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Thread: Article #26: Producing Meaningful Content (by Quick)

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    Article #26: Producing Meaningful Content (by Quick)

    Article #26: Producing Meaningful Content
    - written by Quick

    Introduction

    I think we all intuitively know what this means on a surface level. We all know content is the words on the screen we are reading in order to solve the game. But it goes deeper than that. There are good kinds of content and bad kinds of content. This article is aimed at Semi-Open to Mountainous setups consisting of the standard 13 players. This article does not apply to role madness or bastard games. This will be good for Automated Games and Light Games.

    Definition

    A general definition of content will be necessary here – not so that you can use my definition for the word content, but so that you know what I mean when I say the word content in this article.

    My definition of content is: The degree to which a post helps Town win. to further extrapolate on this, content is the information that is presented by a player with the aim of posting in line with their win condition, that is, for Town to try and solve the game, and for Scum to Eliminate Town.

    Content helps solve the game for Town. So how do we produce meaningful content? I will break this up into different conceptions of content starting from the beginning and (hopefully) provide an analysis that will help you produce more meaningful content in your games.

    What is content?

    Everything – every post is a form of content. As such, content is not a binary thing, but more of a sliding scale of percentage of effectiveness. Every post has it’s own content level. A post that has a High Content level will greatly help Eliminate Scum. A post that has a Medium Content level will help solve the game in other ways. A post that has a Low Content level will provide information about the current state of the game. A post with Very Low content level will be a post that does not accomplish much, does not help solve the game, or does not help Town to win in much of a meaningful way.

    Effectiveness

    We might think about these 4 levels of content in terms of percentage of effectiveness to help Town solve the game.

    High Content posts would be about 75% effective, Medium Content posts would be about 50% effective, Low Content posts would be about 25% effective, and Very Low Content posts would be about 7.5% effective.

    Let me explain this a bit.

    A High Content post is helpful for all Town players in the game. So, Total Town/Total players*100~75%.
    A Medium Content post helps about 1/2 of the Town players. So, .5*Town/Total*100~55%.
    A Low Content post helps about 1/3 of the Town players in the game. So, .33*Town/Total players*100~25%.
    A Very Low Content post might help 10% of the players on average. So, .1*Town/Total players*100~7.5%.

    Content Levels: Definitions and Examples

    Some examples of these content levels:

    High Content: Any post that catches at least one Scum player in a single post (there are possibilities of catching more than one Scum in a single post, but that would be a Ultra High Content post and those hardly ever happens). So for example, if a cop gets a guilty on a Scum member, and then says that they have a guilty in the thread, then this would be a High Content post. Of course, High Content posts can be made without a hard guilty investigation. For example, if a player blatantly catches a Scum player in a lie then that could be a high content post as well. There are also situations where a cumulative case can be made on someone that would also be considered a High Content post.

    Medium Content: Any posts content that helps solve the game for Town another way besides High Content posts. Some general examples of this are Scum hunting, changing the gamestate for the better, or motivating other players. From a successful gambit, to a post that is 10% new, to strange/different reasoning from the norm, to high WIM are the kinds of posts that make them good for Town’s chance to win. Medium Content posts can sometimes help catch Scum, but it would take more than one post to do so. I like to think about Medium Content posts as the bulk of a Town players posts you take as parts of a whole. A post that provides some sort of reasoning and conclusion associated with a post that is not a strict guilty on a player is also likely a Medium Content post. A medium content post is a post that makes Town think more clearly about the game.

    Low Content: Any post that gives information about a player (or players) in the game that does not necessarily provide reasoning and/or a conclusion. This would be something like a Reads List, IIoA, or a recap of certain events that have happened in the game without providing any conclusive analysis or reasoning for the post. Low Content posts can be lengthy at times or they can be short. An example of this king of post would be when you are in a discussion with another player and you are going back and forth recalling what has happened in the thread already. And example would be, "Thingyman voted Ampharos after Makaze."

    Very Low Content: Any post that does not have a well reasoned conclusion about a player, tells very little about any players in the game, or does not help motivate Town to win. An example of this is RVS/RQS, naked votes, or a single read on a single player with no explanation. Very Low Content posts have their place, but very sparingly (IMO). In short an example would be something like "Thingymna is Rand<V." And this is especially so if there is no context for the read/vote/statement. So for example, If I were to say "Thingyman is Scum" but I do not provide any context for that, then this would be a Very Low context post. You could say a step in between Low Content posts and Very Low Content posts would be to quote a post and simply say "Town," or something like that.

    Game Stages

    There are certain phases of content throughout the game. Generally content is Very Low in RVS/RQS but this is not always the case. But in the later states of the game, there are more and more opportunities for High Content posts. When the pressure rises, that is often when it’s easiest to spot Town and nail Scum.

    Early Game: How do you produce content in early stages of the game? In this stage, you want to start with Very Low Content posts. I’m a firm believer that RVS/RQS must be as short as can be managed. In this stage, sometime providing Very Low Content posts such as naked reads or votes can help Town start thinking about the game more critically. For example, if everyone is just joking around and not doing much with game solving and you throw a naked vote down on the highest wagon at the time with no explanation, this is a good way to get out of RVS. Similarly, if you say in a neutral tone that someone is Scum and do not explain anything, then that can get people talking. You can also do these strategies and then just walk away from the computer for a few hours and come back and see what has happened in the game. Alternatively, you can give a Town read on a player with reasoning and see how the players react. This works because people will question what you are doing and may motivate them to get in the frame of mind to analyze the game more critically. It's early enough in the game that you don't really have to worry about that being something that will get you Elimed necessarily (as long as you can explain what you were doing later). Very Low Content posts help get Town in the frame of mind to solve the game because their immediate reaction to these kinds of posts is to try and figure out what you are doing.

