Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 51 to 100 of 108

Thread: Mafia Championship Season 6: Post-Season Feedback Thread

  1. ISO #51
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    12,330
    Timezone
    UTC-07:00
    Community
    PlayDiplomacy, MafiaScum
    Pronouns
    he/him/his/his/himself
    Gender
    for those who dislike mountainous b/c the best players die n1 always, you could always run something like doubleday, though I'm not sure that a game that runs EVEN SLOWER than normal would be fun for all

    Any thoughts on doing something a bit different like double lynch? Top 2 wagons get lynched every day, which adds substantially to town power, but a bad d1 can really destroy a town potentially. idk what #s balance something like that (maybe 11/4 if you like "top 15" as a concept?) but that's a notion.

    I suppose maybe there's some kind of setup that can be run as 16 players, and then semifinals are a set of four games of 16 each (64 total), though that may be a bit *TOO* inclusive for a reasonable round 2...
    Life is simply unfair... don't you think?
    http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=mhsmith0

    BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me

  2. ISO #52
    GOAT Tier bearsquared's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    15,524
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    MiniMafia
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 (#51)
    for those who dislike mountainous b/c the best players die n1 always, you could always run something like doubleday, though I'm not sure that a game that runs EVEN SLOWER than normal would be fun for all

    Any thoughts on doing something a bit different like double lynch? Top 2 wagons get lynched every day, which adds substantially to town power, but a bad d1 can really destroy a town potentially. idk what #s balance something like that (maybe 11/4 if you like "top 15" as a concept?) but that's a notion.

    I suppose maybe there's some kind of setup that can be run as 16 players, and then semifinals are a set of four games of 16 each (64 total), though that may be a bit *TOO* inclusive for a reasonable round 2...
    I think double lynches, or double days tries to solve the issue of the strongest players always dying n1 problem by making Mountainous, a setup that's likely going to be uncommon on most sites, even more exotic. Adding power roles is a solution to the same problem, and I would bet a considerable amount of money that Mafia games are played with some kind of power role over 99% of the time.
    Last edited by bearsquared; November 5th, 2019 at 08:25 PM.

  3. ISO #53
    Why stop at double days? Just go 12/3, double days and double nights: Two lynches and two nightkills every phase. It will be over in a blast!

  4. ISO #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#175)
    SETUP DETAILS FOR 2X5

    This is a semi-open grid setup meant for 17 players: 4 mafia versus 13 townies.

    Column 1 Column 2
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Goon
    Mafia Role Cop
    Row A Town Even Night Vigilante
    Town Roleblocker
    Town 1-shot Neapolitan
    Town Even Night Vigilante
    Town Roleblocker
    Town Tracker
    Row B Town Even Night Vigilante
    Town Jailkeeper
    Town Even Night Vigilante
    Town Jailkeeper
    Town Voyeur
    Row C Town Tracker
    Town Jailkeeper
    Town Tracker
    Town Jailkeeper
    Town Voyeur
    Row D Town Tracker
    Town Roleblocker
    Town Voyeur
    Town Jack of All Trades*
    Town Even Night Vigilante
    Town Motion Detector
    Row E Town Doctor
    Town Jack of All Trades*
    Town Doctor
    Town Roleblocker
    Town Motion Detector

    *Town Jack of All Trades: 1x Vigilante, 1x Roleblocker, 1x Tracker.

    Method for randing:
    First you randomly select a number to decide the mafia team's composition of Power Roles (1-2), then you randomly select a letter to decide the town's composition of Power Roles (A-E). Fill in the number of Vanilla Townies needed to make the town team have 13 members total, and you have your setup. I.e. if you randed 2 and B then you'd get the following setup:

    Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia Role Cop
    vs.
    Town Even Night Vigilante, Town Jailkeeper, Town Voyeur, 10 Vanilla Townies

    So the general idea is that as a townie, you know you're up against one of 2 possible mafia team compositions. And as a mafia you know you're up against one of 5 possible town team compositions. The more powerful the mafia team is, the more power is given to the town team, naturally.

    Important setup notes:
    • The mafia's factional kill must be assigned to a single member of their team each night. This means that the mafia's factional kill can, for example, be blocked by a Town Jailkeeper or tracked by a Town Tracker.
    • None of the included roles can self-target, including the protective roles.
    • Doctors, Jailkeepers, and Roleblockers are not allowed to target the same players on consecutive nights.
    • The Even Night Vigilante may only shoot on even nights (i.e. Night 2, Night 4, etc.).
    • The Voyeur's own action will not show up in their result.
    • There are no night 0 actions (aka pre-game actions).

    Role explanations:
    Please go to this page to read about the different roles if you're unfamiliar with them: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...oles-Modifiers

    • Majority will be in effect starting Day 2. Day 2 onward will end the instant a majority is reached.
    • Town wins when all threats to Town have been eliminated.
    • Mafia factions win when they achieve Parity and all other evil factions have been eliminated at any time.
    • Votes are not automatically locked at LYLO.
    • No Lynching is enabled. Vote for No Lynch to forgo a lynch that Day.
    • Mafia factional kills are mandatory. Mafia must submit a factional kill each night, or a player outside their faction will be chosen at random.
    • Mafia factional kills are assigned. They can be tracked, watched, or roleblocked.
    • Mafia may communicate at any time.
    • Tied votes will result in a player being lynched at random from among the tied players.


    Last year's 2x5 setup spoilered above.

    Option 1: Replace voyeurs and motion detectors with a 1-shot neapolitan or 1-shot role cop or something. Or just leave it the same. Maybe make some minor tweaks.

    Option 2: I kinda just threw this together.

    I sorted roles into different buckets:

    (1) Killing - Vigilante, JOAT (JOAT being in here is somewhat arbitrary)
    (2) Nightkill - Doctor, Jailkeeper, Roleblocker
    (3) Investigative - Neapolitan, Role Cop, Tracker

    Column 1 follows this pattern: Killing + Nightkill + limited Investigative, except for Row D (which replaces the limited investigative with a limited killing). 4 goons is kind of lame, and it's easier to design more interesting setups around a 3 goon + 1 roleblocker wolf team IMO.

    Column 2 follows this pattern: Nightkill + Investigative + limited Killing. I made the Mafia Rolecop a JOAT because I can, and added an odd night tracker which is weak but still of some use to compensate.

    I avoided combinations like Doctor + Roleblocker which can prolong the game and make everyone miserable. Every game has at least one town vig shot.

    Like I said, I threw this together fairly quickly, so feel free to rip it apart.

