Hydra Event 2020: Game 1, Farters Among Us

[orangeandblack5]

I don't remember post caps last year

[Hally]

agree that this amount of hyperposting is probably anti-town in a regular game, but this isn't a regular game, and a bunch of townies jerked each other off into oblivion via hyperposting and left the mafia out in the cold

i guess there’s two separate questions to unpack

1) did the high activity hurt town? and 2)was it straining/overwhelming/unenjoyable to keep up with?

i guess it didn’t end up hurting town overall because we did win. but i would venture a guess that at least a handful of people itg would say that the high activity negatively impacted their ability to participate and enjoy the game and may have stressed them out. and i think some of those people would be villagers. i know dizzy was one but he was also busy. i also found it a bit exhausting to keep up with and i was out posting most people

i dunno, you may be right that the high activity helped us box wolves out of the game and get the win in the end. i can’t really say. but i think it’s also important to think about whether the high activity made the game less enjoyable for ppl, because ultimately games are supposed to be fun and of a significant portion of the players felt their enjoyment was negatively impacted by the high activity that’s important and should be addressed somehow. i think that’s what mist was getting at

the enjoyable argument is a weird one i think.

if there are people that enjoy by having high WIM and hyperposting and there are people who do not like hyperposting and do not have fun because it's harder for them to join the game - how do we set a balance?

specifically, if majority of the people (let's say 10/17) are people who thrive and enjoy high posting games along with few people who don't mind extreme posting and still can have fun and the game ended up being overall pretty good (such as the case was in this game) the game was still 'enjoyable' or is it 'not enjoyable' because 7/17 people didn't have a good time? and this obviously changes case by case too

i think you raise a good point. it may be that some people would find a post cap to be less enjoyable while others would find not having one very unenjoyable. i think like with most things it’s probably impossible to make everyone entirely happy because not everyone wants the same thing like you point out. i think maybe the solution would be to have the post cap be generous enough that those who like to post a lot don’t feel too inhibited but at least have something in place so that the activity can’t get toooooo out of control. i don’t know really. that’s something the organizers will have to figure out how to balance if they decide to have a post cap next year, but i think it’s probably possible to come up with some cap that at least is workable for both ends of the spectrum

[Hally]

I don't remember post caps last year

oh hrm. i thought i remembered someone saying that but i guess not

[WIMbot]

if we're talking about fun I find post capped games less fun because it restricts my posting

- alison

[El-ahrairah]

Aw, we died? RIP Fishing for Fur

Well played, Town! You played a pretty solid game and while I'm kinda disappointed we couldn't scrape by for another day, I think the amount of work some of you put in was a deserved win tbh.

Someone asked about Catboomers? They pasted their discord chat into the thread, we had no choice but to kill them.

@Ampharos I don't know what your town range is, but when I was ISOing your slot, nothing you did or said looked wolfy to me. That's why when I was casing you I was like 95% using Dya's posts to shade you - I couldn't really twist any of yours to look bad

Re: activity. Yeah, waking up to between 1000-1500 new posts on the first 3 days was.... it wasn't enjoyable. It would've taken 3-4 hours of reading to catch up on all that, during which time another 500 posts would have been made, basically meaning I was always catching up and never actually playing in real time. I drowned in the last 17er I played in which ended at 95 pages, and this one ended at 168 pages, so there was always going to be a massive amount of content I couldn't comment on.

Overall, I mostly had fun, but for me the fun was heavily skewed towards wolf chat. A large portion of D1 ITG was a circle of people who knew each other talking to and about each other, and largely ignoring everyone else. I probably shouldn't complain because Blaze was in that circle and getting TRd for it at the time. This may also have been exacerbated by the fact that for a good chunk of Euro time, the activity dropped as everyone else slept. I did find it a bit annoying as a wolf, but it also makes me glad I did not rand Town because I am considerably less patient when I'm Town and probably would've spent most of the first 2 days being angry. That said, cliques are always gonna be a thing and it was good for some of our team, but me individually, I intensely dislike having to shout at people to stop ignoring me.

Overall it was a fun game that I wish I could've contributed more to, especially in terms of support John's massive effort during the busy times. However, I would only play another 17er hydra if it involved a post came. This is the second 17er hydra I've dropped completely behind and felt ineffective in, so I just don't think this size of game is for me.

