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Thread: #23: The Ten Worst Mislynches in Champs History and How to Avoid Them (by GeneralHankerchief)

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    #23: The Ten Worst Mislynches in Champs History and How to Avoid Them (by GeneralHankerchief)

    Article #23: The Ten Worst Mislynches in Champs History and How to Avoid Them
    - written by GeneralHankerchief

    Note: This article was written shortly before the start of Season 7.

    Hi, GeneralHankerchief here. The annual Mafia Championship is my single favorite event on MU, and it has been ever since I first joined the site in March 2016. In my time on the site and as a part of this community, I've followed countless Champs games as a player, a two-time member of the jury, a host, and simply as a spectator.

    While each game creates its own unique sequence of events, it's pretty hard to deny that a pattern has emerged: Champs games are far more prone to... let's call it head-scratching lynches than your average game is. This can be for a number of reasons: the increased pressure on players to perform well or even be the town hero, the inevitable culture clash that occurs, and the comparative lack of meta that people are able to rely on to provide a baseline for analyzing other people's behavior. I'm here today to talk about some of these historical mislynches that we remember years later.

    I won't deny that this article's creation is an excuse for me to write a fun list and spark debates, both here and in spectator chat. That said, I firmly believe that not only every game but every phase is a learning experience that teaches us a lesson we can hopefully apply in order to become better mafia players. As a spectator of Champs and just someone who likes watching good play, my hope is that this article will bring some lessons from these historical mislynches to light so that we - not just future Champs players, but everyone - can learn from them and improve our town games in the future.

    Now that we've gotten the educational disclosure out of the way, let's present the mislynches in the most clickbait-y form imaginable: a top ten list!


    #10: romanov, Season 3, Game 4, Day 1

    The background: Day 1 of a Champs qualifier is always when culture clash is at its highest, because the players are potentially easing themselves into the unfamiliar environment for the first time. Some people are super polite when entering into this environment for the first time. Others are friendly, trying to establish a rapport with these new players. Others still are cautious, trying to feel people out and get a grip on things. And some people come barreling straight out of the gate. romanov was part of this final category of players.

    Quote Originally Posted by romanov (#15)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackrito (#8)
    So it seems that I get the honour of first post in this game, lucky me. None of us should know each other so my normal day one moves will lose a lot of effect. So to begin with does anyone have any decent day one tactics, that they use from thier own groups. Since I think a good start is to get a feel for each other, to see early mindsets.
    i dont know if it's a good tactic but on my home site i claim the cop day 1 in setups with and without cops

    im the cop
    Quote Originally Posted by romanov (#16)
    we also play with 2.5 hour days and 30 minute nights so this game will feel like im on an opium binge. entertain me
    Quote Originally Posted by romanov (#17)
    Quote Originally Posted by Collector Elwood (#10)
    excellent this site supports courier new

    lol I set an alarm for 7:30 so I could be here right when the game started but my body was having none of that nonsense today so congrats on the first post babe

    Anyway, I'm sort of in the same predicament. Usually I like to keep the conversation going between players, even if it's all just frivolous, because it will give of a sense of their tone, basic voice, and posting habit; which I've always found useful in reading people later on. Not the most refined and cold strategy, but it's worked for me before.

    also love the theme
    this guy is probably maf. basically diksukking in 3 ways in this post

    1) calling a player with an androgynous anime avatar a babe
    2) "not the most refined... strategy but it's worked before" is so half $%#! and hedgy
    3) also LOVE the theme is a total mod $#@!suck trying to get his entry post to just slide right in

    ##Vote collector elwood
    Quote Originally Posted by romanov (#18)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackrito (#8)
    So it seems that I get the honour of first post in this game, lucky me. None of us should know each other so my normal day one moves will lose a lot of effect. So to begin with does anyone have any decent day one tactics, that they use from thier own groups. Since I think a good start is to get a feel for each other, to see early mindsets.
    this guy also probably mafia too for the explainy $#@! above and asking people for tactics, trying to seem like a helpful bro while not really supplying $#@! regarding the setup.
    Quote Originally Posted by romanov (#19)
    Quote Originally Posted by romanov (#18)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackrito (#8)
    So it seems that I get the honour of first post in this game, lucky me. None of us should know each other so my normal day one moves will lose a lot of effect. So to begin with does anyone have any decent day one tactics, that they use from thier own groups. Since I think a good start is to get a feel for each other, to see early mindsets.
    this guy also probably mafia too for the explainy $#@! above and asking people for tactics, trying to seem like a helpful bro while not really supplying $#@! regarding the setup.
    it would also explain how collector elwood new jackrito was a babe? i would've assumed jackrito was just some dude with a weird jap-culture chick fetish dude named jack


    In the first 20 posts of the game, seven of which were pregame information/flavor and six more of which were his own, romanov came out with two separate scumreads and even managed to form an associative read based off an opening interaction between two other players.

    romanov later backed off on one of the reads, but he grew more confident in his second scumread (Collector Elwood) that he doubled down and claimed cop with a n0 guilty result on Elwood.

    Quote Originally Posted by romanov (#231)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zexy (#230)
    Quote Originally Posted by romanov (#227)
    so nobody for ellwood? i have more news on the ellwood front if ppl want it
    just tell us lol
    k. im the cop with the n0 investigation and got ellwood as maf pregame. hopefully this is believable considering i started out so hot on his $#@!ing $%#! but i figure i will be night killed n1 since i was too strong anyway. here is the info, sucks we cant majo


    The problem was that cops can't get n0 guilty results on MU, only innocent results. The second problem was that the rest of the players eventually became made aware of this through a combination of someone figuring it out and Thingyman confirming it in the thread. As a result, romanov's fakeclaim became the leading topic of the day. That combined with his aggressive temperament made momentum very much against him, and even though he made cogent cases against people, his lynch was never really in doubt.

    Why it was a bad lynch: For starters, a lot of people outright admitted that romanov was at least partly a policy lynch. While policy lynching people for behavior is something that I won't touch on here, policy lynching people for their gameplay is something that generally should be avoided. A lot of people in this one saw "romanov lied about his claim and got caught in it, get him", which is something all of us need to get beyond if we want to take the next step as players. Fancy plays can be annoying, but they can also be useful, and you need to learn how to handle them.

    This lynch isn't higher up on the list because D1 in Champs is always a bit of a crapshoot with the culture clash and there are some mitigating factors of people maybe just outright not wanting to play with him, but at the end of the day I think romanov's aggression should have fairly easily been read for what it was: aggressive solving, and not general incompetence made by a wolf. A few people got there, but not nearly enough.

    To make matters worse, romanov was rather on-target. He had two wolves nailed for pretty much the entire day, and for good reasons too.

    Lessons learned: We get a couple here. To start, keep in mind that culture clash exists. For a lot of players in this qualifier, romanov might have been the first player they ever experienced with such an aggressive style. Not to put words in that town's mouth, but I do think that several people thought along the lines of "he's not behaving along the lines that town players in my homesite meta do, therefore, he's a wolf". You need to put yourself in your target's shoes and see if they're actually solving, regardless of how they go about it.

    The second lesson here is to think through somebody's reasons for claiming. Real or fake, putting yourself in the headspace of the claiming player is a worthy skill. Here, romanov claimed cop several hours into D1. Even if he was going for a quick mislynch, is this the kind of claim that a wolf can skate by indefinitely on given its timing? Yes, it was proven to be fake, but fakeclaiming doesn't necessarily mean a person is mafia. When caught in his lie, romanov gave reasons for why he did what he did. Do they hold up to examination? Don't automatically believe a claim - or disbelieve it, for that matter.


    #9: Angrypotato, Season 5, Game 5, Day 8

    Background: Game 5 of that season had quite a few twists and turns, but it all came down to a final three of SA_Ninth, the wolf, against BlackDragonSlayer and Angrypotato, the townies. It was a fairly standard (if low-activity) Final 3 scenario, in which BDS, the clearest player alive, bemoaned the situation he was in and wished the other two, especially Ninth, would post more as he tried to work back through the game and solve.

    Potato, very new to mafia at this point and playing in one of her first forum games ever, eventually resurfaced and got fed up, correctly voting Ninth. Specchat erupted in glee, but in Season 5, votes were not locked in LYLO situations, and people were thus free to change them. Which Potato did, four minutes later... to No Lynch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angrypotato (#5554)
    ##Vote No Lynch I can't do that. That is too reckless for me. I do not know how to invite so I can only no lynch. @BlackDragonSlayer could u provide reasons why u r better than sa ninth


    She didn't actually want No Lynch, but she wasn't sure how to unvote, and the main thing was that Potato left her vote on No Lynch for hours. So while BDS first lost an opportunity to end the game by hammering the wolf (granted, only for four minutes), Ninth now had an opportunity to end the game by hammering No Lynch, as he would have reached parity after the next nightkill. But Ninth didn't seem to realize this either, and thus the f3 dragged on with the completely unprecedented scenario of a wolf literally being able to win the game with a single vote and not realizing it. Specchat was losing its mind.

    Hours upon hours passed, Potato and Ninth eventually crossvoted, leaving BDS with the hammer. After some time trying to psych himself up, he finally hammered... Angrypotato, who he was previously townreading and who had previously voted No Lynch in a LYLO situation. I don't think I've ever seen specchat in quite a state of shock after his vote; not before, not since.

    Why it was a bad lynch: Final Threes are their own special and unique form of torture in a mafia game. If you're lucky, you only have one horrible f3 story. If you're extremely lucky, you don't have any. They do things to your head and in general I like to treat players of both alignments who make it that far with sympathy. This will be the only f3 vote you see on this list.

    That said, this f3 situation broke the mold simply because of the missed opportunities. BDS had a chance to win immediately! Ninth had a chance to win immediately! And neither of them took it. But once that part had resolved itself, it was a classic case of BDS talking himself out of the correct lynch. Early on in the f3, he was right on target, and even some analysis of voting didn't do much to change his initial conclusion:

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragonSlayer (#5530)
    Honestly Ninth, you better show up. I'm already inclined to vote for you, but even if I were to vote for AP, we'd be in a situation where it's always going to be a KitB, so yeah.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragonSlayer (#5536)
    AAAggggggggggggHHHHHHhh Ninth where are youuuuu. Just doing a quick skim over vote history and stuff AP seems like a derpy human. I'm honestly also thinking that language differences could've lead to some of the more ??? stuff AP has done, and I honestly doubt a wolf would've gone for a "No Lynch" vote at several points in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragonSlayer (#5546)
    Day 1: We know that either of the chrja lynch or SK wagon were pure. Indeterminate.
    Day 2: Taken by itself, AP's vote on me seems suspicious because of Jarizok being on the wagon. However, in context, it seems a little more ok because Pendulum and Empoof were also on that wagon at one point. Ninth's vote is neutral very very slightly leaning wolf.
    Day 3: Indeterminate; AP and Ninth had the same vote. However, Ninth might have been more likely to have been a wolf who thought it was safe to put a vote on, rather than AP.
    Day 4: AP was on a human lynch but so were a bunch of other humans, so that's rather indeterminate. However, Ninth's vote might be seen as fishing for a future lynch, the same with his Day 6 vote.

    Everything else after that doesn't say much.


    But he talked himself out of it. BDS didn't say why, at least nothing that is outlined in his progressions that day. Ninth and AP both defended themselves, attacked the other a bit, but nothing in those posts were earth-shattering. BDS was right, he was right for the right reasons, then he changed his mind, and none of us know why. Two years later and it's still a mystery, and this unexplained switch is a big part of why this lynch cracked the list.

    Lessons learned: Two of them. First, if you have the hammer in an f3 situation, thinking out loud can be helpful. Sure, there's the opportunity for the wolf to twist what you say, but there's also the opportunity for the villager to explain themselves. Either way, it helps far more than it hurts on average.

    Secondly, BDS was already on the right track with a particular line of thinking. I explained this somewhat in my previous article, but he was correctly categorizing AP and Ninth by their archetype and using this to help guide his thinking. I believe that archetyping is a very strong tool in any townie's arsenal. If you can properly archetype other players, it allows you to get in their headspace a lot easier and see if their actions make sense from a town perspective.

    AP's archetype was easy: the fish-out-of-water newbie. This was one of her first (if not her outright first) games of forum mafia ever, and it showed. She voted No Lynch on multiple occasions, including in a final three. She had openly said as much too, so it's not like she was hiding it in an attempt to look more experienced. Additionally, you have access to player bios in every Champs game to further your process of archetyping people. Considering the player type AP projected as, did her actions make more sense as a townie not really sure what she was doing, or as a wolf who somehow hadn't been coached by any of her buddies while they were still alive? Contrast this to Ninth, who had played a far more classically wolfy game, but was also vastly more experienced.

    BDS knew this, and was halfway home to applying it, but at some point down the line he got derailed. If your player archetyping is telling you something, listen to it!


    #8: rainbowsaurus, Season 6, Game 11, Day 2

    Background: After a fairly standard D1, the POE was set and the town was looking to approach Day 2 as normal. They'd work through their suspicions, talk to and about people, and come to a decision at the end of the day. One of the main names up for discussion was rainbowsaurus, who had been in contention for the D1 lynch. Fairly standard stuff. But then, a little over an hour into the dayphase, Telleo came in and dropped a bomb: as the N1 Watcher, they had guessed right and personally saw JDS make the N1 kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telleo (#873)
    ##Vote JDS

    Confirmed scum. I watched him kill Hater last night.


    The initial reaction in the thread was "cool, but let's talk this through," which was fine. JDS counterclaimed Voyeur and postulated that mafia used a ninja action to kill the N1, but the town in general deemed the claim to be plausible but unlikely. JDS was marked as a wolf and was set to go down. But then, things turned south.

    Telleo, of all people, first suggested that despite the outstanding Watcher issue, the town lynch rainbowsaurus instead, in order to get a better idea of associatives and possible teams. A couple of other players agreed with this logic, momentum built, and all of a sudden the all-but-outed wolf had a chance.

    In the final hours of the day, JDS posted well enough, and enough people had problems with rainbowsaurus's posting that they became competitive wagons, but when the dust cleared rainbow went down and JDS, the guy who Telleo had watched visit the N1 kill, survived.

    Why it was a bad lynch: On some plane of reality, I can see where the town's logic in leaving JDS alive made sense. He was a known quantity, they thought they could control him, and they thought they had a good beat on another player in the game and figured they could get two for the price of one.

    In practice, though, this strategy is fraught with peril and can backfire in so many different ways. There's always the danger of mislynching, which is what happened here. Possibly even worse is that you leave a wolf role alive at night. In a role madness game like the Season 6 setup was, night actions are an important aspect of the game and you want to be able to corner the wolves and/or clear people through them, if possible. Leaving an all-but-outed wolf alive allows him to use his ability at night, especially since there's no guarantee that a roleblocker is present or even on the town's side. The same goes for a town vig.

    Indeed, here JDS carried the factional kill on N2, and it went through. Michelle, the town roleblocker, blocked ~Rosen, another wolf. Had JDS been lynched, there was a possibility that ~Rosen would have had to carry the kill himself. A town player would have been saved, ~Rosen would have been in big trouble, and the town would have been in that much better of a position if they had just taken out the wolf handed to them on a silver platter.

    This is the downside of infolynching, especially in a setup like this. The goal is to reduce the wolves' numbers, so they can do less stuff at night, and they have that much less voting power in the thread.

    Lessons learned: Mostly covered in the last section, but for emphasis: Infolynching is bad, just kill the wolfiest player. In 99% of scenarios, if there's an outed (or mostly outed) wolf, you lynch them. The other 1% covers weird variants like there being two wolves left and you need to lynch a specific role in order to stave off an immediate loss, and this scenario didn't cover that.


    #7: Linkcat, Season 3, Game 5, Day 6

    Background: The town in this game had started off as strongly as possible, chainlynching three wolves on the first three gamedays. One, however, eluded them, and after two straight dayphases of mislynches the situation was starting to look a little bit less rosy. The game was still in the town's favor, but now they actually needed to start working and fashioning an ironclad POE to see out the win. To their credit, they recognized this.

    These were the main topics of discussion heading during into D6:
    • The town had one power role left, a so-far unclaimed Bodyguard.
    • Beck was preparing a large case on his top suspect, MyImmortal.
    • Panther wasn't letting Beck off the hook and tried his very hardest to keep him in the POE, possibly even get him lynched. They even thunderdomed for a while.
    • Discussion eventually shifted to Linkcat, and consensus was that his formerly clearing behavior (wolf spew) wasn't as good as it looked initially.

    All of this is fine and falls within the normal course of proceedings during this part of a game. But then, with three hours to go before EOD, Linkcat - who had mostly been AFK to that point - arrived to defend himself. It didn't go well. The following posts are quoted in order of occurrence, with nothing in between that I've left out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkcat View Post
    The space thing was in reference to me asking spooky why he capitalized my c, which was a weird thing to ask, so I thought Stork did that on purpose just to mess with me. After this they kept thinking up new ways to misspell my name in wolf chat.
    What?
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkcat View Post
    It's called a joke.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    lol

    ##Vote Linkcat

    Is that an honest slip? Because it seems intentionally outing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghowilo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkcat View Post
    It's called a joke.
    I don't buy that at all. I think it was a slip. Not to mention, I really, really, really want this to be right. I'm going to be sad either way, but I just want the confirmation that I was, in fact, right about you all along.

    ##Vote Linkcat
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafia Host View Post
    Season 3, Game 5: Mean Girls [Mafia Championship] Day 6 Final Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    4 Linkcat Panther (98), MyImmortal (63), Beck (86), Ghowilo (15)
    1 Beck Linkcat (6)
    2 Not voting Azure (6), Sorian (40)


    View Vote History

    Linkcat was lynched. They were: Town Bodyguard.

    Day 6 has ended.

    Day 6 ended at 8:16 PM EDT on Tuesday, May 31st, 2016.


    This one was a crusher, and the surviving townies immediately realized as much upon start of the following day, but how much of a crusher it was wouldn't be known until the game ended. Sorian, the final wolf, went super deep and pulled off the reverse sweep by triumphing in the f3, on a day when the town really could have used one last cleared player.

    Why it was a bad lynch: You know how a lot of times people are skittish about leaving the votecount too close to majority too far away from the scheduled EOD? Situations like this are exactly why. Linkcat's inclusion in the POE, while incorrect, was a product of standard solving and was without issue. Even punishing the "slip" itself, while certainly an overreaction, isn't the reason this lynch is included on this list. The problem was that he was a PR, and the quick hammer after the "slip" denied him the chance to take himself out of it by claiming Bodyguard.

    This was a POE game, where every cleared player mattered. Had Linkcat been able to claim, the town would have lynched down the line as normal, but they would have had one extra body the wolves had to get rid of. This would have mattered when it came to the f3, when Sorian would have had a much more difficult time explaining why he was still alive when he probably should have been nightkilled ages ago.

    From start to finish, the final push on Linkcat was an eight-minute period of momentum and madness from a town desperate to wrap things up, but in the end it could very well have cost them the entire game.

    Lessons learned: On a base level, be careful of accidentally hammering if you don't explicitly want to. Beck and Ghowilo, the two townies guilty of this, obviously immediately regretted their actions, but still.

    On a deeper level though, the final push on Linkcat came out of a place of emotion and momentum, and while that's an awfully hard impulse to suppress in a mafia game, especially as town, sometimes it's a necessary one. Linkcat was in the POE and dropping, but there was still one unclaimed power role running around and the hammer denied him the opportunity to use his get out of jail free card. In quickly-developing situations, sometimes it's worth it to stop and think about what you're doing. In a best-case scenario, it can put the entire game back on the rails.

    ---

    We take our first tier jump from 7 to 6. The first four entries were all extremely unfortunate but ultimately forgivable for one reason or the other. Starting with the next entry, though, we move into the realm of the truly inexplicable.

