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Thread: Mafia Championship Season 8 Setup Discussion

  1. ISO #501
    GOAT Tier bearsquared's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#499)
    I know that this year's setup has already been decided, but I'm curious what you guys think about this setup idea for a future season?

    Usually the way a game of Mafia progresses is that the best Townies get killed at night and in the end the game gets decided between the low-mid Townies vs best Wolves. A good Wolf can singlehandedly win the game whilst a good Townie can't.

    For the purpose of giving everyone the best opportunity to shine, what if make the setup nightless? That way the best player can carry their team regardless of alignment.
    The main problem with nightless is that a simple act of bussing would give too much credit to a Wolf because nobody would be suspicious of them not dying (since they can't be killed).
    To resolve this problem of bussing being overpowered, we then make it so that at least 2 Wolves need to survive to win. Now everything's fair.

    One last change is needed though. Forcing the wolves to have to out-towncore the towncore isn't exactly normal (if your home community is anything like mine then "coast to victory" is a familiar wolf tactic to you). For this reason - make the wolves be Vengeful, meaning that if a wolf gets lynched then they get to pick to kill a townie of choice.

    Opinions on this idea? The main of this setup was to give everyone the best opportunity to shine for the Champs.
    Okay, let's look at this game as a 13er:

    10x VT
    3x Vengeful Mafia Goon

    Town wins when 1 or fewer Mafia are alive.
    Mafia wins at parity.

    Requiring 7 misyeets from wolves is a lot.

    Minimum length (town sweep) is 2 days, wolf sweep is 7 days, and the longest is 8 days I think. If it's a 15er variant (add 2 VT) then the max increases to 10, and wolf sweep goes to 9 days. That's just a long game for wolves with little margin for error.

    Also this gives all villagers time to shine for the most part, but a superb wolf can still get anchored by 2 partners that roll over and die because of the white flag condition. I would just remove it unless you want to have 4 wolves which might work in a 15er version of this setup.

    11x VT
    4x Vengeful Mafia Goon

    Town wins when 1 or fewer Mafia are alive.
    Mafia wins at parity.

    7 misyeets required still, and wolves can lose 2 members without white flagging. Min game length is 3 days, wolf sweep is still day 7, max length is 8 days still I think. The 15er seems a lot more playable yeah.

    In either case you're going to have a huge KP disparity between town and mafia. Setups typically have a 1:1 ratio town KP to Mafia KP, and in each variant I mention here town has at least 5 more kills than mafia. This setup just seems incredibly town-sided on paper.

    Beyond likely balance issues I don't think it'll be selected as the Champs setup because no night kill is "not normal mafia", and I'm pretty sure the games would run longer on average which is definitely not a good thing in a tournament setting. Seems like an interesting setup to try, and see if there's anything worth exploring further, but I'm definitely skeptical it being a good fit for Champs.
    Last edited by bearsquared; April 21st, 2021 at 05:10 PM.

  2. ISO #502
    GOAT Tier TripleHaven's Avatar
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    9 v 4 as a 13er seems fine to me

  3. ISO #503
    five people have died Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    I like bear's setup in Test Game #1

    I bet mafia still win most games because lolChamps and lolVig's. But it looks like a fair setup.
    (I'd personally give wolves a rolecop too but it's not a big diff either way)

  4. ISO #504
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#502)
    9 v 4 as a 13er seems fine to me
    ♦ Town requires 3 correct lynches to win; Mafia requires 5 mislynches to win.
    ♦ Games can last anywhere between 3 game days and 7.

    As a player, my only issue with it would be the possible 7 days of nightless. I would play it only with a post limit but otherwise it looks intriguing tbh.
    Last edited by mansnicks; April 22nd, 2021 at 05:18 AM.

  5. ISO #505
    GOAT Tier TripleHaven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#504)
    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#502)
    9 v 4 as a 13er seems fine to me
    ♦ Town requires 3 correct lynches to win; Mafia requires 5 mislynches to win.
    ♦ Games can last anywhere between 3 game days and 7.

    As a player, my only issue with it would be the possible 7 days of nightless. I would play it only with a post limit but otherwise it looks intriguing tbh.
    Personally i would still have a night phase but with no factional, so it's just a time where people can take a break from the game.

    i might put this setup up to review and put up signups soon as there's nothing scheduled for 5/3 rn

  6. ISO #506
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#505)
    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#504)
    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#502)
    9 v 4 as a 13er seems fine to me
    ♦ Town requires 3 correct lynches to win; Mafia requires 5 mislynches to win.
    ♦ Games can last anywhere between 3 game days and 7.

