Results 1 to 31 of 31

Thread: Open Setup: Introducing: The Inkpack

  1. ISO #1

    Open Setup: Introducing: The Inkpack

    I would like to introduce a new role to the world of setup design. This role, i think, has potential to be used in all sorts of setups and is great fun besides. A long time ago i ran a large Role Madness that involved a great deal of experimental concepts; this one proved the most popular. The inspiration came from a thousand-page thread of idle role ideas on MafiaScum, but as far as i know, no one else has ever used it but me.

    So -- introducing -- the 'inkpack'. The inkpack is Mafia-aligned. The inkpack has no actions. The inkpack has one effect: When the inkpack is lynched, all players currently voting for the inkpack are 'stained' -- for the rest of the game, those players will inspect as 'Mafia' to cops. Or, in other words, all players who contribute to lynching the inkster become Millers. in effect, it becomes useless to check them.

    [The name 'inkpack' is still up for debate. Other proposed names: 'inkpack,' 'painter,' 'outcast'. The original game was themed so that the 'stain' was a 'curse' and the role was named 'witch-king'.]

    The inkpack concept has a few interesting points in its favor:

    * The inkpack nerfs the role of the cop without having to lie to the cop with a Miller or Godfather.
    * The inkpack gives scum an incentive to bus the inkpack -- games can flounder when scum don't get lynched fast enough.
    * The inkpack introduces a fun level of wifom -- did X lynch the inkpack because X is town, or because X is scum and can't get checked now?
    * The inkpack has to play to maximize the reward: Who is on the wagon when this goes off? Should i self-hammer or wait to get one more vote?

    When i ran this role it was a huge hit, the inkpack had all the fun of being the jester and the town had a terrific time working through all the levels of wifom.

    All the role needs now is a setup -- something that's simple enough so that the inkpack is the star, without being too simple. Want an open setup so that it can be tried again, i think it's a fun role and would love for other hosts to steal it.

    For a first run, i think this setup needs at least 3 scum -- with 2 scum i think it would cost too much for the scum to bus, and there's a larger risk that the inkpack is the last scum, which would defeat the whole purpose of the role.

    Of course there needs to be a cop. But this will be controversial -- i think there should be 2 cops. That means the scum can't eliminate the pressure to bus the inkpack just through luck on the kill. if there's just 1 cop and cop dies before the inkpack does -- that's no fun.

    So then the question becomes about how to balance two cops. i have two ideas:

    1) Cops cannot check on consecutive nights. Each cop gets even or odd. The choice is left to each cop -- so that when the claims come one can't claim 'the even cop' while the other claims 'the odd cop'. This also makes the cop decision a little harder -- Do i check on N1, when the game is larger and the check is weaker, or do i hold out until N2 and hope we don't get the inkpack D2?

    2) Cops are also millers -- so cop luck can't cause one cop to clear the other. Wouldn't happen all that often, but it would be game-stacking if it did. Of course, this might go against the spirit of the inkpack a little bit... Also possible that even if one cop cleared the other, with the consecutive night rule both would get killed before more checks could come through. Thoughts?


    So, here's the setup i'm thinking of:

    * 2 Mafia Goons
    * 1 Mafia inkpack

    * 2 Non-consecutive Cops
    * 8 Vanilla Townies

    13p "feels right," the numbers are a little scum-skewed but with 2 cops and the incentive to bus the inkpack, i think that's fair. Could also hear an argument for 15p. Could also hear an argument for giving the cops the option to inspect N0 -- right now that seems wrong. Since the inkpack and cop are the main mechanics, don't want to introduce other mechanics like docs.

    Thoughts? Please share. Would appreciate feedback, tell me i'm stupid, wrong, smell bad, etc. Would like to run this setup in a few weeks or so whenever there's a gap in the schedule.