    Early/Mid Game: How do you produce content in the Early Middle of the game? In this stage, you want to be making Low Content posts. The first thing you should understand is that you have to have your facts straight as to what has happened in the game so far. Sometime during the last half of D1 or D2 you might want to do a reread of the game. This site has a fantastic notes system called bookmarks. I highly recommend using this. It will make your life easier (unless you are GeneralHandkerchief, in which case, he don't need no stinkin’ notes!). This should be the strategy stage for you. How are you going to approach playing the rest of the game? How do you plan to make your reads more concrete? How are you going to narrow a PoE? To do these things, you have to have the facts and a plan (do as I say, not as I do). And once you have understood what has happened in the game at this point in time, making posts that given information about what has already happened gives Town a way to digest all the craziness that happened in RVS/RQS. Low Content posts during this stage also help Town think by providing a springboard of information for them to start producing higher content.

    Mid Game: How do you produce content in the Middle of the game? In this stage, you want to be making Medium Content posts. How do you start doing this? The first advice I can give here is to always, always always give a reason for your vote in the post you have voted a player. Not only is this really convenient for Town to see why you are voting that person by seeing the post you voted them itself, but it helps keep your ISO very organized. You can always just post a link to your reasoning if you don't have any new reasons (I fail at this at times because I learned bad habits when I first started). Secondly, this is a great stage to start to ask more thoughtful questions to other players in the game. And you also want to make sure you are Scum hunting. You might have a few strong TRs at this time. Bounce ideas off them and ask your PoE players more probing questions about their motives for what they have done in the game. You want to explain your reasoning for people and draw a definitive conclusion about players in the game. There is also an unconscious effect of Medium Content posts for certain kinds of content. For example, if a player is never within the consensus of the game, this actually helps Town solve the game. The reason for this is that the immediate reaction to a player having controversial reads is “Wut?” This has the effect of unconsciously causing Town players to question what they have been thinking about the game and reevaluate in a productive way. And of course, this works a lot better if you have reasons to back up these slightly-off-the-norm conclusions. It is akin to pruning a vine. If the player has a PoV that is off the beaten path from the norm just a bit, this causes the other players to want to correct themselves and make sure they have accurate reads.

    Late Game: How do you produce content at the end of the game? In this stage, you want to aim for High Content posts. It is crucial that everyone in the game knows where you stand on the majority of the players in the game at this stage. The best thing you can do as Town at the end of the game is be as transparent as possible. You should have a narrow PoE at this point. You need to work on making it smaller. I know, this is really really hard to do in practice, but at the end stages of the game, confidence is what wins games for Town. If you have been playing the way I suggest from before this point throughout the game, then you should be on track to make some devastating posts against Scum. This should theoretically be where you do most of your ISO work on the remaining players/PoE. At this point, you want to be able to make a case on at least one person who you are confident is Scum. Catching Scum in a lie, or in their Low Content post(From Town’s PoV) can help bring Town to victory. Also, don't be afraid to make wall posts. At this stage is do or die, so you have nothing to lose and no reason to hold back.

    All of this information about the stages of the game compared to the level of content all hinges on psychological factors for the other members of the Town. For example, in the beginning stages of the game the key to providing meaningful content is to stick out and be different from the rest of Town by enough that you don’t kill the production of content altogether, while at the end of the game, you want to be the Town leader who everyone wants to sheep because you are playing so well. You can kill the content in the game for a period altogether if what you are posting is too different. Or if you start making exceptionally long posts that goes strongly against the grain then people cannot track with you at all and as such it can stall the game since no one knows how to handle that. They become like a deer stuck in the headlights. Be different, but not so different that people can't relate to you.

    Game Pace

    There is a correlation with how fast the pace of the game is as well. I will detail how to adjust what kind of content you produce based on the pace of the game. the general rule of thumb I would give is to match the general activity level of the thread. High Content posts require more effort than Low Content post.

    Very Slow: It’s best to aim for High Content posts in this kind of game generally. You want to take your time to watch what you are saying and what others are saying very closely in these kinds of games. People theoretically should be scrutinizing every word you use in a game like this. As such, you would want to be doing the same. Sometimes a single word choice is enough to give you a good lead on things. So, when you make your posts in a Very Slow game, reread what you have written several times. And feel free to write in a more long winded nature. First, post what comes to your mind after taking some time to think about what you want to say. Then proof read what you wrote and change things as necessary. When the game is slow, but there are say, a half-dozen or so posts per hour or less, then it’s time to start transitioning to Medium Content posts. In a game where you are getting 2 posts per hour or less is when you have to both be more well read on the game than anyone else, and be able to explain in detail what you are thinking and why.

    Slow/Medium Game: Its best to make Medium Content post in this kind of game generally. I recommend being able to generally recall what has happened in the game in this kind of game for all the time you are posting in the game. In this way, you want to have a aura of confidence in terms of knowing what you are talking about. You don't want to just make a bunch of one liners in this kind of game or you will come across as a little psycho. I’d suggest most of your posts in this kind of game to be about 3-5 separate lines of complete thought if you are not posting quote walls. Remember in this kind of game you don't have to post about everything as long as you know what is happening. Your posts should be well thought through in this kind of game. You also might want to try some elaborate gambits or other traps for Scum. Creativity in this kind of game goes a long way.

    Medium Game: It's best to make Low Content posts in this kind of game generally. I recommend just getting your thoughts out there as they come to you. you want to stay current in the game and provide a kind of flow to your thoughts in these kinds of games. This will help other players TR you. You’re Town, you know you are Town, and so you automatically have Town thought process. Let that show. Not to say you can’t use spell check or anything like that, but you should be trying to throw ideas out there and seeing what kind of reactions players have in these kinds of games. Throw in some High Content and Medium Content posts every now and then. When the game is going at a good pace, say, 1200 posts for D1, then you can probably mix in some more Low Content posts to help the game slow down a bit. This might even be better if it’s a bit longer post (but not too long). I really don’t think there is much reason to give Very Low Content post regarding threadstate.

