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Thread: Season 7, Game Spec: A Spec Chat Warrior Semi-Invitational

  1. ISO #1201
    Soul Reader Holyflare's Avatar
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    I am in the thread with a lot of people I have no opinion on, dunno what to tell you. I don't remember any of their posts other than those.

  2. ISO #1202
    Soul Reader Holyflare's Avatar
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    Can you tell me one memorable vanity post?

  3. ISO #1203
    spec chat hero iaafr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#1202)
    Can you tell me one memorable vanity post?
    vanity is a waterfall

  4. ISO #1204
    spec chat hero iaafr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#454)
    firekitten is like a waterfall

    waterfalls dont summarize their progressions
    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#484)
    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#450)
    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#435)
    I don’t think I can do it in a short paragraph. It would take multiple paragraphs. I think it would be much easier if you read through my posts.
    Exactly. You are not interested in getting me on board with ANY of your reads and you won't summarise anything succinctly to get me interested in interacting. It seems like you have no intention to get anyone to follow anything you think and would rather have me mindlessly waste my posts on how I approach the game instead, when it's quite clear if you read MY ISO and the paragraph you originally quoted what approach I'm used to/going for.

    Why are you not interested in making people see your point of view?
    Why should I be trying to convince you right now? I’m not interested in convincing anyone of my reads right now;It is not the time nor the place to do that. When end of day comes along I will probably try to influence the vote more, however right now I’m content posting my thoughts about the game and watching how people interact with me and others in the game.

    Now, let’s address the other part of the post. You made up in your mind somehow that I wouldn’t summarizes my thoughts, when that is simply false. I would, however I think summarizing my thoughts in a paragraph would be difficult, which is why I said it would be easier for you to read my posts instead. If you want my thoughts on the game right now, here they are:

    Right now I think Vanity is probably town. The way they have been interacting this game with other people, along with their reads, have felt townie to me. Later on this day I may re-evaluate this, however for right now I’m comfortable having them as a town lean.

    Right now I feel like Oats is a villager. At first they haven’t really done anything townie, however there was one post that they made that I just don’t think ever comes from a wolf. It has too much thoughts in it that a wolf wouldn’t think when making a read, because they already know the answer.

    Right now I am also tentatively leaning Town on Amrock, however I’m aware that they could easily fake this as a wolf, which is why I’m still watching what they are doing. I’m probably going to pay close attention to their end of day, because I feel like that would give a lot more information on their alignment.

    Now, earlier I mentioned I made a trap card. However it wasn’t intentionally laid and it wasn’t a very good one. What I did was talk about how you refusing to case me felt wolfy. I was wondering if you were ever going to comment on that, which you didn’t, which makes me lean village on you. I feel like you could have easily made a case against me to appease me, even though it would take some work to make it not look like bull$#@!. Yes, I know this contradicts my earlier thoughts regarding you “If they are a wolf who didn’t have a case against me it will be obvious”, however after thinking about it more I feel like you could pretty easily do it.

    Here’s my transparently villagery thoughts
    i just remembered this sequence

    i called him a waterfall

    and then he made a giant plinko board

  5. ISO #1205
    spec chat hero iaafr's Avatar
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    i guess he's outed then

  6. ISO #1206
    Soul Reader Holyflare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#1203)
    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#1202)
    Can you tell me one memorable vanity post?
    vanity is a waterfall
    I assume you mean stream of consciousness?

  7. ISO #1207
    spec chat hero iaafr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#17)
    2)

    Distinguishing real solving from fake solving.

    If there was an easy answer to this, then it would be a lot easier to be a villager.

    I'd say that one of the most fundamental things I look for is messy vs structured. Structured is maybe a bad way to put it, since of course lots of villagers put a lot of structure into their posts. Maybe "flowing from messiness into conversation" vs. "discreet points flowing into themselves."

    Ehh, not at all convinced that's better or more comprehensible. It's essentially the difference between spilling a bucket of paint onto a canvas, and trying to consciously paint a painting of a paint splatter.

    Real solving always flows from just like... random neurons firing when you read a post and some tiny part of your brain going "bad!" or "good!". And then you think about it for a couple seconds, and you explain to yourself why it's bad, and then you write a post where you translate that feeling into a couple sentences that hopefully let someone reading it see it through your eyes, take the same journey you did. But there's, like, a motion there. A movement. When we talk about villagers feeling like villagers because they're engaged, or relaxed, or "has a good thread presence," I think it's just shorthand for this.

    Real solving is like a waterfall - it's all moving in one direction generally but any individual moment can be almost random and nearly destructive in its chaos. But the further you step back away from it the easier it is to see how cohesive and flowing it really is.

    Fake solving is like a Plinko board. Yes, there's movement, but it's like... discreet steps, and it's always moving towards just a couple outcomes. An individual movement might look somewhat fluid, but if you look at the whole board, it's easy to see how structured and rigid it really is.

    Real solving:



    Fake solving:


  8. ISO #1208
    spec chat hero iaafr's Avatar
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    discrete*

  9. ISO #1209
    spec chat hero iaafr's Avatar
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    i gotta stop putting the asterisk on the wrong side

  10. ISO #1210
    spec chat hero iaafr's Avatar
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    like is it just me or did every single player out their alignment and the games just over

  11. ISO #1211
    Soul Reader Holyflare's Avatar
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    Very much just you

  12. ISO #1212
    Thread Analyst Ranmilia's Avatar
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    Woke up, reading up, pg20, @ me if you need me urgently.

  13. ISO #1213
    Soul Reader Holyflare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranmilia (#1212)
    Woke up, reading up, pg20, @ me if you need me urgently.
    Help me see it from your perspective. Why did you town read Tim for essentially saying your opening posts were NAI and not coming to conclusions?