  2. ISO #2
    IKEA Aquilla's Avatar Game Manager
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    High in the Sky
    Posts
    14,536
    Community
    Daily Mafia
    Gender
    initial thoughts are cool role, but hard to use in a small game. The blocking of alignment cops permanently is useful but all the cop has to do is just not check among the people who have been ink blotted. It's more of an inconvenience than true game changer.

    In regards to the proposed setup, the cops will still run away with the game more often. After a first mafia death (which has to occur for the inkpack to go off) it's just as good if not better to go after green checks in comparison to red checks. Unless the inkpack becomes a runaway wagon and blots most of the game, (as well as probably needing to always be the first mafia dead which won't happen enough to compensate).

    I think a 17'er with an 4 mafia and the proposed roles sounds better, gives more maneuverability for the mafia to hide/inkblot to go off.

  3. ISO #3
    The CEO Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Sharing opinions nobody asked for
    Posts
    39,863
    Gender
    This is pretty awesome.

    Wolves vote their buddy and they have plausible deniability, bussing cred, and cannot be traded 1-for-1 with the cop anymore.

    And it adds a new layer of WIFOM and TMI to the game (where wolves know they need to bus this dude and villagers dont).



    I can definitely see this getting used!

    Most counters to cops suck, but this one seems pretty interesting and nobody has to feel bad in postgame (like with millers/godfathers)
    Last edited by Apoc; April 30th, 2020 at 07:24 PM.

  4. ISO #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquilla (#2)
    initial thoughts are cool role, but hard to use in a small game. The blocking of alignment cops permanently is useful but all the cop has to do is just not check among the people who have been ink blotted. It's more of an inconvenience than true game changer.
    Right, but figure that hammer means half + 1, so the pool of cop checks gets cut in half. Scum can then decide to kill from the pool of those who can still be cleared, or not. [This gives scum better kill control than just going for the good townies or hitting cop at random.]

    In regards to the proposed setup, the cops will still run away with the game more often. After a first mafia death (which has to occur for the inkpack to go off) it's just as good if not better to go after green checks in comparison to red checks. Unless the inkpack becomes a runaway wagon and blots most of the game, (as well as probably needing to always be the first mafia dead which won't happen enough to compensate).
    i don't think it's perfect, but the cop is in some sense broken at the fundamentals because its power to clear is strong. Cop is also just too fun to give up on it. Cop9 is considered balanced, without nerfing the cop at all, so i think adding the inkpack and tweaking the balance / ratios a little could be just as balanced.

    Would it make a difference if the inksplat wasn't a role but something that happened the first time scum was voted out, no matter who the scum was?

    I think a 17'er with an 4 mafia and the proposed roles sounds better, gives more maneuverability for the mafia to hide/inkblot to go off.
    i want to keep the setup as small as possible and still balanced, but i take ur point. i could run one smaller setup and one larger setup based around the same role. So if i did a larger one, what would u suggest? One inksplat or two? Would u add something else to that setup?

  5. ISO #5
    One other thought -- the inksplat could be chosen instead of assigned. At the beginning of the game after scum have been randed, the scum team chooses one scum to be the inksplat for the rest of the game. So no scum is 'forced' to be inksplat, whoever becomes the inksplat chose at the start of the game to be bussed. This would prevent scum from feeling cheated because the 'best' scum has to be bussed while someone else who's not as confident has to be the one to make it to endgame.

  6. ISO #6
    Was digging around on MS and found the creator of this role in this discussion: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopi...911&start=1025

    "Miller Bomb"? Feel like the "Bomb" language means something else but could accept it as a role name. Do not ever remember using "Framer" as the role name here, that would be wrong since Framer means something else.

  7. ISO #7
    GOAT Tier bearsquared's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    15,820
    Timezone
    UTC-05:00
    Community
    MiniMafia
    Gender
    It feels somewhat Jester-y in the sense that it can make the lynch weird or make town not want to lynch the wolf which is always weird. It probably would work in a closed setup though, but my guess is it would be kinda ass in an open one.