    ---


    #6: rob77dp, Season 4, Game 5, Day 6

    Background: The game was down to Final 5, with one wolf remaining, coming after a day in which the town pretty much was forced to mislynch because their target had insisted on a v/v thunderdome. Given what had happened the previous day, you'd think that the play here would be to be thorough and open to any possibility, carefully examining everyone left in the game and really talking things through with the other players. rob77dp was certainly of this mind, talking through his headspace and asking questions of the people he more strongly townread.

    Not everyone had that idea, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by DS (#4824)
    Anyone else think it's Rob?
    Quote Originally Posted by DS (#4830)
    Vote count analysis suggests that its Rob.

    ##Vote rob77dp
    Quote Originally Posted by DS (#4834)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimi (#4831)
    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Sanders (#4824)
    Anyone else think it's Rob?
    I do. Why else would both scum-slayers stay alive other than setting up a lynch for the final day after he bugged Trash out of nowhere with his weird YOLO post.
    Yeah, and he kept you alive because hes been tunneling you to set up a mislynch. Killed off Apple because she was effectively cleared by Dels push on her d2/d3
    Quote Originally Posted by DS (#4842)
    I'd bet my $#@!in $#@! that scum is rob
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimi (#4850)
    Thats it. I'm sorry town if he is towny but now it is just getting absolutely dumb.
    ##Vote rob77dp
    Quote Originally Posted by DS (#4857)
    hammer this scumbucket trash
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimi (#4858)
    Rob not telling me what to do but he telling me to ISO his 27 pages worth of posts to give 30 replies of quotes where I think his stuff is off wasting my entire 2 days time to even consider anyone else is scum because I am too busy finding stuff on rob to defend myself.

    Best joke of 2017 right here.
    Quote Originally Posted by DS (#4859)
    I $#@! with you Dimi, this bs of oh lets wait the entire two days to decide is some rookie ish. Sometimes you need to just put your foot down and squash the scum imo
    Quote Originally Posted by DS (#4861)
    Pull the trigger, lets get this W


    I followed this dayphase in realtime, and it was one of the most hilarious and shocking things I had ever seen in a mafia game. DS and Dimi, both villagers, were so thirsty for a redflip and so confident that Rob was exactly who they were looking for, they threw all caution to the wind and tried to end the game right there. It was almost admirable in a way, but it was incorrect. As Rob was begging for more time, his accusers were absolutely merciless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trash (#4869)
    @rob77dp
    Before I pull the trigger, shove a defense at me of why you can be scum instead of trying to push everything onto Dimi.

    And ping me pls because I don't really have time atm to actually go through everything that's already been posted.
    Quote Originally Posted by rob77dp (#4871)
    Quote Originally Posted by Trash (#4869)
    @rob77dp
    Before I pull the trigger, shove a defense at me of why you can be scum instead of trying to push everything onto Dimi.

    And ping me pls because I don't really have time atm to actually go through everything that's already been posted.
    I have THREE minutes until I have to leave for prior dinner and evening obligations/plans with my mother who flew into town last night. I have a strong scum-read on Dimi.

    Anybody who $#@!ing maj's on Day 6 57 minutes into the day is just ludicrous if they're town and possibly crazy if they're scum. I don't have the ability to defend in 3 minutes, but i can get some of my case out ther eon Dimi in case someone goes stupid and maj's here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimi (#4873)
    Quote Originally Posted by Trash (#4869)
    @rob77dp
    Before I pull the trigger, shove a defense at me of why you can be scum instead of trying to push everything onto Dimi.

    And ping me pls because I don't really have time atm to actually go through everything that's already been posted.
    Dude... he wont stop until he has every single one of my posts related to the game quoted and scum-read. I'm so damn scum to him he will probably cry me a river for being a bad player after he finds out I'm town (unless he is scum which I believe he is)
    Quote Originally Posted by DS (#4874)
    @Trash

    pull that trigger


    STEPH CURRY WITH THE SHOT BOIIIII
    Quote Originally Posted by rob77dp (#4875)
    And there it is - time's up for me for a bit as I have to leave and be away from thread (maybe a bathroom break at the restaurant can happen to try to phone-check the thread) for a handful of hours tonight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trash (#4876)
    Quote Originally Posted by rob77dp (#4871)
    Quote Originally Posted by Trash (#4869)
    @rob77dp
    Before I pull the trigger, shove a defense at me of why you can be scum instead of trying to push everything onto Dimi.

    And ping me pls because I don't really have time atm to actually go through everything that's already been posted.
    I have THREE minutes until I have to leave for prior dinner and evening obligations/plans with my mother who flew into town last night. I have a strong scum-read on Dimi.

    Anybody who $#@!ing maj's on Day 6 57 minutes into the day is just ludicrous if they're town and possibly crazy if they're scum. I don't have the ability to defend in 3 minutes, but i can get some of my case out ther eon Dimi in case someone goes 'tard and maj's here.
    I have evening plans too and won't be here for the rest of the day because of grad rehearsal and then actual graduation so!!!

    Hope you're scum dude.

    ##Vote rob77dp
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafia Host View Post
    Season 4, Game 5: So You Think You Can Be Super? Day 6 Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    3 rob77dp Darren Sanders (16), Dimi (12), Trash (4)
    2 Not voting Yeti (1), rob77dp (20)


    View Vote History

    rob77dp was lynched. They were: Vanilla Town.

    Day 6 has ended.

    Day 6 ended at 9:10 PM EDT on Monday, June 5th, 2017.


    From start to finish, this dayphase lasted 70 minutes out of a possible 2,880. That's 2.43% of the allotted time. No useful analysis was done in that time period. Town grew no closer to figuring out the last wolf. Nothing of value was produced. There was only a quick case, some egging on, a thunderdome, more egging, a hammer, and Modbot's trademarked immediate $%#!slap. That was it. It was incredible to watch, but oh man was it bad.

    Why it was a bad lynch: There have been other unfortunate quick hammers in Champs. D4 of the Season 6 finale comes to mind, where 112 was mislynched nine and a half hours in. There were a couple of other quick ones in Season 4 as well, including a second in the very same game (also initiated by DS). But this one takes the cake. At least in the others, everybody had time to check in and discuss it over before pulling the trigger. Here, though, Rob was begging for more time, Yeti had posted exactly once, and Trash - the last wolf - said she wouldn't be around for a while in her hammer vote.

    Bloodlust and momentum overcame all rational thought. The Linkcat lynch was a tragic mistake coming from a slip in concentration by two town players, but this one was a deliberately calculated act of self-sabotage. Everyone had their individual POEs and ideally that day was the day to work them through, but they threw caution to the wind in the name of getting it over with. Coming immediately after a day in which quite a lot of discussion was consumed by an oxygen-sucking thunderdome, the town really could have used this day to think things through. They did not do that, and they did not do that on purpose. The game was entirely mountainous and there was no mechanical information whatsoever pointing to Rob as the last wolf. His lynch was the ultimate gamble, but they played it with bad odds.

    Lessons learned: As tempting as early hammers can be, they backfire far more often than not. The only thing you really have to lose from waiting a little and talking it out is time. I'm not against early hammers by any means, but not 2.43% of the dayphase early. Hammering because the group has come to a consensus, the wolf is probably dead to rights, the day has started to drag, and you're eager to move on with the game is ok. Hammering because you're excited to potentially end the game Right Now is not.

    Would Rob living for another 23 or 47 hours changed anything? Probably not, because he was set on thunderdoming another villager, Dimi. But you never know. Trash, the last wolf, might have made some really wolfy posts. Perhaps Rob and Dimi would have found each other, as two v/v players going at each other sometimes do. The shockingly early hammer took that opportunity away from everybody, though.


    #5: Zarathustra, Season 5, Game 7, Day 1

    Background: Day 1 lynches in Champs are a crapshoot. Sometimes, they can hit a random low-posting townie, or somebody who, probably through culture clash, just doesn't fit in with the vibe of the rest of the thread. Sometimes, they can hit a player who made genuinely wolfy posts. Sometimes, they can even hit a wolf! Sometimes, though, they can hit an obvious villager for incredibly dubious reasons. This one had a fairly tame origin, but like a boulder rolling down a mountain, it just tragically continued to pick up momentum until the mislynch became an unstoppable juggernaut and it plowed straight into the village.

    It started off innocently enough. Quick and Zarathustra had a misunderstanding about how Quick thought Zara should be reading him given their prior experiences together:

    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#33)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#25)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#21)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#12)
    quick why should i give you a townread i barely played 2 games with you and that was 2 years ago lmao

    and I am pretty sure I broke the first game by confirming the entire town as town via roleblocking and some mechanic and outed the scum team in lylo that way. and you were sk


    and the second one i was mafia

    and then the team mafia game? I didnt read it til day 3
    Oh, that game was within the last year iirc. I thought I had played in more games that that with you. You have seen me as Mafia twice I believe, and as 3p once, but you dropped out of one game. All these games were played in the last year iirc. IDK I figured you would be able to read me fairly well because I am a fairly easy read. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    fwiw why do you assume I should townread you in the first place?
    Because I am Town. Because I am easy to read as Town. Because I think you are a good player who will be able to see the difference in my Town and Scum game.

    But now that I think about it, I think we probably do not have enough experience for you to get a super good read on me. I have just been told a lot that my Town game is rather obvious, so that is why I said that originally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#66)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#54)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#48)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#35)
    So what if I don't townread you? what would you make out of it?
    It would depend on why you read me the way you did at this point. Still, I think you will come to the correct conclusion.
    So it's just a pointless throwaway comment that you try to make me think I should townread you?
    Nope. I think if you are any good at this game at all, you will TR me.


    The misunderstandings and questioning piled up, and finally Quick dropped a vote on Zara in Post 163, less than one hour into a 72-hour dayphase. On its own, fine, it's a vote early on, the game has to start one way or another. But Quick never moved his vote for the rest of the day. And somehow, the wagon picked up momentum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1319)
    Quote Originally Posted by grit (#1305)
    But does a scum Zara lay into SirDante the way they did?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#729)
    You want to do this publicly ? Ok.
    Oh you're removed alright. Do not post in this thread again. In fact do not post in a sign up thread with my name on it again. I do not want to see your username on any of my game threads. I have had some bad Mafia players in my time. And you know what, that's fine. When people first play they don't have to be good. They don't have to even be remotely in the area of okay. All they have to do is want to try. That's all I've ever asked of a player. To want to TRY. But you. Holy $#@!. YOU. Do you know how incredibly insulting it is to setup a game for a group of people, people who ASK TO PLAY IN YOUR GAME, and then they just $%#! nonstop about how they want to be replaced out because the game isn't going their way? "Yeah well I don't want to play if other people are going to like accuse me of stuff because that's just like mean and junk." $#@! off. How has it not come across your mind that the opposing faction is trying to paint you badly. KICK BACK. SHOW SOME BACK BONE. DO SOMETHING. Don't just roll over and say ok well you said something to me so I can't respond now. Did they break your beautiful feel good bubble of safe space? Is that what is wrong here? You just need a safe space on the internet where no one asks questions at you? Because here's what I see. I see a child who cannot handle being asked to think. CANNOT HANDLE BEING ARSED TO TRY TO THINK. That's what frustrates me the most here. It is the incredible amount of work you've put into $%#!ing rather than even trying. You know what, I don't ever do this. I don't ever make a player's short comings public or explode on someone. I am a patient man. But you're painting Rot and me like we just said ok $#@! you, and never answered your PM. You want to do this. We can do this.
    Idk what Zara was doing there at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1351)
    ##Vote Zarathustra

    Consider yourself still on notice, Monkey. Get some better content or double the gifs.
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#1379)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1367)
    @SirDantetheFancy

    We’re friends now, right? I’ve been defending you and stuff. Do me a favor and vote for Zara.

    Think of this as a party invitation. It’ll be fun.
    Well. I suppose a Zara lynch also gets a lot of information. Considering the interactions.
    Alright.

    ##Vote Zarathustra


    So, before EOD really kicked in, we had three votes on Zara: One of them (from Jack) was a wolf doing wolf things. Another (Dante) was the dreaded infolynch. And then there was Quick, who just got tunneled super hard and spiralled into reading every single solitary thing Zara did as having sinister motivations. Here's an excerpt of some of his D1 posts towards and about Zara:

    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#362)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#344)
    ##Vote grit

    lets focus on a wolf for once
    I think you are voting for this person because they are not a hyper poster. Otherwise, why are they Scum? This is me telling you to stop naked voting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#461)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#442)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#435)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#404)
    Because I think you are mad that I don't take you as serious as you want to be. You are rather uptight. You also seem to be in a tunnel and I am not sure what to tell you except that no one but you is picking up on what you see, which should tell you that it might simply not be there.
    I am not angry. I don't know why you keep saying that I am. You are either wrong or Scum and I am guessing you are Scum because you STILL have not actually said why you think I am angry for anything that actually relates to this game. I already said more or less that you painted an accurate picture of me wanting to be a good Mafia player and that I am sensitive to that, BUT I have been through a LOT of therapy over the course of the year and learned a lot about myself. The fact you continue to say that I am angry is Scummy because there isn't actually evidence of that ITT.
    I can tell you sure

    I am pretty sure you are angry because you can feel I don't take you as serious about your ambition or the level you perceive yourself to be.

    So far all I have seen is massive derailing from you and screaming which just helps scum. I am trying to make you stop here hence I am telling you to take a break and I made sure to read back on past games to see you as town and your stances on such behaviour.

    So my conclusion is:

    either you were a hypocrite back then and called me out for being angry as scum when you do it yourself here right now

    or you are town because you look down on people who do it as scum

    I assumed the second hence I am clearing you right now.

    Outside of that I think you lack a layer of self awareness, if you truly believe you aren't angry right now.
    LOL, guess what?

    I am never moving my vote this day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#498)
    Quote Originally Posted by Paratroopa (#482)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#481)
    I have caught Scum early in a game before and I don't plan on letting this one slip.
    We aren't lynching Zara today
    It's not up to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#1009)
    So guess what? Zara is full of $#@!! Zara doesn't actually say I am angry until AFTER I make my case on him. And it's stated as a blanket accusation. I ask them why they think I am angry and they immediately literally change the tone that they are coming across as from accusatory to explaining.

    Also, you notice that there are a number of things that I don't think Zara even responds to, like what Zara was mad about at the beginning of the game.

    So the progression is basically this:
    1. Quick: Zara, you should be TRing me this game
    2. Zara: I'm pissed
    3. Zara: why should I TR you?
    4. Quick: because you have meta on me
    5. Zara: My meta on you isn't recent
    6. Quick: Yes, it is
    7. Zara: ...
    8. Quick: Why do you think it would be so easy to win in a Champs game?
    9. Zara: Because Scum win in Champs games
    10. Quick: Yeah, but Scum doesn't win EVERY Champs game, right?
    11. Zara: ...
    12. Quick: Why were you pissed at the beginning of the game?
    13. Zara: ...
    14. Quick: Hey, I think you have more meta on me than you do on Para and you are TRing them. I think you should be able to TR me too because you actually have more meta on me than Para
    15. Zara: ...
    16. Quick: Actually, I think I have enough for a vote at this point Vote: Zara
    17. Quick: Here's my case [insert case here]
    18. Zara: Your case is too long
    19. Quick: Your Scum!
    20. Quick: Hey, why are you naked voting people?
    21. Zara: Stop tunneling me!
    22. Quick: OK, if it's not a naked vote can you explain it please?
    23. Zara: Your case is too long and someone said you contradicted yourself
    24. Quick: ...
    25. Zara: Why are you throwing a temper tantrum?
    26. Quick: I'm not upset?
    27. Zara: Yes, you are.
    28. I'm not but I don't like you accusing me of being mad when I'm not
    29. Zara: Take a break from the game, you are clearly too upset to play rn
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#1094)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#433)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#424)
    Quote Originally Posted by hey_monkey (#402)
    Do you really think Zara is scum? Any reason besides the interaction with you? Legit question; I'm curious here.
    Yes, I actually think Zara is Scum here. I have had a lot of thoughts about them in this game and nothing about their play doesn't seem like it isn't manipulative. At the beginning I felt Prada was stalling progress on Scum hunting talking about all manner of irrelevant things and posting a lot. I haven't actually seen much Scum hunting from them. They are making low effort posts IMO. They are not asking very many questions. They are naked voting and seem content to continue to do so. Their first vote was based on nothing and that person hasn't posted again IIRC, so I am not really sure why they are voting for someone else at this time. They are constantly asking me if I am angry/telling me to take a break and I think they are doing that because they are actually trying to make me angry. I didn't spend a year and a half of Group therapy for nothing and this tells me it is working because I am not actually angry. Prada is representing that I am angry when there is pretty much zero evidence to suggest that I am. What's more is that I have told them exactly how I am feeling multiple times and they do not listen. I find Prada's general demeanor this game is not based on finding Scum and lynching them, but rather that they are trying to push and agenda (which all Scum have to do).
    How about this

    you can use the ignore function to ignore me, if I hurt you here in a way. I will also ignore you don't worry. But I am assuming you are town
    I read my case on Zara here and I have to say, it's pretty solid. The fact that Zara 100% dismisses it is telling all in itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#1293)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDantetheFancy (#1289)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1287)
    Can someone tell me why they townread Zara?

    He appears to be trying to brute force the idea that he’s town.

    1) Quick scumreads Zara so Zara goes “you mad you mad” until he actually pisses off Quick, then mutes Quick to have an excuse not to respond to him.

    2) Jack says Quick comes out better in the exchange and casts some suspicion towards Zara. Now suddenly Zara needs to look into Jack. Says so several times. Says he’s worried. Eventually comes to the conclusion that Jack is “rubbing him off” (you wish) “the wrong way.” But why? Doesn’t say.

    Neither of these things appear to come from a townie mindset.

    Zara’s got a consensus townread but I’d put down money it’s based on volume. Prove me wrong.
    Mostly the argument with Quick seemed like two genuine players attempting to discover the other alignment. it would strike me as odd for scum to dive so quick into such an attention demanding play but it could be he just has balls of steel. However I am willing to stick to probably likely town at this point pending future posts.
    I'd like to know why you think Zara actually was trying to sort me when they said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#295)
    Let's assume quick is town
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#1403)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#1399)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#511)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#477)
    oh fate is my favorite franchise

    loved the visual novel
    I'm halfway through the HF route and I kinda hate Sakura. Bout halfway through Extra on PSP (emulated and savescumming). Caster was the correct choice. Just finished up Apocrypia and it was disappointing but at least Astolpho has lots of great gifs. Wanted to get Prestige Flower but have you seen how damn expensive it is? I'll probably start reading Strange Fake once I get done with the two Fate things I'm already working on. Made a Fate Zero mafia game and it was awesome. Made a Fate Stay mafia game and it was an absolute trainwreck.
    Finish hf btw. It's my favorite route personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#527)
    Suicidefarfetched's basically convinced me that we shouldn't lynch Zara by pure confidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#708)
    Post 14 is the only pre31 Zara post I see that could even be slightly scum indicative.

    #playersalad
    #makingupopinions
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#805)
    Ftr, Quick’s Zara vote and Zara’s Morvis vote are both weak, even for Day 1. I reserve the right to take that comment back in regards to Quick if he actually does something with that vote later in the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#833)
    Quote Originally Posted by hey_monkey (#830)
    About it being weak? I think it's a fine vote. I question the I WILL DIE ON THIS HILL approach but I think there's plenty to look at with Zara.

    The interactions between Zara and Quick are pretty interesting. I'm looking back through that now and I think Zara did find a weak spot on Quick. I'm just curious to ferret out the motivation for pushing on it so hard right away.
    Yeah. He explains it a few posts later.

    I actually think Quick comes out better than Zara so far.

    Quick: I think Zara is bad cause blah blah blah.
    Zara: I ain’t reading that $#@!.
    Quick: I think you are bad.
    Zara: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#835)
    Also

    Zara: Summarize what you just said.
    Quick: Your bad (sic)
    Zara: Oh you’re just mad.