    Fast Game: It's best to make Low Content post in this kind of game as well generally. In a Fast Paced game, I really recommend being as transparent with your thoughts as possible. It will be difficult to have a very good idea of all the things that have happened in the game or all the changes in reads players have in this kind of game. You can make sure you. Recapping on what has happened in the game already is a really good idea because it reminds people what that Scummy thing was actually about way back to page 5. In this kind of game, you would need someone to be a fact checker for the game to keep people honest. Until the heard thins a bit, you will want to work on giving reads and a bit of reasoning for them in these kinds of game. I would also suggest asking players if they could make a Reads List so when you go back to ISO in a later part of the game, you can see what people's reads were. Throw in some Medium Content posts for good measure.

    Scum Content

    There is some missing details here so let me try and fill them in. Scum are in the game. Scum do actually produce content for the game. Every post Scum makes is content for the game that helps solve the game for Town. As long as Scum do not post, Town cannot read them. Therefore, every post that a Scum player makes is content for the game. Now you might be thinking, “Yeah, but Scum lie.” Yes, Scum lie, but Town tell the truth. If Scum are lying then the goal is to shed light on what they are lying about. And Scum can’t lie as well as Town can tell the truth. So Town necessarily has a net gain compared to completely random votes and players (which is 11 Town to 2 Scum in case you wanted to know that). In this way, you can think about the content that Scum produce being the inverse of the content that Town produce.

    Cliffs:

    • Content is the degree to which a post helps Town win.
    • The four primary levels of content a post has are High, Medium, Low, and Very Low. High Content posts have 75% effectiveness, Medium Content posts have 50% effectiveness, Low Content posts have 25% effectiveness, and Very Low Content posts have 7.5% effectiveness.
    • High Content posts attempt to catch Scum. Medium Content posts helps solve the game in other ways. Low Content posts provide information on what has already happened. Very Low Content posts don't accomplish much.
    • Very Low Content to High Content in general is correlated with the phase of the game from Early Game to Late Game respectively.
    • Low Content to High content in general is correlated with the pace of the game from a Fast Game to a Very Slow Game respectively.
    • Scum also provide content for the game but it is the inverse of what it is for Town.
    Last edited by Voxxicus; September 6th, 2021 at 01:38 PM.

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    Wielder of the Triforce Wisdom's Avatar
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    Great article and something I've pondered about myself!

    In addition, isn't information conveyed in a number of words also relevant when it comes to a post's content effectiveness?

    As in, I believe wolves tends to drag out the content they're making in order to make the post seem more effective than it actually is.

    I like to talk about a fluff per post ratio, as in, how many % could have been cut from this post and still delivered the same point with the same argument?

    In addition, I think town should strive for to have as little fluff as possible in their medium+ content posts. Information overload is a thing and it doesn't matter how correct your arguments are if the reader can't take in the information.

    That generally leaves a difficult balance, to have a huge post to show how much you've thought about this, or to keep it short to make it easy to read.

    Are you with me on this, Voxx?
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    you'll pry my very low content posts from my cold dead hands

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    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Tbh, this article is biased in favor of analysis posts.

    For example, consider a hypothetical extreme (unrealistic) scenario where everyone's just vibing but everyone's got 100+ interactions with every slot in the game. I guarantee you that if you had 100+ interactions with every slot in the game, you'd have a very good idea to where to put your vote and would have a good PoE.

    From the readers and other players POV though, they'd be forced to read through a lot of posts that are useless for them + they'd easily miss important posts. It's all pros&cons.

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    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    The words "high" and "low" feel wrong, since they can be misunderstood to correspond to effort or volume. "Heavy" and "light" would be better IYAM.

    Overall, the concept is correct, but is is too rigid, to the point that it can lead to some faulty actions in the name of conforming to the mathematical standard.

    A critique:

    Premise: Player A gets a red check on Player B.

    Scenario 1: Player A posts the red check at the start of the phase and posts medium content throughout the rest of the phase.
    Scenario 2: Player A allows the game to progress normally, producing medium content throughout the next phase. Player A withholds revealing the red check until the near the end of the phase.

    Conclusion: The absence of heavy content in the first 80% of the phase can have a higher expected value than the presence of the same content for 100% of the phase. Ergo, the weight of heavy content is increased by waiting to contribute as long as possible.

    This also seems misleading because of the certitude that mechanical information provides as opposed to someone slipping up. You can produce content that appears to "catch" the mafia, and it is meaningful, but it still relies on a flip. You will only convince some of the players. Because of this, the suspect has some wiggle room to argue their way out of it. They can change minds, including the mind of the one who caught them. But a cop check is mechanically certain. It changes the game. It can produce a certain elimination even if the content is presented close to the end of a phase. It requires little to no processing on the part of the readers. It will not be fought against except with a counter claim.

    All other forms of being "caught" are fundamentally different. Do these fit in a different category, or are all non-mechanical catches medium by default?
    Last edited by Makaze; September 6th, 2021 at 02:38 PM.
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    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: remember that we are marking down all of your reads to hold for our personal amusement
    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#4807)
    i'm about to make makaze's pronouns was/were

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    Wants It More Quick's Avatar
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    @Wisdom, @Makaze,

    FMPOV, High content does not necessarily mean how many words you are typing and I largely did not tackle "when," as in, specific instances where you would post X Content post per Y situation, but I gave a couple examples.

    You can think of High vs Very Low as more of a form of deductive vs. subjective on a sliding scale. Where Very Low content posts work is when, say, there is not much content in the game (at a particular point) and you need to force Town to play devils advocate to what you are saying (bonus points for not lying in doing such so you can argue you point more down the road).

    Of course, as @Syn mentions, some of this has to do with playstyle as well. I tried to aim for a more optimal/general strategy rather than trying to give every single scenario under the sun.
    Last edited by Quick; September 6th, 2021 at 07:37 PM.
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

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    Wants It More Quick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#5)
    The words "high" and "low" feel wrong, since they can be misunderstood to correspond to effort or volume. "Heavy" and "light" would be better IYAM.
    I called it High and Very Low because of how much it helps Town. High will help all Town players and very low will help very few. But you could be right that perhaps it would be better to call it Heavy and Light.