    As a player, my only issue with it would be the possible 7 days of nightless. I would play it only with a post limit but otherwise it looks intriguing tbh.
    Personally i would still have a night phase but with no factional, so it's just a time where people can take a break from the game.

    i might put this setup up to review and put up signups soon as there's nothing scheduled for 5/3 rn
    That's a good idea imho, the "break phase". I wonder how much it impacts the game in who's favor? Scum can make plans whilst town can analyze - which is better?

  7. ISO #507
    Wants It More Rokon's Avatar
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    I've played in a mechanically nightless game that had these break phases and I do like the idea
    admittedly some stuff came up and I had to sub out early so my experience was limited but
    Last edited by Rokon; April 24th, 2021 at 01:35 AM. Reason: clarification

  8. ISO #508
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#505)
    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#504)
    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#502)
    9 v 4 as a 13er seems fine to me
    ♦ Town requires 3 correct lynches to win; Mafia requires 5 mislynches to win.
    ♦ Games can last anywhere between 3 game days and 7.

    As a player, my only issue with it would be the possible 7 days of nightless. I would play it only with a post limit but otherwise it looks intriguing tbh.
    Personally i would still have a night phase but with no factional, so it's just a time where people can take a break from the game.

    i might put this setup up to review and put up signups soon as there's nothing scheduled for 5/3 rn
    @TripleHaven
    Rename the Vengeful Mafia to Vengeful Spirit and call the setup Ghostbusters.

  9. ISO #509
    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Having a night phase in champs, whether or not actions are done in it, is essentially a requirement; people threadsit a ton as is already!!!!

    Length of games is also a consideration, don't necessarily want a game to last 1-2 months!! Essentially, you'd want more kp in order to shorten it... which is a bit counterintuitive to the suggestion of removing kp!!!

    Also, most variants out there have at least some variant of mafia kp for them, which is probably more of a change to the game itself than anything else suggested!!

  10. ISO #510
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#509)
    Having a night phase in champs, whether or not actions are done in it, is essentially a requirement; people threadsit a ton as is already!!!!

    Length of games is also a consideration, don't necessarily want a game to last 1-2 months!! Essentially, you'd want more kp in order to shorten it... which is a bit counterintuitive to the suggestion of removing kp!!!

    Also, most variants out there have at least some variant of mafia kp for them, which is probably more of a change to the game itself than anything else suggested!!
    7 game days of nightless would be unhealthy to say the least, that's true.

    Length of game, assuming this setup would be NOT nightless, would be identical to this seasons setup - max game day count is 7 in both.
    This automatically makes it not necessary to have more kp for the purpose of reducing game length.

    I agree having less kp than normal is slightly unusual. However, the mafia still have 2 kills at their disposal - which I think makes it's not too too far from ordinary.

  11. ISO #511
    GOAT Tier bearsquared's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#510)
    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#509)
    Having a night phase in champs, whether or not actions are done in it, is essentially a requirement; people threadsit a ton as is already!!!!

    Length of games is also a consideration, don't necessarily want a game to last 1-2 months!! Essentially, you'd want more kp in order to shorten it... which is a bit counterintuitive to the suggestion of removing kp!!!

    Also, most variants out there have at least some variant of mafia kp for them, which is probably more of a change to the game itself than anything else suggested!!
    7 game days of nightless would be unhealthy to say the least, that's true.

    Length of game, assuming this setup would be NOT nightless, would be identical to this seasons setup - max game day count is 7 in both.
    This automatically makes it not necessary to have more kp for the purpose of reducing game length.

    I agree having less kp than normal is slightly unusual. However, the mafia still have 2 kills at their disposal - which I think makes it's not too too far from ordinary.
    I realized I didn't end up mentioning it, but while the nightless setup has a similar maximum length as Gold Rush, but it's also going to last a lot longer on average. Wolves can win in MYLO on day 4 I think in Gold Rush, but the fastest the wolves win in the nightless game is day 7 I think. My guess is the nightless setup would last between a day and 2 phases longer on average. That's a guess, but I think there's good reason to think it lasts longer on average.

  12. ISO #512
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#511)
    but the fastest the wolves win in the nightless game is day 7 I think.
    Day 5 ftr. Day 6 if 1 wolf lynched / Day 7 if 2 wolves lynched.

    Gold rush, if the Vigi doesn't shoot, it's also Day 5. Day 4 if Vigi kills a Townie.

  13. ISO #513
    if you've ever played in games where the nk is blocked, you realize that night phases aren't just about having the break from the game, something happening overnight is pretty important to keep it from becoming samey

  14. ISO #514
    Low Hanging Fruit UnDeFeatedKing's Avatar
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    mafia season 9:everyone gets quirks/post restrictions

  15. ISO #515
    Soul Reader Necrominus's Avatar
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    No night phases? Eh... it's Mafia World Champs not Bastard Game World Champs

  16. ISO #516
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrominus (#515)
    No night phases? Eh... it's Mafia World Champs not Bastard Game World Champs
    That's not what bastard means in Mafia, ftr.

