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Thread: Conclusion of Sit-And-Go Test

  1. ISO #51
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#50)
    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#46)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawoodle (#45)
    As for entering the queue without review, yes. Any open setup game does not require review.
    Is it possible that you misspoke?
    Because, for example, an open setup with 10 vigilantes probably wouldn't be fine.
    Yes, you are allowed to reserve a spot on the schedule for that and put up a signup thread.

    The logic here is that it's perfectly fine to just throw up any stupid signup thread whatsoever because people will see that it's stupid and the game won't fill, which is a totally great outcome. But you're not allowed to put up a signup thread for a 25 player game because there's a chance a game of that size won't fill, and games not filling is a terrible outcome that must be avoided at all costs. And you won't be able to run this game as a closed setup because it would be unbalanced and the mods would tell you you're not allowed to do it, but if it's an open setup then it's fine because nobody should ever be allowed to tell hosts what they're allowed to do.

    edit: I'm assuming that "an open setup with 10 vigilantes" was intended as a generic example of a ridiculous and unbalanced setup, and I'm responding in that context.
    I'm sorry for derailing this thread and for asking what I assume could be stupid questions, but this is the last time itt I swear:

    1) What about semi-open setups?
    2) Where do people normally learn about it?

  2. ISO #52
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    A semi-open setup is one where you have a set of parameters but not necessarily the exact combination of roles. For example D6 and 2x4 are semi-open setups.

    For the sake of this conversation they're more in line with Open setups than otherwise.

  3. ISO #53
    Wants It More TripleHaven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#5)
    2) Hosts should be encouraged to have setups that have some flexibility in the number of players who can sign up, and this should be clearly communicated in the OP. For example: "If we have 13 players we'll use Setup X, if we have 17 players we'll use Setup Y, if we have 26 players we'll run two games of Setup X, etc." This will help to better match supply with demand.
    @soah (and anyone else interested)
    this is whats being done to deck mafia #1 now, as the amount of players we get in the game doesn't really matter or effect the first game at all (its complete mountainous); we can kinda gauge if the idea works well there.
    Last edited by TripleHaven; April 13th, 2021 at 03:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#284)
    HEY $%#!S
    Since some people obviously don't know this, even though it should be BASIC COMMON SENSE, I guess i have to point it out. if you are PR, and are about to be misyeeted, YOU NEED TO CLAIM. You need to claim with at least 45 seconds, preferably 1 minute left so that people have time to refresh and unvote you. If you claim at 30 seconds, if you claim at 15 seconds, if you don't claim at all, YOU WILL BE MISYEETED. PR staying alive is extremely important for town. There was a post on the general mafia forum about win rates when PR is yeeted D1 in turbos and its 1/14 or some $%#!.

    I'm not going to call this gamethrowing, because some new players might not understand how important PR is to a setup, and others come from sites where you can't claim as PR. But please, for the love of god, claim if you're being killed. Thank you.

    Copypasta over.

  4. ISO #54
    GOAT Tier Esooa's Avatar
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    I think the sit and go signups had players who were new/off site more often because that's a style (specifically mafiascum) other sites use in signups
    DkKoba: you're maybe not so much ego, but like, if an ego player had bottom energy lol?

  5. ISO #55
    Billy GOAT Gruff billymills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantichora (#48)
    Quote Originally Posted by billymills (#39)
    You could have a discord system that allows people to discuss sign ups and game setup ahead of time.

    I'd imagine moving signup notifications into its own category, and adding a signup role for each (active) sign up thread. Reacting with the appropriate signup would give you access to a separate channel to discussing the game.

    Pros:
    doesn't clutter MU discord because you only see signups you're following unless you're a mod but who cares about them
    Can discuss game set up in real time (relevant if people have clashing requests)
    Organize recruitment via discord easier
    Completely optional use (don't have to deal with discord if you don't want to)

    Cons:
    Takes effort
    categories
    Unless this process can be more or less automated, it seems like too much work compared to having people use either Signups or the Lounge.

    Do you have any specific bot in mind?
    I think it's RoleBot
    https://duwtgb.gitbook.io/rolebot/

    Seems fairly simple.