    Overall, the concept is correct, but is is too rigid, to the point that it can lead to some faulty actions in the name of conforming to the mathematical standard.
    Perhaps I was not explicit about this enough, but I did try and mention that you should be mixing up your content in some situations. I just didn't give the ins and outs of that.
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

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    Wants It More Quick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#5)
    All other forms of being "caught" are fundamentally different. Do these fit in a different category, or are all non-mechanical catches medium by default?
    Right, that's why I said in my other post that you can think about High vs. Very Low in terms of Deductive vs Subjective, or Conclusive vs. Tentative if you prefer that terminology instead.
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

  9. ISO #9
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#8)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#5)
    All other forms of being "caught" are fundamentally different. Do these fit in a different category, or are all non-mechanical catches medium by default?
    Right, that's why I said in my other post that you can think about High vs. Very Low in terms of Deductive vs Subjective, or Conclusive vs. Tentative if you prefer that terminology instead.
    This doesn't seem to answer the question.
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    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: remember that we are marking down all of your reads to hold for our personal amusement
    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#4807)
    i'm about to make makaze's pronouns was/were

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    Wielder of the Triforce Wisdom's Avatar
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    Oh, Quick wrote it, my bad!
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    Wants It More Quick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#9)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#8)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#5)
    All other forms of being "caught" are fundamentally different. Do these fit in a different category, or are all non-mechanical catches medium by default?
    Right, that's why I said in my other post that you can think about High vs. Very Low in terms of Deductive vs Subjective, or Conclusive vs. Tentative if you prefer that terminology instead.
    This doesn't seem to answer the question.
    I suppose. I tried to say a High Content post that is NOT a strict guilty has essentially the same effect. Basically catching Scum red handed. Granted it is a LOT harder to do this based on play, but it is possible. High Content posts are the kinds of posts that get Scum Elimmed for the right reasons, basically, all done in a single post. Other ways of catching Scum might require multiple posts, such as setting them up with a gambit or something like that. The way I view High Content posts is that it catches Scum based on facts, not interpretation. That's why I said most of Towns content would be in the Medium Content category - because those posts are very helpful for Town solving the game, but they are not as Concrete in terms of things based on facts in the game. I suppose you could argue that this is impossible without a guilty, but aren't those kinds of posts the things we strive for as the pinnacle of good Town play? Basically, I tried to set it up so that High Content posts are the kinds of posts that are very difficult for Scum to argue against. They are the kinds of posts that make Scum lol!cat post.

    But aside from all that, if you looking at non-mechanical/non-condmning posts that are the kinds of post that lead to Scum getting Elimmed, but are simply argued better than their Scum counterparts, then those would be Medium Content posts. I many not have said that explicitly, but it was obvious to me as I was writing it that this is the case. Perhaps a blind spot in my communicating.

    Let me know if this answers your question.
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

  12. ISO #12
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#11)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#9)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#8)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#5)
    All other forms of being "caught" are fundamentally different. Do these fit in a different category, or are all non-mechanical catches medium by default?
    Right, that's why I said in my other post that you can think about High vs. Very Low in terms of Deductive vs Subjective, or Conclusive vs. Tentative if you prefer that terminology instead.
    This doesn't seem to answer the question.
    I suppose. I tried to say a High Content post that is NOT a strict guilty has essentially the same effect. Basically catching Scum red handed. Granted it is a LOT harder to do this based on play, but it is possible. High Content posts are the kinds of posts that get Scum Elimmed for the right reasons, basically, all done in a single post. Other ways of catching Scum might require multiple posts, such as setting them up with a gambit or something like that. The way I view High Content posts is that it catches Scum based on facts, not interpretation. That's why I said most of Towns content would be in the Medium Content category - because those posts are very helpful for Town solving the game, but they are not as Concrete in terms of things based on facts in the game. I suppose you could argue that this is impossible without a guilty, but aren't those kinds of posts the things we strive for as the pinnacle of good Town play? Basically, I tried to set it up so that High Content posts are the kinds of posts that are very difficult for Scum to argue against. They are the kinds of posts that make Scum lol!cat post.

    But aside from all that, if you looking at non-mechanical/non-condmning posts that are the kinds of post that lead to Scum getting Elimmed, but are simply argued better than their Scum counterparts, then those would be Medium Content posts. I many not have said that explicitly, but it was obvious to me as I was writing it that this is the case. Perhaps a blind spot in my communicating.

    Let me know if this answers your question.
    Thanks.

    Mechanical content is fundamentally different to me because of the impact it has on the game. It is not possible for a town to mistakenly think they read a red check. It is possible to mistakenly think something is a lie. Mechanical claims lock one as a wolf every time.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: remember that we are marking down all of your reads to hold for our personal amusement
    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#4807)
    i'm about to make makaze's pronouns was/were

  13. ISO #13
    Wants It More Quick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#12)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#11)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#9)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#8)
    Right, that's why I said in my other post that you can think about High vs. Very Low in terms of Deductive vs Subjective, or Conclusive vs. Tentative if you prefer that terminology instead.
    This doesn't seem to answer the question.
    I suppose. I tried to say a High Content post that is NOT a strict guilty has essentially the same effect. Basically catching Scum red handed. Granted it is a LOT harder to do this based on play, but it is possible. High Content posts are the kinds of posts that get Scum Elimmed for the right reasons, basically, all done in a single post. Other ways of catching Scum might require multiple posts, such as setting them up with a gambit or something like that. The way I view High Content posts is that it catches Scum based on facts, not interpretation. That's why I said most of Towns content would be in the Medium Content category - because those posts are very helpful for Town solving the game, but they are not as Concrete in terms of things based on facts in the game. I suppose you could argue that this is impossible without a guilty, but aren't those kinds of posts the things we strive for as the pinnacle of good Town play? Basically, I tried to set it up so that High Content posts are the kinds of posts that are very difficult for Scum to argue against. They are the kinds of posts that make Scum lol!cat post.