Thanks for hosting, Dobby, congrats again to Town, and thanks to all my wolfbros for being an amazing team and for loads of $%#!s n giggles in wolf chat.

-El

[Hally]

i wonder if it would be possible to have only some games with a post cap. as in, maybe have that be an option to check on the scheduling form and have like one or two games for that. that would probably be the alternative to having all games with a post cap. i don’t know though, i imagine it’s already a logistical nightmare to do scheduling for this event and that would add another thing for the organizers to have to try to accommodate. but maybe it’s feasible? i really have no idea

[El-ahrairah]

I have no idea why I just signed my post when I never bothered signing my posts in the hydra.

[Hally]

i wonder if it would be possible to have only some games with a post cap. as in, maybe have that be an option to check on the scheduling form and have like one or two games for that. that would probably be the alternative to having all games with a post cap. i don’t know though, i imagine it’s already a logistical nightmare to do scheduling for this event and that would add another thing for the organizers to have to try to accommodate. but maybe it’s feasible? i really have no idea

or i guess this is sort of already a thing with people getting to choose what game size they prefer. but maybe having an additional thing where you can opt into a “light” hydra game that’s smaller and has a lower post cap specifically so people who don’t have a lot of time can still enjoy the event. but again, i don’t really know how feasible this is from a logistical standpoint or how great the demand would be

[El-ahrairah]

i wonder if it would be possible to have only some games with a post cap. as in, maybe have that be an option to check on the scheduling form and have like one or two games for that. that would probably be the alternative to having all games with a post cap. i don’t know though, i imagine it’s already a logistical nightmare to do scheduling for this event and that would add another thing for the organizers to have to try to accommodate. but maybe it’s feasible? i really have no idea

or i guess this is sort of already a thing with people getting to choose what game size they prefer. but maybe having an additional thing where you can opt into a “light” hydra game that’s smaller and has a lower post cap specifically so people who don’t have a lot of time can still enjoy the event. but again, i don’t really know how feasible this is from a logistical standpoint or how great the demand would be

The 13er hydras are a lot smaller and more manageable tbh. I don't think all hydras need a post cap and I don't think all 17ers should have one because some people like to play without. But it would be nice to have the option to opt into a capped 17er.

[Value Over Replacement]

1) did the high activity hurt town? and 2)was it straining/overwhelming/unenjoyable to keep up with?

1.) No, I think most of the towns in middle and end game had innate ability to keep up and exist inside the feverishly high posting game that this was, know how to keep track of things as time flowed and understand that there will be things that are missed, and properly organize thoughts and moments to call back to for reference. There wasn't very much information overload wrt how this town (specifically after like day 3) handled things and went over stuff.

2.) Absolutely, 100% an unenjoyable experience to feel like I'm stuck in thread and that every moment I'm taking off from the game was time I felt I should be doing something to make sure that we were on a correct path and to try and be some amount of townie. When I signed up for a 48/24 I was expecting the game flow to be much different than this, instead I got a 12/12 mash. Very draining and I'm considering outting my other hydra game because I'm just so incredibly done.

And yeah I'm obviously one of the larger offenders of this (I'm posting from the second highest posting account in the game) and I probably could've just not done that. I think I started with trying to match the ecosystem of the game and then was in a PoE position where I felt obligated to just be a WIM force. Idk, don't really know how to stop that trend without it being a game-wide deal that everyone is more or less chilling.

not really sure where I'm going with this but I did want to apologize for being a definite huge cause of that issue.

-poof

[Hally]

1) did the high activity hurt town? and 2)was it straining/overwhelming/unenjoyable to keep up with?

1.) No, I think most of the towns in middle and end game had innate ability to keep up and exist inside the feverishly high posting game that this was, know how to keep track of things as time flowed and understand that there will be things that are missed, and properly organize thoughts and moments to call back to for reference. There wasn't very much information overload wrt how this town (specifically after like day 3) handled things and went over stuff.

2.) Absolutely, 100% an unenjoyable experience to feel like I'm stuck in thread and that every moment I'm taking off from the game was time I felt I should be doing something to make sure that we were on a correct path and to try and be some amount of townie. When I signed up for a 48/24 I was expecting the game flow to be much different than this, instead I got a 12/12 mash. Very draining and I'm considering outting my other hydra game because I'm just so incredibly done.