    I figure you could set a reaction for each new signup post in sign-up-notifications, watch the sign-up-notification message, and just cycle the channels and reactions when stuff fills. I don't know much about discord bots, but I've seen it be effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranmilia
    Unfortunately I am compelled to say that billymills is 100% correct.

  6. ISO #56
    I think maybe a problem was visibility?

    maybe something similar to ToS forums could work better in that sense:

    - anyone can put signups up with the tag or w/e "Starts when filled"

    - max 1 sign up at a time

    -new sign up can only go up when old game is done (not sure if MU has the playerbase for more than 1 at a time + regular games)

    caveat: I havent read most of this thread

  7. ISO #57
    Wants It More TripleHaven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladd (#56)
    I think maybe a problem was visibility?

    maybe something similar to ToS forums could work better in that sense:

    - anyone can put signups up with the tag or w/e "Starts when filled"

    - max 1 sign up at a time

    -new sign up can only go up when old game is done (not sure if MU has the playerbase for more than 1 at a time + regular games)

    caveat: I havent read most of this thread
    ^
    |
    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#284)
    HEY $%#!S
    Since some people obviously don't know this, even though it should be BASIC COMMON SENSE, I guess i have to point it out. if you are PR, and are about to be misyeeted, YOU NEED TO CLAIM. You need to claim with at least 45 seconds, preferably 1 minute left so that people have time to refresh and unvote you. If you claim at 30 seconds, if you claim at 15 seconds, if you don't claim at all, YOU WILL BE MISYEETED. PR staying alive is extremely important for town. There was a post on the general mafia forum about win rates when PR is yeeted D1 in turbos and its 1/14 or some $%#!.

    I'm not going to call this gamethrowing, because some new players might not understand how important PR is to a setup, and others come from sites where you can't claim as PR. But please, for the love of god, claim if you're being killed. Thank you.

    Copypasta over.

  8. ISO #58
    Mantichora's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladd (#56)
    I think maybe a problem was visibility?

    maybe something similar to ToS forums could work better in that sense:

    - anyone can put signups up with the tag or w/e "Starts when filled"

    - max 1 sign up at a time

    -new sign up can only go up when old game is done (not sure if MU has the playerbase for more than 1 at a time + regular games)

    caveat: I havent read most of this thread
    With the sit and go queue closing this is more or less what we're back to.

    Which reminds me that I need to edit the op of the queue thread to reflect recent developments.

  9. ISO #59
    Wants It More Sett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#40)
    Quote Originally Posted by billymills (#39)
    You could have a discord system that allows people to discuss sign ups and game setup ahead of time.

    I'd imagine moving signup notifications into its own category, and adding a signup role for each (active) sign up thread. Reacting with the appropriate signup would give you access to a separate channel to discussing the game.

    Pros:
    doesn't clutter MU discord because you only see signups you're following unless you're a mod but who cares about them
    Can discuss game set up in real time (relevant if people have clashing requests)
    Organize recruitment via discord easier
    Completely optional use (don't have to deal with discord if you don't want to)

    Cons:
    Takes effort
    categories


    im not gonna lie, id love yo host games, but im also like. not good at setup and wish i could talk to people in realtime to work out how to make a good one, aha
    This.

    I also support the creation of a setup feedback/suggestion/request thread where people can give feedback on previously played set ups as well as suggest/request setups they would like to see hosted. Also, encouraging players to give feedback could be as easy as giving an award for being insightful/helpful in the thread during that year. Mind you that it wouldn't mean much, but it's a nice way of saying thanks.

  10. ISO #60
    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sett (#59)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#40)
    Quote Originally Posted by billymills (#39)
    You could have a discord system that allows people to discuss sign ups and game setup ahead of time.

    I'd imagine moving signup notifications into its own category, and adding a signup role for each (active) sign up thread. Reacting with the appropriate signup would give you access to a separate channel to discussing the game.