    Column 1 Column 2
    3x Goon
    1x Roleblocker
    2x Goon
    1x Odd Night Tracker
    1x JOAT (1x Role Cop, 1x Watcher, 1x Neapolitan)
    Row A Even Night Vigilante
    Doctor
    Odd Night Role Cop
    Jailkeeper
    Tracker
    Night 2 Vigilante
    Row B Even Night Vigilante
    Jailkeeper
    1-shot Neapolitan
    Jailkeeper
    Neapolitan
    Night 2 Vigilante
    Row C Even Night Vigilante
    Roleblocker
    Tracker
    Jailkeeper
    Role Cop
    2-shot Vigilante
    Row D JOAT (1x Vig, 1x Roleblock, 1x Track)
    Doctor
    Night 2 Vigilante
    Roleblocker
    Role Cop
    Even Night Vigilante
    Row E JOAT (1x Vig, 1x Roleblock, 1x Track)
    Jailkeeper
    1-shot Role Cop
    Roleblocker
    Neapolitan
    Even Night Vigilante
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris (#176)
    I threw this together fairly quickly, so feel free to rip it apart.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ISA/edit#gid=0

    Some similarities to Zack's. I wanted there to be a mafia power role on every team, so I did 3x goon and tracker, then 2x goon + jailkeeper. I did consider roleblocker instead, but I opted for JK to offset the vig shots (which could be + or - for either side). I pretty much stole my JOAT from last's year's setup and replaced the tracker with a rolecop due to swapping of the mafia PR. I'm not married to any of it

    One setup in each has no vig shot, but the rest mostly have 1+ kill, some sort of protection, and either an investigation or support role (or both). The colors were very quick, rough estimates of relative power within the group, intended to reflect that setup. For example, town's rolecop is less powerful in setup 2GC than 3GF, as both mafia roles are mirrored by town.

    Again, I basically rushed to get it done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris (#177)
    Also, I kind of ran out of creativity towards the end. I was thinking 2x4, or even 2x3, would be better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#178)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris (#177)
    Also, I kind of ran out of creativity towards the end. I was thinking 2x4, or even 2x3, would be better.
    I also had this thought

    Maybe even a 3x3 and switch up the wolf roles a bit more
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris (#179)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#178)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris (#177)
    Also, I kind of ran out of creativity towards the end. I was thinking 2x4, or even 2x3, would be better.
    I also had this thought

    Maybe even a 3x3 and switch up the wolf roles a bit more
    I'd be fine with one version of 3+1, and then two different 2+2's. Makes it a little harder for town to know exactly what setup they're in.

  5. ISO #55
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    4,125
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    Serenes Forest
    AKA
    Mak Daddy
    Pronouns
    they/them/their/theirs/themself
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#52)
    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 (#51)
    for those who dislike mountainous b/c the best players die n1 always, you could always run something like doubleday, though I'm not sure that a game that runs EVEN SLOWER than normal would be fun for all

    Any thoughts on doing something a bit different like double lynch? Top 2 wagons get lynched every day, which adds substantially to town power, but a bad d1 can really destroy a town potentially. idk what #s balance something like that (maybe 11/4 if you like "top 15" as a concept?) but that's a notion.

    I suppose maybe there's some kind of setup that can be run as 16 players, and then semifinals are a set of four games of 16 each (64 total), though that may be a bit *TOO* inclusive for a reasonable round 2...
    I think double lynches, or double days tries to solve the issue of the strongest players always dying n1 problem by making Mountainous, a setup that's likely going to be uncommon on most sites, even more exotic. Adding power roles is a solution to the same problem, and I would bet a considerable amount of money that Mafia games are played with some kind of power role over 99% of the time.
    While none of what you said is incorrect, it could be said another way. Mafia games are played with imbalanced setups that would uncercut the intent of a tournament 99% of the time.

    The best case I've heard for adding roles is that managing claims and counter claims is a skill we need to showcase to judge who is the best. Ignoring it is ignoring an important part of the game that we see every day.

    I don't think that argument actually works when only a handful of players get power roles and therefore only some get those chances to shine. It is easy for someone to do well for their alignment as an investigative role, and they may be the most valuable player of their team just for having it, but that doesn't actually set them apart for their skillset, since no one else got the chance to show what they could do with it. Judges have a burden to choose the person they think is the best player even without a role to help, so having a role can be a handicap when judges overvalue someones play because of the role they randed, or when they overcompensate and undervalue it because they are afraid of overvaluing.

    In Mountainous everyone has the same chance to shine. Whether you are better than your fellow players relative to your alignment has nothing to do with what you got handed and everything to do with how you play. The best players will naturally rise without any handicap or luck of the rand, making it a fair judgment and a playing field where no one gets shafted.

    Most importantly mountainous has been demonstrated as an effectively balanced tournament setup, and everyone liked it when it ran despite the same complaints being aired -- I don't think many people were unhappy with the mountainous format, even if some thought it would be more fun with roles in the game.

    Delaying the first night kill until Night 2 should happen regardless of all other changes to help with showcasing those talents and avoid shortchanging the best players before they get to try.
    Last edited by Makaze; November 6th, 2019 at 01:31 AM.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: remember that we are marking down all of your reads to hold for our personal amusement
    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of lol

  6. ISO #56
    people can circlejerk about mountainous all they want, but as far as I can tell, most people who play in champs don't like it and don't want the setup to be mountainous. Is this perception incorrect? Genuinely asking

  7. ISO #57
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    4,125
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    Serenes Forest
    AKA
    Mak Daddy
    Pronouns
    they/them/their/theirs/themself
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#56)
    people can circlejerk about mountainous all they want, but as far as I can tell, most people who play in champs don't like it and don't want the setup to be mountainous. Is this perception incorrect? Genuinely asking
    I don't know man I don't play

    The poll should go to the players.

    Balance is the biggest question, and regardless of the format, I seriously want to try a delayed NK to avoid punishing the best players.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: remember that we are marking down all of your reads to hold for our personal amusement
    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of lol

  8. ISO #58
    I personally don't remember any real problems with 2x5, and I played in that season. People seemed to like it, the games worked out fine, it created some fun moments for spec chat. Why not run that again (or some variant of it)?

  9. ISO #59
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    4,125
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    Serenes Forest
    AKA
    Mak Daddy
    Pronouns
    they/them/their/theirs/themself
    Gender
    I'm fine with any balanced setup and I love variable semi-opens. But working in that delayed NK is going to matter -- I think this is the biggest issue in the series (aside from imbalance).

    I'd suggest an actual poll (or a series of them if new ideas come up).
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: remember that we are marking down all of your reads to hold for our personal amusement
    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of lol

  10. ISO #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#57)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#56)
    people can circlejerk about mountainous all they want, but as far as I can tell, most people who play in champs don't like it and don't want the setup to be mountainous. Is this perception incorrect? Genuinely asking
    I don't know man I don't play

    The poll should go to the players.

    Balance is the biggest question, and regardless of the format, I seriously want to try a delayed NK to avoid punishing the best players.
    the delayed NK is a neat feature, I'll give you that

    on a sidenote, these types of threads are always going to have a selection bias. The vast majority of people who played / will play in champs will never post in it, and it will mostly be the people who are really involved in champs. Which is fine, but what the really involved people want is not necessarily what most players want.

  11. ISO #61
    GOAT Tier bearsquared's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    15,524
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    MiniMafia
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#55)
    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#52)
    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 (#51)
    for those who dislike mountainous b/c the best players die n1 always, you could always run something like doubleday, though I'm not sure that a game that runs EVEN SLOWER than normal would be fun for all

    Any thoughts on doing something a bit different like double lynch? Top 2 wagons get lynched every day, which adds substantially to town power, but a bad d1 can really destroy a town potentially. idk what #s balance something like that (maybe 11/4 if you like "top 15" as a concept?) but that's a notion.