And yeah I'm obviously one of the larger offenders of this (I'm posting from the second highest posting account in the game) and I probably could've just not done that. I think I started with trying to match the ecosystem of the game and then was in a PoE position where I felt obligated to just be a WIM force. Idk, don't really know how to stop that trend without it being a game-wide deal that everyone is more or less chilling.

not really sure where I'm going with this but I did want to apologize for being a definite huge cause of that issue.

-poof

i don’t think you specifically were the cause of it. it was more like a game wide “ecosystem” thing as you say where a lot of high activity players kinda fed off each other and it ended up spiraling out of control. i do apologize for my part in it too though, because i guess ultimately it comes down to each of the players to dial it back and i failed at that on my end too. i’m also sorry if the pressure we put on your slot made you feel a sense of obligation to live in the thread the way you did and that it was so stressful for you

i do hope there can be some measure implemented to stop people from feeling that expectation in the first place, but it may come down to us as individuals to be more mindful of how much we post and how much we expect others to post and overall just being gentler with people who don’t have the same amount of time to commit. because i felt there were times where i was maybe a bit rude with expecting people to keep up more than they were and perhaps not being as cognizant as i should have been about how hard it was. i’m sorry if anyone felt like that. dunno where i’m going with this but ig i’ll try to be more mindful of it in the future because i don’t want ppl to feel like that. mafia is supposed to be fun not a full time job

anyways

:ghosthug

[WIMbot]

I apologise to anyone who didn't enjoy the game because of anything I did. Sadly it was the tactic for me going in I'm afraid and it was definitely selfish and I won't do that again.

- Mac

[Deeze]

looking at the postcount, i'm so glad i didn't sign up for 17ers

[Deeze]

looking at the postcount, i'm so glad i didn't sign up for 17ers

-dota

[ignoramus]

Aw, we died? RIP Fishing for Fur

Well played, Town! You played a pretty solid game and while I'm kinda disappointed we couldn't scrape by for another day, I think the amount of work some of you put in was a deserved win tbh.

Someone asked about Catboomers? They pasted their discord chat into the thread, we had no choice but to kill them.

@Ampharos I don't know what your town range is, but when I was ISOing your slot, nothing you did or said looked wolfy to me. That's why when I was casing you I was like 95% using Dya's posts to shade you - I couldn't really twist any of yours to look bad

Re: activity. Yeah, waking up to between 1000-1500 new posts on the first 3 days was.... it wasn't enjoyable. It would've taken 3-4 hours of reading to catch up on all that, during which time another 500 posts would have been made, basically meaning I was always catching up and never actually playing in real time. I drowned in the last 17er I played in which ended at 95 pages, and this one ended at 168 pages, so there was always going to be a massive amount of content I couldn't comment on.

Overall, I mostly had fun, but for me the fun was heavily skewed towards wolf chat. A large portion of D1 ITG was a circle of people who knew each other talking to and about each other, and largely ignoring everyone else. I probably shouldn't complain because Blaze was in that circle and getting TRd for it at the time. This may also have been exacerbated by the fact that for a good chunk of Euro time, the activity dropped as everyone else slept. I did find it a bit annoying as a wolf, but it also makes me glad I did not rand Town because I am considerably less patient when I'm Town and probably would've spent most of the first 2 days being angry. That said, cliques are always gonna be a thing and it was good for some of our team, but me individually, I intensely dislike having to shout at people to stop ignoring me.

Overall it was a fun game that I wish I could've contributed more to, especially in terms of support John's massive effort during the busy times. However, I would only play another 17er hydra if it involved a post came. This is the second 17er hydra I've dropped completely behind and felt ineffective in, so I just don't think this size of game is for me.

Thanks for hosting, Dobby, congrats again to Town, and thanks to all my wolfbros for being an amazing team and for loads of $%#!s n giggles in wolf chat.

-El

Can't wait to play with you again!

hopefully as w/w again but beggars can't be choosers XD

It was fun and I learned a lot!
-ignoramus

[Mich-El]

So whilst we’re all in the game and I don’t get sympathy answers later

Assume I’m town for a second

What could I have done differently?

I'm... not sure

probably be more attentive during the periods that Hom was pocketing you, be more open minded when it came to the motion check on reaction, a lot less needling and bad faith arguments. Being less laser pointed and aggressively minded during the past 2-3 days. Probably opting to play more with Charizard too to get more solid ground when masoning with them.