    Pros:
    doesn't clutter MU discord because you only see signups you're following unless you're a mod but who cares about them
    Can discuss game set up in real time (relevant if people have clashing requests)
    Organize recruitment via discord easier
    Completely optional use (don't have to deal with discord if you don't want to)

    Cons:
    Takes effort
    categories


    im not gonna lie, id love yo host games, but im also like. not good at setup and wish i could talk to people in realtime to work out how to make a good one, aha
    This.

    I also support the creation of a setup feedback/suggestion/request thread where people can give feedback on previously played set ups as well as suggest/request setups they would like to see hosted. Also, encouraging players to give feedback could be as easy as giving an award for being insightful/helpful in the thread during that year. Mind you that it wouldn't mean much, but it's a nice way of saying thanks.
    Wrt this, is it better to have a staff thread tho or just encourage people to post their own ones in the mafia lounge and maybe a discord channel dedicated to that talk
    Come wayward souls,
    Who wander through the darkness,
    There is a light for the lost and the meek.

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    You don't have to do anything except die
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash
    Look upon my works ye low hanging fruit and despair!
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash
    I'm not accusing you of meta

    I'm accusing you of a wolfiest

    The most heinous of crimes

  11. ISO #61
    Wants It More Sett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#60)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sett (#59)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#40)
    Quote Originally Posted by billymills (#39)
    You could have a discord system that allows people to discuss sign ups and game setup ahead of time.

    I'd imagine moving signup notifications into its own category, and adding a signup role for each (active) sign up thread. Reacting with the appropriate signup would give you access to a separate channel to discussing the game.

    Pros:
    doesn't clutter MU discord because you only see signups you're following unless you're a mod but who cares about them
    Can discuss game set up in real time (relevant if people have clashing requests)
    Organize recruitment via discord easier
    Completely optional use (don't have to deal with discord if you don't want to)

    Cons:
    Takes effort
    categories


    im not gonna lie, id love yo host games, but im also like. not good at setup and wish i could talk to people in realtime to work out how to make a good one, aha
    This.

    I also support the creation of a setup feedback/suggestion/request thread where people can give feedback on previously played set ups as well as suggest/request setups they would like to see hosted. Also, encouraging players to give feedback could be as easy as giving an award for being insightful/helpful in the thread during that year. Mind you that it wouldn't mean much, but it's a nice way of saying thanks.
    Wrt this, is it better to have a staff thread tho or just encourage people to post their own ones in the mafia lounge and maybe a discord channel dedicated to that talk
    Idk.

    A staff thread would be good, as having people post a thread every time a game ends would just clutter the sub-forum unnecessarily IMO.

    However, the problem of unifying threads together instead of having separate threads is the overlap between discussing/suggesting/requesting set ups on top of the feedback, which could make the thread chaotic to navigate.

    It's really just a matter of weighing practicality with functionality and finding a balance/consensus.

  12. ISO #62
    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sett (#61)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#60)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sett (#59)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#40)


    im not gonna lie, id love yo host games, but im also like. not good at setup and wish i could talk to people in realtime to work out how to make a good one, aha
    This.

    I also support the creation of a setup feedback/suggestion/request thread where people can give feedback on previously played set ups as well as suggest/request setups they would like to see hosted. Also, encouraging players to give feedback could be as easy as giving an award for being insightful/helpful in the thread during that year. Mind you that it wouldn't mean much, but it's a nice way of saying thanks.
    Wrt this, is it better to have a staff thread tho or just encourage people to post their own ones in the mafia lounge and maybe a discord channel dedicated to that talk
    Idk.

    A staff thread would be good, as having people post a thread every time a game ends would just clutter the sub-forum unnecessarily IMO.

    However, the problem of unifying threads together instead of having separate threads is the overlap between discussing/suggesting/requesting set ups on top of the feedback, which could make the thread chaotic to navigate.

    It's really just a matter of weighing practicality with functionality and finding a balance/consensus.
    Oh yeah, I was focused more on the suggestion/request sort of aspect, not the feedback for every game. Don't really see why that wouldn't just go more in the game thread post-game?