    I like Zara. Nothing he’s said really pings me since I’ve arrived but this $#@! before with Quick is not great.
    Well I can go in detail with the Quick approach. I didn't want to read his case because a) it was really long and b) I don't think I really need to address it in the first place. Quick as I could see by his quoted posts believes he caught scum early. Fine. But the thing is, I don't want to engage in a massive fight over a tunnel all day because that takes up threadspace and will waste most of our time while scum can blend in while I am fighting quick. It would also mean that I am getting tilted eventually and I am not up for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#911)
    Based on your next couple post, I got a good feeling about you. Stuff I agree with. Stuff I mighta said but you beat me to it. Being right doesn’t make you town but it’s a nice place to start.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowlancerx (#856)
    @Jack I was specifically asking you to describe the difference between convincing others than someone is scum vs finding scum, as to me they go hand in hand; you can find scum all day long, but if you can’t convince anyone then you’re not really helping.

    ~~~~~
    Caught up

    Town:
    Zara
    Fuggles
    Quick (this is a game flow read more than a behavior read, I agree that Zara/quick are t/t, but I’m not as convinced as para)
    Para
    Jack (I confess that this is partially a playstyle read, and I probably shouldn’t consider some things he’s said AI, but screw it)

    Probs town
    Rhys
    Warren

    Hmmm:
    Monkey (I had a rather large scum read by about page 12 but it’s diminished some since then and now I’m feeling very mixed.)

    People I want poked with sticks:
    Singer
    Dark
    Dante
    Summit

    ##Vote Summitwei
    Hi. What have you done that you think should influence reads on you the most?

    ~~~~~
    Hey @Quick, call people by their names here pretty please for me?

    ~~~~~
    We should absolutely not be talking about claims at this point, we have 50+ hours left before eod.
    I’m not going to bother going into why finding scum is the first step to this process cause of course you need to find and lynch scum and this game is going to be crowded enough without me getting on my soapbox and discussing game theory. Rather, let’s go into the differences between the two things and why just convincing without hunting is often baddie indicative.

    I suspect Monkey to be bad but I don’t know for sure. I could skip the investigation and go all out with challenges and nitpicks but all that’s going to accomplish is to focus the game on me and Monkey. Best case scenario, we lynch Monkey. She flips scum. I get nightkilled. (Ignoring powers for now.) We learn $#@! all about the surviving players. Or I’m wrong. We lynch a townie, I look bad and we learn $#@! all about everyone else.

    Better to poke Monkey, point out my problems with Monkey. See how Monkey reacts to me, to anyone who agrees with me. See who follows. See who adds additional reasoning. See who defends. Maybe I figure out that Monkey isn’t bad. Maybe I find a better suspect. Maybe I become more sure Monkey is bad and get a lead on her teammates.

    In short, there’s no reason to break the speed limit before I know where I’m going.

    Contrast Monkey, whose foot is on the accelerator. She proclaims Quick inconsistent. Can she lynch Quick for being inconsistent? She proclaims Mov too quiet. Can she lynch him for being quiet? Why is she driving around like a maniac (speeding and swerving) when she doesn’t know where she should be going. She’s just wasting gas. But if Monkey is bad, she doesn’t care where we go. She’s aiming for a target that’s (roughly) three times bigger than if she’s town so her carelessness makes more sense.

    Oddly enough Monkey’s chosen to basically ignore what I’ve said about her. What do you think of that?
    I found this post inconsistent with one he made later aimed at Warren where Jack criticized him for putting for example me too high, but is fine with it here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#914)
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkmanticorex2 (#881)
    I never said you were raging, don’t put words in my mouth. I said you looked like you were starting to feel upset/tilted. Which is exactly what you copped to in your own post.

    And I don’t care what Zara was representing your emotional state as. My POV on the situation Is not Zara’s.
    The entire point of this conversation is “Was Zara being dishonest or maliciously dismissive when he said Quick was getting mad?”

    So if you’re not talking about that, what exactly are you doing?
    I am not quite sure how I was dishonest with what I said or rather what would come out of me being dishonest there. I cleared Quick as town. I gave the anger I perceived as reason.
    If it came before or after is another matter, but regardless he said once he only believes anger is a towntell and scum shouldn't abuse it. Wether he was angry before or after it, if I pushed buttons or not. I used that to clear him. Which shows more of a town motivation, if you think me and Quick can't be w/w together for the record. It has a scum motivation, if you assume it's preplanned and I use it to clear my partner. At least from my side I am not w/v in this interaction because I would be giving out unneccassary clears and even if you assume I was provoking it, I was still using it actively to get him cleared.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1061)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#1043)
    Someone tell me why Zara is Town. I want to know some actual reasons though.
    e

    Because I love him.
    You always seem kind of dismissive of going in why you think I was town. You said Paratroopa convinced you, my posts weren't really pinging you, but you never went into real detail.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1117)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra (#1100)



    I feel like scum wouldn't actually start from there and answer such pointless questions, well maybe some would.

    But apparently going by notes Music seems to be actually catching up which is something scum usually don't do.

    Meanwhile Morvis. He promises to do stuff and says he read, but as far as I know the first game related thought he showed so far was that he liked the summary music posted.

    I think it's perfectly possible that he can't catch up so far though. I still find music better than morvis though.

    @Morvis13

    To be honest instead of reading back you can do this which I think would be more productive overall.

    Iso (you can do it with the multi iso button at the top and then select the user you want to read)

    Hey_Monkey

    Rhyselin

    radiate

    darkmantichore

    I think they all rather fairly short overall except heymonkey who has 70 posts. But if you can share your thoughts on them (except for heymonkey its roughly 10-20 posts each iso), it would help a lot.
    It kinda bugs me in a “only the Sith deal in absolutes” kinda way when you throw out these rules about what makes a townie that don’t align with my experience.

    If you think catching up or answering icebreakers makes someone town, that makes you look naive. I don’t think you’re naive.

    If you think that pointing out low hanging fruit means I should townread every low poster, that makes you look silly. You don’t seem silly.

    So what should I do with that?
    These are the phrases I found manipulative. You call out my belief on reads and call them naive and silly. Which makes me think you want to call out my perceiption of things and make rethink these specific people. But why? In the end I came to these conclusions already. Why say they are simply naive and silly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1287)
    Can someone tell me why they townread Zara?

    He appears to be trying to brute force the idea that he’s town.

    1) Quick scumreads Zara so Zara goes “you mad you mad” until he actually pisses off Quick, then mutes Quick to have an excuse not to respond to him.

    2) Jack says Quick comes out better in the exchange and casts some suspicion towards Zara. Now suddenly Zara needs to look into Jack. Says so several times. Says he’s worried. Eventually comes to the conclusion that Jack is “rubbing him off” (you wish) “the wrong way.” But why? Doesn’t say.

    Neither of these things appear to come from a townie mindset.

    Zara’s got a consensus townread but I’d put down money it’s based on volume. Prove me wrong.
    Paratroopa went often more into detail why he townreads me. He said it's because his reads are similar to mine and he thinks my overall approach resembles more of a townplayer.

    That isn't only volume. That being said Jack. You said I didn't ping you earlier. You also said you are townreading me. What happened between here and back then that makes you question that read so much? You weren't even aware of possible reasons outside of volume.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1351)
    ##Vote Zarathustra

    Consider yourself still on notice, Monkey. Get some better content or double the gifs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackofhearts2005 (#1367)
    @SirDantetheFancy

    We’re friends now, right? I’ve been defending you and stuff. Do me a favor and vote for Zara.

    Think of this as a party invitation. It’ll be fun.

    So jack I gave you my take on things and what I found manipulative (I dismissed some of the posts where you simply expressed your love for me, but I found some of them pockety regardless. Nothing I really want to lose sleep over though)

    I think your iso has some good moments though and it's decent enough, but at points I feel like you are sidelining.

    Giving out silly hashtags, defending people here and there. Expressing reads you can't even understand yourself because you later question them.


    Too little too late, I'm afraid. It's nice that you can FINALLY actually make a post worth a damn, but I find it highly Suspect that this post just so happens to come as soon as you become the biggest wagon.

    Do you guys see now why I was saying Zara was posting too much fluff when they are capable of this? I have meta on Zara, so naturally, I know what Zara is capable of. The thing is, I do NOT think it is a coincidence that Zara makes this post only after they become the biggest bandwagon (BW). If this would have come earlier to address my case on them, then it would be a different story. And it's also highly ironic that Zara complains that my case on them was too long to read when Zara posts this.


    I could go on, but I'm genuinely worried about this post breaking the character limit, so let's just leave it there. Quick was dead set on Zara for reasons that basically snowballed, and through sheer persistence and force of will he got other people to jump on (though, in his defense, one of them was a wolf). EOD approached and Zara was viable. Sometimes, during a chaotic EOD, "currently viable" is all people need to pile on. After a late PR claim, everybody scrambled, and when the dust settled Zara went down.

    Why is was a bad lynch: There's multiple dimensions to this lynch, so let's unpack them. First of all, while the initial tunnel and Quick's refusal to get off it was a big factor in this lynch, it takes a, well, village to mislynch. People piled on. Zara was viable in the first place, for reasons that still elude me. Certainly, a couple of people were skeptical of this lynch from the start and tried to move elsewhere, but it wasn't enough. Zara never should have been viable in the first place.

    If this was just a random D1 shrug lynch, this would not have made the list, let alone the Top 5. But its genesis was an outright case for extremely petty reasons that just snowballed. Zara was by no means inactive or overwhelmed; the guy made 286 posts on D1, posted legitimate cases, and defended himself as best he could from that questionable onslaught. Yes, Zara only went over the top after the town's first choice claimed a PR and thus took himself off the table, but Zara never should have been in contention in the first place. The lynch should have defaulted onto a wolfy low-poster or something, not the target of a tunnel from someone fallen victim to Champs Hero Syndrome.

    People should have realized Quick's tunnel for what it was - a bad tunnel that shouldn't have taken up so much thread space on D1. They did retroactively, of course, and said as much, but not when it counted. Nobody who was on Zara at EOD1 escapes blame - nobody except for Jackofhearts2005, who was a wolf and who was only too happy to help see this atrocity of a lynch through.

    Lessons learned: Look, I'm not going to say "don't tunnel". All of us do from time to time, and as much as we may try to take it out of our playbook, sometimes, momentum just carries us. I like to pretend this article and this entire subforum operates at a higher level of thought than "don't tunnel".

    Instead, let's take a different tactic: don't fall victim to bystander syndrome. I came down hard on Quick in the above sections, but the bottom line is that fault also lies on the others for allowing Zara to become viable in the first place. Mafia is not an individual game, it's a team game, and the town needs to work together as a team in order to check each others' worst impulses. This did not happen here. Much more critical analysis of the Zara tunnel should have been applied beyond the simple "oh maybe it will provide information" or "let's just resolve this now so it doesn't take up our D2 as well" logic that I saw in the thread. A lot of people, both before and during EOD, didn't really give this case the full extent of their attention and only really made side comments about it. Quick, ironically so insistent on getting explanations from others for their other reads, gave the people scumreading Zara a pass and took those posts at face value.

    Critical thinking is not something that can be applied selectively, not if you want to win a game as town.


    #4: tartina, Season 6, Game 4, Day 5

    Background: This lynch happened on Day 5, but let's flash back to Day 3 for a second. Town has two wolves down and is in a pretty good spot. A third, digitialdude, was visibly demoralized ever since a particular turning point that was the start of the downward swing for the wolves. tartina started the day shading digitaldude heavily, and then a bit later on dropped the bomb: She was the N2 cop, and got a guilty result on digitaldude.

    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#3077)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#3074)
    Massclaim today or not?

    We have two mafia dead, two alive, and in a normal setup with role flips this would be a good time for a mass claim.

    We have four unknown roles (setup, Carotte, Distorted, NQT) and with the vig and nightkill tonight that might go up to six (seven if Pizza swings the lynch onto an unclaimed player again).
    Claiming now gives us maximum information.
    It may make the mafia NK more predictable, and thus more counterable.
    It still allows for claims to be mechanically tested tonight by the rolecop and the JOAT, this is their last active night.

    massclaim: yes
    are you for or against it? please share your opinion.
    Massclaim: no


    I claim my role
    I found digitaldude mafia


    digitaldude's reaction was not inspiring and he basically outed and started lolcatting after a bit, not to mention self-voting. Case in point:

    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#3103)
    FUG BROS im alignment cop n3 dont kill me dudes, tartina is a mafia bomb. The real boss is behind her.


    This reaction, combined with his earlier demoralization, combined to make digitaldude seemingly a no-brainer lynch that day. Specchat was celebrating. Town was finally in a good position to win one! There was some minor tinfoil that tartina/digitaldude was a spat designed as a Hail Mary play in order to send tartina deep, but for the most part this lynch was set.

    tartina, for her part, continued her great play by pulling the rug out from under digitaldude completely, revealing that she had fake redchecked him, causing him to out, and providing her true check, an Innocent on Sothys:

    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#3442)
    Guys I was fake picking digitaldude
    I picked Sothys because he was super scummy and i isoed him and I see he has literally zero interactions with roro or definition. sadly Sothys Is town i hardclaim this
    I hoped someone provoked ddude more but nothing was happening


    To summarize, in the span of hours, tartina: a) all but cleared herself, b) outed a wolf using little more than guile, and c) provided a true peek. In 99% of games, the town would be congratulating tartina for her fantastic play and immediately getting to work on setting up a game-winning POE. And, to their credit, some people did. Not all of them, though. Here, the tinfoil immediately began. Maybe digitaldude was actually town, despite his defeated reactions. Worse, maybe tartina was actually a wolf, because, uh, idk, reasons!

    People questioned tartina's choice of fake peek. People questioned tartina's choice of real peek. One player in particular was determined to believe that the situation was more complicated than it appearead, largely on the basis of him wanting this to be correct. He ended up forcing a thunderdome between himself and tartina. He eventually self-voted. And digitaldude, the wolf outed from his behavior and reactions, lived for another day.

    The town wised up and finally lynched digitaldude on D4, but on D5 they couldn't find their last wolf. Meanwhile, this delay worked in the mafia's favor. They killed some voices of reason. The last true bastion of sanity left in the game, Apoc, was under increasing suspicion as to why he hadn't been killed yet. This opened a gap for the wolf and the incorrect townies to take the lead in terms of suspecting people. And they had never quite gotten over their tartina tinfoil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel (#5219)
    Quote Originally Posted by Faddy (#5205)
    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel (#5161)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#5149)
    AA and mendel

    Who is the last wolf?

    You both clear tartina. I will never vote faddy/sothys. We all seem to agree superkeith is a sicko if he's a wolf.


    Grave just died

    Soooo? Dendrek? Tartina?

    What do you guys want from me
    Tartina over Dendrek.
    You said that Tartina is never with digitaldude. When did that read die?
    My read of Tartina is that she’s scummy as hell apart from her claim.

    I don’t think it makes sense to fake peek Digi red and then retract it. It basically $#@!s up any credit she gets for bussing.

    So I think that clears her.

    But there are 4 people who are “clear” for one reason or other- you, Apoc, Tartina, and Sothys.

    I’m Town so that makes it Dendrek or Mendel or sKeith.

    I really don’t believe it’s any one of them. I absolutely am going to reevaluate all of them with ISOs, even sKeith, but I can’t do that from my phone.

    So out of the 4 of you who are clear:

    I’ve tried to make it you so many times but that just doesn’t make any sense.

    Apoc also just doesn’t make any sense.

    Tartina doesn’t make sense either but she makes slightly more sense than you and Apoc.
    Quote Originally Posted by sothys (#5330)
    ##Vote tartina
    (no explanation given)

    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#5468)
    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel (#5411)
    I want everyone to answer who they think it is if it’s not me or Mendel.

    Everybody. Including Mendel.
    its faddy or tartina if not you.
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#5489)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#5442)
    I need mendel to tell me who the wolves are if it's not me


    I need dendrek to fill me in on his opinions, since when are you gunning for Tartina? Is it cause you know mendel is a freebie? I'm not convinced you think she's a wolf, despite your case.
    another answer you won't like

    my towncore is sythis, dendrek, faddy

    anyone else is fair game/don't know
    but I'd go for tartina
    becasue she's the weirdest one, and because pizza had her howling wolf even before the FSP

    but I'm not final on that
    Quote Originally Posted by sothys (#5573)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#5571)
    Quote Originally Posted by sothys (#5569)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#5525)
    Sothys - cleared - Is way behind on the game. He's pushing reads that seem to be based on instincts, but with the appearance he's missing perhaps dozens of pages of what's happened this game. He never lives to F4. He's never scum.
    For the record - i have not missed a single post.
    I am struggeling with the format on the forum, i can even document way pregame that i said on my forum that it would be a problem for me.
    the way quotes work here kinda triggers my internal ignore filter on browsers, and sadly ive played alot of the game from my phone, so scrolling back and forth to see who actually said what will have messed me up alitle.

    Im not going from feelings, im going from the fact that tartina made two claims. Both right. in a what F12 og F15 ? the sheer % of her hitting DDude and then switching to me when she had way better peeks is baffeling.
    the fact that noone seems to take into consideration that town was basicly celebrating a locked game when she claimed DDude because she was the obvious deepwolf throwing a hail marry, and only after that did she counter claim on me, and everyone just seems to clear her on it.
    It is mechanically horrible to just leave her at that, and i wantet to resolve her before DDude because we where ahead enough to do it then. Tonight is our last chance to actually go ahead with it - if tartina survives today i will stop pushing her. But if she wins the game as wolf. Im expecting a bunch of votes, deal ? :P
    Deal. If i am a scum i Will do anything you want. If i Survive today, promise me you Will never vote me.
    $#@! that post is scummy. What will you do if you are town ? :P

    And no amendments i will stop pushing you - but i still might vote you.
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#5600)
    My take on tartina

    As you saw just now, I can push her and she always has an explanation that looks genuine. I'm just WIFOMing hard over her. Examples:

    * "who was vig2?"
    - scum!tartina throws shade at me, referencing the doubts about my claim
    - town!tartina explains that for her, the vig2 shot is towny (and didn't read my self-clear)

    * "don't peek me"
    - reasonable in a mountainous scenario
    - reverse psychology for scum!tartina

    * no idea about lynch strategy and that scum can't nolynch in this phase
    - no prior experience
    - scum!tartina "look, I'm igonrant because I don't have access to scumchat"

    * the ninja thing
    - town!tartina legitimately confused about this new mechanic
    - scum!tartina confused about town!tartina options

    * the FSP
    - town!tartina doing a well-known play with her level of confidence, backs off when maj threatens
    - scum!tartina doing a well-known play to distance herself from digital, backs off when play is identified

    * fluff-posting D4 D5 (policy lynch material at my home site)
    - town!tartina is lost in a game without town PRs and night actions
    - scum!tartina laying low

    I know I suck at reading tone, I haven't re-read her, but from what I recall, for me her tone can be either. I can't tell if she is really this "confused about this new place and game style", or if she is playing it (and she even says she CAN play it, but she isn't doing it, which is more WIFOM).

    There is nobody else whose tone and activity is that confusing to me. sKeith was close, but I am getting a better handle on him (yesterday helped!), I'm satisfied. AA's tone has always felt natural to me (yes, sothys, I have his ISO open, will get to it ASAP). Dendrek is town by tone, so are sothys and Faddy. They're all actively solving. This is why my PoE today is tartina and Apoc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel (#5655)
    I am literally getting in trouble at work because I’m paying attention to this, not that, so I’m going to have to bow out until lunchtime.

    ##Vote Tartina

    It’s not Dendrek, it’s still not Mendel, if it’s not Tartina then one of my conclusions is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#5657)
    Notes to self/readlist

    Apoc -- more constructive today, upping his game somewhat. Endgame lynch. todo: rethink scumteam actions (ror claim, scumslip), ISO (yeah right)

    Archangel -- shifted from neutral blank to scum lean, I can definitely see her playing as scum queen in this game, with a view to lynching Apoc in F3. Need to see if she's getting townier or scummier for me when re-reading past D3. Feels neutral. todo: 2nd half of ISO

    Dendrek -- towncore, mechanically almost certain. Feels town.