Probably have El play slightly more too

-poof

@Empoof

For the record, I was playing as much as humanly possible for me. If you look in wolfchat you'll see that I was snowed under these past few days because my actual work that I was supposed to be doing was stacking up because I was playing this game when I was supposed to be doing my job.

If this has been a 13p game with euro-friendly deadlines I have no doubt I would've been a lot more present. But when each day racks up 3-5k posts and the SoD/EoD is 2am, it's basically never happening.

[orangeandblack5]

Yeah no El was the goat

dude basically researched my entire SoD1 wallpost, I just wrote it up

[orangeandblack5]

Yeah no El was the goat

dude basically researched my entire SoD1 wallpost, I just wrote it up

*SoD2 wallpost

[Raskolnikov]

Well played town, and thank you for hosting Dobby!

Su around.

[Dyslexicon]

Yay! Good job, town! Sorry I was not able to keep up with the game. It always felt like town had the upper hand tbh. Probably cause Hally is GOAT.

GG ^^

Thank you, Dobby!!!

[Mistyx]

i wonder if it would be possible to have only some games with a post cap. as in, maybe have that be an option to check on the scheduling form and have like one or two games for that. that would probably be the alternative to having all games with a post cap. i don’t know though, i imagine it’s already a logistical nightmare to do scheduling for this event and that would add another thing for the organizers to have to try to accommodate. but maybe it’s feasible? i really have no idea

if this is feasible i would say this is probably the best solution

[Dawoodle]

Gg. I think everyone played well this game. I enjoyed it while I was in it. (Without getting into the post count discussion too much, I was not unhappy to leave the game relatively early.)

I also want to apologize to everyone for getting modkilled, especially the wolves because it's not fair to have multiple town copy from hydra chat.

[Mich-El]

Gg. I think everyone played well this game. I enjoyed it while I was in it. (Without getting into the post count discussion too much, I was not unhappy to leave the game relatively early.)

I also want to apologize to everyone for getting modkilled, especially the wolves because it's not fair to have multiple town copy from hydra chat.

Eh, live and learn. It wasn't a malicious attempt to angleshoot, and now you know for future.

[Hally]

Yay! Good job, town! Sorry I was not able to keep up with the game. It always felt like town had the upper hand tbh. Probably cause Hally is GOAT.

GG ^^

Thank you, Dobby!!!

no u

[Haze with a Z]

Gg yall!

Sorry for messing this up for people at one point.

I prob won’t do a game like this in the future because this was a bit too overwhelming for me. Like I had to have more time on my hands than I did for champs and I had in person school for a while(hybrid coming soon) so naturally checked my phone less and my laptop.

I’d play a hydra light game sometime though or another turbo hydra.

Sorry for signing up and then failing to meet expectations.

Also sorry ara for dropping out of the other game when my partner canceled. I feel bad but I don’t want another game like this where I’ll never catch up.

[Haze with a Z]

Gg. I think everyone played well this game. I enjoyed it while I was in it. (Without getting into the post count discussion too much, I was not unhappy to leave the game relatively early.)

I also want to apologize to everyone for getting modkilled, especially the wolves because it's not fair to have multiple town copy from hydra chat.

Eh, live and learn. It wasn't a malicious attempt to angleshoot, and now you know for future.

That was me who messed up.

Dawood, it was not your fault at all. It was mine for failing to read. My logic was that it was the same account so not really like a maf chat or something like that, but thanks for making me see this rule in a new way. The wolfs might not have a similar private chat as us and therefore would be at a disadvantage with this and I didn’t think about that.

Sorry for getting modkilled. And Dawood, that was no fault of your own.

[Arapocalypse]

Congratulations town for getting the win, and well played to the mafia!!!!

Also special thanks to Value Over Replacement for subbing in/Dobby for hosting!!

Feedback on enjoyment/else of post volume is welcome, as it will be discussed extensively (read: implemented in some form) for next season!!!

Noting as well that postcaps weren't implemented last season!!

[orangeandblack5]

I must continue my crusade against post caps

[Haze with a Z]

I must continue my crusade against post caps

I have nothing against post caps most of teh time but like this was too much for me to follow. Like this felt like I was in a mash. and it wasnt a mash.

