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Thread: Labelization

  1. ISO #1
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Labelization

    I want to recommend the moderation team to try better in not labeling people in moderation log. There's no need for that as cases can be easily rephrased in a way that is not potentially upsetting or openly toxic - the very things you're trying to avoid. You don't know how it affects people, so just take the safe route.

    Thankfully it's not common though.
    Last edited by Makaze; September 23rd, 2021 at 11:20 AM.

  2. ISO #2
    Soul Reader Syn's Avatar
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    Do you have an example?

  3. ISO #3
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn (#2)
    Do you have an example?
    Almost first 3 full pages are good. #87 in particular is exemplary that fills my heart with warmth with how well something so extreme was handled.
    #146 is where it first gets questionable for me.
    But from there on out, putting labels next to people's names seem to have become the norm: #148, #157, #180, #185, #195, #200,
    Now, they might be correct, idk, but such labels weren't needed before? In my mind, they bring nothing but negativity.

    If labels are necessary, I want to implore to at least consider not using malign sounding adjectives such as "blatant" or "open", and to replace the seemingly now common label "bigotry" with the specific type of it in question.

  4. ISO #4
    Soul Reader Syn's Avatar
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    The only functional difference I see between your approved and disapproved posts is that the former are more verbose and go into greater detail.

    How would you describe banning someone for making bigoted remarks without the use of "bigoted" and isn't just throwing in synonyms? Is there really a gain in softening the language when people are banned for extreme behaviour? What good do you see in having lengthier explanations for bans (e.g., your exemplary example specifically cites white supremacist views, but your first problematic example cites the same thing)?

    You also take on a bit of a contradictory slant there where you have an issue with "bigoted" because of its apparent negativity, but then saying you want specifics. Is racist, sexist, transphobic, etc., softer in your eyes? They aren't in mine.

    I guess I'm uncertain what you're actually looking for here. If someone was banned for specific behaviour, you can't omit that terminology. "User was banned for oopsie views on certain demographics" is unnecessary sanitizing.

  5. ISO #5
    weh SmartBomb's Avatar
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    Oh, right, I don't have to sanitize my own inputs cause I'm not staff.

    Why are you suggesting to treat bigotry - that involve a permanent ban in a significant amount of cases - with kid gloves?

  6. ISO #6
    Wants It More Adam's Avatar
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    if you're upset by that, good. congrats, you're the audience the "toxicity" is meant to apply to - your kind's not welcome here. getting a post in before thread closure

  7. ISO #7
    Wants It More jumpluff's Avatar
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    Cool

    If you ban someone for bigoted behaviour - which is openly toxic and upsetting behaviour, to use your words - then it's only intellectually honest to say they were banned for bigoted behaviour. Coddling bigots perpetuates bigotry and signals to the targets of the bigoted behaviour that they are unwelcome and unsafe.

    I don't see how you could consider the Naana post any better unless you think that the banned users deserve some sort of free trial by replicating their statements so that people can judge for themselves whether they care, which would be replicating the very thing the staff are trying to avoid: bigotry. Although I would personally be more humiliated to have my name tied to statements that I supported Hitler and the other terrible things in the post than 'open racism', so maybe the mods should actually just go back to the old system.

    Lying about the reasons the mods banned them by downplaying it does nothing but provide security and plausible deniability to users who harmed the community in the first place, and who were likely given too many chances to do it by the mods anyway.
    Last edited by jumpluff; September 19th, 2021 at 06:22 AM.

  8. ISO #8
    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#3)
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn (#2)
    Do you have an example?
    Almost first 3 full pages are good. #87 in particular is exemplary that fills my heart with warmth with how well something so extreme was handled.
    #146 is where it first gets questionable for me.
    But from there on out, putting labels next to people's names seem to have become the norm: #148, #157, #180, #185, #195, #200,
    Now, they might be correct, idk, but such labels weren't needed before? In my mind, they bring nothing but negativity.

    If labels are necessary, I want to implore to at least consider not using malign sounding adjectives such as "blatant" or "open", and to replace the seemingly now common label "bigotry" with the specific type of it in question.
    There's no reason to sugar coat it, really. Naana was a bigot, white supremacists are by nature. They just explained it in more detail, that's it, the accusation is no different really. Many of the first 3 pages are game integrity issues or the like, so naturally you won't see that specific problem pointed out. Other 'code of conduct' violations are unclear if they're the same type. For all you know you're mainly comparing apples to oranges.

    But regardless, I think this is much better than just calling things 'code of conduct' violations anyways, it helps the community know what the issue was and that such things are frowned upon. It's a helpful boost to morale, imo, to know that sexism, racism, transphobia, and bigotry in general are handled seriously and shut down. They don't simply bring negativity, they say that the mod team will take a stance against these people and their very negative bigoted behaviors. Perhaps you don't particularly care, but others do.