    Faddy -- towncore, track of roro was seeded during D1, seems unlikely long chance as a scum play. Feels town. to do: rethink scum!Faddy scenario

    mendel -- 100% town

    sKeith -- neutral, towncore by proxy (Apoc/Askpizza). Feels solvy in a way different from me. (todo: reread some of his stuff with new insights)

    sothys -- town, mechanically

    tartina -- WIFOM, I have two posts, todo: ISO

    PoE right now: Tartina and ArchAngel (any order) , then Apoc.

    ##Vote tartina


    It was a combination of tinfoil and simply thinking too hard, but at the end of the day tartina went down.

    Why it was a bad lynch: In brief, because tartina served up digitaldude for the slaughter and added a little flourish on afterwards by clearing a villager. A wolf might do the initial fake redcheck on a partner in weird world. A wolf never does a fake redcheck, rescinding it after their target started lolcatting, AND THEN greenchecking a villager for good measure. Ever. It just doesn't happen.

    When I was rereading D5 of this game for research for this article, what struck me most was how at SOD, tartina was lock clear. She wasn't mechanically clear like her peek, Sothys, but she was basically one tier down. There was UNANIMOUS sentiment about her always being town no matter what. I actually questioned myself on whether I was reading the correct day. But I kept reading. And I watched the players slowly immerse themselves in their isos, and try to clear people, and figure out a game-winning POE, and reevaluate old information and assumptions. And little by little, tartina became vulnerable.

    On one hand, the super-involved ISOing and POEing is generally the correct approach. Hell, it's what I've argued for at other points in this very article! But on the other hand, the proper execution of this approach is just as important as the approach itself. The town entirely forgot what was important here, talked themselves into circles, and lynched one of the clearest players in the game (not to mention one of the sanest remaining) at a critical moment.

    Lessons learned: So, let's talk about the POE approach. Ignoring it entirely and going based off gut - or trying for an early hammer - is not the right way. This game has demonstrated that going super heavy into it and reevaluating and questioning everything is prone to failure as well. I think the proper route, when in lategame, is to triage the thread and solve based off set assumptions that you strongly believe to be correct. These assumptions can be anything: Two players can't be w/w. Player X wasn't bussing Player Y here. You can certainly question other players on their assumptions and adjust yours as necessary, but at the end of the day you need to have some or otherwise you'll talk yourself in circles.

    This is a lot easier to do with flipped wolves. What should have been done was this: The players took a look at digitaldude. Who'd he have interactions with? How did he get in a bad situation in the first place? Who put him there? How did he react when tartina peeked him? Was this clearing for tartina, especially considering her flourish afterwards? (the answer here, btw, should have been 'yes'). If that's an ironclad assumption, you lock that in and move elsewhere. Circle back to tartina if you absolutely need to, but otherwise, put her in your top tier and move on. The town didn't really have that sort of focus here, and while it was a better overall approach than some others that I put on this list, ultimately, it was still flawed. This one hurt.

    As a postscript, seasoned Champs watchers will note that I made no mention of a certain post that started the mafia's downfall earlier in this game. That will be addressed in a further entry.


    #3: hey_monkey, Season 5 Finale, Day 4

    Disclaimer: This was the only lynch on this list that I was personally involved in (I was a wolf). As such, it's likely that I'm treating this entry with bias.

    Background: This was the final dayphase of a mafia sweep. There were dozens if not hundreds of little turning points over the course of the game, individual decisions made and wolf-pushed agendas that people accepted as true, that got the town to this point in the first place. It's impossible to recount them all and beyond the point of this article, but for our purposes, I'll highlight one. Despite it being 6:4 MYLO and there being a JOAT still active (and unclaimed at SOD4), the town decided to go for the lynch that day rather than No Lynch. In other words, it was do or die.

    The players all did heavy analysis over the course of the day, as befitting the status of the game being a Champs finale, and the conclusion that many of them came to was absolutely correct: I, GH, was extremely likely to be a wolf through wagon analysis and me being unable to be ruled out of the most-likely-to-be-correct mafia teams. There wasn't really much I could do to defend against this, as a) the accusations were correct and correct for the right reasons, and b) the most likely mislynch target was hey_monkey, someone who many in the game widely perceived to be my mafia partner. This was an assumption that I very much wanted to maintain. As a result, I had to tread lightly.

    I was probably the most fashionable lynch target that day, but Monkey had had lingering suspicion since the first or second dayphase and was being strongly tunneled by one of the clearest players in the game. It was a hard obstacle to overcome, and when two of my partners made a late push on Monkey to force the issue and stave off what was looking like my lynch, it seemed to have worked. The momentum was now against Monkey. I was still looking terrible, but might have been given enough respite to live. Most players had made up their minds to follow wherever the JOAT, Nego, voted, and Nego was now leaning Monkey.

    If the story ended here, this lynch wouldn't have made the list. But the story didn't end here.

    We needed two villagers to vote for Monkey before we could safely pile on and end the game. Two of us were already on Monkey. Nego voted for Monkey, as did another villager, Boquise. In wolfchat, we were primed, and SilverKeith and I tried to coordinate to vote for Monkey. We did so, albeit poorly, and thought that we had the game wrapped up. There was just one problem: Nego, suspecting this, unvoted Monkey before Keith and I could finish her off. We were now incredibly exposed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nego (#11278)
    Fudge it.

    I need to sleep.

    I'm so sorry if this is the wrong move.

    I hate this.

    ##Vote hey_monkey

    If it's Ara/Five/DS/Empoof-slash-GH I'm going to be so mad at myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#11283)
    ##Vote hey_monkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Five (#11284)
    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#11283)
    ##Vote hey_monkey
    !
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#11287)
    ##Vote hey_monkey
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverKeith (#11288)
    Quote Originally Posted by Nego (#11278)
    Fudge it.

    I need to sleep.

    I'm so sorry if this is the wrong move.

    I hate this.

    ##Vote hey_monkey

    If it's Ara/Five/DS/Empoof-slash-GH I'm going to be so mad at myself.
    Ok

    I hope this is right.

    You've done a good job today nego regardless of outcome.

    If it was Five/Ara don't feel bad everyone lost to that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#11289)
    Quote Originally Posted by Five (#11284)
    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#11283)
    ##Vote hey_monkey
    !
    FOLLOWING
    Quote Originally Posted by Nego (#11290)
    ##Unvote hey_monkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Five (#11291)
    UNVOTE PLZ
    Quote Originally Posted by hey_monkey (#11292)
    No hard feelings, Nego.
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverKeith (#11293)
    ##Vote hey_monkey


    Specchat, which had had excellent reads for once, was all over this sequence of events and immediately recognized it for what it was: a mafia quickhammer attempt that had been thwarted by Nego's timely unvote.





    Specchat knew we were caught. We knew we were caught. We knew that that single move reduced our win chances from something like 99% to something closer to 60%. But, well, the villagers were just out of it enough after a grueling game and so taken aback that there was just enough cover for us to slip by.

    The three post-Nego voters on Monkey - Boquise, myself, and SilverKeith - all instantly unvoted. Everybody got spooked. Everybody was trying to figure out what happened. Five, another clear villager, was terrified that the entire POE jumped on Monkey while the clear town stayed off. Monkey, naturally, as the target, came closest to the truth: she had just nearly gotten speed hammered by the wolves to seal the win.

    Quote Originally Posted by hey_monkey (#11326)
    They did not hesitate, they did not consider, they did not say good luck or anything else. They jumped on as quickly as possible. That's not following the JOAT. That's trying to hammer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Five (#11332)
    THAT FEELS LIKE SUCH A HAMMER
    Quote Originally Posted by Nego (#11337)
    ##Vote GeneralHankerchief
    Quote Originally Posted by Five (#11342)
    i know from my perspective

    that THE ENTIRE $#@!ING POE THAT WE ARE SAYING WITH MONKEY JUST VOTED LIKE THAT SO THINGS ARE LOOKING BLEAK TO ME
    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#11344)
    ##Vote GeneralHankerchief

    The vindication if you flip scum..
    Quote Originally Posted by hey_monkey (#11349)
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverKeith (#11333)
    I think wolves would have coordinated it to vote at the same time not $#@!ing lose like here.

    IMO there might be gh just going "yeah I'd vote my partner to seal the deal" but aside from that I know I'm town so I believe boq's vote.
    You did. You were just slow.


    But the hammer was SO badly coordinated, there was JUST enough cover laid by the fact that all of the late Monkey voters pledged to follow Nego wherever and that Boquise, a villager, was one of the three late voters, and Empoof and DS - my partners already on Monkey prior to all of this - were there the whole way hammering home the "Monkey is a wolf, this changes nothing, wolves had to do this no matter what" angle, that momentum started shifting back. Boquise unvoted me, then Nego. People started looking around for answers. Monkey came closest to the answer but didn't realize that Boq was a townie caught up in the storm and was thus at a loss to explain the exact circumstances of what happened.

    There was a time limit. Nego had to go to sleep basically immediately. The tide was too strong to fight against and there simply wasn't enough time to talk things out. And so, Monkey got voted a second time, and this time the hammer went through.

    Why it was a bad lynch: The Monkey lynch demonstrated the devastating power of momentum, both from that immediate point in time as well as the rest of the game's events, and how it can overwhelm a demoralized town. Boq was a villager who provided cover, yes, but there were three naked votes IMMEDIATELY on Monkey after Nego had put her in range of being hammered. The key word here is "naked". Monkey had it right in the post I quoted earlier. There was no hesitation, there was no considering, there were no well-wishes or doubts expressed. They were votes with an intent to kill.

    At the end of the day, the fact that Boq lent some credibility to the mafia's actions by inadvertently joining them shouldn't have mattered. Even though the hammer attempt outright outed two of the four wolves (the other two already being on Monkey), the town didn't need to get the entire team right at that juncture. They just needed one. That one clearly was not Monkey.

    If she gets cleared from the attempt, the wolves still might have won, but the game would have gotten a LOT harder. A wolf was almost certainly getting lynched next. I was next in line. Empoof was pretty closely tied to me. The Butterfly Effect comes into play, but the situation would have gone from "nearly impossible" for the town to "doable". All they had to do was realize what was going on right in front of them. And catastrophically, they didn't.

    Lessons learned: It's a bit pithy to say "when a bunch of people try and fail to speed hammer someone, don't lynch that same person 20 minutes later". That's certainly the effect of what happened, but there's a larger underlying cause that we need to discuss: don't get caught up in momentum.

    This is an incredibly hard lesson to put in practice, and unfortunately I don't have any particular tips on how to do this. If I did, this game would be so much easier. The pressure of a Champs finale is immense, and a week and a half into the game where absolutely nothing has gone right for the town never has you at your best thinking anyway. But you have to try. Sometimes when events are spiralling out of control, you have to shut out all distractions and try to think things through as best as you can.

    Specchat was very hard on the villagers involved in this lynch postgame, certainly harder than I'll be - even despite my ranking of the lynch here. It's impossible to experience the overall feel of a game if you're not personally playing it, and even rereading that section of the game for this article, I felt what I was feeling back then: that inescapable flow pushing against the town, the irresistable momentum that, while briefly stemmed by the unvote, led them to a single conclusion that meant immediate doom. Halting this momentum and forging your own path is extraordinarily difficult. It might be the hardest thing you ever do in a mafia game. But you have to try.

    The answer was right there for the town. But they couldn't get there.

    ---

    The second tier jump takes place between 3 and 2. The final two are lynches that, years later, still make me irrationally angry. My sincerest hope is that this tier of mislynch never gets any larger.

    ---


    #2: Sooh, Season 4, Game 11, Day 1

    Background: This is the third D1 lynch featured on this list. The first one was due to culture clash. The second one was due to a tunnel that spiralled out of control, with a liberal side helping of Champs Hero Syndrome. This one was for no reason at all.

    You might think that I'm joking or using exaggeration, but I only wish I was. Sooh's main pusher, Awaclus, was incredibly paranoid about potentially allowing the mafia team access to his thoughts, and he wasn't shy about explaining the "benefits" of his strategy:

    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#131)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh (#125)
    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#121)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh (#120)
    Are you otherwise caught up?
    Yeah.
    And?

    Thoughts?
    Yeah, I have thoughts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#134)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh (#132)
    Oy vey. What do I have to do to get them? Juggle? Recite a sonnet? Ask nicely?
    You'll have to scumslip so that I can point out your scumslip.
    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#139)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh (#137)
    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#134)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh (#132)
    Oy vey. What do I have to do to get them? Juggle? Recite a sonnet? Ask nicely?
    You'll have to scumslip so that I can point out your scumslip.
    Are you saying that unless someone scumslips you'll be quiet?
    I'm not necessarily going to be quiet per se, I just don't want mafia to know what I think of them until I have solid evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#147)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh (#141)
    If you're town, this strategy is a mislynch waiting to happen.
    I don't think you should be threatening people for playing super pro-town strategies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#167)
    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#161)
    Then goodies won't know what you think either, which is a liability. I read this more as an excuse to not have to do the ground work in the game. Not necessarily baddie, but anti-town imo.
    Town doesn't need to know what I think, town just needs to figure out who the mafia are and knowing what I think doesn't really help in that regard unless I've noticed a scumslip that others have missed. Mafia actually needs to know what town thinks so that they can counterplay us. I do do a lot of work when the time is right, but 90-93% of it will just be inside my head.


    So, to summarize: In a game all about the town needing to find each other in order to smoke out the wolves, one of the players was openly advocating that the town not do this. This was a mountainous game too, which meant that there was no possibility of waiting around for power roles to clear things up and do their work (which is a dumb strategy anyway). In this player's perfect world, everybody keeps their information super close to their chest, saying very little in the thread, and somehow translating that to success when it comes time to vote.

    Naturally, when he picked a target, he became infuriatingly obstinate about why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#543)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh (#542)
    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#515)
    In other news,

    ##Vote Sooh
    This is the part where I, according to your rulebook on how to play mafia, am supposed to defend myself from accusations, correct?

    So, where are the accusations?
    This is the part where you're supposed to defend yourself before I let you know what my accusations are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#579)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh (#578)
    Still waiting for your non-existing accusations.
    Yeah because you're not town so you don't know how to defend yourself otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#583)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh (#580)
    I can't really do anything to relieve your concerns.
    If you were town, you could explain why I should think that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#584)
    See, this is why this playstyle is so good. It was this easy to catch scum with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#589)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh (#585)
    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#583)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh (#580)
    I can't really do anything to relieve your concerns.
    If you were town, you could explain why I should think that.
    I should explain why you should think that I can't really do anything to relieve your concerns?

    Might have to begin with the fact that I don't know what concerns you have.
    No, you should explain why I should think that you're town.
    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#659)
    Quote Originally Posted by PokemonKidRyan (#658)
    Awaclus: Slight Wolf Lean. Yes, I'm saying that I think Awaclus v Sooh is SvS for one main reason. So many of Awaclus' posts haven't been either too useful, scumhunting wise or they're been in their debate with Sooh. During this, there just hasn't been much usefullness except "This is why this playstyle is so good". Like, which playstyle? I don't get what they're even trying to do.
    I mean, I just proved beyond any doubt that Sooh is scum. If that's not too useful scumhuntingwise, then I don't know what is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Awaclus (#704)
    Did I say I just went with the flow? No, because I don't explain my votes. You're purposefully trying to twist things against me to undermine my case against Sooh.


    Yes. His "case against Sooh", such as it was, that consisted of him demanding that she defend herself but not providing any actual accusations which she could defend herself against, followed by more proclamations about how if she was town, she would instinctively know his accusations and thus be able to defend herself against them.

    For a while, Awaclus actually led the game in votes on D1, one of the few times in which a lynch on a likely villager would be entirely justified. In most games, he would be lynched, the disease would be confined to this single day, and the players of G11 would pick up the pieces and start fresh on D2. In the absolute worst-case scenario, a party entirely separate from this discussion would be lynched and it would be punted for a day.

    But here, though, Awaclus's case picked up steam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger (#391)
    Quote Originally Posted by Slaan (#386)
    For that matter explain why you think that Sooh is dodgey in the first place
    Well in my regrettable post where I agreed that an outsider could think that one of the three ops could be a wolf and then went on to say that as an it outsider I know it's not me informed the suspicion that either sue or owly are a bit dodgy
    So sue is a bit dodgy
    Also don't let that icemaiden villager front fool you she could play the same exact charachter as wolf or man
    Quote Originally Posted by deoxygenated (#768)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alohomora (#765)
    When Sooh is wolf, neither Awa and Helios are.
    guess there's only one way to find out

    LET'S GO

    ##Vote Sooh
    Quote Originally Posted by -Rosen (#791)
    Can't say I'm against the Sooh lynch, personally, though I do think if they flip Town, then Awaclus needs a SERIOUS look for Day 2. I don't think any Town would lay into somebody that much with uncertainty of said person's alignment being put into consideration.

    I'll switch over to Sooh, that way we don't get crewed with a RL by EoD. I still think Awaclus is the better choice though, but that's just me.

    ##Vote Sooh
    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger (#759)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alohomora (#755)
    Quote Originally Posted by myc (#753)
    What do you think of that vote-switch from Sooh?
    Wolfish.
    Wolfs gonna wolf
    Quote Originally Posted by Panther (#802)
    That's a better wagon
    Quote Originally Posted by Panther (#811)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh (#784)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger (#779)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh (#776)
    I sort of hope you're town so you'll take my mislynch to heart.
    You know I'm town
    You know I don't know you're town. You know that I'm town.
    I read through sooh and nothing really stuck out as super townie, although I've never accused her of that before

    But this post is a good one, tonewise, for me

    I just don't have an alternative cfd to advocate for atm and don't love it enough to veto her in a anyone-but-sooh type way


    By EOD, Sooh became the runaway favorite for the lynch for reasons that amounted to little more than... well... no reason at all, initially, and then momentum. Awaclus never explained his rationale, at least not in a sane way. Enough people (correctly) townread Awaclus for his behavior and weren't intent enough on taking him out of the game. Sooh posted well, but not well enough. At some point down the line, helped along by the wolves, the original reason for voting Sooh in the first place was lost and inertia took over. Panther started a brief CFD attempt at EOD, but it was too little, too late. Sooh was lynched for literally no reason at all.

    Why it was a bad lynch: It should be stated that Sooh was quite villagery during that dayphase. She displayed extreme patience in dealing with Awaclus and others who made that atrocity of a push on her, tried to do her own solving despite the entirely unfair pressure, and generally did her best in an attempt to guide the town in the right direction. This was not some random shruglynch on a null poster. Sooh had value.

    But even beyond Sooh's contributions, this would still make the list - and this spot - if it had been on a 0 poster. This lynch was an affront to the entire game of Mafia and every villager who took part in it should be branded with a scarlet letter for the rest of their careers. It went against the entire concept of correct town play - sharing information and thoughts, trying to find each other, and talking things over to see if other people's statements rang true and to get down data points for later analysis - on a base, deep, core level. The kind of gameplay demonstrated by certain individuals on D1 was anti-Mafia - not the faction, the game - and honestly dangerous to the very future of the game if it had picked up steam and gained popularity. I cannot possibly condemn it enough.

    Imagine, if you will, a world where Awaclus's preferred playstyle is paramount: Everybody keeps their cards close to their chest at all times, waiting for someone else to scumslip. Nobody takes initiative. Nobody provides reasons. Nobody says much of anything at all, and what little is said is of remote value at best. Not only is it a hell of a lot easier for the wolves to successfully blend in in this environment compared to an open, free-flowing one, it's antithetical to fun gameplay. Mafia is, at its core, a very social game, and robbing people of that in an attempt at a misguided strategy takes it away from the point entirely.

