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Thread: Season 8, Finale! Secure Championship Procedure [The Mafia Championship]

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  1. ISO #3201
    Soul Reader Gorf's Avatar
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    Still haven’t done real digging into interactions, will be doing that tonight/tomorrow. But from what I’ve seen regarding soneji’s interactions with vandy:

    I get that he doesn’t have a lot going for him in terms of calling things out as wolfy from vandy, and then him just kind of being cool going with it, but I think it’s pretty similar to his treatment of billy in sf1: if billy flipped wolf on D1, he’d probably wind up pretty damn low on poe’s even though soneji was one of the big factors toward yeeting silver and making the wagons w/w. The inverse happened with oko, who would up getting yeeted D2.

    He didn’t do much in the way of garnering attention toward billy because he had established for himself certain priorities from Day start that he stuck to, which is what I’m seeing in his progression thus far.

  2. ISO #3202
    plinko boards and waterfalls vanity.'s Avatar Moderator
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    here's a prototype of where i currently stand:

    clears:
    vanessa
    jc

    obvious villagers:
    hornet
    alexa

    tinfoil territory but likely villagers, if there's a sheppard of this game it's in here:
    holyflare
    katze
    boq

    wouldn't kill right now but there might be exactly 1 wolf in here:
    gorf
    thunal
    pilica

    should be in the poe but i have reasons to think it might not be him:
    tsf

    immediate poe, think there's exactly 1 between these 2:
    soneji
    wiml

    still doing housework.

  3. ISO #3203
    Wants It More Holyflare's Avatar
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    hate u too

  4. ISO #3204
    GOAT Tier Thunal33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#3196)
    the main concern i have with Soneji lies in like the world of v!Thunal, because i don't think Soneji/Thunal are W/W, but Soneji's overall treatment of Vandy as i summed up -

    'P#696 outs a slight townlean on tone on Vandy, says certain posts are a good look for Vandy. P#859 hedges slightly on the Vandy read, but still calls it towny. P#1649 finds Thunal’s treatment of Vandy partnered in general, would move Thunal to a strong wolf read if Vandy flips wolf. P#1695 says the Vandy wagon is fine but votes elsewhere.'

    which is like, starts off defending Vandy but then kinda switches into an acceptance of Vandy being a wolf and immediately linking him with thunal and pushing thunal more. i guess i can sort of see it in 2 ways though like:
    1. if Soneji is a villager, it's him still wanting to push his 'pet wolf-read' as most people had Thunal as village yesterday, so going against the grain with an independent thought could be a + town point
    2. if Soneji is a wolf, he's realized Vandy is inevitably dying, realizes it's probably too late to push there much for cred, so sets up for the next day instead

    i'm not sure which option is more likely tbh, overnight i was thinking #2 but with his posting today i'm back to thinking it may just be #1, and in general i think Soneji is relatively unpaired with a good amount of POE'd players. i think if i were just reading Soneji based on his posting alone i'd call him a villager, but Vandy spew makes it hard to shake concerns

    also i feel like TSF is posting kinda how i do as wolf, but at the same time the posting isn't bad at all, like P#2986 i can see a decent amount of nuanced solving, i just feel like some of the bits of "i was expecting not to townread X, but i did after this" is the type of stuff i say very often as wolf because people tend to townread that sentiment
    I did think his #2986 was a little towny because he was somewhat believably clearing a viable push in Soneji and limiting his options when it seemed like he was going to wolfread Soneji because of how consistently he had him in his PoE but then him pivoting onto the dichotomy of "Boq/Thunal has to have at least one wolf" because it's the only way Vandy could have been saved looks bad in light of me thinking that's two villagers and setting up bad dichotomies is somewhat wolfy. I feel like his Pilica vote of "guess I'm doing this even though it's not super great" is again just not taking responsibility for his vote.

    ##Vote The Sun Fan

  5. ISO #3205
    plinko boards and waterfalls vanity.'s Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#3203)
    hate u too
    hey look, i have to cash in my postgame cred when it turns out you fooled us all and we're all idiots.

    but i do think the way you've approached this dayphase is incredibly villagery and unlike your wolfgames so good for you

    if i could be more confident you didn't have tmi on vandy then you'd be in the obvious villagers category, it's just i think alexa is more clear cut to me personally because i don't think she had tmi on vandy

  6. ISO #3206
    Automatic Game Mod Mafia Host's Avatar
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    Season 8 Finale! [The Mafia Championship] Day 2 Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    5 The Sun Fan Holyflare (66), alexa (53), JohnCarter (48), Wiml (33), Thunal33 (52)
    3 Thunal33 katze (49), Soneji (22), Boquise (51)
    2 Wiml vanity. (50), Pilica (30)
    1 Pilica The Sun Fan (60)
    2 Not voting Hornet (14), Gorf (63)

    View Vote History

    End day at majority is enabled. With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to reach majority.

    Day 2 ends at 6:00 PM EDT on Tuesday, October 12th, 2021. There are 1634076060000 remaining.

  7. ISO #3207
    Wants It More Holyflare's Avatar
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    Getting in a picture drawing mood

  8. ISO #3208
    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#3015)
    am i allowed to say that TSFs approach to today feels much townier than thunals
    @katze how so specifically?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCarter (#3020)
    p#3015 yes Katze.

    Golly, who would she even be compatible with though? I feel like if she's a wolf then someone is miscleared? Because it wouldn't be Boq, Gorf, Soneji, TSF; I don't think it's Pilica (TBC). Then there's myself and Vanity. You aren't really compatible with her. HF just isn't a wolf based on Vandy and literally everything. So... have I missed something?
    i think it's easier to say/figure out who people aren't compatible with than who they are
    for thunal, i specifically don't think she can ever be with soneji, she's clearly not with katze based on this start of day, if katze's a wolf she'd be deep enough she wouldn't need to come in and bus her partner, but outside of that realistically she could be paired with anyone else

    ehh okay maybe not boq, didn't notice he was voting her now and changed his read on her, just saw the vote, but why do you think she can't be with gorf/TSF/Pilica? @JohnCarter

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilica (#3044)
    Some thoughts, reading d1:
    P#50 Same thought Boq, you get a towny point

    P#63 Pings me TSF, I don’t trust this smh

    P#69 Yeah I don’t get why you and TSF are thinking Vandy is clearly town just from wanting bucket

    P#79 Looking at EoD1, TSF was Vandy your “let’s make it seem it’s another Levi I’m hard defending/town reading?”

    P#172 Towny with a grain of salt

    P#208 Yeah Boq is town

    P#259 Damn that pings. It’s basically copy paste of Vandy.

    P#277 @Wiml may you show us your research for Vandy? And out of curiosity I’d like to know your notes on me lol XD

    P#344 *looks at EoD* Well… my name was being thrown around but yes you were right I seemed like the easiest push. I recall Vanity saying that people shouldn’t listen to their trigger finger to vote me XD

    P#371 I wanna vote Wiml more and more ngl

    P#387 @Thunal33 how do you approach games without clears normally? Do you think relying on clears is the right way?

    P#388 No. Just. No.

    P#432 Thoughts on Vandy putting one of his buddies as only wolf read?

    P#444 towny points

    P#468 Towny for TSF

    P#474 Towny post go brrr

    P#479 Oh tell me, TSF, what would be outing for me? I’m curious what you think you picked up in SF3.

    P#496 Towny points for Holy

    P#545 you ain’t treating a partner like that. Towny Gorf

    P#629 @JohnCarter If I would’ve been wolf I would’ve given you this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoWxv2yZXLQ but since I’m town I guess https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShgdTo_cdC0 Survival of the Illest + (which was uploaded on my birthday yey!) would be most fitting. City’s on fiiiiiire~ City’s on fiiiiiire~ WITNESS! Survival of the Illest!

    P#687 Did you find me town yet? XD Or did you nullify it already?

    P#701 This is a ??? post like you weren’t in any danger lol

    P#796 Yeah Boq is town

    P#817 … another tell? Let’s see if you, Thunal, and TSF have the same on me

    P#879 Yeah… Wiml definitely gives me some SF3!Holy vibes for many reasons. If you’re actually town I’m sorry but just nah. I can’t see it.

    Offhand comment that I kinda like Hornets vibes

    P#957 Already knowing there’s a rescind but nah don’t like that. It’s a “lemme buy another day if it gets accepted” kinda claim

    P#959 People don’t trust themselves enough to solve without the bucket even thought bucket is exploitable but oh well. Still hate bucket.

    P#965 getting cold feet gotcha

    P#973 agreed, not w/w Gorf/Wiml

    P#1001 Boo. “I won’t force the bucket” Wiml said, pinging everyone to bucket. One PR claim at this point is not a reason to bucket. 2 prs claiming and one hiding would always be best because that way there’s doc cover (which Vanity talked about before) but it’s already done welp

    P#1053 Love your spite Boq XD

    P#1087 This aged well looking at the nk-

    P#1147 Katze town off of this Vandy post. Vandy didn’t expect Katze to rescind that’s clear from there.

    P#1157 tr for the wrong reasons, Thunal can be town

    P#1194 Lol alexa XD

    P#1199 wanna call this a bad look on Hornet if Vandy really is like me in terms of wolfing

    P#1240 Wiml/Soneji/Hornet is where I am pretty much set rn. If wrong on 2 of them probs expanding with TSF/alexa as it stands rn

    P#1241 I think it was me who said bucket will come even if I despise it

    P#1284 Can you elaborate on that Vanity?

    P#1389 Y’all.. I am town this game but I hate the reasons why I’m town read here. I got very busy. Idk I probs would’ve tried harder to post some more as wolf but I am not avoiding thread on purpose. I just had no $%#!ing time. Townread me for something else, will you? I prefer being mischoped over being tr just because I didn’t have time.

    Meh Hornets posts make me want to tr him but something’s keeping me from it

    P#1575 Towny points for Thunal

    P#1609 Nah Holy I checked how everyone else had so $%#!ing many posts compared to me. No low posters really except Soneji

    P#1644 I know I already called out the last part of this post at EoD but now more clearly: Sounds like TMI to me. Because at this point I was a $%#!ing null, nothing more, nothing less. So logically you can NEVER exclude any kind of pairing with me.

    P#1729 Getting more and more sure one of Wiml/Hornet at least has gotta be a buddy

    P#1866 I feel like you’ve never read a wolf game of mine saying that

    P#1878 I’m inclined to believe that all mentioned names are actually town

    P#1907 The bait vote is hesitantly taken

    P#1910 I think this is towny for Gorf because the threadstate def. is giving an option for TSF. So if TSF isn’t also mafia this is a good look. Whilst I’m being discussed I’m also seen as a reaction text option + going after low poster at this state is more harmful when they are town than someone who’s posted lots and was over and over again in a sus place.

    P#1935 yeah Vandy’s treatment of TSF is wtf.

    P#2140 @alexa can you elaborate why Hornet/Vandy are never w/w in your opinion?