    Though if it's sufficient volume maybe just its own subforum, because yeah I was a bit worried about overlap of discussion etc if people wanna talk about different setups etc

    And really think discord channel would be good to add, easy place to share links to threads and such. And some people will work better with real time discussion
    Come wayward souls,
    Who wander through the darkness,
    There is a light for the lost and the meek.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas
    You don't have to do anything except die
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash
    Look upon my works ye low hanging fruit and despair!
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash
    I'm not accusing you of meta

    I'm accusing you of a wolfiest

    The most heinous of crimes

  13. ISO #63
    Soul Reader Guillotina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#5)
    I feel like there should be ways to improve the current signup system, but I don't really have a complete proposal for anything. I'm just going to throw out a variety of thoughts:

    1) Signup period should be reduced from 2 weeks to 1 week for games with less than 20 players (arguably for all games). The extra time isn't necessary for filling games and it's just worse in every way for the players.

    2) Hosts should be encouraged to have setups that have some flexibility in the number of players who can sign up, and this should be clearly communicated in the OP. For example: "If we have 13 players we'll use Setup X, if we have 17 players we'll use Setup Y, if we have 26 players we'll run two games of Setup X, etc." This will help to better match supply with demand.

    3) Players should have more direct input in what setups are run. This is the controversial thing where I don't know exactly what would work best. But it seems like a mistake to me to allow hosts to reserve an exclusive slot on the schedule for any open setup that they create with no need to seek any feedback from anyone whatsoever. It's a system that's kinda halfway regulated and halfway unregulated in an awkward way. This also applies to phase lengths/post caps. When I hosted games I usually just copied those details from other games because I had no better data on what players actually wanted. A formal system for getting feedback from players would actually empower hosts more than limit them because they'd be able to more confidently propose setups outside of the norm.

    4) The nature of the hosting queue discourages medium-sized games (22-30 players) because they have to be slotted into spots which are intended for massive games (50+ players). The site is large enough to support those games on a weekly basis, but the rules prevent it from happening hardly ever. This contributes to a lack of diversity of game types. Small games are fine for what they are, but games with ~25 players can have much more creative setups without the need for mass carnage and chaos, and the site would be better off if those games could happen more regularly.
    Disagree with point 1. Try to fill a 21 player closed bastard game when there are two mashes scheduled the week before and the week after by Legacy status hosts. Try to get players sign up to play your game when you are a newbie host. If we do it your way, games would have to be run by the same hosts over and over, killing new hosting minds with ahead of the curve ideas.

    I don't agree or disagree with point 2, ultimately it is up to the host and the time they have available to run a game.

    Disagree with 3. As a player, it excites me to find out what set up was run after game, if i have to tell the host what game to run so i could play it, where is the fun in that? I'll never tell a host what set up to run, that implies work and i just wanna play, that also implies less fun for the hosts as their fun is in the design of their games and how the end up playing out.
    This point limits hosting more than empowering them.

    Agree with point 4. The way queue is set up, it allows for only small games or mashes. I got game designs for a 25-35 playerlist that dont qualify for small games queue or mash queue.
    Last edited by Guillotina; April 15th, 2021 at 11:59 AM.
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  14. ISO #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#63)
    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#5)
    I feel like there should be ways to improve the current signup system, but I don't really have a complete proposal for anything. I'm just going to throw out a variety of thoughts:

    1) Signup period should be reduced from 2 weeks to 1 week for games with less than 20 players (arguably for all games). The extra time isn't necessary for filling games and it's just worse in every way for the players.

    2) Hosts should be encouraged to have setups that have some flexibility in the number of players who can sign up, and this should be clearly communicated in the OP. For example: "If we have 13 players we'll use Setup X, if we have 17 players we'll use Setup Y, if we have 26 players we'll run two games of Setup X, etc." This will help to better match supply with demand.

    3) Players should have more direct input in what setups are run. This is the controversial thing where I don't know exactly what would work best. But it seems like a mistake to me to allow hosts to reserve an exclusive slot on the schedule for any open setup that they create with no need to seek any feedback from anyone whatsoever. It's a system that's kinda halfway regulated and halfway unregulated in an awkward way. This also applies to phase lengths/post caps. When I hosted games I usually just copied those details from other games because I had no better data on what players actually wanted. A formal system for getting feedback from players would actually empower hosts more than limit them because they'd be able to more confidently propose setups outside of the norm.