    The adjectives may simply be correct when people display such things blatantly or openly. Why on earth would you coddle people displaying such behaviors? They don't need coddling they need a wake up call that people see what they're doing and will not accept it. I can assume the more general label is used when multiple types are involved.
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  9. ISO #9
    あんた ばか Ampharos's Avatar Administrator
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    The words you seem to take issue with are used as shorthand descriptors for behavior, not for people. With that in mind, I see no need for us to modify our descriptions of said behavior, as we're simply accurately reporting the rules violations that led to a user being banned from the site.

    If you feel we should strive for increased specificity in the moderation log, that's a conversation we can have, but I'm not sure it's the one you're trying to start here.
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  10. ISO #10
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#9)
    The words you seem to take issue with are used as shorthand descriptors for behavior, not for people. With that in mind, I see no need for us to modify our descriptions of said behavior, as we're simply accurately reporting the rules violations that led to a user being banned from the site.
    #108 and #200 both report the rule violations on same extent, except one has a undermining/defaming undertone to it. I much rather prefer the one over the other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#9)
    If you feel we should strive for increased specificity in the moderation log, that's a conversation we can have, but I'm not sure it's the one you're trying to start here.
    I do for one thing tbh:
    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#3)
    replace the seemingly now common label "bigotry" with the specific type of it in question.


    Edit: btw, has the quote break button been removed?
    Last edited by mansnicks; September 20th, 2021 at 11:06 PM.

  11. ISO #11
    Soul Reader Syn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#10)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#9)
    The words you seem to take issue with are used as shorthand descriptors for behavior, not for people. With that in mind, I see no need for us to modify our descriptions of said behavior, as we're simply accurately reporting the rules violations that led to a user being banned from the site.
    #108 and #200 both report the rule violations on same extent, except one has a undermining/defaming undertone to it. I much rather prefer the one over the other.
    the easiest way to avoid this "defamation" is to not exhibit -ist behaviour

  12. ISO #12
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn (#11)
    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#10)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#9)
    The words you seem to take issue with are used as shorthand descriptors for behavior, not for people. With that in mind, I see no need for us to modify our descriptions of said behavior, as we're simply accurately reporting the rules violations that led to a user being banned from the site.
    #108 and #200 both report the rule violations on same extent, except one has a undermining/defaming undertone to it. I much rather prefer the one over the other.
    the easiest way to avoid this "defamation" is to not exhibit -ist behaviour
    Without question.

  13. ISO #13
    alien shapeshifter Hally's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by mansnicks (#10)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#9)
    The words you seem to take issue with are used as shorthand descriptors for behavior, not for people. With that in mind, I see no need for us to modify our descriptions of said behavior, as we're simply accurately reporting the rules violations that led to a user being banned from the site.
    #108 and #200 both report the rule violations on same extent, except one has a undermining/defaming undertone to it. I much rather prefer the one over the other.
    sorry if i’m misunderstanding your point, but the only difference i see between the two posts you cite is one refers to the user’s posts as “blatant” while the other doesn’t

    i assume you didn’t see the posts in question but i can tell you that they were, in fact, blatantly sexist, so why should we not describe them as such? what’s to be gained from softening or sugarcoating things?

    you say describing the user’s posts as blatant sexism is defaming/undermining the user, but that’s not really us doing that

    we’re simply accurately describing the user’s behavior so i would argue it’s them who have defamed themselves by behaving in a way that reflects poorly on them, and the only way to avoid that is for them to not behave in that way
    Last edited by Hally; September 21st, 2021 at 12:11 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by litten
    hally you have a Wowee addicfion
    Quote Originally Posted by quas
    Name the wowee dog hally
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal (#15)
    hi im hally
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal (#26)
    im a big nerd something something gravity falls
    Quote Originally Posted by ran
    How To Tell If Your Hally Is An Alien Shapeshifter:
    - Apply moderate but steady pressure d1 and observe their reaction.
    - If your Hally is genuine, you will notice a distinct morphing of their facial features into an "anime" or "chibi" style resembling the kaomoji (〃>_<;〃), their arms will turn into fingerless drumsticks and begin rapidly vibrating up and down, and they will emit various phrases such as "no bulli!" and "give me space!" and "but why!"
    - On the other hand, if your Hally remains in a photorealistic human form and responds calmly with phrases like "That's unfortunate, but I hope we can work together!" and changes the subject, you have an alien shapeshifter on your hands and should quickly excuse yourself and break the glass on the nearest eod flamethrower.
    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#50)
    182. Bellossom



    Bellossom, Bubbles, and @Hally. doing a little flower dance. travel agent who doesn't work on commission. knows she's pretty but loves being reminded. tries to maintain a vegetable garden but isn't very good at it.