  17. ISO #517
    Soul Reader Necrominus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#516)
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrominus (#515)
    No night phases? Eh... it's Mafia World Champs not Bastard Game World Champs
    That's not what bastard means in Mafia, ftr.
    No night phases would be pretty bastard to me tbh

  18. ISO #518
    Soul Reader Master Radishes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#516)
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrominus (#515)
    No night phases? Eh... it's Mafia World Champs not Bastard Game World Champs
    That's not what bastard means in Mafia, ftr.
    'Bastard' means different things to different people.

  19. ISO #519
    GOAT Tier Psycho666Soldier's Avatar
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    Confirming the fates have been spoken and I will be the backup for Rajah

  20. ISO #520
    alien shapeshifter Hally's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho666Soldier (#519)
    Confirming the fates have been spoken and I will be the backup for Rajah
    wrong thread

  21. ISO #521
    Wants It More c4e5g3d5's Avatar
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    I think abovementioned could be a great way to discredit Psycho.

  22. ISO #522
    GOAT Tier Psycho666Soldier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#520)
    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho666Soldier (#519)
    Confirming the fates have been spoken and I will be the backup for Rajah
    wrong thread
    $%#!in hell

  23. ISO #523
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c4e5g3d5 (#521)
    I think abovementioned could be a great way to discredit Psycho.
    This isn't the wolf chat you're searching for.
    ##Vote c4e5g3d5

  24. ISO #524
    Low Hanging Fruit LordQuas's Avatar Game Manager
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    i think we should bring back mad 15

  25. ISO #525
    Low Hanging Fruit LordQuas's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#38)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#35)
    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#31)
    I find the idea of 12v3 with PRs questionable in balance, because 12v3 is Mountainous, and in Mountainous - Town is compensated for having no PRs with numbers.

    At the very least 12v3 with PRs, like JOAT^2, is non-standard.
    the idea with having 12 v 3 last season with 2 pr’s was to make the setup somewhat town-sided to counteract the inherent scum-sidedness of champs that comes with having many different players with no meta on each other playing together. last season the JOAT^2 setup was intentionally town-sided and yet scum won all but two qualifiers out of eleven iirc (though town did better in semis and the finale). the rationale behind making the setup town-sided is to try balance the winrate more
    i think there should be a town-sided setup in qualifiers, and a "normal" setup in semis/finale

    i'm not sure why this hasn't been done yet tbh

    wolfing in a semifinal or finale in joat^2 or something similarly town-sided seems like it would suck eggs
    actually this though

  26. ISO #526
    Wants It More c4e5g3d5's Avatar
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    The argument's usually that balance doesn't matter because it's about showing skill, not winning. Problem with that is that an unbalanced setup can crush your WIM and make you show less skill.

  27. ISO #527
    Soul Reader ejjinami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas (#525)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack (#38)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#35)
    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#31)
    I find the idea of 12v3 with PRs questionable in balance, because 12v3 is Mountainous, and in Mountainous - Town is compensated for having no PRs with numbers.

    At the very least 12v3 with PRs, like JOAT^2, is non-standard.
    the idea with having 12 v 3 last season with 2 pr’s was to make the setup somewhat town-sided to counteract the inherent scum-sidedness of champs that comes with having many different players with no meta on each other playing together. last season the JOAT^2 setup was intentionally town-sided and yet scum won all but two qualifiers out of eleven iirc (though town did better in semis and the finale). the rationale behind making the setup town-sided is to try balance the winrate more
    i think there should be a town-sided setup in qualifiers, and a "normal" setup in semis/finale

    i'm not sure why this hasn't been done yet tbh

    wolfing in a semifinal or finale in joat^2 or something similarly town-sided seems like it would suck eggs
    actually this though
    100% support this
    It could add some novelty to the last game as well

  28. ISO #528
    Wants It More c4e5g3d5's Avatar
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    I guess this is technically a fitting-ish place to put this.

    EVERYONE LISTEN CLOSELY. YOU IN PARTICULAR, MOTION DETECTOR.

    The motion detector will play a crucial role in the days to come. In test and practice games alike, we've regularly been faced with one simple question: can the motion detector tell the difference between no motion and being blocked?

    Obviously, the difference could have massive implications, so we need to clear this up as soon and explicitly as possible. That means right now in all caps boldface. Maybe a fancy font too.

    Q: CAN THE MD TELL THE DIFFERENCE?
    A: DEFINITELY, YES

    Q: HOW DOES THE MD TELL THE DIFFERENCE?
    A: $%#! IF I KNOW

    Q: WHO DO I ASK TO FIND OUT?
    A: $%#! IF I KNOW


    With that cleared up, the MD should have no excuse making any mistakes around this issue.