    P#2386 Naww Vanity, why do you love my posts? I’m glad I can bring joy though.

    P#2387 The duality of men: “I love/hate posts” but another thing that made me feel Vandy is a me kinda wolf: Gave me the vibes I had with SJ in SF3

    P#2451 This combined with the self vote and everything is giving me SF3 flashbacks that I hate with a passion ngl. On that note: P#2486 I feel like TSF feels the same-

    P#2581 ftr I didn’t see anyone use the word toxic, seriously, I hope you’re getting your stuff together now Wiml because if not my vote will guaranteed stay on you.


    In conclusion:
    ##Vote Wiml


    Also the two songs as videos:


    @Pilica Vandy/Hornet are never W/W because of the heated exchange they got into, Vandy called Hornet as a potential wolf and Hornet's reaction was to get extremely emotional about it, his general response as well to Vandy calling his questions wolfy/pointless was a level of anger/frustration that i don't think is ever Hornet's response to a wolf partner

    i also felt like his EOD approach was distinctly lacking TMI, where he was getting really worried about the stagnant wagon and freaking out about potentially being wrong on Vandy

    also P#1878 i feel like that's kind of weak? i don't think it's impossible or even unlikely for Vandy to mention a scum partner there, also i'm considering a lot of stuff anti-spew after a certain point yesterday

  9. ISO #3209
    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    i'm not sure if i totally agree that Pilica wouldn't have hornet low as a wolf, i think she's been detached/absent from the thread enough that she may not have the awareness that he's not a feasible push, and w!her could easily see people are more pocketable to have them higher up, especially people she knows

    i don't have any major concerns with her catch-up posts other than like, none of it is stuff i think is impossible for her to write as a wolf, in general though i want to spend some time reviewing SF3 because i think solving pilica is pretty important, she'd probably be a ML wolves would want if she's town

    also i actually found the way she approached vandy yesterday, being like "threadstate feels like SF3/Vandy probably V" to ISOing him and coming out with a wolfread to be marginally better than what i've seen of her posts thus far today

    i'm not really interested in voting her today anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#3068)
    Probably think JC dies if TSF is mafia. Think of the three, JC was probably the least likely to be a save and TSF pretty resoundly wanted to shoot into least likely save over everyone last game. Obviously there could have been reads into specific roles but hey ho.

    i think this is a valid point if Vandy was RBer, but if not then to not make the same mistake, he just blocks vanity there IMO

  10. ISO #3210
    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#3071)
    Yeah, I don't like the thread direction tbh and think it should change. Please start looking not at teams and compatability but instead individual play. Sure, you can read into what they said to Vandy and whatever but I think you'll be far worse off doing that. Mafia got aboslutely smashed yesterday so there's a lot to read into motivations today. Not many mafia can pull off being super motivated after that and being in the bottom of the PoE.
    i don't completely agree because i think it's pretty evident that Vandy was bussed by at least one person, like he was a wagon well before EOD so i'd think scum, especially literally in the champs finale game, would've been prepared for that and not suddenly demotivated. i can see your point if it was like a last minute CFD but that really wasn't the case

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    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#3073)
    p#3071
    p#3072

    name a more iconic duo
    lmao

    that feels too obvious

  12. ISO #3212
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#3210)
    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#3071)
    Yeah, I don't like the thread direction tbh and think it should change. Please start looking not at teams and compatability but instead individual play. Sure, you can read into what they said to Vandy and whatever but I think you'll be far worse off doing that. Mafia got aboslutely smashed yesterday so there's a lot to read into motivations today. Not many mafia can pull off being super motivated after that and being in the bottom of the PoE.
    i don't completely agree because i think it's pretty evident that Vandy was bussed by at least one person, like he was a wagon well before EOD so i'd think scum, especially literally in the champs finale game, would've been prepared for that and not suddenly demotivated. i can see your point if it was like a last minute CFD but that really wasn't the case
    I think there was a very clear point where he was accepting his death tbh

    around the point where me and you were attempting to engage with him and it was like trying to punch a brick wall.

    at that point he clearly had lost his self preservation instinct and I think that strongly points towards him being a planned bus at that point in the game.

    I'll bring up that VC quickly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandyfan402 (#1991)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunal33 (#1986)
    I think it's a very real possiblity that Vandy isn't posting now so he cuts his losses and doesn't give more info on his flip which is why I switched.
    I’m not gonna waste my breath posting more content that’s not gonna save me and not gonna get read tomorrow
    this is the point where I can say he was in antispew with pretty high confidence but if you look at the post he's quoting it stretches back earlier than this most likely

  14. ISO #3214
    Automatic Game Mod Mafia Host's Avatar
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    Retrospective Day 1 Votecount as of Post #1991

    Post #1991 was originally posted at 4:25 PM EDT on Saturday, October 9th, 2021.

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    6 Vandyfan402 Holyflare (104), Hornet (74), alexa (163), Boquise (170), Gorf (135), Thunal33 (156)
    3 JohnCarter Wisdom (162), katze (162), Wiml (175)
    1 Gorf The Sun Fan (146)
    1 The Sun Fan Soneji (29)
    1 Boquise vanity. (170)
    1 Pilica JohnCarter (154)
    2 Not voting Pilica (6), Vandyfan402 (135)

    View Vote History

    Requested by Wiml.

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    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandyfan402 (#1625)
    Damn so many wolf reads. I suck at this game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandyfan402 (#1627)
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandyfan402 (#1625)
    Damn so many wolf reads. I suck at this game.
    I get the lack of towniness. I was way townier in SF2
    i was actually considering it anti-spew from like this point when i was doing spew analysis

    because the wagon never really got off him at this point and there was no real active attempt at a different wagon, the TSF wagon did emerge but i don't think that was ever really a thing

    i guess i'm slightly concerned because i came into this day with the mindset that vandy was bussed and now we have TSF sitting at a top wagon who clearly would not have bussed, but i also don't think he had to have been bussed by both partners so i'm kind of in a spot where i just want to vote someone who has the most wolf equity

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    actually he was ignoring my pings quite a few hours before EoD

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    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    i guess i can see in a vacuum what pilica is referring to with the treatment vandy gave hornet being partnery because vandy kinda brings him up out of nowhere and is the only one to focus on them, so i can see v!Pilica without meta on hornet having that specific thought, but it's really the reaction on Hornet's end that i find the most clearing

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    Wants It More Holyflare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#3215)
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandyfan402 (#1625)
    Damn so many wolf reads. I suck at this game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandyfan402 (#1627)
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandyfan402 (#1625)
    Damn so many wolf reads. I suck at this game.
    I get the lack of towniness. I was way townier in SF2
    i was actually considering it anti-spew from like this point when i was doing spew analysis

    because the wagon never really got off him at this point and there was no real active attempt at a different wagon, the TSF wagon did emerge but i don't think that was ever really a thing

    i guess i'm slightly concerned because i came into this day with the mindset that vandy was bussed and now we have TSF sitting at a top wagon who clearly would not have bussed, but i also don't think he had to have been bussed by both partners so i'm kind of in a spot where i just want to vote someone who has the most wolf equity
    wow you took like 2 posts to go from saying no to my post to now accepting it gj

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#3215)
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandyfan402 (#1625)
    Damn so many wolf reads. I suck at this game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandyfan402 (#1627)
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandyfan402 (#1625)
    Damn so many wolf reads. I suck at this game.
    I get the lack of towniness. I was way townier in SF2
    i was actually considering it anti-spew from like this point when i was doing spew analysis

    because the wagon never really got off him at this point and there was no real active attempt at a different wagon, the TSF wagon did emerge but i don't think that was ever really a thing

    i guess i'm slightly concerned because i came into this day with the mindset that vandy was bussed and now we have TSF sitting at a top wagon who clearly would not have bussed, but i also don't think he had to have been bussed by both partners so i'm kind of in a spot where i just want to vote someone who has the most wolf equity
    TSF wagon was briefly tied with vandy so it definitely could have been a thing

    but yeah I agree with that bottom paragraph. the way vandy was playing at EoD completely points towards him being bussed and I'm not convinced he's an experienced enough of a wolf to replicate that as a red herring.

    well actually tbh, let's say the vandy wagon was completely pure. I think he could have easily just gotten demoralised there and realised there's no way he survives because of the towns pushing him?

    don't have a solid conclusion but him accepting his death a long time before EoD is pretty apparent

    (also have a theory that he was ignoring interactions with the two of us on purpose to avoid spewing either of us town by our posting towards him which would make sense)

    (also people who have asked me questions they're getting answered but I'm doing vandy spew of my own to respond to JC so)

  20. ISO #3220
    Special Agent tbh Boquise's Avatar
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    oki i am home now tbh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soneji (#1695)
    Quick reading Vandy and my impression is mostly the same as I had just reading through the thread, tonally good with quick insights that fit how he seems to be forming his game view with TSF as his town anchor and JC as someone he doesn't trust/doesn't look to like being pocketed in general (didn't like Thunal's TR on him). His push on Hornet is one I could understand a townie death tunneling into given Hornet's style, though the way they overreacted with calling a Hornet post outing and Gorf's wolf salt point does lean the scales towards it being wolfy.

    SF1 succeeded primarily by pushing onto those with bad pushes, so Vandy should be a wagon though I would say that there is someone with worse pushes than his :

    ##Vote The Sun Fan
    during this moment, why doesnt vandy self-press?

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    Wants It More Holyflare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#3221)
    Quote Originally Posted by Soneji (#1695)
    Quick reading Vandy and my impression is mostly the same as I had just reading through the thread, tonally good with quick insights that fit how he seems to be forming his game view with TSF as his town anchor and JC as someone he doesn't trust/doesn't look to like being pocketed in general (didn't like Thunal's TR on him). His push on Hornet is one I could understand a townie death tunneling into given Hornet's style, though the way they overreacted with calling a Hornet post outing and Gorf's wolf salt point does lean the scales towards it being wolfy.

    SF1 succeeded primarily by pushing onto those with bad pushes, so Vandy should be a wagon though I would say that there is someone with worse pushes than his :

    ##Vote The Sun Fan
    during this moment, why doesnt vandy self-press?
    god I really disliked this post

  23. ISO #3223
    Special Agent tbh Boquise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#3222)
    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#3221)
    Quote Originally Posted by Soneji (#1695)
    Quick reading Vandy and my impression is mostly the same as I had just reading through the thread, tonally good with quick insights that fit how he seems to be forming his game view with TSF as his town anchor and JC as someone he doesn't trust/doesn't look to like being pocketed in general (didn't like Thunal's TR on him). His push on Hornet is one I could understand a townie death tunneling into given Hornet's style, though the way they overreacted with calling a Hornet post outing and Gorf's wolf salt point does lean the scales towards it being wolfy.

    SF1 succeeded primarily by pushing onto those with bad pushes, so Vandy should be a wagon though I would say that there is someone with worse pushes than his :

    ##Vote The Sun Fan
    during this moment, why doesnt vandy self-press?
    god I really disliked this post
    Why?

