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Thread: Season 7, Game 5: WARPLANES [The Mafia Championship] Night 6
Night 6 

  1. ISO #1501
    Bandwagoner wikkiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capage (#1495)
    Quote Originally Posted by Violet (#1493)
    Quote Originally Posted by Capage (#1490)
    Quote Originally Posted by Violet (#1482)
    Has anyone given any proper wolf motivation for Prag or is it just that lhf that is getting him lynched?
    No, it's more like lack of proper town motivation. The only one really gunning for that slot is Wikki and that could be just proper wolf motivation.
    I hoped to get little more from Prag to either confirm his wolfiness or to discover his towniness, but I guess it's not an ideal lynch.
    But will you get the most of the lynch infowise by targeting Prag?
    Probably not. I would get info on wikki and other Prag voters.
    But if we lynch wikki we get a lot more info on Prag and CK and GCE.
    If we lynch CK, I'm actually not sure about info value of that as CK cases were all around the place from reasonable to pure tinfoil (Aer). I think we get a lot of info if CK flips scum, but I'm not so sure about that and him flipping town just leaves us with many suspects.

    So, I guess it's time to move my vote again

    ##Vote wikkiden
    What information do you get on prag and CK and GCE when I flip town? I understand your argument that if I flip scum you could maybe WIFOM some stuff about bussing prag, CK looks a lot scummier because I've been kind of diverting attention from them, and GCE and I have been a bit buddy-buddy with our reads of each other, that all makes sense. But I'd like to know what you intend to learn when I flip town, if you're arguing to lynch me from an info perspective.

  2. ISO #1502
    Thread Analyst GCEDW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CerealKiller (#1478)
    I get that ASmiller is an extremely low info lynch, but if they keep behaving the way they have, what purpose do they serve? Anyway, i'm open to keeping them alive for another day.
    ##Unvote #ASmiller
    My take on Motherhen/ASmiller: They have said nothing that has been useful to the game and have attempted pretty much 0 scumhunting. That is obvious on its head. What does that mean though? A few things. First, if they are scum, obviously they will never die at night and if they are town, again the scum wouldn't waste a night kill on this type of player. It is either an easy mislynch for the scum, or an unprovable by "typical" evidence scum. Either way, the scum wins with a player like ASmiller, its almost like having an extra scum if in fact they are town, since they do nothing in terms of reads, thoughts, questions, etc. I'm sorry, but if ASmiller is scum or town, it doesn't matter, its a sad way to play, since it lacks any substance for anyone who is actually trying.

  3. ISO #1503
    GOAT Tier Capage's Avatar
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    Btw I had an EOD gif ready, but I have to leave you soon to spend some time with my frends. I'll try to peek in at least.


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    GOAT Tier Capage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1501)
    Quote Originally Posted by Capage (#1495)
    Quote Originally Posted by Violet (#1493)
    Quote Originally Posted by Capage (#1490)
    No, it's more like lack of proper town motivation. The only one really gunning for that slot is Wikki and that could be just proper wolf motivation.
    I hoped to get little more from Prag to either confirm his wolfiness or to discover his towniness, but I guess it's not an ideal lynch.
    But will you get the most of the lynch infowise by targeting Prag?
    Probably not. I would get info on wikki and other Prag voters.
    But if we lynch wikki we get a lot more info on Prag and CK and GCE.
    If we lynch CK, I'm actually not sure about info value of that as CK cases were all around the place from reasonable to pure tinfoil (Aer). I think we get a lot of info if CK flips scum, but I'm not so sure about that and him flipping town just leaves us with many suspects.

    So, I guess it's time to move my vote again

    ##Vote wikkiden
    What information do you get on prag and CK and GCE when I flip town? I understand your argument that if I flip scum you could maybe WIFOM some stuff about bussing prag, CK looks a lot scummier because I've been kind of diverting attention from them, and GCE and I have been a bit buddy-buddy with our reads of each other, that all makes sense. But I'd like to know what you intend to learn when I flip town, if you're arguing to lynch me from an info perspective.
    That your reads were real. I think it will make Prag lock mafia too. That point you raised was good. I doubt you flip town, tho.

  5. ISO #1505
    Thread Analyst GCEDW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1501)
    Quote Originally Posted by Capage (#1495)
    Quote Originally Posted by Violet (#1493)
    Quote Originally Posted by Capage (#1490)
    No, it's more like lack of proper town motivation. The only one really gunning for that slot is Wikki and that could be just proper wolf motivation.
    I hoped to get little more from Prag to either confirm his wolfiness or to discover his towniness, but I guess it's not an ideal lynch.
    But will you get the most of the lynch infowise by targeting Prag?
    Probably not. I would get info on wikki and other Prag voters.
    But if we lynch wikki we get a lot more info on Prag and CK and GCE.
    If we lynch CK, I'm actually not sure about info value of that as CK cases were all around the place from reasonable to pure tinfoil (Aer). I think we get a lot of info if CK flips scum, but I'm not so sure about that and him flipping town just leaves us with many suspects.

    So, I guess it's time to move my vote again

    ##Vote wikkiden
    What information do you get on prag and CK and GCE when I flip town? I understand your argument that if I flip scum you could maybe WIFOM some stuff about bussing prag, CK looks a lot scummier because I've been kind of diverting attention from them, and GCE and I have been a bit buddy-buddy with our reads of each other, that all makes sense. But I'd like to know what you intend to learn when I flip town, if you're arguing to lynch me from an info perspective.
    I can't speak for Capage, but I feel like if you flip town, it makes Pragmatic and to a lesser extent catgode, who has been seemingly invisible for long stretches of the game to me, less likely to be scum. If you or Pragmatic flip wolf, I would strongly suspect the other, as my feeling is that you 2 decided to bus each other in an effort to try and split the vote, with the hope that you could get CK lynched.

  6. ISO #1506
    Thread Analyst Okosan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TK5141 (#1465)
    Quote Originally Posted by Okosan (#1452)
    Quote Originally Posted by TK5141 (#1305)
    Quote Originally Posted by Okosan (#1302)
    Coooo! (Don't know what you mean Okosan is only talking about what isn't but alright. Okosan is actively questioning people to gauge reads and opinions so that he can make an informed decision)
    You're basically saying "I believe you're wrong", and that it would be too hard to see a scumteam if GCEDW/CK would be scum, but I wanna hear what theories you do believe more, what I should turn my attention to, instead of hearing your opinions of a discussion you started with calling "wasted". Give me the chance to replace my theories with other possible scenarios, other possible scums.

    You also haven't answered my questions in my replies to you.
    Cooo! COO! (Okosan finds it interesting you were so curious about what his beliefs/opinions were, and yet once Okosan actually posts them you don't even talk about them. Not even to question some of the reads that are completely different than yours)
    What? I've just made three readlists based on moving myself out of my conviction to take your v/v/v into consideration.

    Also I have commented several of your posts without getting a response:

    Quote Originally Posted by TK5141 (#1386)
    Quote Originally Posted by Okosan (#1359)
    @Aersoldorf - Scum
    Quote Originally Posted by Aersoldorf (#1046)
    Ok, I took a break from doing ISO studies on the remaining players and instead looked at the last few hours before D1 EoD, hoping to spot anything suspicious that may help the town. Now that I've finished, and I see the comments made thus far in D2, I can say that I believe TK and I may be sharing a collective mind. Reading through his logic almost makes me think he has a camera in my house and is looking at my notes.