    But aside from all that, if you looking at non-mechanical/non-condmning posts that are the kinds of post that lead to Scum getting Elimmed, but are simply argued better than their Scum counterparts, then those would be Medium Content posts. I many not have said that explicitly, but it was obvious to me as I was writing it that this is the case. Perhaps a blind spot in my communicating.

    Let me know if this answers your question.
    Thanks.

    Mechanical content is fundamentally different to me because of the impact it has on the game. It is not possible for a town to mistakenly think they read a red check. It is possible to mistakenly think something is a lie. Mechanical claims lock one as a wolf every time.
    I can't tell if this is a difference in opinion or not. A lot of roles in the game can catch Scum but are also subjective. I'm working on a setup now with false clears and false guilties, for example. In those situations, geting a red check is undeniably valuable to Town, but if it's not a strict 100% guilty, then it doesn't offer the same confidence that only a cop can give.
    Last edited by Quick; September 6th, 2021 at 04:01 PM.
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

  14. ISO #14
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#13)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#12)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#11)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#9)
    This doesn't seem to answer the question.
    I suppose. I tried to say a High Content post that is NOT a strict guilty has essentially the same effect. Basically catching Scum red handed. Granted it is a LOT harder to do this based on play, but it is possible. High Content posts are the kinds of posts that get Scum Elimmed for the right reasons, basically, all done in a single post. Other ways of catching Scum might require multiple posts, such as setting them up with a gambit or something like that. The way I view High Content posts is that it catches Scum based on facts, not interpretation. That's why I said most of Towns content would be in the Medium Content category - because those posts are very helpful for Town solving the game, but they are not as Concrete in terms of things based on facts in the game. I suppose you could argue that this is impossible without a guilty, but aren't those kinds of posts the things we strive for as the pinnacle of good Town play? Basically, I tried to set it up so that High Content posts are the kinds of posts that are very difficult for Scum to argue against. They are the kinds of posts that make Scum lol!cat post.

    But aside from all that, if you looking at non-mechanical/non-condmning posts that are the kinds of post that lead to Scum getting Elimmed, but are simply argued better than their Scum counterparts, then those would be Medium Content posts. I many not have said that explicitly, but it was obvious to me as I was writing it that this is the case. Perhaps a blind spot in my communicating.

    Let me know if this answers your question.
    Thanks.

    Mechanical content is fundamentally different to me because of the impact it has on the game. It is not possible for a town to mistakenly think they read a red check. It is possible to mistakenly think something is a lie. Mechanical claims lock one as a wolf every time.
    I can't tell if this is a difference in opinion or not. A lot of roles in the game can catch Scum but are also subjective. I'm working on a setup now with false clears and guilties, for example. In those situations, geting a red check is undeniably valuable to Town, but if it's not a strict 100% guilty, then it doesn't offer the same confidence that only a cop can give.
    I'm somewhat against false check mechanics and prefer mechanics that don't lie, like motion detector, tracker, or replacing godfather and miller with multiple investigation immune roles (e.g. 3 investigation immune town and one investigation immune mafia) so that results are ambiguous without being lies.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: remember that we are marking down all of your reads to hold for our personal amusement
    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#4807)
    i'm about to make makaze's pronouns was/were

  15. ISO #15
    Wants It More Quick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#14)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#13)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#12)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#11)
    I suppose. I tried to say a High Content post that is NOT a strict guilty has essentially the same effect. Basically catching Scum red handed. Granted it is a LOT harder to do this based on play, but it is possible. High Content posts are the kinds of posts that get Scum Elimmed for the right reasons, basically, all done in a single post. Other ways of catching Scum might require multiple posts, such as setting them up with a gambit or something like that. The way I view High Content posts is that it catches Scum based on facts, not interpretation. That's why I said most of Towns content would be in the Medium Content category - because those posts are very helpful for Town solving the game, but they are not as Concrete in terms of things based on facts in the game. I suppose you could argue that this is impossible without a guilty, but aren't those kinds of posts the things we strive for as the pinnacle of good Town play? Basically, I tried to set it up so that High Content posts are the kinds of posts that are very difficult for Scum to argue against. They are the kinds of posts that make Scum lol!cat post.

    But aside from all that, if you looking at non-mechanical/non-condmning posts that are the kinds of post that lead to Scum getting Elimmed, but are simply argued better than their Scum counterparts, then those would be Medium Content posts. I many not have said that explicitly, but it was obvious to me as I was writing it that this is the case. Perhaps a blind spot in my communicating.

    Let me know if this answers your question.
    Thanks.

    Mechanical content is fundamentally different to me because of the impact it has on the game. It is not possible for a town to mistakenly think they read a red check. It is possible to mistakenly think something is a lie. Mechanical claims lock one as a wolf every time.
    I can't tell if this is a difference in opinion or not. A lot of roles in the game can catch Scum but are also subjective. I'm working on a setup now with false clears and guilties, for example. In those situations, geting a red check is undeniably valuable to Town, but if it's not a strict 100% guilty, then it doesn't offer the same confidence that only a cop can give.
    I'm somewhat against false check mechanics and prefer mechanics that don't lie, like motion detector, tracker, or replacing godfather and miller with multiple investigation immune roles (e.g. 3 investigation immune town and one investigation immune mafia) so that results are ambiguous without being lies.
    Well, I'm not an expert at making setups. I'm not actually an expert at anything in Mafia (but that's besides the point). If we are talking mechanical clears/guilties, then those are definitely possible in the game I am making, but not just from one post. It would take more than one claim to get a confirmed guilty in my setup. And my game doesn't have Godfather or Miller either as I consider those bastard roles. I'd divulge more, but it's still getting looked at in the setup private section.
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

  16. ISO #16
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#15)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#14)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#13)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#12)
    Thanks.