[orangeandblack5]

I must continue my crusade against post caps

I have nothing against post caps most of teh time but like this was too much for me to follow. Like this felt like I was in a mash. and it wasnt a mash.

fmpov you still did a decent job handling it

reading every post overrated

[Duffer]

@Duffer i was promised vocaroos!

but you don’t have to

@Hally https://voca.ro/1c4pcSYqzB8o

- super :P

[Hally]

@Duffer i was promised vocaroos!

but you don’t have to

@Hally https://voca.ro/1c4pcSYqzB8o

- super :P

eeeeee i love it

[staypositivefriend]

great game, everyone! i had fun speccing this whenever i got the chance, and it looks like everyone played this game really strongly

[Super]

great game, everyone! i had fun speccing this whenever i got the chance, and it looks like everyone played this game really strongly

[Duffer]

I wanna say that I had a great time playing this game, the activity level and volume was super overwhelming, I’m sure there’s like 2,000 posts I didn’t read, but I just rolled with it and had a good time. Sorry to anyone who I butted heads with :P love you all, it was a fun game to try to solve and wolf team played well! As someone with like no meta on 90% of the game I didn’t find it to play too large of an aspect and I thought it wasn’t too hard to find out footing

Cheers

-shady

[Haze with a Z]

I must continue my crusade against post caps

I have nothing against post caps most of teh time but like this was too much for me to follow. Like this felt like I was in a mash. and it wasnt a mash.

fmpov you still did a decent job handling it

reading every post overrated

The issue was I didn’t read the sod posts or check that after eod the day before so I didn’t see the mod note and then broke that rule.

And now because of that I believe that I did terribly, let everyone down(even if no one admits this), and should read every post so I dont miss stuff.

[Haze with a Z]

I must continue my crusade against post caps

I have nothing against post caps most of teh time but like this was too much for me to follow. Like this felt like I was in a mash. and it wasnt a mash.

fmpov you still did a decent job handling it

reading every post overrated

The issue was I didn’t read the sod posts or check that after eod the day before so I didn’t see the mod note and then broke that rule.

And now because of that I believe that I did terribly, let everyone down(even if no one admits this), and should read every post so I dont miss stuff.

Also that mistake made me realize I needed a break from some things which was good, but has also made me feel weird about being on MU which may be stupid but I almost feel the same way I felt when champs first ended. Like that it is other people’s thing and not mine. And that I shouldn’t be part if it. Even if I enjoy playing on here, especially with people I recognize.

Like ig that sounds weird. If I am a random person who hasn’t done something before and it looks fun by someone doing it, I might try it and think it seems cool. I would also try to do it elsewhere so I don’t intrude or go to the other person’s place. I’d give an actual example but I feel stupid about it.

[Mich-El]

Congratulations town for getting the win, and well played to the mafia!!!!

Also special thanks to Value Over Replacement for subbing in/Dobby for hosting!!

Feedback on enjoyment/else of post volume is welcome, as it will be discussed extensively (read: implemented in some form) for next season!!!

Noting as well that postcaps weren't implemented last season!!

The only other feedback I can give beyond what I already have, is that as a team we felt the D1 NK was taken out of our hands because Catboomers posted their hydra chat, and even with Dobby's mod note during EoD1 it was pretty clear that they had angleshot themselves Town. That forced us to kill them and we were then playing a game that we might otherwise not have played because there were better kill options for us as a team that night.

[orangeandblack5]

I must continue my crusade against post caps

I have nothing against post caps most of teh time but like this was too much for me to follow. Like this felt like I was in a mash. and it wasnt a mash.

fmpov you still did a decent job handling it

reading every post overrated

The issue was I didn’t read the sod posts or check that after eod the day before so I didn’t see the mod note and then broke that rule.

And now because of that I believe that I did terribly, let everyone down(even if no one admits this), and should read every post so I dont miss stuff.

Nah, that should've been a more explicit rule in the OP rather than it being assumed everyone would know

[The Weird Taste Walrus]

@Duffer
I am both bad and an $%#!.
I am just going to pretend that the two together means I am also the compound word.

[dyachei]

gg to all

glad to see we roleblocked the wolf rolecop lmao

I will say that the number of posts was way over what I've dealt with in hydra games and keeping up was a chore. i don't want my mafia games to feel like chores. So it wasn't enjoyable to me. And there were many posts that didn't really serve a real purpose. So it felt like the posts could have easily been less without impact on the game.