    After Jamiet cast his vote for CK in P#842 the leading candidates for lynching were Jamiet (5), GC (3) and CK (3). Much has been made of apparent collusion between Jamiet and GC for both looking into CK within a few minutes of one another; and much has been speculated about as to why Jamiet didn't attempt to save himself by voting for GC instead of CK.

    Wiki's vote in P#843 made it 6/3/3 and with P#909 GC made the count 6/4/3 (Jamiet/CK/GC)

    At this point Cap removed his vote from CK and switched it to GC in P#921. I found that post a bit odd because he quoted GC's P#909 vote for CK, then TAGGED CK and asked a really odd question: @CerealKiller, do you want some generic reasons?"

    What was that question in response to? He gave no indication of why he was changing his vote to GC. Why bother tagging CK at all? Interesting to note that Catgode also tagged CK within the same minute, even though CK had posted in game just 5 minutes earlier. Could it be that, because of CK's previous reveal that he'd be busy with the closing moments of Ramadan, both of them were worried about a potential CFD on CK at EoD, CK had checked out of their scum chat, and the only way to get him back was to ping him and hope he'd notice that ping before it was too late? I can see where it's possible that in scum chat Cap and Cat had discussed the need to ping CK and get him back online asap, but confusion arose as to which person should ping him and so both of them did it almost simultaneously.

    Cap's switch from CK to GC moved GC into 2nd place with 4 votes to CK's 3, thus putting CK in a slightly safer position at the time.

    The double pings appear to have worked because CK showed up and in P#936 changed his vote from Cap to Jamiet, making it far less likely that a last minute CFD would end up ousting CK. Then just a short bit later,in P#949, CK changed his vote again, from Jamiet to GC - with NO indication of why he was doing so. Could it be that CK, having gotten the pings and rejoining the scum chat voted too quickly for Jamiet and then was chastised in scum chat because his partners warned him that late-comers to a town wagon would be looked at pretty closely during D2? So he quickly jumped off the main wagon and onto a safer GC wagon, which still had the effect of keeping CK in 3rd place?

    Cap then panicks because if GC does get CFD'd in the closing minutes there would be 2 scum on that wagon, and both of them came in late. Couldn't have that, so in P#965 Cap jumps from GC to Jamiet to 'prevent Jamiet from being able to save himself' - and that proved to be the case.

    I honestly believe that TK's last minute change from CK to Jamiet in P#970 was nothing more than an ill-thought-out maneuver that served no purpose, other than to possibly make him appear more scummy (not intentionally mind you.

    Is it possible that our scum team is made up of the 3 C's? Catgode, CK and Cap appear to have worked pretty well together to ensure that CK wasn't accidentally lynched on D1 - even though Cap and CK appeared to publicly attack one another by voting against one another early they seem to have abandoned that tactic when it became necessary to save one of their own.

    I might be reading too much into this, but for the moment I'd say that TK is solidly green in my book and the 3 C's have some explaining to do.

    I welcome anyone else's input on this.
    Cooooo! COOOO! (So here's the thing, this explanation here has so many assumptions it's hard to actually believe. First off in this you have to assume that GC is town for it to make any sense, and yet when Okosan asked you earlier about this and your scum lean on them now, it seems as if you don't even really care about that. You claim that you proposed a scenario in which GC is scum with CK, but let's look at that too shall we?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aersoldorf (#1207)
    Ok, I've been trying to think of a plausible scenario where a scum GC would jump on the CK wagon (assuming CK is fellow scum) instead of voting for Jamiet.

    Before GC's jump, the vote was 6/3/3 (Jam/GC/CK)

    I do realize this may be a reach, but what if GC followed Jamiet's lead in jumping to the CK wagon in an attempt to look so suspicious that nobody else would dare touch the CK vote? People initially thought that it was collusion between them and thought that it possibly indicated that both Jam and GC were scum buds trying to force a 3rd wagon into the lead. I believe it was Violet who was the first to point out that such a scenario was unlikely, and I also think that Dys agreed with that assessment (although I'm going from memory and not actually taking the time to double check right now), but the fact remains that after GC's jump, nobody else joined the CK wagon and the net result was more votes for Jamiet.

    If the move had been successful and gotten CK flipped as scum then GC would have built up some town cred, which helps team scum. And if it smacked of such scumminess that GC ended up being the D2 lynch then it would have the effect of moving suspicion away from scum CK - also helping team scum. GC openly admitted that he was willing to allow himself to be lynched, so is it possible that with heat being applied to two members of the scum team (GC and CK) that GC decided to play the hero and sacrifice himself in order to take the heat off of CK?
    Coo!! (This is yet again, such a stretch. You're assuming that the mafia are making some god play at all times and that's probably just not the case. You yourself even say that "this may be a reach", and overall seem way too alright with this theory that involves a lot of mental hoops to jump through.)


    COOOO? (Furthermore on top of all of this Okosan read through your iso and (unless he missed it) not once do you actually talk about why CK is scummy at all. You only talk about how this vote logic scenario works. Ignoring that, why is CK scummy to you? Why are the other C's that you mentioned. What led to you initial wanting to analyze these posts and not someone else's more? Why not vote CK before everyone else got a wagon going on them like you did in P#1194? It's just a lot of bleh coming from this)

    @catgode - Town lean
    COOOO! (Okosan doesn't think that Catgode makes the dizzy kill personally due to P#592. Just seems like they would maybe push for someone they town read, but was a part of the town core, instead. Now obviously Catgode could've been outvoted here, but still.)

    Coo? (Besides surface level kill analysis, Okosan is just leaning town on Catgode anyways. Okosan really like there pushes and ways of interacting with people honestly, and they just read town to him. Okosan's only real complaint is catgode did take a little while to get to the Jamiet lynch, and if GCD does somehow flip scum later catgode is probably a partner just due to wagonomics, but meh Okosan can look into that later if it ever comes up)

    @CerealKiller - Town for reasons stated.
    Coooo! Cooo! (But actually something Okosan didn't even notice before is that they voted for Jamiet first, and then pivoted to GCED. Which makes it even less likely ioo that they would be wolf here. They could easily keep the vote they had on Jamiet in the last 5 minutes and just call it a day. From a non wagonomic situation Okosan honestly doesn't really see what you guys were/are pushing here anyways as well. It seems like a lot of it has to do with the end of day votes from yesterday to begin with, though to be fair this is judged off of CK's ISO so Okosan only saw the stuff that CK responded too)

    @Chilly - Scum lean
    COOOOO? (Honestly don't have a super long analysis on this on or anything. Okosan just really wants to gut call Chilly scum. A lot of the stuff they've said has either lightly pinged Okosan or he hasn't immediately understood where Chilly is coming from. It's probably the lightest scum read that Okosan has right now)

    @GCEDW - Town for reasons stated already, though Okosan did have an initial null/scum lean on them earlier.
    @ASmiller - Absolutely Null.
    Coo!! (The only thing they've done that oculd even be alignment indicative is vote for CK, and even that only had the barest of explanations. There's no way to read them either way right now, and they need to post some amount of reads.)