    Mechanical content is fundamentally different to me because of the impact it has on the game. It is not possible for a town to mistakenly think they read a red check. It is possible to mistakenly think something is a lie. Mechanical claims lock one as a wolf every time.
    I can't tell if this is a difference in opinion or not. A lot of roles in the game can catch Scum but are also subjective. I'm working on a setup now with false clears and guilties, for example. In those situations, geting a red check is undeniably valuable to Town, but if it's not a strict 100% guilty, then it doesn't offer the same confidence that only a cop can give.
    I'm somewhat against false check mechanics and prefer mechanics that don't lie, like motion detector, tracker, or replacing godfather and miller with multiple investigation immune roles (e.g. 3 investigation immune town and one investigation immune mafia) so that results are ambiguous without being lies.
    Well, I'm not an expert at making setups. I'm not actually an expert at anything in Mafia (but that's besides the point). If we are talking mechanical clears/guilties, then those are definitely possible in the game I am making, but not just from one post. It would take more than one claim to get a confirmed guilty in my setup. And my game doesn't have Godfather or Miller either as I consider those bastard roles. I'd divulge more, but it's still getting looked at in the setup private section.
    My original criticism stems from putting claims of mechanical results on the same level as catching mafia in subjective ways. Even false claims of mechanical results have vastly different impacts on the game than false claims of subjective catches because they do not rely on subjective beliefs.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: remember that we are marking down all of your reads to hold for our personal amusement
    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#4807)
    i'm about to make makaze's pronouns was/were

  17. ISO #17
    Wants It More Quick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#16)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#15)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#14)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#13)
    I can't tell if this is a difference in opinion or not. A lot of roles in the game can catch Scum but are also subjective. I'm working on a setup now with false clears and guilties, for example. In those situations, geting a red check is undeniably valuable to Town, but if it's not a strict 100% guilty, then it doesn't offer the same confidence that only a cop can give.
    I'm somewhat against false check mechanics and prefer mechanics that don't lie, like motion detector, tracker, or replacing godfather and miller with multiple investigation immune roles (e.g. 3 investigation immune town and one investigation immune mafia) so that results are ambiguous without being lies.
    Well, I'm not an expert at making setups. I'm not actually an expert at anything in Mafia (but that's besides the point). If we are talking mechanical clears/guilties, then those are definitely possible in the game I am making, but not just from one post. It would take more than one claim to get a confirmed guilty in my setup. And my game doesn't have Godfather or Miller either as I consider those bastard roles. I'd divulge more, but it's still getting looked at in the setup private section.
    My original criticism stems from putting claims of mechanical results on the same level as catching mafia in subjective ways. Even false claims of mechanical results have vastly different impacts on the game than false claims of subjective catches because they do not rely on subjective beliefs.
    I hear what you are saying, but I'd say my article focuses more on the psychological impacts of level of content for the whole game rather than just what is known by the player producing the content.

    If I have you right, High Content posts are not possible in Mountainous setups. Would you say that is accurate for you?

    It's probably partly my fault that I said High Content posts include guilties. If I would have left guilties out of the equation, then you probably wouldn't have this criticism. I think you are right that claims are different than other kinds of content, but I wanted to leave room for very good posts that were able to be made apart from guilty claims.

    Maybe this is a difference in philosophy. I personally am a player who thinks PRs can conflate how a game might otherwise be played without them. I think PRs are fun sometimes, but I'd prefer PRs to only aid in helping Town and not be the most important part of the game. In the end, I still want the game to be won or lost based on Scum hunting and not won because one faction has used their abilities better than the other. But maybe that is personal preference.
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

  18. ISO #18
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#17)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#16)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#15)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#14)
    I'm somewhat against false check mechanics and prefer mechanics that don't lie, like motion detector, tracker, or replacing godfather and miller with multiple investigation immune roles (e.g. 3 investigation immune town and one investigation immune mafia) so that results are ambiguous without being lies.
    Well, I'm not an expert at making setups. I'm not actually an expert at anything in Mafia (but that's besides the point). If we are talking mechanical clears/guilties, then those are definitely possible in the game I am making, but not just from one post. It would take more than one claim to get a confirmed guilty in my setup. And my game doesn't have Godfather or Miller either as I consider those bastard roles. I'd divulge more, but it's still getting looked at in the setup private section.
    My original criticism stems from putting claims of mechanical results on the same level as catching mafia in subjective ways. Even false claims of mechanical results have vastly different impacts on the game than false claims of subjective catches because they do not rely on subjective beliefs.
    I hear what you are saying, but I'd say my article focuses more on the psychological impacts of level of content for the whole game rather than just what is known by the player producing the content.

    If I have you right, High Content posts are not possible in Mountainous setups. Would you say that is accurate for you?

    It's probably partly my fault that I said High Content posts include guilties. If I would have left guilties out of the equation, then you probably wouldn't have this criticism. I think you are right that claims are different than other kinds of content, but I wanted to leave room for very good posts that were able to be made apart from guilty claims.

    Maybe this is a difference in philosophy. I personally am a player who thinks PRs can conflate how a game might otherwise be played without them. I think PRs are fun sometimes, but I'd prefer PRs to only aid in helping Town and not be the most important part of the game. In the end, I still want the game to be won or lost based on Scum hunting and not won because one faction has used their abilities better than the other. But maybe that is personal preference.
    I would contend that PRs introduce a level of content above your article, but that problem is resolved in mountainous.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: remember that we are marking down all of your reads to hold for our personal amusement
    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#4807)
    i'm about to make makaze's pronouns was/were

  19. ISO #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#18)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#17)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#16)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#15)
    Well, I'm not an expert at making setups. I'm not actually an expert at anything in Mafia (but that's besides the point). If we are talking mechanical clears/guilties, then those are definitely possible in the game I am making, but not just from one post. It would take more than one claim to get a confirmed guilty in my setup. And my game doesn't have Godfather or Miller either as I consider those bastard roles. I'd divulge more, but it's still getting looked at in the setup private section.
    My original criticism stems from putting claims of mechanical results on the same level as catching mafia in subjective ways. Even false claims of mechanical results have vastly different impacts on the game than false claims of subjective catches because they do not rely on subjective beliefs.
    I hear what you are saying, but I'd say my article focuses more on the psychological impacts of level of content for the whole game rather than just what is known by the player producing the content.