  24. ISO #3224
    plinko boards and waterfalls vanity.'s Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#3221)
    Quote Originally Posted by Soneji (#1695)
    Quick reading Vandy and my impression is mostly the same as I had just reading through the thread, tonally good with quick insights that fit how he seems to be forming his game view with TSF as his town anchor and JC as someone he doesn't trust/doesn't look to like being pocketed in general (didn't like Thunal's TR on him). His push on Hornet is one I could understand a townie death tunneling into given Hornet's style, though the way they overreacted with calling a Hornet post outing and Gorf's wolf salt point does lean the scales towards it being wolfy.

    SF1 succeeded primarily by pushing onto those with bad pushes, so Vandy should be a wagon though I would say that there is someone with worse pushes than his :

    ##Vote The Sun Fan
    during this moment, why doesnt vandy self-press?
    vandy already had greg as his top villager for pretty much the entire game, so i'm not sure if he would self-pres like that as a wolf in that specific indtance

    and if he disregards the wagon for times in which we ask things like "why doesn't vandy self-pres on greg, it makes us think that he could potentially be partnered to him.

    besides like. on the other hand, i think vandy knew he was dying yesterday anyways, so he probably knew it was futile to self-pres anyways, which in that case, the lack of self-pres isn't indicative of tsf's alignment

  25. ISO #3225
    Special Agent tbh Boquise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#3224)
    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#3221)
    Quote Originally Posted by Soneji (#1695)
    Quick reading Vandy and my impression is mostly the same as I had just reading through the thread, tonally good with quick insights that fit how he seems to be forming his game view with TSF as his town anchor and JC as someone he doesn't trust/doesn't look to like being pocketed in general (didn't like Thunal's TR on him). His push on Hornet is one I could understand a townie death tunneling into given Hornet's style, though the way they overreacted with calling a Hornet post outing and Gorf's wolf salt point does lean the scales towards it being wolfy.

    SF1 succeeded primarily by pushing onto those with bad pushes, so Vandy should be a wagon though I would say that there is someone with worse pushes than his :

    ##Vote The Sun Fan
    during this moment, why doesnt vandy self-press?
    vandy already had greg as his top villager for pretty much the entire game, so i'm not sure if he would self-pres like that as a wolf in that specific indtance

    and if he disregards the wagon for times in which we ask things like "why doesn't vandy self-pres on greg, it makes us think that he could potentially be partnered to him.

    besides like. on the other hand, i think vandy knew he was dying yesterday anyways, so he probably knew it was futile to self-pres anyways, which in that case, the lack of self-pres isn't indicative of tsf's alignment
    thats fair but i think both scum and town can go "well I know I am town so there is a higher % chance to yeet scum if I save my life". But I will look at the dynamics during the last hours tbh

  26. ISO #3226
    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#3720)
    so Hornet does buss, this is how Hornet treated a partner in our Shakespeare game:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#792)
    esooas posts are just... what

    like is it just me ir do they just feel like. really off? its like theyre all over the place
    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#956)
    creature light v for the asking about reads ig?

    udell i dont really want to yeet vut thats mostly bc i dont like esooa
    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#1172)
    getting wagoned when i was the wolf vig cw and esooa had that dirty vote on me
    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#2170)
    vote esooa please

    im more confident on esooa


    then his push on esooa is like very unwavering and confident in a TMI way, which i believe is very different from his treatment of Vandy this game. here there's a specific emotional reaction to Vandy's comment, and also the uncertainty/treatment of Vandy EOD and lack of TMI is even more clearing for Hornet imo

    Hornet's push on Esooa is like external, appealing to others - the stuff on Vandy is very internal which is the crux of the difference, like this is his reaction to Vandy calling something outing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#1329)
    like how the $%#! os it outting for me to not see something

    i loteralltgot pished for this exact bull$%#! in anni
    .WORD FOR WORD.

    literally hot udhed because oops! bad eyes didnt see a post!

    and oops! i ask questions to solve!
    then he continues to have Vandy as his confident suspicion, but the lack of TMI post is like:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#2278)
    im not sure how i feel abt stagnant wagon

    on one hand i hated vandys read on me bc i feel like its misrepping my iso + mrr, played against him in homestuck mash and kinda getting deja vu - plus other posts of his havent given a good impression outweighing my bad one

    on the other hand the stagnant wagon is making me nervous
    he's still really worrying about Vandy being V, vs. when he was bussing a partner, it's just like unwavering confidence on Esooa being a wolf

    @Pilica

  27. ISO #3227
    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    so Hornet does buss, this is how Hornet treated a partner in our Shakespeare game:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#792)
    esooas posts are just... what

    like is it just me ir do they just feel like. really off? its like theyre all over the place
    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#956)
    creature light v for the asking about reads ig?

    udell i dont really want to yeet vut thats mostly bc i dont like esooa
    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#1172)
    getting wagoned when i was the wolf vig cw and esooa had that dirty vote on me
    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#2170)
    vote esooa please

    im more confident on esooa


    then his push on esooa is like very unwavering and confident in a TMI way, which i believe is very different from his treatment of Vandy this game. here there's a specific emotional reaction to Vandy's comment, and also the uncertainty/treatment of Vandy EOD and lack of TMI is even more clearing for Hornet imo

    Hornet's push on Esooa is like external, appealing to others - the stuff on Vandy is very internal which is the crux of the difference, like this is his reaction to Vandy calling something outing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#1329)
    like how the $%#! os it outting for me to not see something

    i loteralltgot pished for this exact bull$%#! in anni
    .WORD FOR WORD.

    literally hot udhed because oops! bad eyes didnt see a post!

    and oops! i ask questions to solve!
    then he continues to have Vandy as his confident suspicion, but the lack of TMI post is like:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet (#2278)
    im not sure how i feel abt stagnant wagon

    on one hand i hated vandys read on me bc i feel like its misrepping my iso + mrr, played against him in homestuck mash and kinda getting deja vu - plus other posts of his havent given a good impression outweighing my bad one

    on the other hand the stagnant wagon is making me nervous
    he's still really worrying about Vandy being V, vs. when he was bussing a partner, it's just like unwavering confidence on Esooa being a wolf

    @Pilica


    EBWOP
    sorry i accidentally posted it in the shakespeare thread i had open first LMAOO

  28. ISO #3228
    Wants It More Holyflare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holyflare (#3222)
    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#3221)
    Quote Originally Posted by Soneji (#1695)
    Quick reading Vandy and my impression is mostly the same as I had just reading through the thread, tonally good with quick insights that fit how he seems to be forming his game view with TSF as his town anchor and JC as someone he doesn't trust/doesn't look to like being pocketed in general (didn't like Thunal's TR on him). His push on Hornet is one I could understand a townie death tunneling into given Hornet's style, though the way they overreacted with calling a Hornet post outing and Gorf's wolf salt point does lean the scales towards it being wolfy.

    SF1 succeeded primarily by pushing onto those with bad pushes, so Vandy should be a wagon though I would say that there is someone with worse pushes than his :

    ##Vote The Sun Fan
    during this moment, why doesnt vandy self-press?
    god I really disliked this post
    1) It's the complete antithesis to what my read of Vandy was. He was not tonally good with quick insights, in fact it was the opposite and I already pointed out how his "quick insights" differed from previous games (even if you don't look at the previous games all his insights were hedges, really pointless asides that did nothing or just popping in to comment and leave again).

    2) Vandy's push on Hornet is universally decreed to be the thing that got Vandy killed. Vandy's initial points on Hornet were completely fine to make imo, and Soneji would be fine to say that, but there's no nuance about Vandy's follow up here. Vandy's follow up is the thing people scum read him for. Soneji just says that Vandy just called Hornet for sure mafia (which apparently became a death tunnel) and then left it at that. Soneji completely leaves out that Vandy actually switched his Hornet read to a town read and then only ever brought Hornet back up again at EoD.

    3) Soneji only casually mentions the overreaction to Hornet's post and Gorf's salty post even though it's the most important points.

    4) This post itself pretty much says Vandy is town but also potentially mafia, says absolutely nothing about TSF other than his pushes are worse (fair tbh lol) and then votes Vandy's counter wagon like ???

    I don't think the scum reading points are bad, obviously I agree with them. I just think the initial premise is something I completely disagree with. I'm gonna look back at the ISO and see what Soneji said about Vandy/TSF tbh.

  29. ISO #3229
    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    i'm not sure how much i love the way Pilica's reading Boq, the "doesn't feel wolfy/feels like his town self" kinda reminds me of a read Pilica made in Naruto that Anne correctly called her scum for, because scum tend to overly use that type of read to clear people really quickly, like it's a bit lazy but ehh

  30. ISO #3230
    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorf (#3091)
    Your content is pathetically barebones at worst, strechable-to-find-a-real-read at best. But you’re gonna sling dirt at TSF specifically for it because he wolfed with you?
    i mean i didn't think that part was bad though because it was kinda similar to what was bothering me about you, i genuinely feel like it's easier to read people after wolfing with them because you can see how they work and where their head's at so that part didn't bother me

  31. ISO #3231
    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilica (#3102)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorf (#3094)
    Yes. Really. You came in at the final hour and your content is so easy to fake if you have tmi that your partner vandy is a sinking ship. I agree with the people who said your readslist is not good (I’ll have to read into your D1 analysis post to really run with this), but even so that was posted after TSF said this. What should TSF see in your D1 play that should lead him to having a stronger read, one way or the other?
    "Pilica comes in D1, first tries to push a narrative that Vandy is another Levi. Maybe in a try to make people afraid of yet another D1 chop that was fully agreed on by town. Seeing that this didn't do anything he decided to instead go the bussing route and came out with a maf read on the iso. After that she didn't do much anymore, just life timing and interacting not all to seriously while throwing more shade onto Vandy."

    Here. Simple. That's a better reasoning for wolf reading me than what TSF gives. Easily made a narrative using the fact I had like no context and therefore there wasn't much that I COULD do.
    pilica v

  32. ISO #3232
    Special Agent tbh Boquise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCarter (#3147)
    @Boquise yeah I read the interaction at the time, I don’t really have a problem with either of your takes. It does defer responsibility to me, you’re right. It is a logical path to follow me, yes. I wasn’t overtly aware he’d been previously town reading you, so I suppose that is area for concern.

    I didn’t comment on the interaction at the time because of the death tunnel comment. Tbh it has made me kinda sad that that’s how you view me. Your feeling is valid. It’s just, Every decision I’ve made on you was to not make it a $%#! time regardless of your alignment, particularly because I knew you’d been through $%#! experiences previously. That’s what I thought I was doing by, me (knowing I was going to claim PR) not burying you over minor reasons from SOD1 in finale. That’s what I thought I was doing by not voting you in a serious way once in this game. That’s what I thought I was doing by deferring any feelings I have to town reads other people had on you d1.