  14. ISO #1214
    spec chat hero iaafr's Avatar
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    lock town never reevaluating

    Ampharos (caught litten the wolf)
    Chemist1422 (caught litten the wolf)
    hollowkatt (obvious villager)
    Holyflare (obvious villager)
    Paratroopa (obvious villager, voting litten the wolf)
    Ranmilia (obvious villager)
    sheepsaysmeep (obvious villager)
    vanity. (obvious villager)

    unsorted
    Amrock
    Dels
    oatsmaster
    Timsup2nothin

    lock wolf never reevaluating

    Litten (read ampharos case or his iso idk)
    nutella (check her iso for her progression on litten)

  15. ISO #1215
    spec chat hero iaafr's Avatar
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    ##Vote Litten

  16. ISO #1216
    spec chat hero iaafr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#1214)
    lock town never reevaluating

    Ampharos (caught litten the wolf)
    Chemist1422 (caught litten the wolf)
    hollowkatt (obvious villager)
    Holyflare (obvious villager)
    Paratroopa (obvious villager, voting litten the wolf)
    Ranmilia (obvious villager)
    sheepsaysmeep (obvious villager)
    vanity. (obvious villager)

    unsorted
    Amrock
    Dels
    oatsmaster
    Timsup2nothin

    lock wolf never reevaluating

    Litten (read ampharos case or his iso idk)
    nutella (check her iso for her progression on litten)
    actually move holyflare back down to unsorted

    gn

  17. ISO #1217
    spec chat hero iaafr's Avatar
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    also move nutella up to lock town never reevaluate

  18. ISO #1218
    GOAT Tier Litten's Avatar
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    What the $#@! kind of bull$#@! did I skim when being half awake?

  19. ISO #1219
    GOAT Tier Litten's Avatar
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    Now that I skimmed this, I’m going back to bed probably. After that I’m going to eat breakfast and then come back to settle this bull$#@!.

  20. ISO #1220
    Automatic Game Mod Mafia Host's Avatar
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    Season 7, Game Spec: A Spec Chat Warrior Semi-Invitational Day 1 Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    5 hollowkatt vanity. (100), sheepsaysmeep (58), Amrock (74), oatsmaster (71), nutella (82)
    3 Litten Ampharos (98), Paratroopa (30), iaafr (135)
    1 iaafr Litten (69)
    1 Ranmilia Holyflare (70)
    1 Dels Ranmilia (38)
    1 sheepsaysmeep hollowkatt (84)
    1 Holyflare Timsup2nothin (130)
    1 Chemist1422 Dels (91)
    1 Not voting Chemist1422 (50)

    View Vote History

    Day 1 ends at 8:00 PM EDT on Tuesday, June 30th, 2020. There are 1593561660000 remaining.

  21. ISO #1221
    plinko boards and waterfalls vanity.'s Avatar
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    i’m here for a very short amount of time

    spent most of my work break and downtime before going to work catching up

    amy v, not looking back

    loliaafr

    paratroopa’s read on dels is pretty villagery, gonna take dels off the table as a result

    kinda skimmed past amy’s larger case posts and will take a magnifying glass to them once i’m back on pc

  22. ISO #1222
    plinko boards and waterfalls vanity.'s Avatar
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    alright back to work see yall at around 11:30 am est

  23. ISO #1223
    Thread Analyst Ranmilia's Avatar
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    Hhhhmmmmkay, caught up. Quick picks:

    - Dels evaluation I think depends entirely on the earlygame and reading him at the instant I ask if he is a joat and he says yes. In that instant, is he:
    A. lost town with a flubbed experimental entry, trying to do some psychological appeasement thing at me, not really cognizant of being lead wagon with cause? or
    B. a demoralized and caught wolf grabbing a lifeline to escape pressure?

    Looks like everyone is now saying (A) so... all right then. I am going to close my eyes on it and go back to big chillin.

    - I did see Litten's dish of soft serve ice claim, and that is why I quietly moved him up to Not Voting There Today. It's not actually very soft, it's pretty frozen. If Litten is actually a Lycanroc, he's prepped to hop on the council if he's in danger today. In fact, I am expecting a high chance of him doing that as all three rolecards now, since nutella has floated a line of me VT.

    - The reason I moved off Holy, besides having other cases, has to do with the case on me that he flipped into. It... clarified his playstyle for me, such that the Tim case no longer felt sharply incongruent. It is a difficult style to work around. May be scum, I like the Rabbit case, and this quote from Amy in particular:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#1200)
    clarification: you were in thread with him a bunch, which i expected would give you a decent read on him in some direction. apparently this is not the case
    That is relating to Holy on Vanity, but that is exactly how I felt about Holy on Tim, and is the reason why I was ok with Sheep on Tim but not Holy on Tim.

    Sheep was (and still is?) doing catchup strafing runs as a main playstyle, and from that vantage point I get the "Tim is fluff" read.
    But that's not Holy's vantage point.
    I know Holy was there with us in the thread at the time, and was seeing Tim's posts in context and real time. I was there too. I came away with a positive read of Tim, roughly "not terrible for an early day 1 pre-work check in, is reading and saying some things" and since we had that similar vantage point, I would have expected Holy to come away with something closer to my takeaway than the Sheep read. He didn't. He also hasn't on Vanity, exact same thing, just not getting the same things other people are from what should be similar thread presence vantage points.

    It could be actual legit culture clash, or it could be different perspective because awoooo.

    ##Vote Holyflare

    Think I want to see where this goes for now, with one exception.