    I suppose maybe there's some kind of setup that can be run as 16 players, and then semifinals are a set of four games of 16 each (64 total), though that may be a bit *TOO* inclusive for a reasonable round 2...
    I think double lynches, or double days tries to solve the issue of the strongest players always dying n1 problem by making Mountainous, a setup that's likely going to be uncommon on most sites, even more exotic. Adding power roles is a solution to the same problem, and I would bet a considerable amount of money that Mafia games are played with some kind of power role over 99% of the time.
    While none of what you said is incorrect, it could be said another way. Mafia games are played with imbalanced setups that would uncercut the intent of a tournament 99% of the time.

    The best case I've heard for adding roles is that managing claims and counter claims is a skill we need to showcase to judge who is the best. Ignoring it is ignoring an important part of the game that we see every day.

    I don't think that argument actually works when only a handful of players get power roles and therefore only some get those chances to shine. It is easy for someone to do well for their alignment as an investigative role, and they may be the most valuable player of their team just for having it, but that doesn't actually set them apart for their skillset, since no one else got the chance to show what they could do with it. Judges have a burden to choose the person they think is the best player even without a role to help, so having a role can be a handicap when judges overvalue someones play because of the role they randed, or when they overcompensate and undervalue it because they are afraid of overvaluing.

    In Mountainous everyone has the same chance to shine. Whether you are better than your fellow players relative to your alignment has nothing to do with what you got handed and everything to do with how you play. The best players will naturally rise without any handicap or luck of the rand, making it a fair judgment and a playing field where no one gets shafted.

    Most importantly mountainous has been demonstrated as an effectively balanced tournament setup, and everyone liked it when it ran despite the same complaints being aired -- I don't think many people were unhappy with the mountainous format, even if some thought it would be more fun with roles in the game.

    Delaying the first night kill until Night 2 should happen regardless of all other changes to help with showcasing those talents and avoid shortchanging the best players before they get to try.
    The bold is a narrow way to interpret the effects of adding PRs to a setup. The players who get randed PRs are given an opportunity to showcase a different set of skills, but, more importantly, so is everyone else. VTs, at worst, can showcase the same skills they could in Mountainous. At best, they can showcase those skills, and their skills playing around PRs. An extreme example of this would be Cop cover in a Cop 13er. It's important for VTs to maintain cover as to not out the Cop by process of elimination. Maintaining good Cop cover, and understanding when to break cover or call out someone else's bad cover, are all skills. They're all meaningful decisions added into the game because of the addition of a PR.
    I dislike Cop 13ers because how significantly that role warps the play around it, but it worked simply as an extreme example to better illustrate my point. Just want to get it out there that I don't think Champs should go anywhere near a Cop 13er setup.


    The worst part of adding PRs is that not everyone gets to be a PR, but the worst part of not having them is that no one gets to be. Conversely, the worst part about role madness is that everyone gets a role. You sort of have to pick your poison on this front. I think having a setup with a small number roles is the best mix of things: it lets players largely ignore PRs if they're VT, it allows players that want to leverage being VT in a game with PRs, and it allows players to show what they can do with PRs they get. Wolves get to show off their PR hunting skills. Everyone still has a chance to shine, but they just get to shine in different ways.

    Imagine that it's getting close to EOD, and there's a player who looks like the clear lynch, and suddenly they claim PR. Uh oh, what does everyone do? How does the village react? How do wolves?j "Wolves got $#@!ed because they happened to push the PR." Suck it up buttercup. Show me what you can do when things don't go your way. Adapt. Overcome adversity. I'm sure you could come up with plenty of examples like this where PRs allow unexpected things to happen, and games can get flipped on their heads out of nowhere, and this is a very good thing in a competitive environment. What's better, seeing someone win because everything went their way, or seeing someone win when things definitely didn't go their way and they won anyway. I greatly prefer the latter.

    Lastly, saying that Mountainous is somehow a better Champs format because the one time it was run it seemed to be pretty balanced seems a bit of a stretch. The sample size of Champs that seasons is what? 15 games? IIRC, the seasons that have had setups with PRs haven't been heavily skewed towards town's favor, and Mountainous isn't particularly known for being a town-sided setup. Mountainous being more balanced is the opposite of what you'd expect which means there's likely other factors at play affecting the outcomes. The fact that that season was more balanced likely has a lot more to do with the players that were playing that season, and how the games were randed rather than the setup having some kind of magical golden balance when it's the Champs format.

  12. ISO #62
    Soul Reader moms meatloaf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    1,718
    Timezone
    UTC-08:00
    Community
    The Sock Drawer. https://discord.gg/b3wCWz6
    Gender
    This probably isnt related to above. I wasnt in season 6. But to this day I tell people I meet online and offline that one of the greatest experiences ive ever had was getting to play in two Mafia Championships.
    I played in nationals for chess as a kid, and in supernationals twice in high school. I won nearly 100 trophies as a chess player. But nothing I did in 17 years of playing tournament chess was ever quite as fun or intensely challenging as getting to play in Champs.

    It is social, it is competitive, arguably the most intense and brutal games youll ever play. You make friends, enemies, and memes.

    Bravo to you thingyman and bravo to anyone who got to play season 6
    squiiiiiiiiip
    The Sock Drawer is a new mafia community coming in 2020.
    join our discord and find the right pair of socks for you.

    https://discord.gg/b3wCWz6

  13. ISO #63
    GOAT Tier bearsquared's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    15,524
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    MiniMafia
    Gender
    Also I want to emphasize that I'd be shocked if literally any community played Mountainous, or Mountainous-esque setups with any kind of regularity, and I'd bet money that even if some did, it wouldn't be anywhere near a majority. Throw in delaying the night 1 kill, and you have a setup that's going to be unlike anything the vast majority of the participants have played in on some pretty basic levels. Idk but if I was coming to MU for the first time to play Champs, and I heard the setup was one without PRs and a delayed night 1 kill my initial reaction would be "ew what the $#@!", and not "oh hey that's an interesting setup."

  14. ISO #64
    Soul Reader moms meatloaf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    1,718
    Timezone
    UTC-08:00
    Community
    The Sock Drawer. https://discord.gg/b3wCWz6
    Gender
    I think the fact S4 was mountainous led me to being the nominee. No one wanted to do it lol

  15. ISO #65
    Soul Reader shawnad2006's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    1,178
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    Boardgamegeek
    Pronouns
    she/her/her/hers/herself
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#63)
    Also I want to emphasize that I'd be shocked if literally any community played Mountainous, or Mountainous-esque setups with any kind of regularity, and I'd bet money that even if some did, it wouldn't be anywhere near a majority. Throw in delaying the night 1 kill, and you have a setup that's going to be unlike anything the vast majority of the participants have played in on some pretty basic levels. Idk but if I was coming to MU for the first time to play Champs, and I heard the setup was one without PRs and a delayed night 1 kill my initial reaction would be "ew what the $#@!", and not "oh hey that's an interesting setup."
    That wouldn't be my reaction at all. I think my reaction would be "ah, I guess that makes sense."