    Regardless of your alignment, I have had you in my POE all game. I am sorry about this regardless of your alignment, and you feeling that I’ve death tunnelled you is a valid feeling with that in mind.

    And I know that it gives the impression to people that I’m a brick wall when I express suspicion on them, so it’s me and not you.

    But it honestly does make me kind of sad because you’ve been the person I’ve actively tried to not be unenjoyable for the most and it’s apparently not worked given you think my stance has been a death tunnel. I’ve cared about every post everyone here has made including yours, so it kind of sucks I give the impression that isn’t the case.

    Anyway. I get the impression you’ll read this as a pocket or something finale related but it is something I strive to with so much effort every game and look for feedback on - light, anon or otherwise, and there’s room to grow I guess, for you and Alexa.

    Tl;dr I’m trying, I have been trying, I will try, I care, and I don’t just care because of finale, I’m sorry



    Do you find anything of TSF there to be pinging though? @JohnCarter

    I am sorry about that. I don't want you to be sad and I do believe you when you say that it was not your intention for this to happen. I also believe that you have really tried to be enjoyable and kind to me. I realise I am over-sensitive to it due to my past experiences (especially last season that was ruined because of it). I had to yet again embarrass myself by kicking and screaming like a whiny little kid to make people actually read my posts on this D1 and talk with me instead of talking about me. But now that has also become my persona in this game, and I hate that. My mind kinda just loops because I know exactly how the events play out. And that sucks and is on me.

    I wrote a bit more originally but I will leave that out for the sake of the game and return to it post game tbh.

    I accept your apology. It is cool tbh!

  33. ISO #3233
    Wants It More Holyflare's Avatar
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    JC just want you to know that you've come leaps and bounds from last year and although I still don't agree with some of your methods, you're doing a really good job of not blocking people out so gj.

  34. ISO #3234
    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCarter (#3108)
    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#2630)
    vandy spew stuff


    Some notes on how Vandy treats partners from Pokemon Mash/SF2 - generally will townread them if they’re being townread but not out of the blue - can sometimes specifically focus on them a fair but (such as with celtic in SF2), not a huge busser

    Hornet therefore comes off looking really good. HF is also just hard town for starting the initial push on Vandy anyway.

    P#148 feels like a decent-ish look for Wiml - Vandy is trying to discredit Wiml right away
    P#208 also feels unpartnered with Boq (in addition to how Boq acted in response)
    P#411 is kinda meh for TSF. I mentioned this before, but it’s like the type of TMI read that could make Vandy/TSF W/W, because Vandy is townreading me for voting TSF, even though realistically a vote shouldn’t say anything about my alignment without knowing TSF’s.
    P#449 is a decent look for TSF though, feels pockety
    P#1157 is kinda weird that Vandy specifically points out that Thunal’s read on him was weird when multiple people made the read that Vandy was towny for his approach to buckets, so a (-) point against Thunal, and P#1159 is kinda flailing his way out of it - then it’s weird Vandy still sticks Thunal top of reads in P#1240
    P#1161 is kind of iffy for Soneji, the read is kind of both specific and not thought-out, like I’m not really following the logic in it but it’s almost like he’s forcing himself to come to a conclusion (but notably, it’s definitely not Soneji/Wiml pair from this)
    P#1199 just straight up spewing Hornet town
    P#1240 Vandy builds worlds/accepts katze as a confirmed villager at this point which I think is a good look for katze
    P#1267 is probably enough to negate the earlier potential TMI bit between TSF/Vandy, because Vandy calls my progression on TSF good when i end up townreading TSF.
    P#1334 is interesting. First thought is just that it means there’s not scum there, but it also could be TMI so i guess it just winds into null. More posting this to see what other people think or if it could indicate anything.
    P#1501 could definitely be partnered with Soneji, the way he defends him here is kinda awkward
    P#1529 + for Hornet

    At this point i’d kinda regard Vandy as moving more into anti-spew and treat his posts less seriously.

    Looks good from Vandy spew: HF, Hornet, Wiml, katze(?), TSF(?)
    Looks worse from Vandy spew: Soneji, Thunal



    how people treated vandy

    How I’d expect wolves to treat Vandy: Kinda depends if Vandy is RBer or not, assuming now I would expect them to kind of go with thread temperature - which would mean switching/shifting into a bus when the thread temperature after vanity/Wisdom cleared themselves but townreading him early. If he’s RB i would expect more protection, but going to assume the former is the scenario.

    Hornet:
    P#1308 is really side-eyeing Vandy. P#1315 votes him. P#1316 emotional about it, feels like Vandy is ignoring his solving to nitpick and misrepresent him. P#1322 getting generally very frustrated over that, probes me P#1326 on what I think about Vandy misrepping him. P#1352 Vandy is his main confident scumspect. P#2278 expresses some concerns on stagnant wagon. P#2487 thinks Vandy is a wolf but EOD is making him nervous.

    Conclusion: Hornet pushed on Vandy from early after I pretty intense emotional exchange and still tried to engage with him and expressed doubt EOD in a way that showed a clear lack of TMI. Hornet is extremely unlikely to be partnered/to have bussed Vandy.

    HF:
    P#390 first vote on Vandy. P#496 explains Vandy read and how he finds Vandy different from quals. I give HF points for really shifting the momentum against Vandy. P#1151 wants Thunal to rethink her Vandy townread. P#1209 presents him with some really probing questions that look like he’s trying to engage/solve him. P#1229 moved Vandy above TSF and Wiml. P#1348 still dislikes Vandy’s this is outing comment however. P#1362 starts to go into some Vandy meta. P#1641 still trying to engage with Vandy. P#1820 still probing Vandy. P#2231 still finding Vandy’s reads wolfy.

    Conclusion: HF started the push against Vandy and still represented a very consistent desire to engage with Vandy, read was not stagnant at all, HF is very unlikely to have bussed Vandy.

    TSF:
    P#63 is almost positive Vandy is town. P#79 reiterates it, says he’s unlikely to change his Vandy read today. Continues to defend Vandy as the momentum shifts against him slightly, P#561. P#1058 is going to dive into Vandy’s SF game, and wants people to sheep his read on Vandy based on what he comes out with. P#1116 ends up saying he still thinks Vandy is town but is not as certain as he thought after reading Vandy’s semis game. (I think this in general is a very villagery approach to Vandy and looks like he’s actually trying to solve Vandy’s alignment). P#1139 still thinks Vandy’s town, isn’t going to change his mind. But P#1436 does call something about the way Vandy talks as slightly wolfy. P#1457 still has Vandy high in his reads however. P#1733 still strongly townreading Vandy. P#2587 “Vandy please be a villager.”

    Conclusion: TSF’s treatment of Vandy is decent. He pretty consistently has him as town, but seems to at least minorly re-val Vandy at some point. I think as a wolf he doesn’t really have a need to defend Vandy the way he did, but I wouldn’t completely outrule that he takes the approach to show internal consistently. Slightly unlikely to be paired with Vandy.

    Soneji:
    P#696 outs a slight townlean on tone on Vandy, says certain posts are a good look for Vandy. P#859 hedges slightly on the Vandy read, but still calls it towny. P#1649 finds Thunal’s treatment of Vandy partnered in general, would move Thunal to a strong wolf read if Vandy flips wolf. P#1695 says the Vandy wagon is fine but votes elsewhere.

    Conclusion: There’s nothing distinctly unpairing Vandy/Soneji, and even could argue if Thunal’s V, Soneji kind of sets up after realizing Vandy is dying that day.

    Katze:
    P#323 kind of aggressive with Vandy in immediate interaction. P#327 ends up outing a V read on Vandy. P#584, continues to say Vandy looks better than SF2. P#1061 has Vandy in list of village-leans. P#1084 hedges slightly on Vandy read but explains why she still likes him. P#1263 Katze expresses confusion on Vandy agreeing with Hornet’s take with JC. P#1378 Katze’s read on Vandy shifts pretty dramatically (there is some slight buildup i suppose but i would tinfoil this as being a potential ‘w/w where katze changed her read on Vandy once thread temperature shifted against him’). I do kinda stand by the sort of aggressive way katze’s treating Vandy as unpartnered outside of that and it’s why I’d marked it that way on my chart. P#1720 sticks up for Vandy wagon when it’s tied with TSF which I’d give slight town points to.
    P#2469 feels like Thunal could be a wolf TMIing Vandy/Hornet V/V - this is pretty good from katze as it distinctly lacks agenda.

    Conclusion: I would slightly tinfoil here as my original theory about how wolves would treat Vandy could apply to katze in the way she shifts her Vandy read when momentum turns against Vandy, but I think as a whole her treatment of Vandy is slightly unpartnered.

    Gorf:
    P#410 Gorf is null on Vandy right away and thinks the bucket stance is NAI. Consistently has Vandy low on reads’ list. P#545 similar take to me on Vandy not being villagery for bucket stance. P#1160 questions Vandy on why people townreading him over something NAI didn’t bother him earlier. P#1562 calls out some wolf saltyness from Vandy. P#1788 repeats a comment is a bad look for Vandy. P#2496 really thinks Vandy is a hit.

    Conclusion - I think Gorf is probably on the higher likelihood of being a buss candidate. He seems to not really waver on his Vandy read and doesn’t have many direct interactions with Vandy, but pushes it without expressing doubt even as others’ wavered EOD. I give him some points for having a similar early view to me on the bucket thing from Vandy not being towny, but there’s nothing really stopping this from being a buss.

    Wiml:
    P#40 “Vandy you’ve pocketed me again.” Awkward could be W/W. P#69 reiterates village read. P#260 compares Vandy to SF2 (as a townread). Continuing to want to look for something clearing for Vandy to towncase him. P#371 calls a post hard town for Vandy. P#388 repeats how towny Vandy has been. P#617 says Vandy doesn’t have a wolf motivation for pushing bucket but also mentions that he’s overwhelmed by Vandy’s other posting indicating the point in which his read trends down a bit. P#618 still townreads Vandy though due to his entrance - slight tinfoil of this being planned? P#622 still towncasing Vandy. P#876 takes Vandy out of top villagers but says he tentatively may be there. P#1644 trying to engage with Vandy, ‘doesn’t quite want to give up on finding him if he’s a villager.’ P#1724 wanting to flip this over TSF despite Wiml’s earlier read on Vandy is slight town points if TSF is V. P#1745 dislikes Vandy’s lack of response to his attempt to engage, follows up on the question. P#2116 still trying to engage with Vandy. P#2118 really wants Vandy to give him something to work with.

    Conclusion - Initial thought is that Wiml towncasing Vandy (especially after SF2) is very partnery behavior, however, I think the way Wiml’s read on Vandy progressed throughout the day in addition to the way Wiml was trying to engage with Vandy at EOD is less partnered. I think in all he’s unlikely to be with Vandy.