  8. ISO #8
    The CEO Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Sharing opinions nobody asked for
    Posts
    39,863
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#7)
    It feels somewhat Jester-y in the sense that it can make the lynch weird or make town not want to lynch the wolf which is always weird. It probably would work in a closed setup though, but my guess is it would be kinda ass in an open one.


    Nah

  9. ISO #9
    "Beer Flu Mafia" has just ended with a scum victory: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...eer-Flu-Mafia/

    This was the final setup (a slight simplification from what was discussed above):

    SPLAT!
    * 3 Mafia "Miller Inkbombs"
    * 1 Town Cop
    * 1 Backup Cop
    * 8 Vanilla Townies

    * No N0
    * Backup Cop does not inherit Cop's results

    The idea of alternating cops was condensed into a cop and a backup, which achieves much the same thing. The Inkpack-as-equip idea was changed into just making all three scum inkbombs, which gave them more flexibility in how to bus.

    I have chosen to name the role "Inkbomb," which I think is a cleaner image of what the role does, while still keeps the convenient link to the image of "staining" with ink. I would call this particular inkbomb a "miller inkbomb" -- it stains its targets with the "miller" modifier. I think the inkbomb concept could extend well to any results that confounds an investigative role. I.e., a variant of this setup could be hosted with rolecops, in which a "Vanilla Inkbomb" causes power roles to investigate as vanilla, or a "Rolecop Inkbomb" causes players to investigate as Rolecops, etc. etc.

    I have named the setup "SPLAT" because it's a fun word and will lend itself to variant names as I make them.

    Overall I thought the setup worked; even though scum won I think the setup was slightly town-sided. Aquilla was probably right about the cops running away with it; Kokoro Mitsume pointed out to me that with the cop generating clears every night the scum were quickly running out of mislynches. In this case it worked -- the backup cop got killed N2 and the cop N3. But in practice I would make the Backup Cop hidden -- he doesn't know he is backup and thus cannot claim and clear. I had thought this would be considered bastard but several people told me this was somewhat standard.

    One thing I hadn't considered (but could have) was that the cop checked several players before they got stained by the inkbomb. This diluted the power of the role somewhat, because the cop already had green checks on several stained players. But I don't think this is a big check on the inkpack's power -- living green checks give the scum an excuse as to why they haven't been killed yet.

    One other thing I hadn't anticipated was that town chose to counter the inkbomb by limiting wagon formation. I don't think this strategy was very effective -- it prevented more players from getting stained but prevented town from properly analyzing wagons in future phases. Although my goal here is not to dissect the play in this one game, I think that proved decisive in the end. There was some discussion about this in spec chat, but I actually think this is a good thing -- organizing play to rely on the cop role actually punishes town's ability to gather information. I think that's a reasonable trade-off that successfully balances the cop without nerfing it completely.

    Overall I'm satisfied and plan to host another game with this concept as soon as possible.

  10. ISO #10
    So, here's the base setup:

    SPLAT
    * 3 Mafia "Miller Inkbombs"
    * 1 Town Cop
    * 1 Backup Cop
    * 8 Vanilla Townies

    * No N0
    * Backup Cop does not inherit Cop's results
    * Backup Cop does not know he is backup (but flips as backup)
    Here are two proposed variants I would like to consider running in future:

    SPLIT
    * 1 Mafia "Miller Inkbomb"
    * 1 Mafia Goon
    * 1 Mafia Godfather
    * 1 Town Cop
    * 1 Backup Cop
    * 8 Vanilla Townies

    * No N0
    * Backup Cop does not inherit Cop's results
    * Backup Cop does not know he is backup (but flips as backup)
    Here, the scum team's ability to coordinate the bus is reduced because there's only one inkpack. They have a Godfather and a Goon they would gain no value from bussing. To compensate, the Godfather, of course, reduces the power of the green check. I think I mostly agree with Apoc (from other threads) that the Godfather is a role that causes problems and is not usually fun to play with -- it's not a good role. But I think this would be "balanced" and if I had to include a Godfather with the concept this is how I would do it. Because the Godfather is somewhat controversial and the scumteam's power is somewhat divided, I've named this concept "SPLIT".