    If I have you right, High Content posts are not possible in Mountainous setups. Would you say that is accurate for you?

    It's probably partly my fault that I said High Content posts include guilties. If I would have left guilties out of the equation, then you probably wouldn't have this criticism. I think you are right that claims are different than other kinds of content, but I wanted to leave room for very good posts that were able to be made apart from guilty claims.

    Maybe this is a difference in philosophy. I personally am a player who thinks PRs can conflate how a game might otherwise be played without them. I think PRs are fun sometimes, but I'd prefer PRs to only aid in helping Town and not be the most important part of the game. In the end, I still want the game to be won or lost based on Scum hunting and not won because one faction has used their abilities better than the other. But maybe that is personal preference.
    I would contend that PRs introduce a level of content above your article, but that problem is resolved in mountainous.
    You're right. PRs generally take center stage in games. So much so that the whole game ends up revolving around how well those PRs play.

    We can talk about PRs being a "level above my article" but this article is based on content, not PR play.

    If someone wants to make an article based on how to produce content as a PR, they are free to do so, but that is out of the scope of what I've said. But given most of the Town in the game are VT, my article still largely applies to correct play.

    The fundamental difference (I think) is that I DON'T think PRs should vastly outweigh whatever VTs do in the game. Also, I specifically said this article was aimed at semi-open to mountainous setups and not based on producing meaningful content as a PR. That would be a completely different article. My article has a scope that is aimed at how you should play in these kinds of setups.

    I talked about some things in this article I have been thinking about for a long time. It feels like you are dismissing the whole thing because I didn't talk about how to produce meaningful content as a PR. I would simply say in my defense that this advice applies to PRs as well, it just may not cover all the ins and outs of how to play PR specifically. Maybe that is what you are looking for in this article.

    Sorry my article is not to your liking.
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

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    Soul Reader Alison's Avatar
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    Can you summarize the point of this article in one sentence?
    There's nothing that says a fake can't surpass the real thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voxxicus (#1)
    Very Low Content: Any post that does not have a well reasoned conclusion about a player, tells very little about any players in the game, or does not help motivate Town to win. An example of this is RVS/RQS, naked votes, or a single read on a single player with no explanation. Very Low Content posts have their place, but very sparingly (IMO). In short an example would be something like "Thingymna is Rand<V." And this is especially so if there is no context for the read/vote/statement. So for example, If I were to say "Thingyman is Scum" but I do not provide any context for that, then this would be a Very Low context post. You could say a step in between Low Content posts and Very Low Content posts would be to quote a post and simply say "Town," or something like that.
    oops

    this is like all my posts lol
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; September 7th, 2021 at 09:12 AM.
    No, and yes, possibly no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alison (#20)
    Can you summarize the point of this article in one sentence?
    IDK why that would be more helpful than the cliff notes, but I can try.

    Something like this: Try and produce content that makes Town think better about the game either by the state of the thread or the stage of the game.
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#21)
    Quote Originally Posted by Voxxicus (#1)
    Very Low Content: Any post that does not have a well reasoned conclusion about a player, tells very little about any players in the game, or does not help motivate Town to win. An example of this is RVS/RQS, naked votes, or a single read on a single player with no explanation. Very Low Content posts have their place, but very sparingly (IMO). In short an example would be something like "Thingymna is Rand<V." And this is especially so if there is no context for the read/vote/statement. So for example, If I were to say "Thingyman is Scum" but I do not provide any context for that, then this would be a Very Low context post. You could say a step in between Low Content posts and Very Low Content posts would be to quote a post and simply say "Town," or something like that.
    oops

    this is like all my posts lol
    If I was going to offer some advice to you it would be to try and spend more time on your content if the situation calls for it. For example, like I said, if the thread is slow, or you are in late game, take more time to produce more quality posts. It can be hard to shift gears if you are used to posting a certain way, but you will become a better player if you can produce content based on what I talked about in the article. I would also add that in D1 low content posts are fine mostly. Finally, from what I got from the game we played together, I wouldn't say all your posts are Very Low Content. I think you mix up your posts a bit more than that. You might post more on the lower end in general, but if you can work toward making a bit higher quality posts I think you will become a better Mafia player.
    Last edited by Quick; September 7th, 2021 at 01:16 PM.
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

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    Soul Reader Alison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#22)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alison (#20)
    Can you summarize the point of this article in one sentence?
    IDK why that would be more helpful than the cliff notes, but I can try.

    Something like this: Try and produce content that makes Town think better about the game either by the state of the thread or the stage of the game.
    Why would you intentionally shoot for low content early game then?
    There's nothing that says a fake can't surpass the real thing.

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    Wants It More Quick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alison (#24)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#22)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alison (#20)
    Can you summarize the point of this article in one sentence?
    IDK why that would be more helpful than the cliff notes, but I can try.

    Something like this: Try and produce content that makes Town think better about the game either by the state of the thread or the stage of the game.
    Why would you intentionally shoot for low content early game then?
    I thought I explained this? I guess I didn't do a good enough job.

    Maybe I wasn't clear how, in some sense, pointless Very Low Content posts are generally. The whole article is about getting the most out of Town. Matching your content to the game stage can be part of that. I maybe didn't focus on this enough, but I was really trying to hit the psychological impact different content has on the rest of Town. In very early stages of the game, I make the argument that you can actually get out of RVS faster by taking the game seriously in terms of providing something that forces Town to actually think about the game more critically. Providing serious reads when everyone is joking around is a way to do that. Granted it only works if it looks like you are trying to take the game more seriously when you shouldn't be. It might draw suspicion initially, but I say that if you explain what you were trying to do, then you probably won't get Elimmed for it. Plus, in the early stages of the game, It's hard to make a Medium Content post because there's not really anything to analyze. It's hard to make a Low Content post because hardly anything has happened.
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

  26. ISO #26
    Thread Analyst Lissa2's Avatar
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    Interesting thoughts. Thx for putting them out here

  27. ISO #27
    Soul Reader Alison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#25)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alison (#24)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#22)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alison (#20)
    Can you summarize the point of this article in one sentence?
    IDK why that would be more helpful than the cliff notes, but I can try.