    Boq:
    If P#40 isn’t w/w, P#50 could potentially be Boq setting up on Wiml (don’t think this is ever W/W/W with Vandy/Boq/Wiml though)
    P#573 Boq townreads Vandy for shading him. P#703 reiterates it. P#1534 doesn’t think Vandy’s questioning of hornet is bad. P#1672 nothing strikingly scummy in Vandy ISO. P#1804 votes Vandy as he’s more likely to be able to solve TSF the next day.

    Conclusion - Nothing really stopping Boq from being W/W with Vandy. His treatment of Vandy is fine but nothing particularly clearing.

    Thunal:
    P#223 has Vandy slightly below null, considering it a “wait and see” read. In P#250 ends up feeling better about Vandy and TRing him. P#340 discussing how she approaches her Vandy notes with me and how he is as town/mafia early. P#817, still has Vandy at top of reads’ list. P#1107 still has Vandy as strongly town. P#1150 is still fairly confident Vandy is town. P#1184 mentions that she’s reading Vandy’s SF2 and agrees with TSF that it’s not the slamdunk she thought it was. P#1370 waffles on the Vandy V read, isn’t as comfortable with him but also feels like he’s an easy answer. P#1572 ends up shifting and voting Vandy. P#1394 wants Vandy over Pilica, P#1986 thinks it’s possible Vandy is a wolf for not posting.
    P#2053 is uhhh, kind of weird. Want to see how it manifests but I kinda feel like Thunal could be setting up to shade me when I was living in an exact world of Vandy W so feel like I’m obviously not partnered with him, plus in general it just looks like she’s setting up to say a lot of people look worse if Vandy is a wolf which feels like a potentially wolfy POE opening.

    Conclusion - In general I find Thunal’s treatment of Vandy iffy. She shifts momentum against Vandy right when thread state is moving against Vandy, and seems to set up a world where a lot of people look worse if Vandy flips wolf at EOD in a way that can be read as expanding the POE.

    Pilica:
    P#2132 feels like Vandy is just the designated elimination, continues to state threadstate feels like SF3 where they chopped a villager EOD.
    P#2355 ISOs Vandy, comes out with a wolfread and ends up supporting the wagon.


    Conclusion - Very very very minor not W/W points for Pilica’s treatment of Vandy EOD. I think the progression of “threadstate feels like SF3” to joining the Vandy wolf read feels natural/lacking agenda, but not enough to call it particularly clearing.


    Looks Best:
    HolyFlare
    Hornet

    Looks Decent:
    Wiml
    TSF
    Katze

    Looks the Same:
    Boquise
    Pilica

    Looks Worse:
    Thunal
    Soneji
    Gorf
    Finally got through everyone’s SOD work, many many hours later.

    @alexa boss, your notes on p#1161 and p#1501 are good spicy. For a wolf that TMI’d his partners last game, I feasibly would see him finding difficult to enunciate why someone he knows is a wolf to be a villager, right (fact check me on that thought)? Assuming that premise is correct…

    Cross check with my work p#2985. Where he slips that pair down. Just that once.

    I feel like this is big?
    @JohnCarter i think your P#2985 is a really good catch. the P#1632 in particular is odd based on where he'd consistently placed the two on his reads' lists

    my view of how Vandy treats partners as well kind of depends on thread state, like i looked for places where he specifically brings attention to someone in an odd context (like with celtic) - Vandy did shade Psycho from early on, maybe even before he was forced to though, so it's something to keep in mind and may mean his initial comment is not as clearing for Boq

    for reference:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandyfan402 (#725)
    I’m just on a 10 at work, but reading through, I must say, I’ve never seen more people blindly sheep a PRs townread on a player like they have with Psycho.

  35. ISO #3235
    Special Agent tbh Boquise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#3229)
    i'm not sure how much i love the way Pilica's reading Boq, the "doesn't feel wolfy/feels like his town self" kinda reminds me of a read Pilica made in Naruto that Anne correctly called her scum for, because scum tend to overly use that type of read to clear people really quickly, like it's a bit lazy but ehh
    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#3231)
    Quote Originally Posted by Pilica (#3102)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorf (#3094)
    Yes. Really. You came in at the final hour and your content is so easy to fake if you have tmi that your partner vandy is a sinking ship. I agree with the people who said your readslist is not good (I’ll have to read into your D1 analysis post to really run with this), but even so that was posted after TSF said this. What should TSF see in your D1 play that should lead him to having a stronger read, one way or the other?
    "Pilica comes in D1, first tries to push a narrative that Vandy is another Levi. Maybe in a try to make people afraid of yet another D1 chop that was fully agreed on by town. Seeing that this didn't do anything he decided to instead go the bussing route and came out with a maf read on the iso. After that she didn't do much anymore, just life timing and interacting not all to seriously while throwing more shade onto Vandy."

    Here. Simple. That's a better reasoning for wolf reading me than what TSF gives. Easily made a narrative using the fact I had like no context and therefore there wasn't much that I COULD do.
    pilica v

  36. ISO #3236
    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilica (#3110)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorf (#3107)
    Quote Originally Posted by Pilica (#3102)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorf (#3094)
    Yes. Really. You came in at the final hour and your content is so easy to fake if you have tmi that your partner vandy is a sinking ship. I agree with the people who said your readslist is not good (I’ll have to read into your D1 analysis post to really run with this), but even so that was posted after TSF said this. What should TSF see in your D1 play that should lead him to having a stronger read, one way or the other?
    "Pilica comes in D1, first tries to push a narrative that Vandy is another Levi. Maybe in a try to make people afraid of yet another D1 chop that was fully agreed on by town. Seeing that this didn't do anything he decided to instead go the bussing route and came out with a maf read on the iso. After that she didn't do much anymore, just life timing and interacting not all to seriously while throwing more shade onto Vandy."

    Here. Simple. That's a better reasoning for wolf reading me than what TSF gives. Easily made a narrative using the fact I had like no context and therefore there wasn't much that I COULD do.
    Honestly I think I might wolfread something like that coming from TSF more than the nothing he said. Why is what he presented wolfy?
    But that would be more accurate, lol. I have like 0 pride in my town game even though I'm trying now. I actually felt insulted when alexa said that my solving I did EoD1 is better than my wolf solving. I know I post wolfy. I know I always have countless of things as town that make me an easy mislim which is why I am basically always mislimed when I'm town. It is one of the easiest things to paint me as wolf even with what little you guys had before. TSF knows my wolf game. I literally told him last game that I wouldn't try saving a sinking ship. He could literally go there and quote our exchange and put it as a reason but he doesn't. It just doesn't sit well with me and rn he's dwindling down the more I read. Because in the very SAME exchange he claimed that he thinks everyone is saveable which he tried with me in SF3. This EoD I had the feeling he was holding back and something tells me that is exactly why. I lowkey would love us 3 SF3 wolves to be all town now and working together from the other side of the coin but he's making it hard. It's just the easiest way out. "She has to be there." Are you seriously telling me that is towny from him?
    @Pilica i don't mean to insult your wolf game in any way, obviously it's why you're here, but you mentioned yourself coming into the game that you actually need to sit down and think about things since you're a villager and you don't do that as wolf, and i'm kind of a sucker for self meta (i at least think you don't have a reason to lie about that regardless of your alignment) so i was looking specifically for depth of thought

  37. ISO #3237
    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boquise (#3235)
    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#3229)
    i'm not sure how much i love the way Pilica's reading Boq, the "doesn't feel wolfy/feels like his town self" kinda reminds me of a read Pilica made in Naruto that Anne correctly called her scum for, because scum tend to overly use that type of read to clear people really quickly, like it's a bit lazy but ehh
    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#3231)
    Quote Originally Posted by Pilica (#3102)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorf (#3094)
    Yes. Really. You came in at the final hour and your content is so easy to fake if you have tmi that your partner vandy is a sinking ship. I agree with the people who said your readslist is not good (I’ll have to read into your D1 analysis post to really run with this), but even so that was posted after TSF said this. What should TSF see in your D1 play that should lead him to having a stronger read, one way or the other?
    "Pilica comes in D1, first tries to push a narrative that Vandy is another Levi. Maybe in a try to make people afraid of yet another D1 chop that was fully agreed on by town. Seeing that this didn't do anything he decided to instead go the bussing route and came out with a maf read on the iso. After that she didn't do much anymore, just life timing and interacting not all to seriously while throwing more shade onto Vandy."

    Here. Simple. That's a better reasoning for wolf reading me than what TSF gives. Easily made a narrative using the fact I had like no context and therefore there wasn't much that I COULD do.
    pilica v
    lmao

    reads are hard

  38. ISO #3238
    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    actually though i really think Pilica's posting on pg. 63 is the most villagery from her, i can now see why she's trended up for people which i wasn't getting with her initial wall

  39. ISO #3239
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCarter (#3113)
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCarter (#3108)
    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#2630)
    vandy spew stuff


    Some notes on how Vandy treats partners from Pokemon Mash/SF2 - generally will townread them if they’re being townread but not out of the blue - can sometimes specifically focus on them a fair but (such as with celtic in SF2), not a huge busser

    Hornet therefore comes off looking really good. HF is also just hard town for starting the initial push on Vandy anyway.

    P#148 feels like a decent-ish look for Wiml - Vandy is trying to discredit Wiml right away
    P#208 also feels unpartnered with Boq (in addition to how Boq acted in response)
    P#411 is kinda meh for TSF. I mentioned this before, but it’s like the type of TMI read that could make Vandy/TSF W/W, because Vandy is townreading me for voting TSF, even though realistically a vote shouldn’t say anything about my alignment without knowing TSF’s.
    P#449 is a decent look for TSF though, feels pockety
    P#1157 is kinda weird that Vandy specifically points out that Thunal’s read on him was weird when multiple people made the read that Vandy was towny for his approach to buckets, so a (-) point against Thunal, and P#1159 is kinda flailing his way out of it - then it’s weird Vandy still sticks Thunal top of reads in P#1240
    P#1161 is kind of iffy for Soneji, the read is kind of both specific and not thought-out, like I’m not really following the logic in it but it’s almost like he’s forcing himself to come to a conclusion (but notably, it’s definitely not Soneji/Wiml pair from this)
    P#1199 just straight up spewing Hornet town
    P#1240 Vandy builds worlds/accepts katze as a confirmed villager at this point which I think is a good look for katze
    P#1267 is probably enough to negate the earlier potential TMI bit between TSF/Vandy, because Vandy calls my progression on TSF good when i end up townreading TSF.
    P#1334 is interesting. First thought is just that it means there’s not scum there, but it also could be TMI so i guess it just winds into null. More posting this to see what other people think or if it could indicate anything.
    P#1501 could definitely be partnered with Soneji, the way he defends him here is kinda awkward
    P#1529 + for Hornet

    At this point i’d kinda regard Vandy as moving more into anti-spew and treat his posts less seriously.