    SPLICE
    * 1 Mafia Rolecop
    * 1 Mafia Universal Backup
    * 1 Mafia "Rolecop Inkbomb"
    * 1 Town Rolecop
    * 1 Town Backup Rolecop
    * 8 Vanilla Townies

    * No N0
    * Backup Cop does not inherit Cop's results
    * Backup Cop does not know he is backup (but flips/inspects as backup)
    This one's more of a work in progress -- it's a little more complicated. The goal is to try the inkbomb role on something other than cop. I think Rolecop is the natural extension, and giving a Rolecop to the Mafia was one of the proposed methods of increasing scum power relative to the town. The idea here is that the inkbomb spills "Rolecop ink," which makes his targets inspect as "Rolecops" instead of "Vanilla". Here the Mafia roles basically all equate to "Guilty" since most town would inspect as "Vanilla," so there's still incentive for them to bus for an excuse to avoid being checked. I could also consider making the Town Backup Rolecop a full Rolecop -- this would make it much easier for Town to get green checks, but with a Mafia Rolecop the scum get two chances a night to identify other Rolecops. A complicating factor here is that, if Scum is hunting for Rolecops, the Inkbomb can hurt scum (though not as much as it hurts town). I think this is an interesting idea worth developing a setup around. I am currently naming this variant "SPLICE" for the image of splicing DNA in a test tube to try to identify something (which is what a Role Cop might conceivably do).

  11. ISO #11
    By the way -- other potential names here include "splotch," "splay," "splash," "splint," "spline," and "splud". I intend to keep designing small setups around this role until I've exhausted the variety of names or until no one will play them anymore.

  12. ISO #12
    Level 7 Master Mew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Nugget Bridge
    Posts
    182
    Community
    Bulbagarden / MafiaScum / Epic Mafia
    I think one thing that game demonstrates is that this role would be more effective with majority lynch rules (town's strategy here was to plurality lynch with as few voters as possible to neuter the ink bomb).

    Scum won anyway, though, so it still works!

    (Also, I demand consulting credit) :P

  13. ISO #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Mew (#12)
    I think one thing that game demonstrates is that this role would be more effective with majority lynch rules (town's strategy here was to plurality lynch with as few voters as possible to neuter the ink bomb).

    Scum won anyway, though, so it still works!

    (Also, I demand consulting credit) :P
    I think town's strategy here backfired because the lack of votes meant it was much harder to analyze patterns. D1/D2 are the most important for later days to read back on and look for patterns, and those days were empty when town tried to no-vote to avoid the stain.

    Inkbomb with majority rules would be fun I think, I'm just not sure how common Majority Lynch as a requirement would be here.

    (Your royalty check is in the mail.)

  14. ISO #14
    Level 7 Master Mew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Nugget Bridge
    Posts
    182
    Community
    Bulbagarden / MafiaScum / Epic Mafia
    I wonder if Inkbomb would work well as a role in a Semi-Open setup, as part of a pool of potential scum roles.

    This introduces all the bussing speculation of Inkbomb with none of the certainty (until it flips, that is).

  15. ISO #15
    Could be very interesting, granted that structure of the semi-open setup is good even without the inkbomb. The standard for semi-open is a matrix or equivalent shape. Setups based on rolling dice or flipping coins to math out the distribution of power roles don't seem to be as successful. It's also worth considering that an inkbomb grants scum no extra night powers, and is really only a useful counter against investigative roles. (The inkbomb could grant other modifiers, say, "macho" (which prevents targets from being protected by the doctor), it's not a bad concept, but it kind of loses some of its complexity when there's no real reason for the scum to bus it.)