    4) The nature of the hosting queue discourages medium-sized games (22-30 players) because they have to be slotted into spots which are intended for massive games (50+ players). The site is large enough to support those games on a weekly basis, but the rules prevent it from happening hardly ever. This contributes to a lack of diversity of game types. Small games are fine for what they are, but games with ~25 players can have much more creative setups without the need for mass carnage and chaos, and the site would be better off if those games could happen more regularly.
    Disagree with point 1. Try to fill a 21 player closed bastard game when there are two mashes scheduled the week before and the week after by Legacy status hosts. Try to get players sign up to play your game when you are a newbie host. If we do it your way, games would have to be run by the same hosts over and over, killing new hosting minds with ahead of the curve ideas.
    What sort of players will sign up for a game more than a week in advance but wouldn't sign up less than a week in advance, and how many of them are there here? Conversely, how many players are there who would like to play a game quickly but don't sign up for anything because the games they're interested in are already full more than a week in advance? I have a hard time believing that there are more of the former than the latter -- and among the former I expect you'll have a disproportionate number of players who end up subbing out.

    Disagree with 3. As a player, it excites me to find out what set up was run after game, if i have to tell the host what game to run so i could play it, where is the fun in that? I'll never tell a host what set up to run, that implies work and i just wanna play, that also implies less fun for the hosts as their fun is in the design of their games and how the end up playing out.
    This point limits hosting more than empowering them.
    I think you've completely misunderstood this point. Obviously players can't dictate the setup of a game that has a closed setup. But players should at least have input in whether to play a closed setup at all, to name one example.

  15. ISO #65
    Soul Reader Guillotina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#64)
    What sort of players will sign up for a game more than a week in advance but wouldn't sign up less than a week in advance, and how many of them are there here? Conversely, how many players are there who would like to play a game quickly but don't sign up for anything because the games they're interested in are already full more than a week in advance? I have a hard time believing that there are more of the former than the latter -- and among the former I expect you'll have a disproportionate number of players who end up subbing out.
    First bold. People like me with a tight work or student schedule, I have to plan ahead to play or host games, way ahead and I've come across people asking me to give them a heads up about my games weeks in advance for the same reason, i don't know how many in real numbers are people like us out there.

    Second bold. Well I mean, I don't have the numbers of those people but they can subscribe to get pinged to the sign up threads if they don't wanna miss a game, I also let players to signup for auto-in, meaning they are up to play any game I run, I had a few like that for a while.

    Bottom line I rather have two weeks to fill up the game even though I fill up in less than that time, than attempting to fill a game in a week and failing to do so.
    Last edited by Guillotina; April 15th, 2021 at 01:55 PM.
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  16. ISO #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#65)
    First bold. People like me with a tight work or student schedule, I have to plan ahead to play or host games, way ahead and I've come across people asking me to give them a heads up about my games weeks in advance for the same reason, i don't know how many in real numbers are people like us out there.
    You addressed half of my statement -- why you would sign up for games well in advance -- but not the other half of my statement -- that you would not sign up for those same games less in advance. I find it very hard to believe that if you wanted to play a game on a certain date you would not simply check for a signup thread at the time that you expect it to be posted, regardless of when that may be.

    But of course, this is getting away from the root problem, which is that there's a relatively rigid number of player slots available in (small) games each week, and that number of slots is deliberately set at a level which will allow the games to fill, and by extension this means that some people who want to play won't get a spot. And as long as this is the case, it will cause players to sign up quickly for games they are interested in if it looks like they will fill soon. Shortening the signup period will at least make the process a bit more fair, but it doesn't solve the problem of players not getting to play when they want to. I don't particularly care too much about how that problem is solved, but it would be nice to be able to get into a game when I'm in the mood to play, and often that does not happen for me.