    Looks good from Vandy spew: HF, Hornet, Wiml, katze(?), TSF(?)
    Looks worse from Vandy spew: Soneji, Thunal



    how people treated vandy

    How I’d expect wolves to treat Vandy: Kinda depends if Vandy is RBer or not, assuming now I would expect them to kind of go with thread temperature - which would mean switching/shifting into a bus when the thread temperature after vanity/Wisdom cleared themselves but townreading him early. If he’s RB i would expect more protection, but going to assume the former is the scenario.

    Hornet:
    P#1308 is really side-eyeing Vandy. P#1315 votes him. P#1316 emotional about it, feels like Vandy is ignoring his solving to nitpick and misrepresent him. P#1322 getting generally very frustrated over that, probes me P#1326 on what I think about Vandy misrepping him. P#1352 Vandy is his main confident scumspect. P#2278 expresses some concerns on stagnant wagon. P#2487 thinks Vandy is a wolf but EOD is making him nervous.

    Conclusion: Hornet pushed on Vandy from early after I pretty intense emotional exchange and still tried to engage with him and expressed doubt EOD in a way that showed a clear lack of TMI. Hornet is extremely unlikely to be partnered/to have bussed Vandy.

    HF:
    P#390 first vote on Vandy. P#496 explains Vandy read and how he finds Vandy different from quals. I give HF points for really shifting the momentum against Vandy. P#1151 wants Thunal to rethink her Vandy townread. P#1209 presents him with some really probing questions that look like he’s trying to engage/solve him. P#1229 moved Vandy above TSF and Wiml. P#1348 still dislikes Vandy’s this is outing comment however. P#1362 starts to go into some Vandy meta. P#1641 still trying to engage with Vandy. P#1820 still probing Vandy. P#2231 still finding Vandy’s reads wolfy.

    Conclusion: HF started the push against Vandy and still represented a very consistent desire to engage with Vandy, read was not stagnant at all, HF is very unlikely to have bussed Vandy.

    TSF:
    P#63 is almost positive Vandy is town. P#79 reiterates it, says he’s unlikely to change his Vandy read today. Continues to defend Vandy as the momentum shifts against him slightly, P#561. P#1058 is going to dive into Vandy’s SF game, and wants people to sheep his read on Vandy based on what he comes out with. P#1116 ends up saying he still thinks Vandy is town but is not as certain as he thought after reading Vandy’s semis game. (I think this in general is a very villagery approach to Vandy and looks like he’s actually trying to solve Vandy’s alignment). P#1139 still thinks Vandy’s town, isn’t going to change his mind. But P#1436 does call something about the way Vandy talks as slightly wolfy. P#1457 still has Vandy high in his reads however. P#1733 still strongly townreading Vandy. P#2587 “Vandy please be a villager.”

    Conclusion: TSF’s treatment of Vandy is decent. He pretty consistently has him as town, but seems to at least minorly re-val Vandy at some point. I think as a wolf he doesn’t really have a need to defend Vandy the way he did, but I wouldn’t completely outrule that he takes the approach to show internal consistently. Slightly unlikely to be paired with Vandy.

    Soneji:
    P#696 outs a slight townlean on tone on Vandy, says certain posts are a good look for Vandy. P#859 hedges slightly on the Vandy read, but still calls it towny. P#1649 finds Thunal’s treatment of Vandy partnered in general, would move Thunal to a strong wolf read if Vandy flips wolf. P#1695 says the Vandy wagon is fine but votes elsewhere.

    Conclusion: There’s nothing distinctly unpairing Vandy/Soneji, and even could argue if Thunal’s V, Soneji kind of sets up after realizing Vandy is dying that day.

    Katze:
    P#323 kind of aggressive with Vandy in immediate interaction. P#327 ends up outing a V read on Vandy. P#584, continues to say Vandy looks better than SF2. P#1061 has Vandy in list of village-leans. P#1084 hedges slightly on Vandy read but explains why she still likes him. P#1263 Katze expresses confusion on Vandy agreeing with Hornet’s take with JC. P#1378 Katze’s read on Vandy shifts pretty dramatically (there is some slight buildup i suppose but i would tinfoil this as being a potential ‘w/w where katze changed her read on Vandy once thread temperature shifted against him’). I do kinda stand by the sort of aggressive way katze’s treating Vandy as unpartnered outside of that and it’s why I’d marked it that way on my chart. P#1720 sticks up for Vandy wagon when it’s tied with TSF which I’d give slight town points to.
    P#2469 feels like Thunal could be a wolf TMIing Vandy/Hornet V/V - this is pretty good from katze as it distinctly lacks agenda.

    Conclusion: I would slightly tinfoil here as my original theory about how wolves would treat Vandy could apply to katze in the way she shifts her Vandy read when momentum turns against Vandy, but I think as a whole her treatment of Vandy is slightly unpartnered.

    Gorf:
    P#410 Gorf is null on Vandy right away and thinks the bucket stance is NAI. Consistently has Vandy low on reads’ list. P#545 similar take to me on Vandy not being villagery for bucket stance. P#1160 questions Vandy on why people townreading him over something NAI didn’t bother him earlier. P#1562 calls out some wolf saltyness from Vandy. P#1788 repeats a comment is a bad look for Vandy. P#2496 really thinks Vandy is a hit.

    Conclusion - I think Gorf is probably on the higher likelihood of being a buss candidate. He seems to not really waver on his Vandy read and doesn’t have many direct interactions with Vandy, but pushes it without expressing doubt even as others’ wavered EOD. I give him some points for having a similar early view to me on the bucket thing from Vandy not being towny, but there’s nothing really stopping this from being a buss.

    Wiml:
    P#40 “Vandy you’ve pocketed me again.” Awkward could be W/W. P#69 reiterates village read. P#260 compares Vandy to SF2 (as a townread). Continuing to want to look for something clearing for Vandy to towncase him. P#371 calls a post hard town for Vandy. P#388 repeats how towny Vandy has been. P#617 says Vandy doesn’t have a wolf motivation for pushing bucket but also mentions that he’s overwhelmed by Vandy’s other posting indicating the point in which his read trends down a bit. P#618 still townreads Vandy though due to his entrance - slight tinfoil of this being planned? P#622 still towncasing Vandy. P#876 takes Vandy out of top villagers but says he tentatively may be there. P#1644 trying to engage with Vandy, ‘doesn’t quite want to give up on finding him if he’s a villager.’ P#1724 wanting to flip this over TSF despite Wiml’s earlier read on Vandy is slight town points if TSF is V. P#1745 dislikes Vandy’s lack of response to his attempt to engage, follows up on the question. P#2116 still trying to engage with Vandy. P#2118 really wants Vandy to give him something to work with.

    Conclusion - Initial thought is that Wiml towncasing Vandy (especially after SF2) is very partnery behavior, however, I think the way Wiml’s read on Vandy progressed throughout the day in addition to the way Wiml was trying to engage with Vandy at EOD is less partnered. I think in all he’s unlikely to be with Vandy.

    Boq:
    If P#40 isn’t w/w, P#50 could potentially be Boq setting up on Wiml (don’t think this is ever W/W/W with Vandy/Boq/Wiml though)
    P#573 Boq townreads Vandy for shading him. P#703 reiterates it. P#1534 doesn’t think Vandy’s questioning of hornet is bad. P#1672 nothing strikingly scummy in Vandy ISO. P#1804 votes Vandy as he’s more likely to be able to solve TSF the next day.

    Conclusion - Nothing really stopping Boq from being W/W with Vandy. His treatment of Vandy is fine but nothing particularly clearing.

    Thunal:
    P#223 has Vandy slightly below null, considering it a “wait and see” read. In P#250 ends up feeling better about Vandy and TRing him. P#340 discussing how she approaches her Vandy notes with me and how he is as town/mafia early. P#817, still has Vandy at top of reads’ list. P#1107 still has Vandy as strongly town. P#1150 is still fairly confident Vandy is town. P#1184 mentions that she’s reading Vandy’s SF2 and agrees with TSF that it’s not the slamdunk she thought it was. P#1370 waffles on the Vandy V read, isn’t as comfortable with him but also feels like he’s an easy answer. P#1572 ends up shifting and voting Vandy. P#1394 wants Vandy over Pilica, P#1986 thinks it’s possible Vandy is a wolf for not posting.
    P#2053 is uhhh, kind of weird. Want to see how it manifests but I kinda feel like Thunal could be setting up to shade me when I was living in an exact world of Vandy W so feel like I’m obviously not partnered with him, plus in general it just looks like she’s setting up to say a lot of people look worse if Vandy is a wolf which feels like a potentially wolfy POE opening.

    Conclusion - In general I find Thunal’s treatment of Vandy iffy. She shifts momentum against Vandy right when thread state is moving against Vandy, and seems to set up a world where a lot of people look worse if Vandy flips wolf at EOD in a way that can be read as expanding the POE.

    Pilica:
    P#2132 feels like Vandy is just the designated elimination, continues to state threadstate feels like SF3 where they chopped a villager EOD.
    P#2355 ISOs Vandy, comes out with a wolfread and ends up supporting the wagon.


    Conclusion - Very very very minor not W/W points for Pilica’s treatment of Vandy EOD. I think the progression of “threadstate feels like SF3” to joining the Vandy wolf read feels natural/lacking agenda, but not enough to call it particularly clearing.


    Looks Best:
    HolyFlare
    Hornet

    Looks Decent:
    Wiml
    TSF
    Katze

    Looks the Same:
    Boquise
    Pilica

    Looks Worse:
    Thunal
    Soneji
    Gorf
    Finally got through everyone’s SOD work, many many hours later.

    @alexa boss, your notes on p#1161 and p#1501 are good spicy. For a wolf that TMI’d his partners last game, I feasibly would see him finding difficult to enunciate why someone he knows is a wolf to be a villager, right (fact check me on that thought)? Assuming that premise is correct…

    Cross check with my work p#2985. Where he slips that pair down. Just that once.

    I feel like this is big?
    @vanity. @Wiml hellooooo we haven’t talked in a while

    Can you please fact check above with Alexa and I. It’ll require a few mins of reading but tl;dr, Vandy word salads his town read that way twice then as I outline in p#2985, is forced to wolf read that way, only to back out if it.

    Is that just not exactly how you’d expect a wolf who was just (SF2) caught by TMI to act? Like you’re not going to go from calling partners lock wolves to calling them lock villagers in one forum game? And he was under pressure where I outline in 2985…
    p#1240 is interesting in that I'm pretty confident that Vandy was townreading all of his partners who has posted at that point in time. Interestingly, only Thunal is a potential partner in his strong towns.
    HolyFlare
    TSF - p#153 (stands out like the hot take celtic is town post he made in sf2) p#168
    Katze
    Boquise - p#208 (shade) p#253 (rolls it back)
    Thunal
    Soneji
    Gorf
    alexa - p#411

    then p#432 happens

    alexa- lean town
    Boquise-null
    Gorf-null
    Holyflare- null leaning town
    Hornet-null
    JohnCarter- leaning town
    katze-leaning town
    Pilica-null
    Soneji-null
    The Sun Fan-leaning town
    Thunal33- town
    vanity- town
    Wiml- leaning scum
    Wisdom-null
    Reads that don't match things he posted are bolded.