    @Pragmatic - Honestly a town lean tbh.
    Cooo! COOOO? (Nothing that Prag has done has been scummy besides the fact that they've been low on activity / has had activity excuses. Which Okosan doesn't really think is scummy at all in the first place anyways. Okosan himself had both a town and a scum practice game for this where he was busy and had lower activity because of it. And reading the content of said posts, Prag doesn't seem to be pushing any sort of actual agenda... Though Okosan would still like to hear more from them)

    @Relm - Town
    Cooo! (Same as Violet essentially)

    @TK5141 - Null
    COOOO! (TK is... interesting. Honestly Okosan doesn't even want to try to read TK right now just due to how opposite they seem to be reading the game when compared to Okosan. This feels like a situation where we wait a day or two, see how things shake out, and then if we're still alive we can sit down and actually evaluate each other a bit better.)

    @Violet - Town
    Cooooooooo? (It's the same read as before. Okosan is liking the posts that Violet is making as well as what they are pushing. Honestly probably won't get too into this or Relm since Okosan already listed them as town)

    @wikkiden - Scum
    COO! COO! (D1 - Okosan really didn't like Wikki's justification and lead up to their vote on Jamiet. Basically at the end of that day, Wikki made two huge posts in P#757 and P#781. The first focusing on Jamiet and the second focusing on GCE. Reading the two, they feel vastly different. The post on GCE actually feels alright enough. They bring up things that can actually be read into, and generally come to the conclusion that they don't want to lynch GCE. Meanwhile, the post on Jamiet is very not great. A large portion of the stuff Wikki reacted to here were honestly NAI, and yet those things led to a scum read for some reason.
    After that, Wikki then spent a long time justifying their vote by saying things like "so it's hard for me to see my vote being anyone but Jamie today." in P#812. And " I will almost surely be on the Jamie wagon today" in P#788. It just reads a lot like Wikki wanting to explain why they're voting the way they are preemptively.)

    Cooo!! (D2 - The first thing that pings Okosan here is P#1214. It reads a lot like "Well see I very clearly sus this other person that no one is leaning towards, but I GUESS I could be convinced to vote for my counterwagon". Which is the easiest thing in the world to walk back on after the fact if CK is town, which is what Okosan is reading them as.
    And honestly? That's about it. Wikki honestly hasn't done nearly as much to talk about on D2 as they have on D1)
    With wikkiden, I can see that he has quite weak reasoning that you're pointing out, but since you townread CK and GCEDW, I don't see why you think that equals scum? He did do an ISO and the quality of the conclusions shouldn't be worse just because he's scum, it's not like a TMI from wikki.
    If v/v/v, could you explain why it would be scummy with that approach wikki had? If GCEDW is scum though, I can see an agenda. If GCED and CK is town, I don't see your point since I don't see why weak reasoning should equal scum in that situation where he's certainly not forced to push Jamie? You're not creating a scenario that I can find realistic with your suspicions there.



    Quote Originally Posted by TK5141 (#1269)
    Quote Originally Posted by Okosan (#1251)
    COOOO! (So here's how Okosan is reading yesterday, and it is mostly based on wagonomics and wagonomic adjacent reasoning, but still. Here are the 4 worlds from yesterday with the other two main wagons

    GCED/CK - W/W - This world doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to Okosan. CK swapped over to GCED putting GCED 1 self-pres vote away from getting destroyed. There are only 2 reasons to do this vote. CK is certain that if he doesn't vote GCED now then CK is going to get owned later, or if CK is certain that Jamiet is going to get lynched. And Okosan doesn't really see either of these reasons tbh. For reason 1, Okosan doesn't think either vote would really make them get looked at more or less. You could very easily stay on Jamiet and have a plethora of other people on your side as well, so that one doesn't really make sense to him. For reason 2, Okosan thinks it was actually very up in the air considering all that needed for a moment there was a self pres vote.
    So this world doesn't really make sense unless the scum team was leaving it to fate if they would lose a member or not. Which is meh to evaluate

    GCED/CK - W/T - This world makes CK's vote look better as it's just a town swapping around to their new sus, but now we run into the issue of why Okosan doesn't really think GCED is scum in the first place. GCED as scum almost always just votes for self preservation, and then can just easily hide behind that in the future. No one would sus GCED off of that alone.The only reason Okosan really sees GCED not doing this is if his scum mates are not currently on the wagon, and could swap to Jamiet if needed. Even this, though, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to Okosan considering GCED almost always swaps first ioo. So Okosan really just wants to read GCED town here

    GCED/CK - T/W - Possible, but why bring more attention to yourself as scum here? Last minute swaps always look scummy, and if CK flips later it's going to be real hard to convince people to vote for GCED at that point. Basically you're locking yourself into killing GCED if anyone ever looks at that vote again if you can't kill them. Going off of this, Okosan feels like there would be more of a push on GCED today if this was the case. Scum CK / scum team wouldn't want to just leave GCED alone after that unless they're reading that town is never going to scum read them. Even then that's an iffy assumption to make

    GCED/CK - T/T - Really just what the scenario feels like to Okosan. A lot of people in this thread are going on long rants about what the swaps meant and this and that, and really it honestly just feels like a large waste of time to Okosan. Any teams with these two scum seem really hard to make, and it seems like the easiest thing to bring up as scum to get town to waste their time and go on a wild goose chase.)

    Coo! COO! (Thoughts?)
    So, your W/W, 1: You don't think they're wolf-wolf because a vote on each other wouldn't change anything anyway if people saw them connected or not? And, based on that, you don't believe they are? But if they are, that is what's behind why you don't believe they are? If I didn't interpret you wrong here, you just refuted your own argument?
    2: If a self-preservation-vote was what would be reasonable... that's not what we saw, but both of them kept that option alive if necessary. Both had arguments used to keep that door open, in a way that it would have seemed Less odd than what CerealKiller did while according to himself "almost got lynched by a Chinese FireDrill".

    GC/CK W/T / GC/CK T/W: Read last sentence above, that's why the CK-vote still is odd. 47 hours and 55 minutes into the day, he chosed to vote Jamie. 47 hours and 58 minutes into the day, he voted GC, as if he had some kind of revelation during those three minutes, which I find to believe very unlikely.
    Considering the T/W-scenario: Such a small scum-team wouldn't be able to pull through a push on GCED instead of CK today, I'd find that unbelievable and also close to suicidal to even try. And during those last minutes, if CK is scum and GC is town, and if CK started to believe he might be lynched (while the others maybe realized he wasn't but still were stressed in the situation), I don't think scumteam had time to think through every scenario like "What might people think of GCED if CK flips scum later?", things went pretty fast there. So maybe they just wanted to spread their votes at different wagons or something at that point. I definitely wouldn't rule it out. It surprises me that you find it a "waste" to focus on possibilities concerning CK (while doing just this exakt thing yourself in your only contribution so far today).

    T/T: Why would it be so hard to find a team of three if those two are scum? I don't find it that hard.

    Did you find CerealKillers change of votes at EoD trustworthy?

    What's the scumteam that's easier to put together for you if you expect GCED/CK to be town/town?