    I'm singling out Awaclus here, moreso than any other player on this entire list, but Sooh was lynched with seven votes that day and five of them came from villagers. That is equally if not more atrocious than the initial "case" on Sooh. Some of them suspected Sooh for their own reasons, but some of them absolutely piggybacked off Awaclus. You cannot, under any circumstances, allow that sort of anti-reasoning to pass without extreme scrutiny. It is your absolute duty as a villager to call out that sort of thing for what it is. Do not give the wolves anywhere to hide. Do not let anybody get by without providing satisfying reasons. Do not let this happen.

    Lessons learned: Strategically withholding information in certain instances is forgivable. Let's say you're a power role and have a night result, for example. You don't want to kill off a day's discussion by dropping it immediately, so you try to reel your target in first. That's fine. So too, to a lesser extent, is you withholding a read or a lean on a player because you're waiting for them to do something in particular, or you just want a little bit more time for it to develop without alerting them. That's fine. But you have to explain it eventually. You have to give your reasons. It might not be important for you, but it's critical to everyone else in the game that you share your work. Otherwise, the other players have nothing to base their own decisions and conclusions off of.

    Mafia is a team game and a two-way street. The town works best through collaboration and critique. You give out content, the other players look through it, and determine a) if it's correct or not, and b) if it's coming from town or not. The other players do the same for you, and from there you build a web of connections, associative reads, and a POE. Remove that pillar of good play and towns have very little to stand on. It's a very basic lesson, but sometimes even the foundation needs to be reinforced. Even if your own foundation is solid, make sure that the other players' are as well.


    #1: Apoc, Season 6, Game 4, Day 6

    For nearly two years, I thought the Sooh lynch could never be topped. Then, this happened.

    Background: Apoc was lynched on Day 6, but the genesis of this tale dates back to Day 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#1610)
    I think abovementioned might be a great way to discredit apoc.

    Definition: you can out yourself as n1 watcher by asking apoc something along the lines of "you're claiming to have been roleblocked butnkbody visited you this night. Explain". Coukd be a way to mark you as towny.

    Just a suggestion but feels pretty goodif we can turn it into a lynch


    This is the infamous 1610. It was a rare, genuine, no-doubt-about-it scumslip that roro accidentally posted in the game thread instead of the provided mafia chat. Doubly devastating for the mafia team is that the slip not only outed roro, but it also outed one of his partners: Definition. A third, digitaldude, became visibly deflated upon the reveal of this slip and was quickly placed in the POE. Finally, it spewed Apoc clear.

    There was some initial tinfoil that this was all a dastardly trap by the wolves, but then they started flipping as expected. 1610 was what it appeared to be on the surface. Apoc wasn't mechanically clear, but he was as clear as he could possibly be otherwise. There was no talk in the post about bussing. There was no talk in the post about cred. There was no talk in the post about creating any sort of distance between two partners. The talk in the post was about getting Apoc lynched. You literally had a window into wolfchat and saw that they were strategizing to take Apoc out of the game.

    The slip was belatedly "discovered" (by Dendrek, who would later be the last wolf standing). roro got lynched that day. Definition was vigged that night. digitaldude eventually went down, far later than he should have. But the game dragged on and the town's POE wasn't quite good enough to the point where they could immediately pinpoint the last wolf. And when the game drags on, people can get a little squirrelly. People wondered why Apoc wasn't dead yet. The tinfoil came out in force, eventually culminating in the fall of tartina. She flipped town, though, and most of the remaining villagers were at a loss.

    Apoc wasn't, though. During that day, when most people were running around in circles with their POEs, Apoc first took Dendrek out of his town core, then put him in the POE, then put him at the bottom of the POE. And, at SOD6, he buried him with a thorough and accurate case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#5986)
    Please bear in mind. I tried doing this with mendel, you were all there.

    I called mendel a wolf yesterday...in truth, a more honest read was probably "i dont see mendel as townie"

    But I was sure it had to be him, and 'not townie' isnt a very cool or impressive looking read.

    I read his ISO, trying to PROVE IT...but the best I could do was summarize his ISO as mechanics and charts...sorry mendel. This was a $#@!ty move, but i was so sure!

    This is me owning up to being an idiot. In the hopes you DONT DOUBT ME today.

    I wanted mendel to be the wolf SO BAD. But he wasn't a wolf!


    Dendrek is. He's the last wolf every $#@!ing time. And im going to prove it using ONLY his posts.






    WHY DENDREK IS A WOLF - The Rest of his ISO

    I described how an endgame wolf plays. I did it so people like Tartina might avoid behaving in that way. She was hyper confident in ArchAngel, she ended up looking like a wolf afraid of upsetting others further down her PoE...but she was just a villager who thought she was right.
    She was posting with conviction.


    Dendrek fits the endgame wolf mould. This part of the ISO is three days with no friends to bus, no slips to find...just cold, hard, posting...


    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4227)
    I'm going to look to see if Phaze was focusing on anyone.

    Hi guys. I want to be asleep right now. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4283)
    My temp PoE is: digital > sKeith > Archangel > tartina > Apoc or Faddy > Gravebound > Mendel

    If digital flips green: tartina > sothys > sKeith > Archangel > Apoc or Faddy > Gravebound > Mendel

    While Apoc and Faddy are in my town core, that's assuming they aren't around to F5. If they are, that becomes slightly terrifying imo. Not only are they strong players who scum should be afraid of, but they're also semi-cleared based on their interactions with scum.

    To note: Gravebound is a good town read for me, enough to towncore. But he's not guaranteed town. However, considering the extreme threat practically everyone else besides Mendel pose, it's currently hard for me to up him into the PoE.
    This PoE is literally just all the easier lynches on one side and all the harder lynches on the other.

    The same as all game. The same as earlier days when his PoE was "Digi, Keith, Phaze, Sothys"

    Name 3 players more lynchable that the 3 on the right.
    We're talking about SoD3 here, before Sothys was peeked and Keith made this game his $%#!.

    These are a wolf's EASIEST PoEs.


    The shade on Grave/Apoc/Faddy is just icing. Dendrek likes to keep his options open.


    Dendrek WIDENS THE POE, just like i said a wolf should and would be doing. He does it all the $#@!ing time.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4307)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#4296)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4283)
    My temp PoE is: digital > sKeith > Archangel > tartina > Apoc or Faddy > Gravebound > Mendel

    If digital flips green: tartina > sothys > sKeith > Archangel > Apoc or Faddy > Gravebound > Mendel

    While Apoc and Faddy are in my town core, that's assuming they aren't around to F5. If they are, that becomes slightly terrifying imo. Not only are they strong players who scum should be afraid of, but they're also semi-cleared based on their interactions with scum.

    To note: Gravebound is a good town read for me, enough to towncore. But he's not guaranteed town. However, considering the extreme threat practically everyone else besides Mendel pose, it's currently hard for me to up him into the PoE.

    The main reason I have tartina so high up in the PoE is that she's cleared based on the belief she's pure and naive. In other words, it's based on the assumption she's a very level 1 player who can barely pull off a level 2 play. And she plays that role so convincingly that I don't feel like I'm insulting her by saying it. However, IF she's good at acting and IF she's good at strategy, then we've been duped. I'm afraid if the game state reaches a point that she becomes prominent in the PoE, it means somebody here is a good actor and is good at strategy. And in that case, she's no longer clear.

    I fear I might not be thinking this through critically enough right now. For example, if digital flips red (very likely imo) who else is scum with him? He has so few useful interactions with other players that this may be hard to deduce. I'll dig through his ISO later to see if I can detect anything. Likewise, digital green, tartina red means? I don't know yet.

    I want to straight clear Apoc and Faddy and be done with it. F5? Who cares, still town. But if this game actually even manages to get to F5, then it means something went terribly wrong.
    digitaldude is mafia.

    so, I don't understand your PoE:
    why sKeith? why arcAngel? why not tartina first?
    I wrote that before Gravebound's reveal.

    Also, I answered the tartina question. Tartina gets shot up in priority if digital flips green. Don't think that's happening now.

    As for sKeith: I have this constant fear that everything he's done this game (even improving on D3) is focused on survival. It starts with straight up survival-based posts D1. But then, as he discovers those are getting him a lot of unwanted attention, he begins posting constructively D2. And as this improves the reads on him, he becomes much more like any normal townie D3. This is, of course, a good progress to see. However, the fact his playstyle isn't consistent makes me wonder if he's being coached (well, was being coached, perhaps by roro before he died).

    As for Archangel: Her opening was much hotter and more aggressive than anything we've seen from digital. It's an example of how to correctly enter an already started game. But she does a few things that strike me as odd: 1) scum-read me, a fairly solid scum read from the looks of it. That's fine. But her reasoning felt low level. She disappeared (I won't fault her for that anymore because I can't know if she saw my question D3) when I asked her about it. And she became incredibly nice to me, and incredibly humble, following my counter of her opinions. That unusually humble tone didn't fit my impression of her as a (potentially) skillful player. If felt like a combination of buddying and trying not to get into the attention of one (or more) players who found her earlier attempts at gamesolving questionable.
    Keith is posting townier, but it might be a wolf ploy! No townread

    He will make this read again on AA in Day 5. This dude DOES NOT WANT TO CLEAR PEOPLE.

    Case in point, the red:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4348)
    A note: Obviously Gravebound and mendel aren't cleared either. However, compared to Apoc and Faddy, which have the potential to have played a level 3/4 game with roro during the slip debacle, that makes their cleared states questionable enough that (currently) I don't have as strong a reason to be suspicious of Gravebound or mendel.
    This post makes no sense, it's totally upside down. I questioned him at the time...

    He's basically saying all four of us are townie, but Apoc and Faddy might have faked their clears, so those clears give the SCUM POINTS?

    wtf. That's just now how that works. Faddy is MORE LIKELY town for having tracked Roro...not less.

    This guy is effectively clearing NOBODY after this post.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4353)
    Am I an idiot? sKeith blocked Faddy? I feel like I'm missing something here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4356)
    I want to lynch sKeith for that alone.
    Laaaaaame


    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4372)
    Ug, if this is town!Archangel's posting style, it's so WIFOMy.
    Squirming away from a townread afaict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4373)
    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel (#4371)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4369)
    I like you. But stop trying to pocket me. >.>
    Lol, I’m not trying to pocket you, I’m actually annoyed because I can’t argue with what you’re saying, it’s a reasonable assumption, and that pisses me off.
    Somehow, this feels more honest than your previous posts.
    seems like a small townread? it's ok we'll forget about it later

    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4429)
    @sKeith Justify blocking Faddy last night.
    More hassling Keith





    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4431)
    For now:


    Locked town:

    Dendrek
    sothys
    Gravebound
    mendel
    Apoc
    Faddy


    Town:

    Tartina (I'll wait on Apoc's response before deciding to move her up)


    Too much scum potential:

    sKeith
    Archangel


    Scum:

    Digital
    "scum potential"

    But not scum, not even scummy. You think i'm nitpicking...but THIS IS A REAL THING. This is admittedly not the best example, but it's part of a pattern.

    Just like Digital's Phaze ISO...look how he struggles to just come out and say "Phaze you are scum!"...

    For Phaze, his TMI holds him back.
    For Dendrek, he probably has just learned that if he doesn't lie, people read his posts as more townie.

    Ultimately, it's the same deal as Digital. He's a wolf.


    Look for an aggressively lolwrong push...one that's not safe and carefully worded. You won't find one.

    Learning by Example
    Read these scumreads from Day 2:

    https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...44#post3251644

    Possible scum:

    Skeith - It may be that it’s a playstyle I’m not familiar with, but he really is very combative without being helpful, and most of his responses are defensive or dismissive. There is very little legitimate scum hunting. I won’t give a tonal read because that doesn’t seem to apply to him. But combative and dismissive is not tone, it content. Granted, this isn’t guaranteed to be a scum style of play. But it’s not guaranteed to be town either. I cannot clear him based on his ISO. It looks bad. Even his claim (D1) and revealed target (D2) look defensive and intent on self-preservation. That’s fine as town, but that’s all he has - self-preservation. If he is town, he’s not helpful. If somehow the final scum aren’t found before final three and he’s among the last, town will probably lose the game to him. And scum never resolve this slot if he’s town.


    Sothys - Sothys feels townie. But that’s probably natural for him. It’s the subtler things that start looking bad for him: resolving roro as scum in his PoE but not declaring him scum in his reads list, won’t vote inactives and won’t band together to get a lynch but does exactly that anyways with Carotte, a wagon he doesn’t like but still sticks to. Contradiction is not always a scum tell. It’s very often something town do. So these facts are highly circumstantial. The roro-focus does not look good though.


    Phaze - This is not a playstyle that allows him to live a long time. As scum it’s risky. But that doesn’t mean he won’t do it. One thing that’s universally true about this playstyle is that if he isn’t confirmed town, he’s never getting NKd. So if he can successfully convince town he’s playing suicide, he might not get lynched either. This playstyle takes guts to pull off well if scum. However, Roro’s vote and unvote does not look like a scum-coordinated action on the surface. But if scum!Phaze told scum chat he was playing suicide, that absolutely could have been a coordinated vote. Like Skeith, he’s dangerous to town if he’s alive at the final 3.


    Okowoko - I feel bad for the original player. Whether scum or town, she was clearly overwhelmed. I feel like there are enough potential scum elsewhere that this might just be a townie. But it’s going to be really hard to clear this slot. We’ll see how the new player does. Gl Archangel. Bring it home if you’re town!
    LET'S EXAMINE

    Keith
    "combative without being helpful", "isn’t guaranteed to be a scum", "If he is town, he’s not helpful"

    This is not a scumread.


    Sothys
    "Sothys feels townie. But that’s probably natural for him."
    "does not look good"

    he doesn't call him 'scummy/wolfy'


    Phaze
    "he’s dangerous to town if he’s alive"

    He never says Phaze is a wolf, so technically he's not lieing.


    Oko
    "I feel like there are enough potential scum elsewhere that this might just be a townie. But it’s going to be really hard to clear this slot."

    Ok...so that's 4/4 scumreads...who aren't actually scumreads?


    Nothing in her leads me to believe that Dendrek does not know that these people are townies

    Scum:
    Digitaldude - His attitude and contributions could not be more wrong. This is especially after the slip/claims/reveals. This guy doesn’t want to be here. He looks like he was busing roro after the slip was caught. I’m fairly certain this is locked scum.
    Now look at the confidence in this read from the same post!

    Wowzers

    (I'll note this is just rephrasing of my Digital read from the day before)




    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4434)
    @Archangel

    You are a good player. Convince me someone is scum. Don't give up if you're town. Please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4435)
    God. I'm entertaining a world where I have to move mendel into the PoE. That's going to be hard. Mendel, please be town. Okay?
    There is talk of mendel being scum today...better move him down...

    Even though he only has three lynches

    His PoE is three people...why does Mendel need to move?


    I move him because I clear Tartina and Keith. I don't have enough people.

    Faddy is the same deal.

    WHY IS DENDREK PoEing @mendel!?

    Because he's a wolf and he likes having options. Keith is slowly becoming unlynchable, this isn't about Dendreks reads...this is about who he needs to lynch


    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4440)
    It's almost morning! I hate myself. Today's lynch is settled in my mind. I'm not voting on Gravebound today.

    I'll be back later. And then again much later than that.
    NEW DAY

    Just for context on where we're at in this ISO...



    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4450)
    @Apoc Stop towning sKeith. Or give an excellent reason I'm wrong.
    Trying to keep Keith in the PoE.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4464)
    Apoc, why not just lock everyone town and we auto win the game?

    Okay. I'm seriously going to bed now.
    He slips a bit here...he is frustrated that I am taking away his mislynches


    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4552)
    Quote Originally Posted by Faddy (#4540)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#4533)
    i really need to catch up on some sleep. see you guys tomorrow.



    Town:
    Apoc - That's me

    Faddy - Not a wolf. I explained why to Dendrek.

    Tartina - Not a wolf. I think she's genuine and her fake claim is never w/w...someone post a theory where it makes any sense?

    Sothys - Peeked Town.

    Dendrek - I think he is townie and blocked by wolves (why he was blocked is WIFOMy, just that he WAS blocked...is important). Further, if you ARE going to roleblock Wolf!Dendrek to clear him...why do you claim N3 Alignment Cop? lol.
    Add Gravebound to town. Lynch the rest.

    So my POE is now DD, AA, sKeith, Mendel. Those 4 lynches win the game.
    You and Apoc have sold me on mendel. I agree with this PoE.

    I'm going to look at Gravebound's ISO for a bit.
    Ok, let's examine. If you go back to Day 2, you'll find Mendel is Dendreks TOP TOWN.

    I dont think Apoc and Faddy have ever had mendel higher than maybe 4th? I certainly didn't.

    Dendrek putting mendel down here is too easy. It's really opportunistic.

    Day 2:
    digital > sKeith > Archangel > tartina > Apoc or Faddy > Gravebound > Mendel

    Mendel is HIGHER than Apoc and Faddy...but he is sheeping us here?
    Nothing about Apoc & Faddy changed, the slip/track are the same as ever.

    I'd argue nothing about mendel changes either.

    Dendrek should never sheep this PoE.

    But he doesn't fight for his townreads...because he doesn't care if they die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4628)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#4627)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4626)
    Explain your read on me.
    Basically I think that It Is possible (not likely) that you faked to find the scumslip. I kinda tinfoil on you
    And I cannot Remember posts of you that made me think "ok dendrek is Town"
    Have you seen how much effort Apoc has been putting in to today? He's relaxed compared to previous days, but he's still hunting. Do you know why that is?

    If your PoE is wrong, and you're in the final 4, town loses. How can you be so confident your PoE is right? You seem to be basing your PoE on gut feels (and semi-evidence). Even Apoc isn't that confident in his PoE I think. And he's actually legitimately scum hunting, because he realizes that if he is wrong, town loses.
    This is all kinds of gross. He is gaslighting Tartina here, because her PoE WINS THE GAME.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4639)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#4631)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4629)
    It also seems your understanding of the current game state is at least a day behind. Have you read up on what's happened today? Do you even know what the role reveals were yesterday? Who's currently cleared?
    Yes I did
    Roro peeked sothys, so sothys Is 100% Town for everybody. Gravebound says that ddude faked his role. I believe grave so It Is logical to me that we Lynch One of grave or ddude. I won't vote grave.
    After we understand the Wolf between grave and ddude we can find the last wolf
    I did read Only the importante things, not the entire thread.

    It looks like you are supposing that I am a wolf and the other Wolf told me what happened.
    I fear you're coasting. I fear if we get to final 4, with you almost certainly in it, you won't have Apoc to guide you, and the other three players there are null reads to you (or you have one in your PoE, but you don't actually have a good reason for that). I fear you will chose based on gut feel or OMGUS.

    I fear the currently accepted PoE might be wrong. Yours is fairly consistent with most people's. Except you are probably the only player alive who includes me in it. It's not necessarily a scum tell from you. But what it is is a sign that you aren't using game-winning logic here.

    And I fear you might actually be scum and that you've played Apoc like a fiddle.

    And you aren't doing anything right now to relieve any of my fears.

    I like the current game state, but it's far from guaranteed town wins. I don't think anyone who actually is town should be feeling as confident as you are.
    More gaslighting.

    God I hate this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4640)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4639)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#4631)
    Yes I did
    Roro peeked sothys, so sothys Is 100% Town for everybody. Gravebound says that ddude faked his role. I believe grave so It Is logical to me that we Lynch One of grave or ddude. I won't vote grave.
    After we understand the Wolf between grave and ddude we can find the last wolf
    I did read Only the importante things, not the entire thread.

    It looks like you are supposing that I am a wolf and the other Wolf told me what happened.
    I fear you're coasting. I fear if we get to final 4, with you almost certainly in it, you won't have Apoc to guide you, and the other three players there are null reads to you (or you have one in your PoE, but you don't actually have a good reason for that). I fear you will chose based on gut feel or OMGUS.

    I fear the currently accepted PoE might be wrong. Yours is fairly consistent with most people's. Except you are probably the only player alive who includes me in it. It's not necessarily a scum tell from you. But what it is is a sign that you aren't using game-winning logic here.

    And I fear you might actually be scum and that you've played Apoc like a fiddle.