    HolyFlare - p#697
    TSF - p#449 p#1234
    Katze - p#649
    Boquise - p#649
    Thunal - p#1157
    Soneji - p#1161 (feels extremely forced))
    Gorf - p#649
    alexa

    Then p#1240 happens
    Updated Reads list in order. AMA

    Town:
    Vanity
    Wisdom
    Katze

    Town Leans:
    Thunal
    Alexa
    TSF
    HF
    Soneji
    Gorf


    Null Leaning Town
    Boq

    True Null
    Pilica

    Scum Leans
    Wiml
    Hornet
    JC
    Bolded are the ones only mentioned in p#649

    Not sure this was worth the time to do but I did it anyway. I think in general Vandy is the sort of person to talk about his partners a lot and I'd be surprised at multiple wolves in Pilica/Gorf/kat just from that (Pilica specifically because I think if one of his partners were inactive he would go out of his way to mention the other).

    I think TSF/Thunal/maybe Boq look worse from this so far.


    Don't think p#1240 specifically is a good look for kat but I think that p#1123 p#1127 are perhaps lightly leaning in that direction? p#1171 came 65 seconds after kat's fakeclaim was dropped which was 15 seconds before the next person did (vanity). No huge conclusion from that but was checking Vandy didn't spew anything from timestamps. p#1246 I think spews kat town.

    Just noticed p#2047 and I think it spews Holy town pretty hard as well. Goes from wordlessly townreading him to having him bottom three as a buffer before Thunal/TSF/Gorf/Soneji/Boq (AKA: exactly where the wolves are)

    And yeah, Vandy is clearly struggling to explain his Soneji read and clearly reluctant to scumread Boq without ever being able to explain that in his ISO so I think TSF/Soneji/Boq/Thunal are the people I think look worse here.

    Hornet pretty open and shut town. Holy and katze looking better for it.

    I want to add that a lot of the reasons vandy uses to townread alexa are also big stretches but he doesn't seem to white knight her like he did with TSF and Soneji at points.

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    oh and I think alexa is spewed town as well ^

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    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#1330)
    is vandy’s worldview that hornet/wiml/jc are all wolves or something? i guess that doesn’t sound completely ridiculous but he’s acting like wiml casing hornet changes nothing for him, and that just reeks of gross conf bias.
    just saw this: no it reeks of a wolf pushing 3 villagers and refusing to back off one when they're clearly unaligned vanity

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    ironically I think vanity's post of all of them is theone that most blatantly demonstrates that vandy was mega agendapushing me

  43. ISO #3243
    Soul Reader Gorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#3230)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorf (#3091)
    Your content is pathetically barebones at worst, strechable-to-find-a-real-read at best. But you’re gonna sling dirt at TSF specifically for it because he wolfed with you?
    i mean i didn't think that part was bad though because it was kinda similar to what was bothering me about you, i genuinely feel like it's easier to read people after wolfing with them because you can see how they work and where their head's at so that part didn't bother me
    this got resolved later with pilica but i was talking specifically in the context of pilicas d1 content. i agree with the premise, i just thought it seemed like an unfair notion to hold tsf to. but i get her position better.

  44. ISO #3244
    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    i specifically think Pilica's whole "i could write a better case on myself than TSF gave" then providing an example of that was villagery, like i'm not at a point where i'd move her above stronger reads i have and there are some minor concerns but she's trending way up

    on my to do list today is to review her SF3 to see if i'm still confident

    like when i read it originally there were posts that just stuck out to me as obviously wolfy like her asking levi "can you towncase yourself?" in an awkward way and i'm not getting that vibe here, that's NOT an insult to her wolf game at all and i don't mean it that way, i just feel like her thoughts are more clearly trackable as someone solving

    that said she should not be underestimated

  45. ISO #3245
    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    katze tinfoil theory would be that Vandy makes P#1171 (6:35) then katze tells Vandy to treat her as real which results in him absolutely accepting it by P#1240 (more than an hour later)

    but i feel like the interaction in P#1248 is a decent look for katze regardless

  46. ISO #3246
    Wants It More Holyflare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiml (#3239)
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCarter (#3113)
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCarter (#3108)
    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#2630)
    vandy spew stuff


    Some notes on how Vandy treats partners from Pokemon Mash/SF2 - generally will townread them if they’re being townread but not out of the blue - can sometimes specifically focus on them a fair but (such as with celtic in SF2), not a huge busser

    Hornet therefore comes off looking really good. HF is also just hard town for starting the initial push on Vandy anyway.

    P#148 feels like a decent-ish look for Wiml - Vandy is trying to discredit Wiml right away
    P#208 also feels unpartnered with Boq (in addition to how Boq acted in response)
    P#411 is kinda meh for TSF. I mentioned this before, but it’s like the type of TMI read that could make Vandy/TSF W/W, because Vandy is townreading me for voting TSF, even though realistically a vote shouldn’t say anything about my alignment without knowing TSF’s.
    P#449 is a decent look for TSF though, feels pockety
    P#1157 is kinda weird that Vandy specifically points out that Thunal’s read on him was weird when multiple people made the read that Vandy was towny for his approach to buckets, so a (-) point against Thunal, and P#1159 is kinda flailing his way out of it - then it’s weird Vandy still sticks Thunal top of reads in P#1240
    P#1161 is kind of iffy for Soneji, the read is kind of both specific and not thought-out, like I’m not really following the logic in it but it’s almost like he’s forcing himself to come to a conclusion (but notably, it’s definitely not Soneji/Wiml pair from this)
    P#1199 just straight up spewing Hornet town
    P#1240 Vandy builds worlds/accepts katze as a confirmed villager at this point which I think is a good look for katze
    P#1267 is probably enough to negate the earlier potential TMI bit between TSF/Vandy, because Vandy calls my progression on TSF good when i end up townreading TSF.
    P#1334 is interesting. First thought is just that it means there’s not scum there, but it also could be TMI so i guess it just winds into null. More posting this to see what other people think or if it could indicate anything.
    P#1501 could definitely be partnered with Soneji, the way he defends him here is kinda awkward
    P#1529 + for Hornet

    At this point i’d kinda regard Vandy as moving more into anti-spew and treat his posts less seriously.

    Looks good from Vandy spew: HF, Hornet, Wiml, katze(?), TSF(?)
    Looks worse from Vandy spew: Soneji, Thunal



    how people treated vandy

    How I’d expect wolves to treat Vandy: Kinda depends if Vandy is RBer or not, assuming now I would expect them to kind of go with thread temperature - which would mean switching/shifting into a bus when the thread temperature after vanity/Wisdom cleared themselves but townreading him early. If he’s RB i would expect more protection, but going to assume the former is the scenario.

    Hornet:
    P#1308 is really side-eyeing Vandy. P#1315 votes him. P#1316 emotional about it, feels like Vandy is ignoring his solving to nitpick and misrepresent him. P#1322 getting generally very frustrated over that, probes me P#1326 on what I think about Vandy misrepping him. P#1352 Vandy is his main confident scumspect. P#2278 expresses some concerns on stagnant wagon. P#2487 thinks Vandy is a wolf but EOD is making him nervous.

    Conclusion: Hornet pushed on Vandy from early after I pretty intense emotional exchange and still tried to engage with him and expressed doubt EOD in a way that showed a clear lack of TMI. Hornet is extremely unlikely to be partnered/to have bussed Vandy.

    HF:
    P#390 first vote on Vandy. P#496 explains Vandy read and how he finds Vandy different from quals. I give HF points for really shifting the momentum against Vandy. P#1151 wants Thunal to rethink her Vandy townread. P#1209 presents him with some really probing questions that look like he’s trying to engage/solve him. P#1229 moved Vandy above TSF and Wiml. P#1348 still dislikes Vandy’s this is outing comment however. P#1362 starts to go into some Vandy meta. P#1641 still trying to engage with Vandy. P#1820 still probing Vandy. P#2231 still finding Vandy’s reads wolfy.

    Conclusion: HF started the push against Vandy and still represented a very consistent desire to engage with Vandy, read was not stagnant at all, HF is very unlikely to have bussed Vandy.

    TSF:
    P#63 is almost positive Vandy is town. P#79 reiterates it, says he’s unlikely to change his Vandy read today. Continues to defend Vandy as the momentum shifts against him slightly, P#561. P#1058 is going to dive into Vandy’s SF game, and wants people to sheep his read on Vandy based on what he comes out with. P#1116 ends up saying he still thinks Vandy is town but is not as certain as he thought after reading Vandy’s semis game. (I think this in general is a very villagery approach to Vandy and looks like he’s actually trying to solve Vandy’s alignment). P#1139 still thinks Vandy’s town, isn’t going to change his mind. But P#1436 does call something about the way Vandy talks as slightly wolfy. P#1457 still has Vandy high in his reads however. P#1733 still strongly townreading Vandy. P#2587 “Vandy please be a villager.”

    Conclusion: TSF’s treatment of Vandy is decent. He pretty consistently has him as town, but seems to at least minorly re-val Vandy at some point. I think as a wolf he doesn’t really have a need to defend Vandy the way he did, but I wouldn’t completely outrule that he takes the approach to show internal consistently. Slightly unlikely to be paired with Vandy.

    Soneji:
    P#696 outs a slight townlean on tone on Vandy, says certain posts are a good look for Vandy. P#859 hedges slightly on the Vandy read, but still calls it towny. P#1649 finds Thunal’s treatment of Vandy partnered in general, would move Thunal to a strong wolf read if Vandy flips wolf. P#1695 says the Vandy wagon is fine but votes elsewhere.

    Conclusion: There’s nothing distinctly unpairing Vandy/Soneji, and even could argue if Thunal’s V, Soneji kind of sets up after realizing Vandy is dying that day.

    Katze:
    P#323 kind of aggressive with Vandy in immediate interaction. P#327 ends up outing a V read on Vandy. P#584, continues to say Vandy looks better than SF2. P#1061 has Vandy in list of village-leans. P#1084 hedges slightly on Vandy read but explains why she still likes him. P#1263 Katze expresses confusion on Vandy agreeing with Hornet’s take with JC. P#1378 Katze’s read on Vandy shifts pretty dramatically (there is some slight buildup i suppose but i would tinfoil this as being a potential ‘w/w where katze changed her read on Vandy once thread temperature shifted against him’). I do kinda stand by the sort of aggressive way katze’s treating Vandy as unpartnered outside of that and it’s why I’d marked it that way on my chart. P#1720 sticks up for Vandy wagon when it’s tied with TSF which I’d give slight town points to.
    P#2469 feels like Thunal could be a wolf TMIing Vandy/Hornet V/V - this is pretty good from katze as it distinctly lacks agenda.