  16. ISO #66
    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    13,016
    Community
    Gamefaqs
    Gender
    Any possibility of qualifiers having a role setup (with n1 kills) and semifinals/finals being mountainous (with delayed n1 kill)? That way communities aren't put-off by weirdness, people understand that the "no roles" thing is purely for competitive fairness when it matters, and the jury exists if anyone gets snubbed because player votes overvalued the people who rolled PRs? (and jury can send forward all n1s with promise)
    Last edited by Dels; November 6th, 2019 at 10:10 AM.

  17. ISO #67
    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    13,016
    Community
    Gamefaqs
    Gender
    i totally understand why we'd think communities don't like mountainous, but the mountainous season still got 160 signups and as far as i can tell, people enjoyed participating, at least the general temperature didn't feel much different than the other seasons

  18. ISO #68
    GOAT Tier bearsquared's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    15,524
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    MiniMafia
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#66)
    Any possibility of qualifiers having a role setup (with n1 kills) and semifinals/finals being mountainous (with delayed n1 kill)? That way communities aren't put-off by weirdness, people understand that the "no roles" thing is purely for competitive fairness when it matters, and the jury exists if anyone gets snubbed because player votes overvalued the people who rolled PRs? (and jury can send forward all n1s with promise)
    Competitive fairness for voting purposes, or setup balance? The latter is fixable by testing the setup, and adjusting it through testing. The former... Do we actually know that's a thing? We have the data from a few seasons at this point to measure how often PRs advanced over non-PRs and get an idea of how much it influences voting.

  19. ISO #69
    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    13,016
    Community
    Gamefaqs
    Gender
    every single person who advanced this season was a PR, so clearly it's an unfair bias

    but also not a single PR advanced in season 4!

    i'm joking but actually 2/3 of the recent seasons wouldn't give data.

    and yes, i meant for voting purposes, though setup balance is tied into that since if one side wins every game, it feels rough for the losing team who have way less chance to advance.

  20. ISO #70
    1610 mendel's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    2,016
    Timezone
    UTC+02:00
    Community
    Kongregate
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#52)
    Quote Originally Posted by mhsmith0 (#51)
    for those who dislike mountainous b/c the best players die n1 always, you could always run something like doubleday, though I'm not sure that a game that runs EVEN SLOWER than normal would be fun for all

    Any thoughts on doing something a bit different like double lynch? Top 2 wagons get lynched every day, which adds substantially to town power, but a bad d1 can really destroy a town potentially. idk what #s balance something like that (maybe 11/4 if you like "top 15" as a concept?) but that's a notion.

    I suppose maybe there's some kind of setup that can be run as 16 players, and then semifinals are a set of four games of 16 each (64 total), though that may be a bit *TOO* inclusive for a reasonable round 2...
    I think double lynches, or double days tries to solve the issue of the strongest players always dying n1 problem by making Mountainous, a setup that's likely going to be uncommon on most sites, even more exotic. Adding power roles is a solution to the same problem, and I would bet a considerable amount of money that Mafia games are played with some kind of power role over 99% of the time.
    I understand you to say that adding even a single doctor or watcher to a setup will avoid the mafia killing the strongest two players, because one of them is likely to be protected. It would be enough to make these roles one-shots, active N1 only.
    This hopefully also does away with "playing to look scummy" as a way to live longer.
    Mad 17 D1 Massclaim - Champs flavor -- looking for subs!
    How to slank in Mafia games -- share your experiences!
    Makaze does not enjoy killing the women who date him.

  21. ISO #71
    1610 mendel's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    2,016
    Timezone
    UTC+02:00
    Community
    Kongregate
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#63)
    Also I want to emphasize that I'd be shocked if literally any community played Mountainous, or Mountainous-esque setups with any kind of regularity, and I'd bet money that even if some did, it wouldn't be anywhere near a majority. Throw in delaying the night 1 kill, and you have a setup that's going to be unlike anything the vast majority of the participants have played in on some pretty basic levels. Idk but if I was coming to MU for the first time to play Champs, and I heard the setup was one without PRs and a delayed night 1 kill my initial reaction would be "ew what the $#@!", and not "oh hey that's an interesting setup."
    Well, we do want to shrink the tournament...

    Btw, in Mountainous, Wolves already shine differently than townies. You're never going to evaluate all of the players on the same basis, unless you're using a symmetric multiball setup, which isn't going to be a pure mafia game any more.
    Mad 17 D1 Massclaim - Champs flavor -- looking for subs!
    How to slank in Mafia games -- share your experiences!
    Makaze does not enjoy killing the women who date him.

  22. ISO #72
    1610 mendel's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    2,016
    Timezone
    UTC+02:00
    Community
    Kongregate
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#69)
    every single person who advanced this season was a PR, so clearly it's an unfair bias

    but also not a single PR advanced in season 4!

    i'm joking but actually 2/3 of the recent seasons wouldn't give data.

    and yes, i meant for voting purposes, though setup balance is tied into that since if one side wins every game, it feels rough for the losing team who have way less chance to advance.
    What's the data on wolf advances, then?
    Mad 17 D1 Massclaim - Champs flavor -- looking for subs!
    How to slank in Mafia games -- share your experiences!
    Makaze does not enjoy killing the women who date him.

  23. ISO #73
    Wants It Most Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Sharing opinions nobody asked for
    Posts
    38,067
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#1)
    People generally join for a mix of competitive and social reasons, but skewing more towards competitive.
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#3)
    Changing course for a minute, the other yearslong debate in Champs is whether the series as a whole is primarily a tournament designed to find the best mafia players out there or whether it's more of a social event. This question has been asked and answered by none other than Thingy himself (primarily a social event)
    This is everything you need to know about what's wrong with Champs

    It's poorly named

  24. ISO #74
    1610 mendel's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    2,016
    Timezone
    UTC+02:00
    Community
    Kongregate
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#73)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#1)
    People generally join for a mix of competitive and social reasons, but skewing more towards competitive.
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#3)
    Changing course for a minute, the other yearslong debate in Champs is whether the series as a whole is primarily a tournament designed to find the best mafia players out there or whether it's more of a social event. This question has been asked and answered by none other than Thingy himself (primarily a social event)
    This is everything you need to know about what's wrong with Champs

    It's poorly named
    "Mafia Pub Brawl"?
    Mad 17 D1 Massclaim - Champs flavor -- looking for subs!
    How to slank in Mafia games -- share your experiences!
    Makaze does not enjoy killing the women who date him.