    @Holyflare
    If you are town, I need you to do something for us. Big Chillin. Go to Youtube, search Furret Walk 1 Hour and listen to it the whole way through.

    I am not interested in getting into a dogfight with you, or back and forthing over the needle-fine points of what constitutes "fluff posting" or "posting about fluff posting" four hours into day 1. That level of nitpicking is not my style and will just frustrate us both.

    I am more of a birds eye view, "mentally chunk things I consider similar together" style of mafia player. For me your Tim points aggregated to that one thing, "I felt he should have had stronger stances and he didn't," and I don't agree, because a) I thought he had some okay stances on things I cared about and b) I don't expect anyone to have that strong of a stance on anything at that time and position in the game.

  24. ISO #1224
    Soul Reader Holyflare's Avatar
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    I don't know why you all keep referencing me being in the thread at the same time as someone. I asked if everyone was American, went afk and came back to a slew of more Tim posts that I didn't like and ISOd him. When exactly was I in the thread at the same time as him?

    I'm exclusively phone posting too, I'm not f5ing waiting with baited breath getting a read on everyone. Just post my thoughts and try and narrow things down.

  25. ISO #1225
    Thread Analyst Ranmilia's Avatar
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    - Still not sold on Para. The reads he's posting are not disagreeable, but I haven't seen anything in making them that reflects much on Para himself.

    - There was a TALK ABOUT TIM here. It's gone now.

    - Gut compass saying reasonable chance of wolves within Sheep/Amrock but still letting those go to other people for now.

    @hollowkatt
    @Chemist1422

    Both of you have talked about being intimidated by the playerlist. This is interesting to me. Can you talk about how you see this playerlist from your perspective? Who is intimidating and why?

    ... because from my point of view, the three scariest names in this thread are the people who just crushed their champs quals, those being hollowkatt, mist and Tim.

  26. ISO #1226
    Thread Analyst Ranmilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#1224)
    I don't know why you all keep referencing me being in the thread at the same time as someone. I asked if everyone was American, went afk and came back to a slew of more Tim posts that I didn't like and ISOd him. When exactly was I in the thread at the same time as him?

    I'm exclusively phone posting too, I'm not f5ing waiting with baited breath getting a read on everyone. Just post my thoughts and try and narrow things down.
    Iiiiiinteresting

    How much of your play has been from ISOs? Can you elaborate on your... how to call it... play procedure? Like what is your mechanical process for reading the game?

  27. ISO #1227
    Soul Reader Holyflare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranmilia (#1226)
    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#1224)
    I don't know why you all keep referencing me being in the thread at the same time as someone. I asked if everyone was American, went afk and came back to a slew of more Tim posts that I didn't like and ISOd him. When exactly was I in the thread at the same time as him?

    I'm exclusively phone posting too, I'm not f5ing waiting with baited breath getting a read on everyone. Just post my thoughts and try and narrow things down.
    Iiiiiinteresting

    How much of your play has been from ISOs? Can you elaborate on your... how to call it... play procedure? Like what is your mechanical process for reading the game?
    Check my phone, see it's lost 20% in 5 minutes and it switches off at 50%. Charge phone, skim thread to catch up. Make mental note of people that say the same as I'm thinking as I'm going through, find posts I don't like. Question person on post I don't like, ISO if response bad.

    I only ISO my scum reads because I think I'm pretty good at finding townie tone from posts. The only people I've currently ISOd are Tim and Litten (at the start)

    New phone is arriving today so I don't have to be so conservative with battery.

  28. ISO #1228
    Soul Reader Holyflare's Avatar
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    I only joined this game to chill out after my qualifier but it's had more posts in half a day than halfway through day 2 in that game. Am I slacking big time? Yeah, most likely. Does it really bother me that a lot of the thread scum reads me? Eh, not really.

  29. ISO #1229
    Automatic Game Mod Mafia Host's Avatar
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    Season 7, Game Spec: A Spec Chat Warrior Semi-Invitational Day 1 Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    5 hollowkatt vanity. (102), sheepsaysmeep (58), Amrock (74), oatsmaster (71), nutella (82)
    3 Litten Ampharos (98), Paratroopa (30), iaafr (135)
    2 Holyflare Timsup2nothin (130), Ranmilia (41)
    1 iaafr Litten (69)
    1 Ranmilia Holyflare (73)
    1 sheepsaysmeep hollowkatt (84)
    1 Chemist1422 Dels (91)
    1 Not voting Chemist1422 (50)

    View Vote History

    Day 1 ends at 8:00 PM EDT on Tuesday, June 30th, 2020. There are 1593561660000 remaining.

  30. ISO #1230
    Soul Reader Holyflare's Avatar
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    I can tell that your view on Tim posts is wildly different to mine though. I think you're big time wrong on them but don't necessarily see you coming at that angle as a bad thing. I'd appreciate if you didn't defend people I was questioning or making a case on though, that's how I formulate a lot of reads.

  31. ISO #1231
    Thread Analyst Ranmilia's Avatar
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    Iiiinteresting. Duly noted, not sure I can full commit to that but feel free to ignore things like my Tim "defense" and work in parallel, it was not intended as like a full on defense "never vote Tim" shield.

  32. ISO #1232
    Soul Reader Holyflare's Avatar
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    I don't really understand iaafr posts. I feel like they're 5 different people in one moulding reads to some kind of sentiment. The last string of posts is just off.