    And you aren't doing anything right now to relieve any of my fears.

    I like the current game state, but it's far from guaranteed town wins. I don't think anyone who actually is town should be feeling as confident as you are.
    Actually, I think digital also includes me in his PoE. lol


    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4682)
    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#4674)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#4648)
    dendrek is clear because he was blocked D2 by digitaldude, scum would not have wasted this block on him
    it was not foreseeable that we'd have proof of that block

    we're always lynch ddude, you can vote or not
    It is possible Dendrek could have holstered and the mafia roleblocked elsewhere undetected. I'm not wasting time today thinking about dendrek.
    I'll be very suspicious of him tomorrow!
    This is bad logic. Why would I holster here? In the hopes that BOTH I get tracked AND the person who is roleblocked doesn't say they were? Because if I get tracked AND there's someone who was obviously roleblocked, then I no longer have an excuse for not moving.

    I came into the thread and quickly responded to a discussion that, as I showed up, included me. I didn't hesitate to reveal that what was just mentioned was false. There was no time to plan or strategize my reveal in that moment. So I'm either really good at quickly coming up with a great fake claim on the spot, or I was being honest.

    I'll let you decide.
    I just want to point out, that it's REALLY EASY for wolves to disprove these kinds of mechanical posts...especially because we are all just guessing at what happened. We guess wrong most of the time, so telling us why it didn't happen that way is EASY.

    DO NOT TOWNREAD THIS.




    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4901)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#4654)
    Quote Originally Posted by sKeith (#4601)
    Apoc - in poe ( the case here is weak. roro and definition would have to have given up their chances at playing in the champs past day2 (and its not like something apoc could do without them, as roro posted the slip), in order to let apoc win. is the win more important than playing for these guys? maybe they dont like playing as wolves, but roro was reveling in it. apoc killing of pizza to keep the glory to himself as town away from pizza, now thats more believable, so maybe town apoc just makes more sense )
    Look at this $#@!ing read


    How is this guy a wolf


    COME ON

    this is some really critical thinking.

    I hadnt even thought about the fact that for me to be a wolf...RoTo would be intentionally giving up his shot at qualifying

    In this game there is a strange dynamic of every wolf for himself...at least among strong wolfbros.

    Interesting thought keith


    (Still have not ISOd keith yet )
    No offense, but Apoc, you've used logic like this to clear a lot of scum this game.
    gaslighting Apoc

    It doesn't work btw B)



    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4915)
    I'm reading EoD3 real quick
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4947)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#4939)
    Quote Originally Posted by sothys (#4856)
    because we called her on that peetty hard. she only flipped when allt of people where calling her a wolf bussing another wolf
    he was already bussed

    how does flipping help?


    that makes no sense whatsoever. A wolf doubles down imo
    Wrong.

    While tartina's actions do feel like those of town: The SMART wolf play there is to back off.

    Precisely because of the WWWWWIIIIIIFFFFFOOOOOMMMMM you are engaged in now.

    Apoc. Stop it.
    this $#@!ing read again. "Townie, but that's what wolves would do!"

    also, more attempts to stop me townreading people.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#4952)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#4940)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#4939)
    he was already bussed

    how does flipping help?


    that makes no sense whatsoever. A wolf doubles down imo
    like she was being suspected PRE FLIP

    If she is a wolf, shes knows DD is GOING TO FLIP RED


    Why would she ever assume anyone would suspect her for CORRECTLY KILLING A WOLF.


    That's makes no sense
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#4941)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#4940)
    like she was being suspected PRE FLIP

    If she is a wolf, shes knows DD is GOING TO FLIP RED


    Why would she ever assume anyone would suspect her for CORRECTLY KILLING A WOLF.


    That's makes no sense
    she always doubles down

    she never retracts
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#4945)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#4943)
    Does anyone have a read on Tartina that isn't


    "She MIGHT have bussed DigitalDude"


    Like seriously?

    Ignore the (awesome fancy play and) claims...and tell me if her posts are townie or scummy?
    whether she bussed or not seems pretty WIFOMy unless you back it up with posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#4948)
    Quote Originally Posted by sothys (#4944)
    it helps because poe at the time wa tartina then dd. game over.
    No, DD was going to die...he was almost maj'd

    why would she retract


    she gets out of the PoE by killing DD...she chose to not do that, as his wolfbro?

    Thus, getting NO CREDIT and LOTS OF ATTENTION


    come on
    She does not get out of the PoE by killing DD. Because it looks like busing. You might be one of 3 people who pushes her out of the PoE for killing him. Everyone else puts her near the top.

    Maybe the problem with your logic is you assume everyone else uses it?
    More of the same. Widen PoE. Gaslight Apoc.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#5037)
    Hey guys. I'm here. I'm awake. But I'm tired. I wasn't expecting to be alive today. So I didn't come in with anything ready. Sorry.

    I'm going to follow up on my suggestion yesterday: reading D3's mechanics discussions regarding N3 actions.

    Scum had to have planned for N3 to be a disaster for town. Someone either made bad suggestions, or someone conveniently ignored the bad suggestions that were being made.

    @sKeith I don't think you ever actually answered me yesterday: Why did you think to block faddy? You dodged the question if I remember correctly. Did you know he was a role cop that night? Did that factor into your decision?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#5124)
    This is a wall. Forgive me, but holy $#@!.

    @sKeith is town here. Period. There is nothing here that implicates him in a scum plot. And he CONSTANTLY tried to engage others in night-action resolution discussions.

    @mendel @Faddy @Apoc (in that order) both soft ball all hard press for a Pizza lynch.
    @Archangel passively agrees and joins.

    mendel, Faddy, Apoc all engaged in night-action discussions rather ineffectively. Mendel and Faddy, in particular directly dodged multiple requests from sKeith to resolve his night action choice.

    tartina was here for a lot of that, but had no part in it. It's believable that she wouldn't be involved in mechanics discussions. She also doesn't show an interest in lynching Pizza. She's town (or my theory is wrong). Archangel was also here for all of the important parts of this, but I suspect she also had no interest in discussing mechanics but she's slightly complicit in pushing Pizza.

    I don't quote myself in this wall, but for my own part, I was fully focused on claims. I was too tired to think about the other discussions so I took no part in mechanics discussions. I also don't push Pizza (other than providing a read early on). Nor was I around for any part of what lead to his lynch. I was asleep.

    I don't have anything conclusive on anyone. But if the last scum was complicit in N3 actions being bad AND in Pizza's lynch, the guilty party is most likely in mendel, Apoc or Faddy.

    I'm sorry that I haven't really resolved today's issue. =/

    I might go over this again later to see if I can find better clues as to people's motives.

    P.S. D3 was a cluster$#@!.

    *SNIP*


    Ok, credit where it's due, he did some work here.

    But I predicted he would find nothing good here. I'm not gonna get the post, mendel should remember.

    As a wolf he knows that already before he starts, and that makes this potential busywork. He gets to avoid pushing villagers, and interacting in thread.


    He townreads Keith at a point where keith is already never getting lynched

    He only towns Keith when he doesn't need his lynch anymore




    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#5143)
    Quote Originally Posted by tartina (#5139)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#5137)
    Can you answer this? Why would you assume I can?
    Last wolf i think Is Mendel.
    Can you tell me yours last wolf? I don t want an analysys, only a name.
    Then you're not going to get what you want. This is not a reasonable request.
    Dodging solving. Pretty low level stuff, but whatever.

    I quoted it...so here are some words.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#5234)
    ##Vote Archangel

    @Archangel, how good of an actor do you think you are as scum?


    Dendrek's Tartina "Case"


    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#5266)
    Loosely: the case I can make against @tartina

    buddying - this is a major aspect of her play this game. She nudged, begged, and sometimes even demanded people town read her.

    possible tmi - some of her buddying looked like she knew her targets were town despite there being no significant reason for her to think so. Her seeming confidence that roro and digital were scum aligns with this.

    self-incrimination - she insisted people not check her with night actions.

    fake innocence - the amount of times she's naively confessed she didn't understand the game or certain aspects of it is easily far and above anyone else this game. She also insisted that though she's probably played longer than most of us, she never really got good at the game.

    possible slip-knowledge - she seemed particularly eager to get pizza to iso roro after faddy claimed. She asked him multiple times to do it.

    possible roro-alignment - on D1, she goes pretty hard on roro, her first actual scum read, who she threatens to vote again, but when she posts a reads list shortly after, he doesn't appear on it at all. He actually only gets mentioned a bit later with her saying she "reconsidered" him.

    possible check-bussing - while others insist that after busing digital, she should stick to her guns and let him be lynched, the wiser choice is to back off. It's the unlikely choice, but it removes the accusation that she was bussing. She gets credit for outing scum without it being busing anymore

    winning-scum tell - she became so relaxed after she was no longer suspected of being scum that she practically stopped playing the game, and fell completely out of faze with up-to-date knowledge of the game state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#5271)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#5266)
    Loosely: the case I can make against @tartina

    buddying - this is a major aspect of her play this game. She nudged, begged, and sometimes even demanded people town read her.

    possible tmi - some of her buddying looked like she knew her targets were town despite there being no significant reason for her to think so. Her seeming confidence that roro and digital were scum aligns with this

    self-incrimination - she insisted people not check her with night actions.

    fake innocence - the amount of times she's naively confessed she didn't understand the game or certain aspects of it is easily far and above anyone else this game. She also insisted that though she's probably played longer than most of us, she never really got good at the game.

    possible slip-knowledge - she seemed particularly eager to get pizza to iso roro after faddy claimed. She asked him multiple times to do it.

    possible roro-alignment - on D1, she goes pretty hard on roro, her first actual scum read, who she threatens to vote again, but when she posts a reads list shortly after, he doesn't appear on it at all. He actually only gets mentioned a bit later with her saying she "reconsidered" him.

    possible check-bussing - while others insist that after busing digital, she should stick to her guns and let him be lynched, the wiser choice is to back off. It's the unlikely choice, but it removes the accusation that she was bussing. She gets credit for outing scum without it being busing anymore.

    winning-scum tell - she became so relaxed after she was no longer suspected of being scum that she practically stopped playing the game, and fell completely out of faze with up-to-date knowledge of the game state.
    ##Vote tartina
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#5273)
    I think pressuring tartina might be informative.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek (#5474)
    I'm awake.

    ##Unvote tartina

    I woke up and realized what I was doing last night was stupid. That was me trying to be constructive while overly tired. I really do think the last scum is in mendel or AA.

    There was no way I ever lynch tartina today. Catching up.


    This case was lame when he posted it and it's lame now. Tell me you read this and BELIEVED he thought tartina was scum?

    Go some of my Mendel posts from SoD

    Go Pizza's cases on Tartina

    Go read Tartina and AA posting about each other.


    compare them to this, this guy doesn't BELIEVE tartina is a wolf.

    This case is soft, and lifeless like all his others. This guy KNOWS tartina is town.


    Dendrek is a wolf.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#5988)
    @Archangel
    @mendel
    @sKeith
    @sothys

    I dont know if i need to convince you that im town, or that im a reliable person to sheep


    I think it's probably the latter?


    You don't trust me enough to blindly sheep me. You think i'm erratic, all over the place...
    that's just my style, I push my wolfreads WITH CONVICTION (something Dendrek knows nothing about this game).


    I was pocketed by Roro, so were many of us.


    I was baffled by Pizza, well, I was just two days early I guess. I had him as town for EoD1 and D2, hell most of D3.


    I scumread Sothys, let's not pretend like we all didn't do the same, i'm pretty sure some of us are scumreading him still...even knowing he is a peeked villager

    But guess what, Day 2 I came back and I FIXED IT. Hours before he was peeked, i declared him town.



    Day 1, I said Phaze votes were lazy/wolfy, and i didnt want to give wolves the option. He had 2 wolves voting him

    Day 1 I said that carrote's ISO was townie, everyone disagreed...it was thin, but IT WAS THERE.
    (It all worked out thankfully...we got ArchAngel in the game to carry us to victory)


    I made a Definition wagon, just to see what would happen. Dendrek outplayed me, he joined the wagon knowing it would never go all the way (or hoping for some easy cred). I cleard that entire wagon for too long.


    EoD1 I cleared Carrote, but 3 wolves were voting her, so they didnt care.
    EoD1 I cleared Faddy, and defended him from Pizza
    EoD1 I cleared Grave and defended him from...Faddy?

    EoD1 I want to learn more about Tartina, I promise to help her solve on Day 2
    SoD2 I show Tartina why Grave is town, we create the Cute Town Alliance. Tartina invites Faddy, he ignores her friend request (what a $#@! )

    The slip happens, soon after I find DigitalDude dejected, and I push him.
    He gets FPS'd by Town!Tartina, I explain in giant green letters why she is always town. I vote DigiDude.
    We all go insane and lynch Pizza while Wolf!Dendrek watches from the sidelines, keeping his hands clear of another v/v $#@! show.

    But I was right, and i hope tartina's flip will clear your heads, or we will lose this game!

    I've been hard clearing Keith since D3. NQT too. My pizza!haze clouds my Phaze read (sorry phaze).

    I PoE lots of villagers, under the assumption that Dendrek is mech clear...eventually I have only one name who I can't find reasons to townread. I am confident, I won't lie...I am SURE it has to be mendel.

    I actually was townreading mendel for a long stretch, but i didn't know where else to look!

    So I go all in at SoD, try to look cool (RIP ).
    ArchAngel convinces me he is town. Mendel convinces me he is town, he didn't even change his playstyle...I just now believe it's his town playstyle.

    I FIXED THIS READ, Just like I fixed my Sothys read.



    My process is MESSY, I said this day 1...but it gets results!
    It gets reactions. I make a fool of myself, but I learn what i need to learn.
    I always try my best to be open-minded, years of mafia has thought me that much.


    I fully believe that everyone in this game except Dendrek is UNLYNCHABLY TOWNIE.

    You are all town. I just need to convince you.





    FACTS:
    - Wolves Bus
    - Wolves Lie about mechanics
    - Wolves are actively trying to deceive you, this is why calling Dendrek's individual posts wolfy is difficult. This is why spew analysis is so dangerous.

    I can't explain why Dendrek went nowhere on Night 2. But I can explain why he's a wolf.

    - His reads lack conviction. Just like DigiDude.
    - His only STRONG read, was on wolf Digidude, after he was already going down.
    Has this guy really (and I mean really) pushed a villager in a way that leads you guys to believe he REALLY thinks they are a wolf? That he DOESNT KNOW they are villagers?

    Dendrek is a CAREFUL WOLF.
    His post are all reasonable, but they are also all safe.
    He was one of two (?) people not liking Roro's posts.
    In fact, he scumread/shaded THREE wolves on day 1...
    And, he has led lynches on ZERO VILLAGERS (think about that).

    This guy is a MAFIA GOD, he found 3 of them day 1!
    He should be leading us to glorious victory...only one more wolf left!

    but he's not...

    He's sitting on the sidelines. Watching us implode. Hiding behind his "cleared" status.

    He has not lead the charge on a single wolf wagon. He is always JUST IN TIME to get there before they go down, to claim a bit of credit.

    Everyone who strongly pushed a villager this game (I mean STRONGLY), raise your hand

    Everyone who strongly pushed Carotte...

    Everyone who strongly pushed Phaze or Keith..

    Everyone who strongly pushed Pizza, or Tartina...Apoc...

    Raise your hand


    Are you a villager?

    Can you think of anyone else who has not made at least ONE embarassingly bad read this game?

    Is that person a villager? Or does he know all the answers?


    Think about that when you are picking your vote today
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#6016)
    From the makers of Shower Thoughts (me, yesterday)

    I bring you

    TOILET THOUGHTS

    \o/

    (I'm not in there any more, that'd be gross...but im also not at my desk yet)



    Digi was probably trying to draw a N3 cop CC. Like i said, when i ISO all 3 dead wolves, there is a pattern of role hunting.

    So NQT, Carotte, or Distorted were the N3 cop.

    We know Dendrek went nowhere. Most likely they sent Digi to him, holstering doesn't really make sense.


    I can link people to my scum game (Sukilimas) where we rolecopped me after having already removed one 3P tracker from the game...we had no idea if there was a town one, it was a COMPLETE hail Mary. But it works, the rolecop was seen visiting me. I was given a lot of credit for it...but it still wasnt easy.

    I convinced the town to lynch elsewhere and i won the game at LYLO.


    Dendrek going nowhere is not clearing.

    I'm the occam's razor guy, remember. This is not tinfoil land. Dendrek is the final wolf here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#6073)
    Ok,

    There are a lot of ways to play mafia. I fully support people playing whatever way makes them happy (unless that includes game-throwing). I would never ask anyone to play a certain way.

    BUT, objectively (imo) there is one method of scum that cannot be beaten.

    There is one common denominator across ALL types of mafia games: an uninformed minority, who have Too Much Information (TMI).

    Turbos, Mish-Mashes, small games, HUGE 100 player games, Role Madness games and Vanilla games. They all have this single CORE mechanic.

    A group of players with TMI.

    Important: a lack of TMI can not be faked. If you believe anything else, then you must also believe mafia is a futile game.

    I know the signs & symptoms of a person with TMI, i have spent years learning them. I know when i've found them.

    But there's a catch, this method is also the hardest, and most time intensive way to play mafia! It takes a LONG time to process one person. Especially in a game like this one.

    That's why we invent shortcuts. We try to generalize behaviours: Tartina's day yesterday "looks scummy"...but her ISO as a whole, was townie...her play yesterday matched her personality. Only by doing hours of reading can you come to the correct conclusion.

    Some people like to play exclusively with shortcuts, they love VCA analysis (Hi NQT ).

    Example shortcuts:
    - Vote Count analysis
    - Post count analysis
    - townie/scummy "tone"
    - generalizations of wolf behaviour
    - "too wolfy to be a wolf" reads

    Etc.

    All of these are fallible, but some shortcuts are better than others. I believe post count reads is HIGHLY effective, because it is indirectly tied to TMI (ppl without TMI have no issue posting lots).


    ----

    I've taken plenty of shortcuts this game. Most notably with Mendel. I PoE'd him as the wolf, and stupidly tried to convince people.

    If we were playing a 12/12 game, dendrek would already have won.

    It took me a week and a half, but i finally got through everyone in the game. I've read you ALL.


    I have found the signs of TMI in only ONE person.

    I have been playing a long time, and i truly believe this is one of the EASIEST end-games i have EVER seen.

    Sometimes wolves ruthlessly bus their whole team. They tunnel villagers like mad men. They are difficult to truly read. This is not one of those times.

    Dendrek's only push with conviction was on "dead man walking" digital dude. He has no other strong pushes. [b]This is a text book example of TMI[/].
    He KNOWS digi is a wolf when he makes that post. Why hasn't he brought that conviction to a single other wolf read?

    Why was he not excited to dig in to Roro & Definitions posts?

    Why did he disappear at :53 at EoD1, the most exciting time for a townie to play. Some players cant read that fast, I don't believe Dendrek is one of them.

    Why wasnt he killed N4?



    I will repeat.

    This is one of the EASIEST ENDGAMES i have EVER SEEN.

    The game is EASY. Do not tinfoil it.

    If you learned nothing this game...it should be that TINFOIL IS BAD. Pizza and tartina die for nothing if you don't at least learn from it.


    The guy with 1200 posts? He's a villager. Read his posts.

    The guy (Keith) with more and more WIM, the more scum die...is a villager!

    The girl (Arch) who has pushed on lots of people like a mad dog... she has NO $#@!ING IDEA who the scum are. Her lack of TMI gives her confidence (the contradictory nature of mafia! ). She has WIM.

    Mendel, well my towncase is weakest here, but i will bet the game on him being town. He has tried his hardest all game long. I believe his back and forth with me about his 9) point case, was townie.
    ArchAngel locks him town, and i will happily sheep her here.

    Do not lynch into AA/mendel/keith because they are not "mechanically clear".
    That's lazy.
    That's a shortcut.
    And it will lose us this game.