  25. ISO #75
    GOAT Tier bearsquared's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    15,524
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    MiniMafia
    Gender
    Despite having better things to do, I do like to do my own work. I went back to S5, and made a table of each player that was named in voting (top 4 in qualifiers, top 5 WCs/Finale), and put down their role:
    Player Alignment Role Points
    1 Nego Mafia Goon 48
    2 Poyser Mafia Goon 42
    3 Slaan Town Vanilla 27
    4 Tea Town Vanilla 26
    1 Violet Town Voyeur 50
    2 Elieson Town Vanilla 35
    3 Insaner Mafia Vanilla 24
    4 HATER Town Vanilla 18
    1 Psycho666Soldier Mafia Goon 58
    2 Dad Town Vanilla 39
    3 Fable Mafia Role Cop 22
    4 Cobalt Mafia Goon 21
    1 Darren Sanders Mafia Role Cop 62
    2 Ampharos Town Motion Detector 29
    3 Gir Town Vanilla 23
    4 Cuthalion Town Vanilla 18
    4 JohnCarter Mafia Goon 18
    1 Empoof Town Vanilla 37
    2 Buffy Town Voyeur 31
    3 SilverKeith Town Vanilla 26
    4 Ultra Town Vanilla 23
    1 GeneralHankerchief Town Vanilla 65
    2 abyssum Town Vanilla 39
    3 DaveDob Mafia Goon 37
    4 Archangel Mafia Goon 26
    1 Paratroopa Town Vanilla 48
    2 Jackofhearts2005 Mafia Goon 45
    3 Darkmanticorex2 Mafia Goon 43
    4 hey_monkey Town Vanilla 34
    1 Boquise Mafia Goon 57
    2 shakespeare Mafia Goon 40
    3 myc Town Vanilla 40
    4 TK5141 Mafia Goon 30
    1 Mexal Mafia Goon 63
    2 Zack Town Vanilla 53
    3 M Plus 7 Town Vanilla 32
    4 beruru Town Vanilla 16
    1 Panther Town Vanilla 43
    2 Five Town Jailkeeper 37
    3 Apoc Town Vanilla 31
    4 Arapocalypse Town Vanilla 27
    1 Five Mafia Goon 64
    2 M Plus 7 Town Vanilla 44
    3 Arapocalypse Town Vanilla 27
    4 Apoc Town Vanilla 23
    5 Slaan Town Vanilla 22
    1 hey_monkey Mafia Goon 55
    2 Secondhand Revenant Town Vanilla 37
    3 Darkmanticorex2 Mafia Goon 27
    4 SilverKeith Town Roleblocker 26
    5 Fable Mafia Goon 21
    1 GeneralHankerchief Mafia Goon 48
    2 Mexal Town Vanilla 41
    3 DS Mafia Goon 33
    4 SilverKeith Mafia Goon 31
    5 Empoof Mafia Goon 23


    To start, my hypothesis is that PRs basically don't effect voting significantly in one way or the other. I could do a more sophisticated analysis, but I did a fairly quick and dirty one. After collecting the data, I found that the % of players that "placed" (received enough votes to be in the top 4/5) was 12.5%.

    The 2x5 setup allows for 2-4 total PRs across both alignments. At most 1 for Mafia, and 2-3 Town PRs. This is where someone who is a better statistician than I could figure out what the actual expected percentage of PRs to podium would be, but I'm going to napkin math it.

    Let's establish some boundaries. 2/17 ~= 11.8%, 3/17 ~= 17.6%, and 4/17 ~= 23.5%. The expected number of PRs to podium should be between 11.8% and 23.5%. I think the true mean would be closest to 17.6% just looking at the setup, but again, if someone wants to do the math and find the actual one be my guest. This also assumes that each player is equally likely to receive votes. That assumption is not really going to hold because there's a bias (and a justifiable one) towards players of the winning faction. Additionally, there's likely some kind of bias towards town as they are the bigger faction. This would make the true expected mean a bit fuzzier, but somewhere between 12 and 24% is a safe range.

    Of the 13 total games, Mafia won 70% of the time, and players from the winning team tend to receive more votes than players from the losing team. Mafia have at most 1 PR which means in this sample we should expect the number of PRs to podium needs to drift towards the lower bound. 12.5% is still totally plausible here.

    Then I looked at average points based on role. I don't have all the data because I don't have all the votes, but I worked with what I had. The average points received by placing players was 35.80 points. PRs across all games received the following point values: 50, 22, 62, 29, 31, 37, 26. The mean of that sample is 36.7. A difference of +0.9 does not seem statistically significant with this sample size.

    Of the 4 games Town won, a total of 17 players placed. 13 of those 17 players were Town. 2 of those 13 players were PRs, or 15.4%. Sample size issues aside, the percentage here is likely lower than the expected mean, but it's still well within the realm of reasonable.

    Of the 9 games Mafia won, a total of 39 players placed. 20 of those 39 players were Mafia. 2 of those 20 players were PRs, or 10%. Mafia have 1 PR out 4 players 50% of the time so the expected percentage of the total Mafia player population to be PRs was 12.5%. Everything still seems to be relatively close to the expected numbers.




    I'm going to go do those better things I mentioned earlier, but if anything, players who rand PR may be at a slight disadvantage looking at the numbers here. There is a pretty big sample size issue so the margin of error is likely pretty hefty. This, if nothing else, seems to show that there was no evidence that being a PR was a significant advantage, or disadvantage on the outcomes of voting in Season 5.

  26. ISO #76
    Soul Reader Soneji's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Florida Keys
    Posts
    1,145
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    Narutoforums
    AKA
    WolfPrinceKouga, WPK
    Pronouns
    he/him/his/his/himself
    Gender
    Being the actual one with the PR role rarely matters as mafia as you work as a team, so anyone on the team can be making decisions regarding its usage. Just something to keep in mind with the data.

  27. ISO #77
    Most sites I've visited play one-off closed set-ups that are never repeated, and have all manner of crazy, swingy powers.

    People talk like an open set-up with cop/doc/vig or whatever is some kind of happy medium between the above and mountainous, but it actually hands a huge advantage to people used to playing those kinds of set-ups in a way that mountainous does not. The skills needed for mountainous are present in all mafia games; the skills particular to cop-hunt games (for example) are extremely niche.

    The hate for mountainous is such that it probably shouldn't be used in champs, but don't pretend you're not stacking the deck if you choose set-ups of the type that predominate here on MU.

  28. ISO #78
    Or just ignore the hate and go mountainous because it's fair, and champs games will always be fun regardless of the set-up.

  29. ISO #79
    1610 mendel's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    2,016
    Timezone
    UTC+02:00
    Community
    Kongregate
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by McGinty (#78)
    Or just ignore the hate and go mountainous because it's fair, and champs games will always be fun regardless of the set-up.
    In what respect is Mountainous fair? The argument that different town players evaluate differently depending on whoch game phases they're alive in holds, and the argument that wolves can show off different skills than town players (especially for a deepwolf win) holds as well.

    If we're going for a social event, make the setup fun, not fair! There's always an aspect of luck to Champs!

    I still need 8 signups for the Mad17 Massclaim game that's set to start on Monday!
    Last edited by mendel; November 9th, 2019 at 02:59 AM.
    Mad 17 D1 Massclaim - Champs flavor -- looking for subs!
    How to slank in Mafia games -- share your experiences!
    Makaze does not enjoy killing the women who date him.

  30. ISO #80
    Hello

    new person here. Followed this game (after the fact) from an offsite link. Just wanted to say, in my opinion, there seemed several times where plays were determined by player reputations or prior connections between players. Wouldn't an anon game limit that, or at last encourage it to be more about the gameplay (and the inherent manipulation therein) and less about prior factors?