  33. ISO #1233
    Responsible for #8 Chemist1422's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amrock (#989)
    ##Vote hollowkatt

    I'm actually going to sleep right now and this is legitimately my most confident wolfread

    Interested to hear amy's thoughts on litten because suddenly becoming paranoid again

    have a question for

    @Chemist1422 did you expect me to lock you as a villa so early this game? Like was that what your post was insinuating? Trying to figure out if you saying I should have locked you villa is villagery or wolfy tbh.
    I wasn’t saying you should I was trying to figure out what caused the disconnect

    still catching up

  34. ISO #1234
    Thread Analyst Ranmilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranmilia (#1225)

    @hollowkatt
    @Chemist1422

    Both of you have talked about being intimidated by the playerlist. This is interesting to me. Can you talk about how you see this playerlist from your perspective? Who is intimidating and why?

    ... because from my point of view, the three scariest names in this thread are the people who just crushed their champs quals, those being hollowkatt, mist and Tim.

    On reflection I am actually going to double down on this, go out on a limb and say that this is not just me, but a pervasive shared mood in the town. Just look at how much suspicion there is going towards exactly HK, Mist and Tim, all day long and often chalked up to general paranoia.

    The thread is scared of these people, because we just saw them wolf win. Probably more than we ought to be. I'm not saying it's not any of them, but it's something to keep in mind big picture wise.

  35. ISO #1235
    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
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    ##Vote Litten

    JOAT sheep

  36. ISO #1236
    Professional Mod Pesterer Timsup2nothin's Avatar
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    Whelp...

    Probably would have been better if Ran had just stayed out of it and let me deal with this "case" when I got home. Spilt milk.

    Since I am by no means a "solver" my objective as town is basically to stay out of the way and not give the wolves an easy mischop. Clearly, Holyflare is going to pivot back to his case on me, so I suppose I better deal with it.

    [*]Posted mostly fluff and no actual commitment to reads

    Charge is mostly true. I had $#@!posted like a fiend. This was also true of most everyone in the thread. It is NAI in most cases, and particularly so in mine. I never claimed to have any reads to be committed to, so, no, I had no particular commitment to any.

    [*]Has given AFK excuses when finally pressured

    This was, and remains, flat bull$#@!. One, if you don't like "AFK excuses," then quit using them yourself. Two, I was not then, and never have been "pressured." Three, even if you somehow think that a couple of gut read posts against me by Sheep constitutes "pressure" I had long since explained my schedule. Like right at the start.
    [*]Interacted with Litten's scummy post but then never went any further

    What exactly would you have liked for me to do? Light up a torch, grab a pitchfork, and go on a thirty hour death tunnel? I mean, I am capable of that but I've been told it isn't helpful. On top of that, I'm not particularly sure what you mean by "Litten's scummy post." I looked through Amy's case on Litten and can see it in a cumulative sense but the whole "I am a one post wunderkind and have spotted the key post that identifies a wolf and heroically wins the game for town" is not my gig.
    [*]Giving meek "I think x, y, z" posts but never taking an actual proper stance

    Yeah, meek is never my thing. If by "proper stance" you mean jumping to some wild conclusion based on a handful of $#@!posts, yeah I didn't do that. What of it?
    [*]Complained about fluff posting when people had already stopped fluff posting

    Did I? That really doesn't seem like me. I was pretty much enjoying the fluff posting. OH!!! Hey, look, your first "point" against me is that I was fluff posting! As to "people had already stopped fluff posting," maybe YOU had. There were a lot of people who hadn't. There were people who hadn't even started yet. I'm still $#@!posting intermittently.
    [*]When Oats question's his motives he justs says "Yeah, ok, I'm just parking my vote on you instead of actually thinking you're mafia" which detracts from the pressure entirely

    LOL...aren't you the one telling Rand to let people handle their own squabbles? I was unaware that Oats had any questions about my motives. When I voted for him I was pretty clear about why. His "vote every time I ask someone a question, even if the last person hasn't answered yet" RVSing bugged me no end. We discussed it when he had time. We worked it out. I told him cool and that I would find a better place for my vote when I got back. If he really wanted me to unvote on the spot I didn't notice him saying so.


    So, your case, point by point, was, and remains, crap.

    I said all of this before, but you were busy on your "why would you defend a scum like Tim" crusade and opted to ignore the fact that there was really no valid reasoning behind your continued second hand shading me to start with. So here we are.

    Now what?

    Reminder, I don't have a lot of time, so make sure you "put the pressure on" around the time I am gonna leave so you can shout "AHA!!!" and claim unearned success.

  37. ISO #1237
    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
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    I'm on your side Tim! The case was bad! (Sorry Holy ilu)

  38. ISO #1238
    GOAT Tier Litten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#1119)
    Using spoilers over quotes to make this post less obnoxious to scroll through; please humor me and open them.

    Below are a selection of posts I found noteworthy in Litten's ISO. I didn't go into this expecting to be writing a full-on wolfcase; unfortunately, I have written a full-on wolfcase. Enjoy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#76)
    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#69)
    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#68)
    Could you explain your thought process on Del’s posts. I have my thoughts on it, which is why I voted it, however I want to know what you were thinking when you said you self-wifom’ed the post.
    i was mostly just circling back and forth between "would dels do this as a villager" or "is this too wolfy for dels to do as a wolf", or even "would dels do this as a wolf"

    haven't come to a solid conclusion and don't know if i even will but from what i've seen from a lot of dels games this doesn't seem particularly villagery
    This mirrors my thought process where I was wondering if Del’s would do something like that as a wolf. However it’s different from yours when I decided “it’s good enough for my first vote”.

    speaking of which, this reminded me that I wanted to claim mafia goon half as a joke (After I got my Rolecard) in my opening posts to see how people would react to the joke in the first day. I then proceeded to forgot about it until now.