    I also wonder how / if inkbomb would play with a vig. A vig would be the great counter to an inkbomb, since it would bypass all the voting and modifiers. But not many setups could support a vig and an investigative role strong enough to get nerfed by an inkbomb.
    Last edited by Phoenicks; May 22nd, 2020 at 11:44 PM.

  16. ISO #16
    The CEO Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Sharing opinions nobody asked for
    Posts
    39,863
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenicks (#9)
    I have chosen to name the role "Inkbomb,"
    millerbomb though...

  17. ISO #17
    The CEO Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Sharing opinions nobody asked for
    Posts
    39,863
    Gender
    Adding a back-up cops seems to undermine the whole point of weaking the cop

    Have you thought about returning the n0 and remove the back-up?


    I feel like the back-up adds a lot of value in a game size of 13 (unless ofc he gets randomly killed before backing up).
    Last edited by Apoc; May 23rd, 2020 at 06:59 AM.

  18. ISO #18
    Bandwagoner Adrest's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    Once upon a fairy tale
    Posts
    82
    Timezone
    UTC+01:00
    Community
    PokeCommunity
    Pronouns
    they/them/their/theirs/themself
    Gender
    i think this is a cool role, i really enjoyed the SPLAT set up
    hopefully itll be used more in the future

  19. ISO #19
    Spaceship, spaceship, SPACESHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Logic's Avatar Discord Moderator
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Space
    Posts
    5,526
    Timezone
    UTC-08:00
    Community
    Giant in the Playground
    AKA
    Yakostovian, Spacecamp, Planet-Man
    Gender
    The while time playing beer flu, I was thinking the role should be named "Mafia Squid"
    Quote Originally Posted by Mercedes (#2248)
    Man, Logic is hitting hard left and wrong
    Quote Originally Posted by bbt (#101)
    gdi Logic now I have some random-ass document in my phone downloads

  20. ISO #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Logic (#19)
    The while time playing beer flu, I was thinking the role should be named "Mafia Squid"
    Funny, MM suggested the same name and wanted to name my setup "Fried Calamari". I won't use "squid" myself, but I won't discourage anyone who wants to call it that. "Inkbomb" works but is a little over-designed.

  21. ISO #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#17)
    Adding a back-up cops seems to undermine the whole point of weaking the cop

    Have you thought about returning the n0 and remove the back-up?


    I feel like the back-up adds a lot of value in a game size of 13 (unless ofc he gets randomly killed before backing up).
    The goal was to make sure the interaction got used -- wouldn't want to go to all the trouble and then the cop dies N1 in the trial game. But over the course of play I came to feel that the setup was relatively balanced, a little town-sided if the backup cop can claim and clear. Without the backup cop the setup would be Cop13 with an inkbomb -- I'm not sure if Cop13 needs to be adjusted toward scum or not. It probably wouldn't hurt, or make a huge difference. But maybe you're right and this is worth trying.

    I think the easier call is to have the cop/backup and give scum a rolecop, so they're more likely to figure out the kills they need. But there's still a moment of key vulnerability where the inkbomb looks like a good bus. I think I will try a setup like this first -- but anyone is free to run their own setup with this role, I'd be happy to see it.

  22. ISO #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#17)
    Adding a back-up cops seems to undermine the whole point of weaking the cop

    Have you thought about returning the n0 and remove the back-up?


    I feel like the back-up adds a lot of value in a game size of 13 (unless ofc he gets randomly killed before backing up).
    I said the same thing in the DVC.

    Dealing with 2 cops plus any clears they may bring makes the game easy to be locked. The main reason the wolves in that match managed to not get mech-locked was because the cop and backup were obvious while the cop decided to peek a consensus villager n1.
    Last edited by Kokoro Mitsume; May 23rd, 2020 at 04:54 PM.