    You keep asking for answers in a much higher extent than giving answers.
    Coooooo! (Oh honestly Okosan missed your response to his mega read list somehow)

  7. ISO #1507
    Bandwagoner Aersoldorf's Avatar
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    So if Wikki flips town we've got Cap saying that locks Prag as scum and GC saying it would exonerate Prag to some degree...

    Can't be both

  8. ISO #1508
    Thread Analyst GCEDW's Avatar
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    I see that Pragmatic still only has 9 posts right now. What happens if he doesn't get to 10 posts before EOD, depending on if he gets lynched or not?

  9. ISO #1509
    Bandwagoner wikkiden's Avatar
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    Great, so the info lynch on me would convince Capage that pragmatic is scum because my reads were pure (that's a lot of faith to put into me, I still could just have $#@!ty reads), and it would somehow convince GC that pragmatic is also town, because now I'm not bussing him and your entire read on Prag is that he's scum because I'm scum? Lol. Gonna be a no from me on info-lynching me then, chief.

  10. ISO #1510
    Thread Analyst TK5141's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#1498)
    Quote Originally Posted by TK5141 (#1491)
    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#1484)
    @TK5141 P#1475
    the part i liked in okosan's readlist is the townlean on me which seems like the strongest in the thread atm? (not counting gcedw, but at least he made an iso analysis) and quoting "my pushes" and "interactions", which i dont know if there really are any (i went hard at jamie after getting frustrated a bit but it was late at eod, and aside from that, i bickered with TK so idk)

    i appreciate the gesture, but it feels like the least honest read ive gotten while also being the strongest, and... idk.

    your opinions?
    I read it but didn't react really on it, it's not very inconsistent from my own view of you. Which is rare when it comes to me + Okosan...

    So I don't mistrust Okosan because of that. But I'm getting more and more of a scumlean on Okosan because of his (according to me) odd way to approach things, starting to think he does what's necessary to stay in towncharacter but besides from that points toward other as much as he can, but basically ignores what comes back to him. No matter of his alignment it starts to frustrate me.
    You're much more on the fence with me though, are you not? And you have a pretty solid backing for the read, with a healthy does of doubt and some specific thoughts. Meanwhile Okosan comes with a, seemingly (at least from my PoV) more confident read, and aside from thinking I wouldn't shoot Dyslexicon at night and a repeat of a possible GC/ctgd assoc, there's not much said there that's not a generic "they make good this and that". Which really strikes me as odd because what are my pushes? Grilling Jamie when he's more or less a set lynch and snapping back at you because I found you to slight me with that one skill-related thing we talked about.

    It's just easier for me to evaluate people's reads on me, because I knoww my play the best, so I think I can argue best about their validity.

    Also Dys has shown doubt there and in general Oko's been feeling weaker...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dyslexicon (#911)
    I'm good with Relm and Violet.
    TK very towny to me.
    I refuse to town read Okosan. Don't know why, but he's town if Jamie is scum. (Could even see Okosan/Asdorf if Jamie town)

    Wikki I've talked about a lot. Motherhen snooze.

    Still pretty lost I guess. Really hoping for scum here.
    Wow... this is interesting, for sure my favorite contribution from you. I'm puzzled between if you're on to something good here or if your intentions with this aren't pure since I'm about to tilt at Okosans questions/non-answers, but this post really got my attention and made me wonder...

  11. ISO #1511
    Bandwagoner wikkiden's Avatar
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    Well, it may seem unlikely to you that I flip town, but I *know* I'm going to flip town, so if you're going to argue it from an info perspective, you're going to need to dig deeper and try to figure out if it will actually give any information. Otherwise, argue to lynch me because you think I'm most likely to be scum, which fine, is a whole different discussion to have.

  12. ISO #1512
    Thread Analyst GCEDW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1509)
    Great, so the info lynch on me would convince Capage that pragmatic is scum because my reads were pure (that's a lot of faith to put into me, I still could just have $#@!ty reads), and it would somehow convince GC that pragmatic is also town, because now I'm not bussing him and your entire read on Prag is that he's scum because I'm scum? Lol. Gonna be a no from me on info-lynching me then, chief.
    Ok, tell me why you and Prag voted each other after having very little contact between each other on d1? I admit, it sounds like a crazy strategy, but I've seen much crazier strategies tried by scum before.

  13. ISO #1513
    Bandwagoner wikkiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCEDW (#1512)
    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1509)
    Great, so the info lynch on me would convince Capage that pragmatic is scum because my reads were pure (that's a lot of faith to put into me, I still could just have $#@!ty reads), and it would somehow convince GC that pragmatic is also town, because now I'm not bussing him and your entire read on Prag is that he's scum because I'm scum? Lol. Gonna be a no from me on info-lynching me then, chief.
    Ok, tell me why you and Prag voted each other after having very little contact between each other on d1? I admit, it sounds like a crazy strategy, but I've seen much crazier strategies tried by scum before.
    I mean, I can't explain why he voted for me, I'm still arguing that it's OMGUS. I can explain why I voted for him, and have, in my iso deep dive on him. I'm not saying it's impossible that we're bussing each other (though I have pointed out in an above post that from a GTO perspective it makes more sense for him to bus me and for me to take it lying down - which makes even less sense in the overall scheme of me pointing to him before he pointed to me), but I think it's weak that your entire read on him is based on me being scum and bussing him.

  14. ISO #1514
    Thread Analyst GCEDW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1511)
    Well, it may seem unlikely to you that I flip town, but I *know* I'm going to flip town, so if you're going to argue it from an info perspective, you're going to need to dig deeper and try to figure out if it will actually give any information. Otherwise, argue to lynch me because you think I'm most likely to be scum, which fine, is a whole different discussion to have.
    That is a fair question. I did a ISO into you a few hours ago, and just felt like there was some questionable reasoning into your vote for Jamie, a sudden and unexplainable unbuilt upturn towards scum reading Pragmatic, and a lack of overall scum hunting.

  15. ISO #1515
    Thread Analyst GCEDW's Avatar
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    Several of my concerns into Pragmatic, listed in P#1337 still need to be answered though, I'm conflicted because I feel like Pragmatic and wikkiden are either T/T or W/W, but I feel like pragmatic has been given plenty of chances to explain his side, and I haven't seen much to make me feel better of him. I will vote Prag here.
    ##Vote Pragmatic

  16. ISO #1516
    Automatic Game Mod Mafia Host's Avatar
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    Season 7, Game 5: WARPLANES [The Mafia Championship] Day 2 Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    4 Pragmatic wikkiden (25), Relm (77), CerealKiller (25), GCEDW (51)
    3 CerealKiller TK5141 (44), ASmiller (23), Aersoldorf (49)
    3 wikkiden Violet (52), Okosan (36), Capage (88)
    3 Not voting Chilly (11), Pragmatic (9), catgode (25)

    View Vote History

    End day at majority is enabled. With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to reach majority.

    Day 2 ends at 4:00 PM EDT on Saturday, May 23rd, 2020. There are 1590264060000 remaining.

  17. ISO #1517
    Thread Analyst Okosan's Avatar
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    Cooo! (And TK the reason it's scummy is the over explanation / lead up, as well as the reasoning itself tbh. If you look at the post that Okosan mentioned Wikki's deep dive on Jamie was about 60% based on NAI stuff that they somehow scum read. Just quoting as an example, but:
    Jamie - "Oh look people arguing about "No Lynch".