    So here, I wanna talk about a wolfread that I've seen come to fruition more times than it's had any right to. Open the spoiler within the quote and swirl that around in your head. It's undeniably an awkward phrase, but what EXACTLY is so awkward about it?

    It's the parenthetical. It's the "After I got my Rolecard". See, wolves are paranoid about phrasing - they'll tack on extra words to make sure something doesn't look too clipped, too TMI-y. I saw Reddboiler use this D1 against a wolf many moons ago, and I had it (unsuccessfully, but correctly) used against me in the Voxx 9er. When wolves feel insecure about the optics of statements they're making, they add more words to correct the issue.

    So w!Litten here is like "haha I'll joke that I was gonna scumclaim, that'll make me look towny for jokingly open wolfing", but then he gets paranoid. He's worried the joke might somehow be a perspective slip, so he adds that parenthetical so that everyone KNOWS that he had the idea after rand and KNOWS that it came from him as a villager. It's unnecessary. It's wolfy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#92)
    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#88)
    hollow do you genuinely think litten is wolfing rn?
    Going to be honest, when I first read their post where they voted me my first thought was “I don’t really believe that you believe this”. Not sure if it’s wolfy or not, however.

    Ironically enough, I struggle to believe that Litten believes this. If you think hk doesn't believe the post he made accussing Litten of openwolfing, you either think he's scum making $#@! up, or you think he's town $#@!posting... and the way Litten's going about it really doesn't make it sound like he thinks he's joking. This is legitimate shade that he tries to temper with that last sentence, because he suddenly realizes that hollowkatt's joking and he doesn't feel comfortable walking it all the way back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#100)
    Quote Originally Posted by hollowkatt (#96)
    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#88)
    hollow do you genuinely think litten is wolfing rn?
    lol $#@! no

    wait, maybe, that's a lotta tryhard and we're still in rvs. Can I change my answer?
    Hollowkatt rolled wolf. This is a tragedy.

    Quoted this one mostly to point out that Litten and hollowkatt still aren't w/w.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#211)
    Quote Originally Posted by oatsmaster (#186)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranmilia (#14)
    EPISODE II: THE FOUNDING OF THE COUNCIL OF JOATS

    Hi, my name is Ranmilia and this is

    How

    To

    BIG

    SWAG

    TOWN


    102


    with your professor, Ranmilia the Hellcat.

    Lesson 1: HOW TO POWER JOAT LIKE A KASHA

    The recipe is as follows:

    I am hardclaiming JOAT and hereby declare the following town strat: that every other game was wrong about how many JOATS are in this setup.

    There are not two JOATs. There are five.

    I hereby call upon the other four JOATs to claim when they feel that it is appropriate to do so, and join me in forming the Council of JOATs, from which point we will continue working together to identify and protect the town and dig out and eliminate the Mafia. Take whatever night actions you feel are right.

    (Four-ish, I'm not married to the exact number five, we'll see how it plays out.)

    Normally I would leave it there and have faith in town to recognize the strengths of this strategy, without spelling it out for scum who don't have the same vantage point. But this is a teaching game and I realize not everyone will be on the same page, so here's an overview on why we're doing this:

    - It lets the true JOATs find each other and target abilities more easily. (Yes, of course I am aware there are only two 'real' JOATs. Roll with it.) Track and Motion Detect in the first cycle are incredibly weak at finding scum, since they can only find a single member of the scumteam's choice. But what they CAN do very well is find and verify the other real JOAT. A track to someone who doesn't die is a private hard confirm, a positive motion detect is weaker but still fairly strong corroboration, and a negative motion detect is proof that person is not a true JOAT. Giving the real JOATs direction for these abilities is very valuable, it significantly ups the odds the real JOATs can find and then trust one another WITHOUT immediate public outing. We even open the door to a small potential of getting two successful doctor protects and gaining a mislim, something that is impossible with basic claim strats.

    - Having some VTs on the council protects the true JOATs by giving them cover. Scum are already trying to find and kill the real JOATs, and they already have an information advantage. We can counteract that by giving them false targets. Simple as that.

    - It formalizes the "towncore" structure that's popular to do in this meta anyway. Formalizing and organizing game concepts helps town in day discussion.

    - We take the initiative and force scum to make decisions on how they are going to deal with this. Could they choose to infiltrate? Sure. Will they? Infiltrating and trying to fake being a real JOAT making the scum kill is near suicidal, infiltrating and trying to play a VT fake claiming puts a giant spotlight on their head. If things are going well for town, and they will be, the truths of people's alignments should be coming to the surface anyway, we should have better reads on scum who are pressed into jumping on a gambit play. If they don't? Great, we got a big block of town who should have an even easier time clearing themselves.

    Of course there will eventually come a time of reckoning when the truth must be revealed and people will have to retract. People have shied away from this strategy because they fear it going poorly. I think that fear is overblown and I trust that we can handle it responsibly.
    ##Vote Ranmilia
    Can you succinctly explain the town benefits for your strategy?
    What if we want to elim someone who claims joat?
    My first impression when reading this post is this comes from a wolf who doesn’t understand the difference between “Being scum” and “doing something that isn’t beneficial in your mind”, but then he proceeded to vote everyone who he talked about in his next posts.

    This has already been touched on, so I'll be brief: this post is pointless filler. It looks considerate but it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#236)
    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#233)
    Quote Originally Posted by sheepsaysmeep (#224)
    tone is maybe the wrong term. try gut.

    his reads on you and litten were overexplained. not something i'd wolfread for some random person, but im not used to chem starting a game like that
    that...

    doesn't help at all. i actually liked mist's read on me which if why i was ok with giving him a mild townlean. even revisiting it it doesn't read as a wolf overexplaining.
    I had the opposite impression. If you are town, reading you as a villager would be a pretty easy thing to do as a wolf because you are acting villagery. Thinking about it now, if I remember right people were town reading me before him saying I was being performative, so him going against the grain right there looks villagery? I think? I don’t know where I’m going with this thought.