  29. ISO #529
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Investigative roles get "No Result" feedback when roleblocked.
    Motion Detector is such role.

  30. ISO #530
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#529)
    Investigative roles get "No Result" feedback when roleblocked.
    Motion Detector is such role.
    Tbh, the setup being centered around the possibility of CC'ing makes it worth while to add a "possible feedbacks" list. Arguably more important than the OoO list.

  31. ISO #531
    GOAT Tier Psycho666Soldier's Avatar
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    Isn't there normally a list of feedbacks?

  32. ISO #532
    Galaxy Brain Jaleb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho666Soldier (#531)
    Isn't there normally a list of feedbacks?
    Any role that investigates will get feedback (either result of no result).

    Gunsmiths/blacksmiths sorta give feedback in that their target will learn they were given an item

    Rest of the roles will receive 0 feedback other than action was processed.

  33. ISO #533
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaleb (#532)
    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho666Soldier (#531)
    Isn't there normally a list of feedbacks?
    Any role that investigates will get feedback (either result of no result).

    Gunsmiths/blacksmiths sorta give feedback in that their target will learn they were given an item

    Rest of the roles will receive 0 feedback other than action was processed.
    I think there are some communities that sometimes have doctor's have feedback and roleblocker's target have feedback.
    Though it's rare for a good reason - confirming roles would be a big balance issue.

    And this "No Result" is def nothing common across the non-mafia communities.

    I just think it's irresponsible by the hosts, when hosting games for foreign communities, to not have a "Possible Feedbacks" list, just like the "Order of Operations". Especially in a setup like this - that's focused on the Mafia's ability to CC.

  34. ISO #534
    Thread Analyst Chiken's Avatar
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    I for one agree that MD should receive "No Motion" for no motion and "Ability Failed" for roleblock. In larger setups, there could be other reasons for the ability to fail (setups with loads of variables, which is kinda what I've been raised on).

    Also, is Order of Operation the same as Role Priorities? In that it's a list of what roles have priority over others (for instance, a block has priority over a kill, so if kill is blocked but killer targets blocker, kill fails)? Because that would be nice, even if this setup seems basic, other communities may have different priorities.

  35. ISO #535
    Galaxy Brain Jaleb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiken (#534)
    I for one agree that MD should receive "No Motion" for no motion and "Ability Failed" for roleblock. In larger setups, there could be other reasons for the ability to fail (setups with loads of variables, which is kinda what I've been raised on).

    Also, is Order of Operation the same as Role Priorities? In that it's a list of what roles have priority over others (for instance, a block has priority over a kill, so if kill is blocked but killer targets blocker, kill fails)? Because that would be nice, even if this setup seems basic, other communities may have different priorities.
    Roleblocker goes first
    Then, doctor if roleblocker doesn't block them
    Vigilante/Mafia's team kp (which is assigned) assuming roleblocker/doctor doesn't prevent the deaths happening
    Motion detector being alerted if there were night actions given no role blocks happened.

    Roleblocker A targets Vigi B, B's action will fail
    Roleblocker C targets Doctor D, while Mafia E targets player F and Doctor D also targets player F, then doctor D's action will fail, and Mafia E's kill will succeed on F
    Roleblocker G targets Motion Detector H, then Roleblocker G will recieve processed, while Motion Detector H will recieve no result.
    Motion Detector J targets K who visits L, J will receive there was motion
    Motion Detector M targets N who was visited by O, M will receive there was motion
    Motion Detector P targets Q with no actions performed by/on, P will receive there was no motion.

  36. ISO #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Chiken (#534)
    I for one agree that MD should receive "No Motion" for no motion and "Ability Failed" for roleblock. In larger setups, there could be other reasons for the ability to fail (setups with loads of variables, which is kinda what I've been raised on).

    Also, is Order of Operation the same as Role Priorities? In that it's a list of what roles have priority over others (for instance, a block has priority over a kill, so if kill is blocked but killer targets blocker, kill fails)? Because that would be nice, even if this setup seems basic, other communities may have different priorities.
    Yeah and Order of Operations: a) always the same for automated games at ly; b) always displayed in the FAQ at the start of the game.

    It's:
    Strongman kills
    Roleblocks
    Jails
    Doctors
    Bodyguards
    Kills
    Investigations
    Backups


    Also I must apologize for my comments earlier, it seems they do have "ACTION FEEDBACK" under FAQ, I just never noticed it.

  37. ISO #537

  38. ISO #538

  39. ISO #539
    Low Hanging Fruit O5-1's Avatar
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    pog setup ngl

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    Low Hanging Fruit O5-1's Avatar
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