    At least some things here are familiar, lol"
    Wikki - "Did this happen for any time at all? It seems like it was maybe briefly mentioned, but I feel like no real time was spent on it. Reaching?")

    Coo! (Commenting about NL does not equal being scummy, or really anything of not)

    COOOOO! (Now the second part is the over explanation. At the end of that post Wikki says "Going to take a look at GC but I could easily be convinced onto placing my vote here, and likely will." Then Wikki continues to say variations of that exact same thing in P#781 (" Still things that ping me as off about GC, especially early game, but got way better as the game went on and imo no where close to as strong of a lynch as Jamie.")
    P#788
    P#812
    P#815 (To an extent)
    And then finally votes for Jamie in P#843)

    Cooo! Cooo! (Ioo this reads a lot more like mafia trying to over justify their vote than town just trying to find a good vote. As town, why do you have to say you're going to vote Jamie 5 times before you actually do? The first couple are understandable as they are based on the deep dives and trying to collect info, but the last ones are very meh)

  18. ISO #1518
    Bandwagoner wikkiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCEDW (#1514)
    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1511)
    Well, it may seem unlikely to you that I flip town, but I *know* I'm going to flip town, so if you're going to argue it from an info perspective, you're going to need to dig deeper and try to figure out if it will actually give any information. Otherwise, argue to lynch me because you think I'm most likely to be scum, which fine, is a whole different discussion to have.
    That is a fair question. I did a ISO into you a few hours ago, and just felt like there was some questionable reasoning into your vote for Jamie, a sudden and unexplainable unbuilt upturn towards scum reading Pragmatic, and a lack of overall scum hunting.
    Those are reasons to scumread me, not to view me as an info-lynch. My argument here that you were responding to were that I thought I'm a rather terrible info lynch (capage was arguing I would be a good one), because I don't see what info you gain from me flipping town. The people who have been primarily pushing my lynch are in most people's towncores (though I disagree to an extent, but don't feel it's particularly useful to dive into those "harder targets" today), so I think me getting lynched and flipping town gets pretty much everyone off scot free.

    In terms of why you scumread me, I've done four deep dive ISO's this game: jamie, GC, pragmatic, CK. I came out of it scumreading jamie/pragmatic (which you can see in my posts), and null-town leaning GC and CK. So I really don't understand how you could say my votes came out of no where, when the two people I've been voting before EoD were my two scumreads. The argument that I haven't been doing a lot of scum hunting is fair, and my defense to that is still that I am overwhelmed and have been a possible wagon on both days, so it makes sense I would naturally focus my energy towards my competing wagons? Like, what does scumhunting from me in the capage/okosan/aerso/TK/asimiller side of things do for us right now?

  19. ISO #1519
    Thread Analyst Okosan's Avatar
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    Coo! (Imagine voting Prag)

  20. ISO #1520
    Soul Reader catgode's Avatar
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    can we make a 3way tie for fun

  21. ISO #1521
    Thread Analyst TK5141's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCEDW (#1514)
    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1511)
    Well, it may seem unlikely to you that I flip town, but I *know* I'm going to flip town, so if you're going to argue it from an info perspective, you're going to need to dig deeper and try to figure out if it will actually give any information. Otherwise, argue to lynch me because you think I'm most likely to be scum, which fine, is a whole different discussion to have.
    That is a fair question. I did a ISO into you a few hours ago, and just felt like there was some questionable reasoning into your vote for Jamie, a sudden and unexplainable unbuilt upturn towards scum reading Pragmatic, and a lack of overall scum hunting.
    Weak reasoning doesn't equal scum unless there's some kind of agenda behind it, it's hard to claim he didn't put effort in his Jamie-vote with his ISO, coming from a player who aren't even used to forum-mafia. And with effort, the result (with weak reasoning) is in itself likely NAI. If you'd be scum - sure, then there would be an agenda and might have been forced, but if you're not scum, I don't see why he would come up with worse arguments as a clueless town than as a scum.

  22. ISO #1522
    GOAT Tier Capage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1509)
    Great, so the info lynch on me would convince Capage that pragmatic is scum because my reads were pure (that's a lot of faith to put into me, I still could just have $#@!ty reads), and it would somehow convince GC that pragmatic is also town, because now I'm not bussing him and your entire read on Prag is that he's scum because I'm scum? Lol. Gonna be a no from me on info-lynching me then, chief.
    I have an independent sr on prag and you flipping town would add to it if it makes any sense.

  23. ISO #1523
    Thread Analyst Okosan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1509)
    Great, so the info lynch on me would convince Capage that pragmatic is scum because my reads were pure (that's a lot of faith to put into me, I still could just have $#@!ty reads), and it would somehow convince GC that pragmatic is also town, because now I'm not bussing him and your entire read on Prag is that he's scum because I'm scum? Lol. Gonna be a no from me on info-lynching me then, chief.
    Cooooo? (Also imagine entertaining info lynching yourself lmao)

  24. ISO #1524
    Thread Analyst GCEDW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#1520)
    can we make a 3way tie for fun
    Lets just make the right lynch, catgode. Who do you suspect right now?

  25. ISO #1525
    Bandwagoner wikkiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okosan (#1517)
    Cooo! (And TK the reason it's scummy is the over explanation / lead up, as well as the reasoning itself tbh. If you look at the post that Okosan mentioned Wikki's deep dive on Jamie was about 60% based on NAI stuff that they somehow scum read. Just quoting as an example, but:
    Jamie - "Oh look people arguing about "No Lynch".

    At least some things here are familiar, lol"
    Wikki - "Did this happen for any time at all? It seems like it was maybe briefly mentioned, but I feel like no real time was spent on it. Reaching?")

    Coo! (Commenting about NL does not equal being scummy, or really anything of not)

    COOOOO! (Now the second part is the over explanation. At the end of that post Wikki says "Going to take a look at GC but I could easily be convinced onto placing my vote here, and likely will." Then Wikki continues to say variations of that exact same thing in P#781 (" Still things that ping me as off about GC, especially early game, but got way better as the game went on and imo no where close to as strong of a lynch as Jamie.")
    P#788
    P#812
    P#815 (To an extent)
    And then finally votes for Jamie in P#843)

    Cooo! Cooo! (Ioo this reads a lot more like mafia trying to over justify their vote than town just trying to find a good vote. As town, why do you have to say you're going to vote Jamie 5 times before you actually do? The first couple are understandable as they are based on the deep dives and trying to collect info, but the last ones are very meh)
    Quite possible this is a playstyle difference, though I find it pretty bizarre that it comes off as scummy. In every community I've ever played in, it's always been majority lynch, so holding your vote is very important because if you bring people within L-1 or L-2, it's starting to get risky that scum will blitz (to win game if it's mylo/lylo, or to end day early and limit town information). I see two reasons to vote: to pressure somebody, or because you're sure that's where you want your vote to be for the day. I didn't see any reason to extra pressure Jamie in that spot, and I wasn't sure I was going to be voting Jamie until the time at which I did vote. How is it scummy to hold your vote while you're still building a case until you're confident that's where you want to be? I was pretty sure I scumread Jamie over GC from my two ISO posts, but it was jamie's indifference/giving up attitude towards day end that really nailed in the coffin for me.