    Litten is in the middle of explaining his read on Mist to vanity, saying that they're townread on vanity felt like a wolf going with the flow, when he realizes that that's contradictory with Mist's other read - a scumread of Litten, seemingly against the grain of the thread in general. I don't think this is an inherently wolfy progression of thoughts, but I dislike how Litten handles it, trailing off into a weak "I don't know where I'm going with this" instead of making any attempt to really reconcile the conflicting reads into a coherent picture on the slot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#280)
    Quote Originally Posted by oatsmaster (#278)
    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#274)
    ...where did I say that would make him town? Are you actually reading my posts.
    “Not just a wolf bullshitting here implies 2 things,
    1. In your opinion, Town wouldn’t do what what holyflare is doing
    2. That if he does what you want him to do, he is thus “not a wolf bullshitting here”, and therefore townier”

    I could’ve chosen words better but townier is what I would prefer to have said, so why is holyflare making a case on you townier
    What I meant is that if Holyflare is a wolf there, there’s a possibility that they had absolutely no intention to actually case me, however they said they would to seem more townie. By me asking if they could case me, I force them to make up a case against me, which I could read into to see if he’s bullshiting the case against me. I don’t know what I necessarily expect to see in a case against me for it to be townie, however I think I can look at a case and see if there’s actual suspicion in it, or they just made up stuff in order to seem like they had a case. Does that make sense?

    Speaking of which, the fact that Holy ignored me and said they do what they want is probably rand wolf.

    I'm not sure if Litten's realized that they've admitted it here, but this whole "asking Holyflare for a case" thing is never ending with Litten townreading Holyflare. If Holyflare cases Litten, of course Litten's never going to be satisfied with the results - if Litten's a villager, HF's wrong, and if Litten's a wolf he has a vested interest in shading the case. So HF tells him to $#@! off... and Litten scumreads him anyways.

    Litten later says he was baiting HF with that last line, but also says (in the same post!) that it was an unintentional bait, so we do have to take this last line at face value, and at no point does the previously-hyperexplainy Litten make an attempt to say why HF declining is >rand wolf, given that he's previously called isolated against-the-grainness from Mist a villagery trait.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#374)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist1422 (#362)
    I am once again feeling outclassed by this playerlist
    This is a problem I feel like some people feel when they are a villager in a game, and then they see other people (presumably villagers?) go super deep into their reads when reading other people. It doesn’t really matter whether or not you deep analyze someone’s posts, it doesn’t even matter whether you know the other people in a game. What it does matter however is that you still try to give your thoughts on the game, regardless of whether or not someone has already said what you were thinking but better. Your goal in the game is to be transparently obvious villager, it doesn’t really matter if you are right or not. Anyway, this is just kind of a thought-post not really related to the game that much, I just feel like some people have felt that they aren’t doing as much because someone said what you were thinking before you did, ect.

    @hollowkatt regarding your recent push on Vanity, did you town read him before that?

    Reasonable Wolf archetype. Way too many words to say "bro relax just play the game". I think this post is like half the length in v!Litten worlds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#421)
    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#414)
    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#400)
    Can you talk to me why you feel like town reading people is pulling teeth?
    Sure, doc!

    Barely anyone seems to offer their proper thoughts about anything, they all seemed thinly veiled with subtext. Nobody (apart from sheep now) seems to share my thought process or game style. I would have hoped Dels did because he commented on how he liked my entrance in my qualifier game and how it's something he would do in spec chat but, again, he's been super underwhelming too. There are stones that I assumed would be turned that just weren't.

    Many people are talking past each other and not trying to come to some consensus or getting people to affirm their reads. All playing for their own agenda currently.

    I think Amrock, sheep are really the only two that have tried to get people's thoughts on people they're scum reading/town reading to any kind of meaningful extent that I remember.
    I feel like this isn’t true? I feel like I have been very transparent this game with my thoughts. I think what you are talking about is culture shock, where you have a different play style then people in the game. Right now we are in the stage where we are talking about our reads and thoughts, in order to provoke reactions from people so we can make more reads and thoughts. That’s why it feels like everyone’s having their own agenda right now, because in a way they are. However, you should expect this to be different later in the game, this is mostly because it’s D1 when we have little information.

    If you want to talk with someone, how about you talk with me. What do you feel is most important to do right now?

    This is... not how you talk to someone you're scumreading. You don't dismiss their difficulties finding townreads as "culture shock", explain it for a paragraph, and then move on - you dig into why. I think Litten's an inquisitive enough person that he'd press harder on HF's stone-turning comments, or (ironically enough) point harder to his own behaviors. Instead he slips back into Reasonable Wolf and goes with "aha! culture clash! " It's nonsequitir and it doesn't flow with the rest of Litten's line of interactions with Holyflare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#484)
    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#450)
    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#435)
    I don’t think I can do it in a short paragraph. It would take multiple paragraphs. I think it would be much easier if you read through my posts.
    Exactly. You are not interested in getting me on board with ANY of your reads and you won't summarise anything succinctly to get me interested in interacting. It seems like you have no intention to get anyone to follow anything you think and would rather have me mindlessly waste my posts on how I approach the game instead, when it's quite clear if you read MY ISO and the paragraph you originally quoted what approach I'm used to/going for.