    Second bold. Well I mean, I don't have the numbers of those people but they can subscribe to get pinged to the sign up threads if they don't wanna miss a game, I also let players to signup for auto-in, meaning they are up to play any game I run, I had a few like that for a while.
    The current system is functional for people who play on MU regularly, because they're around a lot and can set up a pipeline of future games to play. But it's quite discouraging to get an itch to play after being away for months and then I check the site and see that every game scheduled in the next 10 days is full and has a waiting list. I put up with this because I don't want to join other sites, but if the SNG experiment showed us anything it's that there are players out there who will sign up for a game if they think it will run immediately but they don't sign up for the games scheduled to run at a much later date.

  17. ISO #67
    Soul Reader lendunistus's Avatar
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    I think the queue had potential, but a couple of factors made its demise almost inevitable. the champs test games are a perfact indication that the idea is great. however, the execution with the SNG queue was extremely poor.

    1. Lack of Advertisement

    the queue was barely even advertised. aside from an announcement, the queue being pinned in the signups forum and an open signups link, no effort was made to get people to try out the new queue. I want you to imagine yourself as either a new or a returning player who missed the announcement and wants to play a game on the site. which game would you rather play? "March Long Phase Ultra-Low Volume Game" or the mangled soup pot of a title that is "S2: D6 13er"? (i am aware that the first title isn't exactly a perfect example, but at least it's in english for god's sake)

    there needed to be a good indication of what the queue is right from the get go. if I have to click on a link just to even see what the hell the start date is, I probably won't click it. a separate sub-forum in the mafia games section dedicated entirely to sit and go games would have been miles better but here, the queue was just awkwardly shoved in the sign-ups forum. if you're gonna have two different types of sign-ups, don't shove the second type in a section dominated entirely by the first type. I know I sound like a hypocrite when the champs test games were also shoved into the sign-ups forum, but they actually had COHERENT TITLES THAT PEOPLE WOULD CLICK ON.

    2. Lack of Variety

    I don't think i'm making a controversial statement when I say that D6 can be quite unbalanced sometimes. it definitely has some flaws, but i'm not here to gush about a setup. the point is that if I don't want to sign up for a D6 game, I probably won't want to sign up for one 2 MONTHS LATER. there was clearly a lack of interest for D6, yet it was still kept as the setup for months straight. it's like keeping a normal game in signups for 2 months even when it's almost certain that it won't fill. the "a game can only be in signups for 2 weeks" rule was made to prevent zombie games where nobody signs up for them and they just stay in signup limbo, yet this is exactly what happened here. the setup shpuld have been changed when it was already clear that there wasn't interest for it.

    3. A General Lack of Care/Updates

    at its worst, the OP was edited once a month. that is abysmal. and the open signups tab was even worse with it not being updated ONCE after the second SNG game started taking signups (at least from what I can remember). the queue basically wasn't being monitored or acknowledged by any staff members from february to mid-march. coupled with the lack of promotion and setup variety, it gave off a general feeling of "we don't care". the queue just looked like something staff put up and then stopped caring or acknowledging a month afterwards, which probably contributed to the massive lack of players.

    i could keep gushing on about a potential replacement for the queue or talking more about how it was executed poorly but i'm too tired so meh

    TL;DR: great idea, but lack of setup variety, promotion or general care led to a very poor execution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrypotato (#747)
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrypotato (#408)
    Quote Originally Posted by Everyone
    ##Vote lendunistus
    Going to bed soon , but this is a very $%#!ty vote

  18. ISO #68
    Soul Reader Guillotina's Avatar
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    I think our game "Deck Mafia" would run perfectly with Sit-and-Go system. Don't you think @TripleHaven
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  19. ISO #69
    five people have died Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    i first learned of this queue when i learned it was being cancelled

  20. ISO #70
    Billy GOAT Gruff billymills's Avatar
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    I don't keep track of what signups are on-going unless they're spammed in MU discord every hour on the hour.

    TY ara and UD

    Bringing signups to discord/something more real-time is the play
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranmilia
    Unfortunately I am compelled to say that billymills is 100% correct.

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