  26. ISO #1526
    Soul Reader catgode's Avatar
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    regarding maj

    1. scum majjing on purpose midday would look sus as $#@!
    2. most day ones on MU have maj disabled

  27. ISO #1527
    Bandwagoner wikkiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capage (#1522)
    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1509)
    Great, so the info lynch on me would convince Capage that pragmatic is scum because my reads were pure (that's a lot of faith to put into me, I still could just have $#@!ty reads), and it would somehow convince GC that pragmatic is also town, because now I'm not bussing him and your entire read on Prag is that he's scum because I'm scum? Lol. Gonna be a no from me on info-lynching me then, chief.
    I have an independent sr on prag and you flipping town would add to it if it makes any sense.
    Fair, but a bad reason to info-lynch imo. That's like, very little information you specifically would be gaining lmao.

  28. ISO #1528
    Thread Analyst Okosan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1525)
    Quote Originally Posted by Okosan (#1517)
    Cooo! (And TK the reason it's scummy is the over explanation / lead up, as well as the reasoning itself tbh. If you look at the post that Okosan mentioned Wikki's deep dive on Jamie was about 60% based on NAI stuff that they somehow scum read. Just quoting as an example, but:
    Jamie - "Oh look people arguing about "No Lynch".

    At least some things here are familiar, lol"
    Wikki - "Did this happen for any time at all? It seems like it was maybe briefly mentioned, but I feel like no real time was spent on it. Reaching?")

    Coo! (Commenting about NL does not equal being scummy, or really anything of not)

    COOOOO! (Now the second part is the over explanation. At the end of that post Wikki says "Going to take a look at GC but I could easily be convinced onto placing my vote here, and likely will." Then Wikki continues to say variations of that exact same thing in P#781 (" Still things that ping me as off about GC, especially early game, but got way better as the game went on and imo no where close to as strong of a lynch as Jamie.")
    P#788
    P#812
    P#815 (To an extent)
    And then finally votes for Jamie in P#843)

    Cooo! Cooo! (Ioo this reads a lot more like mafia trying to over justify their vote than town just trying to find a good vote. As town, why do you have to say you're going to vote Jamie 5 times before you actually do? The first couple are understandable as they are based on the deep dives and trying to collect info, but the last ones are very meh)
    Quite possible this is a playstyle difference, though I find it pretty bizarre that it comes off as scummy. In every community I've ever played in, it's always been majority lynch, so holding your vote is very important because if you bring people within L-1 or L-2, it's starting to get risky that scum will blitz (to win game if it's mylo/lylo, or to end day early and limit town information). I see two reasons to vote: to pressure somebody, or because you're sure that's where you want your vote to be for the day. I didn't see any reason to extra pressure Jamie in that spot, and I wasn't sure I was going to be voting Jamie until the time at which I did vote. How is it scummy to hold your vote while you're still building a case until you're confident that's where you want to be? I was pretty sure I scumread Jamie over GC from my two ISO posts, but it was jamie's indifference/giving up attitude towards day end that really nailed in the coffin for me.
    Cooo! (It's not necessarily scummy to hold your vote (though there is definitely a lot less reason to do so on D1 where majority is not enabled) what's more scummy is the fact that you felt the need to bring up you were going to vote Jamie 5 times before you actually did it.)

    COOOO! ("I wasn't sure I was going to be voting Jamie until the time at which I did vote" From what Okosan posted it very much seems like you were pretty sure. Especially since you didn't really ever find another person scummy that could be the lynch. Except for people that you said you might've voted if it had come up earlier.)

  29. ISO #1529
    Bandwagoner wikkiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#1526)
    @wikkiden
    regarding maj

    1. scum majjing on purpose midday would look sus as $#@!
    2. most day ones on MU have maj disabled
    I get that (though there are times a scum blitz would not care about looking sus - for instance if you bring it within L-1 of somebody who is scum, and it's looking almost positive they will be lynched, they can self-hammer to end day and create chaos). I'm just explaining why I personally held my vote, and don't see why it looks scummy. I understand that maj was disabled d1, but that doesn't change the years of mafia that I've played and my instinctual reaction not to vote.

  30. ISO #1530
    Thread Analyst GCEDW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1518)
    Quote Originally Posted by GCEDW (#1514)
    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1511)
    Well, it may seem unlikely to you that I flip town, but I *know* I'm going to flip town, so if you're going to argue it from an info perspective, you're going to need to dig deeper and try to figure out if it will actually give any information. Otherwise, argue to lynch me because you think I'm most likely to be scum, which fine, is a whole different discussion to have.
    That is a fair question. I did a ISO into you a few hours ago, and just felt like there was some questionable reasoning into your vote for Jamie, a sudden and unexplainable unbuilt upturn towards scum reading Pragmatic, and a lack of overall scum hunting.
    Those are reasons to scumread me, not to view me as an info-lynch. My argument here that you were responding to were that I thought I'm a rather terrible info lynch (capage was arguing I would be a good one), because I don't see what info you gain from me flipping town. The people who have been primarily pushing my lynch are in most people's towncores (though I disagree to an extent, but don't feel it's particularly useful to dive into those "harder targets" today), so I think me getting lynched and flipping town gets pretty much everyone off scot free.

    In terms of why you scumread me, I've done four deep dive ISO's this game: jamie, GC, pragmatic, CK. I came out of it scumreading jamie/pragmatic (which you can see in my posts), and null-town leaning GC and CK. So I really don't understand how you could say my votes came out of no where, when the two people I've been voting before EoD were my two scumreads. The argument that I haven't been doing a lot of scum hunting is fair, and my defense to that is still that I am overwhelmed and have been a possible wagon on both days, so it makes sense I would naturally focus my energy towards my competing wagons? Like, what does scumhunting from me in the capage/okosan/aerso/TK/asimiller side of things do for us right now?
    I do think you made a more concerted effort at EOD than many of the other players, and I appreciate that. As far as I've been able to see though, the reluctance from you and Pragmatic to scum hunt says to me that you don't want to give away a bunch of info from your reads if you are lynched. I understand it is difficult when you are falsely on a wagon, but the best way to help yourself is make reads and connections between the different players. If not Pragmatic, who else then? On death, scum hunting from everyone provides info based on which side they lie on and when they died.

  31. ISO #1531
    Bandwagoner wikkiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okosan (#1528)
    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1525)
    Quote Originally Posted by Okosan (#1517)
    Cooo! (And TK the reason it's scummy is the over explanation / lead up, as well as the reasoning itself tbh. If you look at the post that Okosan mentioned Wikki's deep dive on Jamie was about 60% based on NAI stuff that they somehow scum read. Just quoting as an example, but:
    Jamie - "Oh look people arguing about "No Lynch".

    At least some things here are familiar, lol"
    Wikki - "Did this happen for any time at all? It seems like it was maybe briefly mentioned, but I feel like no real time was spent on it. Reaching?")