I think I'll be lobbying for a post cap of like 400 posts/hydra or something along those lines, personally.

[positively]

gg to all

glad to see we roleblocked the wolf rolecop lmao

I will say that the number of posts was way over what I've dealt with in hydra games and keeping up was a chore. i don't want my mafia games to feel like chores. So it wasn't enjoyable to me. And there were many posts that didn't really serve a real purpose. So it felt like the posts could have easily been less without impact on the game.

I think I'll be lobbying for a post cap of like 400 posts/hydra or something along those lines, personally.

gg dya and wp!

:ghosthug

- hally

[Raskolnikov]

gg to all

glad to see we roleblocked the wolf rolecop lmao

I will say that the number of posts was way over what I've dealt with in hydra games and keeping up was a chore. i don't want my mafia games to feel like chores. So it wasn't enjoyable to me. And there were many posts that didn't really serve a real purpose. So it felt like the posts could have easily been less without impact on the game.

I think I'll be lobbying for a post cap of like 400 posts/hydra or something along those lines, personally.

I am mostly in agreement with this. I wouldn't say it wasn't enjoyable, but this game was like twice bigger than my previous biggest game , and when you factor in the hydra concept and the fact I didn't know like 25 out of 34 people around, it was hardcore XD

Still a good learning experience, and an honor to play with so many great players (including you @TheGoldenTyranno! tu).

[orangeandblack5]

gg to all

glad to see we roleblocked the wolf rolecop lmao

I will say that the number of posts was way over what I've dealt with in hydra games and keeping up was a chore. i don't want my mafia games to feel like chores. So it wasn't enjoyable to me. And there were many posts that didn't really serve a real purpose. So it felt like the posts could have easily been less without impact on the game.

I think I'll be lobbying for a post cap of like 400 posts/hydra or something along those lines, personally.

I am mostly in agreement with this. I wouldn't say it wasn't enjoyable, but this game was like twice bigger than my previous biggest game , and when you factor in the hydra concept and the fact I didn't know like 25 out of 34 people around, it was hardcore XD

Still a good learning experience, and an honor to play with so many great players (including you @TheGoldenTyranno! tu).

Well played!

[Uhtred of Bebbanburg]

Congratulations town for getting the win, and well played to the mafia!!!!

Also special thanks to Value Over Replacement for subbing in/Dobby for hosting!!

Feedback on enjoyment/else of post volume is welcome, as it will be discussed extensively (read: implemented in some form) for next season!!!

Noting as well that postcaps weren't implemented last season!!

The only other feedback I can give beyond what I already have, is that as a team we felt the D1 NK was taken out of our hands because Catboomers posted their hydra chat, and even with Dobby's mod note during EoD1 it was pretty clear that they had angleshot themselves Town. That forced us to kill them and we were then playing a game that we might otherwise not have played because there were better kill options for us as a team that night.

who would you have killed? personally WIMBot - Char - CatBoomers had a pretty firm towncore, and when I saw him dead I wasn't confused at all. I thought WIMBot would most likely would have died on d1, but they dind't and it eventually went to the point of me tinfoiling them in dvc.

[Super]

@Duffer
I am both bad and an $%#!.
I am just going to pretend that the two together means I am also the compound word.

hahahahha i forgive you...

[Mich-El]

@Duffer
I am both bad and an $%#!.
I am just going to pretend that the two together means I am also the compound word.

Thanks for defending us, it was appreciated

Congratulations town for getting the win, and well played to the mafia!!!!

Also special thanks to Value Over Replacement for subbing in/Dobby for hosting!!

Feedback on enjoyment/else of post volume is welcome, as it will be discussed extensively (read: implemented in some form) for next season!!!

Noting as well that postcaps weren't implemented last season!!

The only other feedback I can give beyond what I already have, is that as a team we felt the D1 NK was taken out of our hands because Catboomers posted their hydra chat, and even with Dobby's mod note during EoD1 it was pretty clear that they had angleshot themselves Town. That forced us to kill them and we were then playing a game that we might otherwise not have played because there were better kill options for us as a team that night.

who would you have killed? personally WIMBot - Char - CatBoomers had a pretty firm towncore, and when I saw him dead I wasn't confused at all. I thought WIMBot would most likely would have died on d1, but they dind't and it eventually went to the point of me tinfoiling them in dvc.

Probably WIMbot