  23. ISO #23
    The CEO Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Sharing opinions nobody asked for
    Posts
    39,863
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenicks (#21)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#17)
    Adding a back-up cops seems to undermine the whole point of weaking the cop

    Have you thought about returning the n0 and remove the back-up?


    I feel like the back-up adds a lot of value in a game size of 13 (unless ofc he gets randomly killed before backing up).
    The goal was to make sure the interaction got used -- wouldn't want to go to all the trouble and then the cop dies N1 in the trial game. But over the course of play I came to feel that the setup was relatively balanced, a little town-sided if the backup cop can claim and clear. Without the backup cop the setup would be Cop13 with an inkbomb -- I'm not sure if Cop13 needs to be adjusted toward scum or not. It probably wouldn't hurt, or make a huge difference. But maybe you're right and this is worth trying.

    I think the easier call is to have the cop/backup and give scum a rolecop, so they're more likely to figure out the kills they need. But there's still a moment of key vulnerability where the inkbomb looks like a good bus. I think I will try a setup like this first -- but anyone is free to run their own setup with this role, I'd be happy to see it.
    hehe, that's fair enough i guess!

  24. ISO #24
    The CEO Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Sharing opinions nobody asked for
    Posts
    39,863
    Gender
    As far as whether Cop 13er's actually need adjusting...I know @mhsmith0 has a lot of stats on this

    Depending on the site you probably don't need to add an inkpack to a Cop 13er, but it's a really cool option imo for games where you know town is going to be strong favourites because of site meta or personal meta or whatever
    Last edited by Apoc; May 24th, 2020 at 03:32 PM.

  25. ISO #25
    Level 7 Master Mew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Nugget Bridge
    Posts
    182
    Community
    Bulbagarden / MafiaScum / Epic Mafia
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenicks (#15)
    The standard for semi-open is a matrix or equivalent shape. Setups based on rolling dice or flipping coins to math out the distribution of power roles don't seem to be as successful.
    You know 2of4 is one of my favorite setups, you snarky bastard.

  26. ISO #26
    Level 7 Master Mew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Nugget Bridge
    Posts
    182
    Community
    Bulbagarden / MafiaScum / Epic Mafia
    Note: It should be stated that, when balancing this setup, we did not account for the Cop faking a guilty on an innocent check.

  27. ISO #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Mew (#26)
    Note: It should be stated that, when balancing this setup, we did not account for the Cop faking a guilty on an innocent check.
    I think the worst part about d3 there was having a wolf slip TMI that the check was fake, the village noticing it, and then proceeding to ML the N1 SPK's strongest village read who was an obvious villa that match with the aforementioned wolf endgaming after a villager snap-voted in LyLo.

  28. ISO #28
    Level 7 Master Mew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Nugget Bridge
    Posts
    182
    Community
    Bulbagarden / MafiaScum / Epic Mafia
    I was rolling.

  29. ISO #29
    Low Hanging Fruit LordQuas's Avatar Game Manager
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    14,744
    Timezone
    UTC-08:00
    Gender
    super late to the party but it feels optimal for wolves to hard bus and get as many people to vote the inkpack d1
    :wiwe

  30. ISO #30
    Add a modified joat that only has one action(total) maybe?

  31. ISO #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Crunch (#30)
    Add a modified joat that only has one action(total) maybe?
    What kind of powers would you have in mind?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Keyboard Shortcuts

about us
Mafia Universe is a community hub for people who enjoy playing the forum variant of Mafia (also known as Werewolf). We offer fully automated Mafia games and a wide variety of customized features crafted to optimize your game experience. We also proudly host the Internet's only database of Mafia/Werewolf communities.

We hope you stick around!
Role of the Day
Mugger

The Mugger is a mafia-aligned player that will gain the ability of any player killed by the mafia if they are the one carrying out the kill. The gained ability can be used only once by the Mugger on any future night, but the Mugger cannot kill and use a gained ability on the same night.