    Why are you not interested in making people see your point of view?
    Why should I be trying to convince you right now? I’m not interested in convincing anyone of my reads right now;It is not the time nor the place to do that. When end of day comes along I will probably try to influence the vote more, however right now I’m content posting my thoughts about the game and watching how people interact with me and others in the game.

    Now, let’s address the other part of the post. You made up in your mind somehow that I wouldn’t summarizes my thoughts, when that is simply false. I would, however I think summarizing my thoughts in a paragraph would be difficult, which is why I said it would be easier for you to read my posts instead. If you want my thoughts on the game right now, here they are:

    Right now I think Vanity is probably town. The way they have been interacting this game with other people, along with their reads, have felt townie to me. Later on this day I may re-evaluate this, however for right now I’m comfortable having them as a town lean.

    Right now I feel like Oats is a villager. At first they haven’t really done anything townie, however there was one post that they made that I just don’t think ever comes from a wolf. It has too much thoughts in it that a wolf wouldn’t think when making a read, because they already know the answer.

    Right now I am also tentatively leaning Town on Amrock, however I’m aware that they could easily fake this as a wolf, which is why I’m still watching what they are doing. I’m probably going to pay close attention to their end of day, because I feel like that would give a lot more information on their alignment.

    Now, earlier I mentioned I made a trap card. However it wasn’t intentionally laid and it wasn’t a very good one. What I did was talk about how you refusing to case me felt wolfy. I was wondering if you were ever going to comment on that, which you didn’t, which makes me lean village on you. I feel like you could have easily made a case against me to appease me, even though it would take some work to make it not look like bull$#@!. Yes, I know this contradicts my earlier thoughts regarding you “If they are a wolf who didn’t have a case against me it will be obvious”, however after thinking about it more I feel like you could pretty easily do it.

    Here’s my transparently villagery thoughts

    I don't actually hate this one. There are things I can nitpick - the Amrock read, for example is noncommittal in a way that comes from wolves more often than not - but I think the other reads are fine, and I actually think the paragraph about Holyflare could very easily come from a villager. Here's my issue, though:

    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#486)
    I refuse to believe anyone can wolf read me after that btw.
    Any townpoints? Negated. Litten is way too proud of that post for me to feel comfortable. It's a good but not great post and it shouldn't townclear him, and he should KNOW it shouldn't townclear him. It reminds me of how I feel about some of my wolfposts that I feel should catapult me into the towncore but don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#744)
    Can someone tell me how Hollowkatt pushes their agenda as a wolf? Because right now, I’m looking through their posts and there’s several points in their ISO that I feel like wouldn’t be the move that an optimal wolf would make.

    Like, for instance. The vanity vote at 369 seems pretty bad if they are a wolf. The thread has been saying Vanity were a villager, and I feel like if Hollow was a wolf they would come to that conclusion as well in their progression instead of trying to push Vanity. (I’m probably going to bookmark this post so I don’t forget, but there’s a weird possibility Hollow is a wolf and Vanity is also a wolf, and that’s why they feel comfortable pushing Vanity as a way to distance. Not going to pursue that right now, however that is something to keep in mind).

    It just feels like they been stumbling over themselves if they are a wolf.
    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#752)
    I feel like I’m approaching this game really weird. I have had reasons to town read most of the people suspected this game, which is making me reconsider if I’m actually playing this game right lmao.
    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#754)
    I think I feel more comfortable with town reading Holy/Oats rather then Hollowkatt though.

    Don’t mind me, I’m just rambling.

    I grouped these together because I want to talk about something that cropped up in the Voxx 9er: what I like to call the ZOMG Paradigm. Credit to Sunbae for originating this read - frankly I think we should all be sheeping Sunbae a little more in our everyday lives.

    To paraphrase, the ZOMG Paradigm is essentially the notion that in very strong playerlists, most wolves will struggle to form actual scumreads, and thus have a vested interest in creating a thread environment where the prevailing mood is "ZOMG EVERYONE IS SO VILLAGERY HOW ARE WE GOING TO SOLVE THISSSSSSSSSS". I'm not sure we're QUITE there yet, but I find the quoted Litten posts to be pretty good examples of performative ZOMGing; the hollowkatt read isn't heinous in and of itself, but combined with the paranoia about the top wagons (and somehow missing Mist) it all feels very... performative. We're back to the word performative.

    Speaking of performative, in one of the above quotes Litten mentions bookmarks. This isn't the only time:

    Quote Originally Posted by Litten (#747)
    Quote Originally Posted by hollowkatt (#514)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#375)
    My intention was to help Ranmilia. I thought Ranmilia was cueing me to claim JOAT. I thought the reason for this was that she was worried no townies would fakeclaim for cover, and therefore wanted me to get the ball rolling on it. I have no interest in the council or in any other JOAT-related things because I like mountainous and don't care about roles, and don't have any thoughts on them.
    why would Ranmilia cue you specifically to claim joat? that phrasing seems off/super specific to me
    Oh yeah this reminds me to put a bookmark that Dels/Ramilia arent W/W, thanks.


    And I remember there being more, though I can't be assed to quote them.

    Here's the thing: there's a way to bring up bookmarks that's fine and effective. I though Paratroopa's was pretty decent, given that it marked the momentous occasion of using the feature for the first time ever (which, incidentally, is something I've still yet to do!) But the way Litten goes about it is very, again, performative. He doesn't need to say that he's going to bookmark that post to call it not w/w, he can just call it not w/w. He wants us to think he's doing more longer-term solving than he actually is.

