days when they were town. A good challenge.

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    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eventide (#4)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chandra (#3)
    Sounds fun; I'd play.

    Removing the compulsive need to convert every night - does that make it better or worse?
    Probably worse, because it both makes the game length swingier and introduces the risk of the whole thing turning into a nightless SK hunt. Which is not a game I want to inflict on anyone involved.

    I have considered giving the Enchantress some form of limited kill capability they can use instead of recruiting, but Cultafias have always been ridiculously broken in the past, so I am definitely not running that in my first try at this setup. If the setup ends up being heavily townsided, maybe.
    Maybe let the Enchantress have a factional kill n1?

  19. ISO #19
    Wants It More Zork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eventide (#8)
    Some ideas for iteration on the "setup is too townsided" side:

    X-Shot Heartbreak-Proof modifier. (The town must lynch additional cultists in order to win.)

    Starstruck Witch: A Lost Cultist, 1-way loverized to the Enchantress. (Dies if the Cult does, but Cult doea not die if she is lynched.) Knows who the Enchantress is, but the Enchantress does not know who she is. Best in a game which contains the Heartbreakproof modifier; in that case, should just flip as "cult".
    I don't understand your last sentence. The heartbreak proof modifier seems horrible.

    I do like the Starstruck Witch though.

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    1610 mendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#17)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eventide (#1)
    This is a setup intended to make playing with a cult actually fun.

    It does this primarily by using a variant Cult Leader. Here's a sample Role PM:

    You are the Enchantress. Each night, you must enchant another player, entwining their fate and heart with yours. (If you do not submit a target, it will be chosen randomly.)

    This has three effects:
    1: It replaces their wincondition with yours.
    2: It allows them to join a private chat with you and any others you have enchanted.
    3: It makes the pair of you Lovers - if one of you dies, both will. Bear in mind that this means if you or any of your servants are lynched, you instantly lose the game!

    You win the game when The Enchantress and her Servants equal or outnumber the Town.
    The setup is otherwise a simple mountainous 10er:

    Enchantress
    9x Vanilla Townie

    Back of the envelope calculations say the Enchantress wins 43% of games where town lynches randomly. In practice, the Cult probably has a higher winrate than that due to the social considerations; I'm just not sure how much higher. If it turns out to be cultsided in practice, it can go up to a 12er for +1 ML, or a Named Townie/Fruit Vendor can be added. If it's townsided we might have more issues, but I hope that's not the case.

    Some thoughts on why the Enchantress is a good thing for Cult's fun factor:

    1: It means that there's never a feeling of "might as well angle to get recruited now", since the Cult is always 1 lynch from losing, and in some ways becomes more fragile over time. The "Game's already lost" factor is much mitigated.

    2: The game is gauranteed to be short. If Town can't lynch a cultist on D3, it loses. If it lynches cult before that, it wins. Simple, easy to calculate, no risk of leftover cultist mopup making the game take until like Day 12.

    3: Recruiting people is now a long-term commitment! You can't spend cultists wastefully as the Cult Leader; you have to make sure they all live.

    The one thing it doesn't correct for is swing introduced by the Enchantress' personal skill, but given that they can recruit the best players in the game, I'm not too torn up about this.

    Anyone have any suggestions for how to make this better? Would you play it?
    Without reading past post 1, how do we as town figure out who the Enchantress is? Her goal is not any different than every other player on day 1: lynch someone other than oneself. What differentiates the Enchantress on d1 from the other players to a degree it can be detected by good town play?

    There should be a town role that is immune to the Enchantress' charms. Maybe also a watcher.

    Also something needs to be done about the numbers so that Enchantress does not have a 43% chance to win if town lynches randomly. It would become essential to lynch randomly to secure the best chance of winning. Random chance lynch should result in a win rate for the Enchantress of >50%.

    I like how it forces a newly minted cultist to weasel their way out of the analysis the provided on previous days when they were town. A good challenge.
    If you introduce immunity, you have unkillable town who can claim. And cultists can't counterclaim because of the penalty to the whole cult. Watch that player slack off, as they can't be threatened.

    If the newly minted cultist needs to weasel out of their analysis, and fails, the Enchantress chose badly?

    Mind you, making the cult recruit random would present quite a different challenge. This could be a town role: one-shot recruit randomizer. Also role blockers, and an oracle who one-shot asks for the number of cultists alive? This all runs into the difficulty of cult having no killing power. Which it maybe can acquire once it surpasses a certain size, possibly in exchange for the recruit mechanic? All the trappings of cult play, just with Eventide's idea of the loverized cult. (Could also introduce the loverization -- which I think of as brittleness -- at the same size kill power is granted.)
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    GOAT Tier LordQuas's Avatar
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    original seems slightly townsided but I'd have to run the math
    :wiwe

  22. ISO #22
    Soul Reader Evenstar's Avatar
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    A version of this is now taking signups as "Her Name Is Thaumiel"!

    I took the 11er and biased it back towards the cult again by making the cult leader not allowed to be lynched

    it works out as pretty damn even scum/town according to theory

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