  31. ISO #81
    Thread Analyst Okaun and Zndrsplt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    240
    Pronouns
    they/them/their/theirs/themself
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by PepperoniLover (#80)
    Hello

    new person here. Followed this game (after the fact) from an offsite link. Just wanted to say, in my opinion, there seemed several times where plays were determined by player reputations or prior connections between players. Wouldn't an anon game limit that, or at last encourage it to be more about the gameplay (and the inherent manipulation therein) and less about prior factors?
    Curious where you felt that way

    Anon makes it more difficult to spectate (people do come from other sites sometimes to see the people they know play) and that is a lot harder to keep under wraps for 150 or so people too. Also not being obvious in anon is kind of a skill to pick up for some people that isn't really rewarded.

    Have you played many anon games where you're from?

    - Secondhand Revenant (too lazy to sign out of a hydra account)

  32. ISO #82
    Never played anon but noticed it here when I looked around the site and became intrigued.

    What I saw in the championship game basically, wading in; was deference paid to the more awarded (notable) players, too much argumentation based on prior games 'so and so did X as scum' and, of course, later on when maybe some players allowed themselves to overlook things based on non game reasons. I don't want to list specific examples because I don't want t look like I'm browbeating anyone (also I didn't write specific instances of this down nd I don't want to re-read all that stuff to produce evidence) so lets just call it a feeling from an relatively unbiased observer.


    I admit though these were all town faults that scum wisely preyed upon. But I couldn't help thinking given the mechanics of the game and how the town was basically managed during the day, had it been an anon game perhaps some of the personality factor would have weighed less in the outcome.

    Anyway that's just how I saw it as I read it (knowing the outcome). I am sure it reads differently if followed in real time.

  33. ISO #83
    1610 mendel's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    2,016
    Timezone
    UTC+02:00
    Community
    Kongregate
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by PepperoniLover (#82)
    Never played anon but noticed it here when I looked around the site and became intrigued.

    What I saw in the championship game basically, wading in; was deference paid to the more awarded (notable) players, too much argumentation based on prior games 'so and so did X as scum' and, of course, later on when maybe some players allowed themselves to overlook things based on non game reasons. I don't want to list specific examples because I don't want t look like I'm browbeating anyone (also I didn't write specific instances of this down nd I don't want to re-read all that stuff to produce evidence) so lets just call it a feeling from an relatively unbiased observer.


    I admit though these were all town faults that scum wisely preyed upon. But I couldn't help thinking given the mechanics of the game and how the town was basically managed during the day, had it been an anon game perhaps some of the personality factor would have weighed less in the outcome.

    Anyway that's just how I saw it as I read it (knowing the outcome). I am sure it reads differently if followed in real time.
    Playing anonymously in champs is technically impossible (players get kicked from spectator chat discord).
    Playing anonymously defeats the purpose of Championships being a social event that conneczs people.
    I don't like the use of "meta" myself, but of course knowing how a player's style differs as scum or as town comes naturally to anyone who's ever watched for "tells" in a poker game. We do have anon games on the site, in fact, the Halloween Mash that just concluded was anonymous.
    Mad 17 D1 Massclaim - Champs flavor -- looking for subs!
    How to slank in Mafia games -- share your experiences!
    Makaze does not enjoy killing the women who date him.

  34. ISO #84
    Bandwagoner Gemma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    79
    Timezone
    UTC+10:30
    Community
    Westeros
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#3)
    Changing course for a minute, the other yearslong debate in Champs is whether the series as a whole is primarily a tournament designed to find the best mafia players out there or whether it's more of a social event. This question has been asked and answered by none other than Thingy himself (primarily a social event)
    That doesn't make sense? Only "the best" proceed and even if you have 140 people who are there for social reasons and 20 people who are there to compete, the 20 people who are there to compete are going to be disproportionately represented in the later stages of the event, which makes the format inherently competitive, no?

  35. ISO #85
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#79)
    In what respect is Mountainous fair?
    In the sense that it only tests skills that are universal to all types of mafia, instead of advantaging players experienced in specific variants.

    It also affords the minimum possible variation according to role.

    Most people may find the game more fun when power roles are involved, but there's no valid argument against mountainous on competitive grounds. It is the original game around which all variants (to the extent that they are mafia at all) are built. It's elegant, easily balanced, and offers the clearest possible test of the game's core skillset.

    Only personal taste counts against it. But, as I say, the distaste is so strong and widespread that it seems wrong to choose it for champs (at least until a bit more time has passed since its last outing). This is a social event, first and foremost, so competitive fairness has to take a backseat.

  36. ISO #86
    GOAT Tier bearsquared's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    15,524
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    MiniMafia
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by McGinty (#85)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#79)
    In what respect is Mountainous fair?
    In the sense that it only tests skills that are universal to all types of mafia, instead of advantaging players experienced in specific variants.

    It also affords the minimum possible variation according to role.

    Most people may find the game more fun when power roles are involved, but there's no valid argument against mountainous on competitive grounds. It is the original game around which all variants (to the extent that they are mafia at all) are built. It's elegant, easily balanced, and offers the clearest possible test of the game's core skillset.

    Only personal taste counts against it. But, as I say, the distaste is so strong and widespread that it seems wrong to choose it for champs (at least until a bit more time has passed since its last outing). This is a social event, first and foremost, so competitive fairness has to take a backseat.
    There are sites with metas that are PR centric. The way the players in those communities think about the game of Mafia is how they interact with the PRs in the game. Mountainous doesn't make it so no one has advantage based on the setup, it just changes who has the advantage.

    For starters, a valid argument against Mountainous on competitive grounds is that the proposed setup is not even Mountainous. It's a variant of Mountainous that tries to address a significant issue with in a competitive setting which is the player's that are perceived to be the best on Town will die on Night 1 basically every time. To say there's no valid argument against Mountainous is simply refusing to engage with the people who are making arguments against it. There are communities that play exclusively with PRs, and it is rare even on MU for games to have 0 PRs. A valid argument against Mountainous on competitive grounds is that PR play is a skill. Removing it from the game because it makes creating a balanced setup more difficult isn't a good reason.

    Minimizing variation caused by the setup makes sense in the abstract, but what are the goals of minimizing that variance? Articulate specifically what reducing role variance is in service of. If you think the variance should be reduced to ensure everyone is equally likely to receive votes, I made a post analyzing the voting results of season 5, and found there was no evidence to support the claim that randing a power role affected voting significantly. If you want to minimize it to ensure relatively balanced outcomes, Mountainous tends to favor Mafia, at least on MU, so it's not necessarily a balanced setup to begin with. Setup balance with a new setup can be addressed through adequate testing, and feedback based improvements done before Champs which is something that's already been brought up.

    So no, it's not just personal taste that counts against Mountainous.

  37. ISO #87
    PR play is not one skill. It's any number of possible skills, entirely dependent on the role, game-type and game-state in question. Players who have experienced that role, game-type and game-state will inevitably have an advantage. When taking players from diverse cultures, most of them will have no chance at all of gaining such an advantage, unless the chosen game-type happens to be one they are familiar with.

    I'd also argue that in all the seasons of the championships, only a vanishingly tiny number of players have distinguished themselves based on PR play. Even if they might have been able to do so, most players simply didn't get the chance. And, regardless of the set-up, most never will get that chance.