    ---

    Amrock, I know you said LAMIST is in Litten's townrange, but I don't think this case is entirely predicated on LAMIST. I think my main sticking point is that he's not living up to his own hype. He trumpets about how he's made all his thought processes super transparent, and then makes strange unexplained statements or half-connections that don't go anywhere. He says he should be locktown for thoroughly mediocre posts. He brags about bookmarking things that don't matter. And he does wolfy $#@! in between.

    None of this stands up to scrutiny. Think he's just a wolf.

    It's not me. It will never be me. At any interval in which you thought "Litten might be mafia" erase it from your memory banks because it might as well not even exist. People will remember me not as the person who played mafia, rather the person who wasn't mafia. I don't care if I never make any other significant accomplishment on MU as long as people understand that in this game I will never flip mafia. I want it written on my tombstone and I want it passed down my generation so if by chance my offspring plays Mafia you are all reminded of the time you lynched me and I wasn't mafia. Under no circumstance in this game will I ever flip mafia. When the universe undergoes heat death millions of years from now and the last star burns out and existence itself is torn asunder, somewhere in the desolated cosmos there will be my last reverberations spreading far and wide that I was never mafia.

    Now that I have made my daily copy pasta, it is time to explain why you are wrong. You are wrong because I’m a villager. I really don’t care that much about your reasoning for your case. When I look at the reasoning I can see where you are coming from, however I know that your you are incorrect on me. I’m looking at your case as a whole, and I don’t think you are the type of wolf to make a big case against someone D1 who other people were town reading up until now, in order to get them lynched. I feel like if you are a wolf there’s much better options for you today that require less dirt on your hands. I could be wrong on this, I could have entirely misread the game state and other people in it. You could of had partners up to being lynched and decided that it would have been better to powerwolf this game. However, I don’t think this is the case, and I’m just going to assume that you are a villager now and re-evaluate you later if you are still alive.

  39. ISO #1239
    Professional Mod Pesterer Timsup2nothin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#1237)
    I'm on your side Tim! The case was bad! (Sorry Holy ilu)
    Okay, I have very roomy pockets.

    I also have little time and very few posts to work with, so do me a favor and carry that torch since I'm pretty sure Holyflare is gonna try to bury me after I go to work.

  40. ISO #1240
    Soul Reader Holyflare's Avatar
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    I mean I don't think any of you understand how time works or something lol. Have you all suddenly got amnesia where you all think Tim played for like 5 minutes in the $#@! posting phase and disappeared? That was not and is not the case.

  41. ISO #1241
    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
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    I dunno what to tell you, man. Tim's posts didn't stand out from anyone elses to me, his attitude was fine, he had some nice real points mixed in with the $#@!posting, and he left when he say he would.

  42. ISO #1242
    Soul Reader Holyflare's Avatar
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    I'm not interested in filling the thread with pages of argument, I call it as I see it. I've even reread your ISO at least 2 times to make sure I didn't misconstrue anything and I just reach the same conclusions.

  43. ISO #1243
    Professional Mod Pesterer Timsup2nothin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#1240)
    I mean I don't think any of you understand how time works or something lol. Have you all suddenly got amnesia where you all think Tim played for like 5 minutes in the $#@! posting phase and disappeared? That was not and is not the case.
    Nor to the best of my knowledge has anyone claimed that it is.

    What is your attempted point here?

  44. ISO #1244
    Soul Reader Holyflare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#1241)
    I dunno what to tell you, man. Tim's posts didn't stand out from anyone elses to me, his attitude was fine, he had some nice real points mixed in with the $#@!posting, and he left when he say he would.
    How is this relevant?

  45. ISO #1245
    Season 4 Champion Dels's Avatar
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    Didn't you say he made AFK excuse only when getting pressure? He said his schedule in advance afair

  46. ISO #1246
    Professional Mod Pesterer Timsup2nothin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#1242)
    I'm not interested in filling the thread with pages of argument, I call it as I see it. I've even reread your ISO at least 2 times to make sure I didn't misconstrue anything and I just reach the same conclusions.
    Amazing how hard it is to steer a closed mind around confirmation bias, isn't it?

    Or are you just a wolf that got hooked on what you thought was LHF and now you can't figure how to let go?

  47. ISO #1247
    Soul Reader Holyflare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dels (#1245)
    Didn't you say he made AFK excuse only when getting pressure? He said his schedule in advance afair
    I said that it is overwhelmingly more likely that mafia posts their mundane 4 hour schedule after getting pressured which is completely different from someone afking when they said they would imo.

  48. ISO #1248
    Thread Analyst Ranmilia's Avatar
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    @Litten

    You wanna join us in the Council, or no?

  49. ISO #1249
    GOAT Tier Litten's Avatar
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    Community
    Throne Of Lies
    AKA
    FK, Firekitten
    Pronouns
    he/him/his/his/himself
    Gender
    Iaafr I’m pretty confident on being a villager. When I’m looking at his recent posts regarding me, his progression doesn’t really make sense. He goes from town reading me, to assuming that I’m an outted wolf. However I feel like the way iaafr did that is out of his wolf range. Wolves like to have progression on stuff, and wolves like to make sense. I feel like even though Rabbit is Rabbit, he would have put more effort into his progression there and he would have not have me as outted wolf when I’m not a wolf.

  50. ISO #1250
    GOAT Tier Litten's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    somewhere
    Posts
    12,190
    Community
    Throne Of Lies
    AKA
    FK, Firekitten
    Pronouns
    he/him/his/his/himself
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranmilia (#1248)
    @Litten

    You wanna join us in the Council, or no?
    I don’t really think I need the Councils protection today. I’m going to bleed villager and hopefully not bleed out N1.

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Thug

The Thug may each night beat up a player, nullifying their vote for the next day phase.