    I have nothing to add onto here. The case was correct. It was correct for the right reasons. It came from a villager who was spewed clear by a genuine scumslip. Dendrek had played very well, but he did so in a classically wolfy way that doesn't really stand up to thorough examination like the way Apoc did. Everybody else was either mechanically clear, spewed clear, or cleared through behavior and/or interactions. This should have been the easiest slam dunk in the history of slam dunks.

    Dendrek defended himself as best as he could, and it must be said did reasonably well about standing up to Apoc's accusations. He gets full credit for surviving and partial credit for helping turn it around on Apoc. But he was dead to rights.

    Apoc's allies, the other reasonable people in the thread, had been systematically killed off over the past several days. There weren't many townies remaining, and those who were had always been skeptical of Apoc. They had always disagreed with him, or prioritized different traits, or read mechanics a different way. They had tinfoiled him harder than many of the dead players. And they found what they thought were holes in Apoc's case.

    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#6029)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#6016)
    From the makers of Shower Thoughts (me, yesterday)

    I bring you

    TOILET THOUGHTS

    \o/

    (I'm not in there any more, that'd be gross...but im also not at my desk yet)



    Digi was probably trying to draw a N3 cop CC. Like i said, when i ISO all 3 dead wolves, there is a pattern of role hunting.
    Like you've benn doing with your "we control the even doc" and the weird way you went into "I've been blocked", that was clearly role hunting
    why do you do that as town?


    So NQT, Carotte, or Distorted were the N3 cop.
    Or cop3 was the discarded role, and used by the scum as fallback
    digital was R2R4 RB, he couldn't claim that because he was blocking people he had no case on (Dendrek), so he went with the fallback

    We know Dendrek went nowhere. Most likely they sent Digi to him, holstering doesn't really make sense.
    Sending digi to him makes no sense either.

    I can link people to my scum game (Sukilimas) where we rolecopped me after having already removed one 3P tracker from the game...we had no idea if there was a town one, it was a COMPLETE hail Mary. But it works, the rolecop was seen visiting me. I was given a lot of credit for it...but it still wasnt easy.

    I convinced the town to lynch elsewhere and i won the game at LYLO.
    your argument was that scum!digital blocks scum!dendrek so that scum!dendrek can say "I was the doctor, but I was blocked"? How would he even know? what reason would he have had to protect NQT, which would've been the only way he could notice? how would he have drawn a rolecop upon himself? in a game where everyone has a role they can claim, so a role cop can't actually town clear anyone? How was this going to work? Can I get a step-by-step for that?



    Dendrek going nowhere is not clearing.

    I'm the occam's razor guy, remember. This is not tinfoil land. Dendrek is the final wolf here.
    Dendrek tracked nowhere after softclaiming even doctor ( @Faddy found that, RIP, the wolf shot our best investigator) IS clearing.
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#6034)
    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel (#6020)
    Good morning. Too tired to absorb the big wall posts yet. I just wanted to explain to @Dendrek why I wanted you to put down a vote yesterday.

    If Tartina flipped town there was going to be a big push on you today obviously and I wanted more information to evaluate you with today.

    Where I come from people are lynched for not voting for this reason (“he doesn’t want to commit to a vote to leave his PoE open tomorrow.”)

    I’m not saying that makes you a wolf, I realize it’s culture clash, but I am saying if you’re Town I wish you left us evidence today that was more useful.
    Dendrek had a case on tartina posted earlier
    we've been staying off votes because maj
    Apoc was pushing for it, I suspect, because he didn't want countervoices to his rush tactics
    but Dendrek wanting to vote Tartina was clear all day
    he was committed to it
    at least that was my perception
    did you see that differently? did you see him post in defense of tartina at any time yesterday?
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#6046)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#6030)
    My play yesterday makes no sense as a wolf

    I push mendel only to UNDO.

    I townread tartina, but then i worry...EVERYONE says im wrong. She is not being reasonable at endgame.
    I re-read her for a fourth time and just as she is lynchable...I Quadruple down!! She is TOWN.

    Then i push Dendrek, the only person NOBODY wants to lynch. I DONT NEED HIS LYNCH, definitely not D4!!

    But i see it, he's the last wolf. I vote him, we get him to two.




    At EoD. I know i dont have time. Tartina has 4 votes and the wolf isnt even voting her. My stomach is in knots. I just want the day to be over, "maybe she will flip wolf!?"...i cant wait, i hope the game will be over...or you guys will get a wake up call from her flipping green.

    I hammer. Then i feel bad about it, because she was my Cute Town Team, she OWNED this game. She outted DD. She had the WINNING poe on d4. And you guys lynched her, because pizza-logic.
    No, my friend, that is not what happened.
    After my TITLE BAR post at the end of D4, you opened D5 with a lame-$%#! vote on me.
    You didn't expect my case on you, completely bailed on it, and worked your way towards backpedalling your read on me in the hope of taking the pressure off. Or maybe you did townread me, I dunno. But it took you awhile.

    You also asked about what roles Dendrek could have claimed, preparing (and starting) a push on Dendrek that Archangel sheeped, and that stalled when I posted that Dendrek is mechanically clear, and that a push on Dendrek was level 2 wolf tactic that explained why dendrek wasn't shot N4. You completely ignored all of that, only to pick up the push on Dendrek an hour before EoD.

    And YOU hammered Tartina one minute before EoD. WHY?
    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel (#6088)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#6080)
    I will re-read AA, just for you @mendel

    But if the end result is that you ignore it, like everyone did with my FOURTH TARTINA ISO...then that's not on me.

    Even the most persuasive man alive can't convince everyone.



    I will not re-read you. If AA is scum, you are town. If AA is town, you are again town.

    I will not re-read keith. Everyone alive yesterday (including Dendrek) except for Sothys belived him to be beyond reproach.


    I dont need to read dendrek or sothys
    @Apoc this post concerns me.

    “If AA is Town you are again Town.”
    ?
    You have *that* much faith in my ability to correctly read Mendel? If so why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel (#6107)
    @Apoc I absolutely trust myself, I just don’t understand how you could be so sure I’m right.
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#6150)
    Fake Scumslip World

    scum team
    Apoc: N1 N3 doctor
    roro__b: Voyeur (strongman)
    Definition: N1 watcher (macho)
    digitaldude: N2 N4 role blocker
    unused role: N3 Cop

    the N1/D2 plan
    a) roro:Voyeur strongman kills Distorted (killing Askthepizzaguy would put suspicion on Apoc)
    b) Apoc protects Distorted for town credit
    c) roro uses Voyeur to cover up the kill (does not work)
    d) the Voyeur results shows protected&killed
    e) town!roro knows that Distorted was protected
    f) sKeith had claimed NQT as target
    g) if roro confronts sKeith, this leads nowhere ("Keith is lying")
    h) Apoc drops hints about getting blocked
    i) "scumslip" posted
    j) roro gets "confused" about who got killed and mentions Apoc, drawing him in the converstation (seriously? how often have you forgotten your night target after you have read your night result PM?)
    k) Apoc suddenly remember that strongman exists, and claims that he protected Distorted
    l) everyone agrees that this is what happened
    m) Apoc fails to discover scumslip on two occasions
    o) once he learns of it, posts literally "OMG! DEFINITION IS A WOLF!"
    p) spewed clear by scumslip
    q) scumslip explains why roro knew about Apoc
    r) scumslip confirmed real by Definition flip
    s) Apoc has double towncred (almost saved Distorted, spewed town by scumslip)
    t) roro is in a good mood all day after the slip is dicovered because the plan is working
    u) Apoc wins?

    This requires
    1) Apoc has enough authority to cajole/convince roro/Defintion/digitaldude
    2) these guys are good team players
    3) they get player credit toward sthe endgame for their role in pulling off this double deception play


    Are we living in this world?



    Some Evidence


    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1540)
    We need some claims today

    Im not sure how many yet.

    Certainly the N1 watcher should claim if they saw something. Would be awesome if they watched me but i dont have high hopes
    The N1 watcher watched Apoc. This is the scumslip tactic, btw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1546)
    I think the town JOATs should have been doctoring and tracking last night most of the time

    Hopefully thats what they did
    generic role hunting

    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1575)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#1574)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1568)
    I need everyone who heavily scumreads me to step forward so we can have a chat
    so someone roleblocked you last night, and you want to find out who?
    why wouldn't you assume that scum did?
    I can make that assumption is nobody comes forward

    You've kind of ruined the plan somewhat tho
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1597)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#1582)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1568)
    I need everyone who heavily scumreads me to step forward so we can have a chat
    THIS is making it about you.
    it asks for a discussion on "how wolfy is Apoc", how is that even useful
    (except as a see-through gambit)
    Im sorry i dont play how you want me to play.

    But so far im 2/2 on flipped townreads and your top suspect just got NKd.

    I know my alignment. Using that information is important for finding wolves. You also know well why i asked that particular question, and the andswer is both important and inherently about me for obvious reasons.

    I didnt make this about me. The person who roleblocked me did.
    the scumslip
    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#1610)
    I think abovementioned might be a great way to discredit apoc.

    Definition: you can out yourself as n1 watcher by asking apoc something along the lines of "you're claiming to have been roleblocked butnkbody visited you this night. Explain". Coukd be a way to mark you as towny.

    Just a suggestion but feels pretty goodif we can turn it into a lynch
    1626 is Apoc answering 1610 from Pizzaguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1710)
    This day is going well, i wonder if there are even any wolves posting so far.

    I think i shall continue to leave you guys to it

    then at 1733 roro comes in, just read the game from there, amybe to 1789

    quotes and comments (just what I found funny/notable, do read the thread pls)
    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#1737)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1575)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#1574)
    so someone roleblocked you last night, and you want to find out who?
    why wouldn't you assume that scum did?
    I can make that assumption is nobody comes forward

    You've kind of ruined the plan somewhat tho
    That first quote was @Apoc. I'm going to play this the way I know how to, I've got a role and I'll use it. You were protected and killed this night. Meaning N1 jailkeeper was at your place if you were blocked, right? Why does sKeith say he went to NQT.

    There, some juicy stuff for us all to dig in to.

    Do i vote Apoc or sKeith here.

    hidden highlights:
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1756)
    Lmao the derps in the thread right now are too much

    It'll be a miracle if we ever lynch a wolf this game


    We're all idiots. Go team
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#1763)
    Hol up people making claims now?
    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#1777)
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#1763)
    Hol up people making claims now?
    Not claiming at this point would be $%#!, we just got several townies cleared (apoc would never doc a mafia colleague),keith wouldn't lie about roleblocking NQT. This is all NAI for NQT but locktown on apoc and keith for me right now.

    THIS is how we use power roles in my home community. Everybody has a role in most games - there we also are allowed to pm anyone wewwant and its all just a wonderful mess. If I have a role and can clear townies like this i'll do it d2 1000 times out of 1000. Someone else does something similar that wILL give us a solid towncore. I'm so fukin hyped right now my hands are shaking

    and no that doesntmean we should out everybody, but if you have anything of value and you risk dying with it youre just bad.
    "apoc would never doc a mafia colleague"
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1779)
    I dont see any world where RoRo comes in here with this line while giving info about the damn scum NK

    Dude has to be town, surely!
    you just confirmed that this was a strongman kill, and he was the strongman
    yet you townread him
    after that weird way he fingered you


    Quote Originally Posted by Faddy (#1785)
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#1783)
    So if you are blocked you actually get told you are blocked? opposite in my community.
    Apoc is saying since the Voyeur saw his action then his protection did not fail.

    Of course there is the world where the protection did fail but Apoc and roro can still present this info because they are both scum.
    proof that Voyeur confirming Apoc is not enough to secure town cred


    let me just color the dead people on t
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1789)
    Im just gonna stare at this world of townies for a few mins


    Apoc
    Faddy
    Gravebound
    notquitethere
    roro__b
    tartina


    Askthepizzaguy
    mendel
    Phaze
    sKeith



    What if all the scum were below this sentence?


    Definition
    Dendrek
    digitaldude
    Okowoko
    sothys
    oh look
    the "easy lynches" are still alive
    and the guy at the top of the list
    I wonder why
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1820)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#4)
    Definition BIO:
    Started playing this mafia after a few friends introduced this to me, have been absolutely addicted to it since then.
    this guy is certainly not addicted to mafia this week
    dig at a teammate? roro and digital are online
    maybe definition was supposed to find ("react") to the scumslip and didn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Faddy (#1847)
    Well I have had dinner. Time to blow up the game

    @roro__b is a wolf.

    I am a Joat. I tracked him to Distorted, twice. He used his voyeur action and also submitted the kill.

    There is no doubt.

    ##Vote roro__b
    Quote Originally Posted by Faddy (#1850)
    On interaction I have the following people in my town

    phase
    mendel
    Okowoko
    sothys

    Then Tartina is still town and probably gravebound. At this point I need to kick Apoc out because of the way he has pushed roro__b as town both yesterday and today.
    @Faddy has been right!
    Apoc pushing roro as town is him trying to fake not having TMI. Here's what someone who doesn't have TMI writes:
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#1835)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1761)
    The rolecop, the odd tracker and the voyeur are the only strongman in the game

    If this is some sick next level play by RoRo where he carried the strongman kill AND then posted his voyeur results. Well thats a little too terrifying to thonk about.


    So that leaves the tracker and the Role cop.
    BOTH trackers have strongman now
    maybe scum only have the one and so you didnt notice

    and why do you believe that macho roleblocks protection? pulling it out of your $%#!?
    and why would a scum!voyeaur NOT kill and investigate the same target? it would foil the tracker and the watcher (blame it on the ninja)
    explain why the super scum hunter Apoc never suspected the strongman voyeur with the weird role claim gambit
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#1865)
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#1862)
    Alright.

    You had roro as town yesterday. You tracked him anyway?
    blunty either he is lying or roro is lying. Unless this is some 4D chess and they are both mafia. but doubt.
    it is 4D chess, but not these two



    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1875)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1868)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#1867)
    I literally just finished a roro ISO and was gonna call him town
    tbh if it was anyone but Faddy i wouldn't believe it


    damn man
    im staring at his ISO and i dont see where i went wrong
    "im staring at his ISO and i dont see where i went wrong"
    that is the ISO that stopped one post short of the scumslip, btw

    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#2153)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#2152)
    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#2141)
    Tbh I still can't find where it shows as 2 separate or I would have sent apoc instead to take the shot. I've played for like MANY years and never seen tracker find 2 visits from one person. We do this all the time there
    "sent apoc instead"
    Scum slip




    Apoc: "im staring at his ISO and i dont see where i went wrong"
    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel (#6175)
    ##Vote Apoc

    The post where you said if Archangel is scum Mendel is town and if Archangel is Town Mendel is Town has stuck in my craw all day.

    If you’re Town you’re okay with being lynched first, I will vote Dendrek tomorrow, he was in my original PoE.

    If you’re scum you’re setting up my mislynch for tomorrow.

    You can’t reverse course on me today after insisting Keith and I are the towniest people alive, so I have to do this now.

    And I’m getting genuine frustration vibes from Dendrek and Hail Mary enjoyment from you.

    (Sorry! I’m enjoying your performance immensely but we’ve danced this dance before.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#6189)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#6187)
    @Apoc I doublechecked your work, it isn't convincing me
    I worked on the bus-roleblock thing though

    @sKeith thank you

    @Archangel i forgot to tag you in my previous post
    you didnt do jack $#@!


    what about keith and arch angel?

    Who is the wolf?


    You cant tell me, because it's $#@!ing Dendrek.


    There were six people alive: Apoc, Dendrek, mendel, Archangel, sothys, and sKeith. Apoc had Dendrek as a wolf. Dendrek was a wolf fighting for survival. sKeith wasn't sure of who the wolf was between Apoc and Dendrek but voted with Apoc that day. mendel had been suspicious of Apoc for multiple phases. Archangel was wavering but her paranoia put her on Apoc. sothys wasn't sure of who to lynch between the two.

    The day ended with a votecount of 3-2-1. Apoc was lynched thanks to mendel, Dendrek, and Archangel. Dendrek had two votes, from Apoc and sKeith. sothys did not vote and was not around at EOD.

    The guy literally spewed clear by a scumslip, the guy who had spent the entire day burying the last wolf more thoroughly than I can remember anyone doing to anyone else, the guy who had spent the entire game preaching sanity and patience when the tinfoil threatened to go off the rails and was always, always proven right by the flips, was lynched.

    Why is was a bad lynch: This was the perfect storm of circumstances to top the Sooh lynch for worst ever. Firstly, Apoc was spewed clear. Not through interactions, which can be faked by skilled wolves, but through a genuine scumslip that had no indications whatsoever of being fake. Secondly, it didn't happen in a moment or even a dayphase of madness, but was a slow burn that built up steam through multiple dayphases. Over the course of a week, specchat joked about the possibility of it happening, then were scared that it might happen, then acted in horror as it was happening, and then finally came to terms with it having happened. It was a slow-motion train wreck that people saw coming from hundreds of miles away but could do nothing to stop.

    But the cherry on top, the capper, wasn't that Apoc was just some random villager who was coasting on his clear status. He wasn't even a decently productive townie who just didn't see eye to eye with the consensus. Apoc had the last wolf nailed. He exhaustively, meticulously, and openly worked through the game multiple times to arrive at the conclusion he did. He was open about his process, his prior mistakes in the game, and produced detail on request every time it was asked for. He tried harder than I had ever seen anyone try in a mafia game in order to get people to see. He went well beyond the extra mile. He truly Wanted It Most.

    For the town to ignore or not properly read any one of these factors (1610, the slow build and not checking yourself in time, Apoc's case/WIM) is bad enough. To ignore or not properly read all three is a failure on every possible level.

    The narrative of Apoc's lynch is "he was spewed clear by 1610 and they lynched him anyway". But it goes beyond that. People can be overcome by tinfoil. People can fail to reevaluate the game when necessary. People can misclear and mis-suspect people. People can get lost in tunnels. People can not recognize the merits of an individual case and/or defense. You can try to limit these in your own town game, but everyone makes mistakes. But making all of these mistakes in the same game, at the expense of the same person? That's a one in a million scenario.

    The reasons for lynching Sooh were perhaps worse than the reasons for lynching Apoc, but the Sooh lynch happened on D1 with a clean slate. The confluence of events surrounding Apoc's lynch were so incredible, and so stacked in his favor, that the fact that he got lynched anyway is what puts this one over the top.

    To make matters worse, by EOD, Apoc had mostly accepted his fate and was begging that the town just listen to him and lynch Dendrek on the final day for the win. Everybody swore up and down that they would. When that day came and the game was down to final 4, the town of course did not lynch Dendrek. It was merely par for course for them.

    Lessons learned: The circumstances behind Apoc's lynch were so unique that they're not really necessary to put as a lesson, but there are a few larger concepts that relate to this lynch that I can discuss. The first is that tinfoil has its place, but keep it there.

    Tinfoil, in a broad definition, is a bit beyond merely going against the grain. It's taking a commonly accepted-as-true aspect of the game and postulating that it is in fact false, working from there as you solve in this alternative world. It can be a useful tool for worldbuilding, but it can also be incredibly distracting and disruptive to a cohesive group solving process. Tinfoil is best deployed when the town is actively losing a game; when the gamestate as it currently stands is favorable to wolves and thus you need to shake it up in order to reset the status quo. The S6G4 town fell victim to tinfoil harder and faster than I had ever seen before, and none of it was justified. It was why they left the all-but-outed digitaldude alive on D3. It was why they lynched the should-have-been-crystal clear tartina on D5. And it was why they took down Apoc on D6. The town's numerical advantage on D6 was 5:1 with multiple clear players, one of which was mechanically cleared. That is not the time to break glass in case of an emergency. You can start thinking about it and putting it in your back pocket then, but not actively voting based off that.

    The other lesson I'm going to emphasize is sometimes it's worth it to take a step back and see the forest as a whole, not just the trees. Everybody on that day was knee-deep in isoing. They were parsing through interactions, working through worlds, and determining most likely scenarios. I'm certainly not saying this is a bad approach. But it needs to be balanced out with, occasionally, taking a zoomed-out view of the situation on the ground.