    Something like this: Try and produce content that makes Town think better about the game either by the state of the thread or the stage of the game.
    Why would you intentionally shoot for low content early game then?
    I thought I explained this? I guess I didn't do a good enough job.

    Maybe I wasn't clear how, in some sense, pointless Very Low Content posts are generally. The whole article is about getting the most out of Town. Matching your content to the game stage can be part of that. I maybe didn't focus on this enough, but I was really trying to hit the psychological impact different content has on the rest of Town. In very early stages of the game, I make the argument that you can actually get out of RVS faster by taking the game seriously in terms of providing something that forces Town to actually think about the game more critically. Providing serious reads when everyone is joking around is a way to do that. Granted it only works if it looks like you are trying to take the game more seriously when you shouldn't be. It might draw suspicion initially, but I say that if you explain what you were trying to do, then you probably won't get Elimmed for it. Plus, in the early stages of the game, It's hard to make a Medium Content post because there's not really anything to analyze. It's hard to make a Low Content post because hardly anything has happened.
    I have no idea what this means.
    There's nothing that says a fake can't surpass the real thing.

  28. ISO #28
    Wants It More Quick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa2 (#26)
    Interesting thoughts. Thx for putting them out here
    Your welcome!
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

  29. ISO #29
    Wants It More Quick's Avatar
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    I'm interested in what other "good" players have to say about my article. I'll leave that up to you if you think you are "good" at this game or not.

    I know I had my disagreement with Makaze (who I would say knows Mafia theory well), and I don't expect universal acceptance, but just looking for more honest opinions really.
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

  30. ISO #30
    The way I view content is so radically different that I don't really know how to interact with your definitions of it.

    My idea of good content is that everything presented as fact is actually accurate, that the facts presented are complete, and that the post is drawing attention to something which is reasonably likely to aid in solving someone's role. An explanation of why the stuff is likely to be important is beneficial but not always needed.

    Bad content is stuff that wastes people's time because it has factual errors, it misrepresents or overlooks context, it's moot for whatever reason, or it's focusing on something which isn't important.

  31. ISO #31
    Wants It More Quick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#30)
    The way I view content is so radically different that I don't really know how to interact with your definitions of it.

    My idea of good content is that everything presented as fact is actually accurate, that the facts presented are complete, and that the post is drawing attention to something which is reasonably likely to aid in solving someone's role. An explanation of why the stuff is likely to be important is beneficial but not always needed.

    Bad content is stuff that wastes people's time because it has factual errors, it misrepresents or overlooks context, it's moot for whatever reason, or it's focusing on something which isn't important.
    I see what you are saying, honestly. Personally, I think better (TM) posts come with more analysis as to the why's and how's of said read. Some players are really good and they just give Very Low Content posts. "Thingyman is Scum," for example, can be powerful if it's said by the right person. Clearly, there is more work to be done on this topic. Yes, for sure! Factual information is very valuable! In fact, because I listed that sort of thing as "Low Content" doesn't really mean it is "bad" content, just, when you examine the explanatory power of a post, that's generally where I like to see reasons for things. Deductive reasons are better, obviously, but sometimes "hot takes" or some such can be beneficial for Town to solve the game based on the psychological impact it has on players.

    But all that said, I see what you are saying. From a Towns perspective, your reads are obviously "better" if they are accurate. But one persons reads don't necessarily need to be accurate for their posts to be an overall value to Town. There was an article a while ago about something like this (it might have been you I was talking to about it). It is basically that the way I see the game is fundamentally different to the way you see the game, I think. I see everything has having a psychological impact on Town. IIRC, you think correctness is more important (in terms of net gain) than anything that could be incorrect.

    IDK, this is just the way I see it. That's mostly what I am left with when I consider what you have said. Perhaps you can write an article about something like this. I say something like this and not just your interpretation of content because I do think there's an article out there on being "accurate" with things. I think there was an article on Skill based on something like this. Personally, I just don't view content in a binary way like that article seemed to suggest. Who's right and who is wrong? It seems to be a matter of perspective.
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

  32. ISO #32
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#29)
    I'm interested in what other "good" players have to say about my article. I'll leave that up to you if you think you are "good" at this game or not.

    I know I had my disagreement with Makaze (who I would say knows Mafia theory well), and I don't expect universal acceptance, but just looking for more honest opinions really.
    Last edited by Makaze; September 14th, 2021 at 02:41 PM.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: remember that we are marking down all of your reads to hold for our personal amusement
    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#4807)
    i'm about to make makaze's pronouns was/were

  33. ISO #33
    that's hilarious lmao

  34. ISO #34
    Wants It More Quick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#32)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick (#29)
    I'm interested in what other "good" players have to say about my article. I'll leave that up to you if you think you are "good" at this game or not.

    I know I had my disagreement with Makaze (who I would say knows Mafia theory well), and I don't expect universal acceptance, but just looking for more honest opinions really.
    I don't get it.
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

  35. ISO #35
    Wants It More Quick's Avatar
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    Okay, I get it. Actually I use quotations for different reasons.

    Sometimes I use them for emphasis and sometimes I use them to mean how things are generally understood but it might not paint a full picture (like Makaze's joke).
    I ride the wave of the matrix, longing for the solution. Yet it slips into the void.
    I'm left asking, what has become of the system? The one cherished, so prized, but with its blemishes
    Then the undertow takes hold of me and I am adrift in the algorithm once again

    But on the other side, I will rise.

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