    A-Tier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn (#142)
    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#19)
    tfw i cant mindmeld with hally this game
    Quote Originally Posted by jump
    dear professor

    i need an extension on this assignment if thats ok thank you so much or i can send you what i have already idk

    kind regards
    hally
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#902)
    when i see hally in the playerlist of a non post cap game

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunbae (#442)
    I'm going to apologize for this one in advance but I hope you'll all humor me for a little while. This is a champs level game after all and I can't help but try and post in a way to properly honor the occasion. Who knows when I'll be back in this situation again.

    I don't think it's a secret for most of you that my track record in reading Hally has been rather … well … awful thus far in our games. I did have one specific game where I recognized Hally was a villager and confidently (and happily!) let the world know. They flipped wolf. After our Syndicate game together and then Anni (both of which saw me find Hally's eod wolfy and press there) I wanted to make a concentrated effort to finally read that slot correctly.

    I spent some time today combing through recent-ish games this year of Hally's. The wolf game on the Org website, the Vig game over on the Syndicate one, and all sorts of mashes/smaller games through MU as well. Rocks fall, Anni, Homestuck, CoV, etc. You get the picture. All in all there were 16 different games I pulled isos from. I then went and ran through the isos extracting all the day one posts from the first half of the day, labeled them as W or V, and ran them through a bit of a homemade database that would do a few different things for me. One of the things was to make a word cloud which would count the number of times each word was used in these isos and make the word larger the more frequently it was used. For example:





    Anyways, I separated the wolf isos from the villa isos and then removed things like articles (a, the, in, an, etc) as well as player names as those aren't really super relevant to our investigation and cross referenced them to see if anything word usage stood out as alignment indicative in the top 10 most common words. While there were small word choices favored it didn't seem super significant. What WAS significant were two other things:

    One: While specific word choices weren't very telling I did notice a definitely trend of elegance in the wolf isos. The words may change but the idea remained the same. In wolf ISOs Hally had a habit of using larger, more elegant words whereas in the villa ISOs Hally just talked more casually. I'll call these Posts Exceedingly Elegant as we continue.

    Two: Villager isos were much more full of observational posts rather than inquisitive ones. The wolf iso was full of open ended questions requesting elaboration. Not just directly to a specific player but also towards the thread at large asking if it saw what Hally was seeing. Meanwhile the villager iso was full of more pointed statement. It was telling the thread what Hally was seeing and making sure everyone understood. The village iso had a higher frequency – by a significant margin – of Posts Of Observation.


    Again, I really want to get this right so I didn't stop there. Science isn't science until you write it down after all. I went ahead and charted the percentage of posts as a villager and as a wolf for both posts containing an elegant word and posts making observations. It's a bit crude but here's the quick jot down I made to visualize it:





    So I wanted to see how this one was shaping up. Remember, these were all taken from the first half of day one isos which we've made it past here. I went ahead and ran through Hally's iso from this game, plotted the elegance and observational percentages on the chart, and ran the following equation to try and determine the exact percentage chance Hally has at being a wolf:

    (Posts Exceedingly Elegant as a wolf)(Posts Exceedingly Elegant here) + (Posts of Observation as a villager)(Posts of Observation here) = the mathematical chance of Hally being a villager here (do 1-this for wolf obv).

    Which looks something like this:


    (Posts Exceedingly Elegant as a wolf)(Posts Exceedingly Elegant here) + (Posts of Observation as a villager)(Posts of Observation here)

    Or written differently

    PEEPEE POOPOO

  14. ISO #14
    Thread Analyst mansnicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#13)
    sorry if i’m misunderstanding your point, but the only difference i see between the two posts you cite is one refers to the user’s posts as “blatant” while the other doesn’t
    We can agree to disagree, but I see these 2 as vastly tonally different. One is neutral, as should be, while the other is not. At least I see them different.
    Quote Originally Posted by dyachei (#108)
    for posting inappropriate and sexist comments.
    Quote Originally Posted by dyachei (#200)
    for blatant sexism


    At the end of the day, I seem to be the only one seeing a lack of tonal impartiality, or the only one thinking that's an issue. In light of that, feel free to close this thread tbh. It's been discussed and an overwhelming disagreement has been voiced on this.

    I will say though, that I changed my mind on labels being a problem since they represent the issue (not "bigotry" though, as that's vague). But tonal neutrality is something I'd hope to see though.