    Too much of any one playstyle or approach is a bad thing, even the good and thoughtful approaches. Sometimes, a perfect storm can come along that fully renders your preferred playstyle incorrect for the given moment. In times like that, you need to have other tools in your arsenal and rely on them. Otherwise you stand the risk of getting too lost in the minutiae and missing out on what's truly important.

    Speaking of missing out on what's truly important and not getting lost in the minutiae, let's summarize what we've learned.


    Cliffs:

    • Every single lynch, including mislynches, carries a lesson or lessons that can be applied to improve your play.
    • Recognizing and halting negative momentum can be one of the hardest things to do as a townie, but it can be key to preventing disaster.
    • The blame for bad mislynches is not individual, it's collective. Even if you don't make a bad case yourself, if you see a bad case, it's your duty to call it out and do your best to stop it from becoming viable.
    • It is worth your time to take a moment, center yourself, and become aware of the complete picture so you can focus on what's important.
    • If there's an outed or near-outed wolf in the thread, just lynch them. Don't get fancy, and don't get distracted.
    • If you're only here for the list itself, I've numbered the names in bold and with a slightly larger font than the rest of the article.

  2. ISO #2
    I've read only #10 so far.

    To what extent do you think the romanov mislynch was for being "too correct?" Do you have the wagon alignment composition vis-a-vis the setup?

  3. ISO #3
    1610 mendel's Avatar
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    Angry

    You have two lynches in your list of season 6 game, 4, but left out a key occurrence: a tracker confused "no result" with "did not move", thus leading to the mechanical conclusion that digitaldude had blocked Dendrek.
    Now it's not unheard of for that to happen, so the question was, would that scum team, if Dendrek was on it, have chosen to do that? I felt I had a good handle on Dendrek, felt that any team he was on would not have gone for that strategy, and was proven right afterwards: they had instead blocked the tracker.

    So the mental process by which I firmly towncleared Dendrek was based on a mechanical mistake by an experienced player. Such a mistake can happen to any of us, but I did not expect it in an experienced player, and I did not question this result. While the game was ongoing, none of us thought to question that piece of information. This is the reason why we did not lynch Dendrek after he survived N4, which he should not have survived, being the N4 doctor. Day 5 was the day he needed to be lynched, but for me at least, the above thought process cleared him absolutely, and then I was out of options, because there was no scum left to be found.

    By the end of day 6, after 12 full days of the most intense mafia game of my life that had consumed most of my waking hours, I was ready to examine and lynch Dendrek on day 7, and said so. Obviously I was killed that night.

    So, you are absolutely correct. Tartina and Apoc were bad lynches. My reason is that the better lynch required me to overcome a strong belief based on a false piece of information and a correct psychological assessment that I was very confident in. I was able to question that confidence in the 36 hours that was day 6, but was not able to vote for Dendrek that day. I did expect we'd get him day 7. Oh well.
    Last edited by mendel; April 27th, 2020 at 02:01 PM.

  4. ISO #4
    Nice read! I'm not in champs (and hopefully never will be) but I try and take away as much from these articles as I can. I can't count the number of games I've played where 2 people have thunderdomed each other (often D1) and so many players have said "Yeah this needs to be solved with a lynch" instead of just actually thinking through it.

    Sadly, I doubt that will ever change!
    "All the world will be your enemy, Prince With A Thousand Enemies"

    Jackofhearts2005: El analyses every single Achro post and gives the whole thing a massive scumread. Achro replies with one sentence and a frowny face. This game is over.

  5. ISO #5
    Quote Originally Posted by El-ahrairah (#4)
    Nice read! I'm not in champs (and hopefully never will be) but I try and take away as much from these articles as I can. I can't count the number of games I've played where 2 people have thunderdomed each other (often D1) and so many players have said "Yeah this needs to be solved with a lynch" instead of just actually thinking through it.

    Sadly, I doubt that will ever change!
    I swear if I hear anyone say they need to solve X/Y, especially where I am X or Y and I'm Town, I will policy ITA/lynch/douse/ignite/poison/vig them on the spot.

  6. ISO #6
    Quote Originally Posted by El-ahrairah (#4)
    Nice read! I'm not in champs (and hopefully never will be) but I try and take away as much from these articles as I can. I can't count the number of games I've played where 2 people have thunderdomed each other (often D1) and so many players have said "Yeah this needs to be solved with a lynch" instead of just actually thinking through it.

    Sadly, I doubt that will ever change!
    I swear if I hear anyone say they need to solve X/Y, especially where I am X or Y and I'm Town, I will policy ITA/lynch/douse/ignite/poison/vig them on the spot.

  7. ISO #7
    Soul Reader Paratroopa's Avatar
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    Feels good to be in two of the top 5 games and have nothing to do with the bad mislynch

  8. ISO #8
    Season 5 Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#2)
    I've read only #10 so far.

    To what extent do you think the romanov mislynch was for being "too correct?" Do you have the wagon alignment composition vis-a-vis the setup?
    Two of the four wolves were on romanov, but one, Phighter voted him in the first 100 posts and Collector Elwood, voted him in response to the cop claim and redcheck on himself, so he obviously had reasons for staying on.

    romanov's wagon was a full ten people at one point (no majority on D1) and none of the voters on him were wolves after a very early point in the game, he did initially pick up steam through mafia influence. So my thinking is, without having gone back in after researching a week or two ago, that the mafia for the most part stayed away once he took off.

    Vote history for reference
    Lenny - Today at 10:08 AM
    Atpg sometimes the paragraphs you write are pretty good


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  9. ISO #9
    Wants It More [NSM] Mikey's Avatar
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    S6G1D1 for giving the entire playerlist ptsd

  10. ISO #10
    Responsible for #8 Mistyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [NSM] Mikey (#9)
    S6G11 for giving the entire playerlist ptsd
    ebwop

  11. ISO #11
    Low Hanging Fruit LordQuas's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paratroopa (#7)
    Feels good to be in two of the top 5 games and have nothing to do with the bad mislynch
    paratroopa; harbinger of chaos
    :wiwe

  12. ISO #12
    Low Hanging Fruit LordQuas's Avatar Game Manager
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    also infolynch was underrated and monkey was overrated imo
    :wiwe

  13. ISO #13
    Wants It More [NSM] Mikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#10)
    Quote Originally Posted by [NSM] Mikey (#9)
    S6 for giving the entire playerlist ptsd
    ebwop
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  14. ISO #14
    Responsible for #8 Mistyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [NSM] Mikey (#13)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#10)
    Quote Originally Posted by [NSM] Mikey (#9)
    S6 for giving the entire playerlist ptsd
    ebwop
    compromise
    accepted

  15. ISO #15
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief (#8)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork (#2)
    I've read only #10 so far.

    To what extent do you think the romanov mislynch was for being "too correct?" Do you have the wagon alignment composition vis-a-vis the setup?
    Two of the four wolves were on romanov, but one, Phighter voted him in the first 100 posts and Collector Elwood, voted him in response to the cop claim and redcheck on himself, so he obviously had reasons for staying on.

    romanov's wagon was a full ten people at one point (no majority on D1) and none of the voters on him were wolves after a very early point in the game, he did initially pick up steam through mafia influence. So my thinking is, without having gone back in after researching a week or two ago, that the mafia for the most part stayed away once he took off.

    Vote history for reference
    very interesting

    will read 9 thru 1 at work tomorrow (easy day)

  16. ISO #16
    Fair enough DaveDob's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    First of all I want to say good article GH. As much as this was a meme come to life, this does show what we can learn from even the most tragic of situations rather than just beat yourself over the head with it and learn nothing.

    Second thing is a question. In going through this list and reading through the lynches, how much of this was placed on just Town complacencies vs. just plain bad town play? I feel like reading the article again I can probably answer my own question but based on my interpretation most of it was “one guy does a bad and the rest of town just goes fine sure whatever” rather than town as a collective making actively bad plays.
    “DaveDob is the best player in the zoom” -Manti 2018

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  17. ISO #17
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    The Ten Worst Mislynches in Champs History and How to Avoid Them
    Step 1: Rand Wolf
    Step 2: Realize the playerlist is actually competent
    Step 3: Die a little more inside
    Life is simply unfair... don't you think?
    http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=mhsmith0

    BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me

  18. ISO #18
    Season 5 Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveDob (#16)
    First of all I want to say good article GH. As much as this was a meme come to life, this does show what we can learn from even the most tragic of situations rather than just beat yourself over the head with it and learn nothing.

    Second thing is a question. In going through this list and reading through the lynches, how much of this was placed on just Town complacencies vs. just plain bad town play? I feel like reading the article again I can probably answer my own question but based on my interpretation most of it was “one guy does a bad and the rest of town just goes fine sure whatever” rather than town as a collective making actively bad plays.
    Well, first of all, I think that for the most part, these lynches were all combinations of the two. You had bad town play to kick things off a lot of the time, and aside from the Linkcat and potentially Apoc examples, you had town complacency there to finish it off. The two work in a perverted sort of synchronicity to really combine together to make this list - you generally don't see universal bad town play very much, and town complacency on its own isn't enough to crack the top ten.

    All that said, in the course of my research and writing this article, town complacency definitely played a lot bigger of a role than I imagined it would have, so you're probably onto something. It plays a part into something I really tried to hammer home in the article itself and included in one of the cliffs: It really does take a village to make a bad mislynch.

    The one lesson I most want to get through to everybody, the single most important thing people should take out of the entire mammoth of an article, is that it is not enough to simply not be the main pusher of a bad wagon, nor is it even to not be on the wagon at all. You have to do more. You can't just watch the train crash from a safe distance. If you're not busting your $%#! in the thread actively trying to stop something you deem is bad, you're not doing enough as a villager to help win the game for your alignment.
    Lenny - Today at 10:08 AM
    Atpg sometimes the paragraphs you write are pretty good


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  19. ISO #19
    Soul Reader OrangeP47's Avatar
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    Oh man, what an article. Champs really do provide some good mislynches.

    That Linkcat one in particular, Sorian wasn't even on the train!

    Season 6 sure did provide a lot of good ones too. I watched the tartina one live but tbh it didn't really sink in just how utterly bad it was until you explained it here. It should be memorialized just as much as 1610 should. That game deserves it's own article, or at least a gold fringe. As for Apoc, I simply have no words.

    As for #2 though.... I have to say... I actually find that super hilarious because Awaclus reminds me of someone from my homesite and I just *have* to show this to him now. I've been trying to get him as our Champs rep for years but he's too shy around new people to even come over here anymore unfortunately. (He isn't an anti-info player like that, but he has some... "interesting" logic he employs).

    Also shoutout to my lynch last season, which I'm still kinda salty about, but at the time hit me so hard I developed temporary Stockholm Syndrome.

  20. ISO #20
    Too bad the newcomb mislynch wasn't an official champs game

  21. ISO #21
    cuts ribs wearing wolf Angrypotato's Avatar
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    Before I read the article, I knew that I would make the list lmao.


    Welp

    Gentlemen, you have fought like lions and been led by donkeys. - Erwin Rommel

  22. ISO #22
    Thread Analyst -Rosen's Avatar
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    As someone who benefited greatly from the G11 I N F O L Y N C H, I absolutely refuse to not I N F O L Y N C H
    Last edited by -Rosen; April 28th, 2020 at 08:22 AM.

  23. ISO #23
    five people have died Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    lmao, what an amazing topic

  24. ISO #24
    five people have died Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#1)
    Archangel was wavering but her paranoia put her on Apoc. sothys wasn't sure of who to lynch between the two.
    Some relevant history is the Sukilimas Mafia Game where Wolf!Apoc beat Town!Archangel in LYLO (with ArchAngel casting the losing vote).


    ArchAngel apparently learned to never let Apoc best her in a game of werewolf...

    But did not learn the important lesson of TEAMWORK...losing both games in exactly the same manner (casting a selfish vote at LYLO instead of following her living and dead teammates)



    Them not sheeping my read the next day phase is worse than them lynching me.

    Definitely not still salty
    Last edited by Apoc; April 28th, 2020 at 09:16 AM.

  25. ISO #25
    1610 roro__b's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#23)



    lmao, what an amazing topic
    you did it daddy
    1610

  26. ISO #26
    Everyone's mom...except Roro__b's dyachei's Avatar Head Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#20)
    Too bad the newcomb mislynch wasn't an official champs game
    or the mislynch of thingy when he was a peeked villa?
    Yes I am offcially more annoying than navi. Misson accomplished. - Fable

    i have deep seated lust for villager from animal crossing - Cory

  27. ISO #27
    five people have died Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by dyachei (#26)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#20)
    Too bad the newcomb mislynch wasn't an official champs game
    or the mislynch of thingy when he was a peeked villa?
    or the non-lynch of thingy when he was a peeked wolf



    I think people should just never peek thingy, what's the point!?

  28. ISO #28
    #BetterThanYou

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    The Sooh lynch is the worst thing I've ever seen in mafia history and is the sole reason I participated in champs.

  29. ISO #29
    The Self Narrator Owner Of A Lonely Heart's Avatar
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    I read most of it. I don't know what to say in response though. I can think of games where I've been scum, and town should have been able to avoid the mislynch. But I don't know if any of them reach this scale.

  30. ISO #30
    five people have died Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris (#28)
    The Sooh lynch is the worst thing I've ever seen in mafia history and is the sole reason I participated in champs.
    "mafia communities against each other as they compete to determine the internet's greatest forum mafia player."

    Good thing awaklus was in the contest or it might have lost all credibility

  31. ISO #31
    Soul Reader OrangeP47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#30)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris (#28)
    The Sooh lynch is the worst thing I've ever seen in mafia history and is the sole reason I participated in champs.
    "mafia communities against each other as they compete to determine the internet's greatest forum mafia player."

    Good thing awaklus was in the contest or it might have lost all credibility
    No seriously, is he still around these fourms? (I guess probably not). I feel like I have to meet the legend.

  32. ISO #32
    Galaxy Brain Phighter's Avatar
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    That moment when the first game you ever played on Mafia Universe is the first example.

    If I could have those NKs back, man...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#233)
    So here's the deal, Champ.

    1. Phighter's $%#!ing with you.


  33. ISO #33
    BOOM BYE TOWN Poyser's Avatar
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    Boom bye scum was a decent one as well
    Last edited by Poyser; May 1st, 2020 at 02:22 AM.

  34. ISO #34
    Wielder of the Triforce Wisdom's Avatar
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    I'm... Amazed. Great article, GH!

    #1 goal for Champs: Don't tinfoil.
    #2 goal for Champs: Don't give specchat a reason to flame you.
    PunchyTheCat: WHAT TEH ACTUAL $%#!ING WHAT THE ACTUAL WHAT WHO LET THIS HAPPEN WHY WISDOM WAS SOOOO TOWNY WTF

    Chloe: I'm never trusting you again Wisdom

  35. ISO #35
    1610 mendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisdom (#34)
    #2 goal for Champs: Don't give specchat a reason to flame you.
    If you play considering spec-chat at all (which maybe you shouldn't), play to give them a spectacle.
    When it comes down to it, in the end we play these games for entertainment.
    Finding out who you are is important.
    How to slank in Mafia games -- share your experiences!

  36. ISO #36
    1610 roro__b's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#35)
    Quote Originally Posted by Wisdom (#34)
    #2 goal for Champs: Don't give specchat a reason to flame you.
    If you play considering spec-chat at all (which maybe you shouldn't), play to give them a spectacle.
    When it comes down to it, in the end we play these games for entertainment.
    And spec chat will always fin a way to flame tbh
    1610

  37. ISO #37
    Soul Reader Master Radishes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roro__b (#36)
    Quote Originally Posted by mendel (#35)
    Quote Originally Posted by Wisdom (#34)
    #2 goal for Champs: Don't give specchat a reason to flame you.
    If you play considering spec-chat at all (which maybe you shouldn't), play to give them a spectacle.
    When it comes down to it, in the end we play these games for entertainment.
    And spec chat will always fin a way to flame tbh
    If spec chat isn't flaming you at some point you're playing wrong.

  38. ISO #38
    Thread Analyst cayvie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeP47 (#31)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#30)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris (#28)
    The Sooh lynch is the worst thing I've ever seen in mafia history and is the sole reason I participated in champs.
    "mafia communities against each other as they compete to determine the internet's greatest forum mafia player."

    Good thing awaklus was in the contest or it might have lost all credibility
    No seriously, is he still around these fourms? (I guess probably not). I feel like I have to meet the legend.
    if you want the genuine awaclus experience you gotta join us at the dominion strategy forums

  39. ISO #39
    Bandwagoner leetic's Avatar
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    I've been through quite a few bad mislynches myself, but being mislynched 7-2 when I was the unCC'd cop has to take the cake.

  40. ISO #40
    1610 mendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leetic (#39)
    I've been through quite a few bad mislynches myself, but being mislynched 7-2 when I was the unCC'd cop has to take the cake.
    "Let's lynch the guy who got cleared by the un-counterclaimed cop, if they flip red we'll know the cop is scum"
    Finding out who you are is important.
    How to slank in Mafia games -- share your experiences!

  41. ISO #41
    five people have died Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    "Let's lynch the un'CCd cop who outted the wolves with a fake cop claim before leaving their real peek, if they flip green we'll know they are a villager"
    Last edited by Apoc; May 4th, 2020 at 06:17 AM.

  42. ISO #42
    I finally got around to reading #9 and #8 and those are awesome examples. This thread should be mandatory reading for any player. Working on #7 tomorrow.

  43. ISO #43
    Am I making you nervous? MarkoRaj's Avatar
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    Great thread GH

    Good insight on every one of them

    Would be interesting to do the top 10 best lynches for comparison
    I simply am not there

  44. ISO #44
    pfft pfft pfft moth's Avatar
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    great article. I am suprised my hammer of poyser wasnt rated in the top 10. boom bye scum
    I arrive on a chariot drawn by more chariots

  45. ISO #45
    pfft pfft pfft moth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poyser (#33)
    Boom bye scum was a decent one as well
    sigh
    I arrive on a chariot drawn by more chariots

  46. ISO #46
    Queen of MU SpankGangsta's Avatar
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    Apoc kekw

    Should make a top 10 worst vig kills of all time

    Benneh vig shot should be #1
    I owe Takhitty ?200 for my gambling addiction
    I owe Takhitty ?200 for my gambling addiction
    I owe Takhitty ?200 for my gambling addiction
    I owe Takhitty ?200 for my gambling addiction
    I owe Takhitty ?200 for my gambling addiction

  47. ISO #47
    Banned

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  48. ISO #48
    Galaxy Brain Phighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankGangsta (#46)
    Romanov pepehands
    Apoc kekw

    Should make a top 10 worst vig kills of all time

    Benneh vig shot should be #1
    Lol the vig shot was so bad that we kept accidentally spewing ourselves by trying to suggest it wasn't the NK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#233)
    So here's the deal, Champ.

    1. Phighter's $%#!ing with you.


  49. ISO #49
    BOOM BYE TOWN Poyser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#45)
    Quote Originally Posted by Poyser (#33)
    Boom bye scum was a decent one as well
    sigh
    Always enjoy the meme, that was the very first mafia game that I started playing seriously. Before that I’d just coast and barely post. That game I put a $%#! tonne of effort in and it was a great experienced. I’ve improved so much in the years since. Hope you’re doing well!

  50. ISO #50
    pfft pfft pfft moth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poyser (#49)
    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#45)
    Quote Originally Posted by Poyser (#33)
    Boom bye scum was a decent one as well
    sigh
    Always enjoy the meme, that was the very first mafia game that I started playing seriously. Before that I’d just coast and barely post. That game I put a $%#! tonne of effort in and it was a great experienced. I’ve improved so much in the years since. Hope you’re doing well!
    absolutely. I would love to think ive improved too. good to see you still playin
    I arrive on a chariot drawn by more chariots

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