    Coo! (Commenting about NL does not equal being scummy, or really anything of not)

    COOOOO! (Now the second part is the over explanation. At the end of that post Wikki says "Going to take a look at GC but I could easily be convinced onto placing my vote here, and likely will." Then Wikki continues to say variations of that exact same thing in P#781 (" Still things that ping me as off about GC, especially early game, but got way better as the game went on and imo no where close to as strong of a lynch as Jamie.")
    P#788
    P#812
    P#815 (To an extent)
    And then finally votes for Jamie in P#843)

    Cooo! Cooo! (Ioo this reads a lot more like mafia trying to over justify their vote than town just trying to find a good vote. As town, why do you have to say you're going to vote Jamie 5 times before you actually do? The first couple are understandable as they are based on the deep dives and trying to collect info, but the last ones are very meh)
    Quite possible this is a playstyle difference, though I find it pretty bizarre that it comes off as scummy. In every community I've ever played in, it's always been majority lynch, so holding your vote is very important because if you bring people within L-1 or L-2, it's starting to get risky that scum will blitz (to win game if it's mylo/lylo, or to end day early and limit town information). I see two reasons to vote: to pressure somebody, or because you're sure that's where you want your vote to be for the day. I didn't see any reason to extra pressure Jamie in that spot, and I wasn't sure I was going to be voting Jamie until the time at which I did vote. How is it scummy to hold your vote while you're still building a case until you're confident that's where you want to be? I was pretty sure I scumread Jamie over GC from my two ISO posts, but it was jamie's indifference/giving up attitude towards day end that really nailed in the coffin for me.
    Cooo! (It's not necessarily scummy to hold your vote (though there is definitely a lot less reason to do so on D1 where majority is not enabled) what's more scummy is the fact that you felt the need to bring up you were going to vote Jamie 5 times before you actually did it.)

    COOOO! ("I wasn't sure I was going to be voting Jamie until the time at which I did vote" From what Okosan posted it very much seems like you were pretty sure. Especially since you didn't really ever find another person scummy that could be the lynch. Except for people that you said you might've voted if it had come up earlier.)
    I like to narrate my thoughts out loud so that people know where I'm at? I guess I see your argument. I disagree that it's particularly scummy behavior, but that's my rationale behind it at least.

    I was pretty sure it would be Jamie over GC, I was waiting to see if another wagon would develop. I asked several times for people to explain their reads on CK. When I voted, it became fairly obvious to me that the vote was going to be either Jamie or GC (or perhaps a CFD on me), so that's when it became fairly finalized in my mind to vote Jamie.

  32. ISO #1532
    Thread Analyst Okosan's Avatar
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    Coooooo! (It's not even like the posts were, "Hey Jamie if you don't give me a reason to town read you I'm going to vote you" aka bringing more pressue. They were more like "Hard to see me voting anyone but Jamie" as in P#812)

    COOO! (Clearly your mind was already made up at that point tbh)

  33. ISO #1533
    Bandwagoner Aersoldorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capage (#1522)
    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1509)
    Great, so the info lynch on me would convince Capage that pragmatic is scum because my reads were pure (that's a lot of faith to put into me, I still could just have $#@!ty reads), and it would somehow convince GC that pragmatic is also town, because now I'm not bussing him and your entire read on Prag is that he's scum because I'm scum? Lol. Gonna be a no from me on info-lynching me then, chief.
    I have an independent sr on prag and you flipping town would add to it if it makes any sense.
    If you already sr Prag, why wait for Wikki to flip town? Just vote Prag and get your scum without sacrificing a townie to get there...? Seems a tad bit scummy to say that you're openly willing to mislynch a townie just to prove your point about someone else being scummy. Or am I missing something?

  34. ISO #1534
    Bandwagoner CerealKiller's Avatar
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    I'm honestly getting cold feet on the Pragmatic wagon, there’s 45 minutes left till EoD, and they haven’t shown up to respond, nor completed their quota. I don’t feel like lynching without hearing a defence.
    ASmiller would be a much more palatable lynch to me, because, as GCEDW pointed out, their current play style makes them completely useless to Town, unless they have a PR

  35. ISO #1535
    Bandwagoner CerealKiller's Avatar
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    Unvoting for now, pending explanation
    ##Unvote Pragmatic

  36. ISO #1536
    Soul Reader catgode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCEDW (#1524)
    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#1520)
    can we make a 3way tie for fun
    Lets just make the right lynch, catgode. Who do you suspect right now?
    i didnt intend for it to be the final result
    tho now i wish i did

    im having a number of doubts on Prag that I hope he can blow away maybe even today...

    need to decide between wikki and CK
    im having a slight vibe of wikki deep down not wanting to cooperate, and I like their wagoners more, but I don't want to decide solely on these fleety feelies.

  37. ISO #1537
    Thread Analyst GCEDW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aersoldorf (#1533)
    Quote Originally Posted by Capage (#1522)
    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1509)
    Great, so the info lynch on me would convince Capage that pragmatic is scum because my reads were pure (that's a lot of faith to put into me, I still could just have $#@!ty reads), and it would somehow convince GC that pragmatic is also town, because now I'm not bussing him and your entire read on Prag is that he's scum because I'm scum? Lol. Gonna be a no from me on info-lynching me then, chief.
    I have an independent sr on prag and you flipping town would add to it if it makes any sense.
    If you already sr Prag, why wait for Wikki to flip town? Just vote Prag and get your scum without sacrificing a townie to get there...? Seems a tad bit scummy to say that you're openly willing to mislynch a townie just to prove your point about someone else being scummy. Or am I missing something?
    I agree that Capage's reasoning is pretty off and very half baked, unless as I would guess he thinks there is an inherent difference between Pragmatic and wikkiden, but didn't say what it was.

  38. ISO #1538
    Thread Analyst Okosan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CerealKiller (#1534)
    I'm honestly getting cold feet on the Pragmatic wagon, there’s 45 minutes left till EoD, and they haven’t shown up to respond, nor completed their quota. I don’t feel like lynching without hearing a defence.
    ASmiller would be a much more palatable lynch to me, because, as GCEDW pointed out, their current play style makes them completely useless to Town, unless they have a PR
    Coooooo! (Translation: "I don't want to lynch this one semi inactive so let's lynch this other semi-inactive"
    Amazing. Will give us great info and help us out)

  39. ISO #1539
    Soul Reader catgode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CerealKiller (#1534)
    I'm honestly getting cold feet on the Pragmatic wagon, there’s 45 minutes left till EoD, and they haven’t shown up to respond, nor completed their quota. I don’t feel like lynching without hearing a defence.
    ASmiller would be a much more palatable lynch to me, because, as GCEDW pointed out, their current play style makes them completely useless to Town, unless they have a PR
    ASmiller is a worse lynch than Prag in that regard though.....?

  40. ISO #1540
    Thread Analyst GCEDW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CerealKiller (#1535)
    Unvoting for now, pending explanation
    ##Unvote Pragmatic
    Pragmatic has had a lot of time to explain their side of things, and still haven't been able to do it. I'll switch if they come back and provide good reasoning for why they aren't scum.

  41. ISO #1541
    Thread Analyst Violet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCEDW (#1515)
    Several of my concerns into Pragmatic, listed in P#1337 still need to be answered though, I'm conflicted because I feel like Pragmatic and wikkiden are either T/T or W/W, but I feel like pragmatic has been given plenty of chances to explain his side, and I haven't seen much to make me feel better of him. I will vote Prag here.
    ##Vote Pragmatic
    Do Pragmatic's acton actually make sense if he is a wolf? Like for example the post where he placed himself as most wolfy player? In my opinion not at all. The fact that he's not even here, has not cast a vote and is at 9 posts of the required 10 show that he is not taking necessary care of his survival, which is essential part of playing wolf.