  15. ISO #15
    alien shapeshifter Hally's Avatar Moderator
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    alrighty, closing the thread
    Quote Originally Posted by litten
    hally you have a Wowee addicfion
    Quote Originally Posted by quas
    Name the wowee dog hally
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal (#15)
    hi im hally
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal (#26)
    im a big nerd something something gravity falls
    Quote Originally Posted by ran
    How To Tell If Your Hally Is An Alien Shapeshifter:
    - Apply moderate but steady pressure d1 and observe their reaction.
    - If your Hally is genuine, you will notice a distinct morphing of their facial features into an "anime" or "chibi" style resembling the kaomoji (〃>_<;〃), their arms will turn into fingerless drumsticks and begin rapidly vibrating up and down, and they will emit various phrases such as "no bulli!" and "give me space!" and "but why!"
    - On the other hand, if your Hally remains in a photorealistic human form and responds calmly with phrases like "That's unfortunate, but I hope we can work together!" and changes the subject, you have an alien shapeshifter on your hands and should quickly excuse yourself and break the glass on the nearest eod flamethrower.
    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#50)
    182. Bellossom



    Bellossom, Bubbles, and @Hally. doing a little flower dance. travel agent who doesn't work on commission. knows she's pretty but loves being reminded. tries to maintain a vegetable garden but isn't very good at it.

    A-Tier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn (#142)
    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#19)
    tfw i cant mindmeld with hally this game
    Quote Originally Posted by jump
    dear professor

    i need an extension on this assignment if thats ok thank you so much or i can send you what i have already idk

    kind regards
    hally
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#902)
    when i see hally in the playerlist of a non post cap game

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunbae (#442)
    I'm going to apologize for this one in advance but I hope you'll all humor me for a little while. This is a champs level game after all and I can't help but try and post in a way to properly honor the occasion. Who knows when I'll be back in this situation again.

    I don't think it's a secret for most of you that my track record in reading Hally has been rather … well … awful thus far in our games. I did have one specific game where I recognized Hally was a villager and confidently (and happily!) let the world know. They flipped wolf. After our Syndicate game together and then Anni (both of which saw me find Hally's eod wolfy and press there) I wanted to make a concentrated effort to finally read that slot correctly.

    I spent some time today combing through recent-ish games this year of Hally's. The wolf game on the Org website, the Vig game over on the Syndicate one, and all sorts of mashes/smaller games through MU as well. Rocks fall, Anni, Homestuck, CoV, etc. You get the picture. All in all there were 16 different games I pulled isos from. I then went and ran through the isos extracting all the day one posts from the first half of the day, labeled them as W or V, and ran them through a bit of a homemade database that would do a few different things for me. One of the things was to make a word cloud which would count the number of times each word was used in these isos and make the word larger the more frequently it was used. For example:





    Anyways, I separated the wolf isos from the villa isos and then removed things like articles (a, the, in, an, etc) as well as player names as those aren't really super relevant to our investigation and cross referenced them to see if anything word usage stood out as alignment indicative in the top 10 most common words. While there were small word choices favored it didn't seem super significant. What WAS significant were two other things:

    One: While specific word choices weren't very telling I did notice a definitely trend of elegance in the wolf isos. The words may change but the idea remained the same. In wolf ISOs Hally had a habit of using larger, more elegant words whereas in the villa ISOs Hally just talked more casually. I'll call these Posts Exceedingly Elegant as we continue.

    Two: Villager isos were much more full of observational posts rather than inquisitive ones. The wolf iso was full of open ended questions requesting elaboration. Not just directly to a specific player but also towards the thread at large asking if it saw what Hally was seeing. Meanwhile the villager iso was full of more pointed statement. It was telling the thread what Hally was seeing and making sure everyone understood. The village iso had a higher frequency – by a significant margin – of Posts Of Observation.


    Again, I really want to get this right so I didn't stop there. Science isn't science until you write it down after all. I went ahead and charted the percentage of posts as a villager and as a wolf for both posts containing an elegant word and posts making observations. It's a bit crude but here's the quick jot down I made to visualize it:





    So I wanted to see how this one was shaping up. Remember, these were all taken from the first half of day one isos which we've made it past here. I went ahead and ran through Hally's iso from this game, plotted the elegance and observational percentages on the chart, and ran the following equation to try and determine the exact percentage chance Hally has at being a wolf:

    (Posts Exceedingly Elegant as a wolf)(Posts Exceedingly Elegant here) + (Posts of Observation as a villager)(Posts of Observation here) = the mathematical chance of Hally being a villager here (do 1-this for wolf obv).

    Which looks something like this:


    (Posts Exceedingly Elegant as a wolf)(Posts Exceedingly Elegant here) + (Posts of Observation as a villager)(Posts of Observation here)

    Or written differently

    PEEPEE POOPOO

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