    And none of this is mere speculation. Just look at this year's champs. Nearly all of those players had experience of role-heavy games, but very few of them had experience of set-ups like the one chosen. The result was a few people finding it much easier to cope with than the rest thanks to their familiarity, and an awful lot of people looking very lost indeed. There wasn't anything wrong with those players - nearly everyone who plays champs is very capable - it's just hard to show it when you're wrestling with a host of unfamiliar factors.

    Contrast any mountainous game you might ever come across. Any player who can't town well without a role is not a great player. Even in role-heavy games, vanillas or weak/irrelevant powers are near ubiquitous, so you need to be able both to scumhunt using thread analysis and to avoid being mislynched. And the essence of good scumming, with or without powers, is fundamentally the same: look sufficiently townie, and get ahead of the game. And, what is more, these are exactly the qualities that people continually identify as marking out the better players in champs, even when the set-up is highly power-focused.

  38. ISO #88
    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#86)
    If you want to minimize it to ensure relatively balanced outcomes, Mountainous tends to favor Mafia, at least on MU, so it's not necessarily a balanced setup to begin with.
    This point is slightly odd. Mountainous only favours one side or the other based on numbers. It's the easiest set-up to balance for that exact reason: there are no other variables to worry about. In contrast to any game with meaningful powers, there is virtually no luck-based swing, save that dictated by the initial rand into town and scum piles (which is one thing no genuinely competitive game should ever try to balance out).

  39. ISO #89
    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    13,016
    Community
    Gamefaqs
    Gender
    Well, here's an analogy: Don't competitive Smash tournaments turn items off? Even though the majority of players play using items, it's considered a more even playing field without them. Even though many people could make a case that proper play around items is a skill, it's still understood why they'd be off for competitive events.

    Do you think this is an accurate analogy or is there a fundamental difference between the two that makes it inapplicable? (I don't actually play Smash so forgive me if I'm missing something, it was just the first example to come to mind)

    I ask not to make any point, just as a thought exercise

  40. ISO #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#89)
    Well, here's an analogy: Don't competitive Smash tournaments turn items off? Even though the majority of players play using items, it's considered a more even playing field without them. Even though many people could make a case that proper play around items is a skill, it's still understood why they'd be off for competitive events.

    Do you think this is an accurate analogy or is there a fundamental difference between the two that makes it inapplicable? (I don't actually play Smash so forgive me if I'm missing something, it was just the first example to come to mind)

    I ask not to make any point, just as a thought exercise
    but champs is primarily a social event, and playing smash bros socially you'd definitely use items

  41. ISO #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemma (#84)
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#3)
    Changing course for a minute, the other yearslong debate in Champs is whether the series as a whole is primarily a tournament designed to find the best mafia players out there or whether it's more of a social event. This question has been asked and answered by none other than Thingy himself (primarily a social event)
    That doesn't make sense? Only "the best" proceed and even if you have 140 people who are there for social reasons and 20 people who are there to compete, the 20 people who are there to compete are going to be disproportionately represented in the later stages of the event, which makes the format inherently competitive, no?
    the reason why someone is in champs is hardly connected with their odds of advancement, if at all

  42. ISO #92
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    12,330
    Timezone
    UTC-07:00
    Community
    PlayDiplomacy, MafiaScum
    Pronouns
    he/him/his/his/himself
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemma (#84)
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#3)
    Changing course for a minute, the other yearslong debate in Champs is whether the series as a whole is primarily a tournament designed to find the best mafia players out there or whether it's more of a social event. This question has been asked and answered by none other than Thingy himself (primarily a social event)
    That doesn't make sense? Only "the best" proceed and even if you have 140 people who are there for social reasons and 20 people who are there to compete, the 20 people who are there to compete are going to be disproportionately represented in the later stages of the event, which makes the format inherently competitive, no?
    I think it does make sense? There are a lot of "competitive" events where the real purpose is to get people together to have fun in a social environment, as opposed to being fundamentally about finding the best player / crowning a champion / etc.

    Like, if I get a group of neighbors together to have a poker tournament, PART of it is about the play and the money, but i think more of it is about just getting together to do something fun.
    Life is simply unfair... don't you think?
    http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=mhsmith0

    BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me

  43. ISO #93
    GOAT Tier bearsquared's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    15,524
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    MiniMafia
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by McGinty (#87)
    PR play is not one skill. It's any number of possible skills, entirely dependent on the role, game-type and game-state in question. Players who have experienced that role, game-type and game-state will inevitably have an advantage. When taking players from diverse cultures, most of them will have no chance at all of gaining such an advantage, unless the chosen game-type happens to be one they are familiar with.

    I'd also argue that in all the seasons of the championships, only a vanishingly tiny number of players have distinguished themselves based on PR play. Even if they might have been able to do so, most players simply didn't get the chance. And, regardless of the set-up, most never will get that chance.

    And none of this is mere speculation. Just look at this year's champs. Nearly all of those players had experience of role-heavy games, but very few of them had experience of set-ups like the one chosen. The result was a few people finding it much easier to cope with than the rest thanks to their familiarity, and an awful lot of people looking very lost indeed. There wasn't anything wrong with those players - nearly everyone who plays champs is very capable - it's just hard to show it when you're wrestling with a host of unfamiliar factors.

    Contrast any mountainous game you might ever come across. Any player who can't town well without a role is not a great player. Even in role-heavy games, vanillas or weak/irrelevant powers are near ubiquitous, so you need to be able both to scumhunt using thread analysis and to avoid being mislynched. And the essence of good scumming, with or without powers, is fundamentally the same: look sufficiently townie, and get ahead of the game. And, what is more, these are exactly the qualities that people continually identify as marking out the better players in champs, even when the set-up is highly power-focused.
    While I agree that different PRs can utilize a different set of skills, there are a general set of skills that can apply with town PRs in the game. If the setup has roles, or doesn't have roles, there will be a subset of players who have an advantage because of the familiarity with the kind of setup it is, or from a variety of other factor. Always. The setup is typically tested on MU first so there will be players who have actually played the setup before, and will have an obvious advantage there.

    No player will ever get the chance to distinguish themselves via PR play if the setup is Mountainous by definition. Just because it has never happened before doesn't mean it will never happen.

    I would argue against role madness setups for reasons you described. The mechanics are not easy to wrap your head around quickly, and it isn't clear which alignment has which roles, dramatically increasing the possibility space. We agree on this point. I am specifically advocating for a small number of roles.

    I reject the notion that great players must be great at Mountainous. Mafia games are diverse enough that a player can be great for reasons that aren't evident in Mountainous. MU gives an award each year for "Best Mechanical Player" for players that have distinguished themselves by playing exceptionally with in-games mechanics, nearly always related to PRs. Panther recently won this award in 2018, and in the Frostpunk game that year, he identified not one, but two players as Town Cops in a closed setup. As it turns out, both players in fact Town Cops. I'm sure Panther would be competent in a Mountainous setup, saying that play like that is meaningless on his or anyone else's resume is ridiculous.

    Players who can't play well on the primary axis of Mafia, making reads as Town or surviving as Mafia, isn't going to go far in Champs regardless of the setup. Having PRs in the setup simply offers another axis by which players are able to express skill. It adds value, it doesn't take any away.