    Conclusion: I would slightly tinfoil here as my original theory about how wolves would treat Vandy could apply to katze in the way she shifts her Vandy read when momentum turns against Vandy, but I think as a whole her treatment of Vandy is slightly unpartnered.

    Gorf:
    P#410 Gorf is null on Vandy right away and thinks the bucket stance is NAI. Consistently has Vandy low on reads’ list. P#545 similar take to me on Vandy not being villagery for bucket stance. P#1160 questions Vandy on why people townreading him over something NAI didn’t bother him earlier. P#1562 calls out some wolf saltyness from Vandy. P#1788 repeats a comment is a bad look for Vandy. P#2496 really thinks Vandy is a hit.

    Conclusion - I think Gorf is probably on the higher likelihood of being a buss candidate. He seems to not really waver on his Vandy read and doesn’t have many direct interactions with Vandy, but pushes it without expressing doubt even as others’ wavered EOD. I give him some points for having a similar early view to me on the bucket thing from Vandy not being towny, but there’s nothing really stopping this from being a buss.

    Wiml:
    P#40 “Vandy you’ve pocketed me again.” Awkward could be W/W. P#69 reiterates village read. P#260 compares Vandy to SF2 (as a townread). Continuing to want to look for something clearing for Vandy to towncase him. P#371 calls a post hard town for Vandy. P#388 repeats how towny Vandy has been. P#617 says Vandy doesn’t have a wolf motivation for pushing bucket but also mentions that he’s overwhelmed by Vandy’s other posting indicating the point in which his read trends down a bit. P#618 still townreads Vandy though due to his entrance - slight tinfoil of this being planned? P#622 still towncasing Vandy. P#876 takes Vandy out of top villagers but says he tentatively may be there. P#1644 trying to engage with Vandy, ‘doesn’t quite want to give up on finding him if he’s a villager.’ P#1724 wanting to flip this over TSF despite Wiml’s earlier read on Vandy is slight town points if TSF is V. P#1745 dislikes Vandy’s lack of response to his attempt to engage, follows up on the question. P#2116 still trying to engage with Vandy. P#2118 really wants Vandy to give him something to work with.

    Conclusion - Initial thought is that Wiml towncasing Vandy (especially after SF2) is very partnery behavior, however, I think the way Wiml’s read on Vandy progressed throughout the day in addition to the way Wiml was trying to engage with Vandy at EOD is less partnered. I think in all he’s unlikely to be with Vandy.

    Boq:
    If P#40 isn’t w/w, P#50 could potentially be Boq setting up on Wiml (don’t think this is ever W/W/W with Vandy/Boq/Wiml though)
    P#573 Boq townreads Vandy for shading him. P#703 reiterates it. P#1534 doesn’t think Vandy’s questioning of hornet is bad. P#1672 nothing strikingly scummy in Vandy ISO. P#1804 votes Vandy as he’s more likely to be able to solve TSF the next day.

    Conclusion - Nothing really stopping Boq from being W/W with Vandy. His treatment of Vandy is fine but nothing particularly clearing.

    Thunal:
    P#223 has Vandy slightly below null, considering it a “wait and see” read. In P#250 ends up feeling better about Vandy and TRing him. P#340 discussing how she approaches her Vandy notes with me and how he is as town/mafia early. P#817, still has Vandy at top of reads’ list. P#1107 still has Vandy as strongly town. P#1150 is still fairly confident Vandy is town. P#1184 mentions that she’s reading Vandy’s SF2 and agrees with TSF that it’s not the slamdunk she thought it was. P#1370 waffles on the Vandy V read, isn’t as comfortable with him but also feels like he’s an easy answer. P#1572 ends up shifting and voting Vandy. P#1394 wants Vandy over Pilica, P#1986 thinks it’s possible Vandy is a wolf for not posting.
    P#2053 is uhhh, kind of weird. Want to see how it manifests but I kinda feel like Thunal could be setting up to shade me when I was living in an exact world of Vandy W so feel like I’m obviously not partnered with him, plus in general it just looks like she’s setting up to say a lot of people look worse if Vandy is a wolf which feels like a potentially wolfy POE opening.

    Conclusion - In general I find Thunal’s treatment of Vandy iffy. She shifts momentum against Vandy right when thread state is moving against Vandy, and seems to set up a world where a lot of people look worse if Vandy flips wolf at EOD in a way that can be read as expanding the POE.

    Pilica:
    P#2132 feels like Vandy is just the designated elimination, continues to state threadstate feels like SF3 where they chopped a villager EOD.
    P#2355 ISOs Vandy, comes out with a wolfread and ends up supporting the wagon.


    Conclusion - Very very very minor not W/W points for Pilica’s treatment of Vandy EOD. I think the progression of “threadstate feels like SF3” to joining the Vandy wolf read feels natural/lacking agenda, but not enough to call it particularly clearing.


    Looks Best:
    HolyFlare
    Hornet

    Looks Decent:
    Wiml
    TSF
    Katze

    Looks the Same:
    Boquise
    Pilica

    Looks Worse:
    Thunal
    Soneji
    Gorf
    Finally got through everyone’s SOD work, many many hours later.

    @alexa boss, your notes on p#1161 and p#1501 are good spicy. For a wolf that TMI’d his partners last game, I feasibly would see him finding difficult to enunciate why someone he knows is a wolf to be a villager, right (fact check me on that thought)? Assuming that premise is correct…

    Cross check with my work p#2985. Where he slips that pair down. Just that once.

    I feel like this is big?
    @vanity. @Wiml hellooooo we haven’t talked in a while

    Can you please fact check above with Alexa and I. It’ll require a few mins of reading but tl;dr, Vandy word salads his town read that way twice then as I outline in p#2985, is forced to wolf read that way, only to back out if it.

    Is that just not exactly how you’d expect a wolf who was just (SF2) caught by TMI to act? Like you’re not going to go from calling partners lock wolves to calling them lock villagers in one forum game? And he was under pressure where I outline in 2985…
    p#1240 is interesting in that I'm pretty confident that Vandy was townreading all of his partners who has posted at that point in time. Interestingly, only Thunal is a potential partner in his strong towns.
    HolyFlare
    TSF - p#153 (stands out like the hot take celtic is town post he made in sf2) p#168
    Katze
    Boquise - p#208 (shade) p#253 (rolls it back)
    Thunal
    Soneji
    Gorf
    alexa - p#411

    then p#432 happens

    alexa- lean town
    Boquise-null
    Gorf-null
    Holyflare- null leaning town
    Hornet-null
    JohnCarter- leaning town
    katze-leaning town
    Pilica-null
    Soneji-null
    The Sun Fan-leaning town
    Thunal33- town
    vanity- town
    Wiml- leaning scum
    Wisdom-null
    Reads that don't match things he posted are bolded.

    HolyFlare - p#697
    TSF - p#449 p#1234
    Katze - p#649
    Boquise - p#649
    Thunal - p#1157
    Soneji - p#1161 (feels extremely forced))
    Gorf - p#649
    alexa

    Then p#1240 happens
    Updated Reads list in order. AMA

    Town:
    Vanity
    Wisdom
    Katze

    Town Leans:
    Thunal
    Alexa
    TSF
    HF
    Soneji
    Gorf


    Null Leaning Town
    Boq

    True Null
    Pilica

    Scum Leans
    Wiml
    Hornet
    JC
    Bolded are the ones only mentioned in p#649

    Not sure this was worth the time to do but I did it anyway. I think in general Vandy is the sort of person to talk about his partners a lot and I'd be surprised at multiple wolves in Pilica/Gorf/kat just from that (Pilica specifically because I think if one of his partners were inactive he would go out of his way to mention the other).

    I think TSF/Thunal/maybe Boq look worse from this so far.


    Don't think p#1240 specifically is a good look for kat but I think that p#1123 p#1127 are perhaps lightly leaning in that direction? p#1171 came 65 seconds after kat's fakeclaim was dropped which was 15 seconds before the next person did (vanity). No huge conclusion from that but was checking Vandy didn't spew anything from timestamps. p#1246 I think spews kat town.

    Just noticed p#2047 and I think it spews Holy town pretty hard as well. Goes from wordlessly townreading him to having him bottom three as a buffer before Thunal/TSF/Gorf/Soneji/Boq (AKA: exactly where the wolves are)

    And yeah, Vandy is clearly struggling to explain his Soneji read and clearly reluctant to scumread Boq without ever being able to explain that in his ISO so I think TSF/Soneji/Boq/Thunal are the people I think look worse here.

    Hornet pretty open and shut town. Holy and katze looking better for it.

    I want to add that a lot of the reasons vandy uses to townread alexa are also big stretches but he doesn't seem to white knight her like he did with TSF and Soneji at points.
    Why does this look better for me? If anything wouldn't you think it makes me more likely mafia because he'd want to keep a partner nearer 2 town people at the bottom out of the blue for credit?

  47. ISO #3247
    Soul Reader Gorf's Avatar
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    i plan on paying serious mind to the soneji sus later tonight. ive slept + gone to work since i checked out last night, so im pretty much still where i was sod readwise:

    gorf
    jc/vanity

    hornet/hf
    alexa/katze
    boq
    soneji

    wiml/pilica
    thunal
    tsf

  48. ISO #3248
    Galaxy Brain alexa's Avatar
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    there are some points in Vandy spew that generally just look pockety toward TSF. this one is by far the worst though:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandyfan402 (#411)
    Without doing any reading of her meta, I feel like Alexa voting for TSF there is more towny than not. Feels like a towny jump the gun
    because why does Vandy call me towny for voting TSF if TSF is a villager? that makes no sense to me

  49. ISO #3249
    Season 8 Champze katze's Avatar
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    hi, half caught up then i realized i had pings

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#3208)
    @katze how so specifically?
    when i wrote that half of thunals posts today were "i DARE you to townread me" and TSF was actively solving as top wagon and it felt decent

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#3182)
    @katze - you frame Vandy's treatment of me as pockety, but considering Constellations/how Persona slot treated me (and how multiple people acted like that was pockety), does that not potentially draw any similarities in your mind?
    i didnt think about personas treatment of you once and i don't really think it's a super useful metric given my skim of scumchat postgame didnt involve you SCREAMING at them to townread you, they were just powerwolfing

    also the fact you have paranoia in me putting in more effort than usual in the finale is a $%#!ing joke

    and really annoying especially given you also noted that our overnight work had a lot of similarities

  50. ISO #3250
    Wants It More Holyflare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexa (#3248)
    there are some points in Vandy spew that generally just look pockety toward TSF. this one is by far the worst though:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandyfan402 (#411)
    Without doing any reading of her meta, I feel like Alexa voting for TSF there is more towny than not. Feels like a towny jump the gun
    because why does Vandy call me towny for voting TSF if TSF is a villager? that makes no sense to me
    Because you're jumping the gun and eliminating them in the wrong order.

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