  42. ISO #1542
    Bandwagoner Aersoldorf's Avatar
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    I really wish there was a like button here, so many takes I'd have given a thumbs up so far...

  43. ISO #1543
    Bandwagoner wikkiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCEDW (#1530)
    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1518)
    Quote Originally Posted by GCEDW (#1514)
    Quote Originally Posted by wikkiden (#1511)
    Well, it may seem unlikely to you that I flip town, but I *know* I'm going to flip town, so if you're going to argue it from an info perspective, you're going to need to dig deeper and try to figure out if it will actually give any information. Otherwise, argue to lynch me because you think I'm most likely to be scum, which fine, is a whole different discussion to have.
    That is a fair question. I did a ISO into you a few hours ago, and just felt like there was some questionable reasoning into your vote for Jamie, a sudden and unexplainable unbuilt upturn towards scum reading Pragmatic, and a lack of overall scum hunting.
    Those are reasons to scumread me, not to view me as an info-lynch. My argument here that you were responding to were that I thought I'm a rather terrible info lynch (capage was arguing I would be a good one), because I don't see what info you gain from me flipping town. The people who have been primarily pushing my lynch are in most people's towncores (though I disagree to an extent, but don't feel it's particularly useful to dive into those "harder targets" today), so I think me getting lynched and flipping town gets pretty much everyone off scot free.

    In terms of why you scumread me, I've done four deep dive ISO's this game: jamie, GC, pragmatic, CK. I came out of it scumreading jamie/pragmatic (which you can see in my posts), and null-town leaning GC and CK. So I really don't understand how you could say my votes came out of no where, when the two people I've been voting before EoD were my two scumreads. The argument that I haven't been doing a lot of scum hunting is fair, and my defense to that is still that I am overwhelmed and have been a possible wagon on both days, so it makes sense I would naturally focus my energy towards my competing wagons? Like, what does scumhunting from me in the capage/okosan/aerso/TK/asimiller side of things do for us right now?
    I do think you made a more concerted effort at EOD than many of the other players, and I appreciate that. As far as I've been able to see though, the reluctance from you and Pragmatic to scum hunt says to me that you don't want to give away a bunch of info from your reads if you are lynched. I understand it is difficult when you are falsely on a wagon, but the best way to help yourself is make reads and connections between the different players. If not Pragmatic, who else then? On death, scum hunting from everyone provides info based on which side they lie on and when they died.
    I've already been devoting an average of 2-3 hours per real life day to this game. I find the format difficult to keep up with, so it takes me a lot longer to process and respond to information. I understand that it would be helpful if I were to provide a full reads list on everybody, with reasoning and quoting, but to do so would take me several hours that I simply do not have the energy to invest. I think it's a bit of a reach to say anyone not actively scumhunting everyone is trying to conceal information.

    For what it's worth, and if I die, where my gut reads kinda lay atm is:

    Strong town: Relm, Aersoldorf
    Townlean: TK, Capage
    Null/town: GC, CK, Violet, Catgode
    Null/scum: Asimiller, chilly, Okosan
    Scum: Pragmatic

    But I know your next question to me would be to explain my reads, which is an incredibly fair question to ask and something I'm just not able to do right now, so that's why I have until now "concealed" it.

  44. ISO #1544
    Thread Analyst GCEDW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catgode (#1539)
    Quote Originally Posted by CerealKiller (#1534)
    I'm honestly getting cold feet on the Pragmatic wagon, there’s 45 minutes left till EoD, and they haven’t shown up to respond, nor completed their quota. I don’t feel like lynching without hearing a defence.
    ASmiller would be a much more palatable lynch to me, because, as GCEDW pointed out, their current play style makes them completely useless to Town, unless they have a PR
    ASmiller is a worse lynch than Prag in that regard though.....?
    I would agree, at least for today. Perhaps later we may need to take a chance and lynch them if they still can't get their act together. But, I don't think now is the time to do that.

  45. ISO #1545
    Thread Analyst Violet's Avatar
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    @catgode you're in position to tiebreak. The earlier you do, the more it sparks discussion and forces people to take stances.

  46. ISO #1546
    Thread Analyst Okosan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCEDW (#1540)
    Quote Originally Posted by CerealKiller (#1535)
    Unvoting for now, pending explanation
    ##Unvote Pragmatic
    Pragmatic has had a lot of time to explain their side of things, and still haven't been able to do it. I'll switch if they come back and provide good reasoning for why they aren't scum.
    Coooo! (So you hold your vote on Prag until the last hour of the day when clearly Prag hasn't been the most active, and then insist that they say something in that hour to convince you otherwise you're voting them?)

  47. ISO #1547
    Automatic Game Mod Mafia Host's Avatar
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    Season 7, Game 5: WARPLANES [The Mafia Championship] Day 2 Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    3 CerealKiller TK5141 (45), ASmiller (23), Aersoldorf (51)
    3 wikkiden Violet (54), Okosan (43), Capage (89)
    3 Pragmatic wikkiden (31), Relm (77), GCEDW (56)
    4 Not voting Chilly (11), Pragmatic (9), catgode (29), CerealKiller (27)

    View Vote History

    End day at majority is enabled. With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to reach majority.

    Day 2 ends at 4:00 PM EDT on Saturday, May 23rd, 2020. There are 1590264060000 remaining.

  48. ISO #1548
    Automatic Game Mod Mafia Host's Avatar
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    Season 7, Game 5: WARPLANES [The Mafia Championship] Day 2 Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    3 CerealKiller TK5141 (45), ASmiller (23), Aersoldorf (51)
    3 wikkiden Violet (54), Okosan (43), Capage (89)
    3 Pragmatic wikkiden (31), Relm (77), GCEDW (56)
    4 Not voting Chilly (11), Pragmatic (9), catgode (29), CerealKiller (27)

    View Vote History

    End day at majority is enabled. With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to reach majority.

    Day 2 ends at 4:00 PM EDT on Saturday, May 23rd, 2020. There are 1590264060000 remaining.

  49. ISO #1549
    Soul Reader catgode's Avatar
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    can we get an elaboration on chilly and okosan, please>

  50. ISO #1550
    Bandwagoner Aersoldorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafia Host (#1548)
    Season 7, Game 5: WARPLANES [The Mafia Championship] Day 2 Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    3 CerealKiller TK5141 (45), ASmiller (23), Aersoldorf (51)
    3 wikkiden Violet (54), Okosan (43), Capage (89)
    3 Pragmatic wikkiden (31), Relm (77), GCEDW (56)
    4 Not voting Chilly (11), Pragmatic (9), catgode (29), CerealKiller (27)

    View Vote History

    End day at majority is enabled. With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to reach majority.

    Day 2 ends at 4:00 PM EDT on Saturday, May 23rd, 2020. There are 1590264060000 remaining.
    What happened to Chilly?

    And how did ASmiller get to 23 posts? Can't remember anything of value they've actually said...

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Mugger

The Mugger is a mafia-aligned player that will gain the ability of any player killed by the mafia if they are the one carrying out the kill. The gained ability can be used only once by the Mugger on any future night, but the Mugger cannot kill and use a gained ability on the same night.