    Quote Originally Posted by McGinty (#88)
    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#86)
    If you want to minimize it to ensure relatively balanced outcomes, Mountainous tends to favor Mafia, at least on MU, so it's not necessarily a balanced setup to begin with.
    This point is slightly odd. Mountainous only favours one side or the other based on numbers. It's the easiest set-up to balance for that exact reason: there are no other variables to worry about. In contrast to any game with meaningful powers, there is virtually no luck-based swing, save that dictated by the initial rand into town and scum piles (which is one thing no genuinely competitive game should ever try to balance out).
    Trying to balance Mountainous by numbers is the opposite of easy. Let's say 12-3 is Mafia-sided. We try tweaking it to 14-3, and it turns out that setup is now Town-sided by the same amount that 12-3 is Mafia-sided. Okay now what? Even numbered setups suck so we're not going to try 13-3. How do you adjust that to be slightly more Mafia-sided? The optimal numbers for Mountainous might be 12.5 to 3, but you can't have 12.5 players on Town. To maintain that ratio you'd have to double the number of players on both sides to 25, and 6. Well, now you have a 31 player setup, and doubling numbers doesn't necessarily have the same properties either. The game lasts a lot longer now which affects wolf fatigue, and they won't have enough KP to kill the loud voices in time, etc. etc.

    Mountainous has no levers to pull, or knobs to turn to affect balance. You have to resort to altering game mechanics like removing Mafia's KP night 1, or using an arson night kill, or adding BPVs, or whatever else people have tried, but then that's defeating the stated purpose of using Mountainous to begin with: using a "pure" setup. The reality is the "pure" setup has problems, and the problems straight up can't be fixed without adding squirrelly, exotic mechanics. Removing the Night 1 kill, or changing the night kill to an arsonist kill is fundamentally changing a primary axis of game play. And I explicitly want to make it clear that I'm not trying to $#@! on GH here, I think those are interesting ideas, and worth exploring, but not in Champs. Those are more offensive things to have in the setup than just adding a couple of common PRs, because it doesn't quite feel like a normal game of Mafia to me.

  44. ISO #94
    Loansharking blot test Newcomb's Avatar Head Moderator
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    4,006
    Community
    DLP
    Gender
    Just run WitchHunt.

    That'll definitely help with reducing the number of communities :v

  45. ISO #95
    Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Mod Logic's Avatar Discord Moderator
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    WA, USA
    Posts
    4,323
    Timezone
    UTC-08:00
    Community
    Giant in the Playground
    AKA
    Yakostovian, Planet-Man
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#94)
    Just run WitchHunt.

    That'll definitely help with reducing the number of communities :v
    THING mafia for Champs, anyone?
    Last edited by Logic; November 13th, 2019 at 12:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mercedes (#2248)
    Man, Logic is hitting hard left and wrong
    Quote Originally Posted by Logic
    Need a sub? PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Foster Wallace
    The next real literary "rebels" in this country might well emerge as some weird bunch of anti-rebels, born oglers who dare somehow to back away from ironic watching, who have the childish gall actually to endorse and instantiate single-entendre principles. Who treat of plain old untrendy human troubles and emotions in U.S. life with reverence and conviction. Who eschew self-consciousness and hip fatigue. These anti-rebels would be outdated, of course, before they even started. Dead on the page. Too sincere. Clearly repressed. Backward, quaint, naive, anachronistic. Maybe that'll be the point. Maybe that's why they'll be the next real rebels. Real rebels, as far as I can see, risk disapproval. The old postmodern insurgents risked the gasp and squeal: shock, disgust, outrage, censorship, accusations of socialism, anarchism, nihilism. Today's risks are different. The new rebels might be artists willing to risk the yawn, the rolled eyes, the cool smile, the nudged ribs, the parody of gifted ironists, the "Oh how banal". To risk accusations of sentimentality, melodrama. Of overcredulity. Of softness. Of willingness to be suckered by a world of lurkers and starers who fear gaze and ridicule above imprisonment without law. Who knows.

  46. ISO #96
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    12,330
    Timezone
    UTC-07:00
    Community
    PlayDiplomacy, MafiaScum
    Pronouns
    he/him/his/his/himself
    Gender
    Did someone call for JESTERS?????
    Life is simply unfair... don't you think?
    http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=mhsmith0

    BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me

  47. ISO #97
    GOAT Tier Shad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    16,899
    Gender
    Batman was robbed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Panther
    I thought you were a nerd last week but then I saw you say you play golf and remember you said you chewed so you're some kind of unicorn or something

  48. ISO #98
    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    13,016
    Community
    Gamefaqs
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#90)
    but champs is primarily a social event, and playing smash bros socially you'd definitely use items
    alas, it seems we are perpetually stuck from champs having an identity crisis between social and competitive

    i don't see why gemma is wrong though, aren't the people who get chosen for wildcards/finals much more likely to be the people who joined to play competitively?

  49. ISO #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#98)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#90)
    but champs is primarily a social event, and playing smash bros socially you'd definitely use items
    alas, it seems we are perpetually stuck from champs having an identity crisis between social and competitive

    i don't see why gemma is wrong though, aren't the people who get chosen for wildcards/finals much more likely to be the people who joined to play competitively?
    Well thingy is quoted in this thread as saying it's primarily a social event. Frankly I've always been a bit baffled that some people take the competitive aspect so deadly serious. On CFC and the Org, pretty much every year our representatives have been determined by someone volunteering themselves and saying "sure I guess I'll do it" and everyone else saying "alright good luck man". And from what I've heard from others, this is the case for a lot of sites.

    But there's this weird implication being suggested that someone who participates in champs for reasons other than pure competition (ignoring how it doesn't actually make much sense to delineate the complex motivations for participating in champs into such a simple binary determination as "competitive" or not competitive, but whatever) ... that doesn't mean those players are less skilled or are not going to still do their best to play at a high level and represent their community well. Not to mention, there's a whole meme (Champs Hero Syndrome) based around people in champs who try way too hard and fail spectacularly. Whether you view the larger champs competition as primarily a social event or a competitive one has little to do with treating your individual game as a serious competition. There's no reason to think someone who joins for the social aspect is not going to still try and play to the best of their ability in their game(s).

  50. ISO #100
    I also find it strange when people argue it's primarily a competitive event in the same breath as advocating for postcaps. If the main purpose is truly competition, there shouldn't be postcaps. If the main purpose is social, they're integral in order to make the games more enjoyable.

    edit: maybe these are separate camps, idk. but it's still odd to me
    Last edited by Zack; November 13th, 2019 at 10:47 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Keyboard Shortcuts

about us
Mafia Universe is a community hub for people who enjoy playing the forum variant of Mafia (also known as Werewolf). We offer fully automated Mafia games and a wide variety of customized features crafted to optimize your game experience. We also proudly host the Internet's only database of Mafia/Werewolf communities.

We hope you stick around!
Role of the Day
Double Agent

The Double Agent is an independently aligned player who is part of the mafia faction and has an additional secret individual kill. The Double Agent wins by being last man standing.